graduated from south dakota state university and the university of south dakota law school. a bannock county state attorney and prosecuted hundreds of felony cases. chief deputythe attorney general for south dakota. south elected to the dakota attorney general. he is served as a circuit judge in the second judicial circuit. the 24/7g created sobriety program you will hear about today. it is a zero tolerance program for alcohol abusing offenders that gives them a chance to dry out and walk right without going to prison. been recognized as being effective and efficient and humane. it was awarded and innovations award. the institute for behavioral health awarded the john p mcgovern award in 2009.

the traffic safety administration gave at the lifesavers award in 2010 and the justice department gave judge long an award in 2013. alm.s left is stephen he is a judge in hawaii. he was the attorney for the district of hawaii. he took the bench in 2001 and has been a circuit judge in honolulu ever sense. a he has established the hope program as a means of using probation and drug testing and the imposition of certain punishments as a means of deterring illegal drug use and crime. he runs both the hope and add hope programs for why. like the 24/7 the program, the hope row graham has received numerous awards.

the specialeceived merit citation. 2009, he received the mcgovern award. 2013, the kennedy school of government named it one of the top 25 innovations in government. he received an, award and is here now only after receiving that and will be able to tell you about that in this program. dr. robert l dupont. he is the director of unity services for the district of columbia department of corrections. , he273 -- 1970 273

became the second white house drug chief. that is now known as the drug czar. he left the government in 1978 to found the institute for behavior and health, a nonprofit policy development organization that devoted to the reduction of drug use. he is a clinical professor of psychiatry at the georgetown university school of medicine leading president of a employee assistance provider. he has devoted his career to an analysis of the link between addiction and corrections and the creation of opportunities to reduce drug and alcohol abuse. them aoin me in giving

hand as well is listening to what each of them has to say. veryone will talk about important public policies and how we can do them. thank you. [applause] >> good morning. i am larry long. the justiceota, system is fueled by alcohol and repeat offenders. 2010, 37% of felony convictions for drunk driving. felony drug driver in south dakota has accumulated at least three dui conventions in a ten-year. is bent to the system twice and been convicted 40 he gets his third offense and makes it to a felony level.

that is a repeat offender by any measure. after i was elected attorney theral and took office, governor asked me to serve on a workgroup to tackle the increasing risen population. proposed andand alcohol testing program i had used 20 years in bennett county, i was thed where state attorney for 18 years. the 24/7osal became sobriety project. the original goal of the crown checked was to keep the defendant sober 24 hours a day, seven days a week. as we started experimenting with groupogram, our target

was repeat offenders. that was anybody who had a prior conviction in the previous 10 years. the tools that we used for that merriment and that tyler were the conditions of pretrial release, bond the conditions. there were five of them. first, that defendant was told he could not consume alcohol at all. oh second, you can't go to a bar . that is anyplace a call was available for purchase and consumption on the premises. the third was you show up with the sheriffs office every morning and every evening and take a breath test so we can verify that you are compliant with condition number one. the fourth condition was if you skip or fail, you will go to jail. the fifth condition was you'll be released the next day and we

will put you back in the system and you'll start over. the design of the system was to operate like an electric fence. the how many of you have touched electric fence? how many of you have touched it a second time? [laughter] it's not more complicated than that. started down the process of putting this program together. we meekly ran into some issues. the first issue is south dakota is a very rural state. some of the people live-far away from the test site. milesad to travel 60 twice a day to comply with the test requirements. we adopted a tool.

a bracelet yous, wear on your leg. it gathers the emissions from your sweat glands and tests them for the presence of our call on an hourly basis. i love them to be tested and not have to travel. them to be tested and not to travel. wereof the participants switching from alcohol to some of the drug in order to maintain their high or whatever and deal with their issues. we implemented a urinalysis testing program as a supplement to the alcohol testing program. those people had to test about twice a week. that identified a third problem. many of the counties are very small.

sheriffs office only has one full-time sheriff and maybe one or two part-time staff. more staffrequires than that. we adopted the drug patch. the feds use this regularly. federal probation uses it a lot. intoopted the drug patch our arsenal of tools to run our program. pilote successful in our the south dakota legislature had approved our program and authorized for use statewide. as it sounds now in south dakota, the 24/7 of bridie project is available for all crimes, not just drunk driving. that reflects the reality that there are lots of crimes that

are alcohol related to have nothing to do with drunk driving. those people are good candidates for the system. available at bond level. if it is also available for judges to use postconviction as a condition of a suspended sentence. it is available to the parole board of so the parole board can release individuals under supervised release for alcohol and drug use as a condition of being discharged from the penitentiary. is, are we doing any good? >> i will call your attention to the first slide. it may be difficult to read. we have been doing twice a day testing sense 2005. been over 34,000 participants in south dakota. they have been tested 7.1

million times. rate for that group is meant 9.2%. for every 100 tests that are performed, over 99 times the person shows up on time and blows a clean test. implementedis was in 2007, there've been 4000 participants. they are tested twice a week. that passing rate is 96%. the drug patch is not used widely. we have had 200 city five participants. two -- 82%. rate is these stats are for the bracelet

and ignition interlock we have recently implemented. this bracelet in effect in 2006. there been 7000 people who have worn the bracelet and they have worn it for one million days. the individuals there had been fully compliant. , they have been fully compliant. tampers and noo confirmed drinking events. the ignition interlock is a device we recently put in. there is a mistake in my slide. effects actually put in

in 2012. participants have a success rate of 95%. we have doneterm, some good. in the long-term we have some -- done some good in as well. we have done some recidivism. or define recidivism as the length of time from become cliché and the 24/7 sobriety program to the next arrest for dui. the participants are individuals who were convicted of second or third duis. at all levels for all participants, there was a 50% rear rest ratee for participants of the 20 47

program. -- .47 program. -- tony 47 program. 4/7 program. my favorite slide. these are alcohol related traffic fatalities in south dakota from 2000 through 2013. charts, theat the bars in red represent the five years before we implemented the program. the average death rate annually was 83. , that hase years dropped to 55.3.

there are a lot of reasons for that. there are a lot of reasons for that. betterwear our seatbelts than we used to. i am sure there are other factors. but i think that the 24/7 program is part of that equation. day for2200 people a alcohol consumption. i am confident that that has nothing in terms of reducing traffic does in south dakota. so, thank you. [applause] >> good morning, everybody. i am a judge. i was a career prosecutor. the only state where the defenses through the defense.

i was the first prosecutor on the circuit court bench. i ate lunch alone a lot. then, i was the united states attorney. i bring that up, because starting something like hope is a challenge. being a career prosecutor gave me the credibility to do it. felony probation, we had 8000 people on felony probation on oahu. lots of problems. the system itself is broken. at sentencing, a judge would read all of these provisions. community supervision -- the judge will say no alcohol, no drugs. some people will do fine on that. many people will fail. when they fail, they have two choices. work with the person and

encourage them, threaten them, cajole them. you understand this is a violation, yes. if this keeps up, you might go back and get years in prison. the person leaves the office understanding that this is not serious. i will keep getting high and do it until something stops me. the probation officer's choice is either talking to them and writing up the violation, coming back to court and asking me to give them 5-10 years in prison. it is call or nothing. send them to prison or some them to the beach. this is not on probation officers. they don't have the tools. the first week on the felony trial calendar, i looked at this with 20 violations. the appeal was given up. i spent time documenting all the violations, got the person and

brought them back. recommended sending them to prison for 5-10 years. what a crazy way to try to change anyone's behavior. i thought this does not work. i thought about how my wife and i had raised her son. parents tell you what the family roles are. if there is misbehavior, something happens immediately. it does not have to be severe, but it has to be swift and a has to be certain. doing your kids learn to tie together bad behavior with consequences. that was the simple idea behind this. this is june 2004. we kicked off the program in october 2004. if you test positive, you are arrested on the spot. we go to jail and have a hearing two days later. i probably let them out because they came knowing that they had that. they have to call a random drug test topline. every weekday, they have to call

this hotline. their color comes up once or twice a week. drug courts are great. they can be very effective with whatever population there working with. often work with a lower risk population. we have now shifted to a high risk population. you see them every week. you see how they are doing. i only see them when they are violent. i am able to supervise a large number of people. this program started october 1, 2004 with 34 offenders. i told them at the first hearing that everyone wants you to succeed on probation. the taxpayers want you to succeed. it is $45,000 per year to lock you up. whether you get there is up to you. you control yourself. i'll bust someone put a gun to

your head, no one can make you do it. i said i can control what i'm going to do. in the future, you're likely to go to present if there are any violations of probation. so, you can look at hopeprobation.org. docs started a website to explain. we want you to be successful. we are all human beings, we can make mistakes. the sanctions will be very short. if you don't show up at all, law enforcement folks have to look for you. it will be at least 30 days. you will make your own choices. law schools talk about procedural justice. it usually does not happen. the system is not set up for that. the more due process there will be. the longer it takes for anything to happen.

hope probation is swift, certain, insistent, and proportionate. we're convinced that one of the chief reasons it works is we are treating people fairly. we're treating them like adults. so, i thought at the beginning it just made sense. let's target the toughest population. hope is not a boutique court. it is a strategy german organization. we said, let's get the people most likely to fail. sex offenders, domestic violence offenders. that is what we want to focus on. we want theviolent, probation officers to refer to these cases. we focus on the highest risk. we started with no extra funding. we did not have anybody who is smarter or harder. i have the marshall to use his task force for this program.

if you don't show up for a drug test, i will issue a warrant. if you show up and admit to it, you get dirty days. we try to shape behavior. some of these folks are knuckleheads. go to jail every violation. the truly violent and dangerous should be sent to prison for sentencing. no probation system as an alternative to that. i was the toughest sentence or in the building. i have that credibility to start with. that is a minority. 20-30% of people should be sent to prison. 70% should be supervised in the community. if you do that right, you can save taxpayer dollars, and you can reduce crime. that is what we do. we started with 30 offenders. they gave us $1.2 million in the legislature.

the attorney general was showing the people were testing positive 80% less often. that a result. when they gave us the money, we used most of it for drug treatment. of guyse is an old joke out of town with a briefcase. we keep statistics. dr. angela hopkins got a grant --for ae randomized study. identify 500 people with drug problems. 2/3 of the people were put in this program. there was a name by then. we had a lot of entries. one of the earliest was yanked and spank. my 15-year-old son says bail and jail. somebody suggested hawaii's operation with enforcement.

great acronym. crime,y crime, drug 16-17 prior arrests. one year later, she looked at the results. half as likely to be arrested for a new crime. half as likely to be revoked. fewer positive drug tests. half as many people were sent to prison for years. that is a system that is clear, it is transparent, it lays it all out. one of the fascinating things we've discovered is that most people can stop using drugs without treatment. judge long has found the same thing in south dakota. if they know there is going to be a consequence every single time, most people make the decision not to use. if so, that saves the treatment

beds or slots for people who cannot stop on their own. this is a chart that dr. hawkins did. the study group was to hundred 40 people. they were identified because they were active drug users. meth. the test for for 60% did not have a positive test in the first year. another 28% had one. most of these folks are not in treatment. if they want to go to treatment, we will use our money. if they want to go to treatment, we will help them. if they can stop on their own, i give them a chance to do that. if they can do that, they do not have to get a reference. they do not have to get an assessment and they do not have to go to treatment. if they have used a couple times, i will say it looks like you're having trouble. then, they say yes, i have to go

treatment. they will be more honest in their assessment about how often they use. when they're in treatment, they will persevere because they know they will get arrested if they leave. when people hear about hope, they say that that is a program in jail. jail is a part of it. the offenders know this -- a fewbasic sanctions are days if you it that it. if you deny it, then we have to send it out to the lab. you are wasting everybody's time. you will get 50 days. hopepeople will fail at and go to prison. many will be successful. changes really hard. this is not easy. there are now 18 states. about 60 courtrooms. washington state has put its entire high risk into their version of hope.

situations that drug testing is hugely important. we have drug testers come in the morning. a drug test can get one. we have one young lady who tried to substitute in the past. she got caught and i gave her 30 days in jail. i said you'll have to find new friends because your other sample was 30 too. what can you do? anyway, because i only see them when they violate, i only supervise 1900 felons of the program. every sex offender i have seen, if they are not in jail, they are in hope. we want them staying away from victims. we want them following through geographically and otherwise. i'm thrilled to be here. i look forward to any questions. when you have a system that reduces victimization and crime,

it helps offenders and their families. this is what we are in the business for. thank you very much. [applause] i am just very pleased to be here. ,he me start by thanking paul who has made this possible and heritage. this is a tremendous opportunity to present some very exciting ideas. to heritagenkful for making this possible. i began my career 46 years ago, a few blocks from here, after i had finished at harvard medical school and the national institute of health. i decided i wanted to commit my career to helping people in prison, because i had worked with them in my residency and i cared about those people. so, i went to work for the d.c. department of corrections.

that office is a few blocks from here. in that context, i discovered the relationship between heroin addiction and crime in the city. and i became quite involved in drug abuse treatment. but, i have kept my focus on the concern that i had 46 years ago. i want to tell you what we're talking about today is the best new idea in 456 years, that i have seen. this is history. this is very important, what we're talking about. this is not just another clever idea. this is something scalable and profoundly important. and, i want to talk more about that. i want to talk about innovation. so you can think about what you are seeing and what you're hearing. i said to paul -- or to steve na larry.

they did not know any experts in the field. i said you have to listen to them. they came from the experience of working with the offenders without expertise, both of them. i say to them, think i do did not know any experts like me. you never would have done this. never. i would not have advised it. and neither would any of the other experts. that did not happen. they came up from their experience. they had a problem. they had new ideas about what to do. that is one lesson. the second lesson is even more important. because lots of people have good ideas. what you are looking at is two men who have devoted their lives for a decade to the development of this idea and it spread ing.

the charisma that they have, the ideas that they have, the ability to get institutions involved, is very precious. and what we have here today is to people who have covered this new idea and have devoted themselves to it and have come here today to talk about it. when i left the government, founded with my wife, our own job was to find new ideas related to drug use. this is our number one priority. that is how important it is. i want to talk about what it is that makes us special. it may not be so obvious to you. one thing is the focus on drugs and alcohol is the absolute commitment to no use. that is rare. people talk about that. most drug treatment programs

have continued drug use routinely in the treatment programs. the idea that you would set that up as a standard -- that is unusual. that is what this is. that is one thing that is important. the other is the use of technology. they are talking about use of a rapidly developing technology to identify drug use, and to bring that with and what they are doing. that also is very striking in terms of less. -- this. the most stunning is the concept that drug addict and alcoholic's can change their behavior without youse -- with immediate consequences that are predictable. no expert would say that, would applaud that. they have demonstrated that it is true.

with respect to the treatment -- one of the things i would say is that i have a lot of experience with it. the most likely thing is that he does not go. if you do not go, you most likely drop out. if he does finish, the most likely thing is he will relapse. that is reality. they are making treatment work. then to see the people who go to these treatments -- they go there. they finished the programs. they don't use, they listen. the context, what they have put together, there is no entirely different kind of experience. swift, certain, moderate kind of sanctions makes a tremendous difference in the behavior and sets a model that

is very important. -- ioing to end with started with the criminal justice system. my commitment is that around drug and alcohol use -- i want to call this the new paradigm. it is not just treatment. it is the managing of the care of the substances. there is another example that we have been studying. this model, in an entirely different population -- that is the nation's physicians. can you think of a good than convicteder felons, then practicing physicians? what happens to them when they have a drug or alcohol problem? they go into a state program. all of the states involved mandatory random testing for 5

years. any use -- any use about the hall or drugs in the five years, and they are taken out of their practice. any use for five years. all of them. that has set the standard for a good long-term outcome. in the five years of study, we found 70% of the doctors with random testing. every day, they have to check. they have to go in. 78% had not a single positive test for alcohol abuse. of the 22% who had any positive test, 2/3 never had a second positive test. these are drug addicts and alcoholics positions. -- physicians. that is stunning. given how proud i am to be here

at heritage, how grateful i am for the leadership of these two men, and how excited i am for the potential was in the criminal justice system. to reach 5 million people on probation and parole. this is a scalable, affordable idea we're talking about. that is very exciting. thank you. [applause] before i ask any questions, i want to give the judges an opportunity to say anything they want about what anyone also set? said.e has >> the doctor has been a great supporter of this from the beginning. just like nij. the practitioners in the field get this. they know what does not work. when they hear about some of that seems logical, they get into it right away.

judge long and i did not know about each other. there are a lot of similarities in the program. i was thrilled. i work with the folks back home to try to get 24/7 started. he has worked to get home started into the coda. >> let me ask judge long -- what would you say in response to someone who would claim that this program is being soft on crime? that the better way of dealing with them is sending them to prison? >> well -- my experience with the public is, the public is not particularly offended by people on probation. peoplere offended by his on probation that they perceive are not being supervised or accountable. and, my program, holds them accountable. the feedback that i get from the family says, everytime i have spoken about hope -- 24/7, family members

come up to me and say gosh, larry, i was to program had been around when my husband was tricking or my down or my brother or my son. or, in some variation of you saved my child's life. i have never apologize to anybody for the way we structure this program. and, we trade jail time for sobriety. i think that is a fair trade. if we can elect to drink, we can put them in jail. everybody wins. program to been a try to reduce crime, reduce substance abuse. it is not a right or left kind of thing. so, we have never tried political parties. nationally, the conservatives have an easier time embracing it, like the right on crimbe

group. they have been seen as tough on crime, so they can be more creative. this sounds like it is soft on crime. you test positive for drugs, david three days in jail. but they do not realize is in a normal system, there is no consequence. when people know the system, they instantly get it. not only is it a consequence, but the consequence every single time. people will learn from it. he really is harder than usual. but, the public does not know anything about any of this. as judge long said, they want results. they want consequences. they're all in favor of it. >> the me ask paul about that. theof the problems within criminal justice system is concerned about this aggressive testing. it will fill the prisons. the biggest sales problem that

these two generals have was this aggressive testing. people in the criminal justice system say we have so many failures now, you will triple our failure rate. and, interesting and important finding is exactly the opposite. because of the change of behavior that goes on. >> let me ask you a question. is there concern that in many of the justice systems, the system itself has become the mental health system's last resort? how do you deal with that problem, if and when it is true, by using this program? can i be used in that circumstance? -- can it be used in that circumstance? >> i am committed to mental health. i have a practice of my own. i am concerned also about mental illness and its treatment. one of the biggest problems with

the seriously mentally ill is just like with the drug addicts. it is compliance with treatment. that is a huge problem. and, i use the term therapeutic jurisprudence. i'm using the criminal justice system to achieve health outcomes for people who you cannot do that with without the criminal justice system. that leverage makes a difference in compliance with treatment and taking the medicine. so, i see this as a model of positive mental health. and i would like to see them be developed much more actively. this is the way to go and it will work just as well with mental health issues as it does with substance abuse. >> and the latest translates in court is -- you may have a chemical imbalance. if a mental health professional want to to take your meds, this

is not burger king. we do not do this your way. you will have to follow rules. part of the rules is taking meds. i you do not take your meds, will put you in jail. then everything else in their life is better. the most serious mental health issues -- that is a real problem for people to deal with. no program is perfect. 24/7, are they better than the current system? i am convinced that they do. diagnueled those notes -- ose clients. >> and see the therapist too. let me ask a question for the whole panel. in other states? or is there something particularly her about saouth hawaii?nd

>> 24/7 is operational in south dakota. it is operational in north dakota. and it is operational in montana. there are pilot projects that are part of the various stages of development. i think in 10-12 other states. there is a pellet project going on in london. i have been trying to get a free plane ticket to go to london. have not pulled off yet, but i am still trying. had this discussion with some of the folks from ntsa, several times. and, there is a concern that south dakota is a rural program. it works in top dakota and north dakota and montana. they are large world states. -- rural states.

but, my advice to anybody is, try it. small, pick a small area in a big city. steve you can make it work. there will be problems you will run into that i have not thought of. if you simply run into the problems and decide you're going to fix them, it works. that is how we started the 24/7 program. when you were -- there would be problems, we just did not know when. we found the scram bracelet, which plug the hole. you can deal with it if you can be committed to getting the system and making it work. but -- philosophy. that is the philosophy we started with and it works. >> where there is a will, there's a way. some places think we are aren't you doing that. you say ok, you are.

when is an expedited hearing? is the person in custody? no, you're not doing this. it has to be on the spot. i would echo -- start small. get the moving parts in place. call us. i travel once or twice a month to explain this. including london, couple of months ago. first.arted 24/7 they have a huge problem with binge drinking, fighting, and the like. we will try. felonyly with the population. guys stabbing each other, fighting each other. hol is replete with that. if people start small and get their ducks in a row, we are

convinced that human nature is going to be consistent. when we started this, people said it would never work. bu, they can do time standing on their heads. i said they can when they have to. they do not want to do it today. so, i would be willing to bet that human nature is more similar than dissimilar. i see them doing this in indiana. it is called hoosier opportunit y. where there is will, there's way. when i started, everybody thought i was crazy. the only think i knew was that i had done this and been accounted 20 years before. i grew up in a community. i was putting my classmates from high school in custody. i knew these people when they were sober. after 60 days of sobriety, you could tell from looking at them

that they had quit drinking. their color change. if you have noted alcoholic and you have seen them quit, you can tell by looking at them that they have. this, iirst launched literally begged and graveled. i was the attorney general. , had a couple of old friends one of whom was a recovering alcoholic. they did this for only one reason. it was because i was the attorney general and they thought it was prudent to humor me. the thing would fall flat on its face and then they would say we gave it a try. that is the commitment that you have to make. you just have to find someone who is as committed as you are. if you find that person, you can get it off the ground. let me ask one more question. if you could answer this first

-- what is the proper role for the federal government? >> i think facilitating the spread of the site the a. i think they're already doing a lot. i think there is room for the private sector. you are taking a lead in this. i should mention that i have been in this a long time. right now is a remarkable moment in history. today,ul introduced this he talked about the heritage program to reduce current -- incarceration. very understandable. the countries coming together on the purpose. right and left in all across the political spectrum. in an exciting way.

it is a great time to be interested in corrections. the same thing is happening with drugs. the drug issue is not the center of attention the way it has never been before. that, ipects or more of think. i think there are more opportunities now. just one other thing. that is that the issue about substance abuse problems is lifelong. these programs are relatively short. what happens if people, when they leave, when they are not being supervised? that is the big question to me. it is now while they are supervised. that is dramatic. the big question is, then what? that is an open question. my time in the field, the thing that made a difference is the stability of abstinence and stabilizing lives. and the 12 step

programs of alcoholics anonymous. those are extremely important. and however important that is in maintaining lifelong sobriety. that is the big issue. >> the federal government has been great already with this. it is a bipartisan budget bill. hope is a part of that. is bond during demonstrations. they have been instrumental in getting that done. just talking about programs that work. part of the budget money is setting up technical assistance. and the starting some new sites. what we try to get a site to do is -- i tell them that you have to be the emissaries for this. wendy davis is the one to train the other folks in indiana. they will believe here.

her law enforcement folks can talk to other law enforcement people. the federal government can play a greater role in many ways. the real growth is going to be in the states as they spread the word. the federal government certainly helps me get mine off the ground. the highway traffic safety administration had more faith in me than the judges that i was trying to convince to do this. grant to get my program off the ground in many counties. those sheriffs office is convinced themselves that they needed extra help in order to implement this. i did not have an appropriation. i did not have anybody. instrumentalvery

in getting mine off the ground. also, when we implemented the scram bracelets, they bought 100 bracelets for me. those are $1400 a pop. they have not asked for them back yet. i appreciate that. and also give us a charge. challengeout to be a that work tour benefit. we had to deal with that. i certainly owe them a large thank you. and i think they're helping me, yes. >> let me see if there any questions from the audience. let me ask that you identify yourself and ask a question and get right to the point. the woman back there? >> hi. angeline fraser. two quick questions. one for judge alm.

can you talk a little bit about -- in the beginning, about the folks who are able to get into hope. are they -- is everyone required to do drug testing. even if that is not part of the initial thing? we have also talked about drug courts. we find that a lot of drug courts do not -- they pick the people that they knew would get through the system. there are folks who are not users, they are sellers. people who really need the treatment are not getting that. some of us believe that we bynot sell society's ills putting people who are addicted to drugs in prison. people who have mental illness and present.

i would like you to talk more about that and why you think having that as an option it's a good ring, considering people who do get in the system, who have a no mess, are not getting the treatment they need. people who have an addiction to alcohol. they cannot do it. they do not have the capacity to do it. >> first, i wrote an article for the new york champion magazine. defense lawyers wrote a supportive sidebar, as well as the vice president of the drug policy alliance. we don't add any conditions. if somebody is put on probation in the presentence report -- if there is a connection with drug and alcohol use, that is the condition of probation. that is the way we start. probably 85% of cases have that. if not, we do not add it. they are not on the hotline.

it is whatever the condition is. during that time, if they are smelling of alcohol, then we add it. the second part is -- drug courts can be great. they are often cherry picked. they may have a veto over who goes into it. courte shifted our drug to be for the high risk group. so, in an article on the website -- regular probation at the outpatient clinic -- the drug court should be your icu. people get put into homes. if they cannot stop using, despite going to treatment, that is who we put into the drug court. drug court becomes the last step on the continuum on the right hand side. you get a counselor keeps manager. -- or case manager.

you have to focus on the right population. that is what we're doing now. now, there are 250 people. thing in drug policy the jars mail little wild is to thi nk that the choice in drug policy is prioson. people ask what you are in favor of, treatment or present? i think that is a very false choice. people are in prison because of some criminal behavior that they have had. many of them have mental illness but definitely contributes to their -- or substance abuse, that contributes to criminal behavior. is an opportunity for an intervention and help those people. what i would like to come out of this meeting and this concept is not to choose prison or t reatment, but to say that the goal is to make the two work

together in a way that feels better for those people than either alone. that is what this is about today. way, mrs. theher come of youthat can who are already there. let's find ways to use that. the place to start is not present, but the community. i think this is a model that will work very well in the interest of people with substance abuse disorders. >> sir? >> i am a retired cm in drug policy, about 43 years ago. i don't think i have ever heard a better presentation. i will mention the name of mark ucla, would believe

is one of the original proponents of hope. any comments about his contributions? >> he is a friend to all of us. absolutely. he is here with us today. we would not be here without him. he is the one who got everyone's attention. he got college are still in this field. so, three cheers for mark and his role. >> i had never heard of mark fineman when all this started. we all started looking around the country to see other people talking about this. someone said you have to rebut this guy is writing. he had a paper. it sounded kind of similar to what we were doing. i called him up and i said, that is interesting. we might have this conversation differently today. i called them up in december and said we are up to 93 people. we have 80%. he was thrilled.

he had been talking about this for 20 years, but could not get anybody to pay attention. so, he talked to the national institute of justice at the time. jake horowitz came out to hawaii to check it out. for has been responsible much of the good press that has come around. he knows more people in the press. the wall street journal did the first story because he knew a reporter. margaret came out. i said you are here to see that we are not making these figures up. good for her. >> b echo the kudos. i met him at a conference at yale a few years ago. i was intrigued by his work. sounded to me like it was an effective way to deal with these problems. >> next question? >> yeah, john here at heritage.

you talk about the expedited process. people who fail a drug tests have to appear in court before they are revoked? or does it happen the moment a test comes back? did you face any resistance in programs from prosecutors and probation officers? >> first, it is $3.75. they just send in the cup. it is an instant response. t, we will seal the sample and send it to a lab for tests. they're not take into custody. they're given a court date 10 days later to show up. if they come in, they get 15 days. they are either denying or they are lying. if you ever mess up on saturday night, leave your car at home. do not bring your kids with you. bite the bullet and do the