professor, paul butler. yourways, we will take calls and you can join the conversation on facebook and twitter. "washington journal" is next. ♪ this morning on "the washington journal," a three-hour discussion about race in america. in about an hour we will have some guests out here to continue the discussion, but the first hour is devoted to your phone calls. if you

to discuss race in america, we have a special number for you to dial. host: finally, our fourth line this morning has been set aside for st. louis area residents. 202-585-3883. host: we are going to begin this morning with the editorial from "the st. louis post dispatch" this morning. ferguson -- we earned this." "st. louis earned this moment by not paying attention to immunities dominated by s, becoming then oxygen that fed the flame of protests and concentrated

poverty. in the first editorial that this page wrote on the michael brown case, we noted that the likelihood of conviction in the low.is extremely that remains true. it is the simple reality of most police shootings. but there can be an important conviction, the conviction of ."e city to change here is "the huffington post --se vote this morning, huffington post cut -- huffington post" this morning. "showing support for darren wilson and other police officers. , according to him, "got exactly what he deserved." arnold traveled to the event in .t. louis on saturday

a public unveiling of sorts for pageerek williams support -- darren wilson support page. not all of the dozens gathered at the pub shared sentiments as blunt as arnold's, but they seemed united in the sense that wilson, not brown, is the real victim.-- real the grand jury's considering whether to indict him in his role for the death. supporters expressed sympathy for brown's family but few seemed to think that the dead 18-year-old should the spared the rush to judgment they insist ." happening to officer wilson we begin with a call from dan in massachusetts. dan, first of all, tell us a little bit about yourself. i am 39, acaller:

construction supervisor with a pretty good job. probably not the most racially diverse area. what i see happening is certainly there is a race issue in this country. affluent whites don't want to admit it and blacks are still striving for justice. that report about darren wilson getting all the support is pretty alarming. an 18-year-old unarmed kid was murdered by a police officer who was supposed to be held to a justr standard and it seems really, really out of sorts, out of whack. i'm curious what we do about it and where we go from here. thank you. jack, from providence, rhode island. quickly a bit about yourself, then go ahead and make your comment. caller: i am over 60 years old and am a retired mathematics

teacher. my wife, who happens to be chinese, she made a pretty valid point. her in taiwan. when she came to the united states with me we had to go through a legal process. she has a masters degree in economic. thestarted out with one of major banks as a bank teller. i said to her -- why would you take that job? with your background ash and mark she said that she wanted to show them her value. this was like 15 years ago. right now she is the district manager in the new england region of the united states. she made this point to me. she said to me -- as far as african-americans are concerned, 100 years from now they are still going to be complaining about race problems instead of, you know, taking care of themselves and showing a value. she basically said that we don't

want to study and work overall. there are always exceptions, however, you take a look at the situation in the united states. ask yourself why. rate inst unemployment the united states is not whites, its asians. have a good day, sir. that was jack. christian is calling in on the 30 and underline. he have divided the calling by age on this "washington journal." 49, over 50, 30 to and st. louis area. christian, how old are you? caller: i'm not 30. i don't know where that came from. i am 44. i don't want to give you too

much -- the way that this would get to me, you had all of these caucasians rallying around bundy, a thief who stole millions of dollars from the u.s. government. they had caucasians, sidearms, automatic weapons, they were pointing them at police officers and atf. what happened? you have an 18-year-old young black man who gets shot down ash and mark when you have protesters, black road testers, they weren't carrying sidearms. imagine if we were protesting in ferguson and we had sidearms and automatic weapons on us. do you know what these caucasian cops would do to us? you have these caucasians where it is ok for them to point guns at the atf, at law officials. nothing happens, nothing happens. but now like i said, if you had

black people walking down and protesting with sidearms? are you african-american? what does that have to do with it? why would you ask that question? what is wrong with america? why can't i just voice my opinion? what does that matter? .njustice is injustice this is deplorable. ridiculous. you have caucasians walking around with flags that say don't tread on me. you have black people protesting with nothing, no sidearms, no guns, and you guys beat the shit out of us. host: that was christian, oklahoma city. this is joe, las vegas, 19 years old.

>> the biggest change i have noticed is that my wife lets me do anal. d is calling from huntsville, texas. that if you dove a crime, you do the time. if fact guy hadn't robbed a liquor store, beat up the owner, and him and his buddy run out with booze and cigars and shoving people around and then trying to get the policeman's gun and the policeman chasing him -- he could have gotten him with a taser, sure, but how much do police have to take it for they can shoot? they are afraid to work now. the government did not protect them, just like on the border. host: did you grow up in texas?

and are you white? caller: yes. host: how integrated is your life? caller: i have worked with many colored people and been real good friends with them. but i don't think that is the issue. he was robbing and stealing and trying to grab the policeman's gun. he shouldn't have done that. bring it back, the topic this morning is not necessarily about the specifics -- specifics of the michael brown case, but about what you think about race relations in america today. what do i think about it? i think that when things happen to whites like this, nobody makes a big issue of it. when something happens the blacks, our luther king, everybody comes out and makes a big noise.

i think that -- well, that's what i think. host: thank you for calling in this morning. the lead story in "the new york story" "the lead host: kenneth, biloxi, mississippi, 51 years old. good morning to you. caller: good morning.

yes, i believe that relations have been set act now to appoint i don't think they are ever going to recover. a large part of it is the black population doing it to itself. they cry and complain over everything that happens to them. they have nothing else to do. they begged, they talk, they don't try to do something. just the same old story. my great great grandfather, great great-grandmother, they would get up and do something. don't make yourself look bad. the boy would still be living if you did not go out there to rob a store owner for these cigars that he was going to roll his marijuana in. that is why he is dead today. copommitted a crime, the came up on him, he took it upon

himself to disarm the cop, he got shot, and now race relations are set back. i don't think it'll ever recover. how would you: describe race relations in block c, mississippi? caller: it's pretty rough around here, man. you get the cold shoulder. you can feel it. it's terrible and i don't think it will ever recover. host: are you from mississippi? caller: originally louisiana. host: so, you grew up in the south. caller: yes. host: is it different in the south than other places in the country, do you think? caller: i think it is the same across the board. host: have you ever have you

ever had black friends, black neighbors? caller: plenty. plenty. the older people, we used to get along with the older folks, you know? but now that the younger crowd is coming along, the past couple and theseions so-called leaders that they have it,ey keep fueling instigating it, making a dollar off the black man because they keep antagonizing and i -- and antagonizing. leaders.not really they are detrimental to their own race with what they are doing. mainnk that one of the conspirators of it now is our so-called president obama. he is fueling it himself. that is kenneth, from biloxi, mississippi. jones, -- charlotte

whois toshara jones, writes in "the st. louis post-dispatch" this morning. in the have spoken out past about similar issues, i have been met with the response that you are racist comments that of opening a dialogue to understand my point of view." host: at the end of her op-ed,

she talks about the young citizens council and promotes this website, in case you're tshootmo, as in missouri, .com. charlie, give us your perspective. caller: i am a trade school teacher. i am looking around the world right now. the world is a sick man fire. going these atrocities on, this is a diversion for our attentions. we have bigger fish to fry if we look at the forest and not the tree. racism is here. we have a history of having slaves in the united states and usually don't have to deal with racism, but the world is on fire and we have a great things to worry about an hour internal problems. we are being attacked every which way.

you know, ukraine and russia could turn into a world war. nuclear bombs could be going off and we are worried about this little stuff going on in the united states. that's my opinion. earl, you are on "washington journal" this morning. caller: race relations are horrible. they've never changed. black people in this country will never achieve true independence until we seek our own nation. take two examples, for instance. the clive and monday incident. the right was screaming mad because of the small police presence at his ranch after he lost several court cases and oh the federal government upwards of $1 million. you look at the incident where theater was shot up, a young man killed several people, he was arrested without any incident.

when you talk about racial issues, we are talking about the true double standards in this country. white america seems to think that slavery was some sort of favor to black folks. these people don't even work in the farming industry now, forrmind the jobs of slaves 200 years, perpetuating the lie around the world that christopher columbus discovered america and that they were the hardest working people on the planet. that is untrue. black people worked in this nation and were given nothing. we support israel, billions of dollars per year, yet the black evil in this country cannot even achieve our own nation independently because we don't get the funding. we did not get what we were owed. host: tell us about yourself a little bit. what do you do and when you say

a separate nation, what are you talking about? caller: a sovereign nation the same way that israel was created in 1978. i'm talking about true independence. we will never see -- never receive justice in the united states. these people have no conscience. host: who are these people? caller: the white power inches -- infrastructure. host: how integrated is your life? caller: very integrated. boston,p in massachusetts, lot of white friends, a lot of catholic friends, but they are still part of a culture that has been oppressing lack close -- doc folks for hundreds of years. i'm saying that we can never achieve justice in a nation that has a history of oppression. we have basically been living under apartheid for 400 years. they put a band-aid on it he says they tried to give moral authority around the world.

andr nations have chimed in said -- look at the way that they treat their own people, how can they tell other nations how to interact with democracy and human relations when they treat their own citizens like garbage? host: this is the front page of "the washington post close up -- washington post" this morning. host: if you want to read the

rest of the story, washingtonpost.com. indiana, daniel, 27 years old. go ahead. hello. i agree that the situation is not looking very well, but i believe it is a symptom of the bigger problem, which is a misinformed opinion. we certainly don't have enough information on the case from ferguson to come to the conclusion that everyone jumps to. i suspect that that's a problem with the whole world. just the genetics of the human being. people jumping to conclusions very quickly. i believe that's the primary concern here. host: where is memphis, indiana? caller: close to cincinnati. host: how integrated is the town?

caller: this particular town, not well at all. but i have been working at a very integrated business, about 10% african american. all right, thank you. lou, grand rapids, michigan. also 27. you are on washington journal. what do you think? racism will always exist and continue to be a problem. people just have too many biases. it is all really about upbringing. i am multiracial. i am three races, mexican, indian, and black. i have dealt with racism and it is all about how you are wrought up. if you are open-minded and

always thinking like your grandmother told you -- life is not fair, it is what you make it. if you try and work hard you will get what you want in life, but if you sit there and want something to be given to you or not look at the whole picture in general, then you will have a problem with race. people nowadays never just look at the bigger picture and are ugliness,sgusted with ultimately it will be the problem of a lot of people. don't look at the color of the skin. look at what the person is saying to you. host: what do you do in grand rapids? caller: i used to be a guest services manager for a big company and i recently just started truck driving. host: really? i just have to ask you, is that uncommon, for women to drive semi trucks? is very uncommon. especially for a mother to drive

. i basically have a seven-year-old who is with his father while i am on the road. i get a lot of people time to i'm scared.if i actually love my job. i'm an owner operator. we own three trucks, my fiancée and i. the payfits are great, is great, we get to see and travel the world. from what you have experienced around the country, our race relations different in different parts of the country? caller: safe to say it's very different. i always thought in the south there would be more southern hospitality, but it seems like in the south you deal with more racism. people a really rude to you if they don't necessarily know you. they treat you really differently. treated really different. i would say that in mississippi and the wheezy and i have come across a lot of rude people. throughout michigan, indiana, texas, they had good southern

hospitality, but by looking at me i look lack. but the way that i talk or present myself people are always like -- we know she's not quite hair isecause my different. english is my second language, spanish is my first. people always ask me -- what are you. i was asked them -- why would you ask me what i am? i'm having a general conversation with you. host: what do you think about the president's response to what happened in ferguson? i don't really have an opinion. it is a media reaction. if there was not that much press, would he have really sent anyone to the funeral? i don't have an opinion on the st. louis thing because there are things happening every day, everywhere. been blown out of proportion with them retaliating the way they do. if people would just mind their

business, it probably would have been taken care of a lot easier and faster with everyone else involved into it. just because everyone else is involved does not mean you will have a better outcome in the situation. in grandt is lou rapids. owner operator of three semi trucks. açai become a good morning. good morning. caller: i want to say to a lot white collars, you have a lot of black on black crime and people fighting against what happened to young michael brown. it is unfortunate that the but you havepened, a lot such as my wife is married to a close confidant to will smith. they do a lot of things in the african-american community that don't get publicized.

we marched in 2006 against the violence in philadelphia. they off eric on. they got cnn. a lot of white americans only see and hear what they want to see and hear. he has been doing that for like 25 years. like the jim brown's, they even have a gang program and los angeles for over 40 years. mohamed ali, most death -- mos def, the actor, the actor ice cube, he does a lot. of had a -- you have a lot black men doing things in the community. but a lot of whites only see and hear what they want to see and hear and the white media doesn't cover it because it is positive, they only focus on the negative. thank you for calling in

this morning. this is an op-ed by janine outreach director for freedom works and the author obama is driving americans to the government plantation." "a collection of race hustlers, the event in ferguson is tragic. a police officer's future hangs in the balance in the aftermath of the shooting and there are nightly protests and looting of property on display."

host: little bit from that op-ed this morning in "washington times." , georgia, 42 years old. go ahead. caller: how are you this morning? host: good, how are you? caller: doing fine. just listening to some of these colors it is really disturbing to me. none of us are foolish enough to believe that racism has ended in

overca, that it is all just because a president is biracial or black. you know, but for this one kid you know, there are millions and millions of other black children who wake up everyday and go to school and do exactly what they are supposed to do. my children into the air force. one last year, another is leaving in a few. kids every day doing exactly what they are supposed to do. what i am hearing from these people is that all that they are paying attention to is what happened in ferguson. that that's where their focus is . that's where everyone's anger is. they are all upset, you know? and there is also a generation gap. the older collars tell us that it is horrible, by people do this, why people do that -- it's

all appear and i don't want it. i come from a biracial background. i have been listening. expectationsds of -- i thought that they would be this, they would be that. there was nothing like that. i ran into some knuckleheads. some black, some white, you know? i have lived all over the place. i military. depending on where you live and who you are around and how you,e are and get to know i've met people from all kinds of race everywhere. is a microcosm of a problem in the united states of america, but it could happen anywhere. even the article that you just read, actually, you know, in trying to unveil the truth about al sharpton and everyone else -- i disagree with them. do sensationalize it for

their own use, but in the article they use that example to attack the president. like the president called al sharpton, called someone and said -- let's make race relations bad. i'm going to make this whole nation of hustlers, do this, try to ruin things. the president of the united states? you think that's what he is sitting around doing in his office? it is just misinformation. how we live here in this country, it is like everything on this guy. like he's just responsible for the cloud, the storm -- anything and everything is some kind of reason to tear down somebody. there are lots of good people in this country. lots of good people doing good things in this country. republican, democrat, whoever they are. terrel froms jonesboro, georgia. from "the st. louis post-dispatch," this morning, this is about prosecuting

attorney robert mccullough. host: jamie, san antonio. jamie is -- sorry about that --

60 six years old. you are on "the washington journal." how would you describe race relations in america? caller: that may save his first, i was among one of the first blacks to integrate the schools in atlanta, georgia. 62. i am a vietnam veteran. spent 20 years in the military, 20 years in the civil service. world traveled around the two or three times. i totally and wholeheartedly endorse the comments from the young lady truck driver. and i endorse what the last person said. the problem in america is so many people never left their hometown. they never traveled outside their own bubble. that, bornple like

anything that comes across they will take. you know? it's people like that, the older stuck inhat are still the 30's and 40's and 50's who refuse to change. the younger people are changing. it is those older people that are really stuck in their ways running america. you are 66. --host: do you feel stuck in your ways? caller: no. i have seen different countries, different environments. i know that no one in the world has the same ideas or the same ethics. we learn from our

experience. we are a product of our environment. unless you can expand your knowledge, expand your , and accept people for who they are and not try to going toople, you are have problems. rather it is the sunnis and the shiites, the muslims and the jews, the whites and the blacks, brothers and sisters. you know? it's the way that you were brought up. i was brought up that you don't earn respect.e to you are not given respect, you have to earn it. earning it means being open-minded. you are calling from san antonio, a largely hispanic city. what does that add to the rate is -- race issue in america? caller: it is a largely hispanic

city but also a largely military city where people have traveled and people understand people. the problem is that whites control the government. the texas government. where power stands, that's where the state, the city, the nation stands. people are afraid of losing their jobs if they speak up. so, it is a little bit of fear. little bit of absence of knowledge. like the people that called and accused the sky of stealing, beating up the manager, all this other stuff. it's an absence of knowledge and someone went in and fill that void. that that's the way that they behave because that is the way they believe because of the

environment that they grew up in. is jamie, san antonio. next up is louise, 70, you are on "washington journal." worst of all, tell us a little bit about your life over the last 70 years. i'm 72 years old. i have lived in florida for about 32 years. i think that race relations are like a work in progress. me, jamie,before from texas, had it absolutely right not -- right on. florida is very similar to texas. government is very powerful here, especially white government. my own personal feeling is that too many whites have their head don't sand and if we start empathizing and understanding our fellow americans, how can we have understanding with other cultures and countries? disappointed not to

see more whites more angry when was killed here, not far from where we live. 20 miles away in sanford. hadknow, if trayvon martin been a young, white teenager in a hoodie and zimmerman shot him, they would have arrested him. i have no doubt about that at all. when a kid can be killed like that and we can't empathize and understand? what it is and look at the politics behind it? my dad was a new york city policeman. this is going way back, 60 years ago. he walked a beat. he walked down those neighborhoods. bedford stuyvesant. he never had to pull his gun once.

never once. there were times he was scared. he walked a beat by himself in a patrol car. but you had to talk to people. he had that demeanor about him. that when he moved to florida. he said -- you know? there are a lot of angry cops in the south. they have that attitudes. he said that some of these young kids, these young cops, you give them a fast car and a gun and they become terrible with it. he had a way of putting things a certain way. thank you for taking my call. thank you very much. host: thanks for watching. a couple of more articles from "the st. louis post-dispatch" this morning. "a moderate, two-term governor, a scandal free personal resume with a folksy persona that plays

well in medical -- memo america. his one brief rush with the host: also from a newspaper, "st. louis county police off --

police forces often don't reflect communities." host: the article goes on to say that "police chiefs site various reasons for not keeping up with the change, including a lack of applicants, officers leading are bigger and better jobs in better departments. last week officials said they are looking for better ways. did they include developing programs to track more

african-american police applicants, expanding and enhancing school resource officer programs and creating incentives for police officers who live in the city." a little bit from "the st. louis post-dispatch" this morning. aggie, frederick, maryland. what do you think about race relations? here in america. caller: as far as race relations go, you know i have a lot of things to say, but i won't say everything because of time permitting. but from the standpoint of how i feel at this moment? fear from lot of white folks. i am generalizing, of course. i think that white people's overall sense of them losing quote unquote control of america has really brought a lot of people into an uproar.

that has happened since the election of obama, i think. i know the tea party said that they started before his election, but they really kicked in once they took office and took the presidency. i think a lot of these incidents, as a result of us not understanding each other. i think that white folks don't really understand black folks because they have never had to have to understand. as far as people talking about something like multiculturalism or something like that, in general they are saying like black folks have to deal with it all the time, you guys are the majority in this country. host: as an african american you feel you understand why people? caller: i'm not going to sail like that, but i think we have been forced to be around white folks a lot more than white folks have been forced to be around black folks or any other people.

because of that we can understand them a little better and maybe they can understand us . i'm generalizing, of course, maybe some people don't want to understand the plight of others. i think that is the root of a lot of the problems here. how would you describe race relations in frederick? about 30 miles north of d.c.. it could always be better. i went to a school that was fairly newly built. i graduated from a school there that was like 99% white. at and up going to college historically black college. my experiences at those different institutions were vastly different. tocould be college compared high school, but it could be the racial makeup of the school.

it is really a simple fact. people are more comfortable around their own people, but that doesn't mean we can't get along at some point. host: what do we do in frederick? caller: i work for the government. i don't actually work in frederick, i just live there. host: thank you, sir. deanna, calling from marble hill, missouri. where is that? caller: a little small town. host: on the river south of st. louis? caller: yep. host: ok. race relations in america. first of all, tell us about yourself. caller: i have a two-year-old, am married, have my own house now. i work hard. host: ok. caller: i just wanted to say that i know that it was wrong that the cop should not have

ever have shot him in the first lace. he should have used something milder, like a stun gun, you know? i believe that kids should never have been messing with the cop in the first place. he should have listened to the cop, he would never have been shot, never have been dead. with the protests going on, you are pissed off, i understand that. there is no need to become -- to be causing more mayhem to the beautiful city of st. louis. i have been there. it is a wonderful place. there is no need for all of this. host: what is the solution? liker: taken to court every other person. he may get time. that's understandable. he did something wrong using a gun instead of something other, calling back up, you know. but, i mean -- sorry, i get nervous when i talk on the

phone. that's ok. we appreciate your calling in. what kind of work do you do? disabled work with the , the mentally disabled, and the elderly. i get on and off racism from elderly clients. and i work with a black mental disabled, his name i can't really say because i know he is listening right now. [laughter] caller: you are 22 years old --host: you are 22 years old. do you think that your view on race is different from someone who is 70 or 50? up with my dad, who was a racist, but he believed that if you were a black man that went out and got a job, you were important to the world. but selling drugs and all of that? that's not. you are pretty much putting your

stereotype at an all-time high. you are out there and getting a job like everyone else , there's nothing wrong there. thank you for calling in. you are on "washington journal." race relations in america, they could be better, but they are not. people inbecause higher up positions would like them to not be better, if you understand what i'm saying. host: first of all, identify those people and then tell us the reason why you think that they don't want race relations to be better. -- caller: people, those people, i guess they would

be people with money. host: white people? caller: not necessarily. i don't think that racism is so much the problem anymore as much as classism. but racism is still relevant because a lot of the media tries to make these racial things explode. there are still a lot of ignorant americans out there who are very sensitive to this information. it divides the people at the bottom. it makes white people, black people, brown people, fight each other and not really realize what is going on in the world. john, you are from memphis, where martin luther king was of course killed. the racially divided city, isn't it? sir, it is. like i said, i believe it is for the same reason.

there are a lot of blacks here. a lot of hispanic people. a lot of whites, but they live more in the suburbs. i think that the racial divide is more of not really .nderstanding each other depending on media such as -- i don't know if i can say -- host: you can say what everyone. whatnot,ox news, msnbc. especially fox news. foxof them are biased, but news is like a freaking monster. it's a propaganda machine. .t gets people wound up people calling obama muslim, saying we don't want america to be another mosque -- host: are those code words to you? it is.

young urban youth, a code word for -- urban youth equals black? caller: right. i have served my country, of course. i gotdn't stay in because injured, but i did serve my country, i got injured, trying to make something of myself. so i am shaky, i'm nervous. you're fine. are your parents or grandparents may be old enough to remember when martin luther king was shot? have they ever talk to you about it? have they ever talked about if or how race relations have changed in memphis since that time? my parents or 58 and 59. they're pretty -- caller: my parents or 58 and 59. they are pretty young. we all understand that there are still racial problems in america, you know?

you can't deny that. and if you deny that i believe you are just been ignorant. but i believe the main problem different entities -- again, i don't know who these are, but they not -- i know they are people with money. ,eal, real money trying to keep you know, the rest of us divided among each other so that we just can't understand the problems of the world and can't govern ourselves. it is supposed to be a government for the people, by the people, and it's not really that because we are too ignorant to even know what is going on in the world. think that your attitude towards race is different from that of your parents? caller: not really. my errands are not racist or anything, but they are more, you know, i guess uneasy around white people? not a bad way, you know.

we work with white people all the time around here. most of the managers here are white. older, sothey're just the civil rights era was not too long ago, you know? they have been through that. my dad used to tell me stories about how they used to have riots at the schools when they segregated, when he was a kid. got theegated, segregated or whatever. right, right. or whatever.ed right, right. of course they are a little bit more uneasy. but it is not really an issue in our house. we tend to try to be more intelligent and civilized people. host: is john, from memphis. next, frederick in fort pierce,

florida. good morning. good morning. i wanted share, i am a truck driver and independent singer-songwriter musician and minister of the gospel. i am also a registered sex offender and have been out a present for over 20 years. first of all, i want to say that dealing with this shooting, i have to air on the side of the -- professionals psychologists that were interviewed on national television on a national network. it is impossible to think that , theso much has gone on anger, the discrimination, the different problems that have

of course people are going to be upset. of course people are going to arrive. , we that thought in mind have to look at -- and this is my opinion -- that whatever it is to his dealing with the investigation of this matter , to me it is very important that it be done in a timely manner. authority, local level first, then it goes to the yes, but makeate, sure that whoever is in authority at the time does the job, does it precisely, and make a determination as to what is right and wrong. after that is done -- the reason

, say whoever is in authority it is appropriate for those within the authority -- it is what the citizens of america have placed their trust and hopes and, to exercise what is right. host: we are going to leave it there. thank you for calling in. "inexplicably, no one knows how many ibo are killed each year by police." this is from "the washington post."

tom, 67 years old. good morning, you are on "the washington journal." caller: thank you for having me. i came from a family who was anti-segregation before anti-segregation was cool. my father was in the air force in 1959. he tried -- the black men in his kidsion had to send their to macon, georgia, 19 miles away so that they could go to a segregated lack school. he tried, because the government was sub financing the schools in

the area, he tried to force to take thes children of the black airmen in the schools there. my father's reward for that was being passed over for promotion and we were shipped off to a career ending assignment in illinois. i want to say that before i say this, that is that my sense of race relations in america is , but what seems to be getting in the way is that we hear a lot about blacks talking s and less worry about their reputation. there are two equations that are present in america that, unfortunately, you can say yeah or nay on this, but they exist.

the first is that young blacks equal crime. the other is black students equal poor schools. -- are you saying those equations are true? buter: not necessarily, they are there. you can say they are wrong, but can you prove it wrong? there are studies that show that , if black crime was eliminated from the united states, the united states would have the lowest crime rate in the world. you could say that is right or wrong, but that is a legitimate study. others.e the black schools, when they were forced to desegregate in florida, went downhill. they were -- it was a disaster. and even today, if a white kid is going to a public school, people are saying, oh, that poor

kid, he has to go to a public school. so, let's look at the reverse. what if black people had the reputation that when their kid goes to school, when there are a lot of black kids going to school, but the school gets better? what if there was a reputation that a higher black population had less crime? do you understand what i'm trying to say? had a raceyou ever relation discussion with an african-american? moved fromen i florida to phoenix -- and i actually have black friends that i went out to dinner with. i moved to this area in 1980. and my -- i didn't have a racist bone in my body. i had black friends. we ate together, went out together, socialized, but as

time went on, there were horrific crimes being committed in this area by black men. what are whites -- white people supposed to think when stores? theft in what are they supposed to think when they see the spectacle in new orleans and st. louis, with stores andking into taking things and saying they deserve it? really? you deserve it? what are they supposed to think? it goes to reputation. you can talk about rights up and down the line. if somebody comes to me and says my rights were violated, i want to hear about it and i want to know all the details, but i'm a you know what, you never get all the details that -- but, you know what? you never get all the details. host: david, you are on "the washington journal." caller: how are you doing, sir?

i think a big problem is white folk, they don't know anything. a lot of them know nothing about black history, nothing. completely nothing. folk -- black man invented the combustible engine. it takes them to work and it was money in their pocket. when you stop at a light, a black man did that. like, they don't teach black history and a lot of schools, especially white schools. they don't teach it at all. we had slavery a little bit, and then that's it. they don't go into detail about it or anything. a couple other comments that the made, we have to

know white folk. we have to know you guys. we just have to know you. where put in a position we have to listen to you. we are put in a position where we cannot really have our own opinion. we just have to do it to keep our job. and if we go against it, you're looking at a termination or something like that. i just think a lot of it is just ignorance, that they just don't know this at all. host: what kind of work do you do in vegas? caller: i do convention work. host: ok. david, are you a different person around white people than you are around other african-americans? caller: not really. not really. i'm a military brat. i have grown up -- i was brought

up around every nationality there is. i lived in japan for five years. i'm well-traveled. it is like the one gentleman was saying. a lot of people have never been out of the box. they have never left home. you've got people who've never left texas. you've got some people who never left mississippi. you've got people who just never left. , evenfind in my travels with the work i do now, when you talk to people from that area, it is like you're are talking to someone from outer space. it is almost like you are talking to a little kid. host: we've heard from some of callers, collars -- who've expressed some stereotypes or prejudices. what is one of your prejudices? what do you think of when you think of white people and you

think, ok, there is going to be white people there? what is your initial reaction? caller: i just don't want to deal with a big it -- a bigot. ever since barack, sometimes, it's far and in-between. bigotry has picked up since we had a black president, and it just has. from day one, when he was giving his speech and the guy said, you liar, that was a big it -- a big ot talking. and the double standards have got triple standards. it's like the old saying which you see in the black community, they can, but you better not. host: we had a young, african-american guy, john, call in from memphis, tennessee. he thinks it is more of a class issue. caller: it is that also. i agree with him. it is that also.

but at the same time, you have a lot of poor whites that are doing good at all. i see it every day in vegas. when i came from california out here it just blew me away that i saw so many white folks begging. it blew me away. i didn't think it existed. but when i got here, first time i ever dealt with it and saw it, i was like, wow. it is economics, too. a couple colors saying -- call ers saying, they are burning down -- you have to look at economics in that area. host: thank you. we are going to continue this conversation. if you are on the phone line, don't hang up. we are going to bring our three guests out and we will continue to take our calls as we go. eleanor clift, long time

washington observer, longtime "newsweek thomas" -- "newsweek " correspondent. talk show host armstrong williams. and paul butler. >> we will hear more about race relations, terrorism, and isis on the network tv talk shows. you can hear them rebroadcast at noon eastern. guests include missouri democratic governor jay nixon, who is making appearances on several of today's talkshows. on meet the press, congressman mike rogers, reverend al sharpton, republican senator rand paul, and britain's ambassador to the u.s. ith house"this week" w homeland security chairman congressman mike mccall and

democratic congressman lacy clay. 2:00, senator john mccain and dr. ben carson, author of "one nation." also, reverend jesse jackson. of the union" follows at 3:00 p.m., another appearance by jay nixon. "face the nation" from cbs, with lacy clay once wisconsin, ryan of senator kelly ayotte, and mike rrell.l -- mike mo again, the rebroadcast of the shows begins at noon eastern with nbc's "meet the press." 1:00 "this week." sunday." news

3:00 "face the nation." c-span orthem here on on c-span radio. download the app or listen online to c-span.org. >> next week, special primetime programming on the c-span networks. debate from glasgow, a over scottish independence. ofues on targeting conservative groups. on educating children from disadvantaged backgrounds. thursday, e-house budget committee hearing -- a house budget committee hearing. friday night, native american history. on c-span2, book tv in prime time.

monday, a discussion about school choice. tuesday night, writer john hope bryant on "how the poor can save capitalism." withdnesday, an interview the author of a biography about neil armstrong. on thursday, a tour of book for bush or simon & schuster. -- of book published simon & schuster. c-span three, monday, the reconstruction era and civil rights. tuesday, the end of world war ii and the atomic bomb. wednesday night, the 25th anniversary of the fall of the berlin wall. thursday, a look at how americans attitudes about world war i changed through the course of the war. and on friday, a nasa are commensurate about the apollo 11 moon landing. nasa documentary about the apollo 11 moon landing. e-mail us at

comments@c-span.org. join the speech -- the c-span conversation. like us on facebook. follow us on twitter. >> this month, c-span presents debates on what makes america great, evolution, and genetically modified foods. issues spotlight with in-depth look at veteran hair -- veteran health care, student loan debt, and campus sexual assault. new perspective on issues including global warming, voting rights, fighting infectious disease, and food safety. and our history to her showing site and sounds from america's -- history tour, showing sights and sounds from america's history. let us know what you think about the programs you are watching. call us. e-mail us at comments@c-span.org. join the conversation. like us on facebook. follow us on twitter. >> "the washington journal"

continues. host: paul butler. law professor, former prosecutor, as somebody who has been arrested, what is your take on ferguson? guest: i'm tired of this happening over and over again. it is not just ferguson. it is staten island. it is that 51-year-old grandmother who was beaten by the cops. hit her 10 times. all of these unarmed african-americans being brutalized by police. i think it is important to have a conversation about race and to put it in a larger context, in which african lives just don't seem to be valued. host: that is larger context? guest: it is not just criminal justice. it is civil justice. it is not just african-americans. it is people of color. it is important to talk about race. white americans who are disenfranchised. the lgbt community has issues with the justice system.

but it is important to realize that african-americans -- it is the classic american dilemma. there was a lot of hope when barack obama was elected. i don't think anyone thought that it would reverse a legacy of 400 years of slavery and segregation, but there was the thought, the expectation that we would move forward on racial justice. looking at ferguson, looking at civil rights protesters being gassed in the streets like it is the 1960's, it doesn't seem like we have come that far. host: armstrong williams, what is your take on ferguson? guest: good morning. anis so unfortunate to see innocent individual shot six times. the law enforcement have phasers -- tasers. they have batons. they have so many other options. if you remember the supreme court rulings, even their own guidelines, the last thing you want to do is shoot an individual. , theerstand the outrage

family. in our system of law, innocent until proven guilty. on a deeper level, i think we as americans must get to a point where we are outraged at all lives that are lost in such a tragic way, whether it is in chicago, the kind of crime and feelings that go on there every weekend, whether it was what happened in new york. because i don't -- i think it is less about race and more about law enforcement. i think it is about the training of law enforcement. we've had an opportunity to talk to police officers. they will tell you in their training sessions, when they're showing images of what criminals are and who commits the crimes, most of the images are of young black men. that is unfortunate. if you live in a place like in missouri or new york, where it is a high concentration of andle who look the same they commit the same crime over and over again, i don't care

what your training is with law enforcement or the rulings are of the supreme court, you begin to believe that is a picture of crime. somehow or another, we have to get back, is ashley with young men -- take chicago as an example. why do these young people killed? they believe that the gun gives them power. if someone disrespects them, the piece of power they have is to take someone's life. fathers are not in the home. it is more than law enforcement. it goes back to the communities. the other issue is, well, we have to have a conversation about the value of life, personal responsibility, and accountability. we need to get away from this thing about race. it is less about race and it is about human beings. i would be just as outraged if the kid was latino, if the kid was white, if it did work day. -- if the kid were gay. i will give you this stat alone for the last year. 100 black men have been killed

by law enforcement at the sirs. 5000 alone have been killed by black on black crimes. if you want to militarize someplace, it should not be a place like missouri. it should be chicago. to me, there is something -- it goes back to training and law enforcement. we have to value all lives, regardless of their race. >host: eleanor clift, ferguson. guest: if you talk about this in the context of all the other problems we have to solve, it gets overwhelming. i agree we have to tackle many of the issues that armstrong just raised. but if we take it back to ferguson, we do have a case of a parent excessive force -- of apparent excessive force, even in this young man stole some conveniencerom a store, he did not deserve to have six shots fired into him. now we go through the wheels of justice. we have a president who has announced for the first time that our criminal justice system

is not fair. i think you can look at the people condemned, sometimes wrongly, to death, look at the numbers in prisons, and you can tell there is something wrong. there are some social logical issues at play here as well. but the criminal justice system does not operate in a fair way. i think the president did the right thing by having his attorney general go to ferguson. the appearance of eric holder did have a calming effect. i think there are many more trouble spots ahead. we don't know if the grand jury will return an indictment. we don't know if it will result in charges. you don't know if or how this officer will be punished. we don't know all the facts. i think there are many flashpoints ahead. i think the conversation certainly, as you are having on the show, is out there. it demonstrates a pretty big racial divide in this country still. we may have a black president, a black attorney general, but we have a lot of white, entrenched power, and we have a country

that is changing rapidly. a lot of people feel uneasy about that. the president's election, rather than assuaging those feelings, has brought them out to the open. now we can deal with them. i commend you for having the show. a longtimeeen washington observer. how do you think race relations have changed in this city and throughout your lifetime? ew,st: i think there is a n professional class of african americans, certainly in washington, that was probably always there, but is very much more visible in the last years since the president has been in office. i applaud that. i lived in northwest washington, which is still dominantly white, but i have several black neighbors. in my own personal family, we have some interracial marriage. i am very comfortable with it. i applaud it. i recognize that there are some people who feel threatened.

host: paul butler, what is your personal racial situation? guest: i live in the middle class, integrated neighborhood. i've watched washington and i've lived here for the last 20 years. in some ways, it is like many cities. many of the poor people, who are disproportionately african-american, get moved out, and middle-class people, often young, white people, move into these neighborhoods. they walk their dogs in the street. it is nice to see the neighborhoods, quote-unquote, "improving," but you wonder why that has to always be at the expense of poor people and african-americans. you go to these yuppie restaurants and there are very few african-american waiters. we are not benefiting from the progress -- the supposedly less that we are making in terms of race in this country. african-americans are still left out.

when we look at other groups that have been subordinated, italian, irish come a jew -- all eventuallyy move up. african-americans don't seem to have the same access to the american dream. i find that troubling. host: armstrong williams. guest: i'm an employer. i own a television station. when you are an employer and you employ hundreds of people and you have been an employer for the last 28 years, you see all kinds of people that come through your place of employment. and what matters is confidence -- competence. whether you show up on time, whether you work late, and what you produce. i have not experienced racism. i say this often. people think i'm crazy. we grew up on a farm, where we were isolated, bred in an incubator. my parents did not pass on the bitterness or the segregation

they experienced. they did not pass that onto us. we did not drink from that trough. my parents gave us a clean slate. they said you write your own narrative. we had a mother and father in the household. we learned as a fling, sacrifice, respect for law enforcement. -- we learned discipline, sacrifice, respect for law enforcement. my father told us, if you are stopped by law enforcement, that is a person of authority with a you are say, yes, right. no back talk. that has always worked for me. i've never had anything -- it is all about my attitude. whether they are right or wrong, it doesn't matter. my father taught me this lesson. when you go through life and you get an education and you're able to build wealth, it becomes less about race and more about class. i think we all can agree with this. if that -- it does have an impact when 70% of the population is --

when 70% of the population have no fathers in the house will. i see employees who come from single-parent households versus two parents. then we -- the men react different to authority. we take a lot of these kids and mentor. they don't believe they can be successful. all you have to do is get an education. sometimes the best things that happen in life, you can't explain. they believe in this narrative of what black is, criminals, drug users, uneducated, imprisoned. the women and children i know are not that way. i see so many young blacks all the time. they are not successful because they are black. they are successful because their dna is self-worth, self-esteem, and they don't buy into this america is racist. guest: but that doesn't matter. trayvon martin was on his way to his dad's house. the young man killed by police in new york -- st. louis, he was supposed to start school this week.

the problem is not about fixing young black men. it is about fixing the system. it is about fixing the police, the criminal justice system. i totally agree with you, eleanor. it is unfair. we need to look at these structures. when you are saying you get stopped by the police, it doesn't sound like you've never been the victim of discrimination. it sounds like you have an attitude where you want to ignore that, but it sounds like -- the police know you are black, employers know you are black. there was a study that said if you're a black man who has a college degree, you don't have the same chances as a white man who has a criminal record. if employers look at your resume and see you have a, quote-u nquote, "black name," you don['t don't getet -- you the same callbacks that you do if you have a white name. guest: it's about your way of thinking. everyone knows that story.

there are always exceptions. yes, there are people who have racism in their heart, but that is not the whole story. we should also give these kids the other story. when police officers stop me, i never think about race. your story is just part of the story. you have to make these kids believe there is opportunity. guest: older people who came out of the civil rights era do think you submit and you respect authority. younger people are not willing to do that, whether they are white or black. we still have that generational divide in ferguson. go to calls. to we divided our phone lines by age. we have a roundtable, paul butler, armstrong williams, eleanor clift. we will put the numbers on the screen so you can dial in at the

number most appropriate to you. under 30, 31 to 49, over 50. have you seen a difference in how white people view race when it comes to different generations? guest: i do think young people are colorblind, which was the goal of martin luther king, jr. difference.ee any they are intermarrying. i think they have gotten over it. i have always been open-minded. i grew up in new york city. my parents were immigrants at a delicatessen store. when my brought -- when i brought a friend home, my father would ask what is the last name. carol murphy -- you knew by the last name whether they were polish, italian, irish. that was important to my father, who actually was a terrible bigot in his own house.

he was wonderful in the store to everyone, but, boy, that always made me the champion of the underdog. that's where i got my values from. plus, i had a brother who was 16 years old or who was a new deal liberal. and he made sure that i grew up right. and then as a young woman i moved to atlanta working for "newsweek." that was the first time i really saw an integrated society. atlanta was a city too busy to hate. they were working on integration. they were surrounded by five dominantly black colleges. there i met many black people who were far more educated than me, which was eye-opening in that era. that is kind of how i came of age on this issue. host: paul butler, very quickly, is your attitude toward race different from your parents? guest: i think i'm more optimistic than my parents. they grew up in chicago, the city that martin luther king

said was the most segregated that he had ever seen. i had great opportunities to go to a nice just with high school tnd then -- to a nice jesui high school and then onto some great colleges and law schools. i was exposed to some of the young people eleanor described, people who were more open-minded about race. i think i'm less cynical than they are. guest: my parents were wonderful. they experienced much racism and discrimination, but they also said along the way when they would make assumptions and judgments about people, they found that these people became their greatest allies and friends in life. they always told us not to judge someone based on their color of their skin, but their character and whether the values were similar. it is one of the best gifts my parents have given me. host: let me apologize to call her -- to callers. we planned on talking for just about five minutes, but then we got into their personal stories and youth -- i thought you might

find that interesting as well. we are going right to calls. we will spend the next hour and a half taking your calls for our roundtable, race in america. st. louis, missouri, thanks for holding on. you are on "the washington journal." caller: thank you for taking my call. i find your guests very interesting. i am from st. louis. with theen out there demonstrators nightly. my background is an activist with police crimes and police brutality decades -- cases for decades. i can give you several names in history. i know folks there are familiar .ith fannie lou as she said some years ago, "i'm sick and tired of being sick and tired" of these police crimes against our youth. ,hat has happened in ferguson

it is clearly a revolt and rebellion of young folks who are not willing to take it anymore. they don't want anymore trayvon martin verdicts or rodney king verdict. what happened in ferguson, the people are hurt, really hurt. interesting what your guests have said. i know the time is always limited. what is getting the young people going forward, getting the young people involved in politics,aking, in involved in what controls their community -- it is very interesting as an eyewitness. i'm seeing it unfold and unveil. i think it is very despicable to

be putting it in the light that the officer is the victim. host: could i ask you -- could i give -- could you give us how old you are? guest: i am 70 years old. host: and you've been out of ferguson several times? guest: yes. host: when did you start to become an activist in issues like this. -- like this? 19 79. -- 1979. not making in the 1990's. -- rodney king in the 1990's. folks who never made the news. time and time again, young black men are killed by the police and nothing is done. that devalues black life. young people are rebelling against the situation they find. oousy education, no jobs, and n health care.

so, they are sick and tired of being sick and tired. host: thank you, ma'am. armstrong williams, quick, short answer for xenobia? guest: the ferguson police have new througha -- through a hiring process. they have fired the police. they feel they have a prosecutor who is out of control, who has always shown bias toward the police department, against these young men. what has happened with this young man who was shot like an everythinggalvanized they have been feeling for so long. obviously, people are upset. we have to change this. we cannot take it anymore. i can sympathize, absolutely. burbank,tin, -- mark, illinois, 57 years old. guest: i'm going to put a little

spin on everything i've been hearing this morning. i'm so proud of these guys that are going to little league world series championship. hopefully, they win it. i want everybody in america to get behind them. thank you. host: we will leave his, their and move onto -- his comment there and move on. chris is 29 years old. guest: interesting discussion -- caller: interesting discussion about race in america. i'm 29 years old, black, american. i've moved all across the country. lived on the east coast, the west coast, i've been out of the country. and i think part of the problem wewhen we look at history, tend to take what we see at face value and not dig any deeper. history is written by the victors. it is written by those who have power.

the last people to establish the dominant force across any type of peoples. if you look back in history, if you peel back the layers, there are artifacts, art, writing of civilizations that we have been told in schools are the makeup of white people, these civilizations were black. we have a whole history that was erased in order to perpetuate the idea that white is dominant and white is more closer to godliness. and i think that has perpetuated itself across the whole world. i believe it is a way to ensure genetic survival. if you look at just the gene pool, there are recessive traits and dominant traits. light skin, blue eyes, blonde those arehair -- recessive traits. if all white people got together, say they coalesced around australia, they would still be a small drop in the

ocean in terms of the dominant color across the whole world. if they only intermingle with people,er, other white eventually after seven generations -- host: ring this to a conclusion. .- bring this to a conclusion this is what you feel you've been talking echo guest: -- you've been taught? guest: no, i believe this is what i have not been taught. our history has been whitewashed. host: what do you do in lake zürich, illinois? guest: i'm a teacher. host: integrated school, segregated school? guest: it is an integrated school, but there is a small black and minority citizenry. host: and you are one of the few black teachers? guest: that's correct. host: what's that like for you? guest: i am reminded that i am black everything will day that i interact with the world around me.

it is not always explicit. it is not always in your face. nobody is coming up to me and yelling in my face. word in mythe n face. why people have benefited from a white supremacy system in this country for generations -- white people have benefited from a whites and pharmacy system in this country for generations. generational wealth =-- from a white supremacy system in this country for generations. general racial -- generational wealth is a problem. let's get some response from georgetown law professor, author, former prosecutor paul butler. guest: a lot of the colors have made -- callers have made comments about the importance of member in history, especially

african-american history. when we look at what went on in ferguson, it is so important to understand that this isn't anything new. when we think of history, we like to tell this celebratory story of racial progress. but chris is absolutely right. in some ways, african americans aren't doing as well now as we were doing in the 1950's and 1960's if you look at criminal justice. now are disparities much worse than they were in the 50's and 60's. it doesn't mean that african-americans suddenly turned degenerate or violent. this is about policy, policy implemented by the government, like our 17 loss, these zero-tolerance laws -- our 17 laws, these zero-tolerance laws. what he said about black wealth, that is right. african-americans have gone backwards in the last 20 years. we were especially hard hit by the housing crisis, which is

where most american families had their wealth. it is really important to understand that history does not tell the story of forward thatess that -- progress, there do need to be major interventions. reparations are very controversial. we need to do something and it needs to be about race. host: do you think those economic stats are institutional? guest: they are absolutely institutional. if you look at access to the american dream. for african-americans, unlike any other group, just because your parents did ok, the idea is that you do even better. with african-americans, it is 50/50. with every other group, if your parents did well, it is likely you are going to do every better. african-americans, maybe you do better, maybe you do worse. it is not about black folks not trying, not about personal responsibility, getting young man to pull up their pants. it is about discrimination.

chris used the term "white supremacy." there is a different value placed on white folks' lives than on people of color. host: david is calling from the united kingdom. where are you calling from? tell us about yourself. then go ahead and talk about race relations. caller: myself, i was born in the usa. 1960 -- the army in well, i started out in new york, my parents moved me to miami, florida, and that was quite a shock for me. ie first time i got on a bus, was amazed to see all the black people sitting in the back of the bus. and there was lots of seats. and the only seat was in the back of the bus, so i took it. and people looked at me, not the black people, but the white people, a little bit strange, but they let it go.

i was a young kid. i was nine years old. i didn't understand what was going on. it was really a shock for me. moving on, though, what i -- when i look at things, because i've lived in the u.k. for about 20 years, i finally landed here, and when i see things going on in the united states, i see them from a different viewpoint from most americans. if there was a s, living wage jobs in the united states, i think we would have a lot less problems with race relations in the united states. that was the first thing. as for black people, young black people, i think they need more inspirational leaders that are not sporting stars or musicians. there is nothing wrong with

aspiring to be a basketball player or a football palyer -- player or a musician, but most people won't make it. but there are inspiring black people, but they don't get the press. for instance, i was looking at armstrong williams and was reminded of somebody that i've met in the united kingdom called -- boy --ed out as a young he started out as a young boy in jamaica. the plots job to tend of land they had for the vegetables. in newowns a large farm england. he is very popular with the neighbors. now that he has this gigantic organic farm, he has made it his business to bring people --

young people from the inner city who have never seen a farm, lots of them in trouble, brought them out to the farm, taught them what it is like to live on a farm. some of them, he really has changed their lives. host: how would you quickly describe race relations in the u.k.? well, it is not perfect. let me put it that way. but it is not nearly the kind of issue that it is -- seems to be in the united states. there are lots of people who -- immigrated in the 1950's. for a long time, there was lots of resentment towards them. but most people, i won't say everybody, most people have generally moved on. -- therethere are lots is lots of resentment to the young people who were not respectful for authority. host: thank you, sir.

eleanor clift, even though david is much older than you, what did you hear from that white man talking about his experience growing up in america and what he had to say? guest: i think he is right that we need to provide more inspirational role models and more paths to success for young, particularly young children of color to succeed. i think you place a lot of blame on the public school system, which could be improved. if we know what needs to be done, it needs more resources, it needs more integrated neighborhoods feeding in. oftenhington, d.c., people move here and they won't even consider the public schools. they don't even consider them. i think that needs to change. i do think europe has had more difficulty incorporating the immigrant populations, the muslim population.

i think than the u.s. has had, in recent years anyway, not going back 200 years. i think if we can say something positive about this country, i don't think there is another country on the planet that is homogenous in its population as this country. we have problems and we have certainly not achieve the full melting pot, but that remains the aspiration. i think in many ways we are far more successful than any other country, particularly in europe. host: armstrong williams, any comments to what eleanor clift had to say or what david from the u.k. had to say? guest: obviously, this is a very insightful discussion. i justen to the callers, find it intriguing the way people speak about white americans, as if they have everything, there are no issues, no challenges, everything is laid out for them, it is just perfect. it is some form of idolatry. guest: for white americans?

hostguest: yes. guest: i don't think that is the case. guest: i know it's not. that is the point i'm making. when the white -- you believe the white man is the source of all your problems, you must believe he is the source of all your solutions. i don't get up in the morning thinking about the white man or the black man. i think about payroll, programming, real estate. the issue is that we give white people all this power until we begin to believe that they have power over us. then we have discussions like this. if i have the attitude that the white man was -- were to give to me, i would not be where i am. if i had added to the black man was against me, i would not be where i am. -- if i had the attitude the black man was against me, i would not be where i am. just because a police officer sought -- shot someone down like

an animal, does not mean everyone has that thought. we get upset. we say this young black person committed a crime, then all black people must commit crime. we see people as individuals. we are not groups. we have to get away from group thinking. they have to put their pants on just like i do. they need us as much as we need them. we are in this experiment together. we met -- there are good people in the world. 85% of americans could care less about race and would not discriminate against you. why would you take away from someone because of the color of their skin or their gender and take away from the profit of your business? you want people who bring creativity. people do not do well because they are black, they do well because they studied. their parents taught them respect and enthusiasm for education. no one is successful because of their race. guest: that's not what i said. guest: that's how i interpreted it.

we all come in this world with our own baggage and circumstances, but you have to believe that you are just as good as anyone else. without that, you're dead before you start. host: eleanor clift, do you want to clarify what you said? guest: i said when i went to atlanta, there were five historically black colleges. oft, to me, speaks opportunity that is provided. when it is there, people take advantage of it. we don't provide those opportunities everywhere or in enough places. host: professor butler. guest: the college that allows african-american young men who want to allow -- to be rappers and basketball players -- i know a lot more young black men who want to be barack obama then want to be -- than want to be jay-z. role models, mentors are important, but they are not really responding to the problem. it does not really matter , theer christopher garner young man in the chokehold in new york, or michael brown, who

was killed by police in ferguson -- .. that may not be your experience but when you look, african-americans, business owners, they can't get loans like white business owners can do. and you are right, armstrong. it was seen that it's irrelevant

rachelle. apartment buildings, there is a test case where you send a white prospective renter and an african-american prospective renter, they are almost always treated differently. money is green. you would think there wouldn't be a difference but there is something real about racism. you say i don't wawant to prete it doesn't exist. >> that's like saying i don't want to think gravity exists. discrimination is real. >> patricia is calling in from california. she is 64 years old. good morning, patricia. >> good morning. thank you. this is my first time calling. host: host: yes. ca caller: i would like to address the gentleman about he was stating, all of these african-american names in crime but what i would like to address is what about the mass killings

we have seen? the mass killings we have seen has been non-people of color. i don't see the outrage when it comes to those little kids out there on east coast who were blown away. that was by a white gentleman. i forget how old he was. i don't hear the outcry. we talked about this young man who buy and sold cigarettes and he should have been blown away. they wasn't blown away. i think it was colorado whobly those people away in the movie theatre. he wasn't blown away. he was able to be arrested and now he is going to court. i don't understand why when it comes to black children, they are blown away. i want to let you know, i am 64 years old. he was born and raised in

memphis, tennessee, my father was one of the black american farmers. i have moved from there to chicago, to california and to nevada. the first time i ever had a police record, i had two children, both of our children graduated from university. i put my kids through school. they don't have the issues in corporate america i had. okay? i had issues because i was black, white america. the first time i had to deal with white america was when i was in corporate america. i did have issues but i made sure my kids -- i know it's not a black world and i sent my kids to university but what i would like to say about all of that is that i have a home in nevada, a gated community, the minimum house is over $500,000. on the day of barack obama was being elected in 2008, i was campaigning for him in my

community because it was gated. nobody could get in there. i was walking along, not going to every home. they had a list of all of the voters who had decided who they were going to vote. but barack obama, i had a white gentleman who came over to me and asked what do you call yourself doing? i said, excuse me? i said this is none of your business what i am doing. and, you know, i told him, you are harassing me. you need to leave me alone. the next thing i know, the homeowners association president approached me, asked me my name. i asked him his name. he refused to give me his name. the police officer came up on me. i had to give him my name, my social security number. i had to give up everything because i didn't have my id on me because i was walking. now, there is non-wrong. i don't have a police record. i have a degree. my children have degrees. what-have-you. the united states, i was here, i also have a home in california.

when we moved in to the home, the neighbors put a dead rat on our porch. a dead rat on the porch. this is what i want to tell and i will get off. what we need to do in the community, i don't care what color you are, we have had problems with the police here my husband and i. we have problems with the police here, also. but you know what i do? i write a letter to the chief of police, and i copy the mayor and i copy everybody i can and, also, the justice department. anybody else, you go to your job and you get a complaint, you are going to be -- i heard about this thing in ferguson, what i couldn't understand is they said this officer that they had. i said wait a minute how can that be when those people told me, this happened to me? nobody is writing letters and it works. believe me. it works every time. >>. host: host: patricia, thank you very much. you were shaking your head. guest: so many african

americans have stories like that. and, you know, like i said at the beginning about what's going on ferguson, you get tired of it. you know, you really do want things to change. you want -- we want to hope and we want change. >> that's one reason, though. i think that's happening in ferguson now with these young folks coming in with new ideas, i think that's inspiring. so, i am hoping this is a moment where we will see that change. i know there is going to be this freedom ride for ferguson next weekend, labor day weekend when young folks of all different backgrounds, different colors, different sexual orientations are all coming together to create change. >> go ahead. i think it's important that she said. i think she said a lot. she taught her children differently about how to deal with the world but she also said that she did not take the disrespect. she committed herself to writing letters, and the issue in that

community, this is, again, an issue here about law enforcement. no community where she was reported for expressing and exercising her rights, the support and whomever she wanted to, the police fell down on their job. they should have never asked her because she committed no crime. she did nothing wrong. that was a failure of law enforcement. >> that's the issue here the community, yes, you can have ignorance, racism but in law enforcement, when they reample their racism and ignorance, that's where america fails in its justice system. >> paul butler, do you see a difference with your students who are in their 20s? guest: when it comes to race and think being race? i would like to think so. i have written about hip-hop. when we look at pop culture and the influence it has on all of our young people, you know, we do have african-american men and women, beyonce, jay-z, and

hip-hot, repeat for criminal justice. my wife, latino asian american students and african-american students who listen to hip-hop, they know that the police have this different relationship with african-american men. they know that when you have more young black men in prison than in college that that impacts families, that that impacts communities. but i do think that they are month open-minded about race. >> and book t.v. sat down with professor paul butler to talk about his book "let's get free: a hip-hop theory of justice" if you would like to see that in its entirety go to booktv.org. in the upper left hand corner, type in his name. you will be able to watch that online. wendell is calling from atlanta, 54 years old. good morning, wendell. you are on "the washington journal" caller: good morning. how is everybody today? host:

good. caller: i was listening to dr. butler. dr. butler, i don't think you have a complete grip on what's going on. a couple of years ago, the hispanics had a thinking on cinco de mayo where they were not going to come to work. i went to get some black kids to come to work and the things i was told well, i don't want nobody telling me what to do and they said how much does this job pay? and i said $15 an hour. he told his mother he was going to work a job. the a lot of kids feel they are going to become ballplayers like you say or become hip-hop

artists. so many kids locked up in jail. when is the black kids going to stop selling drugs and stop robbing the adults, the again men, when are we going to start mentoring these kids so they can do better? host: tell us about yourself. you are 54 years old living in atlanta. caller: i am living in atlanta from new york city. i have been eat up can cops and i work with cops right now i had to fight guys every day in the barracks who wanted to go to these meetings or whatever and i

said anybody you are going to leave. these soldiers working together, marines working together. my thing is this. i don't want to hear all of this stuff, all of this whoa is me is like tearing me up. we've got to do something. i have been out of work. if i was laid off i created my own job. i made a job. there are people who come to the united states who i mmigrate to this country with nothing. theefr got new houses and cars because they have something called a work ethic. host: wendell, thank you. paul butler, he addressed you specifically guest: i'm sorry that wendell has had all of these, it sounds like really horrible experiences with racism. he says he's been eat up by white cops, he got stabbed by one of his fellow soldiers in the military and all of these horrible experiences with white

folks has somehow brought him to a critique of african-american young folks. so i don't quite get that that young people that i know want to work african unemployment has remained twice what unemployment is. >> that's not about black folks not wanting to work. that's where people wouldn't higher us because of discrimination. it's true for too many people. what about drugs? why don't they stop selling drugs? >> a great example. if you got not far from here to the national institute of health and ask: do blacks use drugs or sell drugs more than anybody else in this country? they say, no. african-americans, about 13% of folks who are involved in drugs. but if you go really two blocks from here to the department of justice, two blocks up for drug, 16% of black.

13% of people who do the crime. 60 percent who do the time. so again, people get tired of talking about race, talking about discrimination but it's as real as gravity and unless we deal with that as we are doing in the show today, we are not going to make progress. >> has this officer in and -- and you a former prosecutor, has this officer been convicted already. host: darren wilson? guest: as an important question: is he even going to be charged? lots of reasons could be concern about whether this prosecutor here has a conflict of interest, if he can be fair. he's got five folks in his family who do work or have worked for the police department. st. louis has never convicted a police officer of manslaughter or murder and this guy has gone out of his way to praise the police. i don't think anyone who thinks the way they were doing crowd

control and protest control in ferguson was a shining moment in law enforcement but he says he doesn't even think the should be put on the indicates. there is real reason to be concerned about whether he can do a full and fair investigation. if you are the prosecution it's hard to conflict police officers and people understand they've got the toughest jobs in the world. there are a lot of years. it doesn't mean it's impossible. it just means it's difficult. >> governor clift, look at the politics of this. there is an article in the "st. louis post," the fact that a black man was appointed to lead this. whites are contributing to a 300,000 dollar fund for darren wilson. there are some, you know, racial and political divides there. i think governor nixon made a good decision. i think it was his decision that put captain johnson in charge of the police work. that was a very good decision and instantly brought calm.

if they hadn't released that surveillance video which stirred up the community which seemed to come out of nowhere, i think we might have seen more calm prevail. i think, you know, governor nixon was being talked about as a possible running mate for hillary clinton if she runs for president. he was seen as a moderate democrat who won in a conservative red state, but i think what came through here is that he does not or did not seem to have the feel for the african-american community that a southern democratic governor would have because blacks are such an important part of the democratic coalition. he seemed rather tone deaf. he took too long to visit the community and, you know, said some things that got people upset. so i don't think he gets any awards for how he handled things. and in terms of, you know, police rallying to raise money

for the police officer, you know, i don't think we know the race of everyone who is contributed money but we can suspect that there are probably white people who think police have a tough job and he is getting railroaded. and depending upon where you sit, you can, you know, look at this situation and it may be come to that conclusion. so, i think it's possible he will be indicted. the color the prosecutor is not presenting the case. he has two prosecutors. i believe one is an african-american woman. the other is a 27-year veteran that are apparently respected people. generally, grand juries go where they are led. i think it i think it's probably 50/50 whether there will be an indictment. if he is not indicted he still has the federal government looking perhaps to make a civil rights case against him. and if he is exonerated, i still

think he feeds to suffer some punishment. and i leave that up to the powers that be there, but, you know, he may -- the legal definition set by the supreme court, i believe, in 1990 has to be sort of a reasonable expectation that he was facing a dangerous situation. so, i am sure they will replay all of the circumstances and he could -- he could legally be the -- i don't want to say exonerated because that's too grand a word. he may legally get off, but i still think there needs to be some punishment and i think this police officer's life is probably very much compromised at this point in terms of his prospects. >> armstrong? >> you asked the weather whether he has already been convicted. of course, he has been convicted by a certain element of that

jurisdiction, and by the media. and the only thing we can do is base our perception on justice and injustice and based upon what we hear, what we see and what we read. there are so many other things that you have to consider in the legal process. but, you know, i want to -- what i am going to say is directly to professor butler because it's quite bothersome to me actually: maybe i am misinterpreting what you are saying but i know i am not. believing today the reason why, let's just say african-americans whom you seem to care most about, the reason why they don't have jobs, they don't have opportunity, they cannot make progress, is because of racism if anybody watches this broadcast believes the only reason you are not progressing is because of racism, that's a sad state. yes, racism exists.

yes, police are out of control. but 80% of why people don't progress in this country, they don't attain success and continue is because of them the family. education still important. discipline is important. making good choices in this country is important. encouraging two-parent households, households discipline, having babies out of wedlock is something you need to consider unless you know you can afford, the child and the responsibilities that come along with it. it's troubling to me to think that some young kids who happens to be black watching this show today believes, well, i am not where i am supposed to be because of racism and law enforcement. >> that's not true. i wish i had time to do a let'son about african-american history or economics but what i

have time to note is while i think you are wrong, i think a lot of people share your view, so when president obama was asked, he mentioned my brother's keeper's program about your personal responsibility narrative that if black and latino men pull up their pants, it will be all right. my brother's keeper's leaves out half the race. women and girls get left out. they have the same kind of concerns and problems that african-american men have. if you look at the ways black people haven't had capital to start our own businesses, if we maybe could higher our own, we wouldn't have to be so concerned from discrimination. it's difficult to get money to

start businesses. we don't have the same access that other groups have. i think you have a fundamental misunderstanding. >> could it be financial diversity? could it be that you don't have the education? that you never taught the skills of what hard work and discipline is could it be something other than racism and discrimination? >> do you think the fact that black folks have inferior skills is unrelated to racism? >> what you do when you are in that school. you make the most of the education and environment like many of us have done through our lives. this is nothing new. it's not unique. >> children are most making most of what they have. so, you know, when we look at black history, it's a wonder they are doing as well as they are. i think that's a testament. >> no wonder people do well when they make sacrifices and have

discipline. i am saying it's easy to fail. it is easy to fail. >> michael brown chose to go to college. that did not stop the police officer. >> that should not have happened. >> what happened -- >> it was a situation. >> how many times do you say that? >> that will continue to happen. >> the pattern is an unfortunate situation. >> law enforcement of law enforcement. we need to have law enforcement. host: gentlemen, we will leave that conversation. eleanor clift, do you want to put a period on that? >> i i think racism exists, but, you know, young people have to deal with life as it is, and there are paths to succeed regardless of racism. it's harder and we should make it easier, but i think in a way they are both right. host: 3 years old, hamilton, ohio down by cincinnati, sarah, please tell us a little bit about yourself and go ahead and

make your comment on "race in america." caller: i wanted to thank everyone and all of your guests. i appreciate their opinions, and they really are all correct in what they are stating. i am 33 years old. i was t i was the only person of any color, bi-racial throughout my childhood in school years. when i became 19 years old, i actually met my first black person. i did not realize race was such a big deal until i moved from the country to the city. where i grew up, and like i said, a predominantly white area, i did not feel racism. no white person ever looked at me and said, you can't play softball because you are black. you can't go to college because you are a black race simply a

strong point but the civil rights movement and our fathers and grandfathers and mothers and grandmothers, they fought to change that silent. this is about police brew tanty. i was married at 30. would heed our first child at 31. now i look at my baby and i think, you know, i have to teach her about race relations because i don't want him shot because he had an attitude. for a police officer to situate they do not deal with attitude is saying to a dentist, you know, i don't like teeth. you are in the wrong profession. i have to really completely agree with mr. williams. if you work hard, you can obtain your goals. you cannot quit. there are going to be a lot of people who spit in your face. you might have to fieel the cra but that's no matter where you are at. you have to make the best of the situation and keep trying even

with a criminal record. my husband has a criminal record, but he works 55 hours a week and provides for his family. i told him not too long ago, you have changed the lives of so many you don't even know. you broke a generalal divide. what our fathers couldn't do and didn't want to have a traditional household, you changed for our children. our children know what a mother and father truly is, how to act, how to go to work. and i will state this other thing, too: growing up in a completely white area, my mother taught me, if you walk with somebody else's land, you can get shot. if you go in somebody else's home unannounced, ug you can be shot. if you backtac to the police, they will shoot you. this is -- this is not a color issue. the colored is sad because you have to believe you can be better. you have to believe you can be better. we know that -- we know that racism is a reality but you have to believe it can be better.

you have to show action. silent protests and the freedom ride again is where it's at. host: sarah, if you were living in ferguson or the st. louis area, would you -- would you attend some of the protests that have been happening out there? caller: honestly, i would, but i would go back to write to go my governor. you go through the proper command, chain of command. i couldn't take my child out there because i would be sfrooed some of the youtube things, my fami family's life would be in jeopardy. but in act the waactuality. they called looters protesters. those are two different definitions. the protestsors that are out there, like i said, speaking and holding their hands up, it breaks my heart, but if it comes down to the behavior, both the officer and the young gentleman, the behavior wasn't correct on both sides.

it's sad it ended up the way it did. we have to teach our youth they are the responsibility of authority, every police officer, they are not all bad, they are not all horrible and we have to respect authority. we need to give psychological exams to these officers, there needs to be cameras and there needs to be a check and balance. host: thank you very much. a lot on the table. quickly around the table. armstrong williams, she agreed with what some of what you had to say. >> i respect professor butler and i respect ms. clift. we have perspectives in this conversation and there is not one size that fits all. these kids are in trouble. these kids are not progressing. i mean since 1966, with the passage of the civil rights legislation, 5 out of 20 black families were in poverty. today, in 2014, it's 15 out of

20. there is something wrong. >> maybe it's the government. maybe it's the programs that it is designed that are not working. maybe we need to go back and say look, the government can give you a hand up and can help you along the way but you should never allow the government to become your destiny. obviously there is something wrong. obviously if you look at families whether it's jewish or irish at the turn of the last century in a similar plight as american blacks are today, obviously, the family unit plays a role in this. it plays a role. there are so many things that particular play a roll but the bottom line is, i think, she is absolutely right. you've got to teach your children. i don't care how many police officers there are, to respect authority and take a sub might have been positioning because there are lives at stake. >> she does address law enforcement at the end of the call. she said some jurisdictions are moving towards cameras and putting cameras on policemen. and i think, you know, that's probably the direction that we are going. i want to mention there is a

group called "strategies for youth" based in cambridge, massachusetts, who work with police officers on how to deal with teenagers and kids on how to deal with police. yes, it's authority. you shouldn't be giving them giv guff, but to teach kids that it's okay to be submissive full but still have your self respect. >> eleanor clift, congress is coming back in a couple of weeks. what do you see politically happening in the short session that they have left? >> i think the chair of the judiciary, congressman goodwillat russia has been resistant to any kind of hearings. they have very little time. i think with the federal investigation going on, i think they are probably going to duck this. my guess. >> paul butler? >> i want to push back against this notion that ifnly black people worked harder, if only

they had dads in the home, if only they weren't so dependent on their government, then it would be all good some of the hardest working women, people i know, are african-american women. armstrong. i have heard you talk about the women in your family and how much respect that you have for them. in 2014, the average net worth of a black woman is $100. the average net worth of a latina is $110. >> that's not about those women. it's about, again, the structures that don't allow them the same access as white men whose net worth is many thousand times greater. does that mean that white men are working a thousand times harder than latinos and african-american women but eleanor, i do agree with you that this moment can't just be about conviction of a police officer. if there is going to be meaningful change, it's got to

be broader. folks are focusing on the body cameras, on the police officers. >> that's real important. peter, in the earlier segment you mentioned that we don't know how many police officers kill african-american men, anybody, because those statistics are not kept. this false equation. if you compare the number of black men who guilt killed by police and other black men. we don't know. those numbers aren't kept? >> in ferguson, it was striking how little political engagement there has been from the black community. it's as though they kind of gave up. i think now you do see some renewed interest and they are understanding maybe they can get elected and they are going to push for more representation on the police force. >> yes. >> and a piece, i think, in this morning's "post" or "time"s about st. louis not having any kind of oversight for police matters, which many other

jurisdictions have. and they are going to push for that. so these kind of structures are important. the system is stacked against african-americans. they never get the benefit of the doubt, and now, i think we are at least talking about putting more counter structures in place. particularly in places like ferguson, which, let's face it, most of us have never heard of until this happened. host: paul butler, i mentioned before you came out here that one of your titles is that you have been arrested. >> i have. host: very quickly, what happened? >> i was a prosecutor, the highest profile case in the department of justice against a u.s. senator. during that time, i got arrested for a crime that i didn't commit. basically, there was a dispute about a parking space. it was funny because neither i nor the woman who i was in the dispute with owned a car. i was trying to be an entrepreneur like you like us to be. yes have a car at a parking

space but i rented. this woman believed that it was hers, she had the right to rent it. so she started harassing the person who i was renting it to, didn't care when i showed her that lease and eventually she called the police and told them that i had run up to her and pushed her. that was her story. it turned out that she was a snitch. she worked with the cops. the cops came. they saw me. at that time, i was a young black man and they took me off to jail. so, you know, it was in one sense extraordinary. in another sense, you know, my name is legion. as i say in the book, that incident made a man out of me. it made a black man out of me because so many black men have stories like that. but things worked out fine for me. things worked out fine because i could afford the best lawyer in a city. the jury came back with a verdict in less than 5 minutes. things worked out well for me because, you know, i could look

like the kind of black man that a jury didn't want to send for prison. things worked out fine for me because i had gone to yale and harvard. the other thing, i was innocent. >> didn't at the end of the day seem like the most important reason why things worked out fine for me. if you think about an experience that helps you understand, you know, how most young black men and women are who don't have the kind of opportunities that i had to go to the great schools that i went to, you know, it really does change the way that you think about them. it makes you less about pointing your finger at them and lecturing them about personal responsibility and really wanting the great american dream that i have had the opportunity to experience to be open to all. >> it's an unfortunate story but you would have to believe the woman only pressed those charges and called the cops because they were black, not because of the argument over the parking space.

>> i think the police were more likely to arrest me. >> the woman, she was just as much a part of it. >> it certainly came out at the trial that she had mental issues. >> not racial issues? mental? >> she had issues. host: kevin calling in from willsburg, west virginia, 53 years old. kevin, very quickly, allegations about yourself and go ahead and make your comment on "race in america". >> good morning. i am a self-employed entrepreneur. >> that's basically what i have done my whole life. i would just like to quickly tump. i feel that there is reverse discrimination going on. and, you know, it shouldn't be about whether you are black american, white american or americans. this is a country where if you

work hard and believe in yourself, you can 6 succeed. no matter where you came from. i have lost businesses and had successful businesses. it's not about the color of my skin. it's about attitude and willingness to dig down deep and work hard. you know, i think a big problem with blacks -- and i am not prejudice -- is, you know, they -- they play the race card, and it hurts them. employers are afraid to hire them because if there is an issue at work, they will say, well, it's because i am black, i am being picked on. maybe it's because you are not doing your job. one of the callers made a comment about race.

she basically got crucified in the media. you listen to the black comedians and every other word is the "n" word. and it's okay, and i don't think it's okay. i don't think they should do that because, you know, white people hear them saying that and think that it's okay. it's not. it's wrong. and i -- host: kevin, we've got a lot on the table there. armstrong williams, what did you hear from that gentleman? >> there is definitely a racial double standard in this country. there is no question. for me, as a conservative, some of the things that professor butler can say that i certainly cannot say. i will say it but the bar is different. yes. i mean even the use of the "n" word. even if someone who is a minority said what paula butler,

she would never have lost her business if they were black. i don't like what he said in terms of black people. you know, it's just, you know, they are just this mindset -- there is this double standard that is perpetrated by the media to make us think that we are different and suffering and yeah action it is true if the n word, the bad word, nobody should be allowed to say it. i don't care what context you said it. it's an ugly, awful word and what it could jurs up is the most loatheful part of our history. nobody should be able to use it. host: what did you hear from kevin? >> i thought of vice president cheney and his insistens that everything he had done in his life, he did on his own and then you go back and you look and you see, you know, various government assistance that his parents got, scholarships he was able to take advantage of, you

know, a whole, you know, public system in this country. i mean it's wonderful to talk about individualism, but we are all reliant on what government does for us and it same to me government does more for some people than it does for others. >> armstrong williams, you mentioned that you are a conservative. i am going to read a tweet here this is from tiki. and you can take this. i think you will -- let me just read it: i am an armstrong house product is what she tweets in. i think she is going with sometimes we hear that conservatives, blacks are house slaves. >> people are shaped by their experiences. obviously she doesn't know me. she listens to what i say, and she makes a judgment. >> that's the beauty of free speech in america. you have a right to express yourself, and i will defend that. i don't have to worry about what

she is implying. i know who i am. >> that's all that matters is. host: eleanor clift, conservative african-american, is that correct? >> well, i think, you know, the history of this country has made them -- has made democrats out of african-americans. i mentioned earlier that i lived in atlanta. when i moved to atlanta from new york, i was surprised to find black republicans, and the daily world, which was the local black newspaper, was republican-owned. and i realized that that went back to the days of lincoln and politics and how the federal government reacted changed the voting patterns of african-americans. i don't think anything is sealed in perpetuity forever. i think republicans could attract more african-american votes. you see rand paul out there as being pretty aggressive about it. i still think it's -- he's got a

tough road because i don't think he offers giovanvery many polic that would that appeal to blacks. you see black conservatives coming around to the idea that our prisons are really stacked against african-americans and looking at reducing sentences and that sort of thing. politics is very much involved here. it goes to the actions of the policies of the federal government. here, i think, paul is very correct that the policies of administrations going back for a long time have played a role in the kind of structural racism that still exists. host: we have callers on this program in the "washington journal" say, i can't understand why a black person would be a conservative. s? >> i look at white women and say the same thing. i mean, you know, i have my beliefs and it's hard to understand how other people don't feel the same way. but in this country, over and

over, different people look at the same set of facts and come to different conclusions. >> that's what's going on. host: what do you think of that tweet? >> i think that's pretty offensive. host: paul butler? >> i have a lot of disagreements with my friend, armstrong but i don't question his blackness or his commitment to african-americans or racial justice. i think he is totally wrong, but i think he is speaking in good faith. but what i was concerned about the caller is, he has a view that i think is shared by conservative folks on the supreme court, that the main discrimination problem now is discrimination against white folks so if you look at where the court is on voting rights and affirmative actiontion and school desegregation, i think that's pretty much what chief justice john roberts and scalia and clarence thomas and that's flat-out wrong. host: you are a friend of clarence thomas? >> yes. he is my meantor.

i worked for him. he is 1 of the reasons i evolved into the person i am today. i don't think of myself in a racial way. i am a conservative. i believe in traditional values like my parents. >> my values and beliefs comes from the scripture of the bible. >> that's my belief system. this is what i try to do in my struggles and striving every day. i was clearly in the image of god. so that is the image of how you i see myself, trying to be a godly person, not black, white, or any other things. i see myself because i was deflated god's image, i've got to be good. there is nothing i cannot do because to me, that is my model in myt in life, not human being who is flawed. my striving is to try to be, an imperfect being" and paul is right and these are good people. we just have different perspective. and i know how hard he fights for these injustices and we need

it. but i fight in a different way th but our goals are the same. we take different tactics to get there. host: samuel, gulfport, mississippi, 40 years old. quickly about yourself, samuel. go ahead and make your comment. caller: first of all, i am a truck driver now. i go all over theplace. i live in different xhub communities. i was raised here at 7 years old, moved out west to california. no place other than oakland, california. aim white male. but i am human is where it's at. i think everything should pull that card and, you know, humans, human beings, right, wrong, whatever, we've got to do what we have to do to put this police issue, this ferguson issue. okay? it was my opinion on this, the cameras on the cops.

they ondon't only need to be on the cops on the streets. they need to be on the cops in the prisons and the jails and everything else because that is what is my opinion, again, is running the gangs and, you know, the black community is more -- here, i think they are bleeding grounds, the project housings, i think is breeding grounds for lost kids with no direction in life. not only white, black, hispanic, everywhere and everywhere in the united states, people need to get a direction. host: you identified yourself as a white male born in mississippi. do you think your attitude toward race is different than your parents'?

caller: of course. host: different than your kids caller: i had my first-born a year ago. his will definitely be different. you know, my mom, yes. you know, my mom was, you know, a straight bigot. i couldn't bring -- i couldn't bring any black friends, you know, home to eat at the table, you know, but i was only 7 or 8 years old. through that time, while we were living here. california was a different story. you know, i had more black friends now and i always had more black friends than i had white friends or any other friends because the way -- the way i relate is, you know, related to the black man, you know, was the struggles in the streets with the police. if i had -- if i was walking down the street with a black guy and i was, you know, i was

dressed hip to the code, i was treated just like him with, you know, through the police. they wouldn't just search him down. we were looking like we were up to no good. host: thank you. i want to respond but he used the term "the black community" and t"the projects." when you hear those terms, are those code words in any way to you? >> well, i think that when folks used words like ghetto or projects, those are code words for african-americans so, you know, lopez has a book about politics where he talks about these folds that especially politicians use, because now, know one is going to say, i don't want to hire you because you are black about they will

make racial appeals. samuel, you said you are a veteran. thank you for your service. i think that the point about segregation is important because we know that african-americans 50 years after brown versus board of education still live in an extraordinarily segregated environment. it's not about access to white people, per se, but it's about having access to the goodies that come with white folks like better schools, having better services from all government sources including the police so so segregation is really the focus of a lot of the efforts to improve racial justice because that's the source, segregated homes and neighborhoods are the source of a lot of the problem. host: juanita, 67 years old, savannah, georgia caller: thank you.

i want to tell paul that i really thank him for what he is saying. i live in a household with my mother who is 98 years old. she has always told us her biggest fear in life was raising her black son. she said, if i am going to get through to turn down the one who is still struggling to get up. my brother at the age of 17, his life was taken from him, accused of armed robbery. they fill these young children's minds while they are young. they get people who have done fight to sit up there with their shirt and neck ties on to help put down the one who is scuffling. when you come out of a household

with no food to eat and get up to go to school in the morning, it's nothing but terror. the black man has been put down in this country and over the world during his life. you are talking about the murder of this young man. there is murder going on every day when you see young men been picked up in the penitentiary. >> that's murder. >> that's murder. you see the mother is left with nothing. the black man has gone back. let's go back to 1926 or 27, the black wall street. was emmett allowed to get killed and his mother died in the '90s? there was hanging and lynchings. they over power black people doing the slavery because my mother said, out of every slave

house, there was 50 slaves to 200 whites. and if you did something wrong, they would walk to your house and beat you completely down. we didn't flee from this country. we were broken down in all kind of ways. to have a black man come and teach us, we have only been taught what they teach us in school, belief in crist first columbus. you have to believe in the bible because this is where it's at. we have been let down by our black people who fought and put in partitioned slavery. they get up and forget about the bottom rail. what you talk about now? we talking about race or murder?

we could talk about race. race will last us until the time we are dead and gone. i saw my mother with welts on her back. my mother, everything they created in statesburg, georgia, has been taken from them. they didn't ever have a whi beautiful lawn. black women chair hair. i said if a black man sleep with you all, y'all are the most powerful women in the world. i was in california irvine, a white man told me his biggest fear was the black man's penis. you have that happen this summer in mississippi when they stopped a white woman. how big was the black man's penis? look how low-grade they put us? when you put a person in a hog pen, what more you expect out of it you see a politician, plaque

politicians come around when it's time for them to get elected. we been stepped on by people sitting there with their collars on who made it off of our backs. i marched in the '60s. i scuffle. i am a single parent. i am a chef. i got fired for cooking too m h brussel sprouts. how is that? host: juanita, thank you for calling in. let's just get a reaction to some of the things she had to say. armstrong williams? >> listen, my heart goes out to her. obviously she is not only filled with pain of the past but also the present. and obviously, that stirs up that mindset and hopefully justice will become blind and

innocent men and women and whomever will not be brutalized like animals. we have not mentioned and i want to say everything is brutalized by the police. not just black people. a lot of people lapping to the show who may not look like the people on this panel will tell you the police is cruel. they have beaten pregnant white women. i am sure if that woman had been black, they would have said it was racism. the issue today is no other issue coming across is law enforcement, their training more so than the issue of race than anything else. 67-year-old southern black woman told us her story, 98-year-old mother. you are from south carolina. have you heard that story before? >> in fairness. host: back to south carolina. your parents. did you ever hear of lynchings when you were growing up?

>> no. not of lynch, but i have heard about the cruelty of people but never about lynching. host: eleanor clift? >> the long and mostly terrible history of race in this country is very fresh in most if not all african-american families. when you think that the attorney general, his white sister, vivian malone, was one of the students that integrated the university of alabama in the 1960s, so this is a fresh wound and you could say that b ferguson happened, it's like pulling the band-aid off and we examine the wound all over again. so the way this woman spoke, it was almost like poetry. it was the way she we have her various elements of her story together. it's quite heart-wrenching and i think that white folks in this country have to understand, you know, the pain on the other

side, which is why now we have this reaction in ferguson and i think that the symbol of the hands up "do not shoot", that symbol will live on. host: paul butler? >> it was heart-wrenching and i want to think her for calling and telling folks her experiences because, you know, a lot of times when african-americans talk about race, people say we are playing the race card. the fact is it's not easy to hear these stories or to tell these stories and so when people do tell them, it really is a vote of confidence from the american people to hope that there really can be change if folks just understand. the other thing that i thought was interesting was the way she focused on black men, which a lot of african-american women do. god bless them. she also said her mother had welts on her back. so, it's not only black men or men of color who experienced

discrimination. it's the whole community. again, black women just make or just they make less money than black men. they are more likely to live below the poverty line. a lot of programs only focus on black men. it's not racial justice if you leave half of the race out. host: her mother was born in 1960, been through quite a bit in race relationships in this country. eleanor clift, is it helpful that al sharpton went out to ferguson and jesse jackson went out to ferguson? >> i think here again, i think the people in ferguson welcomed sharpton initially and i think they recognized he was the one who brought the trayvon martin case to national attention. i think some folks remember his checkered history going way back when and wonder if he is the best, you know, civil rights leader, but he happens to have -- he has a platform. he was there. and i think the people in

ferguson appreciate the attention. what bothers them the most is they feel they haven't been heard. they will welcome, you know, any leader who will listen to them and bring their story fonational attention. host: susan, 50 years old, in general. tell us quickly about yourself. caller: hi. i am a single parent and raise my children 17 years by myself. i have been discriminated by the system. when i went and was had a white police officer, had to experience brutality of domestic violence for years. and got no help from the police community. so, i can understand

the trauma. first of all, i think you have to understand that we white policemen, 50% of them in the state of new jersey cannot take their guns home because of the amount of domestic violence going on their households. so, if you really think they are going to be desensitized and go out and do their jobs, we are kidding ourselves. there was so much domestic violence in the homes offlers police officers. host: i apologize i am going to rush you a little bit. paul butler, the lead story this morning in "the new york times," a lot of papers, the intalz administration has called for a review of the militarization of police departments. is there going to be changes? >> yes. that's an important

first step. you know, the system now is reversed. the military surplus weapons can go to local police departments. they just have to apply and show some kind of loose need but where it gets weird is then when they get these tanks and ak-47s, they have to use them within a year or the government threatens to take them back. so, you know, it's like who was it chertoff said if you put a gun on the stage, it has to go off. >> that's what happens here we need common sense reforms. it's gratifying to know that the police department is listening to especially african-americans who have led the call for more responsible police practices. >> i agree with that. i mean the images that were presented initially out of ferguson, you thought you were witness something going on iraq or syria. >> we don't think we treat our citizens that way. but it turns out that we do. maybe some jurisdictions, you

know, big cities need some of this armament, but ferg season it seems very much over the top and they seem like they are not at all trained to use it. tazer. a tazer would have been much more effective in dealing with michael brown but they say tazers aren't 100% effective. maybe they ought to make them more effective plus the fact there was a second police officer in the car with them, with wilson, i believe. >> could be the baku with the gun. i think there is going to be some definitely review of the procedures they used in ferguson and whether those are the ones they were trained. also, a story came out that t theple was with another police department which was so ineffective and so apparently arrive with racism that they fired everybody in the department and hired a new. some of the people, you could apply for the job, but this particular officer instead got a job in ferguson.

you know, that doesn't necessarily say that he was part of the problem there. but we are beginning to learn a little bit more about him and, the training that he might have gotten. host: armstrong williams? >> it would be an incredible high bar to ever justify using that military equipment anywhere against american citizens. for children to understand, azle nor mentioned what that represents when you look to iraq and afghanistan to places like syria, that's war. we are not -- we don't have -- these are not war zones here we may have out of control intiingsz they are not war zones. they have recalled all of this equipment because they are shipping it to iraq because the equipment is needed to carry out the new mission. to me, there is never a reason. when i watch that on t.v., i was confused as to what i was watching. i couldn't believe it.

for flooerz, they are like kids, excited to use this equipment. they got an opportunity to use it. so here we go. and they walk around but they don't understand how that further insights chaos in those communities. >> this seems to be an issue that liberals conservatives are both kind of jelling on. >> crist justice reform, it's not that unusual for there to be this bi-partisan support. so, if you think of the number of people who we are locking up in the state, we lock up more people than any other country in the world, lots of conservatives understood that's a problem because it's inefficient government spending. we are not getting the bang for the buck, lots of faith-based conservatives have come on board because it's about redeltion and giving folks a second chance. we see libertarians like senator paul who are appalled by the way that we are treating american citizens like they are the enemy. it is an issue where there is a

huge -- there is a huge consensus there. we need more effective criminal justice. host: carol, 52 years old, hinesburou gh, illinois. >> caller: hi. i live in hinesborou gh, south of the champagne-urban a lot na my situation, my father, while he was world war ii and he was in the korean war, he was a bigot. not only towards african-americans but also towards he he had a name for every kind of race if you understand what i mean. he was in the navy for 20 years and i think some of that is

generational. th i think a lot of the race relation problems are fear-based. i grew up on the east coast. having a father who was a bigot was very disturbing to me growing up. i was embarrassed. i worked at the va for 22 years and working at the va, i met so many people of dye verse backgrounds, staff, but patients as well. and various backgrounds. i had that experience. i am a good person.

i love to learn about different people and is ask them personally about what that their cultural believes. what kind of things sdmrfrp carol, do you think america's race relations have changed in any way? caller: yes. they have changed. i have hopes for the future because i don't know whether in my lifetime. i find it to be more geographical as to where i am living now and, there are no people of color in this little town i live in. the next town over, maybe very few. i find that people who have very

limited experience with people of dye ver of -- of diverse backgrounds are fearful. their minds are not open. they are not open to expanding their experience with other people. host: thank you, ma'am. eleanor clift, she referenced you early on? >> she said her father was a bigot. my father was an immigrant. actually, i don't really any bias against african-americans. it was mostly against other ethnicities and kind of this need to feel like you were on the top. i think he came from a tiny island that was originally danish and became german. and i remember a lot of sunday dinners and my punch line always was, jesus christ was a jew. i thought, you know that was --

that just ended the debate as far as i was concerned. so, i think i probably learned some of my arguing skills at the sunday dinner table. so, i think my father for -- i thank my father for that. he had a lot of other qualities. he is long since gone. he came here as a teenager and made his way working in delcal cat he delicatessen. i don't remember him ever taking a vacation. work ethic, he had thathat. >> did you ever hear your parents say something about white people? >> of course. >> that's what we can say. >> that's not what you can say. of course. of course with the inter-racial dating, yeah, but it's the tone in which this is spoken and how

it's conveyed to children who are so impressionable and want to emulate their parents. my parents were careful in how they explained these things. my father said, which is interesting, boy, my brothers and sisters, i always wanted to own my own farm, i want you to have a different experience, working for your father because it will better prepare you for life. he said he worked hard to buy that land in 1944 to make sure that never happened. host: paul butler, personal experience with your parents? >> my parents, but other members of my family were, i think, rightly very suspicious of white people. so the message was that i shouldn't trust them because, you know, no matter -- basically they wouldn't have my best interests at heart even in a northern city like chicago where i grew up. but the important thing is that that kind of behavior, those

kind of racist attitudes are learned and they can be unlearned. and now, we are coming up with ways to train police officers to know about what we call implicit bias and to unlearn that. now, officers are more likely to shoot at an unarmed blackman than they are at an armed white man. it's about -- i am learning racism not only, you know, for a kum ba ya moment but for cops' safety. host: let's hear from arthur. we lost all of our calls there sorry about that, guys. >> that's the ends of our show. >> okay. host: a bad segway there at the end. i apologize. i thought we would have one more caller. thank you. i am chad williams. eleanor clift, paul butler. we appreciate you all being on, very much in this conversation

on race. well, tomorrow, we are going to continue our discussion of race issues. we are going to look at the civil rights division of the department of justice with bill yoemans, a former assistant attorney general for civil rights: we will begin a series on the modern political campaign movement. thanks for being with us...

>> joining us from indianapolis, mike pence. >> we have a national politics reporter and read epstein, the national political reporter with the wall street journal. >> thank you for being here. you have been mentioned as a possible two thousand 16 presidential contender. give me an assessment of how you see the emerging republican field. the republican party has a very deep bench.