for those who want to follow your tweets during the debate, they can find you @severincarrell. thanks for the insight. >> no problem. thank you. >> we had live to bbc's debate over whether scotland should be an independent country. >> mr. darling. ♪

[applause] >> hello, and welcome to glasgow, home to one of the finest collections, as the campaignnts referendum enters its final stage of the campaign. leads the scottish national party which has been leading this outage independence party for 18 years. alastair darling. it is the second time that that men have gone head to head, and they do so before the first

ballots go out. it is the eve of the poll. in the next 90 minutes, our guests will face russians from members of our audience, from me, and from one another. i will explain more about the format in a moment. first, the opportunity for both men to make opening statements. the coin tosson for you have over two minutes. >> thank you. this is an extraordinary time for us all. the eyes of the world are indeed focused on scotland. recent history we have stood at the crossers. in 1979, we did not get the parliament we voted for, and torryd have gone 18 of government. margaret thatcher. opportunitytook our , and since the parliament came to scotland, life has been

better. we introduced free care for this elderly. removed tuition fees for the next generation of students. we helped by providing security and gave opportunity to the young. when we have problems like the current threat to the fairness -- shipyards, we act decisively to the same jobs. but it is much, far too much, that is still controlled at westminster. the good not stop the bedroom tax rate we cannot stop illegal wars. of --not stop the spread in this prosperous hundred. we cannot stop countless billions being wasted on weapons of mass distraction. now we have the opportunity to change all that. three weeks on thursday, we can take matters into scottish hands. no one wants to go back.

to finish thewant home rule charter. run thely no one will affairs of this country better than the people who live and work in scotland. no one cares more about scotland. , they cannot1979 tell us we cannot do it. just like them, they are wrong. we are a rich nation, a resourceful people. we can create a prosperous nation. a real vision for the people of scotland. this is our time. it is our moment. let us do it now. [applause] >> our second opening statement comes from alastair darling. mr. darling, you also have two minutes. >> this is it.

he is asking us to take his word for it on everything. trust what he says. sorry, i can't. the basic difference between mr. me, his first priority is to create a separate state, no matter what the risk and what the costs. while he has been spending the last two years, i've have been listening. i know that people want change, but they also want security on jobs, pensions, on their children's future. that is why my messages that no thanks will not mean no change. on taxes,y the -- welfare, the makes sense to decide here. we have delivered before and we will deliver again. startow we scots will voting by post. so we need answers. tonight, right here, and right now. the currency, no answers.

let me tell you why currency matters. currency is about jobs in huge numbers. currents is about what we pay for the weekly shop. rates,ut interest orchestrates, and the value of our pensions. the money we use is about the public service upon which we all the men. that is the real threat to our national health service, not the ones he is trying to scare us with. the questions have grown. what about oil? last week the north sea oil stark warning. again, are we going to place all our bets on alex salmond alone being right? sharedted kingdom is not risks and rewards with our neighbors. the part of something bigger gives us opportunity and security as well as our scottish

identity and decision-making. this is a decision for which there is no turning back. but our children and the generations that follow will have to live with that decision. linesght hear good from him till i cannot that good lines is not always a good answer. we have to say no thanks. [applause] >> thank you, both, for those opening remarks. you could say that tonight's debate is a game of four sections because there will be questions of the economy, on scotland, on scotland's place in the world, and it what happens after the referendum. russians will come from members of our audience. -- questions will come from members of our audience. this will include a balance of yes and no supporters as well as

undecided reporters. others have been invited to take the bbc.e bbc -- by first question is on the economy, from jean smith. jean? be financially safe in an independent scotland? .> a alistair darling >> a lot of that depends on the currency we use. the bedrock of our economy is the pound sterling. it belongs to the united kingdom as a whole. the bank of england stands behind that. and behind that, the u.k. government. from my experience as chancellor, when i had to do with the collapse of the bank system in 2008, the security that comes from covering a country that was large enough to --l with a collapsing bank

it meant i could do something about it. my irish counterpart, my icelandic counterpart, were not so lucky because they were not big enough. that is one of the reasons why i believe scotland is better and stronger together is by being part of the united kingdom we have that greater security. if you look the wider economy, scotland has a lot of going for it. businesses are doing well, but i would argue that is because of the united kingdom. despite the united kingdom. when i look at jobs for our children and grandchildren, in a pretty uncertain world, i am convinced it is in our best interest to be proud of what we do in scotland, rothbard entity, but we are equally proud to share in the wider united kingdom because we get something better, greater, greater security added to that as well. alex salmond. scotland compared to other

wealthy countries, we are 14th in the organization of economic and cooperation development. alastair rate a question. let me say exactly what we want to do. i am looking for a mandate so we can share the pound in a sense of the union with the rest of the united kingdom. that is best because england and is exportireland are market. it makes sense. i am also looking -- i know there are other options for scotland. we could have a scottish currency like sweden or norway. we could have a fixed rate. no one can stop us from using the pound sterling. it is internationally traded currency. we believe that the best option is to have the

pound sterling, so that we pay our mortgage, we get our wages in the pound. i'm aching the best option -- i am speaking the best option for coming keeps the pound sterling. [applause] >> i can tell you that we will be coming to the currency come up at the next part of the discussion, i would like to focus on an issue that has become topical over the last few days, and that is oil. you mentioned a leading figure in the north sea question, just how much black gold that is left of the extracted. since then, other prominent figures have said that there might be more than he anticipates. alistair darling, isn't it the case that the figures from the u.k. government independent office of budget responsibility are too low? they say only 10 billion barrels. >> look at the last history of

the 20 years. successes of her meds have been too optimistic about the amount of production, and the amount of revenue we get from the north sea. the office of budget responsibility, which is independent of government, it has given estimates, and it has proved to be too optimistic. i will give an example. in the last couple of years, the amount of revenue we have got from the north sea has been 5 billion pounds less than what was expected. at 5 billion pounds, that is equivalent to more we spend in schools in scotland and almost half a we spend on health service. if you lost that some in any one year, -- sum in any one year, it means for scotland it would have to make good of that either by raising taxes elsewhere or cutting back public expenditure. >> the public attention estimates are far more than the -- do you think they're too low? thectually, if you look at

have been too optimistic. the problem has been looking ahead and never extract is as much north sea as people expect. it was mentioned by the government to see how much we could get extract. he's probably one of the leading experts in the north sea. he hasn't discussed the route is something being wildly optimistic about the amount of oil they are going to get. i hope we get more oil revenues from the north sea. our problem is if you do not, and remember an independent scotland would get about 15% of its revenues from the north sea -- >> [indiscernible] i am quite sure of that. it is a smaller portion for the u.k.. on aaying we are taking huge amount of risk because north d.c. revenues -- north sea revenues are volatile -- if it went wrong -- alistair point that

that the -- to be chesapeake in it0 he said it was not that had become part of the conservative party. that is what he said. [applause] >> [indiscernible] you asked me not to interact me. please do me the -- ian woo is a veryd respected figure in the oil industry. up to 18.5 union erol's -- billion barrels. is 1nancial terms, that tirillion pounds. it is a lot of billions, a lot of money.

party, all the people in the world, who argue the position of substantial amounts of oil and gas is somehow i curse, as opposed to an asset. every other country in the world - [indiscernible] >> we're approaching the wholesale value of oil. what the government should get -- >> [indiscernible] >> the north sea has been a colossal boon to this country for 40 years. what you come away from his once it is gone, it is god. every barrel we take out of the one barrels last. revenues you lost more than you spent on the schools in scotland. >> [indiscernible] >> it is the key that your own

government forecasts have been downgraded by a billion pounds for the first year of independence. this is a volatile -- which would be more important to the economy as an independent scotland. don't you feel -- scotland'sy 15% of overall economy. overall% of norway's economy. i have not seen it do norway much harm. i would say the last years have been great. 's colleaguesing have been saying that that research would be running out by 2000. says there is a wholesale value. let's say 20% as revenue that goes to the government. that is 200 billion pounds. six billion pounds a year.

the reality is that every other country in europe to give their eye teeth to get the oil and gas. it cannot be that it is anything other than a substantial asset. [applause] on the basissing of the source of revenue that is a very volatile -- that would make up a very substantial part of scotland's income. i argue it is a great thing to have come to realize so much on something them to and master when you publish a white paper pages, there 650 was just one year, and the estimates you made have proved to be wrong. they are much lower than you thought. wel people that somehow can't rely on this. it is gambling our future. [indiscernible] [applause] i want to move to our second question on the economy.

it comes from kathy. >> i would like to know in an independent scotland, i would like an answer, executive a kind of currency if we do not use sterling. >> alex salmond you said what was the definitive answer. >> i had the opportunity to lay out the options for scotland. for thenking a mandate people of scotland in this referendum. i want to people have for the proposition that we should share sterling in a union. that sense of a, common currency best for scotland, as for the rest of u.k. that mandate is crucial. that is why i want the people of scotland to support, because if we go into the negotiation said ister, those are the options. i laid out in some detail earlier on. toould go as first minister

argue for the bank of scotland, getting a mandate from the people of scouotland. you're going to negotiate with that mandate, arguing for what is best for scotland, and that is keeping the pound sterling. [applause] the point about the currency union is both parties have to agree to it. yes, there is they sovereign will of the scottish people, but also we have to accept the will of the rest of u.k. when you look at the views of the whole country, the hostility to the eurozone, why would you expect we do not want to join euro, you're taking a huge risk if you assume it is

going to fall into place. i think a currency union would be bad for scotland because our budget would have to be decided and approved not by us, but why what would then be a foreign country, because that is what happens in the eurozone. every entry has to defend its budget through approval. the question that was asked, if we do not have a currency union, what is plan b? three weeks ago when i asked he does notwas, think we are going to like the answer. it does not matter for alex salmond what the answer is. because ike to know, do not want to be using somebody else's currency with no central bank, rotten public services. if it is the euro, i do not want that either. with the scottish currency, we saw what people get when they get new currency -- i want to know what plan b is. aliou do not have to point,

stair. [applause] plan b's forthree poun the price of one bi. you have got three plan b's tonight. [indiscernible] plan, wille act that you as a democrat accept that is the will of the scottish people? [indiscernible] would you expect the sovereign will of the scottish people -- >> i have always said -- [applause] >> will you accept the outcome? i happen to think and so do a lot of people in this country, that a currency union see that

you are proposing is the second best option for scotland. the pound sterling only works if you have an economic and political union -- >> i want to hear from numbers of the audits, if you would like to contribute some points. it is not the case that you have not given us your plan b. you said no to the union, you do not support that. the white paper says that if somebody wants to argue the case for a separate scottish country, they need to win an election. it leaves us with the point of independence, if we cannot have a currency union, we will use the pound anyway. isn't that right? >> you're right to point out that we do not need the aggression -- permission to use the currency. the argument is they will deny us the assets of the bank of england, the financial assets of the country. the reason that would not happen is if you deny us the financial assets amended u.k., the people watching at home in england and wales tonight and northern

ireland, will get stuck with all the liabilities. there is no way given the enormous debts that alistair darling buildup that any u.k. -- is when to let scotland off with 5 billion pounds a year of the debt payments we have offered to make as far as a sensible union. that is why it is good for scotland and for the rest of u.k. [applause] alex, you said a few moments b's.ou had a row of plan >> it is the money we use. it is the value of our savings, the interest rate would pay, the amount of money for public services. it is playing games -- [indiscernible] if we win the referendum -- [indiscernible] >> nobody can hear. alistair darling.

>> of course we could use a -- >> aha. aha. >> the problem is -- [applause] you do not have a central bank. so our financial services cannot exist. [indiscernible] the second problem you have is people'shat use other countries, they have to run a surplus. they cannot ro. you have a huge deficit, you it have to -- you would have to -- that would come out of -- , if the restarling of the united kingdom refuses a currency union, doesn't it leave it laiable? >> [indiscernible]

if your first message in the new world the syria, here is,, and new currency, and we just defaulted on our debt, what do you think that would do to people who are lending us money in the future? [applause] >> the treasury expected liability for all u.k. debt -- you cannot default on a debt that is not yours in the first place. tair a few seconds ago admitted we could use the pound anyway. the chancellor said a few months out ofn he said you walk u.k., you walk out of pound. they cannot stop us using the pound, the most important revelation on this debate. [applause] are you saying, alex salmond, that you would refuse to take a share of debt? be stopped from

using the pampered what they can do is deny us the access and financial assets held by the bank of england. %he bank of england owes 27 of u.k. debt. we are offering to pay a fair share-- >> [indiscernible] >> obviously if the u.k. parties take all the financial assets of the united kingdom, then we have stopped the financial liability to the united kingdom. hear from one of the members of our audience who have not had a say so far. >> question for alistair. >> if you could make it as a point rather than a question. >> what would be the best of an independent scotland? in a will pick that up moment. the gentleman in the front row

in the middle with the black jacket and the blue shirts. side seems to make a lot of promises without speaking to the other parties. as a member of the european union, we will be required to take on the euro within a matter of years. >> ok, and the lady in the back row there. the think whether we use pound or not, regardless at this point, i think we will have some kind of currency union. i think the problem is under what situations we will have, and we have a central bank, the government work [indiscernible] >> thank you very much. perhaps you would like to pick up on the euro question. >> can i say to the lady who was just spoken, our proposition that we should have a fair share of financing the debt would be accumulated by the united kingdom as part of a sensible

currency arrangement. as far as the gentleman's euro concern, we cannot be forced into the euro. joining that euro is voluntary. the gentleman that spoke first, ask the most important question,. 190 countries in the world with a currency arrangement. why would scotland be the only country in history that could not have yet party to run its own affairs? >> as a former chancellor, what would your advice be? >> all fallback positions are second best for scotland. > it is possible in two weeks' time, you know what in your view is not good for this country,

what would be the best plan b option? >> i know what i would do for -- [indiscernible] >> you are not giving one either. >> i'm clear that the pound sterling is best for scotland, but the pound sterling is not -- >> the value of the pound bank of england stands behind it, and u.k. government says behind that. that is why the pound sterling is acceptable. the lady was asking about the euro. it is a case that every country that has turned a european union 96 has been obliged to join the euro. we have seen discussions of what happened there, but in relation to the currency union, even if you do not want -- i cannot understand why the -- because be borrowing would not

decided in error numeral -- in >> our next section of the debate is on scotland at home. the next question comes from linda. >> i want to know how you would change the nha or anyone, anyone a particular, evil living with lifelong conditions, chronic illnesses. that thesay to linda most important thing about the national health service for people with chronic conditions and all of us is that we keep it safe in public hands and keep it properly financed. the condition is that we cannot --forced to privatize the

for people watching and rick -- in wales tonight, where the financial pressure has come under the budgets from london, people walking -- watching in england have a march taking place at the moment going through yorkshire tonight, campaigning against the privatization of the national health service. the danger for scotland is this -- if england goes down the road of privatization and general cuts to public spending, it is not because they can force us to privatize the health service in scotland, they can't, financial pressure makes things extremely difficult for the health service in scotland. to have a health service that we can all trust and rely on we need one with financial control and policy control so that we can keep the national health service as the greatest public institution in scotland. [applause]

>> the health service is critically important to all of us in scotland. it is probably one of the most cherished institutions that there is in the country. that is one of the reasons that i think that the united kingdom needs that strength and security that we can fund with the pressures of an aging population here in scotland. quite rightlyand the total control over the nhs comes from the scottish parliament and government in terms of policy and in terms of financing. the scottish parliament can decide how much or how little it spends in the public sector and private sector. the scottish government has pounds of nhsion money through the private sector in order to meet its targets. both governments are doing that. the point is because of the strength and security of the , that is the way

to guarantee spending on the national health service. i'm glad we are discussing it. theye last debate mentioned the nhs once. since that debate we have been subjected to a scare campaign principally aimed at what is going on in england. [jeers from ground] -- crowd] the allegationat was simply untrue and a complete fabrication. of that coverage and more of a realization that we actually all one the nhs to do well, we all wanted to be there but to do that you need funding and frankly taking on is the real threat to the national health service. [applause]

>> i will be seeking further audience contributions in an moment. why could not say that in your point on independence? your this? >> that has been a long-term argument for the case of independence. i have fought the way out very carefully. i am not saying that we can be forced to privatize the health services scotland, we have operational control of the national health service. i am saying the general cutbacks in england and a move towards privatization will impose financial pressure on the national health service and if we want to see what could what could happen in scotland tomorrow we only need to look at wales today. the labor administration has needed to cut back in real terms because of the budgetary pressure. in scotland today it is extraordinarily difficult. the overall scottish budget has been cut i ate percent.

point is that the budget for the nhs in england continues to rise, so in what year do you think it will fall? >> that is exactly why i said the overall budget of scotland has been cut by eight or send. if we have decided to protect the national health service, that is spending that means the rest of the budget takes a 12% cut. laborwe believe, and believes in england, that there is a privatization agenda in the national health service, it means less public money spent in england knocking on discovery. no one believes that private health service increased public spending. therefore to protect the national health service we have to control it financially and in policy terms, keeping it safe in public hands.

>> let's bring in darling. [applause] why has the shadow health mean warningor about the demise -- >> because there is a big argument going on in scotland and england as to how much private sector provision you can use as part of the overall treatment. in public spending terms, whether the nhs spends money directly or through a private contractor it doesn't make any difference, but there is an important point here throughout the label -- labour government. increasing spending on health increases under the present government and is due to increased in the next few years. do not believe me, there is an article in the times today that made that point, leading me to wonder why. firstly, in the last debate they mentioned the nhs once. in the constitution he published the draft constitution and they were not mentioned at all.

this is all, long as part of the referendum campaign. what i really resent is using scare stories like the one in the hospital the northeast in order to make a point. [applause] >> first of all, then you can both come back in. >> i would like to encourage the undecided, who are do not believe a word that comes out of the mouth of darling. you are a hypocrite. you started the privatization of the health service. yes, you did. >> no, we didn't. the basement of private health companies. one last thing, if you get money -- any more invites to speak at fancy dinners for private health companies, i hope you can feel

the not selling in your shoulder. [applause] >> ok, thank you. darling, isn't the real threat to the scotland government the potential scrapping of the formula from several ministers? money is shared across the u.k., the nations of the u.k.. the gentleman in the middle here. that youe telling me are receiving nhs, then why are you allowing children in england to get private health care? all that does is ignore the service and wages. private conference coming right out of the money from the nhs, helping no one in any shape or form. >> ok. [applause]

in the back. gentleman with a blue t-shirt. what about the post office? will you privatize that, mr. darling? >> let's stick with the national health service. >> i didn't privatize the post office. related to the health service, like every one of us here, most people in this country want to see it strong, thriving health service. that is my concern. i think we can best do that by being part of the u.k. that has high expenditure in the rest of risingted kingdom with a health need in scotland and i don't want to put that at risk. when i look at independent experts who look at the budgetary position in scotland in the years after independence, they have identified a black hole over and above anything that disparity might bring, i don't want to put health services at risk, which is why i am against going down the route

that would wind up with more squeeze and more pressure in a way that i don't think any of us want to see. [applause] the risk to national health service comes from the cup tax in wales, the threat of 25 billion pounds more. the labour party in england are warning loud and clear of the express privatization to the national health service. the labour party in wales say that they have been forced to cut health expenditures because frome budgetary pressure westminster. are you the only person who doesn't realize what is going on in england and wales? unless we establish financial control to protect their own health service. [applause] >> i recognize budgetary constraints everywhere.

texas is what your own people are saying in england. >> this is scaremongering. [applause] >> let's take another question and move it along. and watkins is our next questioner. >> if we are based together, why are we not raced together already? [applause] >> i believe that we can do better, we can be more prosperous and have more options open to us by being proud of what we do in scotland and also having the advantage of being part of the united kingdom. let me give you an example, a few weeks ago i visited one of the most advanced medical research centers in dundee where the people are working on

possible treatments for cancer. dundee attracts a very large share of u.k. research money. these experts were saying to me that if they lose that money by losing the u.k., they will lose the center of expertise. not just important in medical care, but in terms of developing treatments and products as one example, what you take for example as here in glasgow we know that there have been huge problems, but there are a lot of royal navy work here. it depends on the royal navy down the tribe with defense jobs throughout scotland, all examples of where the jobs come from in the future. if we lose those jobs it will put a barrier between those and those businesses with a bad effect on employment prospects. when things are difficult just now for obvious reasons, i

believe we would be making a huge mistake to take on risks we don't need and giving opportunities for children in the generations to come. [applause] can i say, as cross minister i have been watching all week procure shops to try to the appointments there and i am absolutely delighted that we have moved into a position tonight with a prepared bidder at every opportunity and every believe that we will be able to sustain that employment. that is the sort of action we are able to take now with the scottish parliament that we could not take before. as far as other job threats are concerned, the gentleman's question hit the nail on the head. i don't accept that. i think the future for ship holding jobs, for the workers and shop stewards, as they said

last week, by diversifying our skills into the range of merchant vessels, we produced 100 vessels over the last year. shipbuilding employment has gone from tens of thousands to 3000 under the united kingdom. my not see it now as opposed to face the reality in terms of child poverty and the loss of industrial jobs? westminster stands indicted. >> let me try to follow. [applause] >> there are many issues that we could discuss, we are quite pressed for time. the welfare issue that you mentioned, the scottish government estimated that as a being of disability, replaced with a personal independence payment in the coming years more than 100,000 disabled scots lose money.

do you support that reform? we have as a country an obligation to help people who need support, but you need the means to do it. and if you end up in a situation where you cut off opportunities to pay for these things, it will be less likely that you can provide the level of support needed in the future. that is why i think this approach is absolutely wrong. we know people with disabilities and an aging population that will require more medical care. burden on 5t million people when it can be pooled and shared? it makes no sense whatsoever. [applause] taxesem that draws on

from the whole of the united kingdom rather than just those in scotland. gave ther question you answer, there are indeed 100,000 scots falling victim to the welfare reforms. alistair darling did not other to condemn as he went on in his answer the way i believe that the blood disability -- people with disability are being treated. difficult,e a troubled economic time, but the mark of concern is that when you are in difficult economic times you don't take it out on the disabled and families with , enforcing a bedroom tax, the most ludicrous tax of all time. >> isn't that the point? [applause] are tough, when cash is short, we all have to make the difficult choices. >> we made the choice and the scottish parliament.

the westminster government introduced to the bedroom tax. we have taken out resources from the parliament, despite the fact that we don't control social security to concentrate people -- compensate people from the ridiculous argument of a box room for your equipment and suddenly you will lose housing benefits. we have to take and 50 million pounds to compensate and make sure that ordinary scots did not suffer. the welfare without introducing the bedroom tax in the first place. [applause] the bedroom tax is thoroughly needs every respect and to be repealed. what's more, we have said that if we were elected next year it would appeal to the general election. >> i am a labour politician.

[indiscernible] [applause] >> we are moving onto the next section of this evening's debate. both will have the opportunity to cross-examine one another, though they have been doing a fair amount of that so far. they will have a chance to conduct cross examinations provided they don't get too heated. go darling has selected to first. >> i want to go back to currency. crowd] from in the last debate i read in the newspaper that you wanted a better chance to explain your plan b. off you go and tell me. >> [indiscernible] [applause] >> let me try to guess. we think that having the currency arrangement was scotland and in sharing the

pound is best for the united and him, for the reasons i said. i also thought that the other options, the three plan b's -- >> which one? >> the outline to the flexible sweden andke in norway affecting the exchange rate, like hong kong has with the dollar. you admitted it earlier on in the debate. we cannot be stopped from using the pound anyway. [applause] >> three plan b's. >> the reason i am raising it again is because the currency is the foundation of our economy and all that we have to save the value from money and interest rates. i want you to contemplate the impossible. ask yourself your role. what is your plan b? insults trade on

the lack of the day. what are the options? i will explain them to you in great detail and see why you are mandate forith the the people here. the will of the scottish people have a commonsense currency. will you support that option? >> it is a rotten option. >> suppose you did not get a currency union. it is everybody's money. our owngling to have currency or wind up like panama? one of your top advisers said we might have a panamanian solutions. i don't want to be like panama for six minutes. is that your solution?

inthere are 190 countries the world. we have a range of options. where you described all of the currency options as wrong? i is seeking a clear mandate from the sovereign will of the scottish people. you have been asked a number of times, so i will accept the result. will you campaign? [applause] >> i will accept the results. the day after tomorrow people want to know what will happen to the money they've got. what currency will a have without a currency union? in theadmitted it program. we cannot be stopped from using i think that there will be a currency union because if you go down the road of denying us access to the bank of

england, you end up stuck with the debt. toidentally you manage consume 60%. will you be prepared to support this -- sovereign role of the scottish people? >> questions from alistair darling. >> is there a referendum in that respect? let me just ask you about another plan b. all revenues, talking about the were 5 billion pounds less than expected last year, more than we spent on the school's budget. in the u.k. that could be dealt with. if you are an independent country, how would you make up the gap? >> over 25 years they advised acceptance and what they wrote last week was that there was no

black hole in the scottish government's estimate. that they are missing a mountain of that. >> pointed out. forecast that revenues would be 6 billion in 2011. in fact turned out to be $11 billion. develop.as in part to haveat is when you revenues that help us to decrease. lost 6 billion pounds of revenues because production goes down? how do you wake up to the business? >> production is going up. that's why they have invested 30 billion pounds.

>> that comes into the north sea. >> the question from sitting down is that the investment is offset against revenues to increase production. we know the increase is at 80%. -- north seaat or oil production is going up because of the subsidy going into decommissioning. i am asking you, in an independent scotland if you lost revenues on the equivalent that we spend on schools, and just one year how would you make up the difference? >> that is why removed forward with stabilization. >> that is the policy i took forward. >> everybody knows that.

years scotland has spent more. for the last couple of years? >> 8 billion pounds better off as an independent country. >> i know your figures. >> that is a lot of money. >> can you allow me this final minute to get another question? will you hit with a 6 billion pound deficit identified by the international institute of fiscal studies that you quote with approval in your paper? they say that they will have to .ind 6 billion pounds more those studies says it would be a prosperous economy in scotland.

>> listen to me. >> you had a deficit of 150 billion pounds. >> this from the man who undermines the entire economy. >> he can't answer basic questions. >> that is the end of the time. [applause] >> alex hammond, you now have eight minutes to cross examine alistair darling. >> how many children in scotland are estimated to move into poverty by 2020 given the u.k. governments spending cuts? >> too many. the time i was in government you could count -- >> how many? >> it depends on the government policies.

>> a strong and secure economy is needed. >> there are too many children. >> 100,000 children in scotland moving into poverty. that a up price -- is price worth paying for the westminster government? the labour party -- they said they have -- that they will continue with labor -- the labor , is that a price worth paying? itas a society i said we had an obligation to get the children out of policy. stop interrupting.

you as a government have cut one billion pounds from the anti-poverty program. most of whom only have one way out of poverty. people with a disability, these are the people suffering the westminster government. and so, why are you standing here defending this success? >> come on. come on. >> i disagree with your government and that people across parties believe we are better across the united kingdom. ,n the issues of welfare reform on the issues of stopping poverty and making sure that we are a fair and just society, i think we can do that -- >> do you believe -- do you

believe -- >> you are taking on. >> the national health service, they can't run down and privatize those directly. they can start with the resources cutting back on the money from the scottish government. >> the amount of money, the amount of money being spent on the health service has increased. [shouts from the crowd] >> you did decide at the moment how much to spend. >> don't start blaming other people for it. >> it came from the union. >> i know the service workers. working in the health service wants to see it properly funded.

it is for you to decide. >> the cutbacks from westminster? >> you have made the point time and time again. >> it is for you to decide. >> they don't play these games. >> it is a national pub service. >> do your colleagues estimate they should try the system? >> i don't think that you choose between defending the country in the national health service? >> i don't believe it. >> do we choose to believe it? >> i am telling you, there were 13 years i was in government.

spending more money in the future. >> is that a sensible allegation? >> i understand that many people think that it is wrong. [applause] >> answer the question. >> i think we have an obligation to defend this country. >> name three job creating powers. of all, devolving the work program. devolving further. >> what would that be first? >> secondly, it would be making sure that we guaranteed the

unemployed getting back into work. >> i have told you that there is a program for devolving the work into the program. >> part of the united kingdom. >> is this the universe? for the scottish parliament if it they win the day? >> the scottish parliament has full powers over health and education. we have more powers related to welfare. public service creates jobs.

just part of the united kingdom. powers are they transferring to the scottish parliament in order to create more jobs -- jobs? >> i told you. staying part of the united kingdom is the best way of guaranteeing jobs. >> you promised these additions. a powerhouse parliament. >> it is simple. >> although you have got to is what is great for starbucks. >> what army? >> part of the united kingdom.

>> we won't get there on her own. with0,000 children faced disabilities. naming the powers for the parliament. [applause] >> telling me the money we will be using. >> what were you using? >> the time is up. that is the end of our cross examination section. thanks to both of you for that. one of the striking things about this campaign is how many people have become actively engaged in the discussion about the future of holland. the turnout turned out to be 80% and higher. town halls and living rooms are alive with the noise of this

great debate. >> everyone should be voting. it is an important decision to make. >> it is important that everyone should exercise their vote. this is a one-time in a lifetime opportunity. >> looking at the system, what we need is how we understand how this country works and what i want. could be a great moment in history in scotland. >> and employment advisor. >> i work for the scottish national heritage. >> to me the referendum should be an opportunity for the

country to live in and the society we want to live in, impacting employment. >> making sure that our heritage continues. >> get your opinions across. i am, in my country, entailing what will happen to us in the future. trying to be the ones obtain mortgages. setting careers. starting up families. >> it will be historic. >> the constituents get it right. democracy it is wonderful that everyone in scotland gets a choice to choose which way it

goes. >> there are two sections still to come. we will look at what happened after the referendum. first we will look at the place of scotland in the world. this comes from brian connolly. >> what is going to happen to the jobs? to the people? after it is scrapped? the policy will be going into the first election of the independent scotland. the policy is to have the scott -- the fast lane to create a large number of jobs. there are a number of reports over the years that have

as generating more jobs and wasting billions they can never be used. we have identified it as the function of the scottish defense forces. a policy that removes nuclear weapons and weapons of mass destruction because they are a phenomenal waste of money as well as being totally, morally wrong and the policy that gives our undertakings and obligations to a local community. [applause] years time there will be over 8000 jobs in fast lane. not just in relation to trident, but because it is to become the uk's center for the non-trident submarine fleet.

if it were to go it is certain the rest of the summary world would go with it. we could not well afford to lose another 8000 jobs. remember, there are others associated with that. costs, id the understand why people might feel very strongly against those missiles. it won't reduce the amount of nuclear missiles and i think it is fanciful to suggest that a much smaller scottish defense force will require 8000 jobs. i just think it is the wrong thing to do in terms of military terms and jobs. i will throw this out in a

moment, the question is about jobs. >> you talk about a 10 year transition to an independent scotland. how long until there were as many people as you have in the united kingdom? obviously, we have given a 5.5 year timescale. building up conventional scottish defense forces, why not be the headquarters of the scottish defense force? >> the employment is equivalent to what was proposed. >> in the terms of onshore jobs well.l be substantial as ships torently have no

defend royal installations. >> how long would it take? and equally it is 5.5 years. choice.e might make a i think a very sensible choice. it would be sensible not to proceed with the next generation submarines. not to spend 100 billion pounds. >> something the people of england could make. >> what is your perspective?

money on 375 million , leaving the people and you are not assured that they will be replaced? >> not at all. >> the gentleman there? and --n the remove removal of trident, surely that to replacing way the jobs that were lost. [applause] >> a respected think tank has to move itpossible

but it would take until 2028. that is eight years after your proposed timetable. >> they argued that to move it the weapons establishment would take longer. they said that they could move it in the timescale. timescale.sonable >> to stay longer? >> i think that scotland is a country of five point two 5 million people. it is ludicrous to suggest that we should harbor the largest concentration of weapons of mass destruction. [applause] equally ludicrous to argue harbor a weapons

system in the first place to generate more jobs than the new their jobs ever could. i can think of 100 things that wastedd do rather than on nuclear weapons. [applause] >> i understand, people believe we should have no part in nuclear weapons, but i can understand the part that says joined nato, a nuclear alliance. it does not make any sense. yes, the experts have said that it could take until 2008 to move it. earlier, thereng are 8000 jobs at stake here.

there are other submarines. and on top of that there is also the risk to the royal naval work on the client. i for 1 am not prepared to accept this. bolstering the rest of the united kingdom to unilaterally disarm itself. move they had to missiles, that is what would happen. the greater concern is the disruption that takes place and the uncertainty that takes place in the scottish defense force.

they are in fact turn -- in fact talking about spending that you have offered to spend 10 times over. you can't keep spending money that you haven't actually got. [applause] >> it is not at all like that. as the expenditure in scotland, to compare it to a major natural therece like oil and gas, were many points, alastair. [applause] can you say that 50% of your tax revenue is a bonus? >> i think the rest of us realize that what you are doing is you are trying to spend money

over and over again, but you can't do it. >> they said they are not regard. in that do you believe that? >> yes. it is to find out what the will of the scottish are. no if's or but's or going back. that is why the decision is so a revocable, made on the right asis. no folks, no fingers crossed. the reason they are not planning is that there is no mandate to do that in the association. in the u.k. cabinet yesterday they said that it was his graceful that they had not made any planning. the referendum we are having was

consented upon and agreed by for the scottish government. the sovereign will of the scottish people might be. [applause] >> this hate it will take until 2028, which is your policy, are you prepared to negotiate a shame mark >> i think that 5.5 years is a reasonable timescale to offer, as we have done in the white paper. our objective is to rid scotland of nuclear weapons. to be a member of nato and not the end of their country. the present secretary-general was the prime minister of denmark, a nonnuclear country. , 20next secretary-general

out of 28 countries. uswhy is their hypocrisy for but not in norway? >> we will move on to our final section about what happens after the referendum vote. the next question is submitted by e-mail. it crumbs from fred lister. it has been a divisive campaign for the population generally. he wants to know how they will work together after this vote and how no votes will react to each other. >> if someone had asked me six months ago if the campaign had been divisive, i would have said not at all. did over thehat he

last few weeks because both sides are passionate about what they believe in. both sides have to accept the result. do rejectt people independence and i hope that people will work together to build a better, stronger, fairer scotland. if i lose and he wins i have to accept that it is it, it is a revocable and we are not going back. all of us.is for after what has been the longest election campaign that i have ever experienced, we have to remember that in the next morning we have to get on with the problems we have in the of socialvice, issues justice, they all need attending to.

[applause] >> i agree with much of what alastair has just said there. people that this is been who have never thought about voting for political parties. hugely exciting time for scotland. the overall result is going to together andoming with 18 a yes vote involvingnegotiation the scottish national party. but all of the best parts of the challenge of scotland.

giving the best possible settlement for scotland. once the referendum is over, it is a matter of team scotland. that is what we need. [applause] >> i want to get some final thoughts from members of the audience about what happened after the vote. >> you mentioned that we would have a turnout of about eight percent in this referendum. how do we make sure that people stay as interested in politics regardless of the referendum? >> we will come back to that in a moment. >> can mr. darling tell us about the further powers he will be campaigning for an scotland? >> and the gentleman here?

>> i think that so far many of the points have been about the benefits of the union. there is no strong case being made for knowing case in the union. >> to stress that scotland should not lie on oil, yet your country,t put our scotland, into an illegal war for oil. men and women died there. >> with the glasses, yes. >> fundamentally this year is foughtmpaign has been passionately for scotland. >> alastair darling?

[applause] >> i think you are fairly committed on the other side, but this is not about me or him, but the children and generations on the other side, making sure they make the right decision on the 18th. i am passionate for being part of the united kingdom. >> i thought of some great questions there. if we could address the questions of how to sustain that engagement? the formation of a constitution for an independent scotland. >> we could move to our final section. shaving off a few seconds from those. it will be the end of this evening's debate.

time to hear from each speaker. alexander hammond, you are first. >> the decisions that we make dedicatingneration, this opportunity to devote themselves to independence in , it is an ox opportunity that may not come our way again. when we go into the polling station we will be taking the future of our country into our hands and the means of taking advantage of it. these challenges to solve them. in contrast, the north campaign has absolutely nothing positive to say about the future of this country.

in reality there is only one ,hing that they can guarantee at each and every election we will get the government that we vote for. the choices that the people in scotland make, it will be placed in the hands of the scottish. it is not me, alastair, or the newspapers or anything. this is about the future of scotland. it is about believing that we can govern ourselves that are that anyone else can. we don't need to rise and be a nation again. our time, our moment. let's seize it with both hands. [applause] >> alastair darling? unlike scotland,

none can compare. in the invention of medicine, scotland gave the world the age of and -- the age of them might meant. but i don't think we would be as successful as scotland would the as part of the united kingdom. i believe that we will do better and prosper together by building our strengths in scotland and being part of that larger united kingdom. 's starting point is currency, money. just as every household depends on monday, uncertainty around currency can ring a country to its needs. -- to its knees. when we can't control the currency, i don't think that that can be trusted. frankly, scare stories about the national health service i think are beneath contempt. we have had 3.5 hours of prime television time and i have not heard straight answers to a

simple question. they say that we don't need to know what plan b is. yes, we do. we do not need to divide these islands into separate states in order to assert our scottish identity. we can have more decisions taken here backed up on the strength and security provided by the united kingdom. have noat we all options other than to say politely, respectfully, and firmly no thanks to independence. [applause] >> that is at the end of our time. all that remains is for me to thank alastair darling and our audience here in glasgow and to thank you for being with us for this debate tonight. it continues across the bbc and on radio scotland. from all of us here, good night. [applause] [captioning performed by national captioning institute]

[captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] reminder, on september 18 scotland will vote on the independence referendum and whether to end their political union with england. if you missed any of the debate between the first minister of scotland and the former chancellor of the exchequer, we will be showing it again at 8 p.m. eastern here on c-span. all this month while congress is in recess we are showing book tv in prime time. tonight at 8 p.m. we have books on education issues. book tv, tonight at 8 p.m. eastern on c-span two.

on c-span three, american history tv. .