internet. not only how they use it but how they think about it and the access to it and that it be free and that it be open and that no >> monday night at 8:00 eastern on "the communicators." communicators" is next.

♪ on "q&a," we have , -- rickrk perlstein perlstein. , in your thirdin book, on that. 42 1976 -- 1962 to 197 6, you talk about being a dark time in our history. >> i am talking about global at the ebola

course, the middle east is blowing up again. in america, the crisis of inequality, we kind of have a new normal of which 7% or 8% of unemployed it is ok, the , thecketing of inequality bankers that seem to be able to get away with everything, but, the 1970's were really awful too. agoear you are, 13 years when you were talking on this program. i want to see if your beliefs are the same today. i am a european-style social democrat. identify with the left-wing to tuition -- tradition which has given

tax,ca progressive income education, some kind of old age insurance, and we have nothing to be ashamed of. backieve that we can take the standard of american politics from conservatives. i would not change a word. >> in this book, you write about a different era. bridge."isible covers from 1962 through 19 76. goldwaterrst book on went through what? 1959 through 1964.

--your second book "nixonland," goes through nixon's landside in 1972. what is a person with your personal views of politics doing spending time on conservatives in this country? >> that takes us back a ways. 1997,ted this project in and, i might have told you last time, let me know if i am repeating myself, i was fascinated with the 1960's when i was growing up. renaissancee " bookstore" in wisconsin. it was full of used books and use magazines. at was my playground.

-- that was my playground. i would pick up books about the black panthers, i would pick up books by the reverend john preacherfundamentalist who believe the beatles were evil. when i came to new york, i realized i wanted to become a journalist. i wanted to write a book. it was right around the time that newt gingrich's republican congress was taking the world by timothy mcveigh blew up the federal building in oklahoma city, and i had also been my fellow tribes of america -- "tribes of america" is a great book that

studied the right wing populist movements. i used to a kid, watch the fundamentalist preachers on sunday morning tv. when i was a young adult, i was into rush limbaugh. these interests all came together, a story that had not been told, a lifelong interest, and my course was set. >> when you started off with this book, you had something that people only dream about. you had the cover of the new york time's -- new york times book review. this time around, you got all positive reviews. you got a review from a man who is known as a conservative, max boot. booth.

this is his quote, "this is the nixon, herichard created the epa, he went to these and it covers areas. " conservatives should reconsider conservative presidents. a president who was voted as a -- president nixon was voted as bootservative, but max ford governing.

he was in the middle of negotiations with the soviet union. later, thatnto this what ronald reagan was able to exploit was the rhetoric of campaigning versus the rhetoric of governing. why the conservative movement did not buy what was -- what ford was up to is the real question. >> there are favorable reviews -- > >> you can tell me more favorable reviews. >> the washington post wrote upon which my work is all parasitic. " he does not claim any particular rug -- revelations.

i think that is unfair. i think a lot of people who are supportive of my work make that claim. in my first chapter i talk about the return of the p.o.w.'s, and is completely original. i watched every news report on the return of the p.o.w.'s. i crafted a chapter that took boswellhs, and it was well researched as any scholarly monograph. i listened to every ronald reagan radio broadcast from 1975. i did a time and of research at the national archives. i did a time of original research in the newspapers. i'm talking about a shaping -- shifting consciousness. the idea that i am recycling journalism of the time, i do not

think it really stands the test of scrutiny. but i should not be ungrateful for the review. >> part of me the red that's it thatat read that thinks from a lot of other people's writings, by the new york times and others, have even sued? -- have you been sued? have been threatened by a lawsuit by a fellow named greg shirley. he wants all of the copies of the books, i do not know where they are now, destroyed. did you know the times was going to do the story? letter from this

fellow's lawyer, may be before you -- maybe a week before my book came out. , becauseon was dismay this man is a pretty good historian. my original thought was once i get the book destroyed, i want his book read. it is a good book that relies on original interviews with lots of the participants, and all of the other historians -- historians are a pretty collegial bunch. what you work on a book and you come up with an argument or an with the 1976 did of the presidential campaign, universally, every other historian that i have come across is flattered. i cite him 125 times in the book. had thoughtthat he

that i had done wrong by him was sad. i did not mean to show disrespect. >> let me show this on the screen. this is from your source notes. on the are not only internet, but they are linkable. >> as you can see on the blue, you can hit -- click on the blue, it is a hyperlink. >> i try to make it as transparent as possible. >> so you go to rickperlstein.net. why did you do it this way instead of putting it in the book? the first two books, i was frustrated that people did not seem to read the notes. i thought we would have a lively exchange about the methods being used. i had complaints, people felt they were left out, but there was one exception, people were very fascinated that i had found

a journalistic reference in 86 in 9064 -- in 196 4 two barry goldwater that he should stand against the civil rights act. that is the only thing i heard. thought, what if i could make these notes so much more accessible, make my work accessible, and turn them in to a project where history teachers ,an show how historians work show people what the resources are available to them, on google newspapers, on google books, some of the most important memos are online. the university of santa barbara has put every single presidential speech online. youtube videos where you can watch ronald reagan give his speech to the 1976 convention.

videos of john dean testifying to the committee, what if i could do that and make it a very participatory process? show them the guts. i was incredibly exciting for me. -- that was incredibly exciting for me. long,e the book was so that meant that i could avoid that that weight of another 150 pages at the end of the book. everyone has a computer in their pocket these days. everyone has an iphone. most people. if you don't, you can always print out the notes. everyone has ipad. people do audio books now. have anyks you don't footnotes. but with this, you can kind of follow along. that's what notes are for. you explain where your work comes from, and you give the

reader a chance to verify your work. you get other scholars a chance to test your theories and build their own. proud of thedibly innovation, and we will see what people think. innovators take risk. -- i am willing to take the lumps. to 1976. the 1973 you talk about a speech. you are talking about ronald reagan's speech. was a video hookup by ronald reagan on behalf of barry goldwater's presidential campaign. >> how important was the speech? >> it was full of ironies. people do not think it would be effective, but also people

thought that barry goldwater was critical of social security. it went on, and it was a sensation. he raised so much money that the campaign had a surplus. he did not have enough both but they had enough money. man at the post, said it was the most effective political speech since william jennings bryant eva cross of gold speech. >> and this idea that the government has no other power is still the newest and most unique idea with all of man's ideas relations to man. whether we believe in our capacity to self-government or whether we believe in revolution, in a far distant capital -- and a far distant capital can plan our lives better than we can plan

ourselves, frequently you are told that you must choose between left or right, what there is only up or down -- but there is only up or down. the ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order. regardless of their sincerity, and their humanitarian motive, those who would trade our freedom for security have embarked on this downward force. that those who would trade our freedom for security, i thought of how many people are willing to trade freedom for security it comes to 9/11. i hear lots of ironies. , there is no left or right only up or down." but the dominant impression is

what and if active communicator he is. there is nothing original about the insight. >> one of our other clips, if we does show a teleprompter. and he was looking down on the page, and -- given that speech dozens, if not hundreds, of times before. reagan had a very up-and-down checkered career in the entertainment history. this was one of the down periods. prominent of the most television personalities in the country on tv every sunday night, and he lost his job for political reasons. he was aggressively attacking the kennedy administration at a time when general electric was facing off for price-fixing. he lost his job, and he got a much less distinguished job as a

host for a television show. when ronald reagan was down and out when they came to his entertainment for, he tended to reach for politics. that is when he became most active in politics. now he is concerned -- conservative, he used to be a liberal. he spent almost all of his time and 1964 about the evils of federal government control. he polished that speech to a high sheen. how much -- which chapter did you spend the most time on? >> definitely the first one. about the prisoners of war. of --ind of -- kind subsequent chapter takes less

time. it you are building a foundation. at first chapter is a foundation of the house. i had to struggle to express the foundational idea of the book, which was this kind of debate over the meaning of patriotism, over the right or wrong patriotism and the kind of patriotism that people began to develop after the vietnam war. a were saying a true patriot, is he or she one who criticizes their country at war? it took a good six months. "star."er 17 is called >> yes a very long chapter. >> how did you do it? >> a very important part of that chapter, well of course, there who haveof people written about reagan's hollywood career, there are also people

who have written about the hollywood star system and how it but i think the richest source wasn't archived at the university of california, los angeles, the papers of and edwards. she wrote a very fantastic book reagan."early she did a great civic act of leaving her papers at ucla. singleble to read every fan magazine article about reagan. i was able to read reviews of all of his movies. i was able to read a nancy questionnaire which she would answer questions about what she would do if she was not an actress, all kinds of amazing stuff. there was the copy of a hotel registry were? registry, where jack

.eagan had signed his name he was a very dashing figure in the world, even with his signature. finally watching things like ronald reagan movies. i saw dozens of bezos of general electric -- dozens of episodes theater."l electric of course, a lot of what you are writing about when you are writing about an actor is his performances. during very long chapter there is also his involvement with the studio strike of the 1940's. there was a long house hearing on that strike. all kinds of stuff. >> how much of a democrat was he then? >> dyed in the wool.

he was a hopeless liberal. you can go on youtube and watch an astonishing speech he gave on for theo in 1948 democratic ticket, specifically praising hubert humphrey, also , and what isan fascinating about that speech is that it is so recognizably ronald reagan. his ability to tell an exemplary story, in this case it is the story of a guy who had to go back to work because inflation was eating up all of his savings, and just like ronald reagan, he gives the perfect punchline -- the guy is 90 years old. the only difference is that the good guys and the bad guys are exactly reversed. he is not blaming the stuff on the government, but on big operations. >> we have outtakes, and we found this on youtube, it is from old movies.

and it is a ronald reagan you don't see very often. it is a minute or so. let's run this trade -- let's run this. all right, now, take a deep breath -- i will try not to hurt. the goddamned dress off. did you find out that you are free tonight? that is the wrong goddamned line, isn't it? it has been two years since i have been in new york. looking blooming. fine.i am have you been getting any lately? thosead another one of

goddamned fits. manust be difficult for a knowledge. mary! >> oh no. you turn right around and leave. >> oh, but mary. >> you get out and counted 20. damn. you know, that makes me think of the nixon tapes, and the scandal that came out. the president swore. the other thing is, it reminds me of a story that the late robert novak told in his memoirs where he realized in the summer of 1975 when reagan was running

for president, he took a long plane trip with them. flying, and he got over his fear of flying to -- said he wouldak tell all of these dialect stories. said that reagan told him that he had tried to bed every starlet in hollywood in between his marriages. it is humanizing. and -- >> what kind of an actor was he? how many of his movies did you watch? eight.be six or seven or they are hard to get a hold of.

their garbage. and he knew that. he would apologize for them. there were a couple of good ones, and he was beginning to build up steam as an actor. he came to hollywood in 1937, and he debuted with a bang. his first picture was "love is air," he played a radio broadcaster, and then he went downhill almost immediately. had a breakthrough rotney, allnut american," that is the one where he says "win one for the gipper." he had another one, but can't remember the name, and then his father pulled some strings to make sure that he stayed

stateside. he made some films at a place wacky,"tors called "fort but then the taste of actors change, there was a taste for van johnson, who was much more of a mid-century exit stencil is to wiry character -- ex essentialist who was a wiry character. is some video from one of those training film that he made, this is at the reagan library. all right, one at a time. danny is ok, he'll go over. stay steady.

>> that's my shot. ♪ >> hang tight. ♪ [bomb sound] >> yeah, he comes back, and his career is dead. he could not get the kind of jobs he wanted. he bagged jeff warner to put them in the western, and he and he waso it,

memorialized in a book about the 100 worst movies of all time, he starred alongside shirley temple in her first adult role. he had to kiss shirley temple, and they cut the kids because people booed during the screening. ed in his seat and walked out. when his career would go down, he would turn to politics. this is from your book on he is57, "the fact that a leader of all of these groups 'operationtor of terror,'explain why two fbi agents showed up to reagan's

doorstep one day." that 13listen to those, part series? >> i wonder if it is available. there is a wonderful book about -- by a former sever cisco newspaper writer called " about jve," and it is edgar hoover, ronald reagan, and the fbi files. so, in his book, i don't know how many pages, you probably remember how many pages, 800 pages, what were you trying to accomplish, and is there an next one?

>> the overarching story that has not been told, the big story, is the shift of american from 1973politics through 1976. that dark, dark, dark. that we were first talking abo t that we wered first talking about was when there was an energy shortage, that mademething people think about america and how we could solve big problems. how we could call our leaders to account. how we could create a foreign-policy that wasn't being

involved as foreign policeman, and there was a struggle at the life wheren american people did not want to do that hard, civic work of solving the problems are and ronald reagan rode on that wave, and began telling people that they did not need to worry about these problems, that watergate wasn't a problem, that the burglars were criminals, and that the ,nergy crisis was trumped up and that's by the time -- that by the time of the centennial -- bicentennial, there is a more grown-up version of patriotism. >> we are going to jump just so when ronald reagan ran in 1976. before that, here is something

you never see in this country, and that is a president testifying before congress, and this is gerald ford after the pardon in 1974. wonder if anybody had brought to your attention that the constitution specifically states that even though somebody is impeach, that person shall nonetheless be liable for punishment according to law. condescend of the fact that the president upon resignation was accountable for any credible -- criminal charges. but i would like to say that the noton i gave the pardon was as to mr. nixon himself, i repeat, and i repeat with emphasis, that the point of the pardon was to try and get the theed states, the congress,

president, and the american people focused on the serious problems that we have both at home and abroad. stuff. is riveting that is so symbolic of the. that i am writing about. of this poor guy, gerald ford, and he has terrible luck. on television by chevy chase as a continual bumbler because of a content -- a couple of trips that he did. accepts a subpoena to talk about the pardon. yet he looks so squarely come -- , and instead of being celebrated for his openness, nobody trusts him during the public has no faith in their institution -- trust him.

the public has no faith in their institution. said some strong things about gerald ford and there. what did you think of him? honorable he was an man doing the best he could in almost an impossible situation. he promised something that he could not deliver. end to promised was an division. when he gave that famous speech national our long nightmare was over, it was trumpeted by the pundits as almost utopian. watergate is over, we can turn a corner. but faced with the burdens of governance, he looked just as snakey as the last guy. in 1976, hetennial,

is ending his first term and entering the general election against jimmy carter, he wrote in his diary after this wonderful patriotic celebration about people being skeptical, and he says "well jerry, i think we have healed america." thought that you could just heal america. that promised that there is no red america and there is no blue america that barack obama made. it is a big theme in my book. 1974? old were you in >> i tell a joke in my book where i mention that something was debated in kindergarten classrooms all across the country and it was debunked after the nixon administration,

that i am not referring to the pardon, i am referring to people trying to jump over the snake true --nyon grade in canyon. in my class, we were debating whether evil knievel was a skunk who chickened out or whether he was a hero. 1970's debate. there are a lot of historians who are sitting where you are -- >> i don't think there a lot of guys writing about the revolution -- radio and television provided you with an opportunity. amazing such an opportunity as a historian. i went to the archives in

and it is such an amazing thing, and they basically have every network news broadcast of all three networks fully searchable am a and it is basically like youtube in heaven for historians. >> you went there for a week. hope to goext book i there for a month . . >> but you can't watch from your home. >> there are copyright domains. broadcastou watch tv from 1974, you are doing the same thing historically that people were doing in 1974. it allows you this unmediated access to the past that just does not come from reading an old newspaper or reading an old document. to try and translate that into into and historical

narrative is a great thing. this is how people experience a life in 1974. you can look at lots of documents and lots of papers from 1974, but you're not getting an idea of what life was like. when you send people to your website, you can see all of these things. you have to go to vanderbilt. >> yes. wherever i could, i would use youtube clips. >> where did you write this book? where do you live? >> cafés in chicago. people.o be around i have never worked in a newsroom, and i like that clutter and action -- >> did people know you are writing a book? >> yeah.

i wrote at café that where he became my office. i would just show up there every day. a communitydoing newsletter. another guy was doing journalism, another guy was computer programming. it was our own little office. >> where would you travel to? >> santa barbara, the ronald reagan ranch center, it holds letters between him and his fan i read theent, and papers is from reagan's campaign managers, and his radio broadcasts through and i went to the vanderbilt, ucla, but a lot of it, like i said, was online. on through rickperls

tein.net, and you can read through every newspaper as a kid. i am not sure of the link but you can find it there. but you can find anything. i have access to those libraries can look at i microfilm, and i consult books. all that sort of thing. >> when did you start the writing part of this? >> i got the contract for the book in october of 2008, maybe it was november, and i was doing two or three years of research before i started putting words on paper. end question2, the mark. what happens at the end? >> the new york times says that

reagan is too old to run for president. they imply that you will not have ronald reagan to kick around anymore. drew said the same thing. >> she pointed out to me quite that she actually said that a couple weeks before that speech, but then changed her mind. describe it, to but we are going to show several pieces of video here. the first one is when gerald ford is calling ronald reagan to the podium. in 1976.ansas city at this stage, what has happened? ronald reagan has made this underdog challenge to gerald ford. the outcome was not predetermined. no one knew who was going to win this convention.

it was quite possible the ronald reagan would have run away with an upset, and that he would have lost to jimmy carter and history would've turned out differently. basically he -- his people have done a good enough job they whense that certain concessions. they have a very conservative platform, bob dole is chosen as a running mate, and after gerald ford gives his acceptance speech, he beckons to the ronald reagan is up in the nosebleed seats, and the people who controlled the convention did not want him too close to the cameras, and he "why don't you come give a speech?" >> it wasn't accidental?

that'smyth says that this speech was completely spontaneous and that he did not want to give it. there was a wonderful book that told the behind the scene story campaign by a guy who is still active in washington, victor gold, a real character as i understand. >> he used to work for spiro agnew. >> he used to work first zero agnew and barry goldwater. spiro agnew and barry goldwater. he had detailed reporting's of all of the conversations that would make it look like ronald reagan would give a spontaneous speech, it was actually giving a speech that was choreographed idea thatand to the

he pretended that he did not want to give a speech. look at thee a first part where he calls them to the stage. he asked ronald reagan to come down and join him. he gestured to them. he waved sam. -- waved to him. he is shouting into the microphone. >> would you come down and bring nancy, he said. >> come on down. chancellor and david brickley, but what is going on right here? >> this is the part where ronald reagan seems reluctant. crowd'sinally wins the

accolades, and the crowd was so loud when he came up, and then he says ok i'm going to do it. supposedly he said to one of his aides, i don't even know what i'm going to say. and then he steps into the batter's box. and then he hits one of the great grand slams in american politics. dole had a terrible time during the convention because the two sides were so angry at each other, at one point, nelson rockefeller ripped one of the campaign signs at half, and then one of the campaign people ripped out a phone. it was unbelievably chaotic. up, will -- we will go to gerald ford introducing. and we will go to ronald reagan speaking at that convention.

we are all a part of this great republican family that will give the leadership to the american people to win on november 2. i would be honored on your behalf to ask my good friend, governor reagan, to say a few your -- words. [applause] >> he obviously did not have a teleprompter again. ronald reagan was an amazing speaker. he had an amazing gift. during the goldwater campaign, people were amazed that he could give a half-hour speech and stop with an internal clock inside his head. wouldld deliver what

deliver the most emotional energy. >> my distinguished guests here and you ladies and gentlemen. all of those millions of democrats and independents who i know are looking for a cause around which to rally and which i believe we can give them. [applause] in the face ofce a party that really seems on the time when 80% a of americans are identifying areselves as root -- 18% identifying as republicans. this, continue to watch basically the people in the adience look like they are at religious revival. people are crying, they are holding hands, their swaying, gerald ford gave a good sweet,

but ronald reagan gave a great speech. one of the people at my speaking agency said he read an account of the speech in my book, he said that he cried. reagan toty of ronald elicit emotion from people who do not see it coming is one of his most astonishing political guests. who say thatcynics is somethingorm that people don't bother to read and does not amount to much. but it is different this time than it has ever been before. i believe the republican party bold platform that is a platform with bold colors and no pastel shades. [applause]

we have just heard a call to arms based on a platform. to really be successful in communicating and revealed to the american people the difference between this platform and the platform of the opposing party which is nothing but a revamped and reissued at a running of a late-late show that we have been hearing from them for the last years. [applause] hearing?re you >> he is a clarion victory. when he talks about a platform -- he is declaring victory. when he talks about a platform, he talks about a platform that his people can control. and he said that this is a platform of no pale pastels, it is gendered language that would not be acceptable today, he's referring to a speech from 1975 conservative action conference

mentions striking colors. it is him saying to his supporters that you think ford one, but we have really won the future. we are going to win the war, even if ford has won the battle. the other thing here is him andhing out to democrats, we are familiar with the phrase reagan democrats, and the idea that the white working-class voters who were alienated by the civil rights movement and the feminist movement could be pulled into the republican tent was another one of his geniuses. seized thist he moment in which he could strike and new vision for the republican party of the future, really shows the american political movement becoming

ronald reagan. you ended that chapter, and i'm going to go back and read it again, -- >> not the elizabeth drew part -- >> you cut that out. before that speech, it was the end of his political career. at 65 years of age, the new york times noted that he was too old to consider seriously another run for president. >> i love getting up on those pundits further bad predictions. not like thell pundits further bad predictions that they make? >> this was when the pundits at the tea party was dead right before eric cantor won his seat during -- lost his seat.

conservative thinking and conservative ideas are deeply rooted. the 1860's war in over this. americans were slaughtering each other. we always want to believe in this consensus in america, the downthat the lion can lay with the lamb, and that we can get together and make policy acceptr, but we have to that within the bounds of peopley, and feet -- following the rules of political debate and political engagement, that we should be perfectly comfortable with the conflicts that underlie our political culture. >> what years are you going to write about in the next volume? from 1977oing to go through inauguration. the drama that went on through

the operation with the various can -- through the inauguration with the various conservative factions was fascinating. >> why is this going to be your last file you? -- last volume? >> that is what i intended. i want to look on to other event -- other adventures. you got a stop somewhere. i research these two volumes and i have been reading a lot of wonderful books from a number of historians. about the carteret ministration and jimmy carter's

diaries, -- the carter administration and jimmy carter's diaries. and i am planning my trip back to vanderbilt to listen to more of those recordings. >> in your preface, you devote to a subject that we have talked about often here on this network, and is -- and that is, is this the greatest country in the world? yeah.ha, yeah cheney, how he mentioned that. you go on with this. >> what is more interesting is that the democrats say it to. samantha power, she is obama's u.s. ambassador, she had to tell

marco rubio that we are the greatest country in the world and that we have nothing to apologize for. >> so is it? >> i willing to say that we are the greatest country in the world. but we could do better. we do not have the lowest in for mortality in the world. we have enormous inequality. our hubris gets into trouble again and again and again. i am more interested in not the question of whether we are the greatest country in the world, to if we are adult enough not have to say are we the greatest country in the world? >> why does everybody in politics say it all the time? >> because of ronald reagan. he was so successful in ruling out any critical examination about the american prospect.

, after winningma his election, said, whether he was going to call the bush administration into account for what was probably criminal, he said we do not look back in america, we look forward. i think that is a real danger to our civic life. >> you talk about whether ronald reagan was the real deal or whether he was a phony. >> even as early as his high careers, itollege was equally divided between people who believed he was a hero and people who believed he was a phony. >> what you think? >> it is an interesting question. you get a give credit to the guy that was the first to eliminate an entire class of nuclear weapons. a guy who was completely able to innsform a political culture

two ways i just described. are theinating things conservative things that he did, like supply-side economics, admiring us in a terrible recession, were his most conservative views. so we could really re-examine the liberal -- the reagan administration with a fresh idea. >> again, this book is called the "invisible bridge." where did you get the picture? was it your idea? fortunate to get this picture. i found this picture in a life magazine -- time magazine -- life magazine, i think, with the

100th anniversary of reagan's birth. we knew compare that to gerald ford, was always supposedly been into things and falling down stairs, you can see why we are speaking about the age of reagan is dead at the age of ford. , with hisrlstein "the invisible bridge." >> [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] for free transcripts or to give us your comments about this program, visit us at q-and- a.org. "q&a" programs are also available as c-span podcasts.