spanish language viewers. speaking in spanish] >> we also want to thank doctors hospital renaissance for this beautiful venue tonight. the crew that worked on the set designs, thank you so much for helping out with that. we do appreciate it. once again senator wendy davis, general greg abbott. thank you to both of you this has been an historic evening. for everybody watching at home, have a great night. >> in arkansas, the race for governor is an open seat because here's a look at the wo candidates.

>> the democrat gazette said the attacks on mike ross are not true and a smear on his family business. there was never a justice department investigation and the house ethics committee approved the sale, so why is hutchinson attacking ross's family for building a small town business into a success? to cover up the fact that he got caught cheating on his taxes an the fact hutchinson is a d.c. lobbyist who has a record of putting arkansas's millionaires before the middle class. >> for our schools the choice for governor, there's asa hutchinson. he opposed mike ross's plan to expand pre-k. >> i think it's the wrong direction. >> but mike ross says education must be a priority. a focus on career tech training and college opportunities. >> under mike's plan, i know my kids would have what it takes to

get ahead. >> mike ross has a reputation i can trust. asa e you seen this -- hutchinson reported a mistake himself on his taxes. e paid his bill. indiscernible] fortunately arkansas knows better. >> it's a $16 billion industry and arkansas's largest, and with 97% of our farms family owned, our next governor must fight on their side. so when some criticize free trade, it only hurts our farmers, whether it's rice, wheat or poultry, i want to keep arkansas business open to the world. it's the best way to grow our economy and create jobs. i'm asa hutchinson. as governor, we'll hit the

ground running and never look back. >> now, the first debate between democrat mike ross and republican asa hutchinson. topics include jobs, taxes and education. from little rock, arkansas, this is an hour. the candidates square off. two candidates with expensive political history. the attorney turned lawmaker, e small businessman turned politician. there are big differences between congressman hutchinson and myself. >> republican asa huff son. >> obviously we want to expand opportunity. i want it to reflect our values. >> the debate begins now. from your local election

headquarters. the arkansas governor's debate. >> good evening and thanks for joining us tonight. we are coming to you live on television and online tonight and what happens here in the next 60 minutes could decide who represents you. that's as the next governor of arkansas. will the democrats stay in the governor's mansion with mike ross or will it be a republican transition with asa hutchinson? mark it on your calendar, election day is november 4. tonight's debate will -- the time limits will be flexible. the goal tonight is to get to the heart of the issue sozz you can make your decision. we want you to join us on twitter. let us know who is making an impression with you or who isn't. you can tweet us using the ashtag ar governor dr gov.

let's take you down to our moderators, -- >> we are certainly joined by your candidates for governor mike ross and asa hutchinson. gentlemen, thank you very much. we are joined by david gowins as well. we are going to have a lot of fun this evening. our goal is to cut through the clutter, get to the issues that matter most for arkansas and for the next governor of the state of arkansas. >> mr. ross won the coin toss a few minutes ago. he will begin with his opening remarks. he is the democrat in this race. he's also a native of arkansas and spent 12 years in the u.s. congress at a time when voters seemed fed up with washington politics. many ross, your two-minute opening, what makes you

different? >> david, bob, thank you very much. this is the first time i've ever run for statewide office so i'd like to begin tonight by sharing with you a little bit about who i am and why i want to lead this state. i think family is very important. on my mama's side my grandpa had a third grade education. he raised five children on 100 acres of land. he raised them off the land. some of you know what i'm talking about. they didn't have a lot financially. they had made sure they were in church every sunday with their sunday best on and he made sure they received the kind of educational opportunities he never had. my grandpa passed when i was about a year old and granda learned how to drive a car and she got her g.e.d. and moved to little rock and became a nurse. my parents were school teachers. and after a lifetime of teach and being a principal and a

school superintendent my dad became a united methodist minister. my family, my family collectively taught me the values of faith, family, hard work, personal responsibility. and i think those values have served me well for the last 53 years and i want you to know those same values will serve as my moral compass as i do my best to hopefully lead this state. my parents were school teachers. they taught they the importance of education. i said i want to be the education governor because that's how we create more and better paying jobs. if you think about it, if you want to talk about employment, opportunities, you want to talk about good jobs, hunger, homelessness, poverty, crime, it really all starts with education. we've got to start sooner and finish stronger. we need more career tech opportunities for those who do not choose college or for those who wake up one day and find a pink slip.

we want to make college within reach for more young people. i want to be the biggest economic ambassador this state has ever had. i will work with democrats and republicans to get the job done. >> let's introduce the other candidate. mr. asa utch son. he say arkansas native, serving as a federal prosecutor and serving congressman, serving in the d.e.a. and the department of homeland security. we were here last time you ran. what's different this time? >> i'd like to say those are good memories but this is a new day in arkansas politics and i'm glad to join you tonight and thank everyone who has joined us for this debate. it's important for the future of arkansas. and like mike ross, i am very proud of my history in arkansas and my parents as well. my parents -- we grew up on a farm -- near a creek. my parents were not rich.

they were not poor. they were truly middle class and what defined our family was hard work, understood hard work. it was community. it was faith. it was church. that's what bound us together. whenever you look at the work we did, i started my first job as -- in shoeshining in johnny's bash ber shop. i sacked groceries. i worked at a factory when when i was in in high school. i hauled hay. going to college , i actually cleaned up the gymnasium. i was a janitor helping to put my way through college. in law school i was dating my sweetheart in memphis and i couldn't buy textbooks and put gas in the cars. i hitchhiked over to see her. our marriage has lasted over 41 years. i think about my parents who are

truly middle class. that brings me to today's debate. the final issue is who can best support and change the struggling middle class and give them more opportunity and more spending money. i want to be the jobs governor because i believe everything hinges on a growing economy and better paying jobs. today you see a middle class squeeze because the governor takes more and spends unwisely. my plan for computer science in every high school, career education which is so important, lowering the tax rate in arkansas and we're refining education. >> we've got a lot to get to tonight. >> let's get it started. we've seen arkansas's unemployment rate peak out at just over 8% about this time three years ago. currently sits at 6.23%.

the bureau of labor static -- statistics shows working arkansasians. what can you do from the governor's office to make that happen? >> a lot. obviously to grow our economy in arkansas, it's about the private sector and individuals taking risk. i have a very specific plan that will produce jobs for our residents that are better paying. one of the statistics today is that we were declining in arkansas in technology jobs. that is really insufficient, particularly when we see a company that just moved to austin, texas because of the tool ent pool there. that's why my plan for a agreing economy in arkansas is right on target. we have to have a competitive tax rate in arkansas. my plan is to lower it starting with the middle income. secondly, i want to have computer science in every high

school. that is technology education that will give our young people better paying jobs, opportunities and will help our growing industry that need that talent. there's unfilled jobs in the future in that field. we also need to talk about career education, job skills that will help us bring industry hand recruit the right ones to arkansas. this is an economic growth plan. and finally, let's reduce the power of regulations on our business and let's make sure we partner with them instead of trying to punish them. >> ok. mr. ross, your thoughts on this job fronts here. >> i've been involved in economic development all my life. i can tell you you can have the best infrastructure, at the end of the day before an industry locates in your town, they're going to do a job market or labor survey. too many times in towns large d small all across the state simply not an available educated and skilled workforce.

when i say i want to be the education governor, that's how we create more and better paying jobs for working class families and middle class families across the state. that's why i feel strongly about my pre-k plan. there should be a desk for your child regardless of your income and regardless of your zip code. you look at 100 ninth graders, 20 of them do not go to high school. only 40 of them is graduated college. we need a renewed education on science and technology. we need a renewed focus on career tech. we need greater partnerships between our high schools, community colleges, technical schools and existing industry so young people who do not choose college can learn a trade and get a good paying job. and in doing so, it helps provide our state with the

educated and skilled workforce we need. that coupled with my plan for lower and fair taxes, look, as governor i'm going to send a message loud and clear to america and the world that arkansas is open for business. >> real quick on that and i'll ask you to respond to this too. but what about retaining the folks who graduated from college in the state and keeping them from moving out to larger students where they're going to make more money? >> absolutely that is one of the challenges. historically we are keeping more of how talent here in arkansas. we are having other students from other states come here and finding their future here. it really troubles me when whenever we are losing some of our best talent here. we've got to talk contrait on the stem education, the engineer field. there will be one million unfilled jobs in the next 10 years, great opportunity. it's a combination of things. we have to make sure the

industry is here to use the students we graduate but it also starts with those students and the talent pool that we have. let's start with the talent pool and the industry will come. >> real quick. >> part of my job's first plan and you can read the entire plan -- .come. s dalm i'm from a small town and more times than not when someone goes off to college, they never come back and that's pretty much what we see in rural towns all across arkansas and all across america. we need to create more and better paying jobs so these young people that go off to college will have a job to come back to. >> obviously we've talked about education, jobs. one thing i did want to touch on real quickly. it's money at the end of the line once a business says they're ready to come to

arkansas. mr. hutchinson, not as clear call, calling it a slush fund. your thoughts of the continuation of that money, is that smn a governor needs to bring business to arkansas? >> sure, a governor needs to have an ability to recruit industry, to use some incentives to get them here. that's very important for our state. what i said about the quick action closing fund is it's an important tool but we do need to have more transparency so we know how that is used and in hindsight we can use it better. we need to have better call back provisions. they've not been able to fulfill the jobs. this is taxpayer money we need to be able to recover that. there needs to be some adjustments. in terms of the amount of it, i don't think we should be locked in whether it's 50 million or 3545 or 55, let's balance it with the needs of the state. we need to have it adequately funded. as to the exact amount, i think

we need to look at what's going to be the needs for next year and balance it with the other needs for the state. >> i support the governor's quick action closing fund. i support the state chamber of commerce position it should be fully funded every two years at $50 million. last decade it was against governor bb. when the governor proposed the idea of being able to compete to get good jobs here, congressman hutchinson said it wouldn't be more than governor bebe slush fund. it has put more than 30,000 people to work in arkansas. if we want to be competitive we've got to provide the incentives other states are providing. the state is successfully clawed back on companies and done

another. a agree totally with governor mike bebe, i support the governor's quick action closing fund. >> do either one of you have a list of corporations that you would contact day one when you're in office? >> yes. i've already contacted a couple of them. >> and they are? >> i'll tell you this. i was at the n.r.a. convention and i was visiting with some gun manufacturers and they're leaving some northeastern states because their product is illegal under the new gun laws. i said make me hay promise that when you leave you'll consider arkansas before you make a decision. i've already passed that on but i will follow up personally with them and a few others that we've talked to. >> what i'm going to tell you do as governor. we're not going to wait for industry to contact us. we are going to do due diligence and reach out. we are going to identify

companies and businesses in america and in the world that we believe are looking to expand and relocate. i'm going to spend time on the phone reaching out to these businesses telling them why they should do business in arkansas. if i need get on the next commercial flight and fly to their town and make a pitch, i will. we've got a lot of success stories in arkansas. people who have done well here. i'm going to ask those who have been successful in arkansas to give back and to become economic ambassadors for arkansas and ask them to reach out to these folks and let them know why they do business here in arkansas. >> we talked about jobs, education. it all kinds of blends into taxes. each of you have proposed tax cuts. here's a graphic that highlights each of your plan. some similarities for those aking less than $75,000. from hutchinson, at least in your plan the bottom 41% of

earners do not see any reduction in income tax. how do you characterize that as middle class relief? >> because the tax relief is very targeted between those that make between 20 thousand and $75,000 a year. that is the heart and soul of arkansas. that is the middle class. i think the defining question in this race is who can do best to really help the middle class and this is a way to do it. >> so the middle class isn't a majority of our -- >> yes, it is. >> your tax plan is 45% of tax players? >> the tax plan is for those making between $25,000 and $75,000 a year, it's targeted to them. i wanted to make it something that was doable and that is $100 million. when you do $100 million you've got it targeted. it's toward the middle class. there's been the lower income are already in a lower tax

bracket. the high income can wait until later. let's get it to the middle class first and there is a huge difference between my plan and mr. ross's because it is a competitive issue with our surrounding states. we have a 7% tax rate in arkansas, the highest in the region. mine will reduce that from 7% to 6% and 6% to 5%. that makes us more competitive. mr. ross's plan does not do that. when i came out with my plan, from the very beginning mr. ross said i'm going to be letting rapist out of prison and we are going to end education in arkansas. all the fear because i wanted to do a tax plan because i knew it was needed. now he proposes something even larger than what i suppose -- proposed. >> mr. ross -- >> taxes are too high for the families in arkansas. i'm going to fix it. i never thought i'd see the day

that a republican candidate in congressman hutchinson would want to criticize me for wanting to cut people's taxes so much. this is a similar debate that governor it bebe and congressman hutchinson had several years ago. congress hutchinson said that's an empty promise. fast-forward seven and a half -- i sub vibe he to the same model. my tax cut plan is this, we are going to balance the budget first, fund education, medicaid, public safety and then we are going to implement my plan for lower and fairer taxes. >> which one first, manufacturers, you've got pre-k and then there's a third one that escapes me but you have a three prong approach here, which one takes precedent? >> here's what i think is

important, what i've done in this campaign for governor is i've said here are my priorities. here's my vision for a petter arkansas. here are the things i hope to accomplish in the next few years. we are going to balance the budget first and as we have revenue growth we are going to provide tax relief for working families: mr. hutchinson has promised every voters in the state he will cut taxes $100 million in his first in office. the department will tell you that at best we are going to have a $50 million revenue growth, that leaves a $50 million deficit. credit rating downgraded. >> we have a short amount of time. veterans income is the third one. one of those i would think has to be your tax cut. if revenues are there, which ones are the most important? do you start your pre-k plan or

o you go for veterans or manufacturers? i have laid it out on my website. i hope people will take a look at it. those are my priorities as we have revenue growth. i'm not going to promise $100 million in year one. >> is a very important point right here. first of all, my plan of $100 million targeted the middle income is something that could be absurd in our recurring revenue in the state. he $100 million if you look at our budgeting -- it's very manageable. but what's important is that if you see mr. ross has promised something to everyone but then he will not be definitive as to what he wants to do next year. eye been clear. i've said $100 million in tax cuts and this is where we're

going to start. i want to ask mr. ross what are you going to do next year? are you saying there's not going to be any income tax cuts that you're going to present to the legislature next year? i've been very specific and i think we jo it to the voters of rkansas to be -- owe it to the voters of arkansas to be specific. >> mr. hutchinson, your plan very heavily on computer science. mr. ross, your pre-k plan for 4-year-olds. some parents have expressed concern over what's called the common core. or the most part folks think it's great and it works. mr. hutchinson, do you support common core in its full implementation? >> i support a review of common core. it's very important that we have

high standards in education in arkansas, and i want to make sure we have the highest expectations for our students. secondly, i want arkansas to dictate its own educational policy and not coming from washington, d.c.? >> look at oklahoma who rejected common core and they're just not withdrawing the waivers that they had for no child left behind. there's a consequence. there's a lot of washington pressure on this. i want to make sure we determine high standards for arkansas based upon our values. i was at conway high school. the students asked they about common core. i asked them do you want the next governor to modify common core or keep it as it is? 95% raised their hand and said it needs to be modified. i'll have my commissioner of education review where we are, let's have high standards. i want to get parents and teachers together to see we can

make sure be maintain high standards and control it from arkansas. >> your thoughts on it implementation. >> i support the concept of common core. the con september is we want to teach young people how to think for themselves. here's what common core is not. there's a lot of misinformation on the internet. it's not a curriculum, it's a standard. this business tv outlawing cursive wrate writing, multiple cation tables -- mull tip cation -- it was written by people like governor huckabee and governor jeb bush and endorsed by the national governors association in coordination with a lot of people that has been successful in the business world. they need to be -- it needs to be tweaked. i think the concept is good. >> gentlemen, sticking with

education, let's move to pre-k which is snag is very big on mr. ross's campaign. access to pre-k every 4-year-old by 2025. they're basically running out of money looking for what they can. how would you pay for something like that? >> it's a good question, bob. i hope we can do it sooner than that. the first thing i want to do is fully fund the program. this is the abc program and the quality is outstanding. we're ranked 11th in the nation. oklahoma has figured this out. i think it's the right thing to do. here's how i would pay for it. number one, we would increase from 200 to 300% of poverty those who are eligible as far fast as we can. there will be net revenue growth and congressman hutchinson wants to spend more and put us on the

path of fiscal irresponsibility, record deficits, have our credit rating lowered, just as they've seen in kansas as well as huge cuts in public education in kansas. we are going to do this and afford it as we have revenue for those between 300 and four and percent of poverty, they would pay half the cost, which is less than daycare today. those over 40% of poverty, $48,000 a year, they would pay the full price, which would be comparable to what they are paying for daycare now. the full price, which would be comparable to what they are paying for daycare now. we will implement it as we can afford it. >> mr. hutchinson, you called the plan a fiscally responsible, but you support the plan that exists. >> there is a distinction. we have an existing program that funds pre-k up to 200% of poverty, it means we are targeting towards those who need it the most.

mr. ross wants to expand that to up to 300% of poverty and even up to 400% of poverty with taxpayer money. and so, whether they can afford it or not, you will get taxpayers to pay for it, and we have to prioritize. the governor was not able to find the money to fund the existing program. i want to fund the existing abc program, not expanded, -- expand it, and target the money were beneath it the most. we have a revenue stabilization act. obviously we are going to fund education and balance the budget. we will fulfill our commitment to services. but with the revenue growth we have had historically, we will be able to pad that with tax

cuts. the biggest difference we can make for the middle income is to raise our income here and the best way to do that is technology education combined with career education that teaches these skills for a workplace. >> cumbersome hutchinson, he says one thing in arkansas and does something else in washington. he voted against free gay programs. he says that -- pre-k programs. he says that my program is the wrong direction. and now he is for increasing access to pre-k. is this the washington asa or the arkansas asa. i wish the real asa would stand up. >> i'm not sure that a negative attack along those lines -- mr. ross spent 12 years in washington. he voted for nancy pelosi for speaker four times and voted against or twice. -- her twice. >> the only time she had an opponent, i gave the nominating

speech for her opponent while she was in the front row. >> i said you voted for her four times, i did not say anything else. do not get so defensive about your flip-flopping. those are just the facts. we both have a record in washington. i have had a record of balancing the budget, for example. when i left congress, are washing -- our nation had a balanced budget. when mr. ross left, we had a deficit. >> we are just getting started tonight, the congressman -- candidates getting comfortable. coming up next, something we will see a lot of other. and some of the other issues the candidates will face. >> the debate between the candidates will continue in a moment. while we wait, here are a look at the campaign as being aired in arkansas.

>> the democrat gazette said that the attacks on mike ross are not true, and a sneer on his family business. so why is hutchinson attacking ross' family for building their small-town business for success? right?

ross.t mike fifth-generation arkansan. >> arkansas's next governor will have to stand up to washington liberals. can need a leader they depend on. only king in politics but that is monster branded as being fed very well. your take on the ads? too much? a lot of the ads do work, naturally. >> the negative ads are what's the problem. me allpeople me telling the time, just tell me what you want to do as governor. proud of my--

granddaughter talking about computer science. that businessbout in arkansas, number one industry. we were talking about agriculture and arkansas. i talked about my truck and my wife. my wife has been on television to talk about my marriage. positive messages are what i believe were cap there. i am very disappointed whenever the negative ads turn the fans -- motors off. >> are you worried about the onslaught of negative ads? a majority of them -- i look at all of them -- have been positive. are you worried about everything else overshadowing it?

>> kirsten hutchison and his wealthy out-of-state friends has spent millions trying to convince you i am something that i am not. lying about me and my record, i have been disappointed in that. i want to talk about my positive vision for the future of the state. improving education and creating more and better paying jobs for middle-class families. ringing jobs back to rural arkansas. lower and fairer taxes. my senior citizen bill of rights, my veterans matter plan. all those plans are based on life experiences that i had growing up in southwest arkansas in places like prescott and emmett and hope. i love this state and i know we can do better. >> we went from talking about the state stupor -- talking about the ads and producing a couple. >> than me just come back to what mr. ross's speaking of. i have been positive, and he is talking about an ad from an out-of-state group we do not have control over. but you played an ad in which

mr. ross attacked my character. that is what -- never advocate that happening, i think it is encouraging an 18-year-old to vote. does it encourage people to participate in the political process? that is the test for us. we have an obligation for candidates to make sure that we are encouraging people to say that public service is good. i think negative advertising does not work that way. i can control the senate race, i cannot control out-of-state groups, i can control my own message, and that is what i want to do. mike is right, it is about our vision for what we will do for the middle class, are tax cuts, our veterans. >> now wait a minute. asa wants to say poor me. he says he cannot control ads that are being run by the republican governors association? when he came out with this ad, my wife is a pharmacist. she spent 14 years every day going to build a business. it is america, she sold her business for a profit in america, imagine that. he attacked her for that. for him to say, that is not me, that is the governor's association, do you know when that had began airing?

when the chairman of the governor's association was in arkansas raising money for cumbersome hutchinson's campaign. he could have said that that is not fair. the house ethics committee and said there is no truth to this. but he did not, he kind of wink and let it continue to go and go after my wife. i think he owes my wife an apology, right here and right now. >> well, mr. ross, do you control the democratic governors association, the ads they run attacking me? you know better than that. i have no control over my ads it is illegal to coordinate those. i will let you answer the questions. i have never, never attack you on the issue. if you remember me attacking, tommy right now. -- tell me right now. >> we will look forward to more positive as in the future. onto health care. the affordable health care act passed years ago, we use federal

tax dollars. we now have 200,000 arkansans receiving coverage. a small portion are going the medicaid route. mr. hutchinson, we will start with you. what happens if you are in the governor's office? >> i'm in the best position to negotiate with the legislature and to stand up to president obama's administration as to what we need to do in the future. i positioned myself to make sure that we can measure the costs clearly, without any question. the private option has helped our hospitals and expanded health care in arkansas. but any governor has to look at the cost for the future, down the road.

when i'm governor, we will have taken up 10% of that. i think the costs are unpredictable. a report came out that the private option might cost more than the pure medicaid expansion. we are also still getting in numbers as to what the insurance rates are going to be. and so we are still measuring it. i think the governor has to be careful. let's wait till next year. >> but the legislature lead the way? -- let the legislature lead the way? >> i expect to lead the way with the legislature. the republicans help to create the private option. i think i can bring together as well as the democrats and say, let's figure out the right way for the future. we also have the question of waivers, which is not just excepting the status quo but doing better. we may have to ask for more waivers from washington. >> i wholeheartedly support the medicaid expansion and the

private option. regardless of how you feel about the aca, the only part we have a say over is the medicaid expansion. the governor worked to create an innovative, market-based, bipartisan solution known as the private option. fast forward one year, we are ranked number one in america. we reduced the uninsured rate in arkansas by half in just one year. nearly 200,000 people. am i point out that these are working arkansans. people who do not work, they get medicaid. they are trying to do the right thing and get off welfare but are working jobs with no benefits. i will fight to protect it. congressman hutchinson here, he spent a year saying he had not read it, and then he went on npr to say that the only getting about the private option is that you put these folks -- as he

called them, that it would be a simpler process to take them off of private insurance and medicaid. this is a lifeline to our world hospitals, that is why every hospital supports it. 200,000 arkansans will be healthier now, which will help us create a more educated and skilled workforce to bring more and better paying jobs to arkansas. as governor, i will be a leader. i will tell you clearly where i stand on the issue, he continues to dodge it. yes i know, do you support the private option? i do. >> in that diatribe that we just heard, you will notice that there was never one mention of what it cost. and i think that any governor has to be responsible to look at the cost to the taxpayers when we do the things. and clearly the private option is doing good things out there for our world hospitals. but -- rural hospitals. but i would be responsible to talk and pledged 100% support without modification, without

looking at it closely and when it costs down the road. so my pledge to the voters is that i will work with the legislator to get the right solution and get a solution that we can afford. and also to push back to see how we can improve it. it is not about the status quo, it is not about accepting what we have been doing. mr. ross would've accepted the medicaid expansion surely as it was. under his leadership, we would never have had a private option, because he would've supported the expansion. it was the republican leadership that came in to look at in an innovative fashion. >> we talk about these issues and successes of past governors. your predecessors, all the way back to clinton, have come into the governor's office through state government. one of these have been involved but are removed.

>> i spent 10 years balancing the state budget. >> tummy, from your point of view, how do both of you forge those relationships and work on something as important on the private option? >> first of all, if i can respond, i have mentioned numerous times that we will balance the budget first. the most the state ever pays a 10%. we will be able to afford that because of the growth that will occur because of the jobs it creates. 20,000 people having health care creates more jobs in the health care sector. any economist will value it will more than pay for itself. i am committed to protecting it and still, right here tonight, he will not give us a straight yes or no whether or not he supports these 200,000 working arkansans keeping their health insurance. look, i have a history of being bipartisan, and congress and hutchinson has a history of

being partisan. "the national journal" consistently listed me as one of the most independent members of congress. i earned an a plus rating from the national rifle association. at a history of working with democrats and republicans to get the job done, and that is what i will do as governor. >> sit tight. >> you have another question? because he just unloads a barrage here. >> i will try and slow down a little, i apologize. >> you're going a little bit long. one, when you talk about bipartisanship, i have been in state government and have worked across the aisle, and i have the opportunity -- ability to do that. >> we will be back after a short break, we will tackle the twitter reaction. here's a live look at another watch party for asa hutchinson. there are his supporters cheering their candidate on. you're watching the broadcast of the statewide governor debate.

0 welcome back to the governor's did they area and we've been asking you to share your thoughts with us using #argov. is making ante impact with you and why? here's is some of what we're hearing from you tonight. what is hutchison's plan for the delta since he wants to govern the entire state? saying his tax plan is immediate, not the down the road land like mike's. the grocery tax never completely gone. guess mike ross

cannot name any businesses that he would contact or have contacted to move to arkansas if elect did governor. he will turn arkansas into kansas with his unrealistic tax plan. we cannot afford that. just look at them today. that's a snapshot and another comment we went to care with you tonight. family anda larger tax cuts for middle classes, 100 25,000-class dollars is still middle-class. that's a snapshot of what we're seeing tonight in the conversation on social media. break, i talked about legislature in getting back to state government. we want to give you plenty of time to address it. >> my experience does lend to work well with the legislature. i not only have legislative

experience but president bush .ppointed me to head up the epa i helped set up the department of homeland security. i had to lead 110,000 employees. i also worked with the legislative branch. agencies, i leading think it helps move the state legislature, but i've already talked to them. when you work in a bipartisan way, it is not supposed to bring fear to the opposing party. you need to bring them in early in the process. that's what i would want to do whether it is computer coding or a whole host of things. we need to address a number of things. >> here's a quick series of issues, looking for concise responses. minimum wage. it is on the november 4 ballot. mr. ross, how important is it for folks to support this

measure. >> working folks deserve a raise. i support increasing the state minimum wage. congressman hutchinson opposes raising the minimum wage, and he says he was against it in this campaign until a few weeks ago. then he says he is for it. i was derailed congressman hutchinson would stand up. working-class families deserve a pay raise, and i will work hard to make sure that we increase the minimum wage. some of them are working and earning 13,000 a year. >> can i stop you right there? in 30 seconds. >> i support the minimum wage and will vote for the ballot initiative. i said we needed to raise the minimum wage from day one when he was undecided. we have had a debate about process.

are we supporting a minimum wage increase -- we have done a historically, but we have to talk about more than minimum wage. we have got to be able to have a stronger wage rate in arkansas, and my technology initiative will help to do that. >> an issue that came up this week, we have seen advocates for the disabled protest across little rock. do you support this? >> i support those with disabilities having more options, including the option to live at home and independently. my mom had polio when she was a year old. she spent more time growing up in children's hospitals than she did at home. i understand the challenges that those who face disabilities have, and i believe they need more choices, not less. if they choose to live and evidently, they should be allowed to do so. >> and i agree that choices are important.

the cfco is one part of obamacare that states have an option in. not many states have excepted the option. cost is an issue in this. but it is something you need to look at. i support more options for those that qualify for them. >> let me switch row quick, we would be remiss if we did not touch on prisons and crime. we will start with mr. hutchinson. is a new prison inevitable, and how does that play into what the state needs to do? >> this is where i want to use my experience. probably no one has been governor of arkansas with the kind of law-enforcement experience i have had. from being a prosecutor to leading law enforcement agencies. we have a drug problem and a crime problem. we need to change behavior, lockup violence, and look at alternatives for those who might fit into the rehabilitative programs with accountability. we need to reform our parole

system. the question is, is a $100 billion prison inevitable? not under my watch. i know that as a recommendation that is being studied, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. we need to look at every creative alternative an option before we do that. >> mr. ross, we have talked about prisons. kind of the same question, is it an inevitable path? >> we have a lot of pressure put on our county jails, nearly two dozen inmates backed up in county jails. some say it -- 2000 inmates act up in county jails. it will be taking million dollars a year to operate it. -- $50 million a year to operate it. the jury is still out on it. whether we build a prison or not, i want to see meaningful reforms were criminal justice system. we need smarter sentencing, alternative sentencing for nonviolent and first-time

offenders. we need more drug treatment courts and the veteran treatment courts. that will come at a fraction of the cost of a new prison. >> will move on right now. we appreciate the dialogue. thank you for coming in and discussing things with us. hopefully it helps the and decided voters take a stand. as the end of the broadcast, we want to give each of you a chance to directly appeal -- look directly into the camera. mr. hutchinson? >> thank you, and i appreciate all arkansans who have taken time to listen to this debate tonight. it has been heated from time to time, because it is so important what we are trying to accomplish. the test is, what can we do most to help and grow the middle class and their income level in arkansas? that is my passion, economic growth and job creation. i have a specific plan that will work for arkansas. it is asaplan.com.

it includes lowering tax rates, career education classes tied to a job. we need to make sure that we offer stem education including computer science. if only 20% of our students to computer science, computer coding, that would be 6000 graduates a year that would move into our economy. that could dynamically change the economy of arkansas with a very low cost investment. we need to reduce regulatory burden. i have been blessed in arkansas. i have served two presidents in high positions. but the highest honor i could have as a public servant would be to serve the people of arkansas as your next governor. and i am here asking for your vote and i look forward to the closing days of this campaign has me really tell what we want to do for the state of arkansas. thank you very much. >> mr. ross? >> well, bob, david, thank you very much for hosting me this evening. i would like to begin by saying hello to my mom and dad and all

of my family and friends back home in ascot -- prescott. growing up in a small town, i never dreamed i would be sitting in a debate as a candidate for governor of this great state. it is happening for one reason. it is happening because i had the opportunity to receive an education that is second to none. that is what i want for your family. that is what i want for your children, for your grandchildren. i have a positive vision for the future of this. state, and it starts with education. my parents were school teachers, i am passionate about education because i believe that is how we create more and better paying jobs. that is how we move the middle class and allow more people to

become a part of the middle class in the state. job creation. i want to be the biggest economic ambassador and the state has ever had, and the we do that is by having an educated workforce. number two, i have a loo -- land for lower and fairer taxes. we will balance the budget first, do things in a fiscally responsible manner as the state can afford it, we will fund education, medicaid, and public safety. as we have revenue growth, we will cut taxes for hard-working folk all across the state. and finally, i want my daughter and your daughter, i believe all women in the state deserve to make same amount of money as their male counterparts. with the same education, doing the same jobs. i feel very strongly about giving women in the state the opportunity to be able to earn what their counterparts earn.

and a mystic violence, we will send a message loud and clear all over the state that domestic violence will no longer be tolerated in arkansas. i have a positive vision, and i hope you'll read all about it at mikeross.com. >> thank you for spending your night with us here at the arkansas governor debate. feel free to continue the conversation on social media and use the #argov. you will be old to deal d laswell is any other episode on the u a -- capital view app. have a great night. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by national captioning institute]

>> c-span campaign 2014 debate coverage continues monday night with the pennsylvania governor's race between republican governor tom corbett and tom wolfe. secondraska congressional debate. and then the iowa u.s. senate debate. c-span campaign 2014, more than 100 debates for the control of congress.

>> former defense secretary robert gates making news today, saying that boots on the ground would be necessary in iraq to defeat isis. president on the ground would be necessary to defeat isis. president obama has said repeatedly that they would not have a combat mission there. speaking on "this week," gates said that a small number of american advisers, trainers, and special forces will need to be in harms way in order to carry about -- carry out the president's mission. past week onthis capitol hill, the issue of boots on the ground came from the chip -- joint chiefs of staff chair, martin dempsey, chuck hagel, and witnesses. they spoke for just over three hours on the senate armed services committee.

additional u.s. personnel in iraq and training syrian fighters. you're watching live coverage here on c-span 3.

this meeting will come to order. we'll ask everyone to take their seats and be quiet or please leave. this morning the committee receives testimony from the secretary of defense and the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and the threat posed by the islamic state of iraq, known as isis or isil. and on the president's strategy for addressing this threat. secretary hagel and general dempsey, we welcome you both. we look forward to your testimony. isis has terrorized the iraqi and syrian people, engaging in kidnappings, killings, persecutions of religious minorities, and attacking schools, hospitals and cultural sites. isis has brought home its barbarity with the beheading of

american journalists and a british aid worker. while assiisis is focuses on building an islamic caliphate in the middle east, its poisonous ideology is hostile not only to the region but to the world and there is real risk that the area it controls can become a launching pad for future terrorist attacks against the united states and our allies. this threat is amplified by foreign fighters who travel from western countries to join with isis, and then return to their countries of origin with advanced training and fighting experience. i recently returned from iraq where u.s. air strikes are helping kurdish peshmerga forces and iraqi security forces break isis' momentum. however, our military leaders and intelligence experts uniformly say that air strikes alone will not be sufficient to defeat isis. a number of elements of a successful strategy against isis are embodied in the approach

outlined by the president last week. first, the participation of key arab states in the region will be critical to the effectiveness of any international coalition. if western countries act in iraq and syria without visible participation an leadership of arab nations, it will play into the propaganda pitch of the violent extremists that we want to dominate iraq and syria. isis and isil is a threat to all islamic countries and can only be purged in a lasting way by mainstream islam and the arab world. international conferences last week and in paris yesterday were a good start. with the number of arab states declaring their shared commitment to develop a strategy "to destroy isil wherever it is, including in both iraq and syria," and joining in an international pledge to use "whatever means necessary" to

achieve this goal. second, our assistance has been requested by the government of iraq, which has made a commitment to govern in an inclusive manner. the effort to rid iraq of isis cannot be successful without the support of all el. ments of iraqi society, including not only shiites, kurds and religious minorities, but also the sunni tribes who strongly oppose the maliki government. the more the new government in baghdad does to address the grievances of iraq's sunni communities, the more successful they will be in helping rid their country and the world of the isis poison. third, the president has announced that combat operations in iraq and syria will be carried out by iraqis and syrians. but the support of a broad international coalition. that is the better approach because in this part of the world, the use of military force by western nations can be counterproductive if it is not

done correctly. in the absence of a western target on the ground, isis' actions will undermine its own cause because its brutality will continue to be targeted at fellow muslims. we should be fully engaged in training and equipping iraqis, syrians, kurds and other local forces that are willing to take on isis, but we should try to counter the narrative of fanatics who attack western combat forces on the ground as an occupation. i believe the president under both domestic and international law has the authority to conduct the type of limited military campaign that he outlined last week. however, bipartisan, congressional support will make it easier for the president to build an international coalition, including the open and visible support of arab countries. we should have the chance before we leave to vote on legislation that would authorize the u.s.

military to openly train and equip the vetted moderate opposition in syria, and i hope that congress can come together to support it. senator inhoff. >> thank you, mr. chairman. after a year of the white house indecision and hand wringing, the president finally presented to the american people his strategy to defeat isis. however, that was announced last week fell sort in two vital areas that i want to share with you. first, the president again failed to acknowledge the seriousness of the threat that isis poses to the united states national security and its homeland. his claim that america is safe may support his political narrative but it is not true. secretary hagel, i appreciate your honesty when you described isis on august 21st. you said it is an imminent threat to every interest we have, whether it's in iraq or any place else. i agree with you. isis has reported 35,000 fighters. nearly three times larger than it was in june. it's tripled since june.

it is growing larger every day. it is estimated that at least 2,000 fighters hold western passports and at least 100 are u.s. citizens. that's coupled with their vast resources, large safe haven, blood thirst to kill more mens is a recipe for disaster. the administration continues to say no specific evidence of thoughts against the homeland exist. i want to remind everyone we didn't have any specific evidence or plots against the homeland before 9/11. now we face an extreme disorganization that is larger, more brutal and better networked and better funded than al qaeda ever was. i believe it is critical to have in the record that we established today how isis is fundamentally different from al qaeda. first of all, al qaeda hides in caves. isis takes holds and governs territories the size of my state of oklahoma. secondly, al qaeda has small groups of specialized fighters using terrorist tactics. isis is an army with tanks,

artillery, using conventional insurgent and terrorist tactics. al qaeda is based in remote regions of the world, isis sits on europe's doorstep. al qaeda outdated propaganda -- used outdated propaganda in arab language media but isis uses sophisticated media in multiple languages, including english. al qaeda spent $1 million -- this is very significant, mr. chairman. they spent $1 million on 9/11. isis we are going to say until today takes more than $1 million every day. there's an ap story it morning that shows very convincingly that they have access to an additional $3 million every day. now the second thing that i think is a vital area. the president's strategy to defeat isis is fundamentally detached from the reality on the ground. let's be clear.

isis commands a terrorist army surprised of tens of thousands of organizers fighters who have tanks and high-tech missiles and artillery. its conventional battlefield successes have allowed it to triple its ranks in size in only three months. it will take an army to beat an army. but instead the president presented the limited counterterrorism strategy that he compared to his approach in yemen and somalia. the difference between al qaeda in yemen and somalia and that of isis are enormous and our streej for each should reflect that reality. taking this one-size-fits-all is destined for failure. the architect of the successful u.s. air campaign that destroyed the taliban army on the battlefield in 2001 said, this is a quote, "we need to institute an aggressive air campaign in which air power is applied like a thunderstorm not like a drizzle. furthermore, air strikes can only be fully expectative especially in urban areas and isis is entrenched in.

when paired with skills of the trained air controller on the ground, the president already ruled out boots on the ground. there was a selective sigh of relief at isis headquarters in syria when they heard him say that. his claim of no boots on the ground is an insult to the men and women in iraq today who are serving in harm's way. we already have boots on the ground in baghdad and throughout iraq. we should ask the pilots dropping bombs over iraq whether they think they are in combat. pilots who face the real threat of having to eject over isis-held territory. i'm not advocating an army division or combat elements on the ground, but it is foolhardy for the obama administration to tie the hands and so firmly rule out the possibility of air controllers and special operators on the ground to direct air strikes and advise fighter forces. it sends the wrong message to our troops, to the enemy and their partners. furthermore, if congress does authorize the training and

equipping of the syrian moderate opposition, and then pushes them into combat without advisors on the ground, that effort is most likely to fail. and we still don't have answers to the most important and fundamental questions about what we're ultimately trying to accomplish such as what does a defeated or destroyed isis look like. finally, i hope we get answers today, not only to the president's strategy but also about the current state of our military residents. general dempsey, nothing significant has changed when you warned on february 12th of last year -- not this year -- that our military is on a path where the force may become "so degraded and so unready that it would be immoral to use force." with six years of massive budget cuts and another round of defense sequestrations on the horizon, we're still on that path. despite this, the administration is still calling on our military to support its pivot to asia, bolster our european allies against a growing russian

threat, successfully transition or missions and launch military operations against isis in iraq and syria. unlike what the president seems to believe, you can't have it both ways. fr9rgridx$ñ on one hand while expecting our military to do it on the other. if we want our military men and women to go into harm's way, defend this country, we need to give them the training, tools and support they need to sucsu succeed. the trademark of this administration -- a lot of tough talk, not backed by meaningful action. i was hoping we could debate these broad dly important issue but we have not been able to do that. looks like, mr. chairman, this is it. thank you. >> thank one senator inhoff. secretary hagel.

>> chairman levin, senator inhoff, members of the committee. chairman dempsey and i very much appreciate the opportunity -- >> okay. we're asking you again to please sit down and if not we're going to ask you to leave. no, thank you. thank you for -- would you please now leave? would you please now leave? i'm asking you to please leave. >> you're acting very war like yourself. would you please leave. >> no military solution to this. no more war. no military solution. no more war. >> thank you. >> mr. chairman, as i was saying, chairman dempsey and i very much appreciate the opportunity this morning to discuss the president's strategy to degrade and ultimately defeat isil. as you know, you all know, today president obama's in atlanta

meeting with cdc officials regarding the ebola crisis. then will travel tonight to tampa to receive a briefing from the commander of u.s. central command, general austin, on operational plans to implement his isil strategy. i'll join the president tomorrow in tampa for that briefing. the defense department civilian and military leaders are in complete agreement that the united states and our allies and partners must take action against isil and that the president's strategy is the right approach. however, as president obama has repeatedly made clear, american military power alone cannot, will not eradicate the threats posed by isil to the united states, our allies, and our friends and partners in the region. iraq's continued political progress toward a more inclusive and representative government in its programs of reform and reconciliation will be critical

to achieve the progress required. we believe that new iraqi minister, prime minister is committed to bringing all iraqis together against isil. to support him and the iraqi people in their fight, the coalition will need to use all its instruments of power. we intend to use all of those instruments of power, military, law enforcement, economic, diplomatic, and intelligence in coordination with all the countries in the region. to succeed this strategy will also require a strong partnership between our executive branch and our congress. the president has made it a priority to consult with congressional leadership on the isil challenge. as have vice president biden, secretary kerry and many senior members of the administration. i have appreciated the opportunities i've had to discuss the president's strategy with many members of this committee and other members of the senate and house over the last couple of weeks. europeani.

the world has seen isil's barbarity up close as its fighters advanced across western and northern iraq and slaughtered thousands of innocent civilians including sunni and she a muslims and kurdish iraqis and religious minorities. ais isil's murder of two journalists exposed their tactics. over the weekend, we saw isil's murder of a british citizen. isil now controls a vast swathe of eastern syria and western and northern iraq including towns and cities in all these areas. isil has gained strength by exploiting the civil war in sear

dwra and sectarian strive in rag. and it has seized territory and acquired significant resources and advanced weapons. isil has employed violence acon military tactics. isil has been very adept at using social media to increase its global profile and attract fighters. its goal is to become the new van guard of a global extremist movement and establish extremist islamic calliphatcaliphate. while isil clearly poses an immediate threat to american citizens in iraq and our interests in the middle east, we also know that thousands of foreign fighters, including europeans and more than 100 americans have traveled to syria. with passports that give them

relative freedom of movement, these fighters can exploit isil's safe haven to plan, coordinate and carry out attacks against the united states and europe. although the intelligence community has not yet detected specific plotting against the u.s. home land, isil has global aspirations and as president obama has made clear, isil's leaders have threatened america and our allies. if left up checked, isil will directly let p our homeland and our allies. in his address to the nation last week, president obama announced that the united states will lead a broad multinational coalition to roll back the isil threat. more than 40 nations have already expressed their willingness to participate in this effort and more than 30 nations have indicated their readiness to offer military support. president obama, vice president biden, secretary kerry and and others have been working and will ten to work to unite and

expand this coalition. at the nato summit, secretary kerry akon scrend i convened a of key partners. turkey by virtue of its common interests in destroying isil will play an important role in this effort. turkey joined our meeting in wales and secretary kerry and i continue to discuss specific contributions turkey will make. secretary kerry convened a meeting last week with the foreign ministers from the six gulf corporation councils nations egypt, iraq, jordan and lebanon. and all signed a communique to do their share in the comprehensive fight against isil including joining the many aspects of a coordinated military campaign against isil. also last week 2 it nations of

the arab league calling for comprehensive measures to combat isil.2 it nations of the arab league calling for comprehensive measures to combat isil.it nations of the arab league calling for comprehensive measures to combat isil.t nations of the arab league calling for comprehensive measures to combat isil. nations of the arab league calling for comprehensive measures to combat isil. and french president hollande hosted a conference attended by permanent members, arab leaders and representatives of the eu, arab league and the united nations. they all pledged to help iraq in the fight against isil, including through military assistance. key allies such as united kingdom, france and australia are already contributing military support and other partners have begun to make specific offers. at next week's u.n. general assembly, we expect that additional nations will be begin making commitments across the spectrum of capabilities. building on the strong chapter 7 u.n. security resolution adopted last month calling on all member states to take members to

counter isil and suppress the flow of foreign fighters to isil. also next week, from be will chair a meeting of the u.n. security council to further mobilize the international community. as you all know, former international security assistance force commander general john allen has been designated to serve as special presidential envoy for the global coalition to counter isil. president obama is meeting with general allen this morning. general allen will work in a civilian diplomatic capacity to sustain the coalition drawing on his expensive experience in the region. he will be the administration's point man to build support within the region. he will work closely with general austin to ensure that coalition efforts are aligned at croc all elements of our

strategy. in his address to the nation, the president outlined the four elements of this strategy. let me now describe how we are implementing this whole government roach. first, in close coordination with the new iraqi government, we are broadening our air campaign to conduct systemic air strikes against isil targets. to protect americans threatened by isil's advances, and to prevent humanitarian catastrophe, u.s. military has already conducted more than 160 successful air strikes which have killed isil fighters, destroyed weapons and equipment and enabled iraqi and kurdish forces on get back on the offense and secure infrastructure. these actions have disrupted isil tactically and have helped buy time for the iraqi government to begin forming an inclusive and broad based

governing coalition led by the new prime minister. that was one of president obama's essential pre-conditions for taking further action against isil. because the iraqi people must be united in their opposition against isil in order to defeat them, this will require a united and inclusive government. this is ultimately their fight. the new broader air campaign will include strikes against all-isil targets and enable iraqi security forces including kurdish forces to continue to recapture territory from isil and hold.security forces includ kurdish forces to continue to recapture territory from isil and hold. because isil operate as freely and maintains a safe haven in syria, our actions will not be restrained by a border in name only. as the president said last week, if you threaten america, you will find no safe haven.

the president of the united states as thas the constitutionl authority to use military. and centcom is refining those plans. this plan includes targeted actions against safe havens in syria, include ing its infrastructure. general dempsey and i have reviewed and approved the plan. second, kurdish and iraqi forces and moderate syria operations, to support them, the president announced he would deploy 475 additional troops to iraq. part of that number includes approximately 150 advisers and support personnel who supplement

forces already in iraq, conducting assessments of the iraqi security forces. this assessment mission is now transitioning to an advise and assist mission with more than 15 teams embedding with iraqi security forces at the headquarters level to provide strategic and operational vice and assistance. the rest of the additional 475 troops include 125 personnel to support intelligence, surveillance, and recognizance missions out of erbil. 200 personnel to increase headquarters elements in baghdad and ir beerbil. by the time all these forces arrive, there will be approximately 1600 u.s. personnel in iraq responding to the isil threat. but as the president said last week, american forces will not have a combat mission. instead these advisers are supporting iraqi and kurdish

forces and supporting the government's plan to stand up iraqi national guard units to help sunni communities defeat isil. the best counter wages to isil are local forces and people of the area. in june the president asked congress for the necessary authority for dod on train and equip moderate syrian opposition forces and $500 million to fund this program. we have now secured support from saudi arabia to host the training program for this mission and saudi arabia has offered financial and other support, as well. the $500 million requested in june for this train and equip program reflects centcom's estimate of the cost to train, equip and resupply more than 5,000 opposition forces over one year. the package of assistance that we initially provide would consist of small arms, vehicles, and basic equipment like

communications as well as tactical and strategic training. as they improve effectiveness on the battlefield, we will provide assistance to the most trusted commanders and capable forces. because dod does not currently train and equip mission, the administration has asked congress to proit authority in the continuing resolution it is currently now considering. a rigorous gutting process will be critical for the success of this program. the dod will work closely with the state department, the intelligence community and partners in the region to screen and vet the forces we train and equip. we will monitor them closely to ensure that weapons do not fall into the hands of radical elements of the opposition, isil or other extremist groups. there will always be risks. there will always be risks in a

program like this. but we believe that risk is justified by the imperative of destroying isil. and necessity of having capable partners on the ground in syria. as we pursue this program, the united states will continue to press for a political resolution to the syrian conflict resulting in the end of the assad are a ge regime. assad has created conditions that allow terrorist groups to gain ground.assad has created c that allow terrorist groups to gain ground. the united states will not cooperate with the assad regime. we will also continue to counter assad through diplomatic and economic pressure. the third element of the president's strategy is an all inclusive approach to preventing

attacks on the hope land. the united states will draw on intelligence, diplomatic and economic tools to cut off isil's funding, improve our intelligence,ll draw on intelligence, diplomatic and economic tools to cut off isil's funding, improve our intelligence,ill draw on intelligence, diplomatic and economic tools to cut off isil's funding, improve our intelligence, stem the flow of foreign fighters in and out of region. the department of justice and department of homeland security have launchedage initiative to partner with local communities to counter extremist recruiting and the department of treasuries office of terrorism and financial intelligence is working to disrupt isil's financing and expose their activities. the final element of theed from's strategy is to continue providing humanitarian assistance to innocent civilians displaced or threatened by isil. alongside the government of iraq, u.s. troops have already delivered life saving aid to threatened civilians on mt. sinjar. in total the u.s. military

conducted 32 air drops of food and supplies providing over 818 thurks pou81 818,000 pounds of aid and meals ready to eat. might be, last week the state department announced an additional $48 million in aid for civilian organizations to meet the urgent needs of iraq kiss displaced by isil. our total you humanitarian assistance to displaced iraqis is now more than $186 million for fiscal year 2014. the united states is also the sink guest largest donor of humanitarian assistance for the millions of syrians affected by the civil war. last week secretary kerry announced an additional $500 million. since the start, the united states has now committed almost $3 billion in humanitarian

assistant to those affected by the civil war. all four elementsct to those af the civil war. all four elementset to those afy the civil war. all four elements to those affe the civil war. all four elements require a significant commitment of resources on the part of united states and our coalition partners. mr. chairman, i think everyone on this committee understands fully this will not be an easy or a brief effort. it is complicated. we are at war with isil as we are with al qaeda. but destroying isil will require more than military efforts alone. it will require political progress in the region, and effective partners on the ground in iraq and syria as the congress and administration work together, we know this effort will take time. the president has outlined a clear comprehensive and workable strategy to achieve our goals and protect our interests. mr. chairman, senator inhofe, thank you for your continued

support and partnership. thank you. >> thank you very much, secretary hagel. thank you, would you please leave the room now? we're asking you nicely. we're asking you nicely to please leave the room. look, we're asking you nicely. would you please leave the room. thank you. we'll ask you for the last time. thank you very much. thank you for leaving. as soon as the noise is removed from the room, wild ae would as of you to avoid these kind of outbursts. they are are's not doing anybody any good including hearing the system and they're not doing you and whatever your cause is very good either. thank you very much. would you please -- i'm asking you nicely to please leave the room. we're asking you again please remove this gentleman. thank you very much.

good-bye. thank you. general dempsey. general dempsey. >> chathank you chairman. members of the committee, i do appreciate the opportunity to appear before you this morning. secretary hagel has described in detail the elements of our strategy against isil, the role the united states military is taking is in my judgment approach. job one is empowering the iraqi ground forces to go on the offensive, which they're already beginning on demonstrate. this requires a partnership with a credible iraqi government which is also showing positive signs of becoming inclusive of all of its population. within this partnership, our advisers are intended to help iraqis develop a mind set for

the offensive and take actions consistent with offensive. our military advisers will help the iraqis conduct cam been planning, argue for logistics support and coordinate coalition activities.been planning, argue for logistics support and coordinate coalition activities. if wi reach the point where i believe our advisers should accompany iraq troops, i'll recommend that to the president. as long as isil enjoys the safe haven in syria, it will remain a formidable force and a threat. so while this work in iraq is taking place, we will simultaneously pressure isil in syria. we will begin building a force of vetted, trained moderate syrias to take on isil. we will work to ensure that they have a syrian chain of command and report to a moderate political authority. this force will work initially at the local and community level and help pull together syrians who have most felt the harsh hand of isil. in conjunction with that long term effort, we will be prepared

to strike isil targets in syria that degrade us those capabilities. this won't look like a shock and awe cam been because that's simply not how isil is organized. but it will be a persistent and sustainable campaign. i want to emphasize that our military actions must be part of the whole government effort that works to disrupt isil financing and undermine the isil message. given a coalition of capable willing regional and international partners, i believe we can destroy isil, restore the border and disrupt isil in syria. isil will ultimately be defeated when their cloak of religious legitimacy is stripped away and the population reject them. our actions are intended to move in that direction. this will require a sustained effort over an extended period of time. it's a generational problem. and we should expect that our enemies will adapt their tactics as we adjust our approach.

as the situation in the middle east evolves and continues to demand our attention, we're also balancing other challenges in other regions along with reassuring our european allies against russian aggression. but young men and women in uniform are doing so much more. they conduct hundreds of exercises, activities and engagements every day, actions that deter con glikt and reassure allies around the world. they are performing magnificently. but i am growing increasingly uncomfortable that the will to provide means does not match the will to pursue ends. the secretary and i are doing what we can inside the department to bridge that gap, but we'll need your help. if we do not depart from our present path over time, i will have fewer military options to offer to the second and to the president. and that's not a position that i

wish to find myself. thank you. >> thank u veyou very much. we'll have a six minute first round. we all want to have an opportunity. and then if we go around once and have reasonable hour facing us, we'll try to have a very short second round. general dempsey, let me start by asking you for your professional military opinion of the military strategy which was announced by the president last week. do you personally support the strategy? >> i do, chairman. >> can you tell us why? >> because the nature of the threat is such that as i mentioned, it will only be defeated when moderate arab and muslim populations in the region reject it.

and therefore, the way forward seems to me to run clearly through a coalition of arab and muslim partners and not through the ownership of the united states and this issue. and so the strategy does that. it seems to build a coalition, encourage inclusive go. to address the grievances that have caused this in the first place, it implies u.s. military power where we have unique cape at to do so, and over time it you allows those populations to reject isil. >> and in terms of utilizing the on the ground forces that are syrian and iraqi rather than western forces, is that part of the thinking at this time, as well, to avoid a western ground force in an arab or muslim country for the same reason you just gave? >> well, i do think that the

approach to build the coalition and enable it leads knee leverage our unique capabilities which tend to be as i mentioned the ability to train and plan and provide intelligence and provide air power. as i said in my statement, however, my view at this point is that this coalition is the appropriate way forward. i believe that will prove true. but if it fails to be true, i would of course go back to the president and make a recommendation that may include the use of military ground forces. >> second hagel, you've made reference to this, but i'd like you to elaborate, that the coalition have strong visible participation by arab and muslim states.

>> you've just reflected to general dempsey on your point and i would pick up where general dempsey left off. this is not a west versus east issue. this is not a u.s. european coalition against muslim countries or muslim region. it's important that the world see especially the people in the middle east see that the threat is confronting them first and all of us needs to be addressed by the people of their region as well as all nations and all people in the world. to have arab muslim nations be present and public about their efforts in this coalition helps that and it's critically important to the ultimate success of winning against all

extremist factors and factions in the middle east specifically isil. >> in that same approach of having the people of these countries basically purge of strand of islam that is so poisonous trying to take over in their countries leads, i gather, to one argument of using indigenous national forces on the ground rather than outside and particularly western forces. >> yes. i said in my statement, mr. chairman, that the most significant powerful force against extremism in the middle east are the people themselves who will not accept that kind of barbarity and brutally. the muslims of the world know

what isil represents in no way is what their religion, what their ethnicity, what their b k background represents. and to have local forces be involved, supported by local!sbr people, is the most significant thing i think we can do as we support them, as we are doing and will continue to do in every way to defeat isil and other extremist threats. >> i believe you've testified that the goal is to equip and train about 5,000 in one year. now, how is that going to match up against the isil numbers and -- well, let me just start

with that one. >> well, as i have said and the president said and general dempsey has said and in our briefings here in our closed session briefings we've had with members of the senate and the house and our staff this week, 5,000 is a beginning. this is part of the reason this effort is going to be a long term effort. but we will do it right. we will be able to train and equip these forces through our ability to give them tactical, give them strategic guidance and leadership. kind of equipment they need where they can move not just as bands of a few people, but as legitimate forces. 5,000 alone is not going to be able to turn the tide to recognize that on this will

side. on the isil side, on different estimates that continue to come out, those estimates float, mr. chairman, because it is hard to pinpoint at any one time exactly what the strength of isil is. we know it's significant. we know because of their successes over the last few months they have picked up significant support. we also know a lot of that support is forced support. you will either be part of this or your family is killed or you will be. so it is an imperfect process. but the 5,000 per year -- and we might be be able to do better. but we don't want to overpromise because we want the right people. our part of the overall strategy that i articulated here as outlined by the president. >> thank you very much. senator inhofe.

>> thank you. i'd ask that you turn the maps over. this is just for reference. we put this together where the help of think tanks and the orange is what is under isil control right now. the gray would be the kurdish and brown the annumbitions of i. >> in terms of their ambition, i think that's probably understating. i think if left unaddressed, they would aspire to restore the ancient kingdom including the current state of israel and runs all the way down to kuwait. >> we're trying to be conservative on this. to let people know that is this a big area.

>> i think general dempsey stated it exactly right. >> according to some of the reports, u.s. intelligence agencies believe isil does not represent the immediate threat to the united states. in fact president obama's top counterterrorism adviser occurring his first term, he said members of the cabinet and top military officers all over the place describing the threat in lurid terms that are just not justified. and i appreciate secretary hagel the statement you made when you said that isis poses an imminent threat to every interest we have whether in iraq or anyplace else. do you still agree with that statement? >> i do. >> and do you, general dempsey? >> i do. >> one of the things that i was glad to see is that the american people, there has been a wake-up call. last week there was a cnn poll

that 70 respect about of the people in america believe it's a threat to the homeland. and yesterday a wall street journal poll, the same thing. 70% of the people. so i think that wake-up call has taken. now, president obama said our objective is clear, we would degrade and ultimately destroy isil through a comprehensive and sustained counter strategy. and we've talked about this, this is an army. and i outlined in my opening statement the six basic differences between al qaeda and what we're facing right now. do you generally agree with that? >> what i generally agree with, senator, is that they have been using conventional tactics until such time as we applied air power. they're beginning to adapt now. >> so you don't agree that that strategy that we would impose

against terrorists was appropriate today with looking in terms of the giant army that we're facing? >> no, i agree we have to build the capability of the isf and pesh to include it. >> secretary hagel, i'd like to get in the record here as to who is in charge of the war. we hear the state department saying that they're in line with control. if it's centcom commander austin, then i feel a lot better. is that who is in control of this? is it now military? >> yes. as i said in my opening statement, i tried to frame some of that up. for example what i mentioned about general allen's role, initial role. as a coordinating role. but i also said he would work

directly in that coordination with general austin as the centcom commander. that's why president obama will be with the centcom commander in tampa tomorrow to go over the plan. >> mr. secretary, my concern, i don't want people to be under the dilution that this is just another effort, another terrorist effort that we will be pursuing. asked by a reporter on september 11th to define victory against isil, the white house press said second i didn't bring my dictionary. secretary hagel, you didn't bring yours either. did you describe what victory looks like in the united states against isil? >> well, i believe victory would be when we complete the mission of degrading and destroying, defeating isil just as the president laid out that was his objective. >> i understand that. i got a different interpretation

when he said on the fight against isil, quote, it would not involve american combat troops fighting on soil. american forces do not have a combat mission. let me ask you two question, general p dempsey. in your opinion, are the pie the l pilots dropping bombs a direct combat mission and secondly will u.s. forces be prepared to comb search and rescue? >> yes and yes. >> i appreciate that. and then the last question i have, because i know i've gone beyond my time, we've been complaining about what's happened in the funding and now we're looking at the sequestration and all of this. in light of all of this that has occurred since we originally talked about the funding necessary, do you think we're adequately funded now to take care of all the things i've

stated in my opening statement and you have agreed to? where are we on our funding, are we adequate? >> well, two answers to your question. no is the first bafg answsic an. but the budget that we will be presenting as you know in a few months will contain what we believe will be required to carry forward for the longer term this effort. but in the short term, this is why we're asking for the $500 million authority for the train and equip. plus as you know the president had asked a few months ago for a $5 billion counterterrorism partnership fnd plus a billion dollar european might be difference fund, as well. so i think what general dempsey said in his statement probably summarized pretty well.

as you had noted, all of the different pressures that are now coming down on this country residing a good amount of it at the defense department, one of the things we've been warning about is sequestration. so we will come forward and our budget for the next fiscal year with some new requests. >> on behalf of the joint chiefs, because we've discussed this frequently about our ability to balance, last year we said the size of the force that was projected over the course of the defense plan was adequate to the task if the assumptions made were valid. and some of the assumptions we made were about commitments and some were about our ability to get pay compensation, health

care changes, infrastructure changes and weapon systems. he we didn't get any of those actually or very few, and the commitments have increased. so we do have a problem. and i think it will become clear through the fall. and it's not just a problem with the operational contingency funds. there a base budget issue, too. >> i know that's true before but you mentioned the treefchiefs. and they have testified that even before these things erupted, it was not adequate. risk increases when adequate is not mess. thank you. >> we have a quorum here now and so i'm going to ask the committee to consider the list of 2450 pending military nominations, they have been before the committee, the required length of time, is there a motion to -- is there a second? all in favor say aye. he opposed nay. motion carries. thank you very much.

senator reid. >> gentlemen, thank you for your testimony. general dempsey, we've had a debate about no boots on the ground, some boots on the ground. it might help us all if you would clarify precisely what our forces are doing in iraq today. you also suggested if the situation changes, you would come for us with recommendations that would enhance or change the mission. but can you clarify what they're doing? >> yeah, i can. thanks for asking. every should be aware when we talk about combat forces, that's all we grow. when we bring a young man or woman in the military, we they come into be a combat soldier or combat marine. we don't bring them in to be anything other than combat capable. but that's different than how we use them and in the case of our contributions in iraq right now,

the air men as the ranking member mentioned are very much in the combat role. folks on the ground are combat advisory role. there is no intense for them to participate this direct combat. but i've mentioned that if i found that circumstance evolving, i would of course change my recommendation. an example. if the iraqi security forces were ready to retake mosul, it could very well be part of that particular mission to provide close combat advising or accompanying for that mission. but for the day to day activities that i anticipate over time, i don't see to be necessary right now. >> one of the presumptions, and i'll just raise it, would be because we are using air power that there is sufficient capacity in the iraqi forces to coordinate the air power on the

ground? >> we've come -- let me use the mosul dam operation as a great example. on the ground we had the pesh mirg after the and counterterrorism security forces and in an operation somewhere in erbil, we had our own folks using predator feeds and a system we call the rover are to be able to help the iraqis manage the battle on the ground. three languages, english, occ kurdish and arab. but we worked through it. i'm not saying this will work every time, but we pull that ed mission off and i think it's a good template for future operations. >> and one area you're looking at are these capable iraqis who can communicate and coordinate on the ground that i eveir spec

forces particularly? >> trained by us, that's right. >> mr. secretary, are you proposing, the president is proposing, to train about 5,000 individuals a year to go back into syria. how do youq!@çgk3bñ integrate t forces back into syria? what is the plan after they're trained? >> senator, one of the points that i made a couple minutes ago in answering senator inhofe's question was the point about training them as units so they can operate as units. which as you know with your military experience is critically important as you build an effective opposition force. not just a hit and run group of

rebels, but an effective force command control tactics, strategy. . and so, yes, that is the fundamental training principal of how we begin. the length of time here depends on a number of things, but we're probably talking about eight weeks per cycle. it might move within a week or two. but that's the intent of how they would train. the centcom lead aers are alrea structured to do that, are preparing. and one of the things the president will get tomorrow as he spends the day with general austin and centcom planner and commanders in tampa is taking him through that entire structure. >> thank you. general dempsey, i think in your remarks or the secoretary's remarks, you suggested immediate

operations would probably most likely be in iraq simply because we have the iraqi national security forces, we're already appe partners with them. but that will be isil in a position as we hopefully become more effective of making a decision to reinforce or respond in iraq and weaken them in syria or pull back into syria. so i think your strategy is probably the most effective use of what we have at the time. but would you like to comment on that? >> the strategy is to squeeze isil from multiple directions so that they can't do what they have been doing which is maneuver places where they're not under pressure. so if we can get the ghoechlt of iraq to reach out to these populations that have been disadvantaged during the maliki regime so that the isil doesn't have a free flowing stream in

which to float and if we can get -- we've done an assessment and we know which one are capable of partnering. if we can get enough of them to go on the offensive from west to north, and find a way to disrupt using air power and pressure using moderate opposition, then i think we've placed isil in an untenable position. and in the middle of that, restore the border so they can't 234r flow back and forth freely. >> that you think you. senator mccain. >> thank you. i thank the witnesses. i understand according to your testimony that we will be training and equipping approximately 5,000 in one year, is that correct? >> yes. >> and isil now the estimates

are that there are some 31,000 metastasizing in a very rapid fashion into a much larger force. on many of us, that seems like inadequate response to what -- >> would you please be quiet? i'm asking you to please remove this lady. disruptions will not be acceptable to anybody. please remove the lady from the room. thank you very much. thank you. >> i always appreciate special attention from this group, mr. chairman. >> senator mccain.

>> obviously this group of 5,000 as you mentioned in unit size deployments will be back in syria fighting against isil. they will also be fighting against bashir assad which they have been doing for a number of years before isil was ever a significant factor. now, they will be fighting against bashir assad and bashir assad will attack them from the air which he has done and with significant success, not only against them, but there's been 192,000 people slaughtered in syria since the onset. if one of the free syrian army is fighting against bashir assad and he's attacking them from the

air, would we take action to prevent them from being attacked by bashir assad? >> senator, let me begin the first part of your question, the 5,000. >> dispense with that. i'd like to answer the question will we, if the free syrian army units are attacked from the air by bashir assad, will we prevent those attacks from taking place and take out assets both helicopter and fixed wing that will be attacking the free syrian army units? >> well, we're, first of all, not there yet, but our focus is on isil. and that is the threat right now to our country and to our interests and to the people of the region. so what we're training these units for, yes, as a stabilizing force in syria as an option, but the first focus is as i just

said as the president laid out in his statement to the country -- >> i take it from your answer that we are now recruiting these young men to go and fight in syria against isil but if they're attacked by bashir assad, we won't help them? >> they will defend themselves. >> but will we help their against assad's air -- >> we will help them. >> will he wiwe repel the air attacks? >> any that we have trained and are supporting us, we will help them. >> i guess i'm not going to get an answer. but it seems to me that you have to neutralize as sad owingsad a

that you haassets? >> the coalition forming center won't form unless -- if we were to take assad off the table, we'd have a much more difficult time forming a coalition. but i think what you're hearing us express is an isil first strategy. i don't think we'll find ourselves in that situation given what we intend to do with -- >> you don't think that the free syrian army is going to fight against bashir assad who has been decimating them, you think these people you're training will only go back to fight against isil? do you really believe that, general? >> what i believe, senator, is that as we train them and develop a military chain of command linkeded to a political structure, that we can establish objectives that defer that challenge into the future. we do not have to deal with it now. >> that's a fundamental misunderstanding of the entire concept and motivation of the free syrian army. bashir assad has killed many

more are of them. >> i agree. >> and for to us say that we will help and train and equip these people and only to fight against isil, you're not going to get many recruits to do that, general. i guarantee you that. and that's a fundamental fallacy in everything you are presenting this committee today. secretary hagel, was the president write in 2012 when he overruled most of his national security team and refused to train and equip the moderate opposition in syria at that time? >> senator, i was not there at the time, so i'm limited -- >> i'll ask general dempsey there. he was there at the time. >> i'm sorry, senator, when you asked the question --nre. he was there at the time. >> i'm sorry, senator, when you asked the question --e. he was there at the time. >> i'm sorry, senator, when you asked the question --. he was there at the time. >> i'm sorry, senator, when you asked the question -- >> was the president right in 2012 when he overruled secretary of state and dweirector of the a and refused to train and equip the moderate forces which you

say we're doing today? >> you know i recommended that we train them and you know that policy reasons, the decision was taken in another direction. >> thank you. are you concerned, secretary hagel, about our southern border? we received testimony from our homeland security people that our border is porous and the people who are now free to travel to the united states and also other radical element, might cross our so you were b e southern border to attack the united states. >> i'm always concerned about our border. >> is that a serious concern of yours somestates. >> i'm always concerned about our border. >> is that a serious concern of yours some>> i'm always concern our border. >> is that a serious concern of yours some? in other words, do we have to improve border security? >> we can improve our border security. >> thank you. my time has expired. >> senator nelson.

>> senator mccain, you're aware that there were published reports of covert training. >> i'm aware of it and i'm also aware of the scale of the training that was required. and i'm also aware of the situation today. and i'm also aware that 192,000 people have been slaughtered, a lot of them with the so-called barrel bombs which -- and the use of chlorine gas which has caused a hugh mmanitarian disas of incredible proportions. yes, i'm aware of that. >> general dempsey, are you aware of the published reports of covert training. >> senator, we don't comment in public about any aspect of covert training. >> mr. secretary, as you know, i

believe that the president has the constitutional authority to go on and attack isis. this is going to be for the long haul and eventually this issue will have to come to congress for authorization for the use of military force. and you all have an appropriations request right now. my question is, if congress does not approve, and i've heard some members of congress say that they're not going to vote to approve this $500 million request, if they did that and refused before we adjourn to go home for the election, what kind of message do you think that

sends? >> well, i think that message would be very, very seriously misunderstood and misinterpreted by our allealley, our friends, our adversaries. this is a clear, clear threat what the president has talked about, the threat to this country from isil. and what his request is reaching out to the congress for partnership as he has done in consultation with many, many members of the congress to be partners in this effort to protect this country. and if the congress would not agree to that request, it would be a pretty devastating message that we're sending to the world.

>> i happen to -- >> all right. all right. would you please not take advantage of the freedom of this place, would you please remove this lady from the room. this disruption is not helping the facts be known. >> as you know, mr. secretary, i've taken this position and i think he, the president, has the constitutional authority to go on and attack inside syria. the fact that you're making this request and as you've testified here today that you'll train up 5,000 over the course of the next year, does that basically mean any kind of coordinated effort on the ground in syria is delayed for a year?

>> if we don't have ground capability in a moderate opposition, yes, it affects a rather significant dimension of the overall strategy. >> as you know, some peoplei+vt saying that attacking isis both this iraq and syria is playing into their hand by then them using that to divide muslims against us. what is your opinion? >> this is why the coalition including out front publicly muslim arab countries is so critical to this. and i noted that i think in one or two of my answers this morning as well as in my testimony. >> can you shed anymore light as

isis as one of the two of you have sf e have testified recedes in to an urban area and takes shelter there among civilian population, how in iraq for example can the r iraqi security forces be able to root them out of that civilian territory? >> well, this again is why we need the people themselves in iraq in syria to support a unified unity inclusive representative government in rag to help them do that. the sunni tribes are critical to this. what has allowed so many of this to happen, senator, as you know as you visited there many times is the last government in iraq, the last five years, have

actually can x. asser baited the effort and intentionally destroyed the capability of a unity government to bring in the sunni kurdish populations to a government that they would trust, that they could have confidence in, that they knew would work in everyone's interests. so your question cuts directly to the overall effort of what the president talked about in a new inclusive unity government which we have some confidence in. but we believe that a body will do so far in his appointments to his cabinet we've seen evidence of that inclusiveness. >> thank you. senator wicker. >> thank you for your him today. here's how i view it. the surge in iraq ordered by

president george w. bush worked. president obama rejected the advice of many top military leaders to leave a residual force. our administration did not make every effort that it possibly could to gain status of forces agreement in iraq. and so we completely withdrew. and now isis is there controlling large parts of the territory and reeking the havoc that the president is responding to. i am willing to help the president and to help you gentlemen take this hill again if i believe there is a plan that will work and be successful if training 5,000 troops bhi the end of one going to help

us be successful against something that has already metastasized at 31,000, which is the size of isis now, i want to help if it is convinced it will work and if we have assurance we will not throw away our gains this time as we did after the surge worked. general dempsey, in answer to the question by the chairman of this committee do you support the president's strategy you say that you do. the "washington post" reports that mr. obama has rejected the recommendation of his top military commanders, the u.s. special operations force be deployed. is that report correct in the "washington post" and where do

you come down on that recommendation? >> no. that report is not correct. where i came down on recommendation in terms of having advisers accompany -- this is the issue we are describing, whether advisers who are already there and generally resident in headquarters, whether they would accompany the iraqi security forces into combat. i have not come to an occasion where i believe that is necessary. we are able to provide them air power using full motion video. >> who is doing fine? >> the iraqi security forces. if i get to the point where for a particular mission i think they should accompany i will make that recommendation. >> and i did hear you say that and i at least appreciate that. let me submit for the record a column in the post by mark

thesen where in he talks about general lloyd austin, a top commander u.s. forces in the middle east. to quote he advised president obama against withdrawing recommending that the president leave 24,000 u.s. troops to secure the military gains made in the surge and to prevent a terrorist resurgeance. had obama listened to austin's council the rise of the islamic state could have been stopped. where did you come down on that debate at that point? >> well, actually, senator, as you know we don't debate anything in the military. we let our elected officials make their decisions. it is well known that all military leaders believed we needed to leave some residual force in iraq to continue the development of the security forces. there is a debate in which i am

not a participant about whether we tried as hard as we could to leave it there. that is a debate that will continue, i believe. i thought we should have left forces there. i travelled to iraq and i was the chief staff in the army at that time and discussed it with the prime minister. i don't know how history will exactly describe this. let me describe malaki as a difficult partner most of the time. >> on the issue of trying hard enough i think anybody who has really observed the situation would acknowledge that a government, a united states government that can go into iraq today and persuade the prime minister to step down could certainly have mustered the skills to get them to sign a status of forces agreement. so it is obvious to me that we didn't try very hard. i want us to win. i want us to defeat isis.

but i want a plan that can be successful and i'm not sure if 5,000 trained in a year can be successful against 31,000. and i want to make sure we don't make the same mistake again by throwing the gains away. one quick question to you, secretary hagel. in reading your testimony about what the coalition partners are going to do i have no idea specifically what we are asking of them or what we can expect. they have expressed their willingness. they have indicated their readiness. they want to help to do their share, begin making commitments, take measures to suppress the flow. i have no idea based on your testimony what our coalition partners are expected to do or even what we want them to do. >> senator, my intent was not to

give you that inventory this morning and go through that. >> are you able to? >> we can do that privately in closed session with a number of countries. that is what we are doing right now. we are in the process of doing that right now as i mentioned over the last two weeks we have been building the coalition. we have been organizing the coalition. general allen's main job as i noted in my testimony is doing that right now. he is meeting with the president this morning. we have all finalized that effort. we have a list of over 40 nations who we have talked to, most have come to us who have volunteered specific areas of expertise, what they would do. we will make specific requests. but that is ongoing right now. that is part of the plan. >> will saudi pilots and jets be involved in air strikes? >> like i said, it is part of the plan and i don't want to get into the specifics of that in an

open hearing. as i have said in my testimony and as secretary kerry has said as recently as yesterday, we have middle eastern allies who have said that they will be involved in military operations with us. for right now in an open hearing let me leave it that way but let me assure you that that is going on right now and it is a key part of what we need to do. >> if i can assure the senator that when lloyd austin and i convene a chief of defense conference soon after the president approves the campaign plan there are a couple of things we need to accomplish, we need to make the campaign plan the iraqi campaign plan and the arab nations need to be real. this is military, now. i'm not looking for political support. i'm looking for special forces advisers and trainers and tankers and for isr and strike

aircraft. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. just to clarify a different set of circumstances, when malaki and the government of iraq told us to get out and refused to do a status of forces agreement i'm pretty sure iran was with them on that, correct? iran was very close to malaki and iran wanted us out of iraq as much as the iraqi government did at the time. is that a correct assessment? >> i guess i'm stuck with this one because i was the one here. here i am. i said i didn't want to get into the debate and now i'm in the debate. who knows what was going through prime minister malaki's head at the time? i can tell you he had an almost obsessive notion of his sovereignty. was he influenced by iran?

undoubtedly. it is hard to say. he was a very reluctant partner. >> it is a much different situation now in terms of getting malaki to step down. iran was very concerned about isil taking over iraq and what that meant. and clearly there was pressure being exerted for malaki to step down by iran. for us to take credit for getting malaki to step down is unrealistic in light of what the geo political forces were in their neck of the woods at that point in time? >> i was here on this episode. i can tell you that it wasn't the united states that pushed malaki out. it was his own people. iran being part of that. so it wasn't the united states dictating that malaki stay or not stay. let's not forget that iraq is a

sovereign nation. it has elections. we may not like the outcomes, but it is a sovereign country. that was the entire point when president bush signed the december 2008 agreement to leave iraq. it was a sovereign nation. the united states didn't force or push through some new system of influence malaki out. it was the people that made that decision. >> i want to touch on the issue of the shi'a militia. as we looked at the surge one of our successes in the surge was certainly our ability to bring over moderate sunnis and that was noted at the time and talked about a great deal about our ability to finally get the cooperation of a lot of moderate sunnis. clearly the moderate sunnis have thrown in with isil because of the political problems that they were confronted with in terms of

exclusion from the iraqi government. so the clerics put out the call to repel isil to the shi'a militias. they have been partially responsible for the successes that have occurred on the ground. what are we doing? this is just one of many complex problems that presents itself in this tangle that we are in. one of the most complex is how we are going to deal with the empowerment of the shi'a militia within the iraqi security forces moving forward as we try to ultimately get a political solution which is a unified government and security forces that represent all parts of that country? >> a couple of things, senator. i am a little reluctant and try not to talk about the sunniism monolithic block. it looks like isil have geographic objectives. it has tribal objectives.

it eats its way tribe by tribe. if we showed the tribes on that slide it would probably be 48 to 54 different tribes that isil has coerced or driven away. the sunni are nottsn8jn8zr mon any sense. we have to remember that. the second thing is on your question about the shi'a militia. i think our offer of support here is, will be conditional. that is, for example, there were 50 iraqi brigades that we assessed. 26 of them we assessed to be reputable partners. that is to say they have remained multi confessional. they are well led and have a commitment to the central government. the other 24 concerned us a bit on the issue of infiltration and

leadership and sect arianism. we can condition our support. >> finally, i'm assuming this is a contingency operation and wanting to point out that the new provisions of the work contracting legislation put into law should be applicable for this effort. i know there is some talk that you have asked for cost estimates for security assistance, mentors and advisers in iraq through a contracting platform. and i don't know are we building training facilities in saudi in the american government? if so i wanted to sound the alarm now before rather than after. usually i am hollering about after. i want to sound the alarm before that all of these contracting provisions that we have worked so hard to get into place that we don't go down the road of mistakes that we have travelled so frequently. >> i can assure you, senator,

that any commitments we made in contracting or anything else we will follow the law clearly and consult with congress. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you, chairman. i want to thank both of you for your service during these challenging times. i wanted to follow up on a question about providing our advisers and special forces embedding them with iraqi forces. i believe you said you don't believe that is necessary right now. would you agree with me, though, that air strikes are much more effective with having our special forces or having a sort of capability in terms of the effectiveness of strikes on the ground with our people? >> it depends on the kind of contact that the two forces are