this election season, aarp is focused on making sure older voters know where the candidates stand on issues that matter. find out more at aarp.org\yourvote. -corn fuel in claremont. we believe in adding value to the investment while producing sustainable products for the world. minnesota.t education minnesota, 70,000 teachers, school, staff, and higher education faculty working together to prepare students for successful lives. and, asked me minnesota. a union of 43,000 workers who advocate for excellence in public services, dignity in the workplace, and opportunity and prosperity for working families. ofs has been a coproduction pioneer public television, appleton, and austin rochester.

♪ this weekend on the c-span networks, tonight at 10:00 on c-span come a conversation with john paul stevens. on saturday night at 9:00 eastern, the founder and former chair of microsoft, bill gates on the ebola virus outbreak in west africa. sunday evening at 8:00, the director of the smithsonian national museum of african art. two,ht at 8:00 on c-span john u.n. bruce fein talk about war and the constitution. heather cox richardson on the history of the republican party.

door --l affairs at a editor at reuters. 3.night at 8:00 on c-span eastern, former fbi agents on catching the unabomber suspect. american artifacts, the 100th anniversary of the panama canal. find our television schedule on c-span.org and let us know what you think about the programs you are watching. tweet.us or send us a join the c-span conversation. like us on facebook, follow us on twitter. more live public affairs programming here on c-span as we take you to the american enterprise institute in washington for a discussion on jacqueline.ty with

howwill be talking about entrepreneurial approaches can help address global poverty. she is being introduced by arthur c brooks. andy name is arthur brooks you are at an aei event. harnessing the power of marketing to tackle global poverty my friend, jaclyn. those of you who are here no of the a credible -- incredible, schmitz in the approaches -- incredible accomplishments. jaclyn is the founder and ceo of acumen. a nonprofit impact investing

fund that we are going to be talking about in much greater detail today. it changes the way the world tackles poverty by investing in companies. there is not a bright line between the philanthropy and free enterprise. it is an amalgam of the two approaches. leadership,'s acumen has invested more than $88 million in aid companies. is that correct? >> yes. it might be over $90 million as of yesterday. >> these are companies in south asia and africa. basically all over the world where there is a need for this approach, delivering health care, water, housing, education and energy. all of this oriented to the poor. these companies have created and andorted 60,000 jobs brought basic services to more than 123 million people. her background before joining acumen is a marvel.

she founded and directed a philanthropy workshop in the next generation leadership program and cofounded a micro-finance institution in rwanda. and she began her career at chase manhattan bank. she is on the board of a number of great organizations such as the aspen institute. she's the author of the 2010 bestseller "the blue sweater." if you haven't read it, you should. insights.a lot of key i've known about her for a long time and i'm delighted to say that we've become friends over the past few months. we had a terrific dinner the other night in new york city where we talked about the biggest issues facing us in politics in america and around the world and how all of us can be better ready to serve the poor. been looking forward to this one

for a long time. welcome, jaclyn. .> thank you, arthur >> i want to start with a bit of background. some people know really well what acumen does. those who don't are going to be amazed. can you walk us through one of your recent projects from investors to entrepreneurs to customers? thisus the full flavor of phenomenon because that's what it is. it's not an investment vehicle. it's a phenomenon. >> great. pour at the very early stage of change, flap the philanthropists. we find those entrepreneurs were willing to tackle the biggest problems they see. i'll give you an example. it doesn't immediately come to mind for most people, but it's emergency services, ambulances.

you have a big bloated, corrupt government system and a small private sector and joint system, both of which are broken. come iffew years ago you wanted to go to the hospital, you would call a taxi. if you wanted to go to the morgue, you would call an ambulance. the first thing that happens, entrepreneur comes in and says i have this great idea. systemng to bust this and build you a much better system. -- if iricing model take you to a pay hospital, you pay. i take you to a public clinic, it's free or whatever you can afford. it is done through the private sector. no traditional investor is going to put money into a company like that, particularly in a city like mumbai. and by our philanthropy

30% of this company. becauseatient capital it has to be long-term so the entrepreneurs can risk, fail, learn, starting in. -- start again. i don't think we understand how much they have to fight vested interests in bureaucracy. everything from time to get a tober without paying bribes sabotage of their company to teaching people that there's actually a legitimate system. you have to build market. what happens there are factors -- as this company is growing and we continue to invest capital, we use more philanthropy to bring in leadership, talent. seven fellows over seven years. there is a terrorist attack in mumbai and suddenly, not only does acumen see this thing works , but the population and government sees that a city

needs an emergency response system the world can count on. the same thing happened in the united states in the cold war when eisenhower saw that we only had a private sector ambulance company. if we got attacked by a nuke, we did not have an emergency response system. that's when government came in and start partnering with the private sector to build out a public system. the same thing happened in india. this company went from a private company into partnership with government. we could put more traditional capital at that point into the company and now, that little eight ambulance company has 1000 ambulances to my 5000 employees and serves 200 million people across india. firstonday, opened its fleet of ambulances in mumbai. there is a copycat and pakistan and saudi arabia.

you can really make public change starting with private resources and private innovation. >> how long was this from eight ambulances to 1000? >> almost eight years. >> this is a really high rate of change. doubling every year for a long time. and then some. >> when you look at traditional n traditional funds, people have money in and out anywhere from 3-7 years and one high returns. bought a 30% share in the eight england company. how much was that? >> i can't tell you because we have until the company ayet. -- we haven't sold the company at. >> your investors are going to get a big return. in the firstors phase of this company were all philanthropists.

acumen will get a return and that will be used to reinvest in other innovations. be a successght story with a five x return to our capital, there are a lot of failures that happened as well. side-by-side, we do a lot of philanthropy to put talent into the company so that this company could succeed. from our perspective, success is that we build a company that is good for change. you create jobs. we busted a category, if you will. willhen, the mega home run be when the capital comes back so we can reinvest it. >> paint a picture of the people putting in the capital. the donors so that acumen can make these investments. who is the kind of person who is investing in acumen? >> we have about 400 people around the world from 22

countries. local pakistanis, kenyans, ghanaians, indians, colombians. from a say anything young person in banking giving us $5,000 a year up to names you would recognize that support acumen with $1 million year. greatee not only efficiency in the way they are using philanthropy for change, but long-term sustainability. if you get these right, you don't shut it down because you have a company that is working and it's working over the long term. foundations are also working with us. corporations are now coming to us. as these companies build and scale, they have the same issues that major companies have. targeting issues eared --

marketing issues. barclays is bringing their talents to help build out these companies. >> have used on a similar startups like acumen -- have you spawned similar startups like acumen? >> there have been 300 impact investment funds that have started. there is a sector called impact investing. otherk on metrics with organizations to help create almost a trade association called aspen network of enterprises. looking at standards for how you measure impact. i think that we are starting to see a great conversion from arthur. where everybody starting to recognize we have to do things differently. the private sector, government and philanthropy. if we are going to create a system that includes everybody. >> you talk about patient

capital. you're not kind to get the return in a month. expect toshould not get the return in a month because it sometimes takes a long time. you've written about patient capital being a third way to think about aid. that suggests there are two other ways. what are the first two ways that are less adequate? >> in some ways come it's connected to my own background. i started off on wall street. i saw the power of markets in latin america. sometimes over exploiting the poor. on the other side, when i moved to rwanda, i saw the power of smart philanthropy and top-downe tendency of approaches to traditional aid and charity to create dependence.

ini have learned anything this career of mine comments it's that prosperity is more important than wealth. we have to find those initiatives and enable people to have freedom and choice and participate. what patient capital does as a third way is to take the best to determine its success based on those enterprises that can sustain themselves and move to profitability by bringing affordable services to the poor, which will require a mix of hard-core investment and philanthropy side-by-side, long enough until you've created some sort of system where the pork and participate. -- where the poor can participate. >> those are two of your

investment criteria. how did you know about this ambulance company? how do you find the companies to invest in? >> when we first started, we did not. we were scrambling trying to create the idea that this was possible. now, there is a field that has spawned. we look at 100 companies for every company we invest in. we are not any different in terms of the numbers from a typical venture capital firm. the four screens would be one, is this truly serving the poor? people making one dollar a day. ipo that matters? , who is this entrepreneur? not only does this entrepreneur have the self-awareness and the

capacity to build the company that will serve millions, but the ethical fibers that will let them do it in a way that's not corrupt. do they have the determination and grit to fight what they know is going to come down the pipeline at them? the last two are around the business model. profitability? we are not going to spend 10 years if your endgame is 10,000 people. >> they're exactly the same criteria you have as a traditional for-profit commercial venture capital form. firm.ture capital >> we need entrepreneurs to have more grit and determination. how the to understand poor make decisions. i can't tell you how many amazing engineers come in with water technology that's going to

change the world. but they have never spent any time in a village and don't understand how people make decisions. i could put money on it that it isn't going to work. >> give me an example of a terrific idea that would be unworkable. [laughter] >> probably our first big failure, which was unfortunately our second investment or maybe fortunately because people gave us a pass, was an electromagnetic center which was a way -- if you don't really understand it, you have no business investing. >> i want to invest in that. >> i like saying it when we first did it. tests a low-cost way to whether someone had a disease. mess ofd not have the

blood. taking a technology like that to market costs tens of millions of dollars. not only changing individual behavior, but changing market structures was an impossibility for us. on the water filtration side, which is one of the hardest areas, we will get very cool -- where a backpack and take it house to house to deliver water to the poor. people care about how their water tastes a lot. they care about whether they trust you and what this water is peered people underestimate -- they underestimate how human we all are. they care about beauty, comfort, status. we are willing to pay a higher price to get it.

we sometimes bring in our own cultural arrogance by thinking we are doing good for others and actually, our being insulting and misguided. >> a lot of venture capitalists will say the biggest problem they have with entrepreneurs with great ideas as they over invest in technology and under invest in relationships. under emphasized among many entrepreneurs that are not that comfortable with the humans. capital is looking for those who say, oh, actually we know how this integrates into the human experience. tell me what went wrong with that one. walk me through that failure a bit more. >> this goes back 13 years now. in that case, our capital did

not have to be patient because it just burned. way --n patiently when a impatiently went away. [laughter] >> it actually made us move away from technology. the insight we got from it was was going to go much further by looking at health delivery systems what ambulance is -- like ambulances. now, we are starting to look at technology in a different way. back then, it was the.com boom. now, with mobile phones, you start to see some real change through that technology. show me the system, show you how

understand that how you understand the distribution and the poor make decisions. >> the thing you learned from int was what my friends venture capitalism will tell you which is don't under emphasized the role of human interaction. don't be so enamored with the tech. >> and acumen, we train our leaders, including our team, in three real disciplines. andncial, investing, operatio operations and imagination. moral imagination. being able to put yourself in somebody else's shoes. >> empathy. >> even more than empathy.

it's empathy in a very pragmatic way. probably the best story i had that comes to mind is a company called daylight. a solar light company. we invested at the prototype level. big,s a light that was too but we thought build it and they will come. it had to be iterated on many times. sells aboutompany 500,000 units a month in africa and has brought affordable solar light to 40 million people. i happen to be visiting one of those individuals with this big australian distributor for africa. it was this tiny woman, a grandmother. i said to her, "tell me what you

like and don't like about this like." people would always say nice things and charity because use given-- because you've them a gift. in this model, she's a customer. i did not expect her to be quite as forthcoming as she was and she puts her hands on her hips and she says i'm "well, if i could charge my cell phone at the same time, this would be a much better product." .hat's a great insight -- went on give him to give him for recommendations. this woman talked to this big why iout -- this is started acumen. she is not pandering or begging. she is talking to him as an he is as a customer and trying to earn her trust. in that interaction, they have

the opportunity to transform each other. thate, that's the dignity comes from real moral ad imagination. i'm here to build something with you because we both have something to bring and that is the way the world can actually change. >> the relationship between two people is remarkably different when it's a customer versus a grant recipient. in termshan a customer of i'm going to extract whatever i can from you. the more i think about patient capital, i think of it as a on asophy that is based more human approach to the type of capitalism we have to build for the world. there is a craving for it. certainly in this next generation. >> for sure.

i -- one of the worries that you and i share as we talk , you look around today and you look at the -- if youdialogue when characterize it -- you think about the free enterprise discussion, people think of that as something on the political right. when you talk about the poverty discussion, that's something on the political left. that's wrong. ei otheracumen and ati and other organizations do to help people using both tools? >> it's one of the reasons i so

deeply appreciate you as a thought leader and what you represent and we need more of you. so thank you for being you. >> thank you. i want to make sure everybody got that. [laughter] >> we are not afraid to talk about where we disagree. let's start with the 85% of agreement. i think we actually need to listen to the poor. some of the most surprising conversations which were incredibly intimidating were in small communities. imagine writing a book about people who are standing there trying to event. -- trying to vent. we want markets to work for us because we work -- we live in a elol market system -- cru

market system. we don't get health care and was unless we pay up front or we die. listen, starting with the people who are most impacted by the policies created. maybe we would start to have more empathy and we would build smarter conversations that translate into smarter policies . maybe i should bring a whole group to nairobi so people can see. >> do you think this insight about the complete harmonious nets between poverty relief and free enterprise is properly understood? brutal capitalism that does not help people is not free enterprise. that's one of the key distinctions between pure is this the same problem we have with the poor in the united states?

i'm going to assume this is not simply relegated to south asia and sub-saharan africa. do you see this around the united states as well? the poor don't have access to everything from the safety net to truly -- >> it's absolutely the same in the united states. is that does differ we've got so many public programs that are also dysfunctional that could be made more functional using companies to push -- an example i would get would be when you look in our health care system, the united states spends far and away more money on private and public health care than any other country in the world. yet, you look at how poor numbers are getting worse and worse, particularly for the poor. bangladesh when you

look at african-american males in this country. on health outcomes? >> life expectancy, health outcomes. rates inmortality mississippi and alabama. they are better in india than the united states and some of our poorest southern in some of our poorest southern states. there are real opportunities for the young social entrepreneurs cannot say government is bad or good, but are there ways to create more efficient and effective ways to get people ?ccess >> look into your crystal ball a

bit. you've been thinking a lot about how we can fix problems and poverty in new and interesting ways. we spoke with bill gates. the bill gates. [laughter] he made a pretty stunning prediction. poverty -- werue can define poverty anyway we want. anything from under $35 a day if we want. he says poverty is traditionally -- it will be effectively eradicated by the year 2035. what say you? >> if your definition of true poverty is a technical

definition of people making less than one dollar 25 a day -- $1.25 a day or countries falling within the poor versus on poor category, that's a real possibility. if your definition of true poverty, which is our definition and acumen, which is much more dignityd to human -- we have a long way to go. be so much more of the world we all want if we look at poverty in material and spiritual terms. thing.want the same

we have a long way to go. we don't have poverty in that technical poverty cents. a quarter of our kids go to bed hungry every night. that's where the work needs to be done. on a lackoverty based of capability, freedom, choice. >> interesting. a more holistic understanding of need suggests that we are still going to have need in 2035 and there will still be challenges and opportunities for us. 25% of people in the united states go to bed hungry tonight. 25% of public schoolchildren children don't receive inadequate education that career thatsort of is productive in the american economy. work unlesshis all we make sure that we have people

who are ready and able to participate and desiring to participate? >> the definition of need is complicated. but it's great that you're talking about this. tell me more. what would it mean for people to have human dignity? that, when i wake up in the morning, actually have the opportunity to work. in many of the places in which we work, people have been resettled two years out of a hi to move government housing or what have you and they have to take a bus for two for twoa day into town hours to hope that somebody will hire them as a day laborer. they end up often not going.

sick, you don't have to prostitute your self or that willney launder keep your family and poverty. you have a way to keep that child alive and healthy. child can go to a school that you want and get food. it means getting the basics taken care of so that you can really start to dream about participating. when you think about 3 billion people on the planet making less than three dollars a day, being ,ffectively cut out of society you are missing the opportunity of all those people to be our musicians and einstein's and professors. a i want to emphasize this

bit because i think this is a really pivotal moment in our understanding of poverty. what jaclyn is saying right now is that poor people are not liabilities. poor people are assets. they are assets that are under tapped. dead capital that we have to enlighten. this is part of your definition of human dignity. we treat people as -- toities, it's going to the extent that we treat them as assets, we are going to live in their capital -- live in their n their capital. >> can you join my team and become my communications director? that was so good. >> this is revolutionary. i'm sorry that you are eating lunch.

if you are, please stop. you got 3 million people living in slums in nairobi. you've got almost 2 million people -- there are no toilets that work. note are places known for having toilets. you are on legal land come even though you've been there for five generations. there is no infrastructure. we market says, no way are ever going to go into the slums to provide toilets. these people say need toilets so we're going to build latrines. what do you do with the waste from those latrines? defecate ondo is paper or in a plastic bag in her home and throw it. you walk through come it's

right out there for everyone to play in and see and get sick from. entrepreneursung from a at the problem market perspective, from a charity perspective. forget what perspective. from a solution perspective based on dignity. first we have a design issue. can we create a toilet that people want to go to? the brand it fresh life and there is a vanity station and there's a technical piece where the waste is separated. it get picked up everyday so it never smells. you pay five shillings if you're an adult or kid. brought back,then composted, turned into organic fertilizer. sold on to the market

. building a new market for human organic fertilizer is going to be a big -- >> sounds tricky. >> a tricky deal. but it's starting, slowly. toilets are now running. half of them are women. works, we now have a model for sanitation that actually provides jobs, creates better agriculture and brings human dignity. that's the way we have to start thinking is a world. >> amazing. not just people that are assets. >> don't go there. [laughter] that.nk you for saving me

brothers, arthur. that think like you do. before we turn it over to the audience, we have 20 minutes left. we have a lot of young people here. be you?d want to i will like you to give us some advice. i read your bio which is intimidating for a lot of people because you've done a lot of things. you had a really successful career. you can't just do that. it's not a career you immaculately conceived. takes a lot of time. to tell the going ordinary people who want to participate in this but don't have that kind of background? how can somebody get involved and create value on these lines?

>> let me answer that on two levels. for acumen, we have to build a lot of tools because people have come to us. the first thing we did is build a program for those who really want to put their lives into this work. we started at the global level and take 10 people a year, but are now getting 1200 applications for that. when we realized the demand was arted regionalt programs. we have regional programs running in india and east africa. this morning, i got the numbers in and we got another 2000 applications for those programs. we said to the young people who want to be part of it, why don't you start chapters? there are now 26 chapters around the world, including washington.

it's one of our best chapters. there are 500-700 people in the washington chapter. they want to get involved in this work one way or another. acumen is just one channel for it. other, toto know each network, to understand how this works. the chapter members said to us, can you give us the training you are giving to your fellows? so we started online courses a year ago in leadership and social metrics and moral imagination and 100,000 people are taking those courses this year. that's another way. go online and take these courses. do meet ups so you can start learning. from that, there are opportunities to think about building your own social enterprise. getting involved another social enterprises. -- in other social enterprises.

ways,eyond that, in some particularly with this generation, there is almost an over reverence for the entrepreneur. what we really need if we are whichto change the world, is long and hard and messy and ,equires more nuanced thinking is for people wherever they are to start changing the way they define their own success. whether you are working in a corporation or on wall street or in a nonprofit, to be asking yourself, is my language bringing more freedom, more dignity to other people? rather then, did i make more money today? when we start shifting in this way, we can start creating more unconventional partnerships to

make the change the world is crying for. >> did my actions today neglect or create more dependence or more dignity? these are the ways you can avoid one andfalls of way two. one quick matter of housekeeping. you talked about chapters for courses people can take and the fact that investing in capital is a great way to do. on your website, you can get all the information. donors and students can go there. what's the website? >> acumen.org. >> that's easy. is first?

my name is rachel mann. i was wondering if you could elaborate a little on how you work with the government when you begin work and what you do when you see these structures as a barrier. >> acumen itself doesn't start off by saying let's work with a particular government or not. hen one ofe more w our companies either hits the barrier or starts to partner with government for change. interestingly, the real innovation that i've started to see in the world around serving the poor is coming from corporations. i have had conversations with three different ceos of fortune 100 companies that have either

the technologies we were talking that are too small, too hard for them as a big entity to roll out and serve low income markets. yet, they are starting to ask themselves the question, if we can do this and we have a moral obligation to do it. will the world and see that we are better citizens? in that is a huge opportunity for a different kind of partnership. it's pushing both civil society to learn more about the corporate's and the corporate still understand what it means to work with resource constrained organizations. the best examples we would have our with unilever -- the way we learn is the way we do everything. we start with technical assistance were they bring their

senior leaders to work with our companies so that we get to know each other. really about building trust, building relationships and ensuring there is alignment. too often, people start with partnerships, but they are not honest about what they get out of the deal. at theon't get better language around that, we will get the same dysfunction we have in the past. >> right back here and then up to the front table. and the board chair of the d.c. acumen chapter. >> thank you so much. >> enqueue. one of the questions we get is has there been any successful exits?

besides the financial returns, what are the other characteristics of a great exit? >> thanks for that. million.ted about 80 we've brought 14 million back to acumen. 14 million we do not have to fund raise. that will be reinvested. the big exits everyone is waiting for is a tricky question in that we think internally about do you exit for the sake you stay withdo the company and continue to claim and build value so that when you finally exit, there is more financial resources coming back to acumen and you have something to show the world? there are three companies we are

looking at as potential exits. short-term exit is very much overrated. we for this to play out 10 years from beginning to end and you will see some real exits. is coming ine addition to exits, when i look at success, i start to think breakingse category innovations that would not have happened without this kind of investment. was tooars ago, solar expensive for a household to use. now that you were at 40 million proven models and a profitable company that is continuing to aow, we are also seeing platform on which you can build other lessons and other kinds of products.

the company has spawned other companies like a joint venture between the solar company and a kenya banking platform in . based on the insight that the poor want access -- one to make the realersion -- thing, you pay for kerosene if it everyday. the economists would say if you are paying four dollars a month solar and five dollars a month for kerosene, of solar.you want with mobile banking, you can pay five cents a day for your solar. why weu start to look at stay in, this kind of learning

is actually a public good. that's one of the reasons acumen continues to serve as a nonprofit because we are in action think tank combined to this pragmatic and mr. and leadership -- investor and leadership building. >> you gave an example of being really patient. that exit might be 10 years from now. how long is your strategic plan for acumen? is that 30 years into the future? >> we do have an idea. it goes back to the relationship and trust. 9/11, i was very clear with the board and with myself that we were there for 30 years. there were going to be hard times and there have been really hard times. if you are really focused on building models that are

economically sound, leaders that shifting thel be business community and are looking at a 20-30 year time horizon. when i look 20-30 years in the future, i see not only many funds, but a whole ecosystem of companies, leaders, ideas that are interacting for real change. one quick example that took 10 years is in pakistan. check this out because it's really cool. there is an ecosystem building somekistan where you have of our fellows that let google .nd apple to go back they're are working on building

alternative -- an alternative to youtube because the country shutdown youtube. building a vocational company to train low income workers. there is a regional fellow who he ist go to college, but making beautiful handcrafted shoes. he wants to be the zappos of pakistan. frankly, his website he did a lot of work and he needed a marketing strategy. you have an ecosystem of other young entrepreneurs were willing to help him. they did a kickstarter campaign -- i did not even know it was happening. was $15,000, which is a lot for these workers. they have raised $47,000 from people around the world. not only are you now creating a hero in the midst of what we see

in the news, isis and everything else, a hero inside the country. you are enabling a community to support the right values. to provide work for other people from a place that rewards what is good in us. i don't really care if acumen is a billion dollar fund. i care about an ecosystem of millions of people that are using, seeing investment as one tool. seeing leadership as the most important thing we need to develop an ourselves. to use investment and charity to build strong government and get rid of corruption. to build a world that sees support -- seeks support for all human beings. and work from there. emphasizeck point to is that jaclyn talked about a 30 year time horizon for these

particular projects. at least a 30 year time horizon. and she has something like at least a 30 year conveyor belt for talent. we just met somebody. this is a big deal for secession. 50 years from now, acumen is going to be here. the faceactually see of somebody stewarding these projects. well done. who is next? advisor at the u.s. department of state. have a question about the role of innovation and education in these low income communities. to essentially empower these individuals to become innovators and problem solvers have you for thesetive models communities? courses that are online to teach

them these innovation skills? offline. for those who don't have access to the internet. are now online tools being used by off-line communities. the jesuits talk about this idea of accompaniment. it's a really underrated you ethos and something we need to think about in building our companies. i have a quick example of young men who read my book and decided create a book club across kenya and that led to them deciding to build a tech conference that sponsor these local conferences and they now run 60 in east africa.

guy i first met them, one was making $30 a month selling eggs on the street. the average education with third grade. cheerleaders. is what they need is a gathering recognizesomeone to that there has to be some safety anet as well. you have the workshops and you desolate waste where if you pull your head too high, somebody's going to push you down. how do we build pockets for people so they not only are have aing, but they group around them that will help carry them through? as wes way too underrated look for quick results and technical boxes to check.

>> we have time for one more. you've been very patient. the back. from an investor perspective, you were talking about these young people -- say i'm starting to think about my retirement and i fully share the investment ideals and goals. would you recommend for a person acumen fory into retirement? 50% in acumen and 50% in more traditional investment? at india and the , when do youcation frame the problem as private

sector concern? girls -- it's a cost issue. thing for the books and uniforms. -- paying for the books and uniforms. the broader question here is, when do you frame the issue as a or charity one? >> the first question is, should we give you all our money? [laughter] is, i second question actually no longer do say this is a government question, this is a private sector question. you look at pakistan or india, 40% of the government schools

are go schools, nobody shows up. they're not reaching people who make one dollar a day. you see how desperate people are that they send their children there even though there is an person teaching them. can we use the market as a teaching device to understand how we can be more efficient, but can we roll out not out -- rule out our brains and hearts? child beo have every potential in them. how do we make sure that every child gets that education? if we are driven by that, that is our end, not that it is a private sector solution or a government responsibility baby,

then we will have a much healthier debate about those models that work. if we continue to start an ideology, we we are going to get where we are going, so that is how i would look at it. as you can see. she is subverting dominant using as about radical approach that mixes things with work for people who needed the most. please join me in showing our gratitude to the comparable gas -- to the incomparable guests. >> thank you. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by national captioning institute]

>> president obama is on the road this afternoon, traveling to indiana. he will talk about the economy. we expect he won't mention the latest jobless figures that show the unemployment rate dropping to a six-year low, with nearly 250,000 jobs gained in september. live coverage at about 3:10 eastern. 2014 coverage coming tomorrow. the montana u.s. house debate. live at 8:00 p.m. eastern. >> tonight at 10:00, a

conversation with john paul stevens. saturday night at nine :00 eastern, -- at 9:00 eastern, bill gates. sunday, the director of the national museum of african art. c-span2,ht on 8:00 on at about war and the constitution. heather cox richardson. and sunday, joan biskupic. historians and, authors talk about world war i 100 years later. saturday, former fbi agents on bomberng the uniform

suspect. find your schedule at www.c-span.org. call us and let us know what you think about. you can send us a tweet at #comments. cities tour takes american history tv on the road tv" on the road. >> my book is called "the beast in the garden," because it is a book about a large animal that in ancient times or in american history we could have called it a beast, the mountain lion, which is a party and, of boulder, colorado. boulder is a natural place, but in many places it has been

altered by human kind, and we knew get a wild animal coming into this artificial landscape them you can cause changes in the behavior of that animal. a mountain lion favored food is venison. they eat about one deer a week. live in the city, the city attracts the deer, so we had a deer herd living in downtown boulder. when the lines move back in the area, they discovered there were deer in town. so the deer lured the alliance into town. then the lions figured they could eat dogs and cats. the lions were learning that this is where they will find food. there is food up there, too, but there's lots to eat in town. >> chautauqua is a retreat in a enrichment,ace for and enlightenment,

entertainment, and coming together. the people who were intent to the audience of the chautauqua were what we would call the middle class. the programs had most of the anutauquas were similar, a accommodation of speakers of the day and friday of highbrow and lowbrow entertainment, offer, opera,al music, -- classical music. >> watch arrogance from older on saturday at noon and and sunday c-span.p.m. on now a debate now between two of the candidates for idaho's next governor. last wednesday, a.j. balukoff, and his challenger, libertarian john bujak, took to the stage for a second debate in twin falls, idaho. this race is listed as solid republican.

c.j. "butch" otter declined to take part. this is about one hour. >> good evening from the auditorium of canyon ridge high school in twin falls. i am autumn phillips, and welcome to the second debate of the 2014 idaho general election season. tonight we will hear from two candidates for idaho governor. we did invite governor otter to this debate. he turned us down, but we decided that democracy is about more than the incumbent. so i am looking forward to a good discussion. please join me in welcoming them now. to my right is libertarian candidate john bujak. [applause] to my left is democratic candidate a.j. balukoff.

[applause] so we will begin the debate tonight with three-minute opening remarks. a.j. won the coin toss tonight, and he chose to let john bujak begin opening remarks. then a.j. will take the opening question. >> i would like to thank the times news and kmbt for sponsoring this event. i name is john bujak. i am a libertarian candidate for governor. i am 45 years old. i am married, have four children. i live in eagle, idaho. i grew up in the central idaho mountains. i went to the college of idaho in caldwell. i served in the u.s. navy. after my time in the navy, i came back to idaho and went to law school.

during my time after law school, i worked as a deputy prosecuting attorney, then as a deputy attorney general, and then i had my own law firm where i practiced for 10 years. after than, i decided to enter politics and ran on the republican ticket, and won the seat as the elected county prosecutor in canyon county, idaho. i am running for governor because it is time that the good old boy network get rounded out of boise. i've heard the good old boys called a lot of things, everything from the boise mafia to otter's crew. they are causing a lot of problems in idaho. in addition to the corruption and the cronyism that exists within otter's crew and the

boise mafia, governor otter -- let me stop for a minute because i do not want to seem disrespectful. there was a time when i really respected him and his positions, and i even voted for the man. but i cannot support him anymore because he has decided to implement democratic policies in idaho. idaho is the only republican state that adopted the health care exchange under obamacare. if he stays in office, medicaid expansion is around the corner, and that puts idaho in a precarious situation. what we need is conservative leadership in idaho. i was elected to serve as prosecutor on the republican ticket, and i understand what conservative government is about. i understand the value of small government that respects the constitutional rights of the people and allows the free market to determine economic destiny. that is what idaho needs. during the course of the debate, i look forward to proving to you that i am the right conservative leader for the job, proving that

a third-party candidate can win the election for governor this time around. thank you. >> thank you. [applause] all right, you have three minutes. >> [inaudible] it is an honor to be here. i would like to thank kmbt. i would like to thank john bujak for participating. i wish governor otter cared enough to be here to explain his poor record on education and jobs. we can understand why he does not want to be here. he would have to explain why idaho is winning the race to the bottom.

we are near the bottom in the rate our graduates are going to college. 95 school districts have raised their own taxes because the state has shirked its constitutional responsibility to support public education. right here in twin falls, you had to raise your taxes to support your children's education. 40 school districts have cut back to a four-day school week. we are behind every state except one, mississippi. that is not acceptable. it is the result of a career

politician putting the demands of special interests ahead of people. i am not a career politician. i am a businessman. i built a successful cpa firm, and today i am part owner of the centurylink arena and the idaho hockey team. i also served on many nonprofit boards of directors, helping to turn around troubled businesses. in business, i learned that the best redactor of future behavior is past behavior. if we do not change, without a change in leadership, we will continue our spiral to the bottom. the stakes are high. we cannot afford four more years of moving in the wrong direction. idaho can do better, but it will take new leadership at the top. that is why i am running for governor. >> thank you. [applause]

this first question appears to be in your wheelhouse. last night we hosted a debate between the two candidates for superintendent of public instruction, and a major focus was education funding. in last year's proposed budget, governor otter recommended $54.7 million to begin funding the 20 recommendations. the task force requested $350 million. otter says he would fund over five years. if you were elected governor, would you continue to approach funding, and what other things would you do to restore funding for education in idaho? >> we would have to take a look at governor otter's record with education. he does not have a good history of listening to the people. he signed on with laws in the

face of overwhelming opposition. when the laws were repealed, he formed a task force that came up with 20 good recommendations on improving public education. but he has disengaged with that process. he has not attended one task force meeting, and then he talks about implementing those recommendations over five years. his budget last year recommended $100 million for rainy day funds and unspecified tax relief. that shows me that education is not his top priority. when i am governor, i am going to listen to teachers and principals, parents, taxpayers, and education will be the top priority. we need to stop the waste going on in government right now, the pending lawsuits that should never have happened in the first place, having to fund

investigations of wrongdoing at the prison. we need to stop that waste. then we need to change our priorities. i would make education a top priority, more of a priority than a rainy day fund and more of a priority than tax relief. that is how i would run things differently. >> thank you. you have one minute rebuttal. >> this education issue is very complex because educating our children is one of our most important duties and something government should take seriously. i have heard a lot of people talk about we need to throw more money at the problem. the answer is education requires more funding. that may be true, but one thing we need to look at before we start throwing more funding at education is how those education dollars are being spent now. when i talk to teachers around the state, their primary complaint -- one, they do not have enough training on how to implement common core, and they

believe common core doesn't make sense. number two, not enough money makes it to the classroom. we need to take a hard look at the education budget and make sure that dollars get to the classroom as quickly and efficiently as possible. >> a one-minute response. >> i would like to clarify. besides giving that stable and reliable funding, it is important how we spend the money. i do not know of any business that tries to hire the best employees by paying them the lowest dollars. idaho teachers are paid the lowest salary in the entire northwest, if not the entire country. it is going to be very difficult to retain good teachers if we pay them lower than anyplace else. as i have traveled around the state visiting school districts and superintendents, they talk about how difficult it is to retain teachers.

we lose them to wyoming, to montana, to oregon, to washington, and even to utah. i agree with john that it is important how we spend the money, but you have to have adequate funding. >> thank you. this one goes to you. you both have reputations as being urban guys. if you were elected, what would you do to inform yourselves about the issues facing agriculture in the magic valley? >> i live in eagle, and professionally i have worked in treasure valley for years. but i have lived in mccall, and i will not sell you on the fact that i am an agricultural and rural guy. i have changed pipe in mccall. i worked at a feed company, so i

know a little bit about the day to day operations, but i am not an expert. the one thing i am particularly worried about, and it goes hand-in-hand with the problem we have with the federal government controlling too much of idaho's lands, we have to protect our water rights. that is not given enough attention, and it has to be important when you think about the continuing viability in agriculture. we would not have the snake river education going on if that was not an important issue, and idaho's water rights is certainly something i would keep on the forefront of my mind as governor when i think about agriculture. the other thing that is important is that the government act efficiently and quickly when our folks in agriculture, our farmers need help. i have seen in the past where governor otter's administration has not been quick enough in declaring states of emergency for farmers, and they have lost

a lot of the critical help, idaho farmers here in the state. i would keep my eye on that ball when i serve as your governor. >> one minute. >> i have not been waiting for the election to inform myself on agricultural issues. i have been visiting people in the agricultural industry right now -- farmers and ranchers. i visited the association leaders to inform myself of the issues facing agriculture around the state and particularly in the magic valley. it seems like in the magic valley the number one issue is water. there has been good progress made with the snake river adjudication, the issue of what happens in low-water years. a big issue that is very important is the waters of the u.s., where they are talking

about redefining and maybe even irrigation canals, giving authority to the federal government and the epa over that. we need to be very aware of that and take a proactive approach on the water issues in our state. >> do you want to take another minute? >> no, i think i am ready. >> all right, the next question if we want to keep the conversation going, it is about water. it is the most important thing, one of them, in the magic valley. the governor's budget, he set aside $15 million for aquifer research projects. what do to shore up the future of magic valley's water? we have to be concerned by the future of the water. by definition, you will have water shortages because we live at the edge of a desert. we need to get the city together with the service users and talk

about a good approach to conserving water, to recharging, and to whether or not we expand the capacity of the dam in high water years to recharge the aquifer. we need to be proactive again about approaching the water issues that we know we are going to have because we live on the edge of a desert. >> all right, one minute. >> water issues are complex. we have your watermasters here in the magic valley that are experts on those issues. i need to defer to those experts here in the magic valley, people who are informed on water issues and how the water is being used. i'm also particularly concerned about preserving idaho's water

rights because the federal government is stepping in, wanting to control the land, wanting to stake a greater claim on idaho water and idaho's resources. as governor, i would make sure that they do not take any additional control over idaho's waters. >> do you want to take another minute? >> no, pass. >> all right. i will give you a little background -- not that you need it -- but the idaho constitutional defense fund was created in 1995 to defend the state's legal rights against the government. last year, the idaho legislature set aside $1 million for the fund. the governor and attorney general said that money would not be used to defend idaho's ban on same-sex marriage, even though that is the biggest constitutional challenge the state faces right now. as governor, you would be part of the council that oversees the

fund. how should the fund be used? would you vote to use it to defend idaho's same-sex marriage ban? >> with the same-sex marriage ban, i think regardless of what an individual's beliefs are about whether we should have same-sex marriage in idaho, the fight is not one that idaho can currently win. i think that that money that was used to fight the lawsuit is money thrown down the drain. even though the republican governors in neighboring states like nevada saw the wisdom in not pursuing that litigation any further, i certainly would not have earmarked that money for litigation on gay marriage. i think the writing is on the wall, and there are just some things idaho cannot afford to do in these hard economic times. >> all right. >> idaho's ban was found to violate the united states constitution. again, however people feel personally about same-sex marriage, we also believe in honoring, obeying, and

sustaining the law. there's been, i think, 18 judges around the united states that have found it pretty similar to what judge dale found here in idaho. others states are fighting that and appealing with the supreme court. we are a small state with limited funds, and that money would be better used to support higher priorities like education or to build our economy. i think we should wait and let the supreme court weigh in on that issue. >> you have one minute. >> i have nothing else to add. >> this one is for you. in idaho these days, another big power of the governor is as leader of the state's republican party. as a democrat or a libertarian, you would not wield that influence, which, frankly, is substantial. where else would you seek influence?

>> well, keep in mind that when we are elected, we represent all of the people in idaho, and i think the paradigm we have used here, if you are in the majority, you are on offense, and if you are in the minority, you are on defense, and the offense tries to score, that's the wrong model. the more appropriate metaphor is that of an orchestra. that during the election, we all compete for seats in the orchestra, but once the election is over and we have our seats, we should be working together to create beautiful music. that's the way i worked in business and on the school board and in other nonprofit organizations, bringing people together. party should be a secondary concern. we should work together as representatives of the people of idaho and work toward solving problems as opposed to

furthering or blocking a partisan agenda. >> this question illustrates the problem with the two-party system. no matter how much people might have good intentions once they are elected in office, when you have republicans versus democrats, they cannot work together and will oppose one another because their agenda is set not just here locally but on a national level. that's the advantage of having someone like me, a libertarian, in office. i don't have any dog in that fight. my goal is to represent the people in the state of idaho in bringing conservative values back to state house. so i will be able to work with whoever is in the legislature, whether it be a democrat or a republican because one thing is universal here in idaho -- we believe in conservative values. with that one guiding principle, we can move idaho in a positive direction and take us out of

this quagmire we have been in since governor otter's liberal agenda. >> in my 17 years on the school board, i have been down to the legislature every year to testify on bills that affect education, so i have worked with both democrats and republicans on school bills. i have relationships with a number of those legislators already, and i continue to maintain those relationships during this campaign. i can work with republicans, and i can work with democrats, and i can even work with libertarians. i'm pragmatic. we are looking at what we need to do for the state of idaho, what do we need to have to make people's lives better and solve problems, and if we make that our priority, we will be successful, and we will bring people together. >> all right. this one goes to you. again, the governor's budget

proposes $2 million to manage idaho's roles. in the final budget, $400 million was allocated for the creation of the wolf control board. as governor, how great with the priority be on wolf control in your budget, and what approach should idaho be taking towards management of its wolf population? >> the wolf problem needs to be aggressively addressed, but i do not think you need to throw all this money at it in order to address it. we have one of the greatest resources here in idaho that we can utilize in a cost-effective way to deal with the wolf problem, and that is idaho hunters. i do not see any reason why we cannot have controlled hunts. some of the hunters in idaho are some of the best hunters in the united states, probably in the world. give me some good idaho hunters, a controlled hunt, and idaho fish and game, and i would not need $400,000 of taxpayer money to control the wolf problem in idaho.

>> i agree. we do not need to spend $2 million to eradicate wolves. if we are not careful, they will be back on the federal protected list again, just like happened in wyoming recently. fish and game manages and controls other predators -- bears, mountain lions, coyotes. they are perfectly capable of managing wolves. they have wildlife biologists, managers that can adequately manage the wolves in consultation with farmers and ranchers. i know there are ways to allow farmers and ranchers to protect their livestock without exterminating the wolves, so my approach would be to engage fish and game and the cattlemen and those associations to get together and develop a good wolf management plan for our state.

>> do you want to say anything more? you have a minute. >> no, i think we can move on. >> we are getting through some pretty big topics pretty quickly. i am going to read you a bit of a letter that governor otter sent in july when hundreds of children were crossing the border illegally. he sent this letter to the federal government saying he wanted to "immediately eliminate the chance of the federal government using idaho as a destination or staging area for the influx of unaccompanied and illegal immigrants entering the united states through our southern border." he wrote that "it should be understood that the state of idaho will not be actively involved in addressing the humanitarian crisis the federal government has created." as governor -- here's the question -- >> ok. >> as governor, you would not have direct influence over immigration policy, but as otter showed with his letter, you could set the tone.

immigration reform is a huge issue in idaho, so what would your message be to the state and federal government and to our congressional delegation? >> first of all, governor otter set the wrong tone. immigration is very important to our state, is very important to the agricultural industry here, especially the dairy industry in the magic valley. we need to set the right tone that we need sensible immigration reform that allow guest workers to come here and fill the jobs that need to be done in the agricultural industry and in some other industries. that is done by congress, but the governor can urge our delegation and congress to work on it, to stop ignoring the problem, stop kicking the can down the road, and do some meaningful immigration reform that would allow guest workers

to come here, and the bill the senate proposed had some pretty good provisions in it to allow people who are here who are undocumented aliens to come forward and submit themselves to a criminal background check, and if they pass that, they would have a clean background that they could then have a five-year work permit. they would also agree to pay any back taxes that they for the time they were here and working. those kinds of sensible solutions to immigration reform would he a great help to the farmers and ranchers of idaho and to the magic valley, and i think we need to encourage intelligent solutions and not grandstand with letters like what governor otter sent. >> all right, you want to take a minute? >> governor otter's letter for me was just a bunch of political grandstanding. it was inappropriate to use these children who were dumped

on the united states' doorsteps as political fodder. that said, there has to be a strong stance taken on the immigration issue. i do not know why -- even though the message he sent repeatedly back to washington, d.c. -- they are unable and willing to secure our borders and unable and unwilling to pass any kind of immigration policy that makes any sense. there needs to be a guest worker program. there's no doubt that people who come here from mexico to work add to the viability of idaho's economy, no doubt about it, but they have to come here legally, and they should not be rewarded for coming here illegally. i would also encourage local governments to cooperate with the federal law enforcement. i do not think we need to become an arm of the federal government, but i do think that when people come within the purview of the criminal justice

system, that fingerprints ought to be checked -- and they are in some counties now -- and that people who are here illegally committing crimes need to be removed. >> you can have another minute if you want. >> no. >> all right. here's another question for you. you knew this was coming. there's a movement for idaho to take over management of federal public lands. is that an idea you support? what would it look like? if you do not support the idea, what can idaho do to support the funding of public schools? >> i support idaho taking back control of its lands. there's two approaches, and as a lawyer, i recognize this. two approaches you can use -- a judicial approach going through the courts, and a political approach where you approach congress about getting control of our lands back. because of the history of lands in idaho over the years, it's going to be a difficult journey, but it's not an impossible one. i think that idaho's governor needs to stand firm and lead the way on reclaiming those lands. i personally would prefer -- and i think it would be more

successful and more efficient -- to go the political and congressional route, and as governor, i would work with the delegation in d.c. to help make that happen. >> all right. one minute. >> idaho cannot financially afford to own those federal lands. right now, we own them in partnership with the rest of the citizens of the united states, and they help pay for the management and the fire protection. if we had owned the lands by ourselves, the beaver creek fire last year would have bankrupted the state. we cannot financially afford them. we also cannot legally take them. in the act that admitted idaho to the union, we agreed not to ask for the federal lands. i would prefer an approach that includes local communities to have a voice in the way lands are managed. we work with the federal

managers, the forest service that currently manages those federal lands, there's a good model with the clearwater basin collaborative of getting diverse interests together to come to an agreement how lands are managed. i do not think any of us want our lands locked up so we are cut out of them. >> i don't support becoming the federal government's arm here managing land in idaho. if we take back the land in a responsible way, maybe a county at a time, and we use the land we take back and realize the profit potential from the natural resources that are there, then we can manage the property in a way that you do not end up with outrageous forest fires, and we can generate a boom to the economy that would allow us to be able as a state to afford to manage those lands. that's the key -- take it back a piece at a time, take it back responsibly. if we do not, we will see places

like been a county turn into the silver valley where they cannot mine anymore, and they approach those logging jobs as men among wage service jobs. we need access to the resources in those lands. >> all right. you might not think this is political, but i see panic in people's eyes when i have asked this question. there's been a lot of talk over the years about reforming idaho's tax code. what exemptions would you support adding or eliminating and what taxes would you like to see cut or increased? >> i'm very much in favor of a comprehensive evaluation of our entire tax code. that has been a different approach than what governor otter has taken. he has allowed special interests to dictate exemptions that benefit certain industries or certain companies. over the years, that has gotten our tax code out of balance and made it more inefficient. when we first moved here, people used to talk about the stability

of the three-legged stool of income tax, sales tax, and property tax, where the strength of one kind offset the problems and weaknesses of another. our tax code has been fiddled with so much over the years that we are out of balance. we need to take a good look at that to make sure that our tax code is fair across all sectors of the economy, make sure it uses technology to keep the administrative burden to a minimum, and it collects the right amount of tax -- not too much and not too little. that can be accomplished, and as we look at and evaluate not just the exemptions, but the whole way we fund the different responsibilities of our government and decide whether it is appropriate to fund education with sales tax or more appropriate to do some of that funding with property tax in a more stable and predictable way

than we currently do it today. with that, grocery credit is another good example where we are carrying over a policy or a procedure that is from the 1960's. with barcodes, we could exempt groceries and not have to file a grocery tax credit. >> all right, do you want to respond? >> yes. there are too many taxes in idaho to begin with. what i would support is getting rid of all tax exemptions. tax exemptions are just another way that the government manipulates the free market. i think taxes need to be low, fair across the board, and predictable, and the way you get there is to impose a flat tax. that way everybody knows what they have to pay, and everybody pays their fair share. to have these tax exemptions in place the way they are currently in place allows the burden to be

shifted, in most cases from big business who are given incentives to come here from the state providing minimum wage jobs a lot of the time, and pushing that word and on to the small tax owners. i would get rid of all exemptions. flat tax is the way to go. i would like to see the sales taxes disappear in fact. >> i will point out one example of how tax has shifted from businesses to people. it helps businesses, but it shifted that tax to homeowners. you can look at the school district where every year, the total tax we have levied and collected has decreased with the exception of the year that we passed the supplemental levy with 71% of the vote. every other year, the total taxes decrease. yet the tax on a home has gone up, and that's because governor otter and the legislature exempted business property and shifted the burden to

homeowners. >> all right. this is kind of along the same vein. some people would argue that large companies are attracted to invest and grow in idaho because of our low wages. should idaho increase its minimum wage? >> yeah, i saw some statistics recently that idaho's minimum wage is so far below the livable wage that for a family without any kids it was half of what you need to live in idaho. even so, i do not think the answer to the problem is mandating an increase in the minimum wage. rather, we have to strengthen the economy and strengthen businesses who have loyalty to employees, and those of the small businesses, the lifeblood of idaho's economy. we need to stop giving exceptions and benefits to the big businesses who come here. they do not see employees as anything other than a commodity. they are not generally loyal to employees.

small businesses on the other hand are connected with communities and have a vested interest in doing the right thing by the people who live in those communities. they tend to pay high wages because they want to pay a livable wage and want people to stay in the businesses in the communities. again, we need to change the structure in idaho, in particular, the tax structure so that small businesses get the same benefits as big businesses, and as the free market has been allowed to develop, you will see as the economy increases, wages will increase along with it. >> as i have traveled along the state, i have asked small business owners how raising the minimum wage would affect their business. i first asked the question if the minimal wage were raised to $10 an hour, how that would affect the business, and they said it would not, they already pay their people $10 an hour. i asked the same question to a

restaurant owner in boise, and he gave me the same answer. he said he pays kitchens help $10 an hour as a starting salary. if there is memo wage to $10 an hour it would not affect his business. the real answer -- i believe we should raise the minimum wage, but the real answer is educating people so they are qualified for more than a minimum wage job. if we do that and concentrate on helping those businesses already in the state pay more than a minimum wage, that will help the entire economy and will help the workers that are in those businesses. >> from my experience traveling around the state, there may be some businesses that have been established long enough to pay those higher wages, but there are other small businesses struggling to get by, and when i ask them the same question, the answer i got from them was you raise the minimum wage and make them pay more at this stage of

the game, and i'm going to go out of business. we do not want to drive small businesses out of business here in idaho. >> all right. this goes to you. how do you plan to work with the legislature to address the continued backlog of transportation projects to ensure safe and efficient roadways in idaho, and how should this project be funded? >> this is another example where governor otter has not shown leadership. he tried to propose funding to take care or at least make a dent in the roads and bridges, and the legislature resisted, and he did not go in there and do what he needed to to get people on board. i would bring people together to talk about the deferred maintenance on our roads and bridges. that is costing our state a lot of money because when a bridge gets past its useful life, they do not block the bridge, and it's not going to collapse and cause problems.

they put weights limits on it, and that causes trucks to take products to market or bring products to market to your community to take a longer route. it increases the cost of doing business. and that is passed on to the consumers that buy those products. we need to spend the money to keep our bridges in good repair, to keep our roads in good repair, and that will help and be a good thing for business. when i ask people about roads and bridges, most people -- you know, the county commissioners are very concerned about that, and they wonder where they will get the money to fund roads and bridges. we have not raised the gas tax since 1996, i believe. almost 20 years. if that had been indexed to inflation, the gas tax would be about 37 cents a gallon today. we also need to look at things like the vehicle fees. they are very low in idaho, and

maybe those need to increase, but we do need to find a way to increase the funding for maintenance on our roads and bridges. >> all right. >> i think maintenance to the roads and bridges are important, but i do not think the answer, as governor otter suggested, is raising the gas tax, raising fees. that is not the way to do it. there's a lot of fat in the budget, and i will give you an example. the budget basically has three huge components. education, which is about 65%, medical care, which is 20%, and then corrections, which is about 10%. we spend entirely too much time locking up nonviolent offenders. last time i looked at the data, it was about $42,000 we spend on

warehousing somebody in prison over the course of the year. that's money that could be used other places in the budget. i would take a look at the budget, reshuffle where money is being spent, ask the legislature to look at passing some sentencing guidelines to give judges some direction about which people need to be incarcerated and which people do not, start saving money where we can, and putting that money to better use. >> ok. all right, this is not specifically about the magic valley, but it affects the whole state. idaho has a developing natural gas play. new regulations are being drafted, and we should see those or more of those in the next legislative session. as governor, you have the power to veto or sign any legislation that comes forward. what environmental or bonding regulations would you like to see come across your desk if you were elected governor? >> i would rely on the

scientists and the people in that industry to give me the advice on what is the safest and best way is to make use of the natural resources that occur in our state. it's not only the magic valley, but it's all over my part of the state in the western part of canyon county. there is potential for natural gas, and people have talked about drilling those wells. if the resources are there and available for our use, if we can do that in a safe and environmentally friendly way, then we ought to take advantage of those resources. but we need to rely on good, sound science in what we are doing so we are careful not to damage the environment and not to contaminate groundwater, for example. so i would rely on our scientists and the experts in the field to advise me on how to approach those issues.

>> when you say in the field, do you mean from the industry itself? >> yes, as well as the people from environmental groups that may have an opposing viewpoint. but we need to hear people from all sides who have opinions and are knowledgeable about the issues involved in that. >> all right. >> i would be cautious about trusting data from people in the industry. first of all, it's important that idaho start realizing its potential as an energy exporter. when you look at states doing well, pulling out of this last recession, states like texas, north dakota, they are doing well because they are energy exporters, and idaho needs to join those ranks, and that's why it's important we get control of all the lands in our state. when it comes to being responsible about extracting those resources, we have to be careful because idaho has a lot of natural beauty, and we need to protect the environment as well. for example, i would support

bonding so if there is any damage done to the environment, there would be adequate funding available to clean that up. i would also support studies into the techniques people are using in order to harvest the resources here. for example, i have a big question mark in my mind about whether fracking makes sense. i have seen data that suggests that's the long way to extract natural gas, but we need to get informed, make sure the environment is protected, but still protect our ability to be an energy exporter. >> your response? >> no. >> all right. this goes to you. what role do you think the governor should play an economic development? how would you assist existing businesses and expansion, and while you're at it, what kind of businesses would you target for idaho? >> ok, first of all, i don't think it's the job of government to improve business. i think it's the job of government to set a low

regulatory scheme, low tax scheme, and then get out of the way and let the free market take care of itself. the only thing government needs to do is process whatever it needs to do in order to be an administrator. if there are permits that need to be issued, government needs to do that effectively and efficiently, but the government should not be in the business of trying to recruit companyies to come here, should not be in the business of trying to promote one industry over another. that's the job of the free market, the job of private industry, not the role of the government. >> you know, governor otter's approach has the wrong focus. they've been looking to bring big businesses and hopefully get good jobs.

we are competing, with all the other states, and our competition is to offer low taxes or tax incentives. we have over 40,000 small businesses in our state. we need to find ways to help them thrive and grow. if 10% of those businesses would add one employee, that's 4000 new jobs over the state. i was in jerome a few weeks ago, speaking with the mayor, and he said the cheese factory wants to expand, but they cannot because jerome's water treatment facility is at capacity. the state has helped find the grants to help that facility expand the water treatment facility and let the cheese factories expand. that's the kind of thing the government can help do. >> again, government's role is not to help one business compete against another. government should only be involved in keeping regulation low, keeping taxes low and fair across the board, keeping taxes

predictable, and getting out of the way of letting the free market do its job. >> one of the main powers of idaho governor is his ability to make appointments, which can really drive the agenda of your administration. how would you go about selecting people for the commissions? >> i think the good model is what they use for appointing judges where they have some lawyers get together and review the applications for those positions and then make those recommendations to the governor, and i think in the case of judges, they recommend three people. i think it is important to consult with the people in that particular industry or business so that we get the right kind of expertise we need. the people i appoint will be people of integrity, of competence that know their industry and know their business, and they are fair and

not there to promote a partisan agenda, but to promote and make sure that the state of idaho is being all that we can be. >> i think it's important that the people who are appointed to serve in government are not your best friends. they are not going to be yes-men. if you choose the sites of people, you end up in the governor's situation where he has friends that get involved in scandals and he has to look the other way and avoid the problem. that's what happened over this internet contract because the federal government no longer pays because the contract was made illegally by the governor's best friend. i would look at people interested in the job, have them apply, and choose them based on their experience and integrity and their loyalty to my vision, which is giving idaho back to the people. >> all right.

i'm going to call this the last question. it will be a little open-ended, but it's really -- it's about money, but it's about a philosophy as well. what should idaho's relationship be with the federal government? >> i think if i picked one word to describe idaho's relationship with the federal government it would be partnership, partnership the between two equal entities. idaho to needs to recognize and assert its sovereignty. it is not the servant of the federal government. so i would look to act in partnership with the federal government, and when you act in partnership, good things can happen. we can work with congress to get back control of our lands. we can work with our delegation to put together an immigration policy that makes sense for idaho. we can work with the federal government on funding issues so that we do not become dependent on federal dollars, but can take advantage of federal dollars in

a way that makes sense for idaho people and idaho economy. the idaho state and the federal government ought to act in partnership. >> i believe the best decisions are made closest to home, but some decisions the federal government has taken on itself, and we need to recognize that and work within that framework. i think the partnership that mr. bujak describes is a good way to look at that, that we work together as partners, but recognize where idaho has its proper role and where the federal government has its proper role. i'm not in favor of taking over the ownership of federal lands, but i am in favor of having a voice in how that gets managed. i think we should also work with

our congressional delegation to help them, encourage them to do what they can to pass the kinds of laws that would be a great benefit for the state of idaho. >> i know i said this was the last question, but this partnership with the federal government, does it involve medicaid expansion? >> want me to take the first shot? i think it should. i think we should expand medicaid coverage. we have somewhere in excess of 70,000 idahoans who are not currently insured, and they show up at the emergency room's when they have medical problems. you and i pay for their costs because they can't. each county has an indigent care fund, and the hospital bill exceeds $11,000, the state has a catastrophic fund. between the county and state, we are spending somewhere between

$80 million and $90 million a year to care for uninsured people. the federal government would pick up that cost and free up $80 million to $90 million that we could use for higher priorities here in the state. i see taking those medicaid payments as not much different than taking agricultural subsidies, funding the inl or funding the air force base. >> medicaid expansion is wrong for idaho. one thing people do not recognize is if you expand medicare, you are putting an additional burden on a primary care model that already cannot handle the medicaid patients that are out there currently. they also forget that our federal government is going to fund under medicaid expansion