so if we feel so threatened, as we should be, by isis and the terrorists, and particularly after this unbelievable beheading of two americans, and people from other countries, and our goal is to defeat them, degrade and defeat them, as the president said, then you can't start that by saying we're going to eliminate any possibility of ever using ground troops. none of us want to go back into anything like the iraq war again. but it may come. there may come a time to protect our own security when we're going to have to put a limited number of special operation forces on the ground there to defeat isis. and i don't think you ever want to tell your enemy what you're not going to do. you want your enemy to be frightened about what you're going to do, particularly if, as we are, you're the strongest country in the world. >> may i add something? >> sure. >> joe and i have a lot in common, one issue in particular. we know for a fact that there are over 300 american citizens who have left america and are fighting alongside isis.

by all reports, some of them have come back, upwards of 100. they are not here, folks, to buy a house with a white picket fence. they're here to hurt and kill us and change our way of life. joe and i had the foresight a couple years ago to file a bill that would restrict their -- strip their citizenship, not allow them to hide behind the united states, the rights guaranteed by our constitution, not use that passport freely to come back and north on a whim. we should keep them there, with their new friends. and let them stay there. >> right. [applause] >> unfortunately, it was filed again in this last session. before they went on their second vacation, two things. they did not close the border and deal with the very serious

border threats and they did not also take up that very important bill, as uk has done, as france has done and other countries are doing, because they recognize, hey, let's keep them there. let's not let them hide. and we're not saying, oh, we think -- these people are on facebook, twitter, youtube. i'm here fighting with my new friends and by the way, i'm going to come back and kill you. that's are the people we're talking about. when you talk about the beheadings, it is personal. we had one of our own in new hampshire beheaded. we had another one who went to high school there. it is personal. all the rhetoric in the world, with joe biden saying we're going to go to the gates of hell to get them, with all due respect, the gates of hell have already shown its face in new hampshire. we want action. and there's a lack of coherent responsible action. and that's what -- that's the problem. >> part of this is political. we'll get to that probably later. >> yes.

>> but scot -- scott and i are of a similar mind, which is if you agree with somebody, a colleague in the senate on something, you gotta be really irresponsible or dumb not to work with that person just because they happen to be from the other party. and this was one that i was proud to work with, with scott on. [applause] >> let me just add one other thing. if it wasn't for this guy right here, as you know i was the most bipartisan senator, 50/50. i worked with both sides, 50/50. if it wasn't for joe, the insider trading deal never would have passed. it was my idea. joe and susan collins brought it up. we put that through this record time. >> you did. >> and unfortunately, joe, when we left, they weakened it. >> they did. i believed in it so much that i began to claim it was my idea. >> i thought it was my idea. [laughter] >> so you can share probably. >> it was his idea. >> let's get back to

immigration. you were talking about the need to try and close the borders. i assume that's not just kind of the lone wolf terrorists but there was also concern about children coming across the border from central america. and you both, i understand, have been pretty involved in trying to tighten up our immigration laws. >> well, of course. we need to secure the border once and for all. i know it's been going on with other presidents. i'm not going to say it's his fault. it's everybody's fault. but bottom line, we need to close the border, because right now, the president expanding the definition of refugee, allowing mostly young children and others to come through the border and saying, just get your kids here and everybody, come on in, it's okay, it sends a very bad message. we need to secure those children, treat them compassionately and return them home to their home country, because we already have mechanisms in place, through the embassies, to deal with these important issues, number 1. number 2, i voted on two separate occasions to secure the boater.

i believe you did as well. i also voted to send troops to the border to address the concerns. that being said, i know there are other issues affecting immigration. but until we get to the core problem, which is once and for all, truly sending the message, cutting off the border, cutting off the incentives and the green light neon sign, we're going to continue to revisit this over and over again, and in relation to what's happening to -- it has a relation to what's happening with isis and potential criminal and other elements coming through that border. we have learned there are potentials already here, through the administration. something that keeps me and others up at night. and i want to have an opportunity to go fix it. >> so, look, we're a nation of immigrants, except for the

native americans. our ancestors came here from someone else. it's the strength of our country. it continues to be the strength of the country in many ways. but there's an immigration law. and people who come here illegally violate that law. so the whole system needs to be reformed. but as part of it, we've got to better secure the border. and then we've got to reform the laws. for instance, frankly, we've got to make it a little easier for people to come in legally who are people who have the capabilities to be here. one of the things that's got to be part of an immigration reform bill is that anybody from a foreign country who gets a graduate degree here in science, engineering, math, ought to get a green card automatically. let them stay here, because they're going to create wealth in our country. basically -- if the two of us were congress, this is my

fantasy. we could work out a lot of these problems. >> we did. >> but if you've got most members of congress in a private room, talking about how do you solve this, most of them would agree. it has to start with a promise to do everything to secure the border. then you've got to deal with the 10 or 11 million illegal immigrants and figure out a way that they come out of the shadows. they pay any taxes they owe. they have to learn english. they have to make clear they don't have a criminal record. and they pay a fine. then you put them on a path to get a green card. then you open up the system to people of talent and capability from other parts of the world. this can happen if people are willing to compromise. john boehner, the speaker of the house said a while ago that he really wants to do immigration reform. i think he's got something, and i like this. the president is frustrated and the president says he's going to do something by executive action after the election. boehner said, if you do that, mr. president, all deals are off. so i hope the president, particularly if it turns out the

republicans control both houses of congress after the election, i hope the president invites the speaker, the majority leader in and sits down and says, okay, let's act like grown-ups. let's negotiate a compromise and reform our immigration laws. [applause] >> i take it a little further, i think, than anyone who goes to one of our colleges should have the ability to get a diploma and have the ability to stay here and work and continue on with their education. if we have a need for seasonal workers, absolutely, no problem. the irish and others are very low. we need to modernize those quotas. what's the problem? is it computers, approving authorities? let's go. let's fix it. that's the major roadblock right now. what the president is doing by creating an additional class of people, putting them ahead of the 4.6 million people who are following the laws, it's a disincentive for people to actually follow the law. whatever we do, for me

personally, whatever we do, i can't reward that illegality by providing them with ebt cards or preferential housing during that so-called coming out of the shadows period. so whatever we do, we can't continue to provide those benefits, because they're not entitled to them. they haven't earned them. and is there an opportunity potentially down the road? i'm listening but it's not going to be done until we take care of the basics. [applause] >> earlier this week, i had dinner in new york with the foreign minister of an asian country. he started out saying -- he'd been here for a week for the u.n. general assembly. he said, i know you have problems here in america. and i know, number 1, the government is dysfunctional -- [laughter] >> i said, really? i hadn't noticed that.

[laughter] >> so he said, but i think you've stopped appreciating the good things that are happening in this country. incidentally, one of them, he said, was we have suddenly become an enormous -- we're generating our own energy now and it's going to skyrocket to a point where our our economy will continue to grow and grow. but the second thing he said was, there is no country in the world, and he's not from china. he's from another country in asia, including china, where people of talent want to go to america, because they still believe -- and it is -- the land of opportunity. so we have a lot to feel good

about. [applause] >> that's a nice point to make. so i want to switch a little bit now. we're talking about borders and trying to secure the borders. but the one thing you cannot secure borders from is disease. i'm sure you all know that the first case of ebola was diagnosed in dallas, someone who traveled from west africa, not contagious when they traveled but was diagnosed a few days later. he was in critical condition. it has been updated. that brings us to health care. also, today marks one year since california's version of the affordable care act, covered california began. i wanted to ask you both, first of all, about ebola. i believe you were talking to the governor of texas? >> senator cornyn last night actually. he got the call at the dinner table. they said you know all the facts. they seem to have it contained at this point. but obviously it's a concern. who would have thought that it would be that rampant? it just goes to show the health care and the ability to quickly

respond in that part of the world is not up to par. with regard to health care, i think people know where i stand. i'm a states rights guy. i can believe we can do it better in the states. i don't believe the federal government can do it as well as we can in the states. i look at the v.a. and obamacare. obamacare is the v.a. in a couple of years. it's top-heavy, bloated, a bureaucratic nightmare. i voted five times to repeal it. you say, what would you do? you don't want people to have health care? of course i do. i voted on a plan that worked for that state. what worked for that state may not work for new hampshire. but we have smart people in our states. we can develop a plan that addresses all of your concerns and i believe we can do it quicker and be less top-heavy. we can really step back from the bureaucratic nightmare. and don't forget, folks, we have a businessman date coming in after the election. that is the number 1 wet blanket. i don't care where you live. employers are keeping their hours under 30, so that moms like my mom -- my mom and dad were married and divorced four times each.

lived in 17 houses by the time i was 18. my mom, when she was lucky, had a job for 40, 50, 60 hours and she could spend a little time with us. we were a pretty dysfunctional family but -- a little bit. [laughter] and now, she can't do it, because employers are keeping those hours down. now she has to work two or three jobs to make that time. the family time is gone. the benefits are not as good. she's paying more in gas prices. i believe we can do it better. i think we have the ability to do it better. and i look forward to getting back and repealing it and starting again. >> quickly, on ebola, i mean, it reminds us that we live in a world where old diseases can occur but they can move very quickly, because we all move very quickly. this case in texas is a classic, that this is a man who went very quickly from liberia to the u.s., because people travel all the time around the world. food moves all around the world. and we have to be careful.

i think the good news for us here is that we've got a great health care system. and so far, as we've seen from the ebola cases that affected americans who have come back, they've survived, because it can be treated in an advanced health care system like our own. my wife is in a panic about it. she sent me two e-mails that i got when i came off the plane today, be careful about shaking hands with people. [laughter] so -- but i'm sure a lot of people out there feel that way. so i'm just saying there's reason to be concerned and careful. and incidentally, at the texas hospital, for all i know, they really handled that situation badly. as a result, unfortunately, because of their mistake,

there's no hospital in america from now on that's going to have somebody come into the emergency room and report the symptoms that that gentleman felt and say he's just here from liberia and they say -- >> go home. >> hello! hello! >> take two aspirins and call us in the morning. [laughter] let's see. without making a speech -- >> no, not you. >> nah. >> there's always a danger in inviting former senators, because we've lost the right to filibuster. i ended up voting for the affordable care act. it wasn't an easy vote but i felt we needed national standards. i felt two things. one is there are too many people in our country that didn't have health insurance and the rest of us were paying for it, either pause they were going to the hospitals -- because they were going to the hospitals anyway and getting treatment, through medicaid particularly, and the second was that the cost of health care was going up dramatically. it was a tough decision, because

it was clearly an imperfect bill. i will say that president clinton came in and spoke to some of us who were wavering. and in classic clinton logic, he said, y'all know the current system is inadequate. you all know that this bill is imperfect. but get it as good as you can get it, because you're going to come back every session for the next 25 years to fix it, because you just can't get it right the first time. unfortunately today, because of the partisanship, when there is a problem, people don't find it possible to sit down and cross party lines and fix it. the one thing i feel good about -- it was my final act when i signed out of this -- i demanded they pull out the public option, which in my opinion was an opener for a

government-controlled health care system, health insurance health care system in america, which i think would have reduced the quality of health care and literally bankrupted our government. we've got work to do. i'd probably give it about a c-plus or a c so far. i would have given it a d-minus at the beginning. but scott is right. some of the most controversial -- >> say that again. >> i better be careful! scott is right about what i'm about to say. [laughter] which is, as in the businessman date, a few of the most controversial but most important

parts of the affordable care act have been delayed by executive order. >> hmm. >> and when they come on -- well, we'll see what happens. >> so... i love you. like a brother. like a brother. for get that. i'm your older -- i'm your grandfather. 18 new taxes. three quarters of a trillion cut from medicare to help pay for another program. the businessman date has not come in yet. it's devastating businesses right now. the plans have gone down, deductibles have gone up. the coverages are not adequate enough. and you said it. we have the greatest health care system in the world. well, because of a lot of the

reimbursements, doctors are being shortchanged. our nursing facilities, they're not getting the adequate reimbursements, and our moms and dads and loved ones are being pushed out of the hospitals and rehab facilities earlier. we have our veterans -- a letter came back from the v.a. they're slashing the reimbursements for our veterans in those facilities. i gotta be honest with you joe and everyone else listening. i think people should have access to health care or the ability to purchase insurance to get health care and i believe we can cover people on medicaid and others who need it. a state that i worked in prior to this passed 198-2, and because of the federal plan, that plan now is a mess. other states who have tried to do it their own way and address all the things that everyone wants, preexisting condition, catastrophic care, covering your kids, you can do it in the states. i'm not saying let's not help people. i'm talking about let's do it ourselves. we can do it better. look at the post office. i love the postal guys. look at the v.a. if you think the federal government can do it better than us, we're just going to respectfully disagree. >> so we patterned the national health care bill -- >> we didn't raise 18 new taxes, joe and we didn't cut three quarters of a trillion dollars. maybe there was a loose association. >> who was the governor? >> governor romney, who, by the way, was right on russia. he was right on obamacare and he

was right on the economy. >> well, i was just reading consumer reports. they did an analysis on health care. and i mean, you're saying it's the best in the world, but there's a lot of reports that show you can get better coverage for much less. some places, you pay $800 for tylenol or something like that. there's got to be a better way. >> it's commonsense stuff we need to fix. >> one topic and you both have brought this up. this is something -- when i went to cover the inauguration, i got to speak to nancy pelosi. and my big question for her, and i want to bring it up to you, is what can we do about the dysfunctioning congress? you both have mentioned there's this partisanship. as someone who wants to get back to the senate next month, what do you think needs to happen in order for the congress to be able to move forward? >> that's easy. listen, i'm an american first. i'm not a republican first. i'm an american, a proud

american. and one of the reasons i want to go back there, because i was listening to harry reid misleading the people about fast and furious, benghazi, and i was complaining so much, my wife said, honey, go down and get involved. the key is you need bipartisan senators. now, i was 50/50. you can't argue with facts. i was 50/50. and virtually many people on both sides, they vote 99, 98% of the time with their party. that's not how you're gonna solve problems. the one thing, and i mean this wholeheartedly, that i truly admire and respect about joe, is out of anyone there, he was the most thoughtful, compassionate problem-solver there. when he left, the united states senate lost somebody very special. and if people like him and senator collins and joe mansion is coming along in a good way,

there are good democrats and republicans, social moderates, good people on both sides of almost every issue. but they forget about being an american first. and our country is in trouble. it really is. we're in economic malaise. we have an energy policy that's problematic. our view in the world is not being respected. we have to restore america. we have to restore america. the only way you do that is to send independent problem-solvers back or part those types of people, not only in washington, but in your city councils, your assemblies and your state houses as well. >> scott is -- [applause]

scott described the problem really well. i mean, as my years went on there, i was so struck and disappointed by the fact that really, most people work so hard to come to congress. they're good people. they want to serve the country. and yet they get there, and they get divided into these strange almost childish warring teams. and, you know, washington, our first president warned in his farewell address against the danger of what he called factions, which were political factions, really political parties. he said he worried that future americans would put the interests of the political faction ahead of the interests of the country. and really, we're living washington's nightmare today. each party used to be quite diverse. let me see if i can do this quickly. every year, one of the magazines in washington rates members of

congress in three areas, social policy, economic policy, foreign and national security policy. and they rate them, us, on a liberal-conservative scale. for years, most years, you'd have in the middle, about 20 or 30 people, which was a mixture of democrats and republicans. the last -- recent years, you can't find a democrat who is more liberal than any republican -- do i have that right? no. the other way around. a republican who is more -- see what an independent i am? you know what i'm saying. it's like warring camps. here's the bottom line. the main point, are you republican, democrat or an american? and obviously you've got to put america first.

the second thing is, you've got to be willing to compromise. you can't get anything done without compromising. and i don't mean a compromise of principle. i mean when you go into a negotiation on a piece of legislation, you can't say i will not vote for this unless i get 100% of what i want. if you get 50%, okay. maybe you'll get 60% or 70%. even better. and that's not happening. and i'll tell you, we have some enormous problems. the deficit, the debt, remains an enormous problem. immigration is an enormous problem. the question is, is congress going to get together and solve those problems before they become catastrophes? and ultimately, you know, as the great george bernard shaw said, the great thing about a democracy is people get the leadership they deserve. >> i love all your quotes.

i miss them so much. every day in our hearings, you came in with five or six. >> i appeal to you, say to your candidates, i want you to go down there and do what you think is right to get something done, even if i disagree with you on that one, because the country needs to solve our problems. >> so is that something you think is still possible? >> yeah, i do. >> there are extremists on both sides. >> i'm hopeful. i'm a glass half full guy. i believe in america. i believe we can restore america. it's a great country. but i think we have work to do in certain areas. listen, they don't talk. they don't work together. they leave at 12:00 on thursday and come back monday night for a fake vote. if i was the leader, i would tell them, listen, we're not going home and by the way we're

gonna do a couple of retreats together. we're going to get to know each other and our families and kind of reconnect. [applause] >> all right. we have questions from the audience. one, i think we talked a little bit about. but tell us your best ideas for addressing income and equality. >> one of the ways we can kind of rise everybody's votes, i believe, starting out, we need to repeal obamacare and we need to get that wet blanket off businesses and individuals, because if you look at the challenges right now of -- just so you know, as i said, my mom and dad were married and divorced four times each. my mom was on welfare. a lot of challenges. arrested at 12. wasn't easy. i remember, my first job at 13 years old, duncan donuts. do you guys have these out here yet? >> they're on the way. >> but -- and my mom struggled to, you know, obviously provide for our family. but when you're looking at, how do you actually get ahead? i remember like it was yesterday, when i was 18 years old and had those challenges, that ronald reagan said, you

know what? we're a party of opportunity. and if you work hard, one, two jobs, you join forces with a friend and you create a business,ing a corporation, that corporation -- that corporation can actually hire people and grow and expand and you can fulfill the american dream. i want everybody to have the opportunities that i have, that ronald reagan put in my head, and you have to do it by allowing our job creators the ability to create jobs. obamacare is a wet blanket. in new hampshire, prices are doubling this winter. we have a situation with the unelected unaccountable bureaucrats circumventing our laws and putting in more and more regulations. we have the highest corporate tax rate. i was driving, listening to the radio, and they're talking about tree taxes. so because they can't afford to maintain the trees, they gave it to the homeowners.

and the homeowners are not having success, so they want to do a parcel tax. every time you turn around, the government is looking for more and more money. if you think the federal government doesn't have enough money, you're wrong. there's plenty of money. let's find a way to do that streamline and consolidating. let's fix the tax code. let's find ways to do it like we do in our homes and businesses. then if there's a question and we're still short, then come to me. but the only way we're going to address income equality is to allow people to have jobs. and right now it's flat. >> there's certain sectors. listen. certain sectors doing well but all in all, things are flat. there's a lack of regulatory -- individuals are very nervous right now. >> so i would say and you hear this a lot in washington, that the simple answer to income inquality is to raise taxes. i think that's the wrong answer. if you look at our tax system, it's a very progressive tax system. about 50% of our people essentially pay no taxes. and we have something called the

earned income tax credit which helps people at the lower end who are working to be able to save more. i know this is a slogan but i think it's the truth. the best way to end income inequality is to get the economy growing more. >> amen. >> to me, the most significant thing we can do is have a long-term debt reduction plan for america, because jobs don't come from governments. jobs come from the private sector. a lot of the private sector is sitting on an enormous amount of cash. why? because they don't know what's coming. >> they can't get it back. >> they can't bring it back from abroad. some of them are sitting on it here because they don't know

what the future is. i think if we create stability, , if we put ourselves on the road back to some kind of balance in our federal government, that's the best thing we can do to end income inequality. there's one other thing you can do, which is that during this last great recession, a certain number of people lost their jobs, who will never get those jobs back, because they're not there. and we've got to -- and a lot of them are not so old. some of them are in their 40's, 50's. we've got to figure out targeted ways -- again, maybe tax incentives to business -- to retrain those people for jobs that exist. >> someone had brought in our satellite room a question. i touched on it briefly. senator lieberman, it's talking about intruders breaking into the white house. obviously there was one very public event on friday. but there have been others as

well. you had the secret service when you were the vice presidential nominee. do you think the secret service has weakened significantly? what's happened to it? >> i can tell you that all my memories of that relationship with the secret service in 2000 are positive. these are extraordinary people. they, as everybody says, put their lives on the line. i'll never forget walking through a crowd -- the first time it happened, i didn't know it was going on. i suddenly feel a hand going into the back of my belt. and it was a guy named mike, chief of my detail, he leaned forward and said i'm just going to hold on to you a while. there's something out there i don't like. he got closer to me, about as close as you could get. that's the way they are. that's the way they are. so it's been -- actually it's been disheartening for me to watch this series of events going back to this business with the press and then these lapses,

in a row. so something has gone wrong there. these are good people. they work hard. but something has gone wrong -- i hate to use the word -- but the culture of the place. it's not up to me, but i think maybe the secret service is ready for a new director from outside. and maybe somebody from the military who has that kind of executive experience to shake it up and make it work again. >> i think it used to be run by the treasury. now it's run by homeland security. there's so much bureaucracy involved. >> you know, i don't think that's the problem. i think it's really within the organization. but here's something else, which is that they still have -- the secret service still has some historic responsibilities which ought to be -- like they still investigate cases of counterfeiting of money. and they've got so much to do to protect the president, visiting dignitaries, et cetera, that that ought to go to somebody else, who can handle it, like the fbi. let them focus on security. >> joe has much more experience.

i'll defer to his expertise on that. >> senator brown, another question from the audience. has the international opinion of the usa improved or declined under president obama? >> i think because of his confusing foreign policy, it's absolutely declined. there's a lack of trust, not only between our allies and the united states, a lack of fear and respect from our foes. there's also a lack of trust between the american citizens and government -- i'll just say big government, you know. that includes members of congress. and there's a lack of trust. they're upset about the dysfunction, upset about the lack of transparency, when you're talking about benghazi, talking about fast and furious, when you're looking at agencies purportedly being used as political arms, the irs, the justice department, with what

was happening with some of the targets or lack of prosecution in other areas. as i said, we live in the greatest country in the world. i'm so hopeful and i know democracy, as joe referenced, is not meant to be easy. it's messy. i'm hopeful we'll get it together and have folks who will finally say, yeah, okay, let's go and just take back our country and get things back on track. >> amen. surprisingly, in the polling i've seen from around the world, we are thought of less well. and it's unusual, because, you know, when president bush left, he wasn't popular in a lot of parts of the world. when president obama came in, there was tremendous hope around the world. but that moment is lost. i do think, as scott said, a lot of it is because we've sent an uncertain message. the fact is, as we see every day in the newspapers, on tv, et cetera, it's a dangerous

world, a world in which if you're the greatest country in the world, which we are, unless our enemies fear us and our allies trust us, the world is going to be a much more dangerous place. that's where it is today. i'll just go back to this foreign minister from an asian country. i've heard this over and over. most of these problems have happened in the middle east. but i -- we asked him the other night, what's the opinion of the u.s. in asia today? he said, you know, there's great respect for your economy and everybody wants to go to america. but really, we don't know whether we can rely on you anymore. you know, we've got china, which is big and threatens a lot of us. so we watched what happened in syria with the red lines, and we said to ourselves, wow, i mean -- and he wasn't from japan. if the chinese move to the japanese islands, what will the united states do? so the president began to turn this around in a speech at the united nations.

he said things he should have said five years ago, about how there's just some places in the world where you've got to use force to protect your interests and your values. i just hope he sticks with it. then i'm afraid in this 60 minutes interview, he said some things that undercut that. i've been a critic of his. i didn't support him back then. i supported my friend mccain. but we need him to succeed. he's going to be president for more than two years. these are going to be critical years. so i hope he continues on the themes that he struck at the u.n. that day and in the speech to the nation. >> listen, the speeches are over. people don't want speeches. they want direction. they want guidance.

they want action. there's a tremendous void that's been left. i understand spending good time in japan. they are nervous. there is a void. we don't have potentially the ability to respond, because we have the president wanting to cut our military down to world war ii levels. there's economic challenges where we have a $17 trillion debt, running trillion-dollar deficits. we're at an economic damage. china owns a fair amount of our debt. and china's military is building up. what do we have? we have a world on fire. look at israel and hamas. it's the worst relationship since the starting of the state of israel. that relationship is terrible. we have what's happening in ukraine, with crimea and russia. putin has another two years to push the envelope and will do so. you know it and i do. you see what's happening in syria, iraq, afghanistan potentially. fortunately, they signed a status of forces agreement.

then we see what's happening in africa with boko haram. now, i know and you know there's -- we sent a bill to the foreign relations committee, asking that boko haram be deemed a terrorist organization. we sent a letter to hillary clinton asking them to deem that group a terrorist organization. they did nothing. so there's this constant lack of understanding and comprehending what the problems are. sending out terrible messages. it's really coming back, unfortunately, to hurt us dramatically. >> the foreign policy, there's also growing unrest in hong kong this week, because of the chinese control of elections. i was also wanting to get your reaction about israel and hamas. is that something that will ever be settled? will we ever see peace in the middle east?

>> first, about hong kong, this is a remarkable moment. it happened in the arab spring, short-lived. these people were rising up for their freedom and economic opportunity. obviously it happened in ukraine, when the ukrainian people rose up and said they want to be part of europe. they don't want to be part of being dominated by russia anymore. here's hong kong. this is all about a promise that china made to hong kong when it took back hong kong essentially from britain 20 years ago or almost 20 years ago. it was 1997. in 2017, they said the people of hong kong would get to choose their president. now china says yes, you'll choose your president but we will choose the candidates you choose from. [laughter] and they go out into the streets. this is a real test of the leader of china. and i'm afraid it's going to end up with the government using force. but if they were smart, what's the big deal? let them choose their leader. now, i could take too long on this, but the situation in the middle east, what we've seen in

the last three, four years is that, though we were focused on the israeli-palestinian conflict, the larger and more consequential conflicts are now being the modernizers and violent extremists. but the israeli-palestinian conflict, if it could be solved, would help everything. it's just, when you've got a group like hamas, which still is openly committed to terrorist action against israel and the destruction of the state of israel, the israelis are never going to sit down at the table with them. arafat changed what he said, although not much about israel, and they did sit down at the table with him. at least they had some steps forward. it's hard to be optimistic about

it right now. it's really part of the larger problem now in the muslim world, because the palestinian authority leadership is relatively moderate. and we -- i voted to support them financially and politically in congress. but they're now being threatened by people like hamas, who really are part of the muslim brotherhood, sort of the cousins of isis. as long as that happens, there's not going to be anything like peace in the middle east. >> and israel has every right to defend itself. hamas is there to wipe israel off the face of the earth. i've been there. you see the rockets and missiles lined up at the police facilities, child care facilities. it's no way to live. it's smaller than the state of rhode island. they're under siege from all directions. so i certainly support their efforts. and i think that leads to iran and what's happening with iran. i never would have allowed that deal to move forward, without absolute, positive steps for

them to stop enriching uranium. the fact that the president has already given them an extension and got nothing in return, once again, it's that lack of clarity, that lack of commitment. he should have said, we're immediately putting sanctions in. that's why i'm looking forward to hopefully getting back and leading that charge. >> well, speaking of hopefully going back, i do want -- i know you can't look in crystal balls but the election is coming up in less than five weeks. i assume that you are confident that the senate is going to turn and become republican? >> i'm not confident about anything. i take each day. [laughter] i'm not one of those. i'm one of those people who thinks, oh, this and that. i deal in fact. i'm going to wait until november 4, around 10:00. i'm focusing on what i can do to help. i believe that there are certain indications. but i'll leave that to the political pundits. my race, you know, i'm either

tied or up four right now. it's going to be interesting. people are looking, i think, for independent leadership versus rubber stamps at this point. so we'll see. >> all right. any predictions over here, senator? >> so obviously i'm out. i was obviously a wild independent anyway. >> huh-uh. >> ha ha! >> so i can't predict. and these races can change quickly. but i would say, bottom line, the odds are trending toward a republican takeover of the senate. and i don't want to go into this in too much detail, but right now there's 55 democrats effectively and 45 republicans. so the republicans have to pick up six seats to get the majority. almost everybody agrees there are a bunch of states where there are democratic incumbents in close battles. i'll start way out west, alaska, colorado, iowa. let's see. >> north carolina. >> arkansas, north carolina, louisiana and did i say

new england? no. new hampshire. [laughter] >> you know, i got to find a new partner. so -- >> any day. >> so you've got about seven or eight states that seem to be trending republican. so i'd say that's the odds. people thought there were two -- one republican incumbent who might be in trouble. interestingly, mitch mcconnell, the majority leader. but i'd say right now, no. that was the general point of view. surprisingly, and this is why nobody really can predict, pat roberts in kansas looks like he is in difficulty. the independent candidate poll, six points ahead today. so who knows? but if you put it all together, it looks like it is moving. also, the other thing to

notice -- i probably spend too much time reading this stuff -- >> you do. >> what else do i have to do now? [laughter] as my wife says, from the pain of personal experience, living with me, politics is an incurable disease. [laughter] so there's an interesting factor that you see in some of the polling, which is that commitment to both is much higher among republicans and democrats so far. in other words, if you ask people,, if you ask people do you intend to vote and how strongly do you feel about it, it's much higher among republicans. if that holds, that will favor republican majorities. >> what does that mean? means harry reid is the minority leader. there's upwards of 400 bills and put them on the president's desk. and then we, and you, in the media, can say, mr. president, why didn't you sign that bill on border security? why didn't you do that visa bill we were talking about for immigration? why didn't you approve the

keystone pipeline? and he has to answer and respond, instead of blaming other people in the 60 minutes piece, why he didn't do these things. we have the ability to get things, i think, done. go back to regular order. how about that, joe? going through the committee process, the appropriations process, getting back to allowing people to file an amendment and actually get it heard. he only brought up seven amendments this year from republicans and only allowed seven. and every one of them failed. there are good people who have good ideas. and part of the problem is, when you file a bill, when he files a bill, he files a bill -- he says we're just going to change the entire structure of the economy. we're gonna do it in an hour. he moves for closure. doesn't allow any amendments except for a couple of his buddies. he forces us to say we're not going to do it if we don't get amendments, because we have some good ideas. we have some great ideas in

energy, allowing, modifying, updating our tax code. there's so many things we could do. but he doesn't do that. the insider trading bill, passed almost 100-0. when he allows us to go through the process and everyone is part of the process, it passes. that's the problem. >> let me give sort of a hopeful, very hopeful scenario of what might happen if the senate goes republican and congress is republican. just somebody told me an old joke that i hadn't heard for a long time a couple days ago, which relates to what i'm about to say. when elizabeth taylor got married for the seventh time, somebody said what that was, was the triumph of hope over experience. [laughter] >> so i'm going to now give you

the political version of that. there have been occasions in our history -- i must admit occasions when washington was not as divided along partisan lines as it is today -- when congress is controlled by one party and the president is of another party, they actually end up negotiating agreements. >> bill clinton. >> bill clinton did. >> bill clinton is a classic, right. when gingrich brought in the crowd in the house -- if anybody said these two people, gingrich and clinton, would be able to work together, but they negotiated agreements like reagan and o'neal. that's the hope here. it will take the president -- and remember, the president now is going to be, in the last two years, he's got to be thinking about, what mark have i been able to make in a positive way on this country? and what it's going to mean is he's going to have to separate

himself from some in the democrat party to negotiate compromise agreements with the republicans, and hopefully the republicans, in turn, will be willing to compromise and meet him somewhere in the middle. >> in the next two years, it will be pretty interesting to see. >> maybe better than we think. >> eternal optimist. so that leads to the next question. which two candidates would you like to see run for president in 2016? [laughter] >> and why? >> i really think it's too early. you're going to get -- there's so much happening right now. >> you think hillary clinton is -- >> listen, i'll leave that once again to the political pundits. people are so focused on 2014, people really don't care about 2016. we need to deal with the issues right now. that's where my head is at. [applause] >> well-said. i mean, it's too early to say who i think.

but i guess you'd have to say, if you invite me to be a political commentator, that if hillary clinton runs, she's going to get the democrat nomination. she will get the nomination. >> the question is, will she run? >> that's the question. if she doesn't, you will have in both parties -- the interesting race will be for the nomination. for the republican party, there will be a lot of candidates. you know, in a presidential primary, it's actually the one time when our parties nationally define themselves. we write platforms for our national parties but frankly, they don't mean a hell of a lot. i'm sorry to say that. but the reality is, when the voters come out in the primaries, they decide what kind of party they want to have. and the challenge for the republicans, if i may say so as an independent, will be to nominate somebody who is seen as a problem-solver and not an

extremist, if you will. and in a more practical political sense, somebody who can get the support of moderate voters. to me, one of the most stunning numbers, in so-called commit polls, after the last presidential election, was that president obama defeated mitt romney among self-described moderates by something like 16 points. president obama, some people don't think he's a moderate. i think what happened among moderates is he looked relatively moderate compared to the republican, romney. romney actually generally is a moderate. but the perception of the parties. so it's going to be a fascinating couple of years. if hillary doesn't run, the exact same contest will occur in the democratic primaries. no clear favorite.

and a real battle for what the party stands for. >> is going to be interesting to watch. we will go to the election and go from there. to wrap it up, i want to ask each of you, since you have had illustrious as editions in your ,- positions in your career what you would consider your highlight. >> being a father. that is a professional career. i have had two daughters get married. >> wow. we have been together for 30 years. professionent is a and one of the hardest. making sure you can find the balance between being a husband and wife and loving and caring for each other.

raising kids to give them good morals and beliefs. you give them enough room to grow. i am blessed. i would say that. to think someone could ever be a united states senator with the background that i have and represent the country as one of the 100 people to make decisions is an honor. i look forward to having the honor again. >> my wife is going to watch this on c-span. >> the wife is watching right now. >> we used to say on the senate floor that i want to associate myself with everything that senator brown says. you have the great highlight coming. grandchildren. i feel privileged. i was in elected office for 40

years. 16 in connecticut. what an honor. i am proud of a lot of things that i was able to do. all of them in the senate were across party lines. you cannot get anything done without some support of the party. by a twist of fate, i was in position with fred thompson before he went off and sold reverse mortgages. i missed him. i love to see him on tv. there is susan collins in the center of adapting legislation that was aimed at protecting after 9/11. the greatest little cultural by life and my career was to be nominated for vice president. tother of my parents went college. middle-class family.

my dad had a little store. they give you the greatest ,alues and motivation, support and i never could have dreamed of being a senator or vice president. to have the honor of being the first jewish-american to run for national office defined what i had confidence in. meody is for or against based on religion. that is what america is all about. >> you keep in touch with al gore? >> you know, the question was if i keep in touch with al gore, only by e-mail. he did invent the internet. so -- fair, to say this, to be

the choice of a vice presidential nominee is the most power inl exercise of american politics. the president gets to choose who you want. took thendedly, he risk of having the first jewish-american and the confidence in the american that wouldeel that not hurt his chances. i will tell you a funny story. the night i went down to nashville -- i am telling too many stories -- you will get a kick out of this one. i decided i would be the running mate. being responsible, he had to ask people -- a small number of people -- if america is ready for a jewish person as vice president. a heartbeat away from the presidency.

he asked christian and jewish friends. here is what i found. there was anxiety among my jewish friends. all the christians said there was no problem. know therecause i are so many more christians in america than jews, i was able to choose you. >> thank you. much.nk you very that wraps it up. we appreciate both of you being here. thank you. >> thank you everybody. [applause] captioned by the national captioning institute --www.ncicap.org--

whetherourt decided on states could dan same-sex marriage. it allowed gay men and women to marry in five states. we spoke with a reporter about the issue. >> this morning come the supreme court declined to hear cases from states on the issue of same-sex marriage. ashbyg us on the phone is jones, who covers issues with the wall street journal. thank you for being with us. what was the significance of what the court did? but it was surprising. most thought the supreme court would take up one of these cases and settle once and for all whether the bands in states are legal. the court said they would not hear the cases. leaves does is lease --

in place the lower court rulings. they have all said that same-sex marriage bans are illegal. it says all the rulings can stand and we are going to see .ore there were direct challenges and i don't want to list them -- there are a number of other

longer for the kind of the legal procedural used to work their way through but it does mean at the end of the day, i think about 30 states plus washington, d.c. same sex marriage will be legal as a result of today's rulings. >> we don't know how the justices voted behind closed doors but can you give any insight? >> we don't. four have to agree to hear it. then the whole court hears it. all we know is in none of the cases did four justices say yes we want to hear this case. so -- but beyond that we don't

know much. the only other thing a couple weeks ago justice ginsberg in a speech in minnesota said that in her opinion she didn't think the timing was right to hear these cases because there was not yet a lower court split. all of the cases have gone on the lower courts have basically struck down same sex marriage bans and the supreme court typically waits until it has a plit among the lower courts before it jumps in. so reading from her comments earlier we can extrapolate she did not vote to hear these cases. but in terms of the others and how they aligned up we don't know at this point. >> the bottom line this does not necessarily settle the case and the court could take it up down the future. >> that's right. just because they said they are not getting involved now, even late anywhere this term if in

fact we get one of the rule chgs says a ban on same sex marriage is legal then we would have a circuit split and we would have sort of the conditions necessary in justice ginsberg's thinking at least for the supreme court to get involved. we've got a case going on in new orleans down at u.s. court of appeals for the fifth circuit which could go the other way which could come out in favor of the states. we've also got one at the circuitth circuit in cincinnati which could come out the other way. so we'll pay attention to those two going forward and seeing if they do provide the necessary circuit split. >> nobody's happy. really nobody's happy with this. i shouldn't say that. i do think that there are big sort of swaths on either side of the debate that are not happy. obviously the people who are not in favor of same sex marriage

don't like that this just essentially paved the way for same sex marriages to begin in 11 more states. and the people who do support, while i think they're happy partly they're not entirely happy. they were hoping for the supreme court to weigh in on this and presumably to rule you know what? these states bans are unconstitutional and basically to save the way for same sex marriage to happen across the country. i do think there's a little bit of frustration on both sides but it's a bigger win for those who favor same sex marriage. >> finally, did this surprise you today? >> it did. it really did. the supreme court has -- in the past typically they do wait until there's a circuit split to jump nn on something but it hasn't stopped them from jumping in on highly controversial issues in the past. think of bush v. gore when there wasn't a circuit split and they

didn't hesitate to jump in and settle a highly controversial issue. so i was surprised. and also two years ago they jumped in and took up two cases that dealt with the same issue. so i was a little surprised they didn't get involved today even though there is not the circuit split that they like to see. i think a lot of commentators were relatively surprised too. so whether it's the end of the story or pushes it off we'll see. >> we will look for your line. >> look at our live coverage. a panel will examine how u.s. foreign policy decisions affect latin america and hispanic voters in the u.s. we'll hear from the white house former director will youice miranda.

later in the afternoon the wilson center hosts an event on the key stone xl pipeline. >> here are just a few of the comments we've recently received from our viewers. >> you don't have to be an einstein to know the only way to keep ebola from coming in the united states is to have the president step in and demand that no one from africa be allowed to come into this country until this is completely eradicated. i can't comprehend how people are so nonchalante about this ebola getting into the united states. i'm so glad c-span put out this number for viewers to come in. i hope all people who feel as i do will call in and state their outrage as to how this is

problem is being handled and demand the president to take this action. what did the people expect? they said it would never reach the united states ever. now look what's happened. and it put 3,000 other people other there? are you kidding me? falling for this bunch of bull jack that the doctors are smiling up there we've got this under control? it will never spread? blah blah blah. well, if it wasn't supposed to get over here either blah blah blah. >> a wonderful discussion going on right now panel discussion on the eesh la virus. it has been revealed over the news this morning that the and came eft libera from west africa over here. he got off went to his kin

folks' house in northeast dallas, his family members contracted the ebola virus from him. he could be construed that that was a reckless disregard to the americans when the guy was allowed to leave or place this plague with the ebola virus without somebody having checked him out before he boarded the plane or then after boarding the plane nobody checks him out and he goes right on into the dallas community. and now as a result of that, there are people in quarantine. he's in the hospital. i haven't checked the local news yet because i still have it c-span right now to see whether he's going to live or die. >> continue to let us know abwhat you think about the rograms you're watching.

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>> good evening, and welcome to the special 2014 edition of arizona horizon. tonight show is a debate sponsored by clean elections. we will hear from candidates looking to lead the state as the next governor. this is not a formal exercise. an open exchange of ideas. an opportunity for give and take for this top office. interjections are allowed provided that all sites get a fair shake and will do our best to see that that happens. or candidates are competing for chief executive. they are republican state treasurer in businessman doug ducey. each candidate will have one minute for opening and closing statements. we drew numbers to see who goes first and that honor goes to fred duvall. >> good evening. i love arizona. i grew up here and we love this place. i am running for governor as we are worried arizona is headed in the wrong direction and our

children are losing out. the deep cuts in education have been too severe. we are losing jobs and opportunities. i will stop the cuts to public education. i will use the veto if necessary, but no more cuts. not another dollar, not another penny. the voters have a choice. the supreme court has recently made a decision that the voters instructed the legislature to invest in children school. i believe we should enforce this immediately and reinvest in our children's schools. doug and other candidates disagree with that. i think the most important thing we can do to turn the economy around is to invest and the children school and invest in the future. >> was the next opening statement we turn to john mueller. >> i am an independent constitutionalist. ere is my opportunity.

i agree with fred about the education being in need of heavy repair. i detail away to play for this. we need to increase revenue. i truly believe arizona needs to run arizona. no longer special interest groups which happen to be both parties. i am the independent and would like to serve you as governor. >> thank you. my name is doug and i want to be your next governor. my wife and i have been married 24 years this october and we have three sun. jack, joe, and sam. i am running on real world experience as a small-business owner of cold stone creamery, chief executive officer in current treasurer managing 12.5 billion dollars of arizona state

tax. i will have a clear agenda as your next governor. i want to kickstart the economy so there are more jobs for hard-working arizona's attorney into hard-working careers. i want to restore the educational system to the level of excellence we expect to better serve teachers, students and parents. i want to take charge in the direction of the state. i want to be an independent voice and am proud to announce tonight that i have been endorsed by the state democratic agenda. i have reached out to catherine. she has joined the campaign. i am running to be governor of the people. >> final statement, we turn to barry hess. >> as you can artie tells, i can tell you what is going to happen. the democrat telling you he

knows how to spend your money, raise and educate your children and control your personal life that are then you can. the republican will be a little different. he will tell you he knows how to raise your children and spend your money. i am a libertarian and have to tell you, i believe these are things only you can do. i do not agree that we have to continue funding an excessively bloated education program. we are not getting our money's worth and more money is not the answer. otherwise washington would not be a willing us out of last place in the state. i think you will see all whole lot of differences that mindful always be focused on the rights of the individual and protecting you. that is why i want to be your governor. >> let's get the discussion started. how are you going to balance the budget you don't court say you have to pay for them.

how will you pay for them? >> the supreme court has ruled and said the voters were quite clear that we needed to pay back the money. the first place to start is the rainy day fund. so we need to use the rainy day fund to begin the process of a multiyear commitment. then we need to go through a variety of other steps to make sure we can make state government more efficient. i think it offers many possibilities that must establish the priorities. my absolute priority is no more cuts. we see the largest class sizes. record levels of teacher flight from our state and these are all a result of the sustained cutting of education and balancing the budget on the backs of education. that has to stop. >> 300 million every year. >> the first thing we wanted to do is make sure we're spending the money in the proper places.

i want to see the dollars go to teachers in the classrooms. i wanted to go to funding what works and want to focus on literacy that can make the biggest difference in the state of arizona. 1.7 billion dollars cash today at 454 in a reserve account earning interest. i am going to balance the budget one fiscal year at a time. let's make sure we are properly spending the dollar so we're best serving our children, teachers and the parents. like that money will have to be accounted for somehow. how will you balance the budget? >> we will look at everything going on in the budget. i am a business person. i want to go through the budget line and dollar by dollar. we have 27% of the states work force outside of education that is eligible for retirement in the next four years. you do not have to let one person go but through

disciplined hiring and the use of technology you can find savings and efficiencies, and that is what i will do as governor. >> we are not talking about three point one million in back pavement's how will you balance the budget? >> i believe with the industry kit and it is all detailed in the book that i have. i detail how we can take the state trust fund or trust land and break it down with taxable property. these industries have been knocking on our door for at east 25 years. we need to bring them in. we need to allow the taxable property to be taxed. > what do you think? >> i think if we have a surplus, e can just pay it off now. my plan calls for using the rainy day fund and reclaiming some of the lands the feds have taken it and selling it for the urpose of education.

most importantly what i will strive for is asking the voters to repeal the mandatory spending. it is not about money. we have artie seen that. we had to cut the spending because the education budget absorbs almost 50% of the udget. >> can i go back to this. i want to talk about the two ideas doug has put on the table. the notion we can capture hundreds of billions in reorganization of the state government. this was the effort to do just that. we lost children detective services in the process. sometimes the agency stand independently say you have accountability. secondly, the notion we are not going to fill state positions as they come open is a foolish isk. are we not going to replace dps officers on the border? are we not going to replace corrections officers when they etire?

that is a very dangerous idea. >> the notion he would not put public safety first is a distortion of what i am talking about. 80 separate agencies representing a billion in annual spending. anyone who thinks they cannot tighten the belt for bits and cannot do better in the bloated bureaucracies. i think we need to look at the core functions. that is why i talk about the education system, moving arizona in the right direction. we can do a whole lot better than we are doing today. >> the push for a temporary sales tax hike and she thought it was necessary in the voters said it was ok one time. would you push for a temporary tax hike of any kind if the education funding became a burden? >> i will not raise taxes. we will fund k-12 education. we can do this. i am looking at this for the

next fiscal year. we have to kickstart the economy. there is only one candidate at the table that has been endorsed by the arizona chamber of commerce and the national federation of independent businesses. these are business and job creators origin small. the way to grow the economy is to reform the tax code and simplify it too late in regulation and make burdens ess. >> i think you have to be on her -- honest with voters about the choices. this is 40% of the budget. it means cut. medicaid is voter protected. if you want to see income tax, you will cut education. >> i have been candidate. i center like to improve the tax code. i think we should simplify our ax code, flatten it.

my opinion is it is the viewers money. they have earned it and i want them to keep more of it. we can go in a better direction with the tax code but it will take time. it will take a growing economy and a more effective government. you proposed $4 billion in additional spending. you said you won't raise taxes. >> that is a ridiculous notion. what i am saying is we have -- we should enforce the voters decision that we pay back the schools for the cuts we took. you want to appeal it and defy the order. >> looking forever a opportunity. -- for an opportunity. you opposed it. >> i am not for tax increases. >> every opportunity you have had, you have been on the other side. >> i have sat on the board for teach for america, the school

board at arizona state university. i want to spend the dollars responsibly and get them to the classroom. not just blow more money. >> enough. quit it. >> a spirited debate. what we have to talk about is redefining education in arizona. the nation is down there in the world. we used to be number one. i think a lot of it is they have gotten us away from the competitive schools. that is the hallway innovation comes into play. i am sure we will talk about common core at some point. it is really not about the money. it is about restructuring. we sought tuition in the college going up incredibly. how did that translate to the students cap geoeye think a more ubiquitous education is a lot smarter. m.i.t. started it.

the distance learning. showing you can get a far better education than brick-and-mortar counterparts without the spreading of disease, bad behavior come logistics of security and the other stuff that comes with government schools. >> the idea. you better have a lot of connections to make up for hundreds of millions of dollars every year. >> actually, i do. i believe this will take people with the dream of a business, the dream of growing the existing business and put them into the five-year plan where they can go public if they would like to and retire. my plan is that solid and that's good. as far as the industries, the hemp industry, we need to legalize hemp. it is a product that replace everything from rubber to fiber class. that is huge.

that is an industry well into the trillions of dollars. lex you think the idea of putting a tax on marijuana sells? >> legalizing cannabis. we should do that as well. >> the arizona property rate higher than the national average and the poverty graft -- poverty ap is growing. our job recovery is not what the national average is. hat is going on out there? this should weigh on all of us. we want to point out who these people are. these are seniors, single mothers and children and unacceptable. my commitment is to serve all so that we can have a better future. the away -- way to do this is to have an economy where it is growing. and hanging out help wanted signs and where companies look to arizona as the perfect place or which to do business.

i am tired of politicians talking about job creators rhetorically. i want to go to california and bring businesses here. people are leaving chicago. businesses are going to indiana, florida, and texas. let's bring them to arizona. >> what do you think is the reason the poverty rate is higher than the national average and job recovery rate is lower? >> the poverty rates are going down in the rest of the country and going up and arizona. that is why i started by saying we're headed in the wrong direction. increasingly what i hear from businesses looking to relocate if they look at the tax rate and think verizon has made a lot of progress. they look at the regulatory environment and say arizona is not bad. then they get to the core question, will the employees have the talent i need to be successful? will the employees and might employees children have good

schools to go to cope we have to be able to answer that question and show a commitment to our school. these cuts that have resulted in 500 classrooms. the largest classrooms in the united states. we're not making the assurances that business needs to see from s. >> you have talked about tax cuts repeatedly. he growth is zero. they have a budget deficit about as high as it is in the nation. schools closing and classes closing. is that what we want? >> let's talk about texas, florida, comparative states where people are already moving to. we know how to educate a child. three of the top 10 high schools in the country. no other state has that bragging right. standing 10 billion dollars to educate just over one million schoolchildren.

in many places we know how to do it well, but for the past decade there has been a decreasing percentage of resources going to the classroom to support our eachers. that is going in the wrong direction. i want to see every available dollar supporting teachers teaching and student learning. that is where you make the difference. >> can you compare arizona with texas or florida or kansas when it comes to low or zero income taxes? >> my plan calls for eliminating on the moral basis. even if they come with a gun and say it is for the children. so how do we raise the money cap coke i have moved it to a transaction tax. combined with a single tax on businesses. 4% on the gross. no deductions. that will create the environment to bring the jobs here and money here.

we cannot have politicians picking and choosing who they will visit. we have to create an atmosphere where we are business friendly and open and honest. along with that, we have to fund education. i think we have gone overboard trying to teach all of our students everything about every job when in fact we should narrow the focus to be able to learn the school -- skills so they can master that and allow the corporations to come in and then further the education for hat they specific we need. it makes better sense to pinpoint the education at that point than trying to teach everyone everything in a government school. >> you have the property tax that is different as well. can you compare or mers honor to texas and florida? kansas sitting out there like a sore thumb.

>> i do not think any of them compare. they'll have different states and have different geographical differences. states do not compare. students do not compare. the tax code cannot compare because they have different needs and wants. i can tell very clearly how we can take anyone at the table who wants to create their own job, cold stone, id telling exactly where it comes from. the water company? yes. detail exactly where the money ill come from. take you to be in a global company if you want. >> i think it is more important to get government out of the way. we saw in california with a repealed one law and created 1000 businesses in three days. that is how government creates businesses, by getting out of it the way.

>> i think kansas is a warning sign to avoid race to the bottom and the complete collapse in the bond market. getting new ratings, this investing in schools. employers are concerned they will not have the workforce they need. schools have taken massive cuts. we want to stop the cuts and get back to investing in our children's future. >> the big spenders want to take one year and become an alarmist. nine states have a better, more preferable tax code. not only are we comparable to places like wyoming and new hampshire, we are competitive. states compete and governors compete. these companies are leaving and have -- and looking for a place to go. a great place to live, work, play, retire and visit and in many places, get an education. we have to stop the blame arizona first mentality.

i will talk to leaders and influencers and we will drive the economy in the right direction. >> i hear what you're saying and keep hearing how the cornea is the double on the west coast. they are always at the top of job creation. always at the top of wages. companies are moving to california to benefit from a variety of things that seems like an arizona we're still debating on. things like education and uch. >> california is driving people and producers out. this is not a well-run state. the largest growth has been met migration from california and illinois. it is a beautiful state and has been incredible innovation but they are doing everything they can to kill the golden goose. for the next decade until they straighten that direction out, the governor should take full advantage.

i visited a company last week that had moved here from california. they could not take the tax burden or quality of life. >> how do you explain the fact california still leads in job creation and the other metrics? >> they have an innovation-based economy. the gifts that keep going because they are going after 21st century innovation. silicon valley and i.t., etc.. that is the connection we need to it -- need to commit. the idea we can be texas or nevada -- they simply capture the revenue someplace else. i do not know whether doug is proposing a property tax or a sales tax. if you're going to repeal, you will cut k-12 education or you will raise taxes someplace else. >> that is a distortion of my record.

we know the model state is california. my model state is texas. rick perry retires in november 2014. texas has led the nation in economic development, business relocation. i want to be the next overnor. i believe arizona can leave the way. >> i did not say we should follow california. what i said is investing and each -- investing in education has worked across the country. time for us to make sure our children have the skills to succeed in life. your proposal to cut education. >> i am saying i would settle the lawsuit that i want to see the dollars go into the classroom. i have no power to settle a lawsuit. >> you would be all right if the lawsuit was settled? >> i would much rather pay teachers the moyers.

that base suit is important. i want to make sure we can be responsible going forward. this is a hypothetical. i would like to settle this and put the appropriate amount of money into education. any cheap executive when asked, where are the money's being spent and had we best serve teachers and children? >> i would settle the lawsuit. i want to negotiate the baseline. the baseline is important. i would sit down. i am open-minded to the settlement. i want to see us have a smaller baseline to protect the budget going forward. you have $4 billion. >> if that is the math, at least at my house that delivers a buck or two under my sons pillows.

at your house lately than i owe you. it will not be money left with the amount of spending you have in front. >> may stroke lost his tooth last week and i assure you he got his money. >> we have to be look -- careful ooking for job creation. the jobs are very short term. they get a lot of them because of legislation. they are not long-term high-paying jobs. >> the circus is going round. as opposed to standing outside waiting to get a ticket. >> it requires higher taxes and higher education. is that an option? >> not with me. if we are picking states, i am picking arizona. i believe it would be successful if we did not have party

politics getting in the way. someone with a good idea should not need to drive -- bribe someone to get a vote to make something good happen for our state. for the past two years that is all we have had. >> john is right. we have seen the border issue. since 1980 the border issue has been exactly the same. the same is true of education. we have to really step back and take an intelligent look at reshaping our government and how it interacts with the people. i think it is critical. >> with the way everyone is talking, i am amazed anyone lives in arizona. it seems like 70 or 80% of the hands go up. eople are moving here. we need to maximize the population growth to economic

development, job creation, and win more companies coming here. it is very doable. the chief executive for this can make it happen. >> we hear a lot about this, getting government out of the way. cutting income taxes come of corporate taxes. republicans have been in power for quite a while now. when are we going to get the rizona turnaround? >> when you get the governor who will break the tie and take sensible action based on the ideas, not the party. i am literally the only one who can walk the aisle without fear of political repercussions. i have brought all the groups last year together in a historic moment over 35 years and 35 tries in putting forward a citizens referendum on some of the most egregious flaws that

had ever been devised trying to steal the election. we turned it back and make them eat it. it took everyone from the super liberals and super conservative and was the only one who could bring it together. >> i am the other guy. the one who has no ties and does not care about a political life. i am the guy that has the plans written down. let's just say i am not elect it. will everyone agree to at least hear me out on this plan, because it is the only thing that will save arizona right now. legalizing hemp would be a great lus. >> people badmouthing arizona, negative image of arizona. what is arizona's image around the country? we are the but of joke on some programs but people keep moving here. >> i love arizona.

i love eric -- every part. we have opportunity to remind the rest of the country how innovative we are, how much we are a startup economy and what their grades economy this is to start businesses and grow. we have to answer the questions if we're going to get the job growth we have had in the past and want in the future. xd you think verizon has an image of intolerance? >> i do not. i think we have real issues but i think whenever you have a state where so many people have moved here from all across the country, you place that is warm and welcoming and optimistic were good things can happen. there have been folks that have communicated issues that i would do differently. that is what i talk about when i say i want to take charge in the direction of the state. arizona one candidate who is known and loved around the country. i think of arizona in many ways as a blank slate.

i want to communicate this out. >> you think there is no reason to attempt to repair the image that so >> i think we have to go forward. we were here in 1995 when they were here. i would say it was worse. it is not that we did not get the super bowl, the nfl took it away. we will have it in january where the eyes of the world will be focused on the state. nothing like a new governor to set a new tone and new direction. >> i think 10-50 two did do damage to the reputation. -- 10-62 did do damage to the eputation. they are bad for describing who e are. we are a tolerant place. we need to celebrate our diversity and grow with the diversity and make sure we are communicating place where talent can succeed.

>> when you -- would you look at it again echoplex i said i would be told that. i said with any issue i will bring people to the table. i said this is democrats sitting state legislator catherine aranda has joined my ampaign. i am reaching across the isle to show i will do what is in the best interest. my campaign is about opportunity for all. you can tell a lot by how someone will govern either campaign. that is something you want to continue to broaden. this is just like i have been listening to parents and teachers across the state. >> my coalition includes hundreds of republicans. it included 20 some republican elected officials with whom i worked. democratic governor with republican legislature.

we did the groundwater coat. some of the greatest i partisan achievements, we were growing and succeeding in a bipartisan collaborative way. i have carried that through my life. i am a problem solve or and can demonstrate my capacity to reate collaboration. >> i can see a problem with that in saying bipartisan. there are more than two. the air against is pervasive. when you were talking about the reputation of arizona, i think most people separate the more colorful personalities from arizona it self a cousin to hear from all of us it is a great place. we have great weather. business is not so much. we have to get kids who can learn. that is why i said let's go to a competency test. that would make more sense. we do not care for once make

sure you are educated. so you can work on them without he whole blanket idea. i think we have to bring them here with the idea we will do something bold, different and enjoyed seeing arizonans. you bring your own dam schools here and teach the kids what they need to know to work for you. >> your investment ideas, can they work if arizona does not have a strong enough image that attracts businesses? >> yes, because they are to be based on arizonans becoming the people they want to be. >> not all one to sit around living on minimum wage or welfare. there are millions that one to get to work, create the jobs. thought-frank now blocked anyone from investing in the business. we need to get beyond that and work above and be crossed -- and cross.

>> going to immigration ideas. the governor says no drivers license for those with a deferred status. the rule of law has to be applied at some point. is that valid? >> 48 states allow them. i think we should join with the rest of the nation. these dreamers have been raised here, successful here and have served in the military. it is in our interest that they be all they can be. that they be as successful as they can be. it will be the first thing i do as governor, to repeal the prohibition. it is important for public afety reasons. this has been a dismissive way of treating members of the community and it is bad olicy. >> i think we need to step back and look at how we got here.

the discussions around border security and immigration is not just one party's fault. there is enough lame to go around. this is the federal government that has not paid attention to the first duty to arizona. i have agreed with the governor's decision because i will have respect and compassion or everyone. i do not think anyone gets the privileges and benefits of hard-working arizona families that are paid for by a hard-working arizona taxpayers. we are a nation of immigrants and lost. >> critics say it is a mean-spirited move and counterproductive. >> i say to the federal government am a what are you doing on the southern border? we have a state that has a wide open and unprotected border, and this has been going on for years. we have agents by the thousands that are in the states but not

inside the border counties. i would like to see us be able to work not only with county sheriff's and law enforcement agency we can address the very real issues and then deal with the other issues around immigration. not mean-spirited and counterproductive? >> i want to start with border ecurity. >> it is counterproductive in mean-spirited. it is bad economic policy. we want to make sure these dreamers can fully contribute to economic growth in the success. it is really important we give them the tools to succeed. >> do you think they should be deported? >> i have never said that. i said i am for opportunity for all, and that is the type of governor i want to be but i have talked about the priority for how i would like to see this issue unfold. >> at some point, no deportation.

>> i somewhat start with the poor patient. >> i have had the opportunity to travel. you can get insurance for crying out loud. people are still going to drive but they will drive uninsured. that is a big issue these days. not just the dreamers either. anyone should be able to come here on a visitors pass. if they want to work, find and we can tag them with 5% for non-nationals working here to go to a fund to take care of education, medical care and whatever they want. let them do that for access to our markets. that is where the distinctions have to be made. government, unfortunately, it does not run like a business. hat is what becomes scary. you have to know how to spend money.

with of business you have to know how to make money. >> government needs to be from fica government but protect the businesses. you cannot run it like a business because there is no profit. we need to break even. we are not doing that because we need businesses to exist to pay n the taxes. the property taxes for the business on property that is not normally taxed. >> the idea of running government like a business, does that sound palatable to you? something government should look harder at? >> there are elements that apply to government but a different function. in the business of public safety in creating a climate. there is no question you want to bring accountability measures. i've propose an entirely new unding system. holding them more accountable for output for graduation. these are applicable to us.

>> i asked the question because as mrs. are in the business of making profit. can you really run a government like a business? >> government is not a usiness. as mrs. are intended to grow and make a profit. what you can do is there are business principles like paying the proper attention to the eople for which it serves. being accountable, living within our means. when you are in a business setting, a budget means something. in government often times it doesn't. the business principles -- paying attention and serving in this case not the customer for the taxpayer i think are the best principles of government that you can add from the usiness community. >> do arizona voters deserve to know who is paying for the advertisement attacking you and

you have to do we deserve to know that? >> yes. i wish there was full disclosure. i issued a dark funny challenge to all the candidates it joining me in calling out the funding. no one took me up on the offer. this has become very corrosive to our ability to have an exchange of ideas between the candidates taken over by folks that are nameless and aceless. do not live here and do not know the candidates. >> how do you find out the names and faces? >> they should be disclosed. we should have state and federal laws that require the disclosure. they are not going underway -- away. the best we can do, get them to be a part of the public assess. >> i would like to see more transparency. i think it is interesting that

fred says that. you are not the money man. the same organization running these advertisements, you collected the money to buy the advertisements in your past areer. i am curious as to your position now. >> millions of dollars spent to attack me. millions of dollars. before that you did that with christine jones. you have been succeeding in the process by tearing down the opponents. i think you should stop it. this is about creating an affirmative agenda. >> this has been a positive, optimistic pro-job creation message. am new to politics. people know what i have done with my career. i have been selling ice cream, you have been peddling influence.

like you know my background. it is completely open. you sold the business and it is a closed file. like i think the voters deserve to know whether or not you are accused of ms. -- misrepresentation. were you accused of material misrepresentation cap go >> the people who purchase cold stone creamery said there was complete satisfaction that i built a great company. >> what you have not done is calling about transparency. >> would you disclose your list of clients as a lobbyist cap go >> sure. they are on your tv advertisements. you have done full opposition esearch. i would like to know what happened in the arbitration and whether or not you will answer the question if you were accused? >> there was complete satisfaction. > come on now.

when we talk about dark money, talking about money that is not supposed to be correlated with campaigns. i would think there would be a great penalty if any of the groups, if they did coordinate it would disqualify the candidate and make it something serious. even more so, there is dark money and friends of god and everybody. it is like the debates we were excluded from on channel 10 and 12. that is in-kind advertising for republicans and democrats. that is all it is. that is as dark as it gets. >> when it comes to the advertisements that are attacking these gentlemen -- shouldn't we be able to know who is behind the advertisements? >> we know who is behind them. democrats and republicans. >> we could probably find out the individual. they are tied to parties.

that is where the trouble comes from. that is where it will stay. >> that's move on. access. expansion/restoration. did arizona do the right thing? >> the governor and the legislature have done what they have done. i have spoken out aggressively against obamacare. i think it is a disaster and onumental failure. as our governor 1512 focus on is the budget situation so we are spending the proper dollars to restore education and move the economy in the right direction. i am not a fan of any expansion of government. what we have is a three year guarantee from the federal government. something next governor will have to look for ways to improve and reform. my ideas are more price transparency and health savings account.

>> so if the legislature passed a repeal, what would you do? >> it is a hypothetical. if you look at the budget, my first job will be protecting arizona taxpayers. because we have the guarantee from the federal government, i think we would not want to do hat. >> i think the opportunity i would like to dive in on this is for reform. everyone wants to have access to a superior health care system. i just do not think the federal government has done a good job in delivering it. >> you said the government did what they did. >> i said i am running on the issues of the future. i would have wanted to tinker. some of these have gone for block grants. innovative and inventive. i think it was not delivered. dairy difficult decision.

she was the leader. i have said what i said. >> this is certainly coming. a legislature that is certainly oming. the next governor will have to make a decision whether to repeal or not. doug was for it and then against it. now one is done is done. so it is a little unclear. i have had one position. it is a national best ractice. extremely proud of the ipartisan coalition. receiving the first waiver of its kind that enabled us to do this very successful model. the bipartisan team of legislators and governor who put it together were correct to repeal it. it will devastate health care. not hundreds of thousands off the hill -- out of your help -- help care. >> we have an access program

here second to none. everyone wants to get in access, and unfortunately they are. it becomes a real burden to the taxpayers. would like to see the taxpayers absorbing the risk of being alive like we used to. i think that would be smart. when you do have to scale back access, it is not a plus to say it is growing and expanding. ike a welfare program. his is an abysmal failure. we do not want people on the government dole or depending on government, because like we saw with welfare cards, we shut down for a week and then it drove people into a panic. i want to see in arizona where we get back to the responsibility.

take care of ourselves and encourage others to do that so when the power goes out, we have a battery pack that we do not go out. we are not just try to hold onto the past but see what we have now. >> we can do better. access has its problems right now. my wife has cancer. certain treatments cut off transient. that is where we're sitting. we cannot deal with that type of the system. e can do better. that explains how we can get the best insurance for every arizona and plus some. >> it is not insurance or health care. >> i think it should be health care. i saw the arguments which to left give everyone insurance. i want to revitalize the county hospital program so people are

not dying in the street. it is not government first on stability to ensure them? >> more people are uninsured right now. hospital getting two more tenable situation. is that a bad thing. >> my concern is what happens over the course of time. that is why i talk about a health-care system putting the patient in charge of the doctor elationship. i think there is a lot of opportunity for improvement in american health care. i think we have the best system in the world but not the best distribution system. what we have seen is a redistribution of insurance benefits. i think we can do better. there are many doctors refusing to take access. why do we want to put more people on an insurance program

that doctors do not want to accept. >> is this a penny wise and pond thing good now but watch out later? >> i think the circuit breaker after three years. i'm very confident the federal away innt will not walk its commitment. is very ursement rate high. if they don't after three years breaker.the circuit we have a 90% reimbursement rate. there is arizona taxpayer money that will go to the states round us that took the opportunity to do restoration. >> did fred just say he is very that the federal government will not walk away from its commitment? > we have the circuit breaker and i think that we need to move it, doug.nd not repeal >> i just don't think the federalov