for many of the communities that are currently affected, the day a person dies is the most important day of that person's life. that's the day when the spirits move from the person into friends and relatives into the community. the day of death must be treated with proper respect and ritual. otherwise it undermines the very fabric of society. yet people who are dying of ebola are very dangerous. if they're touched, and if they're held at that moment of death, they can infect large numbers of other people, because their bodies are toxic. heir bodies contain the virus. it's often on the surface of their bodies.

so, unfortunately, the time of death has proved to be a time when the virus tends to spread very widely. and in order to get control over the virus, people are having to change the ways in which they handle illness and handle death and to move away from traditions that are centuries old. this has been a major difficulty for many of the societies that are affected. and it's really only in the last few weeks, thanks to the courage of the leaders of the countries concerned, that there's been a much greater emphasis on people coming to terms with and owning the disease and changing their behaviors so that they're less likely to spread the disease.

another phenomenon that's occurring is that when people get the disease, they get scared. and they tend to run to people who they think can help them -- traditional healers, centers of faith, or even friends and relatives. and that, in turn, leads to the movement of sickness and the disease into new communities, new chains of transmission. and that has led to the widespread dissemination of the disease and the virus. third point. the then, do we respond as disease spreads? well, we have to recognize it's spreading very rapidly. probably doubling in numbers of cases every three to four weeks. and that means a huge provision of treatment facilities for people with the disease, a

great increase in community centers, a lot of work with societies to help them respond to the disease, and others to help them get prepared. a massive social mobilization on an enormous scale. not just in the most affected countries but in neighboring countries as well. and indeed throughout the world. and it's going to scale so that everybody knows about the disease, knows how to prevent it, knows where treatment is available, involves thousands of health workers from all over the world, thousands of community mobilizers, and hundreds of people to help construct centers and staff them and make sure they're roperly supported. it's going to scale perhaps increasing level of response 20 times greater than it was at the beginning of this month.

it involves just about every country in the world, certainly every donor agency in the world. many nongovernmental organizations all working in support of the president's and people -- presidents and people of the affected country. without that mass mobilization, without the global movement, it will be impossible to get this disease quickly under control and the world will have to live with the ebola virus forever. and that's why your leadership and the leadership of the security council, the leadership of the president's, the leadership of the chair of the african union, the leadership -- i'd like to particularly single out the decisive role played by the secretary general of the united nations in recent weeks gives me some hope that we now have

the mechanism to bring together all the different partners to scare up action and to achieve results rapidly. we will continue to need and request resources from all of nurses, to and come in as teams to help start treatment centers -- airplanes, helicopters, vehicles, motor bikes, boats to provide the transportation necessary for logistic systems that go deep into the villages and the ownships of the affected countries and also provide propose rye tri expertise into neighboring country. we'll continue to ask you for cash because this is an expensive job. because it requires contracts and arrangements that have to get the now so we can scale up as quickly as possible and that is why we're super

grateful to everybody for contributing to the trust fund. the last point about the virus can find its way through defenses especially if there are holes in defenses. it can find its way often inside the body of infected people into transportation systems if there are not strong defenses there. it can find its way from village to village and town to town if people are frightened and not provided with proper care. and that's why we are seeking to encourage all who are respond tog come together in a coalition which will be facilitated by the united nations. deputy secretary general, which will help all of us to work together knowing what each other is doing and keeping regularly informed. this is the most extraordinary

challenge that the world could possibly face. you sometimes see films about this sort of thing and you imagine how could such a thing happen? this is more extreme than any film i have ever seen. this is a real challenge to all of us that is going to require every piece of ingenuity and collective action that we can ount to work to respond to it. because the enemy in this case a virus, tiny, microscopic thing, is invisible to our eyes and many of us don't understand it. we have to be prepared to respond to whatever it brings to us. i thank you for making this possible. hank you, sir. >> special envoy of the secretary general on ebola, we

thank you for your briefing. i now give the floor to mr. anthony banbury, special representative and head of the nited nations mission on ebola who is joining us via video onference. >> mr. president of the general assembly, mr. deputy secretary excellencies, distinguished delegates. thank you for giving me the opportunity to brief you today on the activities of the united nations mission for ebola emergency response. i am grateful to you mr. president for your leadership on the ebola crisis and for convening this section and for ensuring that the response to fighting the ebola epidemic remains on top of the global

agenda. i also wish to thank dr. margaret chan director general of the world health rganization and all of the u.n. agencies and funds and programs for their support both in terms of material and personnel. since the establishment on 19 september and its immediate and welcomed endorsement by the general assembly, the secretary general made clear his ex-paeth ations -- expectations that the united nations system move rapidly and decisively in responding to the ebola crisis. we have been moving swiftly on a number of fronts. my colleague dr. nabarro has detailed his efforts in building a global coalition to respond to this disease. he and i are working together closely. dr. nabarro is leading the international effort to garner support for the fight.

with the help of multi lateral and bilateral partners, we're concentrating on operational crisis response activities on the ground. both planks are integral to comprehensive strategies to fight the disease. following my appointment by the i deployed neral, to the region with a small but growing team regarding the mission. i am particularly grateful to the government of ghana which has immensely facilitated the work of the mission. in rapid succession i have visited the three most affected countries, liberia, sierra leone, and guinea for two days each. i went on the trip to listen, learn, and to identify areas where anmir can be most helpful and find ways in which it can accelerate the response to the crisis. i met there with president johnson of liberia, the

president of sierra leone and with the president of guinea. i also met with government ministers and officials, civil society actors, civil society actors, women's groups, ngo's, the u.n. country teams, and the diplomatic community. i had the opportunity to visit two ebola treatment centers, one holding center for patients as well as the w.h.o. training center. my first-hand impressions were vivid and deeply worrying. we saw how brave, tired, and immensely dedicated national and international health workers are carrying on under extremely difficult circumstances. over 230 of these health workers have died in liberia alone. we saw people and resources stretched to the limit with more being done with less than can be considered acceptable. we saw families grieving for lost ones but also fearing for their own health. we saw patients being turned

away for lack of beds at the facilities. we saw a woman lying dead in a street unattended. the human response is to care, to empathize, to pay respect to the departed. with ebola this type of response can be fatal. to defeat the virus, we will have to change behavior. excellencies, the consequences are is disease catastrophic. in order to fight it unmeer shall be guided by the following principles. first, our top priority is to keep our staff healthy without which no effort shall be possible. second, we must support national efforts and national leadership. unmeer must k of not duplicate national plans

and, four shall the response of this mission must be tailor made to each country and to meet circumstances. above all, unmeer's focus in all our individual and collective efforts will be on bringing this crisis to an end as soon as possible. and as soon as our task is completed, unmeer will close its doors. we must also concentrate on prevention and preparedness in other countries. preventing transmission to and within other countries will be a critical component of unmeer's mission. collectively we must stop the spread to other countries and ensure that countries are prepared to rapidly detect, control, and eliminate the virus if it is introduced. for all of these efforts we shall collaborate closely with the african union, the union of african states, and the union. i had an opportunity to meet with the head of the au support

to ebola outbreak operation two days ago. i commend the african union's deployment of health workers to fight this disease and i hope that others will follow their lead. mr. president, excellencies, allow me to present some of the findings and conclusions at the initial phase of the mission's deployment. the crisis caused by the outbreak of ebola is severe and unprecedented. the world has never seen anything like it. time is our enemy. the virus is far ahead of us. and every day, every day the situation gets worse. almost 3,900 people in seven countries have died. the ebola epidemic is not just a health crisis. it is a complex, multi dimensional crisis in two main ways. first, it is having a brad

impact on the societies where there is an outbreak. it kills people. it destroys health systems. it harms economies. it disrupts education systems, food security, and livelihoods. the three most impacted countries have recently shown some of the highest economic growth rates not just in africa but in the entire world. now the growth rates may be hambd or even more in the course -- halved or even more in the course of a year. second, the response necessary to end the crisis requires intense efforts across multiple sectors not just health, such as logistics and perhaps even more importantly social mobilization as dr. nabarro was talking about. there are intricate complexities surrounding issues such as burials. many people in the affected countries still live in denial

that ebola is real. many resist changing age old practices. in such scenarios science can help but it is insufficient. we must understand and respect different cultural values, social practices, and find solutions that on one hand protect people from infection while on the other will be accepted by the affected communities and families and individuals. in my short time in the region, it is clear that one of the greatest needs is comprehensive crisis management. much good work has been done since march by national governments, united nations agencies, ngo's, but it has been a patchwork of good work. the crisis needs to be managed like the complex multi dimensional regional crisis it is not just as a health crisis. excellencies, the challenge is

immense. unmeer's work began only two weeks ago. we are late but it is not too late still to fight and win this battle. unmeer has deployed to four countries. we have deployed staff, vehicles, planes, helicopters, and communications capabilities. we are moving resources to where they are needed most, with strong support from u.n. agencies. this is what unmeer will do. we shall support national leadership and national ownership. we shall play the role of crisis manager and not just coordinator. our heads of missions in the three affected countries are ebola crisis managers. we shall work with host governments to make sure there is a comprehensive plan in place to stop ebola. each necessary line of action will be identified and each action will be assigned to an organization with clear timelines and clear accountability.

we shall fill gaps. we shall support that which needs supporting but we shall not be the only player in fighting this fight. everyone must play their part. most importantly, we shall work with a wide range of partners, anyone who can make a contribution to ending the crisis. the crisis is unprecedented and requires an unprecedented, creative, rapid response to bring it to a close. our priority shall be to accelerate action. to achieve results fast, we must have your and the world's support. in particular, first the highest priorities are ebola treatment centers with skilled managers and medical personnel. second we need diagnostic laboratories. and aid agencies need financial support. it just can't be that aid agencies willing to contribute

to this effort are unable to do he so for lack of financial resources. we need reliable methods in place to if necessary treat and evacuate any personnel working on the crisis. i would like to add here that the crisis faced by the country should not be compounded by isolation. countries and airlines should maintain open links with the affected countries and the region so we isolate the buyers and not the country. let me take this opportunity to thank the general assembly for its rapid approval of the budget until 31 december, 2014. as i noted earlier, when this crisis is over, up unmeer will close but the united nations agencies, funds, and programs, and other partners will have much work to do in supporting the countries affected recover from the crisis to help them build structures and resilience so they never again fall victim

to such a disaster. even no as we focus on the emergency we need to be incorporating early recovery and long-term needs into our efforts. mr. president, excellencies, the ebola crisis is an emergency of profound consequence and grave risk. there is no other way to describe it. like special envoy nabarro mentioned, in my career, not as long as his, but nonetheless a long one facing many crises, i have never seen such a terrible, difficult challenge. the world must now act to help the people and government of liberia, sierra leone, and guinea. by helping them, to help the rest of the world. a failure to act now while we have the chance could lead to unpredictable but very dire consequences. for the people of the countries

and well beyond. as long as there is one case of ebola in any one of these countries, no country is safe from the dangers posed by the deadly virus. unmeer is on the ground and we are committed to doing our job. we are doing it now. but unmeer cannot do this alone. neither can any single country or actor. we need a broad, global secretary the general, the deputy secretary general, and dr. nabarro have called for. the whole world must contribute and each country should contribute what it can. is only by working together and fast and inventively that we can end this crisis. we must rise to the occasion. we must defeat this disease. thank you. >> the special representative of the head of the united nations mission for ebola, i

thank him for his briefing. i re proceeding further, several e to welcome .embers the minister of sierra leone, joining us today by video conference. the give the floor to minister of health on social elfare of liberia. >> thank you. mr. president of the general assembly, and the deputy secretary general, thank you

people on behalf of my resident for organizing this special assembly to address ebola. i have listened very carefully to the statements by mr. nabarro and anthony banbury and i have here listening with me the person wh has been appointed by the united nations to help us fight this in the country in the person of peter glass. incident e with me my manager for ebola incident. let me go again to say that i have listened very carefully to david nabarro and to anthony and what they have said has

clearly described the situation in our country and the need that we have so i do not need to go over those things again. i do want to say however that ebola has exposed in liberia a weak health system we were trying to build. ebola is a bump in the road of our programs but when it is over we don't want to have a big ditch at the end of it or behind it. the information i seem to get says that we are coming to get rid of ebola. i want to remind you people, in a us, that ebola is system that should be left stronger when ebola is over. therefore, when i see people

say we want to get rid of ebola , i'm saying to myself, no. and it is a beginning to help us to build that has been em damaged so badly by ebola. our countries have been devastated not only the health system but the economic system. many of our people that were helping us to get funding to do different things in our countries have left. companies have slowed down and some have left the country. we will be finish beginning to rebuild. so i want to thank all of you, the united nations and all the organizations that are helping of w, the united states

america with bringing in more than 3,000 soldiers to build and to help us, the african union, the west african organization, all of you. there are many, many people including the international ngo's, all of these people now are celebrating the fight that e have been trying to move out of and we are very appreciative of this but i want to say thank ou but i want to say you are not just fighting ebola. you are helping a health system that has been weak to get rid of ebola and when ebola is finished the health system wants to remain stronger. that should be our goal to leave behind a strong health system. i appreciate david nabarro, whom i have met, who has committed to something like this.

i was not in the city when they came to liberia but i am seeing him for the first time and i appreciate what they are doing ut please, please, please. leave behind a strong health system. don't get rid of ebola and run. thank you. >> i thank the minister for social welfare of liberia. now give the floor to his excellency for five minutes for presentation on sierra leone. >> thank you very much, mr. president. your excellency, president of the u.n. general assembly, excellencies, let me first and foremost turn to the president of the 69th u.n. general assembly for completing this session to share information on

the west african ebola outbreak. since the first case of the disease in sierra leone in may this year, well over 2,500 people have been affected in our country alone. also, over 500 have lost their lives. most of the infected are women and children. over 2/3 of those affected belong to the most economically active age category of 15 to 50. while we have made some progress in the fight against this scourge with your support, yet, significant challenges still remain. one, we still face challenges in cases because of a weak surveillance and -- a weak health system.

two we face challenges in moving cases from their communities to management centers due to logistics constraints like lack of ambulances. three, we are still not in a position to hospitalize all the infected people due to shortage of bed space. four, our laboratories are too few in numbers. as a result, we are still not work. catch up with the own centers are becoming bogged down. and families are anxiously waiting for results of the tests. five, we are still -- we have still not caught up with the burials. one of the most significant results of the infections.

six, there are still pockets of and remove fl r people. the communities. all those who are ineffected, addressing the issues, do efore, it's paramount to this fight. it is clear that all the ingredients for a full blown epidemic. until and unless we are in a all ofn to address ut -- the above challenges, we are far from the woods. and i want once more on behalf of the president, his government and people of sierra leone to express sincere thanks and

gratitude of the 69 u.n. general assembly. ebola is not a disease that we brought upon ourselves. we have implemented programs to help our people. the evidence is there for all to see. of the been rated as one fastest growing economies in the world. ladies and gentlemen, the ituation is still complex. it is a serious threat not only to our nation but to our economic development. we need your help. so please. now is the time for fast tracking the commitment into action on the ground.

we need to get ahead of this evil virus. for us, this is we must either win for winning is the only alternative we have. i'm hopeful with your support we hall win this fight. we have to ensure the survival of tens of thousands more, but this can only happen with the support of you. with your support. i thank you very much. >> i now give to the floor of the representative from guinea.

deputy esident, mr. , ladies and eral my delegation is grateful to you, mr. president, for the initiative you have ken to organize this meeting which comes from the will of the international community to spare

no efforts in order to find an urgent response to combating the ebola virus. mr. president, i would also like to thank the ministers of health as beria and sierra leone the as anthony for firsthand information they have ust provided through their briefings on the scope and the complexity of the multinational crisis. the health crisis and socioeconomic crisis being faced by the affected countries where

the illness is found. of course, the gravity of the situation as has been described by panelists, leaves no doubt the the vital need for international community to undertake urgent action in order to reverse the current trend. , at said, mr. president present, the time has come for specific actions. we need to act quickly, not only o suppress the spread of the disease and not only to save human lives while there's still time, but also and especially in

order to maintain stability and the gains of the last few years as part of peace building and ocial peace. for the u.n. mission to be deployed as quickly as possible so that it can respond effectively to the most pressing needs of the affected countries. in our opinion, this mission ould also help build local alth capacities, through

making available mobile hospitals, helicopters, protective vehicles and qualified medical workers in order to take care of sick people. therefore, let us hope that this mission will have a heavy dose of communication, that it will work to teach local populations more about best practices to be vanching ut also to wish the hesitation that was referenced a few minutes ago in the briefing. in this respect, we believe that the mission could use local radio to communicate our public

service message in the national languages of the countries affected in order to reach those eople who are still hesitating to believe the extent of the disease. >> i should also now call upon member states to honor as quickly as possible the commitments made and the promises of contributions that have been made. and in conclusion, mr.

president, i just would like to express a deep appreciation from my delegation and our government >> you can share your thoughts about the response to the ebola outbreak and answer the question we have posted there, are you confident in the u.s. response to ebola. several of you have weighed in n the issue.

>> this weekend on the c-span networks, tonight at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span, a memorial service for president reagan's press secretary james brady. on saturday night at 9:00 p.m. eastern, former secretary of state paul talks about world affairs. and sunday evening at 8:00, a marine in vietnam, a land mine explosion nearly killed him and changed his life. and tonight on c-span2, ralph

nader calls for an alliance between parties. saturday night at 10:00, surgeon and author on why he feels medical science should be doing more for the aging and dying. and sunday just after 7:00, a columnist on free market capitalism. tonight at 8:00 on american history tv on c-span3, occur ator of the c.i.a. museum talks about the agency's history. and saturday at 8:00 p.m. eastern, the king george's war andhe 17 40's how it helped gained experience for their own revolution. sunday night on the presidency, -- ford's rd congressional testimony. and let us know about the

programs you are watching. >> join the c-span conversation, like us on facebook. follow us on twitter. >> and monday, more campaign coverage with the kentucky senate debate between mitch mcconnell and alison grimes. here are some of the recent ads. >> after 30 years, who is doing better. mitch has voted himself six pay raises and joined $200,000 of special interests perks and travel and raised $70 million. here at home, incomes are down. and lost over 43,000 manufacturing jobs. sure seems mitch has washington working for him. >> i'm mitch mcdonnell and i

approve this message. >> alice son grimes said it is not about her support for barack obama and his failed policies. >> i'm not barack obama. >> but obama said a vote for alison is a vote for his policies. >> i'm not on the ballot this fall, but make no mistakes, these policies are on the ballot. >> obama needs grimes. and kentucky needs mitch mcconnell. >> i'm alison grimes and i approve this message. >> he skipped hundreds of committee meetings, where was he? he didn't vote on the farm bill and the v.a. but found time for a lobbyist fundraiser and was on wo tv shows. and the rest of the time, he created gridlock. 30 years is long enough. >> the media call her ads false

and misleading, but alison grimes keeps attacking now on attendance. as a senate leader, mitch just doesn't serve on committees, he can appoint committee members making sure that kentucky's voice is heard. and for mcconnell's attendance, 99%. alison grimes, no experience, false and misleading attacks. i'm mitch mcconnell and i approve this message. >> we will have the debate live monday at 8:00 p.m. eastern. next, a look at domestic violence in the you and how it's handled by law enforcement.

>> how does the justice department define domestic violence? >> good question because many terms are used to describe domestic violence. domestic violence which includes violence against both males and females involving their spouse, ex-spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend. also, we measure violence in violence against other relatives. so it's a larger umbrellas of family violence and intimate violence and what drives a lot of that violence is the

relationship violence between intimates. host: is there a baseline for what violence is? does it take a specific physical act? guest: we include in our survey and homicide surveys, violence includes civil assault, aggravated assault, when a weapon is involved or serious injury to the person. rape, sexual assault and robbery. that is our spectrum. host: how many people, what percentage of the american public is involved in the domestic violence situation? guest: every year, we have, according to our survey, two million involved with vim timization. over time, this has declined. for the past 20 years, we have seen the rates decline almost 70%. >>

host: how did your organization get started? guest: it is a social change organization which began in 1994. we worked very hard on getting the initial violence against women act passed and it was formed by our 56 states and territorial coalitions. we look like a pyramid. we are here in d.c. and our 56 states and coalitions are here and right below them the 2,300 domestic violence programs and that serve victims. host: how did you get involved? guest: quite frankly, i was looking for a job and learned that the organization before the national network needed an attorney when i was in delaware and i was an attorney and became a very good marriage. and then the folks here in d.c.

asked me to come work with them. host: put the numbers up on the screen, divided by region of the country. if you would like to participate on our conversation please call the numbers below on your screen. ms. moore, who are the perpetrators of domestic violence? guest: they are primarily men, although the statistics range of the victims being men, depending on which survey you look at. there are a number of surveys that are out there and the good news is that they give us some consistent data which is that primarily women are victims of domestic violence. men are also victims sometimes.

when women are victimized, they are harmed much, much more more than men that are harmed. women report and need to go to shelters and hospitals. men don't report those consequences at the same high levels that women do. host: who is committing domestic violence? guest: if you are fixing something, you have to know what he cause is and we live in a culture and one of them is paternalism, undervalue of women in our society and germ promotion of violence. we are excited that we are now working with the national football league to address

violence, to address partner violence, because the nfl is such a culturally important entity in our society, we will have a great impact on the cultural shift. host: have you found that the nfl situation has raised awareness of this issue more than in the past? guest: absolutely. our office does a 24-hour survey every year. we call it our domestic violence census and what we know in that 24-hour period, had about 20,000 hotline calls. and when we have a national organization -- our national domestic violence hotline has about -- gets about 700 of those 20,000 calls a day. and both the national hotline

and all of the state and local hotline numbers picked up after the additional publicity that was given to that crime. host: michael, did you have something to add? guest: i'm fine. host: let's look at some of the statistics that the bureau of justice puts out. who commits domestic violence. guest: male victims and female victims. spouse, boyfriend, girlfriend. this includes more than intimate partner violence. for males, a significant amount of boyfriend and girlfriend and there are sibling and other relatives involved with the male violence. primarilyly female victims. host: is this an annual survey?

guest: we go to 15,000 households and interview them in person or over the phone repeatedly over a three-year period. host: more than half domestic violence was reported to police. guest: what you see is about 50% of violent crime, domestic violence is reported to the police. but you see there for serious violence, a greater percentage reported to the police and that's related to injury and weapon use. you see that consistently, not just with domestic violence but crime in general. host: paulette sullvay -- sullivan moore, you think more should be reported. why is it less than 60% of these crimes being reported? guest: those numbers are probably not very different for reporting of crimes across the country for any kind of crime. but particularly for domestic

violence crimes, it can be very difficult for a person to report. a person may not speak english, which can make reporting difficult. a person might live in a community where police officers aren't viewed as friends, which could make it difficult to report. they feel threatened, if you report this, i will kill you, i will kill the children, will take the children from you. when the person is committing the crime against you right there in the home, more difficult to report the crime. host: and there are specific reasons. with 30% felt they dealt it in another way. personal matter. so they didn't feel that police should be involved. more importantly, another 30% fear reprisal or didn't want to get the offender in trouble.

there is a relationship there, children, economic situations involved. and so we see consistently that these are the reasons that people tell us for not reporting. host: a call from california. george, you are on "washington journal." caller: i had a situation one time where a girlfriend beat me up and i was a victim of crime. and when i wept to try to get some counseling because they give you slip on the thing you get from the sheriff and i was there i think for about 30 minutes at the center down in bakersfield and then they called me the next day and said i wasn't eligible for the counseling as a victim. i found that to be kind of a

strange thing. host: did they tell you why you weren't able to get it? caller: no. host: how frequent is this female on male domestic violence? guest: 7% to 15% are victims are men and n.i.j. did a baseline study back in 2000 which tells us that most of the victimization of men is committed by men. the female-on-male is a much lower number. i'm not sure when this gentlemen -- gentleman sought help but the advocates are trained to make sure they understand the nature of the violence and sometimes unfortunately we run into a little bit of false reporting on the part of men just to test the

system to see if we are serving them. i hope that was not the situation here. but those advocates are trained to assess a person's need. and if a person needs counseling they will provide it regardless of gender of the person and it may well have been -- we serve in that 24-hour period -- in 2013, we served about 64,000 people but had to turn away more than 10,000 requests for service that year and those numbers run consistently every year. and maybe there weren't the counselingors available. host: are men less willing to report? guest: we do have some concern that men don't report to the police, but also to our survey because there is a stigma attached to it. they don't feel that it rises to a level of a crime or even a

physical violence and when they do report, they report more physical violence than threats or other types of violence. caller: i think this is a very significant issue and the issue for in my point of view is the other people who are victims of this domestic violence, mainly the children, in that in my case , i sought counseling late in life because -- and i was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress syndrome and when a child sees their parent being abused, they want to do something and really can't and lot of times they'll make phone calls and they don't have the right to ask for counseling or to ask what they need. and so i see it, my father was a

football player. he liggede to fight and one point in his life he said, i like to hurt people. and i think as you grow older, he felt bad a lot of things that happened but yet the damage was done to the children. ost: let's get a response. guest: you are absolutely right that damage is done to children. one of the things that's great about our program and services is we push congress for more and more money because we need to be able to serve children and there's not enough money to serve as i have been describing. there is not enough money to serve everybody and clearly not enough money to serve all of the children that need services and they all do. i can tell you that i remember, peter asked me why i started

doing this work and i frankly told him i needed a job. i discovered how much domestic violence had been in my own household and i remember trying to sneak down the steps in a middle of a fight to dial my aunt because my father was beating up my mother. and it was back in the day you had to dial phones. and i was dialing and i only had one more number to dial and my father had discovered that i went downstairs to the phone and ordered me back up to my room. so i wasn't able to help my mother. we need much, much more funding so children can understand what is happening, be able to receive assistance and we need more money to keep the protective parents safe. too often, the parent who is not the protective parent, if the

abusive parent seeks child custody, too often they get it. it is a horrible situation and requires us to have a lot more judicial training and to have a lot more training for custody evaluateors, attorneys, other people who interact with both domestic violence and child welfare issues. thank you for your question. host: did you feel you suffered from ptsd? children thrive and survive in different ways. i have never been diagnosed as having ptsd but i can understand janet having that and understand other children as they become adults recognize that those crippling behaviors by their fathers had seriesy negative impacts.

host: chris in maryland. caller: do you have a chart broken down by the races and do you also have a chart on economic status of how this breaks down? guest: we have it by demographics, and look across age, younger persons are much greater risk than older folks. and also we see that for race. american indians by far across all surveys have a very elevated risk for domestic violence and intimate partner violence and differences in blacks and whites versus hispanics. 20% higher for blacks compared whites and we see about 20% were less than whites. and look over time and see that

decline, different groups benefited from a larger decline than others. younger people had a much larger decline over the 20 years. hispanics also. also had about a decline based on gender. so when you are trying to understand this problem, to see who is potentially benefiting from various laws, legislation, trends are very important to provide context. host: what about the economic levels? guest: folks in the loir economic income levels tend to report higher rates of violence in general, domestic violence. there is a risk across the board. no one group is immune from domestic violence or intimate partner violence. guest: thank you for doing these

studies. we depend on them so much as we are talking to congress and other policy makers about what we need. when we speak about american indians, one of the important factors to note is that the people who are committing most of the crimes against native merican women are not native american men. we were able to include a provision that says if a non-native on or comes on or works native land and commits violence over a native american woman, the native american olice have jurisdiction. and that's what had been happening with our tribal laws nd our tribal -- our country

imposition on tribal laws. the other thing i would say one of the things that we've learned especially from our work with the jall state foundation, we have learned that it is easier for women -- not easier, but less of a barrier if you have some resources to extricate yourself from an abusive relationship. it doesn't make it easy but one less barrier. when women earn 87% less than white men and black women earn % less than black men and -- white men. if you have to hire a lawyer, if you have to find a new place to live when your resources are already compromised, that is an

additional barrier. host: caller from south carolina. caller: good morning. my son was a nurse in atlanta and he was killed about two years ago. his partner that the medical examiner would not look at the partner. i'm really frustrated. his partner killed himself a year later. and so that's all i have to say. host: are you saying that his partner killed him, domestic violence? caller: he was beaten up a day before and the medical examiner saw that. nd they did not even make an inquiry. they just said that my son died

of a broken heart. host: what ruin fering with this story, anything? caller: there is so much hatred out there for different aspects of life. host: was your son gay? caller: yes. i read an article, 46 people were killed by domestic violence in south carolina. have you looked at gay-straight, have you looked at that demographic? guest: very limited amount of information in the lgbt community. and what we know from the limited study, they are at greater risk for domestic violence and less likely to secretary services. because they just don't go there and other services. it's a double effect there. host: have you found evidence?

guest: my heart goes out to julia and i think it's important for us to remember that every human being's life is valuable regardless of who they love and it is unconscionable that someone would not do a complete investigation. my heart goes out to her and i prosecution er offices, other police departments, other medical examiner offices have an opportunity to hear what julia has described to us and understand that every criminal case needs to be investigated. i should add one of the things we were able to improve this last time is to specifically include that persons regardless of sexual orientation or gender, are to be given full civil rights in making certain that domestic violence is not a

scourge in any community. caller: i work with a domestic violence program in hawaii in the 1980's and after being arrested by the police and being sent to family court, they were in our program and i was a mediator with a woman, a six-month program every saturday for two hours, we would discuss what went on. and anger management, a number of things. also, the big thing was getting over their denial. the range in hawaii of people were the same. i had a japanese architect guy. so it happens everywhere. and the gay thing is also -- it's a human matter. i'm trying to get together with the owner of the ravens. and based there, because this is

a conversation that needs to be had. host: do you find that generations, evidence of that in your studies? guest: we know that the victim's report will say the offender has committed crimes against them multiple times and in court cases prosecuting, 50% of the offenders committed a crime against that victim previously. for a fatal violence, women that are murdered, they often have cases against hem. caller: i'm a divorce attorney and two points i would like to make. there was an opinion piece on june 25, 2014 which kathy young

wrote the piece and she indicated that she felt that statistics and studies indicate that violence of females against males. there was a study done in "the journal of family violence" which indicated as much. i believe your guests are kind of minimizing the violence that goes the other way, because it seems like they are focusing on male on female violence. and dating 40 years ago to a study in 1975, which indicated that women were more likely to be agressor in many of the domestic violence situations. number two, the woman guest that you have there indicated that defined violence as being a threat by the man that he was going to take away the children. if that is defined as domestic violence, speaking as a divorce

attorney who represents a lot of men in family law situations, i guess i would have to say 80% of women are therefore domestic violence perpetrators because that threat almost seems to be made. host: let's get an answer. guest: i think you misunderstood what i said whether or not a threat in and of itself to take children away is an act of domestic violence, i don't think i said that. you said most of your clients are male and what we know that is because men earn more, they are more able to hire attorneys. we also know that divorce attorneys only hear one side of the story, because again, most of their clients are male. i would encourage you wherever

you are to contact your state domestic violence coalition to receive updated statistics. you were citing 1975 numbers and learn a little bit more about the issue. caller: i would like to speak on behalf of men and in particular black men and washington, d.c., area regarding visitation. i found my experience is that the woman abuses the system and uses it against a man. my particular case, i was all, ok you want out, you're out. but you're not taking my daughter. that's our child. and i found the court system to work more towards the woman than the man. the woman used the system to make false claims and when i go back to court, i say your honor,

honor the court order. he said go to mediation. you don't mediate a court order. the woman needs to comply with the visitation order. so the system is not fair particularly for the black family. host: get a response from paulette sullivan moore. guest: i'm not exactly certain of what the dynamics of your particular case was, what judges are charged to do is look at the best interests of the child. and one of the standards of best interests of the child is whether or not someone is committing an act of domestic violence. if your wife wanted out of the marriage for that reason, then the court would then require that your contact with the child be limited and mediation is one of the factors that a court can

use when they want to give you assistance and doing the best possible job for yourself for your own life and life of your child. host: are you finding that there are false reports? guest: we don't find false reports of domestic violence. at least we don't find them any greater than other kinds of false reports. for example, people move thafere vehicles to some place and then they file a claim with the insurance company that the vehicle has been stolen. people do all kinds of things. we're not finding that in domestic violence there are incidents that is inconsistent with any other level of false reporting in life. what we do know -- what we do know from the victims that we work with, the millions of victims that we work with in the

programs that serve them, that it is so awful to have to report to anyone that you are a victim of domestic violence. no one is going to make that up. no one is going to say -- pretend that a harm that came to them that didn't come to them. it's a devastating thing tore many victims to have to admit to. host: nancy is calling in from pennsylvania. caller: i want to know why white a pass on re given domestic violence and child abuse. my son-in-law is an attorney and works for centcom and has a top secret clearance and my daughter was a flight surgeon in the navy for many years and seems to have zero credit built.

host: are you saying that your son-in-law was violent towards your daughter? caller: yes host: did she contact the police? caller: the last time she did. it happened three times. the last time she contacted the police. she was let out. a staff move, called a pain control hold where you twist the wrist inward and lock the elbow and transfer the trauma to the shoulder. ost: are they still married? guest: the divorce has gone on for years. host: i think we've got her point. guest: why are white collar men given a pass? i think resources is always an

issue in any kind of jurisprudence situation in our country. so if you look like -- we see so many men and the police see this, too. the man is very calm and very collected, i'm thinking of a particular case, a high-level corporate male committed heinous acts of domestic violence against his family, because who he was and who he appeared to be, abusers can be corporate leaders, they can be government leaders, thinking about a person, a victim who wrote about a book that her husband worked or reagan she said i wonder if i could get the president to have my husband stop beating me. i had a tennis partner who was

abusing his wife. and i didn't find out until after he died from a heart attack that he had been abusing her. found that out from another neighbor who was home during the day and got to see what was going on. we just don't know. our obligation is to look to see if we can, to speak up when it's a family member or a friend. but you're right, too many people get a pass. host: michael, give us the top line numbers, how many people are abused in the united states? guest: the rates are pretty high for certain groups and depending on how you measure it, hundreds of thousands of people a year. host: you used the number two million. guest: you have direct victims and via car youse victims, mother, children, the parents, all are suffering some way when

this relationship has an intimate partner violence. host: bureau of justice statistics. paulette sullivan moore from the national network to end domestic violence. thank you both for being on the program. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] >> live wisconsin governor's debate between governor walker and challenger mary burke. here are some of the recent ads from the race. >> i'm scott walker. i'm pro-life. there is no doubt in any mind the decision whether or not to end a pregnancy is an agonizing one. that's why i support legislation to increase safety and to provide more information for a woman considering her options. the bill makes the final decision to a woman and her doctor. reasonable people can disagree on this issue.

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$100,000. the three branches and you. videos need to include crmp span programming, show varying points of view and be submitted by january 20, 2015. grab a camera and get started today. >> the defense department's judicial proceedings panel tasked with reviewing sexual assaults. and looking at statutes. trying to determine whether they should be updated. will conduct that review and make recommendations to congress and defense secretary to approve sexual assault proceedings in the military. his is an hour and 10 minutes. -- good morning again. we are now ready deal with a

panel that is going to focus on military rules of evidence 412 and 415 and court martial proceedings. we have three -- two witnesses before us, colonel john baker, u.s. marine corps deputy director, judge advocate and william barto, highly qualified expert, attorney adviser. welcome to both of you and we'll start with you, colonel baker. thank you for your presence. >> good morning. as you noted, i'm colonel john baker. military justice and community development. we are here today to discuss 412 and 513 and other litigated article 32 hearings and article 39 a sessions and court martial.

i have litigated 412 and 513 issues at the trial and defense counsel and ruled on them as a military judge. i have taught classes on how to legitimate these issues in court and most recently, i have been dealing with 412 and 513 as a policy maker as a member of the joint services committee. where we recently recommended a revision to rules for court martial 405 that would apply the protections of 412 and 513 and article 32 hearings but would eliminate the constitutionally required exceptions at these preliminary hearings. the j.f.c. has recommended changes to 412 and 513 to clarify that a victim's right to be heard at a 412 or 513 hearing includes the right to be heard through counsel. with this background, i would like to offer a couple of observations and one anecdote

before i turn it over to mr. barto who will walk you through the procedural rules. first, i will offer as a germ proposition that when the procedural rules are properly applied that 412 and 513 strike the balance between protecting a victim's privacy interests and providing theact finder relevant evidence needed to determine the innocence of an accused. second over the course of my career, i have seen an increase in 412 litigation and even larger increase in 513 litigation and i have also observed an increased concern for protecting the privacy rights of victims.d, when exami rules, please take into account the important new role that victims' legal counselor special victim's counsel play in protecting a victim's privacy rights. in the marine corps, our victim legal council provide our

victims the right to be heard in article 32 hearings and article 39 a sessions and 412 and 513. i was surprised this morning when i looked at the ajeopardya of speakers and didn't see someone from the victim legal counsel to address this issue. i'll close with this -- > could i interrupt you. [inaudible] >> i served as a military judge in japan from 2001 to 2014 and the very early days of 513 litigation and i can still remember my first closed 513 hearing and my first incamera review of a victim's treatment record. the case was a hotly contested sexual assault and there was

proposition that the victim made inconsistent statements. i approached this hearing that it will be like any other session i would preside over. i was wrong about that. the victim was notified about the hearing and she appeared and made an argument that i not review her records. the defense counsel who was representing the young marine said that the records could contain material and at the conclusion of the session i order that they produce the treatment records for me to review. when the records arrived and i began to review them, i think this was the first time that i had appreciated how personal and private the communications are between the victim and her treatment provider. during the course of my review, i did discover a piece of critical tower that i felt needed to be disclosed to the accused and to the fact finder. as i balanced these competing

interests of these two young active duty marines, i became mindful of the discretion that i had as a military judge and i needed to have in order to make the proper decision. with that, >> thank you, colonel baker. madam chair, members of the panel, good morning. it's a privilege to speak with thethis morning about military rules of evidence that rule and rape shield the psychotherapist privilege. emphasis is going to be on the various ways in which the system safeguards at pretrialcy hearings and during a court-martial. much as colonel baker does, as someone who has every positiont in the military justice system. i've been a prosecutor, defense counsel, law professor, policy

official, staff judge advocate military judge at both the trial and appellate levels. i also speak to you as someone who has worked outside the military system, having spent the last five years with the judiciary as a senior attorney and court executive. and'm very confident comfortable when i echo colonel baker and say that the military justice system effectively provides due process for those crime, while safeguarding privacy interests of victims of crime, concerning their previous sexual behavior, their sexual predispositions and withnications psychotherapists. but i want to begin this portion time together by an introductory note. it's important to remember that, when dealing with the military rule of evidence, we're dealing of law created by executive order. the president has been congress iny

10usc 836 to promulgate rules of evidence. thethis is the language of statute, so far as he considers practicable, applying the law and the rules of evidence recognized in the thel of criminal cases in united states district court. such, you'll notice a fair similarity, as we consider these two provisions with those in the andral rules of evidence many state and commonwealth standards as well. have the first substantive slide, please. of evidence 412 implements a rape shield rule in military justice system. it is a rule of relevance. as irrelevants two broad categorize of -- evidence, evidence that's offered to prove that a sexualengaged in other behavior than that charged and

evidence offered to prove a victim's sexual predisposition, that is, her dress, speech, or lifestyle. now, it's important to note that is, as i mentioned, a rule of relevance. it is not a rule of privilege. such, there are three exceptions borrowed from the federal rule that you may find very familiar. the first is that the military into evidencet that evidence of specific instances of sexual behavior by offered toat are demonstrate that another person, a person other than the accused, the source of semen, injury or other physical evidence. this exception is, quite encountered less today than when i first began ofcticing, due to the advent sophisticated forensic examining well.a evaluation as the second exception is that a

admitry judge may evidence of specific instances of sexual behavior by the victim with the accused that is offered as madam chair noted earlier, to prove consent by the alleged case. in the this exception is criticized in under the -- on the basis that consent at some mean consentes not today. but it remains a part of federal prude dense juries dense -- the sexual activity the accused must be within a certain period of time, they say, in relation to the charged like one year or less, in some state systems. finally, the exception about the greatest amount of litigation.

this is the exception that would in the words of the rule, the exclusion of which would violate the constitutional the accused. what does that mean? the rule does not define what that means for the practitioner. but in my experience, evidence sort usually falls into one of several readily recognizable categories. example, evidence of previous sexual behavior that prejudice or bias, motive to fabricate on the part of the alleged victim in the case. similarly, this exception is used in military practice to of dem mon -- evidence that's so distinctive and so similar to the sexual at issue that it explains or provides context for

the instant allegations. interestingly, many states codify these circumstances in their own rules of evidence for criminal cases. but in military practice, these ad hocudicated on an basis by the military judge upon request by defense counsel in a case. we'll return to some issues encountered by practitioners and a little bit later in the presentation. i turn to the procedural requirements, it's helpful to what this rule of evidence is intended to do. could madam chair probably recite from memory, this is a draft -- this rule safeguard the victim against an invasion of privacy, andntial embarrassment sexual stereotyping that's associated with the public intimate sexual details. and the infusion of sexual

fact-finding the process. the analysis goes on to say, by protection, inm most instances this rule also victims of sexual offenses to institute and in legalto participate proceedings against alleged offenders and under without which the victim might be tempted to not go forward with her allegations. the next slide, please. the procedural requirements of evidencery rule 412 are very similar to those in evidence.l rule of i won't read the slide to you, but i will point out two differences in military practice. whereas the federal rules of periode allow a 14-day in which the typically defense counsel must submit a written motion giving notice of an

intent to use one of these exceptions to admit evidence of prior sexual behavior, the military justice system typically applies a much shorter deadline. the defense counsel need only a motion five days, as opposed to 14. slightlyecause of the more rapid pace of military statework than federal or criminal trials. alsothe federal system, it requires -- this rule requires that the victim be notified by defense counsel or the government of an intent to use prior sexual behavior or sexual disposition evidence, and it allows notification to be victim'sto the representative or counsel. receives atary judge motion like this indicating an intent by a party to use sexuale of prior behavior, or sexual predisposition, that judge must closed hearing, a hearing that is closed to the public.

the federal rule refers to it as an in-camera proceeding. it basically means the same although it's typical held in the courtroom, but without the public present. only the parties and necessary staff are present. the jurors are never present for this hearing. the military judge must act anyeal the pleadings, evidence that's received during a hearing and the transcript of itshearing, and prevent review, unless ordered by the court itself. military judges enter an order that allows the exhibit the reviewingy court. but not necessarily the or other authority counsel during the posttrial process. and any order issued by the military judge must, under this rule, specify exactly what offered,,s going to be permissibly, and which areas may be explored on direct and cross-examination.

summarized the judicial under military rule of evidence 412 in this graphic. first -- this chart depicts -- and i chose a particular perspective of a defense counsel seeking to admit evidence of prior sexual behavior or sexual this rule.ion under and there are at least four hurdles that must be jumped by order tose counsel in obtain the admission of such evidence. they mustis demonstrate evidence of the victim's sexual behavior or predisposition. if not, the ordinary rules of case.ce govern the that's not much of a hurdle and frequently tote whether one of the three exceptions apply. is the evidence relevant to one exceptions that apply for admissibility in this circumstance? that, other source -- that is,

other source evidence, previous consent, or is the evidence constitutionally required? if the evidence fits into one of categorize, then the military judge must perform a balancing test. that may not be familiar to those of you who have practiced in federal jurisdictions but may be familiar to those of you who practiced in state jurisdictions. this first balancing test requires the military judge to that's the evidence tendered by the defense and determine whether the value of probe tiff -- the outweighs thee danger of unfair prejudice to interests.s privacy madam chair may recognize this contextn from a civil in federal rule of evidence 412. but the president, in 2007, layer of protection for victims' privacy to military 412 andevidence military judges do this comparisonnalysis, a

of the value of the evidence sought to be admitted against of unfair prejudice to the victim's privacy interest. onlyhe judge can proceed if she finds that the probative value outweighs the danger of prejudice to the victim. the next step is familiar to any litigator. and it is found in military rule of evidence 403, which is identical to federal rule of 403.nce to be admissible, the probative value must not be substantially outweighed by the danger of any of the factors identified in military rule of evidence 403, confusion of the issues, undue delay, waste of time or confusion of the jurors in had had -- in this case. the circumstance that's frequently used by judges to exclude evidence in these circumstances, the mini trial, the trial within a trial over

the victim's sexual behavior or predisposition. if and only if the defense meets hurdles, relevance, exception, probative value and 403 analysis, may the military judge admit the evidence at trial. i'd like to make a bit of an observation here concerning a practical difficulty in the case law and in practice right now military justice practitioners that involves this decision-making process. panel's attention the unique balancing test presidentdded by the in 2007 in which they compare the military judge and practitioners compare the evidence value of the sought to be introduced with the danger of unfair prejudice to victim's privacy. the court of appeals for the armed forces has recently, in a cases and their progeny,

cast doubt as to the constitutionality of this provision as applied in a criminal setting. appeals has, in a expansive dicta, said the plainthstanding text of the military rule of evidence, which requires the this balancing test, that the privacy interests of a of unfaire danger prejudice to a victim's privacy will never trump the introduction of evidence that is material to the defense and favorable to the defense at trial. that is, the constitutional will to present a defense always trump the victim's privacy interests. this case, united states versus in volume 70 of the military justice reporter,

beginning, i believe, at page 248, and the court, although opinion, ishat skepticism toward thispplicability of provision and whether the victim's privacy is ever admissibility of evidence in a court-martial setting. judgeot speak for the advocate general in my next observation, but i don't believe eitherat result is necessary or appropriate under the military rules of evidence. do believe, and this is based on anecdotal evidence reported by military judges and practitioners, that it has created a great deal of uncertainty about what the state of the law is concerning military rule of evidence 412 the victim's privacy interests and the danger of not justejudice, prejudice, but the danger of

unfair pledge -- prejudice to the victim may ever be considered whic -- by a military judge. this puts judges in a bit of a conundrum. law as follow the promulgated by the president, they risk an ad hoc evaluation of their decision by the court of appeals, their action being deemed unconstitutional. incentive might be for perhaps an inexperienced judge to mention the fact that she's considering the privacy interests but reach the same outcome anyway, or to disregard the military rule of evidence and obey the dicta in the court appeals decision. none of these options are desirable. suggest that it may be, and i'm going back on the record it may be profitable for your panel to explore other state and commonwealth jurisdictions in which that balancing test has been successfully incorporated in -- because iie

believe that balancing test is important to protecting the privacy interests in guarding against unfair prejudice. remember, that's the only thing we're looking for in this case. of evidence that might be minimally probative. the next slide i'd like to is the psychotherapist privilege, under military rule of evidence 513. and jijlike to pause colonel baker or any others a questions.sk any >> i would like to echo talked --mr. baker mr. bartow talked about. usually come up in places whereall

population is relatively small and i think there is a -- have the kind of the added -- where we borrowed the civil part of 412 from the of into the military rules evidence, to account for the fact that in our small getting private theal behavior out on record and into that community danger ofs have a affecting the victim's privacy. i think that why the balancing test is there and that we do need -- i think it is we provide our practitioners a little more guidance in this area. >> thank you, colonel baker. i would agree with that. twin purposes of the military system is described in the preamble to the manual for courts-martial. not only justice but discipline and good order and discipline within the armed

forces. think the unique nature of military communities and service may justify the consideration of victim privacy interests, which orhaps in a federal setting elsewhere, might be constitutionally suspect. with thennection psychotherapist privilege, this chair.rea -- yes, madam opportunityded an for us to ask questions on 412 and i don't want to let that slip. does any member of the panel have any questions on 412? yourank you both for testimony. that, inw, you said describing the judicial decision making process under m.r.e. 412, even if the proposed passese to be offered the 412 scrutiny, that then this 403till examination that takes place. do you know of cases where it

passes, the evidence passes scrutiny under 412 but is excluded under 403 and can you that?t on >> the military rule of evidence expressly requires military to analyze otherwise admissible evidence under evidence 403.of the last sentence, i believe, of 412c3,y rule of evidence i believe, expressly requires that. case.happened in every i think the most common scenario time recollect from my own as a military judge, and even by reference to gattis, it doesn't necessarily result in the incident of an entire of prior sexual behavior or sexual predisposition on the the victim, but what it frequently results in is a narrowing of the evidence tendered, narrowing of the scope permissible cross-examination perhaps. and in gattis, that's what the

judge did. she narrowed the scope of cross-examination to prevent the defense from going too far victim'sto the sexual -- previous sexual behavior. example. provides one but i'd be happy to provide additional examples from the case law in a written submission my testimony. but i hope that addresses at least initially your question. you.ank offer -- i've seen it apply, the 403 balancing test apply when there's going to be sort of delay where, while the evidence may come over the of unfair prejudice to the victim's privacy right, but take a whileing to to get the evidence. and the evidence is just not worth delaying the trial to get that evidence into court, particularly -- as i said, i was we frequently had witnesses that would have to there.t

>> if i could -- 403 analysis. >> yes, ma'am. in fact, in a particularly aspect of the concurring opinion in gattis, chief judge efron proposes a methodology where military rule of evidence 403 overcome bye material evidence that's favorable to the defense. propose that that constitutional imperative to a defense would even prevent the operation of 403. no logical constraint on the reasoning of that case. why not allow hearsay? why not do away with authentication? i paint that as a worst case scenario, but the former law professor said we can't avoid slippery slope argument. i don't think the court meant

what it said in gattis, yet it a certain amount of anxiety and uncertainty as to 403 applyly 412 but in this new universe. >> any other questions? >> no, thank you. know that i am -- let me start by saying i'm speaking from public record what i've read in the newspapers, but from what i read about the case at the naval academy involving the not underre, i was the impression that the military bothered withcase any of your four hurdles. i didn't see anything about an in-camera hearing. i didn't hear -- the only exception that the judge relied on, i understand, was that it was the constitution -- that the constitution required it, without explaining how the constitution required it. when -- as i understand it,

ton the prosecution tried resort -- and it was victim's counsel in that case -- tried to appellatethe specific court over that judge, they did not take the case, and then with were petitions filed the court of appeals for the armed forces, and they did not take the case. basically, you're telling me about the four hurdles. it's beingnd like followed. have'd like to know if you some comment on that or if you tell us as a panel how we can get and review the record in very publics a example that upset an awful lot of people. >> this is one case in which the the is happy to defer to naval services to provide an how that to court-martial work. but i would give colonel baker

time to prepare, in saying that cases make bad law. every day, throughout the world, military judges are routinely applying the provisions of military rule of evidence 412 without media attention and with solicitous concern for due process rights of the accused and the privacy interests of the victim. i'll turn it to colonel baker to discuss the incidence in the naval academy case. >> sir, i have not reviewed the record of that case. that is, likef you, based upon what i've read in the newspapers. i can't provide you a comment on whether the rules were or were not followed in that case. certainly our procedural rules do require the judges to make a very difficult decision. and that very difficult decision is to balance the privacy the victim with the

rights of the accused. i'm confident in the cases that, as'm confident bill said, across the globe, lot.happens properly a are there cases where it doesn't? yes. but i don't think it's because thee's a problem with rules. it may be a problem with the folks that are applying the rules. i'm not trying to say that the judge in that case improperly applied the rules. just don't know enough onut the case to comment whether they were properly applied or not. judge will note that the that presided over that case, i believe, was the chief trial navy marine corpse trial -- corps trial judiciary. i would suspect he did properly apply the rules. that's kind of the best i can do, sir. think that m.r.e. 412 and

do properly provide practitioners the ability to apply it with some clarity as properly providen the added practitioners the ability to prongs. >> let's turn to those rules just for a second, because you opened your testimony, talking i thought was a proposed rule to allow victims a be heard through counsel. understandon't currently what the point is of ising a closed hearing if it not currently the practice that victims can be heard through counsel. victims are the people with the privacy interests during that hearing. the prosecution may care about it, but they have a broader casern, which is to get a to trial and they're not going to have to live with the adverse

publicity about their sex lives that the victim will. there's going to be a hearing, you certainly don't expect the victim to be themselves. so why is it that the military a rule thatpose victims be heard through counsel? why isn't that already a matter that's accepted across the board? a rule that victims be heard >> the victims always had a reasonably heard at these proceedings. the purpose of the joint committee proposing that we clarify that that right occurs through counsel was there frankly been some question about it. up to thef burg went court of appeals for the armed forces and we wanted to questionere was no about whether the victim's right to be reasonably heard at a 412 or 513 hearing included the right to be heard through counsel. i don't see why that --

dir -- providingto good thing.e is a >> it is a good thing. i'm pointing out that the fact that you have to provide that is evidence that there are an awful lot of military judges who are not allowing be heard through counsel and they're expecting recruits to speak for themselves on legal issues heard through the counsel which the services are on their to argue behalf about their privacy. and i just think that that's -- think it's long overdue, frankly, but i think it's an indication that there's something wrong. jump in on behalf of the army. mr. stone, in the current military rule of evidence, which mirrors the federal rule of evidence in this regard, the afforded a be reasonable opportunity to attend and be heard. bakerre is, as colonel noted, a fundamental right for the victim to be present and be

heard. is recent is the advent of special victim counsel or legal counsel which have been now provided by congress through statute in the defense authorization 2013 that now, of create a specific attorney advocate on behalf of victims. committeeservice change that is being contemplated is in response to phenomena of special victims legal counsel that are now part of the legal landscape and which need to be accounted for in the rule. assuming that judges everywhere are not respecting victim rights in the face of a clear pan date from the command -- mandate from chief that they do so, that's just not supported by my own experience and i would venture to speak in colonel baker's as well.

>> i guess my response to that victims right to counsel have not only been around for enshrinedt they were law, in 2004, in the crime victims rights act. all you're telling me is that recently congress made victims' counsel freely available to but counsel has been available to victims for ten years. and it's long overdue that military judges didn't expect who has counsel to have to get up and make the privacy, him or herself, and not through counsel. >> any other comments? >> no. i was just going to say it's true that the federal victims' right act talks about counsel. but the reality is most victims have counsel in the civilian world or any other world, because they can't afford them. it is a relatively new

phenomenon, both in the state -- so it doesn't surprise me that a new phenomenon and a good one in the military. youally, in the military, get counsel automatically if you pay for and you don't it. so it's gone beyond most of the exist in the civilian world. how articlested in 32's are working now. colonel baker, you started to talk a little bit about it. and did you say something about the constitutional aspect of the rule? i'm interested in that too. two different questions, i recognize. >> i'll start with the second easiest., because it's proposed -- >> the other way, if you could.