instead the assad regime is now focusing on the fsa more moderate units. they're not all nationalists. they're focusing their attention on them. trying to gain ground. the assad regime is garrisonned in the middle of the country in palm ira and could try to go out in the euphrates valley and try to retake some of these. i don't think they're going to. instead it's easier for them trying to take a run and encircling alepo their largest city. they encircle it first, starve it out and get everyone to agree to a cease fire. so i think that what we're likely to see if the administration's approach continues is that we'll see the assad regime regaining in some areas vis-a-vis isis and the f st. a. but it will be unable to go into the main heartland of isis

where isis is located and administer any kind of ruling, ie to retake and hold these areas. >> because of its own deficiencies. >> yes. it has a lot of problems inside. it's well known. you can hear these from lebanese circles. the regime forces are very tired. it's very hard when i think not just psychologically but also just militarily for three years for a group of minorities to just savagely mow down a majority of the population and try to shoot your way out. it's very hard to do that. it's very hard to convince people over and again. so we've seen a couple of even minority factions inside of syria say no i don't want to go serve in the military. there have been some protests in allied areas but most notably protests in drew's areas last week in swayeda where they say we don't want to volunteer for these death swauds. and the reason i say death

squads is very little important points which gets to the iranian area of this. look at the death toll figures inside of syria. in the press they'll break them down between regime and opposition. but look closer. the number of national defense forces, which are forces that are trained by iran's cudes force, almost all minorities and increasingly christians. they're enrolled in this militia. their percentage of the death toll is going up rapidly and it's leading to a lot of communities protesting against the radio e jet stream and its policies. because they're the rejeems and their policies because they're the ones putting their necks on the line with hezbollah and others in the country. that just numerically has ra real limit because the population, the sunni population is not only bigger, it's far young ir. sunnis have a lot more kids that alwites and other minorities. it's well known.

you can look statistics bare it out. that's the problem the regime has. and that's why they're so desperate i think at the moment to try and get, to try and finesse themselves with america's current air campaign to save themselves. at least in their own areas. but the problem the united states has is unlike this old formula we have between ceasefires and trying to overthrow the assad regime is i think we're looking at a state now of just partition. i don't see the assad regime moving into the uefradse valley and i don't see the opposition factions all getting together agreeing on one flag and taking damascus. and that is a big problem that will take a lot more than what we're doing to solve. >> one of the -- i do want to come back to that now because you mentioned the iranian trained national defense forces and mike you talked about like what's the kind of pressure that we can put on iran to get

the iranians to convince abadi to let the sunnis have a fuller role than their own government. and of course this seems to be right now from reports, as i've mentioned before it seems to be the opposite. what seems to be happening is that the administration may be providing certain concessions in the nuclear talks because they're eager to have the iranians buy in on isis. so it seems to be going in the wrong direction. i guess the first thing i want to ask is i want to ask you what kind of pressure could we put on the iranians if we were predisposed to do it. and what i want to ask two of you, we may have a few minutes for questions after that, how did we get here where it seems right now in washington the main strategic issue is isis when in reality the main strategic issue has been since this president took office has been the iranian nuclear program, iranian nuclear

weapons program. but right now with all the concentration on isis it seems that the iranians have slipped to the back of the screen and so i'm going to ask the two of you to talk about that a bit. >> the one thing that as you look at the middle east the last 20 years, russia has had a consistent strategic message when it comes to the middle east. china has had a consistent strategic message when it comes to the middle east. iran certainly has. saudi arabia to one extent. the one country that everybody is looking to to fix these things has not had a consist

it can't be westerners that are trying to do this. one of the main things when you talk to sunnis in iraq and we've said this over and over again is they believe that the central government is simply an iranian puppet. and how do we change that? we're not going to be able to change that. we have to get iran to change that. we can't do that so we have to get these other powers to try to push that. i am concerned about the nuclear concessions. i am concerned that we say ok well the nuclear thing's a strategic issue we can deal with two years from now in der to kill this short

tactical target or 50 meter target we used to see in the military. that concerns me. and when we see the administration meet with iranian officials it's always about nuclear issues but it's never about can you pressure abbadi to get more sunnis into the ap rat tuss or release sunni rivals from detention or release key sunnis in detention right now that could send messages to the sunni community such as the former minister of defense. and former republican guard commanders that are charismatic sunnis that were simply arrested -- i shouldn't say that. they were arrested because of their affiliation with the bath party. but any time they sigh a charismatic sunni leader they get detained using the terrorism law or the accountability and justice law. used to be a bathist so he needs to go away for a while.

or simply removed from a position. >> do the iranians really care for isis or is it good for them? we have hezbollah are a bunch of arabs, shia. let them all fight. it keeps things safe on our borders. are they concerned about this? >> i think they love it that they have isis. they have a good excuse to deal with. sometimes they are concerned. but if we think about the way we've been handling iran so far -- and forget what's happening behind closed doors. just look at the public statements. en you get irans saying, ok, you know we go to the iranians and the president says we think you're a responsible power and we're ready to share. and the iranians say great we'll replace you in the region. and the iranians say we hate you. and we say yes we love you too. this is the kind of dialogue we've been having with the iranian. if you're someone in that part

of the world you see that the united states has been swinging back and forth. we gave up on our best ally mubarak only to replace him with a guy who is worse and we're not even bringing up issues of human rights in egypt even the courts center closed down yesterday. and this swinging back and forth between ok now we're supporting democracy. ok now we're not. now we're talking to iran. the thing is we have to be consistent. the policy has to be consistent. and to my mind, the best successful policy that we've had over the past ten years in iraq was the surge of troops that saved iraq from al qaeda. and that surge of troops was ordered by president bush when he was taking all sorts of political heat in this town from both republicans and democrats. so he went against the politics and he ordered what was right, what was consistent. and this administration is doing the opposite. they look at the polls and say,

ok, now air power is fine. ok, we'll use air power. even if air power is only good against regular armies not against militias. >> do you think they have? do you think the administration has a -- look, maybe we should have phrased it like this. does the administration actually have a real policy toward isis or do you think it's -- look, i'll ask in a second about the messaging campaign regarding syria. but are we talking is it a messaging campaign or is it a policy? >> i don't think they do. the leader of jews in lebanon he just orded the building of two mosques one in his hometown of muck tada. he orded the onmuslim jews to train like them. he doesn't believe the u.s. has a viable counter terrorism or counter isis plan. if he thought otherwise then he would probably think that's not a threat and we can survive.

>> interesting. andrew, again, i will ask for the same question. how did we get to this place where three years ago or a little more than three years ago, march 2011, when the syrian rebelion started and the strategic common wisdom was to help topple assad would be a good thing because it would weaken the iranians. and now more than three years later where we are where we are our concern is isis and we're protecting assad and the iranians are someone we seek help from? how did this happen? if you want to talk about it a little bit not just what's happened in the region but what's happened here in washington. best article he i've ever seen summing up the administration's approach more recent article, i guess, there have been lots of light footprint, leave them behind. and then the minimalist

approach. i think that's what the president is doing. he's ramping up things slowly in a minimalist way hoping for the best outcome. and it's hedging. right? this is not new. it's not -- i think the problem we have is that it's increasingly apparent to the american people that we're not achieving our objectives. and that's a big problem. it's a big problem on a number of levels particularly when you have the growth in a group like isis in a very chaotic war inside of syria where we had stated policies and we didn't achieve them and that's why isis exists there to the degree that it does. if we had armed the rebels earlier would we have jihaddists? we would. would we have larger factions that we have way over? yes we would and we wouldn't be starting from scratch. so the problem is i see is the minimalist approach will not take care of isis. and that's a problem for the

united states. the other problem is that our minimalist approach to syria isn't going to end the war there. and the reason this gets to the iranian part here. the iranians and hezbollah, who they support in lebanon, and a lot of shia militias they intervened in syria. it's a whole fascinating story in all this. they intervened to prop up the syrian arab army and to devpl the national deevent forces to train minorities to kill the majority sunni population and to shoot them into be submission. and that intervention is due to a couple of things. it's their resolve to prop up their ally which backs up hezbollah and lebanon but part of a larger issue i think. you have this thing called the stability-instability paradox and there are a lot of people in the region, who know more about this. but basically when a country gets nuclear weapons or nuclear

capability, or approaches that capability, their relations and their ability to deter stronger nuclear powers goes up. that would be here, israel, the united states, and so on, because you can't wipe out the regime. you have a nuclear weapon you can launch on someone else. and your relations become suddenly stable. but your tendency to wage proxy wars in the countries around you goes up dramatically. thus, the stability-instability paradox. that's where the iranians are. they are pushing into areas that have traditionally been arab or arab speaking for cent rids. and they're doing it at unbelieveably strong ways. unfortunately, what they've done in this -- started out as a war between a tyrannical government, minority government supported by iran against a peaceful uprising in the country. it turned armed. sunni countries in the region are deadset -- they are

desperate to break this iranian-shia access that comes out from iran, through iraq, through syria, and over to lebanon. and in a regime sense. and the way to do that, unfortunately, is to fight them to the last dead syrian. and that's the dynamic here. >> you mean the sunni powers? >> yes. that's the fundamental misreading of this administration and a lot of other people in washington too to be fair. this is not a police action, this is not a counter terrorism action. this is a larger war in the region that we can -- we can have all the meetings we want with the saudis and the turks and everybody else about shutting off the tap to this and that. good luck. because they're not about to do it. because there are a lot of other -- they don't see things the same way that we do. it's not because they're bad. it's just they see them in different ways. and unfortunately, jihaddists, who are against the united states, crop up in these ungoverned spaces and create a

lot of mayhem for our national security. >> i was going to say it's very interesting the way you're describing this. because of course the way the president has put in a number of interviews is that these sunni-shia conflicts are bad and proxy wars are bad. and that may be true. but the people in the region would have to look around and say i'm sorry that's what we've been doing for a long time. you heard hussein talk about the conflict between the sunni-arab tribes and the kurds and this is a part of cobe ani. this did not start with isis. it's gone on for a long time. so the administration clearly needs to get down there and address serious issues. whether it like it or not -- it doesn't necessarily have to address it this way but it has to understand how the people in the region see it. i'm going to open it up now for ten minutes and see if there is a question. and if you would wait until -- do we have someone in the room with a microphone? yes, we do.

this gentleman here sitting right there. if you would just wait. stand up, please, introduce yourself and ask your question. >> my name is norris. thank you so much for the amazing presentation. i'm an american jew and i will ask you the question of every minority in that region. basically, in the future we're going to have u.s. troops on the ground, they will for obvious reasons they will definitely work with iranian affiliated groups. and this will legitimize their work. and i'm talking here about the militias and hezbollah. so how does that affect the longer term stability in the region in lebanon and in syria? thank you. did you you like to -- say american drews? so yes. >> ok. please. well, i think the point is at

this point you need to hear because we know the surge was based on three elements, clear, hold, and transfer. now the first two elements are missing. or maybe the three of them. so we can't clear. before we hand over to whether tribes or minorities or anybody else. so, i mean, talking to the iranians, yes, there was a joint effort with the shia militias, what they call hish abis in iraq. the u.s. fighter jets gave air power, air cover. and then sheeze shia militias retook turk men shia town from isis. and of course the first to take his pictures in this liberated area. so at the end of the day if we clear the towns will go to their native people whether

they're druse sunni or shia. and if we see it as of isis and then when we pass to them or the tribes, that to my mind should work. >> mike? >> that's good. >> ok. if you could -- the woman in the front row here. >> i'm penny. i wanted to ask michael. you said earlier about maliki saying to petraeus, come in and we'll do anything you want. we heard from the obama administration for a long time that the war -- he wanted to end the war, it was going to end at a specific time. and even with the status of forces agreement, we couldn't stay any longer. so what you said seemed to completely contradict that. could you expand? >> sure. we were the only ones -- back you have to remember 2008-2009 after the surge. we went from 57 attacks per day in baghdad in 2005-2006 to 10

attacks nationwide after the surge. and after the sons of iraq were in place. at that point, we said, ok, we're going to treat the iraqi government like an independent government. a sovereign government. we were the only ones doing that. the iranians were heavily influencing maliki not to sign the status of forces agreement. but that didn't mean we couldn't have pushed harder and done more things. and we should have. the only thing you could depend upon when joe biden -- i'm sorry vice president biden came to baghdad would be rocket attacks. if he would show up he wouldn't be able to go in for three hours. and then he would leave. and there would be rocket attacks in the meantime. he was given the portfolio to push this, make this happen. we all knew at the time when we were there, ok, how do we keep a force here? we do it by doing an advise and assist. military equipment and training

and we stay that way. we could have stayed under the caveat of something else. but we chose not to because the protections weren't offered to american soldiers. you were going to be tried by this iraqi government. and we couldn't put any soldier in that kind of danger. but more could have been done. that's the biggest thing. 57 attacks. >> do you want to elaborate? what do you mean? >> we could have pushed for the status of forces agreement. if you want the artillery, our special forces and intelligence capabilities then we need a status of forces agreement. then you use the kurds and the sunnis that you have leverage in both communities to put treasure on the central government to do exactly that. relied too much on the shias and government to make those decisions would f without using leverage and took our hands off. said it is a sovereign government. they were able to sit there and

watch lawrence of array ba walk in for a year, the guy who didn't want to be here walk in for a year. the guy who simply thought you could have a two-hour dinner and thought he could change your mind. this is too hard to do. i need more money. you need to back us up when we go after these certain targets. we could have done more. there were a lot of great americans who tried. and there are a lot of great americans who said don't try. let's respect see what the grn oi does. >> with without being if a sishese i'm going to ask all of you because we're about to wrap up here the answer. we all believe this is important, that the president also has his point as well. how long are the american people supposed to commit resources both their sons and daughters and their loved ones as well as money to iraq? and we can say now well if you don't then you wind up with a phenomenon like isis. and the counter argument is

isis really a threat to the united states? yes, they might put some nuts on airplanes and come here. but we may have that anyway. so what is the importance of that commiting resources to iraq? we shouldn't have withdrawn resources. and now we need to again. what's the argument? >> real quick in 30 seconds. we coined the phrase recently operation inherent resolve. if the iranians coined that same operation phrase, it would be believed. because they've demonstrated that in syria. they've kept assad. they've demonstrated their willingness to fight in iraq. but the way we approach this with this limited approach, it sounds more like incoherent resolve. and that's the issue. because the sunnis that we need to fight this thing don't believe us. they don't believe we're there for the long haul. >> anything? >> i agree. we could have withdrawn. but at least we could have kept the sat waves on the pay rolls

the sunni fighters. the lefrpbl. there's no need to throw allies under the bus at er corner. by the way when we speak about commiting resources think how much iran is paying. the money that iran is commiting to this fight is peanuts compared to what the united states is paying. so again, it's only needs consistency and not that much more -- not that much money and resources. but if we're swinging -- we have to think of the visual of when we want to beat isis we -- our secretary of state goes and talks to the minister of iran. that's the message to the sunnis. we're beating them by talking to our enemies. so we have to keep this in mind but i don't think we are. we are making mistakes visual or otherwise and we look at ours and say why is that happening? >> do you want to -- take a tab at this?

>> i had an opportunity to go to moscow earlier this year in a conference by the russian defense ministry. it was very interesting. what i think i learned -- it was fascinating just the messaging. they think that president obama is actually sort of some sort of mastermind. they think that he that president obama is behind what they call the color revolutions all over the world. ukraine, what have you, in syria. and that what he does is through this low minimalist approach he gets people to rise up against their governments and then it starts a civil war and then it is used as a pretext for a u.n. resolution which allows for an american intervention to flip that country to its side and that's the way it projects its power. >> organized kay ofments >> and i thought to myself, i was one of five americans

there. nato boycotted and i remember saying to a russian colleague. do you really think there's a plan? really, i can assure you this is not a plan. ok? >> not as far as you know. >> you're not in the inner circles. >> what i mean is i think the problem that we have is very simple. that it's very difficult auttocksies are general are much better at projecting their power than democracies. even though we relate on an individual level to the people inside these countries and their aspirations but we're just not good at projecting our power because, what do i have to say to this american to get what i want? because they know how to divide us. they know who to invite over. what do you want to do if you want -- you invite the following journalists over. they will write that the american government is behind all these secret things and all we need to do is back x. tyrant to shoot their way out of this

problem. the one thing that the arab spring did is it challenged that notion. >> how? >> i think it was -- it's about stability. what is stability? and in the case of syria, we can definitely say -- i mean, look at the middle east now. right? you have the air rab spring being reversed in egypt. and in other places. but there are other -- and egypt is a nation state, a long historical nation state with a -- with a very strong military with a long tradition. but you have all these other weak states. so the problem i see with the stability argument is it would make a lot more sense and therefore the russians issue would make a lot more sense if you didn't have the reality that their central governments and their militaries are too weak to retake and hold all the territory. so it's like when you go to a kissinger lecture, right, and it's like listening to a

symphony or watching a master chess player it's just beautiful because all the squares are clear, black and white. it's like when i was a kid. but then once it's over you look at the situation you realize all the different squares on the chess board now are broken. so you can move your piece over there but you can't over into these squares. i think that's the challenge for not only americans but everybody. and if we work together to solve that, i think we can make the regime -- >> you mean to fix the chess board or how to play a chess board that is broken? >> i'll use another alanny. >> no i like it. >> my first job was with the "new york times" in the middle east of cairo. we used to have a layout program. so as young journalists we would sometimes to no end try and depict reality as best we could on the pages of the newspaper and to the middle east credit they allowed us to

do so. so we put everything on the page we write our words and put graphics but there was this really tense moment when we had to see if it would work. there was this button called snap the grid. if what you laid out on the page which depicted reality didn't match the grid, the designer looks and said we can't do it. but in the end i found that the only way that we ever really published the paper was we had to address the grid. i mean, there really was no way around it. because if you didn't, you didn't end up actually solving the problem. these problems are ones that humans have been dealing with for millenia. it is normal for political entities to grow and to contract and to break into pieces. i don't need to -- many european friends. these things are solveable. americans working with their allies can do this. but we need to do it a in a way that's smart that makes sense

and actually we try and achieve our objectives that we outline. because if not we'll just be -- then the russians will continuously be able to do what they've done in the last year, and that is use the militia, like -- seize territory and then annex it over to its own territory. and be able to get away wit. until we can counter that guest: we're going to have a prosh projecting our power. >> i'm afraid we have to close on that. we will reconvene in a few years to see if we got the grid right or what happened. thank you all for coming. .hank you.

this year, we are continuing the tradition by sponsoring debates in major wisconsin political campaigns. this year, the broadcasters association is hosting to debates. gubernatorial this debate will engage the two leading candidates for wisconsin candidaterepublican for governor scott walker and

democratic candidate mary burke. the debate is made possible in by generous grant from the wisconsin association for the colleges and universities and the aarp of wisconsin. i would like to introduce the night, a for the veteran reporter from the iraqi n.blic radio, aaron --eri latest figures make informed choices i have a candidates share specific ideas about how they plan to wisconsin. each candidate will have the heavy minutes for an opening statement, determined via going to. two minutes for an opening statement, determined by a coin flip. each candidate will have one minute early seconds to respond -- one minute and 30

seconds to respond. will alternate the order. divide responses that answer the panelists' questions and stay on topic. the specifics answers, i may call on the panelists to restate the question and give each of you 30 seconds for a focused reply. please adhere to the time limits you have agreed to. if you exceed your limit, i will remind you that your time is up. should you persist, your microphone will be silenced. we will conclude the debate with three-minute closing statements. finally, we will be addressing the candidates as governor walker and missed work --ms. burke. >> thank you to the broadcasters association, governor walker, all of you at home watching tonight, and my family, my mother and relatives who are

here with me tonight. the election is about wisconsin's future. not only can we do better, but we must do better, so that everybody has a fair shot to get ahead if they do the hard work. governor walker sees it a little differently. he says, and i quote, "we do not have a jobs problem." the average family who are seen income drop $3000 over the last four years, that is a jobs problem. it is not fair and that is not good for the economy. instead of building up the middle class, governor walker has aimed to tax breaks to those at the top. it is not working. wisconsin is dead last in the midwest in terms of job growth under his watch. that is the job's problem. i want to make sure that every wisconsin family has a fair shot to get ahead if they are prepared to do the hard work. a fair shot means first and

affordable,at, public education, starting in kindergarten all the way through college. i will invest in schools and make college more affordable. a fair shot also means a growing economy with growing small businesses, raising the minimum wage, increasing good paying jobs. a fair shot means reducing the tax burden to those who are being squeezed. and a fair shot means a government that is accountable, pistol he responsible, and working for the people of wisconsin, not special interests. and finally, it means an end to divisiveness. we are all on the same team and we are proud wisconsinites first and foremost, not republicans or democrats. i look forward to share my plan -- sharing my plan with you that gives every wisconsinites a bright future. >> good evening. thank you to the wba for sponsoring the event and

particular thanks to my wife and two sons, matt and alex. think you are home for turn -- thank you at home for tuning in to what i hope will be an honest and open debate. i have great news. 8400 new jobs were created last month. that is the best september with had for private sector job creation in more than a decade. on top of that, unemployment is down to 5%, the lowest since october of 2008. wisconsin ranks fifth in the nation for new manufacturing jobs. that is why we have invested $100 million to worker training to help people get the skills that they needed for the good paying jobs available right now. the most recent fiscal year ended with a cash balance of some $570 million -- $517 million. the next budget will begin with a surplus.

that means that we can invest in priorities. economic development, quality schools, technical colleges. hoping d -- helping needy families. helping people who are victims of domestic violence, like my friend who is here today and has been such an inspirational advocate. overall, wisconsin is better off than it was four been years ago, and we have a plan to make it better. i invite people to go to scott walker.com to look at my plan. i will share details tonight. working together, we can continue to move wisconsin forward, and that is why i ask for your vote. thank you, governor walker. the first question tonight is from charles benson, a political reporter. >> let's talk about budget numbers. this week, the nonpartisan number crunchers told us that wisconsin has a $517 million

surplus. at the same time, we are hearing that the state faces a $1.8 billion projected shortfall in the next budget. voters are asking how can both be true? question, you agree that there is a surplus, and what is the priority for that money? secondly, do you agree that there is a projected deficit for the next budget, and what we do specifically about it? -- would you do specifically about it? that theimportant people of wisconsin understand the financial position of our state. i have been a business person my entire career, balanced a bunch of budgets, and the numbers can be confusing. the fact is that the $570 million refers to a cash allen's. ballance. -- if you have a bunch of bills that have not come do yet, it

may look like you have a lot of money, but you have to pay them. bills. a lot of deferred colleges and universities that are putting projects on hold in order to inflate this number to make it look at her than it is. is.etter then it governor walker has spent money that we do not have. this year, we are projected to spend a $400 million more than we taken. where way that i would approach ,his, and the projected deficit is that we have to make tough decisions. we have to get the economy going so we have revenues coming in. we have to make sure that we prioritize our spending based on economic development and getting the economy going. because that is what is going to make sure that wisconsin is in the strongest position financially, when we get the economy up and running.

>> there is no disputing the fact, the facts are clear. wisconsin just finished its last 2014, year, june 30 of with a $570 million surplus. million dollars o surplus. billion figure comes from an assumption of zero growth. that just does not happen. figure.billion if you combine that with the fact, just making some reasonable adjustments to be budget, as we have over the past year, i will put us in a place where we have a surplus. the priorities will be the ones we just talked about. moderator for a second, that clock just changed twice. is that the way it is supposed to be going?

i thought we had a minute and 30 seconds, but it switched. >> you do have a minute and 30 seconds, so we will check the situation. >> i apologize to be viewers, but it was a little odd for both of us. >> we are going to check it. and now, your 32nd rebuttal? let's make sure -- 32nd rebuttal -- 30 second rebuttal? let's make sure we have 30 seconds on the clock. go ahead. >> the fact remains that we have a $1.8 billion projected deficit. $2s is a difference of billion from the last budget, because of the fiscally irresponsible decisions that governor walker made, and because the revenues are lagging because the economy is lagging. this is going to be a tough budget.

as governor, i am prepared to take on the tough decisions for the next. -- next budget. >> we inherited a deficit entered into a surplus rated we did it the old-fashioned way, paying off the money that we owed. the paid back the money taken from the patient compensation fund. we even paid money back to minnesota. the rainy day fund is bigger than when we took office. our pension is one of the only fully funded ones in the country. we are putting a focus on fiscal responsibility, and we will have a surplus in the next day budget. based upon the -- state budget. based upon the reasonable projections that relate out -- will lead out. kent.t question is from >> the debate is taking place in downtown the walkie. you have both talking about the importance to all of wisconsin of having a thriving economy in

the city. in inner-citynt milwaukee, particularly among african-american men, remains exceptionally high. some boarded at 50% or higher. there arel us that if jobs, they are not here, and they are desperate for change sooner. can you give us some specific examples of what you can and will do to tackle the and implement problem in the short term in the heart of the state's largest city. >> this is a real problem. i noticed that when i was the milwaukee county executive, and tried to act on it as governor. announced a2012, we program. $100 million from the state to try and invest in new developments, new projects, things that would put people to work. not just with jobs, but with

family supporting jobs. .e have added to that the transformer walkie program for jobs, it is part of the transitional program elsewhere in the state, and we will build on that. i have asked people to head up a task force on minority unemployment in tackle that very issue. they have made a series of recommendations. that is why we have made academic plans. in the short term, we need capital investment in milwaukee. we did that by putting it, and the heart of the city, our new romans headquarters. -- children's headquarters. we are going to continue to build off of that and not just talk about it. put our money where our mouth

is. this is a real issue, because wisconsin cannot have a thriving economy without a milwaukee economy that is driving as well. the tomorrow -- that is driving as well read the milwaukee economy has not come back thriving as-- well. that has not happened. walker, it would be six more years before milwaukee county would get to prerecession unemployment levels. that is not good enough, and governor walker has had four years, and forming a task force now is not good enough. do, with my experience as an entrepreneur, is a new concept used in cleveland called anchor institutions. use anchor institutions like hospitals, health care, institutions

to start new businesses, help them to grow the businesses, and give contracts. we also need to invest in the local communities, in neighborhoods where we have boarded up your funds. did the people the business skills that they need to start we do business as their. start theirs -- to own businesses there. that $100 million i talked about is more than just talk, we invested it. we invested another $100 million on top of that on top of that, we put money into the african-american chamber of commerce. we did the same thing with the hispanic chamber of commerce. but let's be clear. referenced governor doyle, and that led to the losing of jobs. we have had to clean up that mess and will continue to do so going forward. >> getting back to the central

city, in milwaukee, the most important thing that we have to do is focus on metal of the jobs themselves, but our job skills and education. i look forward to taking on the tough issues on education in is whate, because that is going to drive economic development and jobs in the long-term. we have to make sure that people have the skills and the training and a career plan when they leave high school as to how they are going to make sure they get that, along with affordable access to higher education. >> the next question is from cbs 58 reporter mike. >> both of you have said that you need more information from an economic impact study before taking a position on a high-stakes casino proposal. what are you going to need to see in the study that would convince you to say yes or no? and furthermore, what does your gut say?

what does your moral or philosophical core say about expanded gaming? >> i look forward to digging on this issue. because it is very important to the people of kenosha and also in milwaukee. governor walker has had 14 months to do this, and before this was ever even approved by the federal government, he laid out three criteria that he said he would use to make a decision. he has now flip-flopped, and he thises in addition, not one of te criteria had to do with job creation and economic development, which is the most important issue we face here. i would make sure that we have an impartial study that looks at the impact of the casino both on milwaukee and kenosha. competition with other states like iowa and illinois, not only for gaming, before entertainment. -- but for entertainment.

if it creates a significant number of new jobs and adds to the employment and tax base, i casino.prove the but we do need to have the impartial study done, and as soon as that is done, i will make the decision. i would not kick the can down the road. >> i love kenosha. . go there often as the mayor knows, i spend a lot of time down there, and i am pleased to see how many jobs we have helped to create, many have come from northern illinois, across the border. is totalt manufacturing or amazon in the town of summer. journal"aukee business put out a story talking about 4000 new jobs in the kenosha area. but the biggest thing holding us up right now is really two words, jim doyle.

jim doyle put in compacts a decade ago that specific we said that if a casino is put up and kenosha, they could hold out on $100 million or more. they have talked about withholding part of those payments to date. to me, a $100 million hole in the budget is significant. if we did not have that factor out there, it would be a different discussion. we will take the full amount of time that we need to to make sure we can get to a point where we can create those jobs. create the jobs there and create jobs in other parts of the state without creating a $100 million hole in the state budget. isthere is no doubt that it not an easy situation, but that is where you have to be a tough negotiator. make sure that you have the best interest of the state as a whole in mind. you can bring together the parties to do something good for the state. i think we have that opportunity

here. but we have to make sure we get people to the table. that is what i have done through my entire career, is billed those kinds of public/private partnerships to make sure that we end up on the right side of this. >> this is one of those were my opponent, and supporters of her, criticize us when they ignore the fact of the federal government took nine years. both the obama and bush administrations drag this out because they needed the time to make a decision. we're going to take the time to make sure that we do not put a hole in the state budget. we started negotiating, and are going to continue that, but we are going to put the stewardship of taxpayer money first. >> i see that you would like to press for specifics. would you reset your question? >> you set a significant number of jobs. -- 1000,a set number 2000, or a revenue number -- that you would need to see in the report?

>> it would need to be in excess of 500 jobs, but in we need to look at not only the direct jobs, but also the multiplier effect from additional people spending that money in the community. i would look at both the direct and indirect jobs. that wee, we make sure add jobs and kenosha and do not subtract in other parts of the city -- in kenosha and do not subtract in other parts of the state. >> for next from a fox news anchor. -- or next question from a fox news anchor. >> sadly, it is not being used in the fall due to a collapse by the brewers, but miller park is here. theould not be here without public support and persistence of then governor tommy. likely that whoever wins will have to deal with an issue with the, who could be seattle

milwaukee bucks, who could be seattle bound. would you allocate public funding to create a new arena, or would you pledge to block state tax dollars needed to build the project? governor, i believe it is your turn to inbound the ball. >> good metaphor. i have two sons who love to go -- bucksucks buck g games. in the past, and i will repeat tonight, i do not support the sales tax for this project are other projects. but i do think we should look at is what is the actual value -- not the theoretical value, but the milwaukee bucks as a team bringing into the state of wisconsin in terms of revenue to the state that we would otherwise lose.

i think you are right, the mba has said that if by 2017 they are not up and going here, they are going somewhere else. we do not want that. --t of our goal is to assess we have been working on that over the past few months -- assess the actual amount that the milwaukee looks and their because the players and the visiting players are taxed on a prorated basis when they play a game -- what is the actual dollar amount, and what would we lose. that is a legitimate basis on which to begin a discussion. >> your response? >> our group and heartland, not too far away, and i certainly remember watching the ducks when they won the championship in 1971. that we can see in a community from having a thriving nba franchise. as i mentioned previously, what we have seen right now is that milwaukee county has not come back from the recession.

six more years before we get to prerecession employment. we have to look at what investments are needed to have a thriving milwaukee economy. lot, not onlys a directly to milwaukee but to other communities around it and certainly to the state. thatw from my experience sometimes you need to make investments in order to grow. the public option should be on the table but it should be the last one, and we have to protect the taxpayers here. but we have to understand the impact it has on the community, not only the direct impact but the indirect impact on the lucky. -- on the lucky. milwaukee. we have to make sure that we are thriving and keeping young people in the community, and sports teams play a role in that. i want to look at that from a business perspective. what is the impact overall the community, how can we bring

people together in public/private partnership to make that happen will protecting -- while protecting the taxpayer. >> i love milwaukee. why sons were born at st. joseph here. i love this community and i love the state. i want to make sure that my sons and others like them want to stay here. part of that is quality of life, which is not just the bucks, but all the great assets we have across the state. i want to make sure that we do that responsibly and the tax-and-spend policies in place before i came into office are responsible for problems. i do not want to repeat those. >> this is an important decision for milwaukee. i applaud the owners and between the leaders that are putting resources into this. -- and community leaders that are putting resources into this. as governor, i want to look at how we make this happen.

again, we need to protect the taxpayers, but a lot is on the line here, and i am going to take a position to make this happen. >> back to charles benson. >> we have seen a huge tv battle over these ads saying who would do a better job creating jobs, throwing numbers out. sentinel"ukee journal analyzed the numbers and found that wisconsin lagged the nation for growth for the past 10 years , including governor walker's urke's years in commerce. give me some place that will allow the state to up perform the country. -- plays that will allow the state to outperform the country. >> that is why i'm running for governor. steps tot taking the make sure that wisconsin has a

thriving and growing economy. that is why i laid out in my plan five core strategies to make this work. these are five strategies that are unique to wisconsin, ones that i think will work here, that are the best ideas i gathered from across the country. two of them -- i could go on for a lot more than a minute 30 on this. it is on workforce training, college affordability. small businesses being able to grow. are 46 in the country in terms of new businesses started, and it is new business growth that actually creates 70% of jobs that are created. when mir in the bottom five of the country, it is not good enough. -- we are in the bottom five of the country, it is not good enough. we need to make sure that we keep good people and the workforce and they stay in our communities. that we have a strong public education system, kindergarten all the way through university. after bring down the cost of

college, because 70% of the jobs created in the future require education and training past high school. it will take a lot more, and right now, we do not have a plan or vision of how we can make sure that wisconsin is actually leading the midwest instead of gging.ng -- la >> we have an exciting plan and we are building it. my opponent's plan is based on some of the things we are doing. some of the questions and we made to bring water technology here. i was just an chippewa valley for the new energy center they have their the technical college. we have invested in those. what we need to build on bread-and-butter, manufacturing and agriculture. we will accelerate the amount of growth and those key industries in the coming years -- in those key industries in the coming

years. but it is not your grandma and grandpa's markets. we have seen an increase in imports and exports. this reckoning those areas and going into new areas, beverages, clean energy, biotech. the things that we have invested in our evolving. our plan will continue to come back. in this area, i think we agree, it is about investing in education, but we target investments. we just 28 million dollars more this summer in buying down the wait list into technical put $28 million more this summer into buying down the wait list and technical colleges. we want to grow off of that. the "journal sentinel" review the jobs plan and say that it is more of the same. that will not get the job done. it will not move the needle. we have to be more aggressive

about the investment that we have. what i have seen for governor walker is that he believes that if you give tax breaks to those at the top it creates jobs. i have a business person, i know how jobs get created. you need to have small business growth, workforce training. you have to have a real plan, and it has to be aggressive. >> 8400 new jobs were created last month rid that is the best september for more than a decade. unemployment is down to 5.5%. the lowest since october 2008. compare apples to apples. the last time of the unemployment rate has been worse work during the three years that my opponent was in commerce. >> the next question is from kent. each ofld like to ask you to your reaction to a jobs related issue of the euro faced in your and pain.

there is a saying in politics, the buck stops here. heaven a when asked about your failure to reach your stated goal on jobs, you blame that on uncertainty due to capital protest and recalls. rke, you blame the controversy over the multiple copied passages on your jobs plan on a consultant, saying he should not abuse the same words. how much responsibility or blame deal except for those situations having occurred, and should be -- do you accept for those situations having occurred, and should voters hold you accountable? over $133,000ost -- 130 3000 jobs due to the policies of my predecessor. i met people who took a cuts and lost her jobs, like michael from

heartland, who about a press operator for 20 years, only to see his job eliminated during the downsizing. those are real people. so i set a big goal, 250,000 jobs. because i believe in wisconsin. we are not done yet, but we have come a long way. over 100,000 new jobs in the three and a half years since we have been in office. this funding more work to be done. as voters look at the contrast, i do not think they will blame us or criticize us for ending big. -- aiming at big. look at the contrast between us. in the last three years, we have created twice as many jobs as were created during the three years that my opponent was in charge of the department of commerce under governor doyle. at that time, we were 42nd in the country for job creation. off ae just come september with the best

september for private job creation in more than a decade. the gun is a good sign for the future. -- i think that is a good sign for the future. >> with the number of times that governor walker has mentioned jim doyle, i do get is clear that he would rather be running against him than me. we are different people. i am a business executive, and that is the experience i bring to this. as for being the secretary, i would like to clarify, the and employment was 4.8 percent, and we had more jobs than we have currently. governor walker is cherry picking numbers. the fact is, we are not keeping up in terms of job creation. 10 midwestern states, and we are 10th if you take the entirety of the term that he has been in office. we do need leadership and we need a real plan, a solid plan. that is my jobs plan. i have been straight from the start in saying that these are to best ideas that we need make sure that wisconsin is a thriving and growing economy.

i sat down with the number people, with michael porter, the global guerrilla on clusters, and other folks were experts in those fields. expert that i cut ties with use ideas in similar plans to great plans are about great ideas, and the more that they are used elsewhere and proven successful, that is what is going to make sure we are able wisconsin'sonsin -- economy forward. in my plan, i lay out my metrics and how people can judge me on the job. >> this is one of the things that people hate about politics, when someone says something and do something different. my opponent worked for jim , "ie, she said, quote support his policies entirely." now she says something different. she is saying the body of work is based on her time at harvard

and her personal experience, and then we found someone else had written the plan. i am all for taking good ideas. i just credit them for it. governor walker is just trying to distract from his own jobs failure, and failure of achieving the promise that he created. based on my is experience, which runs hundreds of attack ads against me. to try and question my integrity is just trying to distract from that failure on jobs. that is something that is not accurate and also something that does not reflect wisconsin's future and the plan for moving forward. >> with go to the next question from mike. thatis dmv report shows one of 85 people died -- 185 people died in drunk driving release -- related crashes

last year alone. wisconsin is the only state in the nation where i first drunk revving offenses a ticket and not a crime. the attorney general's do not support criminalizing. do you support criminalizing, and what are your ideas to deal with the problem? >> i am on record as saying that it should be a misdemeanor. not enoughthere are consequences for the first offense, and we have to make sure that there are consequences . not only is it 185 deaths, 5000 crashes that are alcohol-related. this is costing us, costing our society a lot of money along with the personal injury that causes. we have to take a tougher stance on this. by thebeen endorsed wisconsin professional police association, and i will work with law enforcement to make sure that we have in place what we need to cut down on the number of fatalities, cut down on the number of crashes.

thatlso work to make sure this is not overburden our justice system by having alternative methods to address this. we also have to make sure the people who love addiction problems are able to get treatments. right now, we do not have tough enough consequences that are going to make a difference in really addressing this. we have not moved the needle enough. december wisconsin to join the rest of the country and realize that this is something that is -- it is time for wisconsin to join the rest of the country and realize that this is something that is important. >> this is one of those tragic issues. i remember, years ago, when i was first elected, one of the most heart-wrenching cases we had to talk about was a family from an area -- our area that had lost a son because some of you have been a multiple, repeat offender. the problems are not just the numbers, it is the number of people who have been out

multiple times committing drunk driving. agree with the attorney general candidates that the first time offenders, criminalizing that is not the answer. it is going after repeat offenders, toughening up the penalties. i think this is an issue that republicans and democrats can come together and work on. for me, it is one of those were i will work with law enforcement and the police. i have endorsement of the men and women in the milwaukee police association, and the troopers association. they are the people on the road to understand that you have to crack down on the people who are repeating collectivity over and over again. -- the activity over and over again. >> governor walker has had a four years to address this. you would avoid repeat offenders if there were tougher penalties with the first offense. people need to know, right off the star, before they get into

habits that there are real consequences. >> again, it is one of those t the annualjust a governor's conference on traffic safety. we have actually seen traffic accidents without. -- go down. we're going to continue to build off of that. the waitresses that is to crackdown on repeat offenders, show the consequences are serious, particularly for those -- theback on the road way and that is who on repeat offenders. is likely to you god, let me copy story about a family. they own a small business, raised for a great kids, and, own a home. you have done everything that asked him.

-- the home that they own happens to be one of the mostlwaukee's dangerous neighborhood. they cannot sit on their front porch because of gunfire. they are prisoners in their own homes. specifically -- and give me specifics, please -- two or three reasons that the family will be safer and central city violence will be addressed if you are elected governor. first off, leaving just a few blocks away from milwaukee, being here often, and having my kids be raised nearby here, that is an issue that i have seen all too often on each of your programs in the past. it is a challenge, not just now, but in the past. one of the most important things in the past year was working with the city of milwaukee,

coming together, republicans and democrats, to support funding for the shot spotter program. we would like to expand that in the future. it is a good pilot to begin with. we can find out, with remarkable accuracy, not only were the shots were fired, but the pool police resources. -- two pool police resources. when they go on look at this to begin with, many of the individual instances in which a shot was fired, very few times do people call it in. we have to provide security and safety that a family like that needs here and across the state of wisconsin, particularly in the lucky. -- in milwaukee. issue,s a very serious and you think that even in one of our own cities, families

cannot be outside and feel safe, means we need to make changes. the things that governor walker has done has made it more difficult. to municipalities, which strains budgets in terms of providing police and fire and local services. according to the latest fbi reports, we have seen an increase in violent crimes, second in the midwest. out of 10 states, the second largest increase in violent crime. we are not doing enough to read we have to provide adequate funding to communities to fight this. mentionsrnor walker shot spotter, this was something that he would not include in his budget. he turned down the request by milwaukee to do that. it was only after pressure was put on that they resorted to partial funding. enough is not being done. i would work with law enforcement to it and if i other

ways that they can be successful, work with community groups and encourage the police to work with community groups, so that it has a grassroots .ffort and we have to improve the job situation in the central city. we know that, when we increase employment, crime goes down. it cannot be about just law enforcement, it has to be economic development. facts.n, here are the the fact is that because of our reforms, in the first year alone , $5 million. -- $25 million. they have money to add to the police department, and raises to public employees in the city of -- city of milwaukee. >> we have a lot of work to do. they have to realize that this takes a concerted effort. it is not easy work. it will be difficult work. but it means bringing people

together and it is the type of thatc/private partnership i created around education and closing the achievement gap in madison. we have 1000 teens in this program, mostly first in their family to do so. it was the schools, the boys and girls club, our universities. that is how you address those issues, bring people together. towe have three minutes left go before we transition to closing statements, so we will have one more final question. we have to shorten responses to one minute with no rebuttal time. we go to charles manson for the final question. >> i: audible to ted. >> i think we have time for a short, fun question. a personality question. you are forbidden for campaigning -- from campaigning for one day, doctors orders.

you are told to get out on two wheels. where in wisconsin are you going? who are you bringing? and why are you going there? >> would've my routes is from 108 up to the falls. i would go on that min pin over to scenic highway 35 -- and then i would pan over to scenic highway 35. and i would take my buddies and i like to go riding harleys with. >> i would head towards heartland, where i grew up. sisters, two w of my sisters and their families live. -- two of my sisters and their families live. that is a great area, and the heartland/holy hill area, one of the most evil areas of the state, and just mending time with family. nephew all the way up, that is what i would do.

>> thank you, panelists, for the questions. it is time for three-minute closing statements. governor walker, you are first. >> my first job as a kid was working at a dishwasher. it is amazing to me to think about the son of a small-town minister and a part-time secretary growing up to be the leader of this great state. for that honor, i want to thank you, the voters. i ask for the opportunity to do it again for the next four years. i want to thank the moderator and the panel and my opponent for joining us tonight, and all of you for tuning in. when i took office, wisconsin had lost 100 and 30,000 jobs. -- what hundred 30,000 jobs. -- 103000 jobs. taxes were up, tuition was up.

we had a $3.6 billion budget deficit -- billion dollar budget deficit. as i mentioned at the beginning and repeated throughout the activities, we have a september were we shall the creation of a thousand 400 new jobs in the -- saw the creation of 8400 new jobs in the state. unemployment is at a low. we ranked fifth in the nation for manufacturing jobs. than $100 million to worker training to help people get the skills that they need. billion deficit entered into a surplus, the old-fashioned way, by paying our bills off. the rainy day fund is 165 times bigger than when we took office. we took the surplus and invested it into tax cuts that are so effective that a typical family

.ill see an extra $322 we froze tuition for the first time at all of our uw campuses for two w years in a row. -- two years in a row. we want to put more money into helping cancer patients. money into mental health services than any governor in a quarter-century. helpeated a new program to people with disabilities find meaningful employment within communities. looking ahead, we have a plan to make the next four years even better, to build off the successes and make it even .etter four years from now i invite you to go to scott walker.com and look at the details. it is a plan to make sure that everyone that wants a job can find a job, help you keep more of your paycheck, learn more to earn more, and move from dependence to work. growing up as a kid, i do not rub or anyone and my class who

said, hey scott, someday, when i grow up, i want to be dependent on my government. freedom and prosperity does not come from the government. it comes from empowering people. that is the american dream. i want to help everybody live their piece of the american dream, and that is why i ask for your vote. i know wisconsin can do better. by ensuring that everyone has a fair shot, it will do better governor walker has had four years, and his approach, the push those at the top ahead of you, just is not working. we are dead last in the midwest in terms of job creation. and it is not getting any better. 2014 is on track to be the worst year in job creation of the last five years. tax cuts for millionaires and special interest is not create jobs. growing the middle class does.

if our economy had just kept pace with the rest of the country over the last three years, our economy would be $4 billion a year bigger. that is $4 billion tickets spent in local communities and businesses. to fundtax base infrastructure while reducing taxes. think about what that means to you. a better neighborhood school for your children. college that is more affordable. greater economic security in your retirement. the failure of the last four years is far too real for far too many. some familywas down has seen their real income declined by $3000. i will put politics aside and focus on what works. i do not care if an idea is a democrat or republican idea, just that it gets results. along with ensuring a fair shot for everyone, i want to change the tone. governor walker's approach, in his own words, has been to

divide and conquer. that is not the wisconsin way. we have to remember that we are all on the same team, and it should not matter whether democrat or republican, we have to put politics aside and just get the job done. havethe direction that i laid out, i know that, based on my experience with business, we can do this. we can be a top 10 driving economy, the leader in the midwest. my career has been seeing the possibilities, taking on challenges. whether it is from leading expanding the boys and girls club, serving as secretary in the department of commerce, or creating an educational initiative that has opened doors for nearly 1000 teens, i see the possibilities in the work that we can do in wisconsin to move wisconsin forward. i cannot wait to get to work as your governor. we have everything that we need

to be a growing, thriving, innovative state that is a leader across the country. on novemberr vote fourth, and to join me in building a wisconsin that works for everyone. thank you. >> that wraps up the second of two debates. candidates, -- thanks to the candidates, our panelists, and viewers. thank you and good night. >> that concludes the debate between the wisconsin gubernatorial candidates, immigrant mary burke -- democrat mary burke and republican scott walker. broadcasters work together to toduce this debate in order ensure that every citizen of wisconsin has an opportunity to hear and see the two leading candidates for governor. the debate has been sponsored by wba foundation, and aarp of

wisconsin. we would like to thank the candidates for their participation, as well as the , and panelists. remember to vote on november 4. the wisconsin the broadcaster's association, thank you and good night.