>> tonight on c-span, "q&a," richard norton smith discussing his book, "on his own terms: a life of nelson rockefeller." questions,minister's and at 10:10, ebola response. >> this week on, "q&a," our guest is author richard norton book, "on wrote the his own terms: a life of nelson rockefeller." the wealth, on thege, and power

nelson rockefeller family, the influence on the republican party over the years, and his time as governor of new york state. aboutalso talks rockefeller outside of politics, his marriage to happy rockefeller, and the murky circumstances of his death. >> richard norton smith, after 14 years of work on your book, what would you tell somebody who does not know about nelson rockefeller, who he is, what he did. ? significant, indeed historically significant, figure in a number of fields. gave him the i name of "rockefeller republicanism,"

that i would describe as existing views of tens of millions of americans who may not be aware of the phrase. nutshell, a combination of policies that are fiscally responsible and socially liberal. had ad himself that he republican head and a democratic heart. aceto -- nead esposito, who was one of rockefeller's allies, he said that he was too liberal for the conservatives and to conservative for the

democrats. middle-of-the-road politics, that is a worldview that we can hopefully get into, but it does suggest that he is not a figure consigned to the history books that he is someone who politically has relevance. something else that sets them himt that does make someone out of the 21st century, he had this in norma's confidence that every problem had a solution. he believed that passionately. that is something of a product of a generation that overcame the depression, won world war ii, was committed to winning the cold war, was committed to putting a man on the moon, was committed to building the national highway system.

the most powerful member of the most powerful family in the most powerful nation, and arguably its most powerful moment in history. all of that, for starters could win any office. he was 32 years old when franklin delano roosevelt invited him to become his latin american coordinator. during world war ii, he not only try to invent what friends capitalism," ar capitalism that was both profitable in latin america but that also had a social conscious. he anticipated the cold war. then -- heeda our anticipated our then-ally the soviet union of changing.

what we would call today as the third world that would reassess the capitalist mission. he spent a lifetime pursuing that, among all sorts of other interests. >> we need some basics. he died in what year of what age? >> he died in 1979 at the age of 70 after two rather dispiriting years as gerald ford's vice president, and as 15 dominant years as the governor of new york. >> how many times was elected governor? >> he was elected four times, that is a modern record. and you have to remember when he was elected in 1959, when he first took office, it was to be regarded as a potential president. the more so in his case, because of the resources that he

brought to the office and because of the personality. forof the hardest things any historian or biographer to do is to capture, convincingly, etherealsomething as as charisma. it is a relative term. and different generations to find it to philly. define it differently. >> how many times was he married? >> twice. it certainly affected his chances to be president. wouldd argue that he never had been nominated by the 1960.ican party after but there is no doubt in a way that today we would find very

difficult to understand. >> how long was he married to his first wife? >> over 30 years. they were married a weak effort he graduated from dartmouth, and they divorced in 1951. 1961. >> how long was he married to his second wife? >> a couple of years, or so. >> how many children did he have? children, two children by happy. >> how many brothers and sisters did he have? >> hit one sister, abby, and he had four brothers, one of them was arguably his -- certainly his closest friend. there were some who would argue maybe his only true friend. >> and his brother david is a 99

and still alive? >> yes, that is a book in and of itself. he wrote with considerable memoirsnd memoirs -- in -- i was speaking with a quintessential rockefeller toldlican, and he had been that the hardest part was writing honestly about nelson. they had a difficult relationship, particularly towards the end. >> who was nelson rockefeller's father? >> john d rockefeller, junior. he was the oil baron. was d rockefeller junior the most complicated of all the i mean, none of us

may be totally honest with ourselves, i'm not sure he may have recognize or was willing to acknowledge the degree to which his own philanthropic activities, which took a lifetime, he decided early on he was not going to go into business, he was not going to follow in his fathers footsteps, -- father's footsteps, except in the fillets -- philanthropic footsteps. he was never in any way redemptive. he was trying to make up for some of the criminal activities that had been alleged against his father and the making of standard oil, which was, of course, the world wash first great trust, and was -- the world's first great trust. the mistake in the power surrounded the rockefellers. trying to make up

for the mystique and the power surrounded the rockefellers. >> how long did it take you to write this book? 14 years? >> 14 years. >> what were the origins of the book? >> the origins of the book was iaced back to a day in 1989, was 14 or sold in august of 1968, and had earned money and had managed to get tickets as a guest of the massachusetts delegation to the republican convention in miami where i was on the floor during a rockefeller demonstration. i can go back four years before an book opens, and there was extraordinary confrontation on the second night of the 90's it before convention at the cal isace, where rockefeller

almost booed off the stage by a newly triumphant conservative force led by barry goldwater of arizona. extraordinary and rare moment in history where you can see the page be interned. i mean, the next morning, it was a different republican party. you could not know for sure where he was going to go. go you know you could never back to the old eastern establishment of the party of dewey and eisenhower. who arent our folks watching that i have known you since 1953. not 1963!o, >> 1923. >> 1863. [laughter] fascinatted by

this. i'll going to show you some video that goes to the whole issue of 14 years. 2006 nelson rockefeller book. >> the book is due to republicans -- to publishers in two years, but above all, i'm going to finish that biography of nelson rockefeller, and it should just take six years of my life. >> it will take about two or three years. >> i am up early working on a book that will take just a couple more years. by 2008,e to finish which would be the 100th anniversary of nelson rockefeller's birth. 10i have been for the last years working on a biography of nelson rockefeller. still working on the nelson

rockefeller biography. >> so here it is. [laughter] was it worth the time? >> oh yes. it was an intellectual adventure of a lifetime. start offy that you writing a biography and you and up writing and autobiography. -- an autobiography. one of the reason it took 14 years was because you obviously have an obligation to your readers to be as objective, to -- you want to be passionate about what you do and dispassionate about how you do literally took a while to outgrow that mindset that a 14-year-old took on the convention floor in 1968, but

then again, you don't want to go get ridther extreme and of some kind of objectivity, however you define that. that takes a while. there was the best of reasons why it took as long as it did. was writinguse i this at the same time that the rockefeller archive's in particular were opening paper. there were millions and millions of paper at the rockefeller archives. in the course of those 14 years, extraordinary things became available for the first time. i lost a year, you could see lost a year,saw the archive open something called "family and friends." hundreds and hundreds of boxes of paper that was pure gold.

after reading those, i tour up the first 75,000 words of my paper. it included 100 or more letters from the first wife of nelson rockefeller, known as "todd," to nelson. todd was extraordinarily private. i am not sure now that she would appreciate this invasion of her privacy, as she has been gone close to a decade now, i believe. on the other hand, it is the first time that she has been able to speak for herself. the letters are just remarkable. they are funny. they are wise. and sometimes they are painful. wrote on the train the picture you have in your book where she is on the far right of the picture and she is on the far left, and one thing you notice right away when you see it is the height rid her height compared to his height. what was the difference in height?

mean, she -- i port, and itss lists her height at six foot one , and-- six foot one inch her weight as 100 and 50 pounds. you can find it offensive. are edited versions of some of nelson's correspondences with his parents. example, this was the unedited version. so nelson, a few weeks before their wedding, is reeling off to his mother all of the reasons why he is in love with todd. and it is very sort of clinical, and then he says on the negative side, it is just the fact that she is slightly taller than me.

and she is a year older than me, and is -- and she isn't particularly good-looking, which strikes me as a strange thing for a young bridegroom on the verge of his wedding to say to anyone, including his mother. but that suggest that they were both ambivalent, i think it is fair to say, more than most young couples on the verge of betrothal. and she writes this extraordinary letter in which i i don't know if i am in love or not, i just know that i don't want to be hurt. if you come to me within a year of our marriage and says that you are in love with another woman, it implicitly someone who is better looking than i, it would break my heart." analogy, and if you

are watching a hitchcock movie, and you were in the audience and you were shouting at the screen, don't go in that room, that is how it is like. but they were married. they had five children. twins, unplanned. that was in 1938. and when the twins were born, there were five children, nelson commissioned a worker to build a guesthouse on the estate. >> where is that? >> 30 miles north of new york city on the hazard river. the point is, in 1938, nelson moves into the guesthouse. he took his meals with his family, but he slept in the guesthouse. a permanent guest, if you will, at his own home. in the very real sense, in the fullest sense of the word, came to an end.

late 1930's.he now, of course, the public had no idea of this. when the divorce was announced generation later, it really came as a shock to most people. 1961?t was he doing in >> he was governor. he was governor of new york. and he was a very successful governor. it was assumed that he was the front runner for the 1964 republican presidential nomination. >> how many times did he run for president? [laughter] >> depends on how you define "run." inflirted with the idea 1963, in 19 64 he went all out, in 1968 he said he would not run and he ran, and there is very little doubt that he hoped to

before he was picked by gerald ford to be his vice president. >> if you had to name the one thing he did as governor or as vice president that benefited the nation, not new york, but the nation, what would that be? just one thing. >> i think it was the example he set. it is particularly valuable, not only in the context of then, even more today. primaryto say, "the function of government is to convert problems into opportunities." now stop and think. he did not have an ideology. he really didn't. thatreat jack lemond said nelson rockefeller was not a liberal, he was a baptist. he was raised in a very baptist household and he had his

conscious about giving back. states as theted rich and powerful rockefeller family, rich and powerful. the united states had an obligation to the rest of mankind. view, "ifat, in his you don't have good health or good education, i feel that society has let you down." now imagine that transposed to our own politics. rockefeller was to the left of barack obama's residency -- presidency. he operated in a different climate, but imagine a republican among other things, who believed in society, and secondly, believe we should collectively together as a

family should have an obligation to provide universally the best possible health care, and the best possible education. >> where are the archives? >> the archives are at -- great outside they are just the main estate gates at a house that was built for nelson's stepmother. we canher, whom i hope talk about because she is such a pivotal part of the story, abby 1948.eller, died in to the muffled horror of his he remarried. uncle martha, as nelson referred to her, and whom he was quick to

court, would eventually contribute over $10,000 to nelson's political campaign. uncle martha conditioned e-house house locatedd a on the highest point of the estate overlooking the hudson, and it was the place were junior built a house for his father. >> but the archives are there and how extensive are they, excuse me, and how extensive are they? >> i made a number of visits to the archives. nelson's is the largest single not only are they the rockefeller family archives, and if you want to study the

history of philanthropy in america, you have to go to the rockefeller archives. they contain, for example, all of the documents of the families but all of the board member decisions. so it is a huge, world-class operation. they were in norman lay helpful in seeing to it that it did not last more than 14 years. the house in which they are located, it was decided that the archives would be located there, and it turned out that martha had this grand house till. she never spent a night there. there were two rolls-royce is in the garage, but other than that, there was no signs of occupancy, and it turns out the house led itself beautifully to the purpose of archival facility. >> 14 years doing is, random house is your publisher, did you get an initial advance to do

this, and how much did this book do you think cost you? think anyone would be upset if i -- the original advancement was $50,000. but now, you have to remember, random house gave me something much more valuable than money. they give me time. one ever pressured alongo, can we hurry this , we are blank years behind schedule to rea. i am grateful for that. i put in a quarter of a million dollars of my own money. -- first of travel all, new york city is an expensive place to do research,

and new york was my base as i went up to the property. interviews which entailed a great number of travel, i took about 60,000 ands of primary source historical material, diaries, letters, memos, you name it, most of which, again, have not been available in the past. mean, i consider myself fortunate. i am not complaining. was raising$250,000 the question, which is out there amy, but it made me think about -- i consider myself to have been very lucky. one, that random house was interested in the project at all, and two, you have to remember the first six of those 14 years i was working

full-time. first at the gerald ford library museum in michigan, and then starting two startups. and then working at the university of kansas and the abraham lincoln library and museum in springfield. >> one more question and we will go to politics. in the back, you mentioned john mcconnell for credit for maybe saving your life. >> well, that is no exaggeration. [laughter] i believe passionately the authors should stay out of their texts. let the reader in form their own opinion. i guess you could say i let down my guard and wrote rather personally in these acknowledgments. of 2010, i had been invited by a number of folks very kindly to various homes for

and no one heard from me for several days after that. and this was a following tuesday on november 30. it was a tuesday and calls have been going back and forth, and apparently among this informal network of friends who were curious and then concern, anyway, and john, who was a very distinguished speechwriter in both bush and ministrations, and before that for dan quayle, john lived in my neighborhood in arlington. and he said i will go and check on him. and he came and knocked on the door, and whatever he saw was that hently concerning insisted that i accompany him to the hospital. immediately. and it was a wonderful hospital, virginia medical center hospital center about a mile away.

thought, oh, and i my god, i'm going to send two hours filling out paperwork, there was no paperwork, and there were no two hours, it turns out i had had a heart attack. there were two blood clots. it was sheer luck that none of them had moved. i was told at the time that i had lost the spleen in the kidney and could expect to use -- expect to lose the use of my left leg. was it turns out the spleen logged out, but in washington the last thing we need is spleen. was well aware of how lucky i was, but certainly how grateful i was and if there any reasons that i should feel grateful, my first conscious

thought that night in the hospital was i can die because i have to finish this book, you know? and then i wondered if there was a death curse on nelson rockefeller biographers. i had a very prestigious predecessor in this field, aged woman by the name of cary reich, and he published the first volume in 1996, which covered the story up to nelson's election a senator. it was a great resource for rockefeller students. tragically,denly, at the age of i think 48 or 49, he was diagnosed two years later ncreatic cancer and died two weeks later. i can be forgiven on this project. about 30 minutes into

a 90 minute conversation, and i still have not asked you about the last chance after -- jacked her. -- chapter. is us go to 1960, and here the gop convention in 1960. the gop convenes in chicago, nelson rockefeller of earlyrk nominates in the hours. his proposals for the republican platform, agreed to buy vice president in, touched off a storm of controversy. mr. nixon's overwhelming position was rose beyond early expectations. >> so you see that and think what? >> first of all, it is a remarkable fact that as late as 1960, richard nixon, the

overwhelming favorite and unchallenged for the nomination, was in hiss felt it political interest in the middle of the night without telling anyone on his staff to fly to new york for a secret -- turnout to be a six or eight hour meeting -- at nelson rockefeller's apartment. tried to convince rockefeller to get on the ticket as vice president, and when that failed, he tried to meet rockefeller's objections on the platform, which involved -- revolves overwhelmingly around two issues, seemingly opposing one, a stronger civil rights plank. that was an issue that always mattered to his family and to nelson. we will hopefully talk about that later. but secondly, he wanted a stronger military defense plank. he wanted the party, in effect, to repudiate the policy of

fiscal restraint on the budget, it including the military budget. in a terribly awkward position, yet it was believed that nelson rockefeller and the party he represented, this,e clout to require but at least to be taken seriously. by 1960, thatat was probably not the case, it was a matter of perception. it was fed by what we would call today is the mainstream media. andhat did richard nixon nelson rockefeller think of each other? >> it is a complex -- they respected each other as rivals. there were certainly any number of occasions when i think each man tried the patience of the

anyr, i live in after eisenhower did mr. issue allies. enough, during the eisenhower administration, they were allies. when eisenhower was overwhelmingly reelected, rockefeller rights to nixon, saying "thanks to you and the president, the republican party is emerging as the great liberal party of the future." 1956, people forget that it was not very goldwater the broke the solid south, it was dwight eisenhower. in 1956, dwight eisenhower carried almost 46% of the african-american vote and the majority of southern electors, so because the party turned to goldwater and then in effect on

to nixon and reagan and gingrich, because the party took that turn in 1964, it does not mean that that had to be different. it could have been a very different history. >> where did you get the title of the book? >> in 35 years of writing books, i have got a title that i wanted. from the very beginning it is one thing that never change. he in thiswas picture on the cover? >> he would be in his mid-50's. "on his own terms," seemed to me to sum up his viewpoints on life, on politics, on women, and on life and on death. a quick story behind that that goes to the heart of who he was, because it took me much of those 14 years to reach what i thought

was an adequate understanding of -- heery elusive figure was incredibly close to his mother abby aldrich rockefeller, and like i said, she died in 1948, and i was told by someone very close to him that he kept her ashes in his house. happy rockefeller was kind enough to spend half a day with our --d give me a tw both of the big house and the house he built for their retirement. every rockefeller house is built with the same floor plan. on the left is the mother's room, and on the right is the father's room. tour, ihe end of the

see this funerary urn. so i relate the story to her, and she says, all that story is true. that there wasd a funeral and the ashes were interred somewhere else on the a stay, and grabbed a handful. now, i don't know many people who would do that, and it tells me two things. two sides of his character. one, there is almost a childlike impetuous nest. he was utterly unselfconscious ess.mpetuousn he was utterly un-self-conscious. but the other thing that it also suggests that a sense of entitlement that goes beyond the norm. how many of us would entertain for a moment the notion at such a time and place of possessing

one's parent in that way? that is on his own terms. he believed he could have life. , and i believe death, on his own terms. picked up the quotes at the beginning of each chapter? >> i did. >> i will begin with the quote captain, who was he? >> he was someone who was left of center. first of all, new york was a newspaper town when nelson rockefeller went into politics in the 1950's. i don't know how many papers there were, but he was a newspaper town, and it generated firstjournalists who were

of all great reporters, but secondly, political analyst. >> he is long gone? >> he is long gone. " there came down upon rockefeller from those galleries a howl of hatred which was not of an opinion but of a human being who embodied everything these people had hated for 20 years. he just a there and began his prose in the armor of a magnificent contempt. who cares what he said. it was what he was that night. july 14, 1954, journalist referred to it as bastille day in reverse. exactly a dispute ,hat has gone away, i suppose one that perhaps has been at

least temporarily healed in the wake of 9/11. thefact of the matter is, republican party, going back to 1912, the theodore roosevelt and william howard taft splitted us ran a third-party, progressive liberal, or we would campaign,ublican throughout the century there has been a divide. it was more ideological, it was , the conservatives in the midwest, for example tend to be isolationists in terms of foreign policy. the eastern liberals -- the eastern establishment -- tended to be internationalists, much more, for example, much more willing to get into world war ii before pearl harbor. they also, however, were divided about their reaction to the new deal. wereastern liberals

willing to accommodate the changes -- a much more active role for government. west of thetives appellations, for the most part, -- appalachians, for the most part, held onto their hardshell, if you will. you know, the liberals believed -- and this is critical, nelson rockefeller, as i said, had no ideology -- he believed first and foremost that a problem should be taken care of through the private sector. if the private sector would not or could not, then he would look at the partnership for government. the idea being the eastern establishment, which first of robust,ed a strong, growing, private economy, whatever it took, the government could be an agent is that. that is an idea that is as old as bubblegum.

that, you could not pay for the compassion and you could not afford to do all of these social programs. they thoughtwhat was the horse before the car, and they felt the new deal was acting in reverse. >> let us go to some video from the convention in 1964, when they nominated barry goldwater. terror, they encourage rigidity. these are people who have nothing in common with americanism. the republican party must repudiate these people. >> extremism. [laughter] then as now, a topic of much

discussion. first of all, you have to have a little bit of contact. that convention came one month passed 19past 9054 -- 64 civil rights act, that was passed with republican votes and that nelson rockefeller strongly supported. in fact, he wanted a voting rights act at the same time, a yearould come about later. barry goldwater, who must be said, had personally been a leader in desegregating not only in family's department store phoenix but also the arizona national guard, nevertheless, goldwater was one of those it one ofindividualist -- those from the rugged schools, and he

did not campaign for the civil rights of african-americans. -- it waseneration like a volcano. york that about new you hated, everything about the eastern establishment and the media, which exercise a much greater centralized, dominant position -- earlier in the evening, dwight eisenhower, by , he gets up and in an attempt to foster unity, mentions in a throwaway line "sensation-seeking columnists who could not care more about our part -- who could not care less about our party." people started saying down with walter whitman, down with walter

whitman. a few hours later, their word delegates on the floor -- there were delegates on the floor shouting at nelson rockefeller. it was a reference in the fact -- to the fact that nelson rockefeller had divorced his first wife and had married a woman who in the press had abandoned her children in order to marry him. >> what were the circumstances about the divorce and the remarriage to happy rockefeller, and what is her full name? , who is married to james murphy. exactly when the relationship began is murky. i believe that began earlier than has been suggested until now. >> what is that mean? >> by that i mean the mid-1950's.

most accounts suggest in the 1958 campaign when she worked in a rockefeller's uber notorious rockefeller's gubernatorial campaign. one of the things that i discovered in the course of research of this book is a year went by between when nelson wanted to announce a divorce and the actual announcement. there were people around him who even then -- there were people had talked himho out of getting a divorce before he ran for governor, they argued that it would kill his political career -- and he reluctantly went along. left to his own devices, he intended to end his marriage to todd, and, if at all possible, happy murphy.

culture. different -- 10,000adulterers people turned out for the world premiere of cleopatra a month after the rockefeller-murphy marriage. that is actually an important part of nelson's unwitting legacy, because the fact of the matter is, beginning with his divorce and remarriage, and sort advancing torly the circumstances surrounding his death, the media took a whole different approach to distinguishing what was public and what was private. and we could argue over whether that has been good for democracy, but there is little doubt he played a very significant role.

think theon't circumstances surrounding his divorce and remarriage would have nearly as great an impact. but you have to remember, the '63,lican party in 1962, culturallyso a conservative party in the country. jack kennedy could not believe that rockefeller would risk everything by getting a divorce. he told ted graham that no man could ever love love more than politics. which probably tells you more about him than anything else. um up thees som prevailing view. >> when you spoke with happy rockefeller,, did she tell you anything about the relationship

-- happy rockefeller, did she tell you anything about the relationship? >> yes, she was very candid about it. bill scranton, the former governor of pennsylvania, recently deceased, close to rockefeller personally, politically, and certainly because of his own mainline connection, he knew both rockefellers and ran for president in 1964. he knew both todd and happy. he thought todd was very intelligent and he liked her, thate always thought she and nelson were mismatched. don't make the mistake of equating warmth with sex. nelson needed warmth. is a very warm woman. happy could give him really what todd could not. that is a factor. the thing about the whole

relationship that i think this book really breaks ground, and it is only possible because of the passage of time, if you go back and read coverage at the time and read coverage since, every single account of the rockefeller divorce and remarriage it's couched -- it's couched in political terms. it talks about what it cost him and why on earth did he take that risk. what no one has ever asked until now, and obviously what i was interested in getting from happy rockefeller, was to forget politics for just a moment. what were the emotional compensations that nelson got that made him overlook whatever risks? told me that they never discussed the political consequences. i believe her. verylso told me something

poignant and shrewd at the same time. she went to new hampshire and campaigned in 1964. she was in the not so early stages of her pregnancy. hampshire, and for the most part people were very friendly, and she said you had no idea how many people wanted to feel the baby. that there were people who were anything but friendly. she was standing on the steps of a church, and these women come mrs. murphy, you have not brought your children with you today." which was about as nasty as you could get. and she says she'll learn something that will. she said whenever someone he says something horrible to you, you counter it with a comment. -- couple that. y, that is a "m lovely dress you've got on. "

it disarms -- it is an interesting observation and dispose a popular notion that this woman was totally under first in politics. nelson rockefeller had the whole estate in her judgment. sheill believe, although downgrades her role in this, i think she was a pivotal part of his decision to move on the abortion issue. new york repealed its old abortion laws and when the legislature to cu years later moved to repeal the repeal under years later, moved to repeal the repeal under pressure from the church, he stopped that action. roe v wade came about to cu years later, he upheld -- upheld a later, he

woman's right to choose. how old would happy rockefeller be today? >> happy would be 88. >> how many of all of his children are still alive? >> he had five children by todd, and two by happy. of those eight, six are still living. , born int son, rodman 1932, and died several years ago, and of course many years ago, there was a tragedy, almost a greek tragedy, it was like three days after they had announced that they were separating, that the word came from today's indonesia that michael rockefeller, the youngest son from his first marriage, and the one that everyone agrees to whom he was the closest and for whom he

entertained the highest hopes, was lost. >> how old was he? ormichael would have been 22 23. >> did anyone find out what had happened? >> no. as horrible as the experience was at the time, i think the family has been haunted to some butee and exploited certainly haunted ever since by continual efforts to dredge this up and to spin all sorts of horrific theories about how he may have died. >> you noticed i have not asked you about the last juschapter. >> i did notice. >> let us go to 1968 were he made an announcement for president. >> today i announce my active candidacy by the nomination for

the republican party for the presidency of the united states. [applause] i shall do everything i can, with all of my energy, now and in the weeks before the national convention, to bring before the people the dimensions of the problems as i see them, and how i believe as a free people we can meet them. unityeve firmly that true is forged by full examination of the facts, and the free interchange of honest convictions, and very simply, by taking this course at this time, i feel i can best serve my country. [applause]

is off the subject right there, but as i watched him reading, i go back to the very first thing you wrote, the very first two words, you wrote, "nelson rockefeller suffered from dyslexia." >> that is right. >> he did not hear the word until he was 50 years old. he had always thought he had a low iq and intellectual deficiency. so he took his mother's advice from a very early age, and that was always to surround yourself with people who are smarter than you, which is to explain the task forces and the experts and the panoply of gurus who surrounded rockefeller. spell, he was not a natural speaker from a text, but he compensated. he learned to compensate. he was extraordinary

off-the-cuff. he was really one of the grey, as i say, street campaigners of , as i say, great street campaigners of all time. 19 68 is fascinating because one month before he got into the 1968 is fascinating because one month before he got into the race, lyndon johnson pulled out of the race, and martin luther king was assassinated, and by the way, one of the things i discovered, he was very close to dr. king. he had come to the rescue of -- king'smingham and financially,usade , meant thatcourse

nelson called mrs. king and the follow-up was that he sent his advance men and organized and paid for dr. king's funeral. >> when was the first known? >> he did not want it known. he said to the advanced man that i talked with that we don't want to take advantage of the family's suffering. >> so when was it first published? >> when he died. there was a little story to that effect, but the other critical thing that happened between during that month was on april 23, he was smuggled with happy into the johnson white house. i talked to the man who took him in and took him out. >> who was that? >> larry temple. he is with the johnson foundation out. but then he was a young staff member.

they had a very -- >> he was a democrat. >> oh yes, he understood he was not going to change parties. humphries --son humphriesroached -- approached nelson regarding the campaign. use athe way, you johnson, and it says that nelson's wife is not going to let him get off the ground, that was in 1964. >> that was part of the political realities of the time. it was funny, because people also have the contemporary connections.

degree great climactic, epic battle of these 64 campaign was goldwater versus rockefeller in california. boasters, believe it or not, there was a poll but said that 70% of california republicans considered themselves moderates through the but it was the primary campaign to end all primary co campaigns. the great political strategist from the several campaigns, including ronald reagan, told me that were almost turned it around were , mostlyamerican voters in los angeles, 50,000 of whom reregistered as republicans to vote in the primary for nelson rockefeller. that was indicative of the appeal that rockefeller had to minority americans.

and 60 --over for him him him ain 68? twofold.oblem was, one, it was a conservative party that was moving further and further to the right. they were simply uncomfortable with nelson rockefeller's positions. secondly was his failure to understand the difference between running for the nomination and running in the fall. every time he ran for president, he ran in november campaign. a campaign reaching out to the general electorate. but it is delegates that select the nominee. the great line -- he had an ironic sense of humor, which he

mostly controlled. someone asked him at the end of 68, at was nominated -- after nixon was nominated. it was a young reporter, who said it is a resume, and said, why have you been nominated for president? and rockefeller looked at him and said, young man, have you ever been quite republican national convention? >> did you ever meet him? >> three times, and passing. -- in the passing. in 1968. at the ford white house. we had a 45 minute meeting with him. it was one of those people -- if you look at pictures, certainly when he first ran for governor,.

he looked younger. to catch up with him, which is one reason why the later years were increasingly difficult. >> at the end of his life, much money was he worth? >> the estate was valued, for taxation purposes, at around hundred 15 or 20 $20 million. -- 215 or toward her $20 million. the book was from trust from his father and grandfather. the only time in his life that he made money, oddly enough, was at the end of his life in an art reproduction business. fight purists -- which will -- whichurists horrified purists.

distorted what is called the nelson rockefeller collection, and was selling reproductions. mentioned earlier about civil rights and his interest in it, , we have video1 of a conversation between nelson rockefeller and richard nixon , andi have heard you say the last 14 years, that your attic or chapter is your best. chapter is your best. >> it is the one that i am proudest of, because i think it is the first time, first of all, i have the benefit of perspective. 40 years have gone by. it is a different culture. for example -- atticare we get there, was what? >> it was a correctional

facility in new york, east of rochester and buffalo. it was overcrowded, disproportionately populated by african-americans, underfunded. >> he is governor. >> he is governor. interestingly enough, he had brought in a man namedr t -- to run a new department of corrections and reform the system. but new york was in a budget crunch. the two priorities collided. people,s hard to make 40 years later, understand, immerse themselves in the culture of 1971. culture, -- prison

not only the prison culture, but only the real sense of grievance sense ofly the real grievance held by african-americans about the justice system in its entirety. but also a culture in which, once the takeover occurred, part of this was just fate. rockefeller was out of state, he was in washington, d.c.. it was not a part of the unfolding process as it took place the first day of the takeover. the critical decision that was not made, the critical decision oswalds walled, -- prevented from being made, was using force to immediately .etake the prison the fact is that there was president for this in new york state. was faced with

identical situation in a prison takeover, and you don't be steps that rockefeller took, that the state would not negotiate, and eventually sent troops and and -- waslaim for it acclaimed for it. -- howops were sent in many troops were sent in? >> there were hundreds of prisoners involved. there were 43 that died in the retaking of the prison. who retook it? >> 11 were security guards and the rest for prisoners. who retook it? >> than a backup a bit. the criticism against rockefeller is twofold. the takeover, which was badly

botched, and the argument is made that if rockefeller had been there, gone on bc and, at the very least, he could've prevented things -- he had representatives that were there were beating him information and so on. -- beating him information and so on. the negotiations involve the number of outside observers. today, it would not happen. you were not inviting people ake william, who clearly had political agenda of his own, to be a outside observer. >> a liberal activist. it, in thed of current sterile tradition. darrow tradition. you would not invite in tv cameras to observe this.

strategically, i begin strong ase could be made that -- strong case could be made that, had there been a force applied originally -- a part of the prison was retaken. oswald believed he was a negotiator, editor that he could not negotiate. but listen to a >> little of the conversation between him and general rockefeller. the courage that you showed, it was right, i do not do what the paper says. do it that way, because if you are granted amnesty in this case , you are about prisons in an uproar all over the country. >> that's right. >> it's a tragedy. >> i only called you because i

want to alert you that we are going in. when we went in, we could not tell that all of the hostages would be killed and maybe two or 300 prisoners. the whole thing was led by the blacks. >> worldly prisoners that were more all the -- prisoners that were killed blacks? >> off and, yes. yes. hand, the only did it when they were attacking our people. otherwise, we recaptured all be cellblocks without shots, and no troopers were wounded. well, one was, in the leg. >> what are you hearing? >> in some ways, rockefeller at his worst. he is telling the president what

he things he wants to hear. back up just a bit. amnesty, they talked about. that became the issue around which this revolved. the prisoners who had taken over the facility submitted a list of demands. .arious lists of demands they included, among other things, the right to fly to a non-imperialist country. and amnesty. the latter was pretty quickly dismissed. many of the demands were met. together,er is not spent a day, went through the list, and most of the prisoner demands -- which, by the way, were perfectly legitimate. one of the problems of looking is that for most people, that amount, it was the first time there were exposed to how horrible conditions were in

those facilities. and then people conflated before the horror ofy -- the facility with rockefeller's refusal to go and the retaking. , to they overlooked was rockefeller, the matter of principle, which was amnesty. are granted amnesty, he believed, or if he went to the first thing is they would demand that he would come into the cellblocks with them. then they would be asking for the president. what were the long-term consequences if government gave in? >> we still have not talked about the last chapter. we are going to. first of all, there is some video that we have found that shows how the rockefeller name lives on. this has to do with some hip-hop artists. >> my mom with to prison in

1991. my mother, 1991. momma ends up serving embedded droid minimum sentence of 14 years. 2002.her gets out in that is 11 years on a 14 year sentence. that happened all across the hood. rockefeller laws are unjust laws that have been on the books for 30 years. they take nonviolent offenders and mocked them up for a very long time. -- lock them up for every long time. people who are guilty of abusing themselves, they go to jail for up to 20 years. >> the rockefeller drug laws. >> that is a part of the legacy. put it in context.

this is a dark side of his conviction that every problem had a solution, and that included drugs. he told a friend juan berry, before the laws were introduced, you know, i wasted $1 billion trying to eliminate the drug scourge. there have been two separate rockefeller programs to attack drugs. both of them failing. on the third try, he took this punitive approach. people gasped at the time. heard --ing, as you first-time offenders typically were sent up for 15 years. and the law enforcement was all but precluded from plea-bargaining. approach to aic problem that appeared to be insoluble.

is, if youting thing -- ifwrence rockefeller, you talk to lawrence rockefeller, he believed that if nelson had served a fifth term, realizing that the third program had failed, the red that a fourth. -- there would have been a fourth. call it a strength, quality weakness, he was incapable of knowledge -- acknowledging that there were problems that could not be solved. he -- that sometimes the only rational response was to do nothing. that was not in his vocabulary. 26.ooking at chapter the title of the chapter is the day of the dead.

have talked about this a lot, but how important is this chapter of this book is done what people expect. -- taste on what people expect. >> there are people who will look at it first, rent or noncurrent. numeral people who will look at it to decide if i am honest -- korean or non-prurient. there are people who will look editor decide if i am honest. whether i am a part of the cover-up, in effect. thate to the conclusion the historically significant aspect of nelson rockefeller's death is the cover-up that was improvised that night by a man w, hishugh morro communication director, who thought, at the time, that he

would protect the family from embarrassing revelations regarding the fact that rockefeller, at the time of his death, was with a woman not his wife. did,morrow unintentionally, and with the best of intentions, produced the worst of result. this is a post-watergate world, and there are first rate reporters. more out there investigating the discrepancies, and crack severe appear.corrects unfortunately, for a generation of americans -- sadly, i think -- it defined nelson rockefeller. time.the advantage of

30 plus years, i have the opportunity to talk to a number more candido were they had better the past. i went through joe, a a speechwriter for rockefeller, a wonderful man and a great writer, a great scholar of world war ii. joe, in his memoir, which was published just after all of this , clearly pulled his punches, and appropriately so. there are questions of taste and loyalty. he had been a part of the rockefeller inner circle. i had an opportunity to go through all of his notes, and i was not interested in peeping through the keyhole, either. there is one historically significant question that needs to be answered. did nelson rockefeller died needlessly that night -- die

needlessly that night? >people do not know is that rockefeller was dying. that he had very serious heart problems. he knew he was dying. -- heknowledged as much had acknowledged as much to members of his family before he died. it is entirely possible he would have died that night, wherever he was. on that day, he had been putting his house in order in any number of ways. a series ofng on art books, one of which was about to be published. late in the afternoon, he left the room at 5600, the rockefeller office, went to the buckley school for a fundraiser to be addressed by henry

kissinger. his sons both offended the buckley school. -- attended the buckley school. i don't do people who were there and talked about how great he people who talked to were there talked about how grey he seemed. he was clearly not well. he went on, had dinner. i talked to mrs. rockefeller, and most of them difficult for her to relive the evening. was that he did not want to die in front of his boys, corrupted or the apartment. -- drop dead at the apartment. you have to remember that his mother had died of a massive heart attack at the ability for a perfect weekend with her family. -- at the end of a perfect weekend with her family.

that is the death that he wanted when i said up on his own terms. she also told me that she heard him pick up the phone and called megan, who had joined his staff as vice president and who had been working as the head of an editorial team on this series of books. it was very clear to other that they were a part of it romantic relationship. she was 25 at the time. and she lived in an apartment three doors down 54th street from the rockefeller townhouses. they were twin townhouses at 13 and 15 west 54th. that is where, according to the story, they met, were working on this book. he had a heart attack, died

instantly. it was reported that the police found him on the floor, fully -- that was the story that was given out to the press. morrow, for reasons that we he wasscussed, said that stricken at room 5600. reason, claimed that he had no history of heart disease, which is simply wrong. and of course, literally, there were press going to the rca building, expecting a body to be brought down. the whole thing unraveled over the weekend. , 35importance of that years later, is this.

mar night, in my opinion, ked a transformation as great as the second night in the cow palace marked the transformation . party, it a political was the way that journalists covered the private lives of politicians. you can draw a line from january 26, 1979, to gary hart and the monkey business. and anthony weiner, you name it. i believe that, beginning with and it isork times" important to know why they did what they did. i interviewed someone at the time, who shall remain nameless,

who was close to rockefeller, who told me that he had a call from "the times." they said, you people have never lied to us before. we are sufficiently outraged that we have five reporters and we are story subjecting the non-one call to electronic analysis -- 911 call to electronic analysis. and with the information, and confidential source, there is a missing hour between when the call was made in the story was put out. the whole story revolves around what happened during the missing hour. it was strongly intimated to me call, wasall, the 911 not made by megan, but was made by a second woman who lived in her building.

a prominent journalist. i asked to talk to her, and she declined. >> did you talk to megan? >> she did not respond. those are really the only two people -- i didn't want 50 interviews, and they are the only people who declined. i did 150 interviews, and they are the only people who declined. by his ownerson, admission, was joe, the more advanced man, the ultimate fixer . man.y competent his codename was little caesar. and you could be trusted to take care of anything. -- he could be trusted to take care of anything. he told me that he was one of three people who knew what happened that night. he would not go into detail, but he dropped clues.

i subsequently learned from friends of is that the story that he had told over the years is, in fact, not true. but he told people, close friends, in later years, that he himself had actually gone to 54th street as a part of an emergency effort to clean up the dress the to re body. >> the body was without clothes? >> that is what i was told by the paramedic. >> you are naming jim? he is still alive today. >> had a distinguished career in medicine. and here is the remaining, if you well, mystery, because there is a clear discrepancy between

his account of what he found, which i find completely credible , and the original story about by the police -- put out by the police. and the missing link just may be one other source, who indicated that there was a man, unfortunately deceased, a , a lifelongessor new yorker, who taught a class at john jay college of criminal justice in new york. one night, to debbie members of his class, police, overcome a ride home. was 54thpproached street, they began reminiscing about that night, and suggested that, in fact, they were called not to 13 west 54th street to 25 -- but to 25eet

west 54th street. and that the remains were moved from 25 to 13. true.ot know if that is i think that it fits. my approach to it is as a cold case. i think that the historical significance lies in the fact that, based on what i have learned, that historical question that i mentioned earlier. i believe nelson rockefeller died instantly. i do not believe he could have been saved. what about not believe anyone was responsible that evening. i do not believe anyone was responsible that evening. realhe only other historical significance, and it is lasting, is the impact on journalism. >> you quote happy rockefeller

in the book, heading up one of the sections. "once, a small creature came into my world. he took the largest fortune in the world and decided to enjoy it." did you say that to you? >> -- didn't she say that to you? [applause] did.she i understood, and the time i spent with her, much of what rockefeller found irresistible in this woman, including a kind of wisdom. i pointed out that she did not go to college, like lots of women of her class at that time. but she is a lifelong reader, a voracious reader, especially of history and of literature. -- on to that b nd that, there is the

streetsmarts, and instinctive grasp of human motives. you can understand why he relied on her judgment of people. >> this book is 14 years in the making. " on his own terms" is the title. if you have something final to say, you can, but i want to finish by showing a video clip of your first appearance on this network, because you had a tremendous impact on this network on history as your help guide us through these years. , and again, but may mention, it is "on his own terms : the life of nelson rockefeller." you won't wake new city. best you are on to a new city. what are you going to do? move back to grand rapids michigan, or the next six years of my life is neatly

programmed out. writinge working on in -- and writing a biography of gerald ford. [applause] here you were about 21 years ago. thank you for joining us. >> your library is located where? >> here in iowa, west of davenport. we have not been untouched by the flood. but i want to add, and be grateful for the opportunity, that we are open and have been open to the flood. for tourismd word in the midwest generally, a lot of people think that everything is underwater, and that is not true. there are people in the tourism industry who are hurting.