bad. he does not have good problem-solving managers to regulate all the things they want to regulate. jack in wisconsin. check out our campaign 2014 website with information about , and you cantes view past debates. that is going to be our chauffeur today on thursday, on "washington journal -- our show for today on thursday, "washington journal." the event will feature david cohen, outlining the strategy to undermine the islamic state's financial foundation. hope you have a great thursday and we will see you tomorrow morning at 7:00 eastern, 4:00 a.m. pacific. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute,

which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

>> the audience at the argument -- carnegie endowment here's , talking abouten the strategy to finance isis. in a future piece yesterday, the right that every morning david cohen descends into a cavelike complex in the bowels of the treasury department to pour through hundreds of pages of leaves from reports to polish threat assessments to try to demonstrate -- penetrate the islamic state, capable of producing 50,000 barrels of oil

a day. so david cohen surely here at the carnegie endowment. ottawa a gunman shot a soldier at the war memorial in ottawa and fired shots in parliament and he himself was killed as well. we get an update from this morning's "washington journal" and we will be back live wednesday event gets underway. host: good morning to you. guest: i was ensconced in my office and looking at the scene from various that disappoints. i didn't see the shots everybody else was feeling.

people talking about hundreds of people leaving the building and heading south. but things are back to normal to a certain extent. the parliament has been open, and is scheduled to open at 10:00. we want to see whether the sergeant at arm's who shot dead the gunman will be joining the speakers parade, a ceremonial they where you have solemnly go through the whole on the way to the chamber. kevin vickers will be held as a hero if he joins the grade, as he normally does. he took this guy down. host: for those unfamiliar with his role on parliament hill, talk about the job of sergeant at arms. guest: overall head of security. a royal canadian mounted.

a a very impressive man. he sits in a ceremonial role. he has their and would have guarded the prime minister if he burst into the house of commons. the house was in session when the shooting happened. host: a picture posted on twitter yesterday. he has been hailed for taking down the shooter. what do we know about the shooter and the motivation the shooter had? guest: we do not know motivation. the shooter was born michael joseph hall and changed his name. bolivian father, french-canadian mother, a federal civil servant. he was in trouble with the law a number of times. he was charged with attempted bank robbery and other threats on he got one day in jail

top of the 66 days he served. there is no indication, no firm islamtion from him as to was a motivating factor. but the u.s. officials are pointing this out to us, that he was from an islamic background. host: how careful are they in making any connection to canada's role against the islamic state in iraq and syria? with: the implication is the attack on monday in quebec, where a soldier was run over by who did have sympathies with isis, he had the isis symbol on his facebook page.

he said we're not going to be intimidated by this. the application of an attempted intimidation but we do not know what the ultimate problem is. >> good morning. an directormuasher of the middle east program. i want to welcome you to carnegie and thank you for joining us for this timely discussion on u.s. efforts to disrupt the financial network that support islamic state of iraq and the levant, what is called isis. i see there is enough interest in this room for this issue. overflow. public attention has focused on the military efforts to degrade isis, there is another effort

being led by the treasury department, which is focused on shutting down the flow of money to isis from outside sources and through smuggling networks. it has been estimated that isis country produces over 50,000 barrels of oil for day, which and $2ovide between one na million per day of revenue. this is in addition to the funds the group collects from activities such as extortion, kidnapping, and a legal surcharges -- and illegal surcharges. isis is considered the wealthiest terrorist organization. to discuss the strategy to try to cut off these funds, we are honored to have david cohen with us today. he is the undersecretary for terrorism and financial

intelligence at the treasury department where he leads the department in enforcing, regulatory and intelligence functions aimed at identifying and disrupting financial support to international terrorist organizations and other illicit actors posing a threat to national security. he will discuss the terrorist financing challenge posed by isis and the measures the treasury department and other agencies are taking to a dress this thread. following his remark we will open the floor to questions from the audience. for those who want to join the conversation online, we will be live tweeting this event using word.isruptingisis, one please join me in welcoming treasury undersecretary david cohen.

[applause] >> good morning and thank you for that kind introduction and to the endowment for hosting here today. it is an honor to have the opportunity to lend my voice to the ongoing dialogue fostered by carnegie and the middle east studies program. before i begin my remarks, i would note our sympathy and prayers with the people of canada. we are still working on gathering all of the information about the attacks yesterday and are working with our canadian counterparts. this is a tragic reminder of the reminder to remain vigilant in the face of terror. haveriends in ottawa will

whatever support they need from our national security teams in the united states. i come this morning to discuss the endemic problem of violence extremism. the terrorist group known as islamic state of iraq and the levant. i will describe the u.s. and international efforts my team is leading to undermine their financial strength as part of a strategy to disrupt and defeat i sil. lindy review why we are so focused on isil. they have slaughtered thousands of innocent people who did not subscribe to their theology. they have persecuted religious - brutally murdered aid workers and journalists who travel to syria just to bring a

small measure of relief to the people or to tell their story. the vast majority of their victims are muslims. isil threatens core u.s. interests and american facilities in iraq and our regional allies including turkey and lebanon, who are already strained by the ripple effects in syria. it is attracting so many foreign fighters and securing a safe pose a directould threat to citizens of the united states and our allies outside the middle east. aterrorist organization with stated desire to kill innocent people abroad must be confronted. the international

community has come together to stop this threat. the president has cap a special envoy with a broad coalition, 60 partner strong from the middle east to europe, behind a strategy to degrade isis's capabilities and ultimately defeat it. isil has grabbed the world attention for its ambitions and astounding tally, but also for another reasoning, it substantial wealth. their primary funding tactics enable it to generate tens of millions of dollars per month through the sale of stolen oil, the ransoming of kidnap victims, theft and distortion, and donations from supporters outside of syria and iraq. it is part of a broader strategy to degrade isil, we are

intensifying our focus on undermining their finances. this is a whole of government effort. we are working closely with our counterparts in the state department, the department of defense, and the intelligence community. we're linked up with international counterparts. we hosted a meeting with the state department and brought together over 20 countries to identify financial measures to undermine isis and the illegitimate aside regime -- assad regime. our efforts to combat the financing will take time. we have no silver bullet, no secret weapon. this will be a sustained fight and we are in the early stages. one thing is certain. so long as isis terrorizes the

weple of iraq and syria, will remain committed to degrading its financial strength. office was created and charged with developing financial tools to combat financing, reflecting the recognition that one way to forestall attacks is to deprive organizations of money. through the application of sanctions," operation with foreign partners, and enhancements to international financial transparencies, we have made it harder for terror groups to raise and store and use funds. in many respects, our campaign will build on our work over the past 10 years and resemble our previous campaigns. to some extent isis poses a

different challenge. it has amassed wealth and the revenue sources have a different composition than those of other terrorist organizations. isil devise a small share of its ownersrom deep pocket and does not depend on moving money across international borders. isis obtains the vast geordie of its revenues through local terrorist activities. just as isis realize a new marginals to pose itself, we are adapting our techniques to combat the financial activities. before turning to the steps we're taking, and the detail these sources of revenue. arst they have raised significant amounts of money from selling oil extracts from field in syria and iraq. they have tapped into

long-standing black markets connecting traders in and around the area. they extracting the oil, sell to smugglers who transport the oil outside of their strongholds. these smugglers move oil in a variety of ways. we also understand that isil and earnoil refineries some revenue from the sale of refine petroleum products. so who is buying this oil? as of last month, isil was selling oil at discounted prices to a variety of middlemen, including some from turkey, who transfer or the oil to be resold. some of the oil has been sold to kurds in iraq and resold into turkey.

it seems the syrian government has made an arrangement to purchase oil from isil. it is difficult to get resized estimates on the value of these transactions. we estimate that beginning in may june, isil has earned $1 million a day from these oil sales. that are good indications efforts have begun to impair isil's ability to generate oil from energy smuggling. the supply network is threatened and depriving it of fuel to sell or to use itself. our partners in the region including turkey are committed to preventing isil-derived oil from crossing their borders. produce andity to smuggle oil had been

significantly hampered. isil also kidnaps innocent civilians to profit from ransoms paid to obtain the release. isil did not pioneer kidnapping for ransom. it has been around for thousands of years. other organizations also rely on ransom payments as a key revenue source. kidnapping for ransom is one of the most significant threats today. these ransom payments are irregular, but each one can be a significant boon. they released captured journalists from several countries this spring. severaln, they received multimillion dollar payments. isil has taken it at least $20 million in ransom's this year. like its predecessor, isil

raises money up to several million dollars for month through an extortion racket. they extract payments from those who pass through, conduct this is in, or seek to live in territory where it operates. accounts of terrorist going homes to homes the many cash at gunpoint. a grocery store owner was warned with a bomb outside his shop. others have seen their relatives kidnapped. religious minorities have been forced to pay special tribute. when customers make cash withdrawals, isil has demanded as much as 10% of the value. this is not taxation in return for services or real protection. it is theft, pure and simple. the money takeover is being

exchanged for the temporary absence of harm. isil also profits from a range of other criminal activities. they rob banks. they knew and sell -- loot and sell antiquities. they sell abducted girls and women as sex slaves. isil derives some funding from wealthy donors. even though they do not rely heavily on external donor networks, it maintains important links to financiers in the gulf. stream areenue diverse and deep. with the important exception of some state-sponsored terrorist organizations, isil is probably the best funded terrorist

organization we have confronted. understanding this effort will take time and broad collaboration, we are well-positioned to degrade their financial strength. our strategy involves three elements. we are working to disrupt their revenue streams to deny it money in the first place. we aim to limit what they can do with the funds they collect by restricting their access to the international financial system. we will impose sanctions on their senior leadership and financial facilitators to disrupt their ability to operate. the first element of our strategy is working to cut off main sources of funding, ransom payments, extortion and crime. to disrupt the marketed oil

, we will target for financial sanctions anyone who trades in their stolen oil. it is true that oil moves in illicit networks that are largely outside the formal economy. oil is point, the acquired by someone cooperates in the legitimate economy for makes use of the financial system. he has a bank account. his trust may be insured. all that makes isil oil facilitators vulnerable. the traders and refiners and anyone else that handles their oil should know we are hard at work identifying them and we have the tools at hand to stop them. we can cut them off and freeze the assets and we can make it difficult for them to find a bank anywhere that will touch

their money or process their transaction. in combating their fundraising through oil sales, we will leverage the reluctance of banks around the world to facilitate the financing of terrorism. we are working closely with others to enhance the ability of our partners in the region to choke off cross-border oil smuggling routes and to identify those involved in the smuggling networks. the turkish authorities have made commitments to combat whatever oil smuggling occurs in their territory. playing ary is significant role in degrading the source of funding through airstrikes. from raisingil funds through ransom, we are redoubling our efforts to transform -- against a payment it ransom into a more widely

adopted practice. refuse the policy to payment of ransom's or make other concessions to hostage takers. this policy rests on the premise confirmed by experience that reduces session policy the frequency of kidnappings by eliminating the incentive to take hostages in the first place. in the context of hostagetaking by terrorists, this policy has greater force. we know that organizations use ransom money to fund the full range of their violent activities. refusing to pay ransom makes it less likely that americans will be taken hostage but it deprives terrorists of funding critical to their deadly aspirations and operations. we maintain this policy not because we are coldhearted. the president -- we use all of

our military intelligence, law enforcement to secure the release of american hostages. by attempts made this summer u.s. forces to rescue hostages being held reflect this commitment. but very simply, if we are to protect our citizens and avoid bankrolling our adversaries, every country must lament a no ransom policy. this norm is beginning to take place. last year that payment of ransom was rejected by the g-8. this year members of the security council have adopted resolutions reaffirming their shared commitment to seek the safe relief of hostages without making monetary or political concessions. going forward we remain dedicated to freeing those taken and will continue to urge

partner nations to subscribe to a no-ransom policy. we will look to use our sanctions authority against those who demand or receive ransoms on the half of terrorist organizations. we are concerned about the external donor networks. to prevent isil from raising funds, we will identify the financial supporters and target them from sanctions. we have focused on disrupting the funding networks of isil and its predecessor. we have applied sanctions against more than two dozen individuals over the past 10 or so years. we will continue to target those who would exploit the suffering of innocent people in syria and iraq, to raise money for their agendas. in the months ahead with plan to accelerate our efforts to

identify targets for sanctions and take actions through our counterterrorism authority. president obama led the un security council in passing a binding resolution to stem the flow of foreign terrorist fighters into and out of iraq and syria. 2178 aims to prevent and suppress the flow of foreign fighters and money to isil. we're working with others to implement it swiftly. we are closely with our friends in the gulf, are partners in the anti--isil coalition, to make sure they have the tools in place and they all use these tools effectively. we appreciate the close collaboration and strong steps taken by the saudi's to combat isil financing. even though isil does not rely heavily on their donor model,

that is no reason to relax our efforts in this area. particularly as we make progress in disrupting their current sources of income and as isil gains additional prominence, we must be prepared for the possibility that wealthy extremist will increasingly seek to fund it. as for disrupting the evident they generate from extortion, we recognize the tools are not well suited to the task. we will identify and designate the individuals who oversee their extortion networks, calling attention to those who are brutalized the people of iraq ane syria. drives home the point that shutting down the revenue flow ultimately will require breaking its hold on territory. other lines of effort are

focused on this objective. even where financial tools cannot it off certain streams, we still have a role to play. -- and that brings me to the second key of our strategy. 's we work to disrupt isil income, we need to enter ability: -- to collect -- we need to impair ability to collect funds. ability to make the use of the funds it collects depends on the sick -- on the banking system. operating in cash is cumbersome and risky. cash is bulky, vulnerable to theft, and requires complicated logistics to transport. isil will have a hard time finding external operations, --

funding external operations without access to the international financial system. -- are working to end iso- isil's ability to transact through the banking systems. bank branches are located in territories where isil currently operates. through cooperation with iraqi authorities, bank coordinators, and international financial community, we aim to prevent isil from using those bank ranches -- branches. the private sector is playing a key role in this element of our strategy. providessecrecy act the u.s. government with valuable insight into financial activity in areas where i still operates. we carefully -- where isil operates. we carefully review these and disseminate information to the appropriate authorities. the third element of our strategy draws on our time sensitive approach to countering

the financing of terrorism. we will continue to dismantle ,sil's financial foundation targeting its leadership, supporters, and financial facilitators. running a terrorist organization, especially one , is spans hundreds of miles both costly and bureaucratically challenging. in order keep track of all its revenues and costs, isil depends measuring networks, with cfo like figures at the top. as we identify those individuals, we will expose and -- we have seen from our fight against isis and other organizations that can bring that hampering their funds will make it harder for isil to conduct commercial and financial activities and clearly identifies for the international community who stands behind this

evil organization. we've stepped up our designations of isil officials, those based in iraq and syria and their financial supporters outside the area. on september 24, treasury sanctioned two high-profile individuals associated with isil, a financial facilitator who arranged a $2 million donation from the gulf, and his senior military commander. both were in syria soliciting donations, from -- procuring military equipment, and employing foreign fighters. these designations will not on their own stop the individuals, but they and designations the, frustrate isl -- isil's ability to attract money and fighters. i would like to make one final point against -- in our campaign against isil's financial funding. we should not confuse funding with strength. a terrorist group's overall

financial strength turns not just on its income, but it expenses and the degree to which it can dedicate its resources to violent purposes. isil operates within certain real constraints. isil's territorial ambitions are a financial burden. attempting to govern the cities, towns, territory in iraq and syria where it currently operates, much less the motoring some modicum of services -- much less the liver and some modicum of services to the people it ekes to subjugate -- it seeks to subjugate is expensive. no one expects isil to deliver the same level of services that the legitimate iraqi government, the official iraqi budget for the provinces where isil currently operates is well over $2 billion. that far outstrips isil's levering and does not include the price tag for the territory it seeks to dominate in syria.

isil cannot possibly meet the most basic needs of the people that it seeks to rule. as we make progress in diminishing isil's revenues and its freedoms to use them, we will further exploited vulnerability. the consequences of isil's inability to meet the cost of governing, by the way, were articulated very well in a recent report by -- with time, patience, and close international operation, the steps i have outlined today will help undermine isil's financial foundation. i must stress again however that the campaign against isil's finances will require more than just financial tools. this is primarily because, given that isil is enriching itself locally, cutting off one key

source of funds will require dislodging it from territories in which it operates, but more campaigneven as this progresses, we recognize that the only solutions to the conflicts in iraq and syria are political in nature. the hateful ideology propagated by isil must be countered by tolerant, economically vibrant societies and governments that rule in an inclusive manner. these are long-term goals that the united states is deeply committed to fostering. so, while we work towards lasting solutions, treasury will continue to deploy innovative strategies to disrupt isil's finances. together with our partners in the u.s. government and across the globe, we will do great and ultimately defeat isil -- we will degrade and ultimately defeat isil. thank you. [applause] much.nk you very let me start the discussion with

a couple of questions and then open it up to the audience. you just returned from a trip to qatar and saudi arabia. -- wheretries were individuals continue to donate money to isil. what was your message to them, and how do you assess the state of fund-raising in the gulf for such organizations? >> that's right. i just last week was in saudi arabia and qatar. the gulf is in or mislead important in the antisocial -- anti-isilhe coalition, including the counter -financing aspect of this. we've made no secret over the years of our concerns with financing for terrorist organizations coming out of the gulf. i think we have made some significant progress in the gulf

, but there is obviously more work to be done. each criticalugh country individually, if you look at saudi arabia, for instance -- my meetings there were very good. the saudi's are deeply committed to ensuring, to the best of their ability, that no money goes to isil or al qaeda or on front.- or al nusra they have made enormous strides in combating terrorist financing and are committed to ensuring that isil is not able to raise funds in the kingdom. uae, which i didn't visit on this most recent trip, though i'm a frequent visitor, they also are steadfastly committed to preventing funding for isil

from nusra front. we have a very good, close relationship with the iraqis -- with the emiratis. -- we have ateral bilateral task force where we will work more closely on combating terrorist financing. i think that's a very positive development and one that reflects an ongoing commitment by the emeratis. >> with respect to qatar and kuwait, i didn't make it to kuwait on this most recent trip. but general allen, who is spearheading this overall effort and is just embarking on a tour that will include kuwait and noted i have, in the past -- i have in the past noted that both kuwait and qatar are jurist -- jurisdictions with suspicion -- with specific concerns to

nusra front and to isil. i think both countries have more work to do. in qatar, where i was last week, i had very good meetings with senior leadership. we discussed how best how best to in -- to address this problem. ir proposed a new that -- y and ensure there are u.s. and u.n.-designated terrorist financiers in qatar that have not been acted against under qatari law.

the u.n. designated in august -- qatar.e residents in , they arect to kuwait home to a number of u.s. and u.n. designated terrorist financiers. they also have the laws and institutions in place to combat terrorist financing in kuwait. one thing we are particularly concerned about and two of the both wereignees raising funds through social media. through twitter appeals, in particular. they are raising funds not necessarily from within kuwait, but are also reaching out to

others, including in saudi arabia to make appeals to raise funds. one of the areas where we are quite concerned is ensuring that in particular people who have been designated by the u.s. and the u.n. are disrupted and unable to continue their fundraising activities. as i stay, i think there is more work to do, both encoder -- in qatar and kuwait. we been deeply engaged with both countries for a number of years. we have seen others make really substantial progress in combating terrorist financing. we are going to continue to work as closely as possible with our partners in the gulf on this issue. >> how would you address critics of u.s. policy who say that this is not america's fight and that it should be better left to countries in the region and not to the united states? how do you see the campaign compressing -- progressing in

the coming years? what would you look for to determine whether the strategy is working? >> first of all, this is certainly america's fight to some extent. threatens foroing u.s. interest -- threatens core u.s. interests. ofther it is the interest some of our very close partners in the region, jordan, lebanon, turkey, it is a significant u.s. interest. as well as the concerned that isil is attempting to create a safe haven for terrorism across that suite of territory, which is attracting foreign fighters. we have seen something on the order of 15,000 foreign fighters flow into the area from 80 or so

different countries, including dozens of americans. it is deeply in our interest to confront isil, combat isil, defeat isil. but it is not our fight alone. the size of the anti-isil countries and organizations coming together to combat isil, 10 of which are involved in military strikes, i think demonstrates that this is viewed quite properly as a to many countries around the world. and then, as to how we will judge success of our particular efforts to address isil financing -- as i said, this is going to be a long-term effort. it is going to involve work that the treasury department does in

designations, in exposing the networks. it will involve work of partners in other countries, turkey, elsewhere, where we are very much engaged. my deputy was in turkey a couple of weeks ago. general allen was there last week. we are continuing very close communication with the turks on these issues. require an enhanced understanding of the funding networks that were combating -- that we are combating. whether it is external donation networks -- i should note that we are very proud of the treasury department that we have in-house intelligence agency. we are the only finance ministry in the world that has our own intelligence agency. what these folks do is help us understand the financial

networks. they got dial-up -- they develop financial networks. that anonymously important the intelligence community help us understand -- it is a normal sleep important that the current importantnormously that the intelligence community help us understand. i think we will see over time that we are degrading each of these lines of financing for i saw -- for isil. isil has a fair amount of money today. what is critically important is that we do everything we can to prevent this from being recurring. -- recurring revenue. one-time revenue that we can address is one thing. , asant to make sure that they have significant expenses, that they don't have a ready stream of recurring revenue. >> let's open it up. we have about 20 minutes. we will take questions in

batches of three. please keep it short. >> [inaudible] >> a couple of questions. how would you assess what you've done so far? also, you talked about how people in the gulf -- how some governments of the gulf have new tools that you want to make sure that they know how to use. what are these tools? how you talking about were trying to come up with novel ideas to raise funds. you have outlined anything new. you've always had designations. what is new about what you are doing? >> i am with the national endowment for democracy.

i want to raise your attention for a few things. companies informal turkey. -- in turkey? [indiscernible] one thing you didn't mention, agriculture. iraq, 80% of the wheat and corn is in the area. that's a lot of money. did you look in this area? >> a question from the back. yes. please. i'm from the international center for terrorism studies. of combating isis

has been supplying materials and weapons to the syrian rebels and to the peshmerga. should a priority be put on ensuring these supplies do not handsnto -- into isil's and put less pressure on to their financial coffers? >> let's start with these. >> we are in the early stages of these efforts. some things that have been useful to the designations of both military and financial facilitators, which builds on the work that we have been doing for a number of years to identify people who are related hui as well aso

isil. this was helpful in my recent trip to the gulf, the highlight work that can be done. this is not going to be a connector size where we are going to, at the end of every month, be able to produce a balance sheet that shows what isil's finances look like. steady going to be a effort that will do -- will degrade isil's finances over time. the other area where i think we have seen -- and i noted we have seen some progress already is not something that we've done at the treasury department. it is something that our colleagues in the department of defense and their partners have accomplished in terms of strikes against isil oil facilities. oil refineries in particular. to selfes their ability refined products and makes it more difficult for them to fuel

their vehicles among both military and -- vehicles, both military and vehicles that may be smuggling oil. i think those are efforts -- answer to your question about what's new -- we've also begun conversations with the iraqi government and regulatoryfinancial authorities. with bankconcerns branches that are within the isil controlled territory. it is a difficult problem. in shutting is not down all economic activity in the areas where i sold -- were isil currently operates. they are subjugating huge swaths of the population, millions of people who are still trying to live their lives.

important lubricants for the economy. , we are veryime concerned about isil possibility ability to co-opt or coerced the bank employees into using the bank as a way for them -- to co-opt or coerce the bank employees into using the bank as a way for them to operate. i don't know if this is new or old, but a new manifestation of the core competency, which is working with financial counterparts, both in the iraqi to seeent and outside, what can be done to try and prevent isil from making use of these branches. of the informal -- noto move funds

everything moves through the financial formal sector. .e have done it in afghanistan good intelligence on who is .nvolved in these activities it requires the cooperation and collaboration with partners in the region. you cited one end of that transaction was in saudi arabia. i think they are fully engaged in the effort to combat isil

financing. we will work with partners in the region on these issues. with respect to the question on agriculture and isil selling weapons. they are able to engage in the territoryhin where they are currently operating, whether it is stealing crops and selling them for coming into weapons that have been left behind -- selling them or coming into weapons that have been left behind, that is all activity that we are aware of, that there are ways to address, particularly if it is going beyond the borders of where they operate. goingundamentally, it's to require pushing back isil from the territory where it

operates and freeing the lands where they are, as well as -- that will work on the extortion networks. it will work on the fulfilling of crops they are stealing. >> could you please talk a little bit about -- you said there had been some success in your conversations with countries, i'm guessing primarily european countries, about no longer paying ransoms to isil and other terror groups. could you be more specific about which countries are coming around? slaven.ra how do you deal with the fact that there are mixed motivations on the part of the members of the coalition, with many of them putting a priority on getting rid of bashar assad,

particularly turkey? there are many folks who seem to have an ambivalence about the activities of the islamic state. if i could also throw in an iran question -- how much progress have you made in setting up financial channels for people who want to do legitimate business with iran? channelre be a blessed between an american and an iranian bank if we get a comprehensive nuclear agreement? >> in the back. please, sir. >> thank you. i had a quick question regarding the oil trade. the oil that some of providers from the territory that isil is controlling is sold turkey. in iraq and to could you clarify what percentage of this royally screwed and what percentage is refined crude and what is

percentage is refined? position on this issue? -- said you are working with the "wall street journal congo to follow up on the oil trade -- >> >i am with journal."street to follow up on the oil trade, has been u.s. identified what routes are being used question mark -- are being used?

>> i will do this in reverse order. --t we've seen our tankers shipruck tankers, not tankers. toresponse to the question how the oil is moving, what the smugglers look like, what we're doing about it, i don't have much more detail that i can beyond what a marty said.

these -- beyond what i've already said. these smuggling routes have existed for a long period of time, long before isil was active in the territory. been a willingness --look the other way, to see to not be knowledgeable about the origin of the oil that these smuggling networks are using -- i think these smuggling networks, it's not just oil. there are other commodities that have for dozens or hundreds of years moved through these smuggling networks. the ability of people at the end of these networks to be unaware of the origin of the oil may -- been

people stealing oil from the syrian or iraqi governments and selling it through these networks. what is different is that we now know and they now know that this -- the trade in this oil fundamentally funds this terrorist organization. what may have been a willingness to look the other way in the past is something that cannot .ontinue going forward we will try to emphasize that message rhetorically and through actions as we identify the people involved in those networks.

with respect to competing ambivalence or what have you, i will leave the diplomacy to the diplomats. i don't sense any ambivalence whatsoever among the key partners on the importance of combating isil financing. even with respect to what i was saying on cutter and kuwait -- on qatar and kuwait, neither of those countries are saying to me that they are indifferent to the funding of isil coming from the territory. countries are -- e of have a new law regarding charities. they have long-standing

legislation that allows them to designate individuals and designate terrorist organizations, as they are obligated to do under un security council resolutions. have both thelso institutions and the legal framework to do essentially what we do, which is to take administrative action against terrorist financiers. those are the tools that are available. worke going to continue to with both jurisdictions so that they employ those tools as effectively as possible. on the question about ransoms and where we've had success, i do think it is notable that, in the last year plus, you had the g-8 come out a very strong statement about the payment of ransoms and then you had two un security council resolutions that, one, specifically focused

on ransom payments and the other, in the context of the foreign terrorist fighters, also noted the importance of not paying ransoms to terrorists. that is a very significant declaration of adherence to a no ransoms policy. thatrick is translating into practice and being committed as a matter of fact to that is and approach becoming a broader international norm. hardrequires some very choices to be made and recognition of the importance of adopting a no ransoms policy as a means to protect all of our citizens. as i noted in my remarks, isil received something on the order

of $20 million in ransom payments. that means that not everybody has committed to the no ransoms have. as certainly as we the british are, too. they have, like us, long adhered both inward word and in practice to a no ransoms policy -- both in word and in practice to a no ransoms policy. you i'm afraid that's all the time we have. please join me -- >> thank you so much. i'm afraid that's all the time we have. please join me in thanking the undersecretary. [applause] please stay seated until the undersecretary is able to leave. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy.

visit ncicap.org] >> you can see this event with the treasury undersecretary .gain online at c-span.org looking at yesterday's shooting at the parliament in canada, a mail"from "the globe and haveg that workers returned to their offices after the shooting. ottawa police say that one man was responsible. the canadian prime minister and ministers of parliament stopped at the war memorial to pay their respect. it is canada's tomb of the unknown soldier. we will be live again at noon eastern with a conversation on police wearing cameras. the cato institute is hosting a discussion on cameras and other technology to discuss -- to deal

with police misconduct complaints. at 5:00 eastern, we will be live as undersecretary of state for political affairs wendy sherman talks about the european union coordinating nuclear talks with iran. >> with the 2014 midterm elections just a week and a half away, our campaign debate coverage continues. today at 7:00 p.m. eastern, live coverage of the new york 23rd district debate with congressman tom reed and martha robertson. live at 8:00, the iowa fourth district debate between congressman steve king and jim mowrer. at 9:00, congress and nick rahal and -- congressman nick rahall and -- friday night, new hampshire senate debate between senator jeanne shaheen and former senator scott brown. at 9:00, senator jeff merkley and monica wehby. at 10:00, the louisiana fifth

district debate. c-span campaign 2014 -- more than 100 debates for the control of congress. >> and now to the rhode island governors debate in providence. the state treasurer, gina ,eminder -- gina raimondo running against the providence mayor, allan fung. this is courtesy of w pri tv -- of wpri tv. it's about an hour. >> the following is a special presentation. eyewitness news and the providence journal bring you live coverage. campaign 2014, the gubernatorial debate. >> live from the providence performing arts center, a

televised debate among the candidates for rhode island governor. >> good evening, i'm tim white. we are exactly two weeks from election day, when voters are going to decide who they want to lead the state as their next governor. we will help you identify the differences between the three major candidates looking for your vote. they are, from left to right on your screen, democrat gina raimondo, republican allan fung, and moderate -- moderate robert healy. debatebe moderating this and asking questions along with our panel. ed fitzpatrick. we will begin with one-minute opening remarks from each of the candidates. we ask that you hold your applause until the very end of the debate so everyone here and

those watching at home can hear what the candidates have to say. the odor -- order for opening remarks was determined by drawing. we begin with allan fung, elected mayor of cranston in 2008, where he is in his third term. before that, he was legal counsel for metlife. he was also a state prosecutor. your opening remarks. >> thank you. as i have talked with people throughout the state, i've come to realize that this election is more than just about jobs and the economy. this election is about providing opportunities for all rhode the ability to buy their first home, have a good paying job, providing a world-class education for our students, and most importantly keeping our families together here in our state. many years ago, my parents left

china not knowing a word of english to pursue the american dream. they chose rhode island. they started a family and a small family business. i'm running for governor so that the next generation can have the same opportunities they did. for the viewers at home that are watching, i'm hoping to earn your trust and support. we know rhode island is a great place to live. we are going to make it a great place to work. >> thank you. now gina raimondo, elected rhode island emerald treasure -- general treasurer in 2010. your opening remarks. >> thank you and good evening. rhode island is in a jobs crisis. every day i talk to families.

we need to make this a place where people want to be and to grow jobs. we need to make smart investments in our infrastructure, education, work or straining, and to support our workers by raising the minimum wage. i'm running for governor to rebuild rhode island's middle class and to create tens of thousands of good paying jobs. prior to becoming treasurer, iran a business. ran a business and we helped to create over a thousand jobs. healy, an attorney and businessman. he has run for statewide office six times. he attended rhode island college, boston university, northeastern university, and the new england school of law. myi would like to thank

opponents for being here tonight. me.ed you to look at you probably won't see much of me over the next two weeks. i didn't get any campaign donations from wall street insiders or city union contractors. i'm only relying on the people and free media to get my message out. thatnly good thing about is probably that, as governor, i would only answer to one boss, that boss being you the people. you may say that you're wasting your vote if you vote for me. but if you don't vote for the person who best represents you, you are wasting your vote then. , iyou want to pick winners say go to the racetrack. if you want to pick a leader, you have to think wisely when

you go to the polls. >> your time is up. i want to thank each of the candidates. let's get to the topic at hand. there is no strict format to tonight's debate. we are looking for open and honest discussion of the issue. i will allow for some bach and forth -- back and forth as long as it is on topic. if you are not answering the question and you are taking too long, i will jump in. i want to start with the topic our viewers have been hearing a lot about lately. raimondo haves. been battling over 38 studios. the state has been making bond payments on the millions of dollars owed to bondholders for the failed venture. one of your ads claims ms. raimondo wants to bail out wall street because she supports paying the bonds back. financial agencies have said defaulting on the loan would severely damage rhode island's rating.

we all understand that 38 studios isn't popular. are you playing politics with the state's bond rating? >> i would never play politics with the state's bond rating. what i want the voters to know is that i will stand with them any single day, but do it in a factual way. we all know this was a mistake from the first instance, getting aid into the -- getting into the 38 studios deal. they continue to make it worse. we have not done our due diligence in launching a full investigation, particularly when the state is making allegations of fraud in their lawsuit to recover money. the fun they are relying upon is faulty and alarmist. we've seen one of the major regions -- rating agencies said they would not drop us down to junk bond status.

i think the taxpayers and the voters deserve to know the truth before we make any commitment one way or the other on that payment. it is too big of a command for us. it could be utilized in other areas such as tax cuts, by a tax reduction plan, for education and many other areas. >> can you promise voters that the cost of default will be less than any higher interests that the state may incur by not paying the bond back? >> the only thing i can promise is that i will call for a full investigation of what is going on. the taxpayers of rhode island deserve to know the truth before they make any commitment one way or the other. i am proud to have stood and fought and argued for that full investigation with subpoena power, so that we can get to know the truth. i am proud to stand on behalf of the taxpayers and file a letter with the sec, because there were

allegations of insider trading. it did not look good when one of the bondholders sold on the day before 38 studios closed the deal. fung says you've made it worse. your response. >> i thought this deal from the beginning. treasures running from -- four treasurer -- when i was running for treasurer, i spoke out against it. fung, who was in office, was silent. two weeks ago, he was campaigning with the architect of this. there was a time to stop this deal, which was before it happened, and i thought it. -- fought it. i don't want to repay it, but we have to repay it. the experts have told us if we don't repay it, it's going to cost twice as much. that's a fact. the bondholders are going to be ok. they have insurance. i care about the people of rhode island and they are going to be

stuck holding the bag and it's going to cost twice as much money if we don't repay it. this isn't easy politics you know. he's doing the easy political thing, telling voters what they want to hear, don't repay it. i'm not going to do that. leadership means doing the right thing even when it's difficult politics and in this instance it's clear. it's like your credit card bill. if you don't pay your credit card bill, you get higher interest charges. >> we choose what we pay in her -- what we charge on our credit card bill. do you think voters should have a say on any bond that goes out in the state of rhode island from here on out? >> it was inappropriate to do a moral obligation bond for $100 million or $75 million. a bond of that size should've gone to the people and again i was very critical. i fought it. at this point the right thing to

do is to repay it. the last state to default was arkansas back in 1938. it would be a huge black eye across the country for rhode island. i'm running for governor to rebuild rhode island, to move the state forward, not to go back. >> mr. healey before you when i -- before i go to mr. fung to you have used it as a campaign prop. how do you square that with voters? >> if i could respond to one point. i would like to question the treasurer's judgment on this and i think the rhode island voters deserve to know what fighting means.

i stood up and asked for a full investigation when allegations move forward. sending an e-mail is not fighting for the taxpayers. and as far as judgment let's talk about the treasury -- treasurer's judgment. they rehired the same financial advisers that put us into that deal for southwest. she and governor chaffee rehired those individuals when we as a state or suing them for fraud. i question her judgment. raimondo: i also would like an investigation but that's after-the-fact. where was he as an elected official before it happened? i was out there saying don't do this deal and i can promise you if i had been governor would not have happened. i also have called for an independent investigation and let me tell you if there was any fraud, people would be held accountable. the problem is in the meantime we have to pay our bills because if we don't do will be twice as -- we don't, it do will be twice as expensive for the people of rhode island and rhode island families can handle that.

>> i will have questions for both of you but i would let mr. healy, people don't know where you stand on this. >> i think we really have not seen taxpayers, the full investigation that went forward. i think that is part of go with -- of what would condition how you would pay the bonds. to not opposed paying. in fact i think that might be of benefit to the state in that if we do have higher credit costs we would do less borrowing. certainly if i were governor at the time i too would have stopped the project. whether we are arguing over what could have or should have happened, we have to look at what the reality is. we are paying off bonds under what we call a more -- moral obligation, yet they say we don't have any moral obligation for the pensions we've taken away from people. there is a moral obligation to our own people, not to the people on wall street.

i think that is the most important, to take care of our own first. >> you said in your economic plan, one of the key things is the state pays its debt. >> i don't recognize that as a moral obligation. debt?it a >> it is a promise to pay for something that the state did not engage in. raimondo, i want you to respond briefly to mr. fung. why did you hire that firm back? >> thank you for giving me the chance to clarify. in my administration i have a policy that any time a contract comes through we put out to bid and win this contract came up -- and when this contract came up, we put it out to bid. only two firms replied to the rfp and the principles of both firms were involved in 38 studios. we did the best that we could.

a committee unanimously approved hiring them. however, we hired them in a way that allows us to fire them at anytime time for any reason without penalty. it's not clear at this point they did anything wrong. if at some point it becomes clear they did something wrong then we will fire them and they will be held accountable. mr. fung, you never answered my question regarding what she said about former governor -- -- about the former governor. >> first of all, the former governor has not been campaigning with me. what also i can bring to voters to know about the general treasurer is this. there were two individuals that applied. the other option, the other fiscal advisers are the largest fiscal advisers in the country. they certainly were a viable option. why would you not choose them over someone the state is suing for fraud for committing these

allegations? -- for fraud amidst these allegations? as far as the payments themselves, why rush? there are other options. we could set aside the money in escrow, do our due diligence before we make any commitments. this is too critical of the decision. -- of a decision. millions of dollars in the state could be put to better use for the taxpayers. >> we are going to go to wpri.com reporter ted nesi. >> there has been talk in a campaign about jobs and high unemployment rate so i want to ask you about your opinions on that and we will start with you. isn't this your plan is a great way to innovation institute or college of corporate -- it hasn't attracted academic bidders. rhode island has empty land freed up by the project. what would you do to drum up interest, and how much would that cost taxpayers? >> i would like to use the 195 land, which i think is what you

are referring to. to use that land to have an innovation institute. it would be funded not by the state but by collaborations between universities and industry. it's what they are doing in ohio and new york city. they hadrk city, roosevelt island, an empty plot of land. they did a global competition and invited universities and industry from all over the world to bid on putting, in their case, unapplied science -- an applied science institute together. they are already on their way to creating thousands of jobs. imagine if we did the same thing. and havebring together an advanced manufacturing institute, something designed to take the great ideas coming out of our colleges and universities and turn them into products that we make here. that's the kind of game changer that we need.

it wouldn't cost the taxpayers anything. of newmentioned the city york. they are spending roughly 100 million dollars on infrastructure improvements around the campus. they gave cornell the land for free. could you see your administration spending over $100 million on this project? >> i would be interested to give away the land. for too long, we have been shortsighted. we need to invest in growth. we used to be a jewelry manufacturing mecca. all those jobs left and went overseas, and our leaders did nothing to reposition ourselves for jobs in the future. massachusetts did. they got into information technology and biotechnology, and they are thriving. we have been left behind. under my leadership, we are going to thrive by pulling together industry with universities to fundamentally re-create our economy and industries we can be great at. marine science, medical science, industrial science, and create

tens of thousands of good middle-class jobs. >> you acknowledge it could have a significant task -- cost to taxpayers if it is modeled on the new york example? >> you have to think it is a smart investment in growth. we are going to invest in growth. >> i want to move on to mr. fung. you propose cutting taxes by up to $200 million in the next state budget. there is a projected deficit of -- with that level of tax cuts, it would be a $370 million budget shortfall for the state. how would you close such as -- such a huge shortfall in the budget and make your plan work? >> i want to let people know the part of my plan has already been implement it by this general assembly this past session. the numbers will still have to be reworked. we are going to continue to put that plan into place, my $200 million plan that is going to put more money back into taxpayers' pockets.

>> how much is the new total after what the general assembly did? >> we haven't recalculated new totals. we have to wait and see what the actuals are going to be. until we get an accurate projection based upon what we are seeing, what is happening, what we are likely to finish with, it's going to be difficult to tell. if we implement the $200 million plan based upon what i had put forward, it would make our state one of the most competitive in the northeast and send a message to small business owners that have to pay that minimum business tax of $500. let's cut that in half and go further if we can. like all the rhode islanders and the people watching tonight, i'm tiling -- tired of seeing rhode island license plates going to massachusetts, spending our hard-earned allers in the hard-earnedheir -- dollars in the borders up there.

>> even if we scale back the numbers, perhaps a three -- how would you close such a large budget gap? >> this is where the rhode island taxpayers have to put their trust in me. the experience that i have as mayor of cranston, innovating, making sure we are working together, consolidating, initiatives like that have to be tackled with at the state budget as well. i'm proud of the fact that we work with other cities and towns on very big, important issues like health care. working with northern rhode island cities like johnstone, north property -- providence, to stave -- save on administrative health-care reforms, to provide rail service. those are saving taxpayers dollars. that's the type of fervor i will use. >> you have suggested that you would cut 5% of the state workforce as part of your savings.

how many state employees would lose their jobs? >> what we are talking about with the cuts is making sure that there are operational efficiencies at all levels of government. that's where the experience as cranston mayor and working as a chief executive, finding efficiencies, consolidating functions wherever we can, that what i will put to task tackling our state budget as well. just ask yourself why is it for a similar sized state population wise north of us are state budget is billions more than new hampshire's? ask yourself. take a look at the general assembly's budget in rhode island. why is it millions more than the legislature voted in new hampshire who had many more members? >> you have said explicitly you do not have a jobs plan. you don't see the governments function is creating jobs but you have an economic development plan. you wrote recently, "i can only state my jobs plan is incumbent

upon the state working to revise how we speak -- how we do business. oh what would be your top policy? -- what would be your top policy? >> we have to make it easier for business to come into our state. the second problem is taxation. we need to make property taxes are lower so that businesses will come in, set up employment, and move the money through the system that way. i have suggested that we take the teachers contracts and -- from each municipality and move it to a state contract, one state contract, and, in doing so, what you can do is you can relieve half or more of many of the property taxes in most cities and towns. that would lower the rent and taxes on businesses and commercial industry that comes into rhode island. they would be favorable to doing that. by coming in and creating jobs, the people who are and required to pay schools

interesting part about that is it would allow seniors on fixed income to stay in their homes because the tax rate would be lessened. that keeping of the local school committee would allow committees to be focused on education and education priorities, other than in terms of contractual obligations. , you cannotc sense attack the problem by saying, let's throw money at jobs. businesses come in, take the money and after they are done with state of rhode island, they leave. some --e talking about building something new that can >> mayor fung says the way he is going to pay for this is to trust him. his record in cranston is that he has continued to raise taxes. office and year

after year raise property taxes on families. , whichial property taxes turns businesses away. ,e even taxed more cars imposing a car tax on cars valued as little as $500. in his new plan, he wants to cut corporate taxes. tax increases for working families. that is what is crippling rhode island. when he tod to do, have an affordable, competitive tax structure. i supported the general assembly when they lowered the corporate tax rate. now we are the lowest in new england. i worked hard on pension reform. it has already saved the taxpayers of rhode island hundreds of millions of dollars. what we need to do, is control our costs. he smarter about how we spend and invest in infrastructure. put people to work. --

>> we need to move on. >> i think the taxpayers know and trust what i have done in the city of cranston. for the past three years, we have not had to raise property taxes. we have rolled up our sleeves. even reforming our pension system the right way, negotiating with a settlement that save $6 million. we were also innovating, like i discussed, and growing business base. i'm proud of the business environment that we've created in cranston, adding over 1000 new jobs in my first two terms. we are still committed to seeing business grow, not just big businesses, but small businesses like marquette ease and antonio's as well. that is the type of leadership we need at the state level to

get jobs here. >> let us move on to exit patrick. >> the rhode island public expenditure issued a report noting state officials have not figured out how to fund the health insurance exchange, even though under obamacare, it must be financially self-sufficient by december 2015. termsce began in general about health care, i want you just tell us specifically how you would fund health source rhode island moving forward. >> i do not think that i would consider funding it. i think i would turn it back to the federal government for its use on that end. aboutld you be concerned the federal government taking back some of the grants that it has given the state to get it going? >> i think that the federal government was the way to go. i think that there are problems are going to happen after the midterm elections, in terms of

what is going to be allowed and not allowed. i ink rhode island is out on a limb in their program on this. >> miss remove dough -- miss romano you agree? >> rhode island has done excellent job in rolling out the exchange. i would keep it in rhode island. first, we have to take a hard look at it and see if there are ways to reduce the cost. secondly, we need to be creative. i would not put a surcharge on policyholders, because rhode island families are struggling. i'm very interested in the possibility of licensing it and selling it to other states because it is something rhode island has done such a good job of. i understand other states are interested. recently, my daughter had strep throat.

we quickly called the pediatrician, got her in there, she tested positive for strep and got her right on the medication. it occurred to me, every parent deserves the opportunity to do that for their kids to have access to good care. that is exactly what health source provides you have to figure out a way to fund it >> reisinger regional marketplace? small businesses, we have to do everything to reduce health care costs for small businesses >> let me answer the question directly, because i have a three-pronged approach to this. we have an exchange that is better functioning than many other states, but the cost is the big issue, especially when those subsidies run out. we have to first, get a

realistic idea of what those costs are. that number is in were between 20 million and 60 -- $26 million. out what thend expense drivers are and why it is costing so much. ase a look at options such private exchanges to see whether or not they can do that function .n a more cost-effective manner let us also take a look at whether or not some of the bells and whistles of the exchange are truly needed, such as, do we really need a call center operations to provide that service? for my understanding, these individuals might not be licensed brokers. second, we should take a look at the exchange because it is better functioning and other states, particularly massachusetts, to see whether or not it could be a revenue opportunity for us. if we can cut our expenses, get

more dollars, that is one of the ways i would consider keeping this change -- exchange a lower cost. if we cannot get those costs down, i would consider moving it to the federal system and having them run it because it is performing a lot better than the initial rollout. getting access to health insurance is important to all rhode islanders. >> candidates, we're more than halfway through this debate. i'm going to pick up the pace. this is a rapidfire section. as always, i'm looking for one word answers to these questions . >do support the constitutional convention? >> at this time i am against it. >> support or oppose the constitutional convention? >> i supported with reservations. >> yes or no, as governor, which

you sign a bill that would allow license businesses to sell marijuana? >> yes. to take ang wait-and-see of the legalization of marijuana. >> also a wait and see. >> do you want to keep or repeal the voter id law? >> i would keep it. >> i think it is fun showing well. -- i think it is functioning well. if the general assembly put a bill on my desk, which repealed it, i would sign it. you support or oppose drivers licenses for undocumented immigrants? >> support. >> i do not supported. >> i believe there should be driving papers and insurance requirements but not necessarily an id in the form of a drivers

license. you am wondering if any of oppose any of the four bond referendum questions on the ballot? >> i do not. that some of the issues that are raised may be of interest to the state. i could support some of them. i'm going to take a wait and see attitude as it develops. >> mr. fung, do you oppose any of the bond? >> i support all four of those initiatives. >> i support them all. >> mr. fung, we will go to you. would you describe yourself as you describe your so this pro-choice. right to life possibly leader says you have their endorsement because you promote commonsense measures, a lot of the stuff they propose.

what measures to support? >> this issue has come up in my prime -- in the primary area i've always identified as pro-choice, with the common sense restrictions that many rhode islanders also support. i do not support late-term abortion and certainly do not support partial-birth abortions. i respect both sides of the issue. as governor, i would not do anything to stand in the way of a woman's right to make her decisions. >> are there any legislations that you oppose because your pro-choice? the'm not sure of legislation they put forward. you've been criticized since you got the endorsement of planned parenthood last month. the campaign is also sent you oppose late-term abortions. had he square your two positions there?

>> i am a pro-choice candidate. i'm also catholic. i respect the church's position. life, i acceptte that and follow that. as governor, i will be the governor for all the people of rhode island, including those that have different religious views than i do. i have been very clear on this. i would support a ban on late-term abortions as long as there is provision for the life and health of the woman. currently, there is a law on the abortionning late-term , but it is unconstitutional. it is not being enforced. the only point that i was making is that, it makes no sense to keep a law on the books if it is not being enforced. i am a practical person. if we want to have a ban on the

term abortions, with provision for the life and health of the woman, i would support that. >> there have been bills filed to ban it. you're saying you would sign one of those bills? >> yes. >> there was a firestorm after your comment at planned parenthood. do regret the way you focus that press conference? >> the infant just best the interesting thing, no one asked me my position. the first time some but he asked me not position, i was very clear, i would support a ban on late-term abortions. it is a difficult issue. we need to approach it with reasonableness and kindness and sensitivity. i respect and appreciate what the catholic church is coming from. >> you do not to sound too far

apart. you share major differences? not use divisive issues that are personal to individuals as part of this campaign. when i been out there on the campaign trail, the sole issue that i have been promoting and talking about is making our ,tate more open for business cutting through red tape, incrementing $200 million tax reduction plan and getting people back to work. >> mr. healy, your written that you are a social liberal who supports the right to abortion -- abortion. do you think abortions should be legal? >> i think the individual has to make decision because the individual has to live with that decision for the rest of her life. concerned, i think that i would have no problem in supporting abortions in terms of state law.

however, i would be very concerned because i think the state has an obligation to minors. i can see restrictions in that area. >> your campaign on the social divisive issues, what do you say to that? >> if anyone has been clearer about the reason they are running, it is me. i've said over and over, i am running because we are a jobs crisis. i would like to take a minute, he referenced his tax cut. let us be clear about what that would do. it would double our budget deficit. it is a reckless plan that would double the budget deficit and result in painful cuts to education, workforce training, infrastructure am a higher education. it would hurt working families and make it worse. he knows it is unrealistic, because the first thing he did for the first three budgets he submitted, he raised taxes. it is time to be realistic.

let us invest in growth and get people back to work. >> i let you respond mr. fung. ago, we hadweeks three leading business leaders in the state of rhode island, i'm proud that the former dean and distinguish this professor at uri, called my tax plan pro-business, pro-economic development, and pro-job creation. that is what we need. a leader who is willing to tackle the problems of our state with a sense of urgency. that is what my plan will do. my experience in cutting through red tape and working to build better as environments is evident. take a look at the central part of the city. it is thriving now. they should be happening in every city and town across the state. that is what i intend to do as governor. healy, you sent a platform document that you wrote

to the six -- 2006. i read it, and i noticed that at one point, you believe that the large-scale entry of women into the american workforce has caused a detriment to the society that may be beyond repair. that is a provocative statement. can you explain? >> it sounds misogynist on the surface. what we forgot to do when we allowed women to enter into the ,orkforce, we forgot to say hey, there are extra laborers coming in. in that same document, i say that the best person should be working instead of having two people working at the same amount of wages. if you dilute the workforce, you drive down the cost of labor. when labor is cheap, two people have to work in a home where only one had to work in the past

. if you read the document, you would know that it is not a statement against the woman entering into the workplace. far more superior in terms of getting into the workplace and getting into higher positions. we see that in higher education. i bet what would've happened -- -- laborhat will could've stayed high. the parent that is best able to take care of the children could've stayed home and we could have a thriving economy. to add some any people to the labor force pushes the price of labor down. in doing that, it forces everyone to have two working parents. we lose our home life. >> we have a little over 10 minutes before closing statements. something pops up this week. group of democratic ties is funding and attack at aimed at you mr. fung, problems within the police department.

why haven't you released an internal affairs report that examined the ticketing scandal in your city? are you going to do that for november elections? >> i think they have the facts incorrect. don i asked state police to when it came to the city of cranston was to do a top to bottom review of the police department. that report is pending. i have always acted with transparency. we're going to act on that report. it is a new day in the city of cranston in our police department. we have a new chief was bringing the department together. >> my question was specifically about the ticketing scandal. is there an internal affairs report on that, if so will you release it? >> that matter is not closed. we held the officer accountable

and we are moving forward. the officer does have his rights. i cannot speak further because it is still tied up in that bill of rights process. >> ms. raimondo the addresses questions -- the ad raises questions. and heolice cleared him did serve 47 years as it police officer. do you agree with that ad, that colonel palombo should not get a pension? >> that ad is separate from my campaign. i would like to take a second to talk about the police scandal, because it goes to a style of leadership. i think mayor fung's handling of the scandal is a red flag. under his leadership, the cranston police department has had scandal after scandal. allegations of bullying, sexual discrimination, until it culminated in this ticketing scandal.

hisut a contract before credit controlled city council, offering an 11% raise to the police officers. the city council said no. a certain group of police officers were so emboldened that they went on a ticketing spree. instead of showing leadership and immediately calling for an outside investigation, he for months humbled it until finally, the city council was about to call in state police. that is the same story that we hear over and over in rhode island. abuse of power, a culture favoring insiders. this time to move on. i've shown real leadership, taking on the system, changing the culture -- >> your response? >> we really nice that leadership starts at the top. -- we recognize that leadership starts at the top.

i started an internal investigation immediately than and up calling in state police on that investigation. no, it was not a group of officers. it was one officer and we held him accountable and is in the process right now. archie did resign. -- our chief did resign. i'm tired of having your outside millionaires funding these attack ads and distorting the truth. let's talk about leadership. there is a new day within the police department, protecting residents of cranston. i have a question about your leadership and judgment. we already heard about you hiring back the same financial advisors that we sued for fraud in that question. i'm sitting here questioning your judgment and leadership as you sit on the board of rhode island housing, when we just heard in the paper that they were fined for inappropriately using $1 million of federal funds. where were you?

i did not hear you call them out about what was going on. these are judgments and leadership styles. i've let the third-largest city and we acted decisively. -- >> mr. healy, i'm going to have you weigh in. i'm sorry mr. healy, i was planning at ms. arco -- pointing at miss arco. >> the state police had to come in and take over. rhode island housing, i do not run rhode island housing. either seat on the board. we called for an audit. they will be held accountable. we will take care of it immediately. that is very different. he has overseen a police department for years.

there's been scandal after scandal, a culture of not holding people accountable and favoring insiders. the culture of favoring insiders has helped the state back for too long. it is time for change. >> we went off the rails for little bit. ring it back to the scandal -- >> i think it is interesting that both of these people are speaking of transparency and getting the facts out to the public and in one case, one is not putting out enough facts, the other is not showing enough transparency. this is all being played out on the stage of where campaign funding is forcing these issues. we are not talking about the future of rhode island, we are bickering between people who have problems with each other over certain matters of management style. this is exactly what is happening in rhode island that gets us wound up in the situation of not advancing, because we like to blame each other instead of working

together. it keeps money flowing from different sources to keep people apart by dividing them, rather than consolidating them. if we want to solve problems, we all have to work together, have the most transparent government, and we have to be able to access our documents and leaders in a way that makes people in charge of the state. >> this is a question from a viewer. i'll stick with you, mr. healy. supportnor, would you cost-of-living adjustments that of been suspended under the law? >> i think the whole pension situation needs to be discussed more fully. i look at the cases and i think we have a problem there. it is not over yet. it is certainly not over yet. we put that problem off as long as we have litigation on the matter. that could have been solved. i looked at the rhode island

constitution. before was even implemented, the governor could have gone to the supreme court and asked if this law was constitutional and whether or not this question of law was applicable. a would have given a written answer at that time and avoided all the controversy and problems that we had with the pensioners. we have moral obligations to people on wall street, and yet, we have no problem saying we have no moral obligations to the people who actually work for us, taught our children, gave nursing services and other services to people of our state. i find that to be out of the realm of reality, to think that we need to pay back people who do not live in our state because we have a moral obligation and none to the people that actually work for us? question.g, same if you're elected governor,

which you put back -- sign a law to put back in place the annual pension increased that of been suspended? >> i think all rhode islanders recognize that pension reform had to be taken on at the state and local level. where i have problems with the general treasurer is how it got done. in cranston, we have reached the same solution by sitting across the table and negotiating our labor unions and retirees listening and still coming to a same result that avoided a class action because we were able to get a good majority of people -- >> i apologize. would you advocate for bringing back the cost-of-living increases as governor? >> we have to wait and see what happens. bottom line for me is, this system calls into question for me the general treasurer's judgment.

we have seen how she wanted to act in this instance. -- she isso seen paying significantly more in fees than the last general treasurer. . $272 millionre in lost opportunity investment. arconeed to let miss weigh in on the question. i inherited a system in crisis. it was 48% underfunded. -- politicians before me turned a blind eye. i brought everybody together and solve the problem. the system is healthier than it has ever been treated at 90% of the general assembly voted for it. that is leadership. the system is healthier than it has ever been. people's pensions will be there for them. we do not have to relive the

pain and suffering of people in central falls, who lost a pensions and homes and health insurance. , he alsost, mayor fung inherited a system in crisis. it was about 18% funded. he made small changes and now it is about 20% funded. about the same level funded, and , he did not even fund it 100% every year. those of the same games that politicians have been playing with people's pensions. pretending the problem is smaller than it is and not funding it properly. but i did is hard politics, but it had to be done. as to the question of the .awsuit, there is a lawsuit i spent a year and a half at the mediation table and we came up with a solution. i wish that the union members had voted for it. at the end the day, leadership means acting in the face of crisis and solving a problem. that is what i did. >> we have 30 seconds across the

board. as governor, would you sign a bill binding arbitration for teachers? >> no. >> no. >> >> we ask that you hold your applause. closinghe order for statements was determined by a drawing. they begin with gina. your closing remarks? >> thank you. it is time to rebuild rhode island. i am running for governor to create tens of thousands of middle-class jobs and put rhode island back to work. especially manufacturing jobs. when i grew up, my dad worked for 26 years at the watch factory in father's. he provided a good middle-class life for my f