and i think they have come a long way, but i think there is a long way to go to make sure we're measuring things we care about and capturing -- the other tension i would say is there is attention in the shared savings program between those two would want to measure everything, meaning we don't want any possibility of something adverse is happening to this patient, versus the acos saying don't drown us in reporting and measurement, allow us to focus on things that are really mattering, that are a handful of really salient measures. and i think that tension hasn't and i think that tension has not yet been fully resolved. >> that is part of the reason you are doing so much, to try to expand the scope of measurement while reducing the burden on providers. out thatust point there are a lot of aspects of patient safety where it is very much in line with the reforms in

accountable care. preventing re-hospitalization, avoiding costly medical errors that lead to complications -- all those are steps that accountable care organizations like the hospitals, now that the payments for readmissions are being reduced -- those organizations have stronger incentives to address. are there any areas where you are worried about the other direction, that the higher-quality care may actually expensive, maybe for some specialty conditions, where there are extensive treatments needed? any particular areas stand out there? anything to pay attention to? >> what i would say about that is, we have had some technology firms, medical device firms, come and say, this payment is wonderful, but you are going to squelch innovation. what we have said is, we don't want to squelch innovation. there is a type of innovation

that reduces costs, but even ones that may increase costs that are life-saving or life-enhancing. we are trying to find ways to measure that. we have been working closely with those industries to try to see if our payment system should adapt. they have asked for a pass through. if we come up with something new, do not include that in a reconciliation. we are not willing to do that. but we are continuing to focus on that victor. that particular type of innovation. mei would like you to join in thanking sean for joining us this morning. thank you very much. [applause] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by national captioning institute which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> next, some of the debates around the country, starting with candidates running for kansas governor. then, the montana senate debate from this week. after that, we hear about the candidates in iowa costs fourth congressional district race.

of campaignverage 2014 continues, with tuesday costs kansas governors debate, with sam brownback and his democratic challenger, paul davis. the cook political report lists this race as a tossup. republican governor brownback was first elected in 2010. this comes to us courtesy of the kansas association of broadcasters, and it is about 40 minutes. [applause] >> thank you very much, jim. get everything situated here. let me give you the debate instructions as we have developed them. each candidate will have two minutes for an opening statement. then i will ask questions giving each candidate 90 seconds to respond and a 30 second rebuttal from the candidate who answered

first. you will have someone down here keeping time for the candidates. all questions have been developed by me. the order of who answers first will change with each question. at the end, the candidates will have two minutes in their closing statements in the same order as the opening statements. we ask the audience to refrain from applause or reactions during the debate and, of course, if you would please check your cell phones to make sure those are in some type of position where we won't disturb the candidates. afterwards you will be able to clap and applaud for them being here. with that, let me bring up both of the candidates, representative paul davis and governor sam brownback. [applause]

there should be some water under each podium. absent any fans. i have had that question asked a lot. no fans under the podiums. i want to say hello to the gentleman. -- gentlemen. thank you for participating in this kansas association of broadcasters debate. we earlier flipped the coin. wasn't it a piece of memorabilia from the kansas city royals? the chiefs. i want to thank you all for being here. he flipped a coin to decide who would be the person to give opening statements. governor brownback won the coin toss. we will start with an opening statement for governor brownback and move accordingly. governor brownback?

>> thank you for hosting this, association of broadcasters. i have to start by saying go royals. it is exciting what is taking place. the royals are america's team now and everybody in america is cheering for them outside of nancy pelosi's district. that is the only one that is cheering for it. we are excited about that. we are hopeful they can sweep in the series. thank you for hosting this, we have a choice to make this fall. the direction for the state of kansas in the future is an important choice and you have dramatic differences between myself and paul davis. i put forward a plan that is a conservative model. lower taxes, lower requirements -- work requirements for welfare. it is getting our fiscal house in order. it is getting growth to take place and investing in functions like schools and roads. we have done that, and move that agenda forward. and we see things grow in the state of kansas with record employment. 4.8% unemployment rate. index is going down

in the state of kansas, according to the u.s. census bureau. we are moving in the right direction and getting things done. and that is important for us as a state where we have languished for 35 years. change is difficult, and this has been difficult. we are moving in the right direction. paul davis represents an obama model with higher taxes, no work requirements, and have more government intrusion in your lives. and that is your choice. one of the things that hasn't been talked about much is the selection of judges. the governor selects judges in the state of kansas and that matters a great deal. we are seeing now, a case here in wichita, brothers going to the kansas supreme court. it was overturned by the kansas supreme court. they are very liberal court. paul davis wants to continue to appoint liberal judges to that court. i want to appoint judges that will interpret the law, not rewrite the law as they see it to be. this is an important distinction

between the two of us, on who would appoint and how we would appoint judges. i hope this is something we can discuss, because it's a key issue and a key distinction between the two of us. one of the justices even hosted a fundraiser for paul davis. i find that wrong. it's something that shouldn't happen. >> representative davis. >> thank you. good afternoon. i'm paul davis. a lifelong kansan, moderate, a 15 year veteran of the local chamber of commerce. i'm also the son of two teachers and a parent of a soon-to-be kindergartner. the issue of public education is personal to me. that is why i have been a steadfast champion for public schools during my 12 years in the legislature. that is why i opposed governor brownback's largest cut to school funding in state history. that is why i will make restoring those cuts the very

top priority as governor. it is one of the reasons why i have the support of over 180 current and former republican elected officials. three speakers of the house, three senate presidents, three lieutenant governors, u.s. senator and two kansas republican party chairs. that has never happened in kansas before but it is happening because i have a track record of being able to unite democrats and republicans. it is happening because the governor's economic experiment is not working. and it is not going to work. not only are we trailing our surrounding states and the rest of the country in economic growth, it has plunged our state deep into debt and it is harming thousands of kansans. kansans like mary from winfield who is here with us today. she is a single mom and also happens to be a republican. she provides for her son on a shoestring budget and is proud she has not had to turn to public assistance. but because mary falls within the bottom 20% of kansas wage earners, she is paying 50% more in kansas income taxes solely because of the governor's economic experiment.

we have to do better for people like mary. the choice we have in this election is about whether we are going to clean up the mess the governor has created or we are going to hit the accelerator the governor says on more cuts to schools, more debt, and a failed experiment. kansas cannot afford this. we have to go in a different direction, a direction that prioritizes our schools and uses proven ways to grow our economy , and that is exactly what i would do as governor. >> first question. representative davis, you will have the opportunity to answer first. from the economy to education to ebola, there is an air of uncertainty about the future. what will your administration do to calm the concerns of kansans? >> first of all, we will use the old adage, if you're in a hole, you need to stop digging. the governor plus economic

experiment, the one-size-fits-all experiment of -- is not working. you have to look at the data. we are trailing the surrounding states and the rest of the country in economic growth. the governor's own council of economic advisers documented this seven months ago. we are 45th in the country in terms of new business creation. in 2013, there were more businesses that closed shop that -- than opened shop. we have had three credit down grades in just over a year. this is not working and it is not going to work. the governor says he wants to hit the accelerator on what we have been doing. we know what that means. it means more cuts to schools, more dollars at taken out of our proven job creating program and transportation plan. i think we need to end the experiment. let's freeze the tax cuts where they are at on january 1, 2015. let's get our fiscal house in order. let's restore the cuts to the public schools because strong public schools are the very foundation of a stronger economy.

business leaders like john moore have told me that the best thing we can do to move our economy forward is to have the very best public schools. that is why i will make restoring cuts my very top priority as governor. >> i wish he had not voted for the cuts in the first place then. the cuts he is talking about are the ones that happened in the parkinson administration. the administration cut support for k-12 administration and put one time obama stimulus money that went away the next year. those are the cuts he voted for. i've put money in every year. i've increased state funding for education every year i have been in office. listen as well to the rest of the plan he is putting forward. the plan is for him to raise income taxes on you, on the person at his table. his first plan is to raise taxes for people that make $15,000 a year.

that is what he is proposing. we cut income taxes on everybody in the state of kansas and his first step is to say if you are making $15,000 a year, your income taxes are going up. that is not any way to grow. he can be critical of my plan all he wants to be. we still have record employment in the state of kansas and his plan is to raise your income taxes. i ask you is that the way you , grow the economy, by raising your income taxes? it is not. we started out with one of the highest income tax rates in this region -- 6.45%. it is at 4.8% now. we created growth and it has. record number of new businesses filing into the state of kansas and small businesses expanding. record employment -- 4.8% unemployment, the lowest in america. those are data points you can rely on, and that is what is happening in kansas. and raising taxes not the way to

grow. >> rebuttal, representative davis? >> governor, you are trying desperately to rewrite your record and you are trying to rewrite mine as well. but you know it is not the truth. i have been a champion for our public schools. the republican president of your goddard school board is here supporting me because she and so many other leaders in education know who the real pro education candidate is. it is ironic you talk about raising taxes on the poor. that is exactly what you have done. your first tax plan you introduced would raise taxes by 5000% on people who make $25,000 or less. i think that is morally wrong. >> let's stay on the issue of taxes. this question is for you governor brownback. every taxpayer likes to hear the term reduction in taxes.

no taxpayer likes to live with a reduction in services. how will your administration resolve this type of dissonance? >> growth. that is what we are doing. look at the data yourself. growth. 4.8%. we are having difficulty in general aviation in wichita at this point in time, no thanks to president obama. paul davis is a two-time delegate. we are having difficulty with the president belittling general aviation and saying those fat cats in business aviation -- that hurts us. we need to grow. you grow by getting your taxes off of small business in particular, which we did. we took taxes off the small business pass-through income. you are seeing record numbers filing into the state of kansas. you go to people like teddy in topeka who had a temp agency. use the extra funds to expand into manhattan, kansas.

i see that all the time. i had a lady stop me after church two days ago with that message that she said -- we started a small business and we are working. of kansans work for themselves or somebody with 10 or fewer employees. when you recruit big business into the state, you can get them, but you have to buy them. small business is the right route to go and that is what we are doing. we are getting growth to take place. we ended this fiscal year with $434 million cash on hand. we ended with that much money . and we are increasing investment in schools of the same time at record levels. >> representative davis. >> all you have to do is take a look at the budget picture. $1.3 billion of debt over the next five years.

that comes from our nonpartisan legislative research department. you ask the governor what his plan is -- he does not have a plan. what is going to happen is more cuts to schools and more dollars taken out of our transportation plan. a proven job -- he has taken $1 billion out of the transportation plan so far and all you will do it take more -- that's all he will do is take more. more businesses closing in 2013 than opening. this year, the rest of the country is double the job growth that we have in kansas. this experiment is not working. it is not going to work. it is time we understand that and move forward. think about how we are going to be able to restore the cuts to public education when we are in $1.3 billion in debt. it will not happen. we have to end of the experiment now and we have to restore those cuts to our public schools or we

will not be able to grow as a state. >> rebuttal? >> paul davis is lying. we have invested record amounts of money in schools. go check with the department of education. we have fixed the pension system which was in bankruptcy. that he helped get into bankruptcy in the legislature and now it is out of the bankruptcy zone. his method of getting us to grow is raising taxes. we have also done every project that has been announced and said that we would do, including the one recently in wichita right now that is a nice big project to fix congestion that we have in this city. we are moving forward. what he is saying is data he did during the legislature, not what i had done.

>> representative davis, you can answer this question first. to be the greatest in the union, what resources should we protect, promote, and what resources should we dispense with? >> i want to respond first to the comments the governor just made. so disappointing. "the kansas city star" recently wrote an editorial called "the relentless lies of sam brownback." the things you have said in this campaign have been disproven over and over and over again, but you keep going. i was part of the bipartisan coalition that put that bill together to fix capers. all you did was sign it. the legislature did not want to go down the road you wanted to go down, which is going to keep the liability even worse than it was before. what we need to do as a state is to get back to the basics. we need great public schools. i am the son of two teachers. this issue is personal to me. all across the state, all i hear from parents, from teachers,

principals, school board members is the concern that they have never seen before to the state -- four the state of our public schools. because we have a governor who has never made public education a priority. when he was in the u.s. senate, he voted against education repeatedly. voted against afterschool programs, against teachers, head start. as governor he tried to get rid , of early head start. he has cut early childhood education. he cut k-12 education. he cut higher education. there is no way that we can grow and prosper as a state if we have a governor who will never make education a priority and that is his record. >> governor brownback? >> that is completely false. why didn't you fix capers when governor parkinson was a governor? you did not need the governor to get this done? because they would not step up and deal with the problem. we have the second least funded pension when i came in.

the only state worse than us was illinois. if they were not there, we would have the worst-funded system in the country. that's what gets you into bankruptcy. the pension system, with nearly a $9 billion hole and they would not fix it. look at where we were in jobs last decade, we lost private-sector jobs. during my administration, we have added 58,000 new private sector jobs. 58,000 new private sector jobs during the time i have been governor of the state of kansas. those are the things that have happened. by the way the question was on , resources. i think we need to deal with the issue of water. the ogallala aquifer, the resources that we have in reservoirs. i think we need to have a good solid discussion about this. i have credibility in this area. i've worked on the issue of water for years. i was the agriculture secretary. i think we have a serious issue

that we need to confront and deal with if we have a future in the state. it is one of the major issues over the next 50 year outlook that we have. we have a discussion going on. we had 100 meetings taking place thus far. we are going to address the issues of water moving on forward. we have done some of it already. use it or lose it on our water law, and we to do more of that moving forward of addressing the critical issues of water. >> the governor mentions bankruptcy. that is exactly where his economic plan is heading our state. $1.3 billion in debt over the next five years solely caused by the governor's economic experiment. economists across the spectrum, on the left and the right, deem this the worst economic plan in the country. the conservative republican senate tax tears stood up when this bill was being debated and said this was the worst tax fell -- bill he had ever seen. the governor proceeded

recklessly down the road and we are deep in debt if we don't end this experiment now. >> governor brownback, this question will be for you first. at see if we can roll a whole bunch of questions into one. the need for labor, plus needed changes in immigration policy , times changes in voting rights , equals emotional upheaval. what can we do to change this equation? >> you have a lot of questions rolled together in that particular one. i think there are issues we need to work on together. what i have tried to do in working with the legislature is , when issues like those come up, say, what can we do to move something forward? what can we do to unite together. there are a lot of difficulties and emotions. we have had a lot of success in moving things forward as a state and dealing with issues like the capers system. like getting some growth.

those are important things for us to do like issues like water. i think really what you have to do is just not say, ok, it has to be this way or that, but the governor has to set a course. you have to say, these are things that are important to deal with. i said we had to get some growth happening here. our budget when i came in was huge. i was facing a $500 million deficit in the next 18 months. we had virtually no money in the bank account. we had lost private-sector jobs. we were making half payments to schools. we were cutting provider payments to medicaid when i came into office. that was the fiscal situation we had at that point in time. it was what paul davis helped create. it is the one he wants to take us back to. raised just before that, the one cent sales tax -- his answer is to raise taxes, you will get less growth and be in a bigger budget problem. it is bringing people together -- that is how you solve this.

>> representative davis? >> when governor brownback came into office, we were poised for success. he talks over and over again how there is no money in the bank. he uses this $876 figure which has been disproven over and over again, but yet the governor keeps talking about it. it is one of those relentless lies "the kansas city star" mentioned. there were over $230 million in the bank when governor brownback took office. you know why? because people like me voted for a one cent sales tax so we could spare our public schools from another round of cuts and we could pass a comprehensive transportation plan. governor brownback has been more than happy to show up at every ribbon-cutting he possibly can for the transportation plan. but when it was being debated in the legislature, he was adamantly opposed to it. and if he was governor, we would've never had a comprehensive transportation

plan, and he is using every opportunity he can now to attack me for it. governor, you cannot continue to have it both ways. immigration reform is critically important to our state. the federal government frankly needs to get their act together and pass immigration reform because it is a crucial part of , our economy. we have many immigrant workers in the state that are vital to the economic success of kansas. i also stand behind the green -- dream act. i think it was the right thing to do. governor brownback was absent when he was in the senate when it came time to vote and it failed by one vote. >> rebuttal? >> i will agree with paul on this. on that number $876 -- that was what was in the bank account the year before i came into office. july 1, 2010. you are right. it really was not that. it was actually $23 million deficit. the prior administration deficit

spent and moved expenses to the next year so didn't show a deficit because you cannot legally deficit spend in kansas . and yet they did that because the fiscal situation was a complete wreck. we were looking at no end in sight unless you started to really address the problems we had as a state. >> the next question is going to be for you representative davis. the definition of marriage continues to be an issue of public debate. how will your administration respond to the diversity of thought, the diversity of culture, and the necessary sensitivity associated with this issue? >> when i was in the legislature, we debated this issue. i do not support the constitutional amendment. i did that because i thought it would damage the welcoming image our state has had dating back to when we became a state. the people of kansas decided they wanted that in the

constitution, and they did so by significant majority, and i respect that decision. the fact of the matter is this issue is out of the hands of politicians. there is nothing i can do, nothing governor brownback can do to change this issue. the courts will decide it. i think a lot of people on both sides of this issue which the -- wish the u.s. supreme court had addressed this. we would have some definition. the courts will have to deal with this and we have to go on from there. >> i stand with the people of kansas. the marriage is between a man and a woman. they voted that in this state by nearly 70% and put it into the constitution. put it in the highest document they possibly could. now, you have judges seeking to rewrite that. it comes back to the issue of judges for governors. this is something each of us have impact on. do you want somebody appointing liberal judges like paul davis? do you want somebody to appoint judges that will stay with the law like the ones i appointed?

i have had a lot of experience on working on the issue of judges. i was on the u.s. senate judiciary committee in selecting john roberts. samuel alito. i have appointed judges here in the state. julia roberts and. -- robertson. i have worked with administrations who appointed those. it is something the governor does which is to defend the constitution of kansas. in some places, the governor or attorney general decided they would not defend the constitution even though that is the way the people have spoken. the attorney general stood up and said we would defend the kansas constitution and i have stood behind them. paul davis has not announced a position. that is not leadership and you cannot duck the questions. you have to deal with the issues as they come up. you cannot pick them as governor. they arrive on your doorstep and

you have to do the best you can, but you can do that. it is not true there is nothing you can do. >> rebuttal? >> governor, your first choice to the supreme court referred to funding for public schools as wasteful spending. i would not call that a good selection of somebody who we want to have deciding critical issues. we don't need to be given the -- giving the governor more power over the judicial branch. that is what governor brownback wants. i want to go back to this welcoming image, because if we want to grow kansas, we need to let people know we want people here. governor brownback was an early endorser of a bill that would legalize discrimination and thankfully the senate president pulled that bill from the agenda because it would've been terrible for kansas. >> next question. the phrase kansas common sense is used in great deal. what does this phrase mean for you, governor? >> i guess it means to me what

looking the way my dad would at the world. he is an 83-year-old farmer in eastern kansas, one of those areas where leadership of the democratic party have put down. parker, kansas is my hometown. 280 people. it is looking at the world he would. he would say basically i am a conservative, but it has to work. that is what i have done. i am a conservative but it has to work, and that is what we have done in putting forward plans and proposals to create growth, because we were not growing. bob dole is one of my cochairs. he was originally elected the first time at the old sixth congressional seat in kansas. we now have four and we will be heading to three if we don't change the trajectory. we could have stayed on the same old path paul davis wants to take you back to of high income taxes. that continues to drive people out of the state because we are losing people to the surrounding states, but nebraska.

now we are getting people from all of our surrounding states but colorado, but it takes time. we know prior, if you have high taxes, you will drive people out of the region. common sense to me is doing the things you know you'd should do to get people on the right track and get off the wrong track. that is what common sense means to me. >> mr. davis? >> common sense means to me working together. bringing people together to find solutions that work. that is what i have done for 12 years as a legislator. i built a bipartisan coalition after bipartisan coalition. there is a reason those 180 current and former republican elected officials are supporting me, because they know i am the kind of leader that will unite people. i have been able to work with democrats, moderate and conservative. the governor has not been able to work with democrats very well and has not been able to work with a lot of republicans.

he decided to basically declare war on an entire wing of the republican party during the last election. it means we bring together people who have good ideas, who have a lot of experience. we will have the most bipartisan administration in kansas history because i don't believe that all the good ideas are in one political party. o'er all the good people are in a political party. when we set about to put an economic plan together i asked john moore and gary scheer to put together a business advisory group. former lieutenant governors, a republican. they went out and find seasoned business professionals, community leaders to advise us how it is we grow the economy. the governor did not do that. he hired a discredited, out-of-state economist that the state of kansas paid $75,000 to , to design this economic experiment that is a total failure. >> rebuttal?

>> representative davis and his complete left-wing move in his party -- make no mistake about it, he talks about being a moderate but he has one of the top 10 most liberal voting records in the kansas legislature. representing the community of lawrence. and he has put forward that policy consistently. that is fine, that is his proposal. he can do that. that is not the way kansans want. he has driven people out of his party. jim paul used to represent hutchison. she switched party being a republican because he driven his party so hard to the left. a number of republicans that support him also support raising taxes and they support obama care, neither of which i support but he does. >> last question before we moved to the closing statements. this is a good one. >> they are all good. >> what one thing, this will be

for you, mr. davis, to begin with, what one thing can your opponent say or do that might get you to vote for him in this election? [laughter] >> well, it is a little too late, i am afraid. i think governor brownback would say the same thing. i had hopes when we had a new governor coming in. and, i hoped that he would be able to achieve consensus in the legislature. i hoped that he would be a strong supporter of education. he came to the legislature to deliver his first message and said public schools are to kansas what the national defense is to the federal government. i could not agree with that more. that is right. the public schools are that important. the problem is the very next day , he submitted his first state budget and that budget contained the single largest cut to public school funding in state history. four months later, he got his

wish. he signed that bill into law and he declared that it was a victory. historic cuts to public education, a victory. we've all seen the consequences of this. we've seen the larger class sizes. we have seen the parents paying more fees than ever, test scores go down. we need a governor that will make education the very top priority. i have that track record. it is a personal issue to me. our daughter will walk into a public school classroom for the first time next year and i want her to have the very opportunities i had growing up here in kansas. strong public schools are the very foundation of a strong economy, and that is why we need a champion for public schools in the governor's office. >> governor brownback? >> it is pretty late for that. but there are things i can hear that could move me. some. if he said he did not want to raise taxes -- actually, if he actually told me where he stood on a lot of issues.

he does not even have an issue page on his website. he is basically running against me, but he is not saying, this is what i will do. if he said he would require work if you are on welfare which he voted against. work requirements on welfare. the way out of poverty is not to give a pittance to the people. the way out of poverty is three things. it is work, education, and family structure. he would not even say if you are able-bodied you had to work. if you say on judges i am not going to appoint liberal judges that want to rewrite the law, or have the law be as they see it rather than as it is. i want a judge to be an umpire, not a baseball player in the game. if he would say and stop lying about education. we are at over $13,000 per student. we just had a ranking of our public education system. we were ranked as the fifth best public education system in america.

kansas public schools. we have invested heavily. he voted against the last one, $130 million in property tax relief and education funding. paul davis voted against it but thought the other way. the cuts they made during the big height of the recession, i respect that but don't blame me about the cuts you made. >> rebuttal? >> governor, it doesn't change the fact that you signed into law the single largest cut to public school funding in state history. i'm glad you brought up poverty. one of your goals when you first ran was to do something about poverty, and you certainly have done something about poverty. you made it worse. we have more people living in poverty than ever before. one in four children are living in poverty. you look at the policies your administration has adopted. no wonder people like mary are wondering what happened to their

governor. they need a governor who was going to stand up for them and do something about poverty and that is what i will do. >> two-minute closing statements. we will begin with governor brownback. >> i want to quote this from the website. a new census bureau report shows the kansas poverty rate is coming down. and measurement released a last week shows the poverty rate dropped 2.3%. the poverty rate stands at 11.8% compared to the nationwide average of 15.9%. that is what the facts are. i would hope you look at the facts in this election and decide whether or not you want to go hard left, obama left, with paul davis, or you want to continue the course of growth, improving the state of kansas. i want to return one more time to the issue of judges because it has not been discussed this much in this campaign.

it is one of the key things a governor does -- appoint judges. it is a key function for as far as which way we will go as a state. one of the supreme court judges in kansas hosted a fundraiser for paul davis. i cannot believe they did that, but they did. this is a liberal judge -- liberal court that has overturned cases like the carr brothers. heinous crimes. overturned those cases. it will probably be appealed. they will be appealed to the united states supreme court. states supreme court overturned the kansas supreme court in a unanimous opinion by the u.s. supreme court. it matters what judges you appoint and whether they stick to the law or rewrite it. this is important. it has not been discussed this much in the campaign but it is critical how you move forward as a state. i will appoint judges that stay within the boundaries of the law and the constitution. we feel this constantly in the