commitment, q&a with a lincoln historian. then, david cameron takes questions at the house of commons. then rand paul and president obama in philadelphia. ♪ >> this week on q&a, our guest is harold holzer, author of lincoln and the power of the press: the war for public opinion." his book examines lincolns relationships with the press, both as a reader and a master of its potential first way. harold holzer is one of the nation's leading authorities on lincoln and the civil war.

>> harold holzer, another lincoln book. "lincoln and the power of the press," what number is this for you? >> 47 including co-authored . books and edited books. i don't want to inflate the number. >> you and i have chatted about lincoln for 21 years. how do you keep doing this? >> i get an inspiration or an invitation to pursue a path that hasn't been pursued before. for me, this was more inspiration than invitation. i plunge into it. i love doing research, i love doing writing. i love the conversation. >> what about the inspiration for the press? where did that come from? >> it came from my dual careers over the years. i was a journalist for about three or four years. i became a government public

affairs person for a member of congress, first aid wide new -- for state-wide new york political campaigns, for the mayor of new york. how government relates to the press was always part of my life. still is at the metropolitan museum. we work with government relations as well as press relations. just the idea percolated up in my head about how different it might have been in the 19th century both in terms of press culture and in terms of lincoln, almost imagining someone i would have worked for. what would he have required? would he have been as difficult, demanding, i should say? >> he owned a german newspaper? [laughter] >> you have to imagine a press

culture in which politics and journalism was interlocking. they were part of the same power culture. newspapers were party organizations through and through. lincoln had political newspapers that favored him in illinois, the surrounding area. this was pre-presidential. so he wants to be president by , 1859. german immigrants are flooding into the west, voting eligible german immigrants. they have their own german language newspapers. lincoln found out that this fellow had a newspaper in the southern part of the state but his progressive views didn't fly there. he went bust. he said the name of the paper and moved his printing press to springfield, it illinois.

then he got into some financial trouble and the presses were confiscated by a creditor. right after he makes a speech on immigration, -- issued a letter, doesn't do the speech -- i should correct myself. issued a letter saying, i am for voting rights. this new proposed law for limiting voting rights for immigrants is bad. like that, he makes a partnership. he gives them the money they need to get the presses. do people still know what type is? those pieces of metal that made up the words and letters that you had to set by hand to create a newspaper. the newspaper resumes publication. the contract only makes one stipulation. lincoln doesn't want any money. he doesn't want his name associated with it. all he wants is, you have to be conformable with the national convention platform of 1856 and the state republican platform of 1858. otherwise, i take everything back.

>> was it in the german language? >> it was in german. it was in that script that lincoln could not have known. >> when did you learn that? >> we knew this was associated with lincoln. but i found both copies of the contract. one, we had known about in lincoln's papers. but i found the copy with the contract after he was elected president up at brown university in the john hoeven library. the extent of his involvement, i think, is new. he tried to get somebody else for the money. he tried to get the state committee to pay.

one of the state committee men said to lincoln, this man is a leech. don't get involved. but i think the paper lived up to the bargain. lincoln wouldn't have known because the english language republican paper in town commended it at the end of the campaign, saying it had done great work for the party and the nominee. >> we first met in the studios in 1993. here is a clip of you talking about the press back then, in that program. let's watch it. [video clip] >> to understand why requires an understanding of the newspapers of the day. they were not nonpartisan. they were either republican newspapers or democratic newspapers. the republican papers around the country found that lincoln was making some interesting noise out of the west.

not the midwest in those days, but the west. they began republishing the text of the debates and sending correspondence to take the measure. there were eastern correspondents on hand. the democratic papers were publishing douglas' debates. they saw an indication of popular sovereignty in this notion that slavery could expand. >> you talk about the lincoln-douglas debates in the book. you spent a lot of time on this network helping us get through the story of lincoln. i wrote down a whole list of things that are going on today in the media and in politics. i wanted you to relate them to abraham lincoln and the things that you found in this book. the first one on my list is press conferences. did he have press conferences?

>> he never had a press conference. he would welcome journalists into his office, banter with them, they would usually ask for advance copies of speeches, he would say no, that would be the end of it. he wrote letters to journalists, to editors, but there was no such thing as a news conference in lincoln's day. >> second on my list is, did he prosecute anyone back in those days for leaks? >> yes. during the war itself, when leaks were considered advantageous to the enemy, the confederacy, there was one case in missouri. a general was upset because his promotion was leaked. not a very important detail and no big deal in terms of the war, but he asked the guy to identify his source. he refused and he wound up in prison until lincoln intervened. >> next, is prosecution for publishing secret information kind of like the prosecution of james rison from the new york times?

>> it happened. the environment during the civil war was very tense in terms of what the press could and could not publish. during the secession crisis, journals that suggested that this was a republican party war aimed at freeing slaves and saying that people should not enlist in the army, were subject to everything from having the post office refuse their copies to be mailed, having their copies thrown off trains by soldiers, editors being arrested, mobs attacking newspapers and throwing printing presses into the street -- democratic papers were prosecuted for publishing

not so much secret information, but it antigovernment information. anti-enlistment information. those that published anything about the enemy, about union troop movements -- one was court-martialed. general sherman had a journalist court-martialed for reporting on one of his campaigns. >> what happened? >> he did not go to jail. sherman was miffed that he didn't go to jail. he was banished from the headquarters but german -- sherman wanted him prosecuted.

general lee once had someone he didn't like ride backwards through camp with a sign that said libel of the press. the military prosecuted civilian journalists. on the other hand, journalists were everywhere during the war. they did write what we call the first draft of history of the civil war. but against great odds and without crossing that fine line between information and secret information. >> did newspapers have to shut down in lincoln's time because business was bad? >> the civil war tested the newspaper business. journalists were drafted, and small papers that had a staff of very few often had to shut down or suspend publication. certainly, newspapers in besieged territory like vicksburg where they had been publishing newspapers on

wallpaper because they didn't have paper, they shut down in the wake of general grant occupying the cities. the editor fled town. grant's soldiers typeset the final story, saying grant is here. so, they must have had some printers on the general's staff. other economic forces, like the prewar economic downturn, forest newspapers -- forced newspapers to merge much like we saw in the 1970's. the chicago press and the chicago tribune merged and became a much more powerful newspaper. >> were there columnists? >> columnists usually signed their names with a pen name. there were familiar sources, familiar names who people followed, but they had these cute pen names. abraham lincoln's private secretary, john hoeven, a gifted writer, just so energetic, he

had so much time, such a busy job, and yet he wrote a great deal. he would sign his anonymous pieces ecarte, a new card game at the time. that was his pen name. his stories appeared in the st. louis papers. >> do you have any idea when people put their names on columns? >> henry raymond of the new york times may have been the first to give a hint. he wanted very much to be a war correspondent as well as editor of the times. he covered the battle of berlin rudnick himself.

run himself. he covered the peninsular campaign in virginia. he often signed hjr. he might have been the first. >> you alluded to this in the clip from 1993 about newspapers taking sides. give us an example. i know you spent a lot of time on the new york papers. how many of them took sides, both on the editorial page and in the news columns? >> i don't disagree with anything that heavyset guy with the hair mentioned in 1993. by the way, i noticed they didn't show you in 1993. only a handful of newspapers did not take sides. they were republican papers or democratic papers. in every city -- take chicago. chicago had the chicago tribune, a loyal republican paper. pro-wink and -- pro lincoln, pro-war. the chicago times, which became antiwar, anti-lincoln, very critical over his tyranny of the press. ultimately, so provocative that general burnside who was commander of that part of the country, had his troops shut

down the chicago times in 1863 in a case that really caused lincoln political problems. democrats and republicans in chicago thought the army had gone too far. lincoln ultimately countermanded the orders. that is how far it could go. >> i want to ask you about what you learned in writing this book. in the acknowledgment, it said it took you for years. >> i learned that i could write unceasingly on saturdays and sundays without many breaks.

what i learned about the period, the most eye-opening thing that i learned in the book, one was lincoln's true mastery of the press as president of the united states. the small things he did to befriend influential editors, to write so-called public letters. that is, speeches or letters designed for one particular person, but really designed for broader public. he wanted his communications to go directly to the people through newspapers. on four or five occasions during the civil war, he wrote these masterful letters that explain his position in lieu of press conferences. the second thing i learned -- as a lincoln man through and through, i felt pained. i had known that during the war

the chicago times was shut down and a year later, a new york paper was shut down for some silly bogus proclamation that was misunderstood by the war department in washington. what i didn't realize was how many newspapers were suppressed during the civil war. not just in 1861 in the wake of secession when people were afraid that the government would fall. not just during these isolated incidents. hundreds of times. in the border states, missouri, kentucky, and maryland particularly. the government shutdown papers. in new york, repeatedly. it was in new jersey, it was in indiana. it was in lincoln's own state of illinois. just the sudden explosions of press censorship.

it goes up as far as maine. you can't go much farther north than maine. in massachusetts, a democratic journalist was targeted until he begged for mercy. he said he would never write things like that again. philadelphia, a newspaper that criticized lincoln's state of the union message was arrested and taken to fort mchenry. we all know fort mchenry as the place that inspired the star-spangled banner, and where -- we are near the 200th anniversary of that. fort mchenry was also a place where newspaper editors were detained without trial. we call them american bastilles.

they are still there, though the one in brooklyn is gone. >> you alluded to the fact that you are a lincoln man through and through. i'm going to show you a video excerpt of someone who is not a lincoln man through and through. this goes back to the year 2000. the man is laurent bennett. let's watch. [video clip] >> i am not nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social inequality of the black races. who said that? abraham lincoln. charleston, illinois, 2:00 in the afternoon. he said, i am not nor i ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, not to intermarry with white people. there is a physical difference between the white and black races which i believe will forever forbid the two races living together in social equality. lincoln was a racist. a major-league racist. >> a major-league racist.

>> he is talking about abraham lincoln in 1858. he is talking about a man who said those things quite intentionally because the newspaper editors who supported him thought that he was being portrayed as a radical abolitionist. when he got to charleston in central illinois, he had a major opportunity to save his campaign by saying he wanted only to prevent the extension of slavery into the west, but he didn't favor integration. i would say to not look at where

lincoln was in 1858 but look where he was four and five years later. look at the letters he wrote to editors talking about the fact that once african americans fought for their own freedom, there was no denying their citizenship and right to equal opportunity. he changed. >> in the middle of your book, on page 267, i don't know this name, colonel william -- smiedz? >> all these pronunciations are left to the imagination. he was a man who claimed that abraham lincoln had participated in an event in which an award was given to an african-american. that rumor was enough. during the presidential campaign, to cause henry raymond, the most loyal of republican editors to write to lincoln, to say, we've got

trouble. this affair is liable to blow up. lincoln writes, what a madman. i have never been to an event that honored an african-american. he wanted it squashed and it was. the mere idea that there could be such an exchange was enough, and i think that is what we have to understand about the culture of 1860, a racist culture even among enlightened republican voters. lincoln had to deny and squash stories. which he was capable of doing. >> this is a quote from smiedz --i think it is. you have so many things in this book that are sometimes difficult to trace because there are so many different people. it says, lincoln is not pledged -- this is raymond. let me start there. henry raymond and the new york

times. how close was he to abraham lincoln? >> think of this. there were some -- those who remember doris goodwin remember who was expected to be the nominee in 1860. he didn't win, lincoln did. raymond and seward had this plot to undermine lincoln's authority and have seward remain de facto prime minister. raymond rushes to washington to be there at the coronation and lincoln outsmarts them all. lincoln got him into the tent. from that moment on, completely loyal to lincoln, as was seward. >> the new york times today is a democratic newspaper. then it was a republican newspaper? >> absolutely. i don't think they would admit to being a democratic paper

today. they would admit to being progressive on the editorial side and straight down the middle in news reporting. in the 1850's, it was not straight down the middle. it was prorepublican. every story on politics was bent on attacking democrats and promoting republicans. the ultimate raymond henry loyalty -- in 1864, the editor of the new york times, who had already been a politician himself, he was lieutenant governor of new york at one time. in 1864, henry raymond becomes chairman of the republican national committee. he runs the national republican campaign while serving as editor of the new york times. could it happen today? i don't think so. >> journalists going in and out of government.

in this day and age, tim russert came out of mario cuomo's office. >> but tim was never an elected official. if you are a press officer, you can be in government and the media. >> governor huckabee is on fox. newt gingrich is on cnn. back then, how much of that went on? >> the speaker and governor huckabee are exceptions, prominent exceptions. it was all over the place in the 1860's. horace greeley, editor of the

new york tribune, ran for congress while he was editor, ran for governor, ran for lieutenant governor, ran for new york state comptroller, ran for the united states senate, lost all of them. john thorny was clerk of the house of representatives while he published his republican newspapers. some of these were patronage rewards. lincoln doled out rewards and appointments to many of the newspaper men who supported him on his path to presidency. journalism didn't pay very much so they lusted for government jobs. one of his chicago friends became postmaster of chicago. that is not only a good job, but you get to appoint your friends postmasterships. so, it was the patronage octopus

spreading everywhere. >> what about journalists having -- you don't see so much right now, but there has been -- journalists having special access to the president. they are allowed inside and they have an impact. i was reading this week that david hutchins of the post was in a defense policy meeting of the pentagon, the only journalist in the room. did that go on back in the lincoln presidency? >> it certainly did in the field. general grant had journalists around him who he trusted, and who reported favorably on his leadership. he needed good pr because a lot of people thought he was a butcher. general mcclellan, who had plenty of time to plan, but very little appetite for fighting, tried to organize a country of journalists in his command of the army of the potomac.

when they found out they couldn't report on defeat, even after the soldiers were retreating into washington, they dissolved the partnership. lincoln did not have journalists in his cabinet meetings, which is the closest thing to what you are saying. although, gideon welles, secretary of the navy, had been a journalist. simon cameron, his first secretary of war, had been a journalist. lincoln would bring journalists into the picture when he was ready. they would ask for meetings, he would give little talks. they were picked up in papers around the country. lawrence goldbright, fascinating character, he wrote a fabulous

memoir of his time as the head of the associated press bureau in washington. lincoln clearly knew this was a good guy to talk to. his pieces would be picked up by newspapers around the country. golbright occasionally got scoops and lincoln mastered the timing of it all. wouldn't give him early scoops but gave him scoops. >> congressman mike rogers of michigan is leaving congress at the end of his term to become a radio talkshow host. how much of that went on back in lincoln's day? where they left the government to become a journalist? >> there was very little radio. [laughter] but, they just went back and forth all the time. i'm trying to think of leaders that went back into journalism. there were part of it before -- henry raymond is still my favorite case in point. in 1864, he is not only running the national republican campaign, not only working on strategy with lincoln, and worrying that he was going to

lose, -- he though he had gone too far on black freedom, but he also runs for congress. when lincoln dies, raymond goes to congress. there all through the andrew johnson impeachment, and so aggravated by it. so he is one that stayed in the game, but in both games. he went back and forth. >> in the acknowledgments of this book, you talk about how you put this book together. you say that near the end of this project, you had a major accident. what was it? >> so this is your surprise question. i fell. >> it is in your book, is why i am asking. >> it was all the way in the back. i tripped and fell in april of this year, and shattered my shoulder. >> which one?

>> fortunately, not the writing one. the left one. went into surgery, didn't go too well, caught an infection in the hospital, had to have it redone. >> where were you in the process of getting the book done? >> i was in the key process of having my last shot at errors. every book has a few errors and the more you have an opportunity to catch them -- it was that process. i didn't trust myself.

my daughter, who is a terrific writer and proofreader, spent almost every day with me during the times that i was somewhat unhurt, and we both proofread together. she caught everything, tons of inconsistencies. i was so grateful to her and to my wife for taking care of me. i barely got to this point. >> this is a very large book, about 740 pages. i don't want to leave that with -- without asking, how did you fall? >> i fell over my 98-year-old mom's wheelchair as we were pushing her downstairs after a visit. someone on the bottom end said, i will pull, you push. i went flying over the top of it and landed on my steps a few steps down. >> have you recovered? >> not completely, but i have been told that if everything else is ok, meaning no further infection issues, it will take a

year to get mobility back and be pain-free. i've lost a little weight and i feel energized, and i can type and i can drive, and that is about all i was hoping i could get. >> as you said, you had written or edited 46 different books on lincoln. howdy you protect yourself -- how do you protect yourself from making a mistake? as you know, the lincoln world follows everybody in the lincoln world very closely. >> i was very fortunate. a few people who i respect very much volunteered to read for content as i was writing. my dear friend craig, who was hired professor at the u.s. naval academy, has unfortunately left the civil war to become a world war ii historian. he was the greatest fact checker i could have hoped for.

a young professor named jonathan white invited me to speak on lincoln and freedom of the press at christopher newport university in historic newport news, virginia. very impressive young man. he is like tiger woods if i am jack jack nicklaus. he writes a book every 20 minutes. when he is not writing books, he also was an amazing fact checker and generous young man who would research things that he discovered. my friend john -- i had -- the mistakes, if any remain, are all my fault. the absence of them, to the extent they are not there, are due to my friends who are such great readers. every historian likes to have

readers go over these books, especially if they are charting new ground. >> when the abraham lincoln library and museum opened in springfield, we took a tour of the library with richard norton smith. here is a clip of that where he is talking about the press. it is dark because that whole area is very dark. he will explain why. [video clip] >> long before lincoln was on mount rushmore, you have to remember, he was one of the most controversial presidents in american history. the space you are walking itough, as you can see, looks rather eerie, sort of a fun house without the fun. it reflects architecturally a country that is coming apart at the seams in 1861-1862. what you see on the wall are about 70 individual examples of contemporary journalism, cartoons, excerpts from

newspapers. all of them harshly critical of the president, in some cases mrs. lincoln as well. it really does tend to put into perspective modern-day journalistic coverage of the presidency. if you think it is rough today, you ought to look at 19th-century newspapers. >> to compare today with back then and what it would feel like if you were president today and back then. >> i think we are approaching a period in government and journalism, broadcast role as him, not c-span certainly, where we are getting that same affect. you have a totally different view of the world on msnbc than you do on fox news. that was the culture in lincoln's day.

richard is absolutely right. the one thing i want to emphasize is that it is not just that lincoln was the most controversial and most criticized president of his era before mount rushmore. it was all about politics. it wasn't that people didn't like him because he was too tall to western. it was because democrats wanted to defeat republicans. democrats colored republicans as if they were an enemy and republicans colored democrats in the same way. and not just editorially. the only difference now -- the only difference then, is that they were open about it. the new york times was a proudly republican favor. whig it was a proudly paper. died.en that party

the chicago times was an democratic paper. the world was a democratic paper. the chicago tribune was a republican favor. -- paper. the people who purchased the paper were all republicans. of course, it led to, in 1859 and 1860, the ultimate government shutdown. it is dangerous but that was the condition in 1859, as we hope it is not so dangerous today. >> back to our 1993 interview, what we are about to talk about had a big impact on this network. you will see why. let's just watch it. [video clip] >> have the debates ever been reenacted? >> they are reenacted all the time. i just came back from chicago about a month ago. i spoke before the stephen douglas association in chicago. it exists and thrives. among his neighbors in descendents, they go to his tomb every year and they have a

speaker and an annual dinner. >> where is he buried? >> in a park in chicago. there were these two guys from central illinois. i wish i remember their names, because they are terrific. a tall science teacher and a short insurance salesman. they were absolutely terrific. the lincoln character is about 6'7". he gives an impression of what lincoln might look like to today's people. they were just wonderful. but they cannot do three-hour debates. no one would sit through it. so they do half hour programs. , you can hear the rustling in the seats. >> we went on to do the reenactment thanks to the cities in illinois. the interesting thing is, you thank george, the man who you didn't know his name, in the book. >> george, i should mention, the short insurance salesman was the late rich. they did at least two c-span reenactments.

i think that was in 1994. i credit george because george became, of all things, a great collector of stephen douglas material. go figure. he has a wonderful painting of a young stephen douglas. he let me publish an early impression of another master of the press, stephen douglas. when he got to springfield, the first place he went to was the illinois state register in springfield. he became a friend and patron of the editor and vice versa. >> as we showed earlier, not everybody is all that happy with this group of lincoln lovers. here is thomas dealer renzo talking about historians and abraham lincoln. [video clip] >> when it comes to lincoln, you could criticize thomas

jefferson, bill clinton, george w. bush, franklin roosevelt, but you can't criticize lincoln apparently in the history profession. i thought that was on scholarly and unprofessional and closed-minded. i see no reason why you can't take a look at lincoln just like you look at any other president and look at the good and the bad as far as that is concerned. there is plenty of bad. lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus and the mass arrests of tens of thousands of northern civilians, shutting down opposition newspapers, these are things most americans have never heard of. >> what do you say to professor dana renzo? -- de larenzo?

>> speaking for myself, i do criticize lincoln in this new book. i think he did not personally close down hundreds of newspapers, but he tolerated the shutdowns. he didn't resist the shutdowns. he thought in his heart that they were necessary. he said you always cut off a limb to save the body but you would not destroy the body to save a limb. that was one of his famous letters to newspapers. i think mr. delorenzo goes too far and creates lincoln as the founder of the military-industrial complex. habeas corpus is being discussed openly all the time now. lincoln's shutdowns of the press i hope will be discussed openly as a result of this book. i mentioned not only that tea tolerated all be shut downs but there was an interesting thing that he also tolerated, and that is totally free press during his own election campaign in 1864, and to a certain degree in the elections of 1862. the press was free to say almost anything because he believed the people had a solemn right to choose between candidates even during a war.

>> also, i wrote down censorship. how much censorship was there during the civil war? >> tremendous censorship. there was this fear of shutdown and suppression and arrest. that was a floating censorship threat. for reporters in washington to get stories out, they had to use telegraph wires. the government took control of the telegraph and ultimately when edwin standen became secretary of war, he put the telegraph office in a library next to his office and installed a censor. the committee of the house of

representatives had a hearing to find out what was being censored. is it just military information? in this case, the censors stopped us from saying something about cabinet meetings. there was censorship of everything. on the other hand, if a journalist didn't mind being a little late, he would simply write a story, put it in an envelope and mail it. >> what is the story of the telegraph and the southern newspapers and cutting off the telegraph to the south? >> in 1861, lincoln for bade commercial intercourse with the south, and that included the transmission of news, all avenues of communication were cut off. that didn't mean that some richmond newspapers didn't find their way to washington. lincoln was always fascinated with what the southern newspapers were saying. washington. >> what is the story, a funny story, about noah brooks, when abraham lincoln sent his driver out to get the morning newspapers? >> noah brooks was a reporter for a california newspaper. he had no lincoln. lincoln took a shine to him and

-- he had known it lincoln before. lincoln took a shine to him and he spent a lot of time in the white house. i have to remember how the story goes. lincoln asks one of his drivers to get a newspaper. the driver could not be found. he didn't return. lincoln was really annoyed. the next day, he sent another servant to sit in his part of the carriage and order delivery men to go to the civil war equivalent of a newsstand. the other servant got out and brought the paper. the idea was to put the driver in his place. when the president of the united states wanted his newspaper, that was his job, to pick up the newspaper. >> another man you write about is horace greeley. who was he?

>> a crusading, brilliant, somewhat erratic elevator -- editor of the new york tribune. very interested in causes. ultimately, i am not a psychologist but i think he was unstable. genuinely unstable. >> on page 330, you start by saying, after greeley turned on lincoln. you go on to list a long letter that greeley sent to lincoln. what was the purpose of the letter? >> greeley was one of those who believed the union would wipe the floor with the confederate army, when instead there were casualties and deceit. he wrote this impassioned, desperate letter in his typically indecipherable handwriting.

any historic who has worked on horace greeley knows that it is almost impossible to read him. how lincoln or anyone understood what he was saying is remarkable in itself. greeley writes, tell me what to do, i'm desperate, what happens now is your responsibility, but i will do what you say, but maybe we shouldn't. it is a rambling letter, and lincoln very generously ties it up in red string and puts it in his desk. only two or three years later does he show it to his secretary and says, why don't you read this later? the secretaries read it and they say, if we ever showed this to greeley now, we could get $10,000 out of him to suppress this. lincoln says, as much as i need $10,000, i don't think we should do it.

so he tied it back up. that was only the first of greeley's inconstancy's with lincoln. things got much more serious in 1864. he tried to undermine lincoln on emancipation. he wanted lincoln to put emancipation back on the table, to get peace before the 1864 elections. >> the oval office conversation lyndon johnson had with some reporters, some reporters would say, tell me what to write. he said in this letter, send me word what to do. how many times do you find a

journalist saying to the president -- this letter is written in strictest confidence -- but how many times does a journalist say, tell me what to do? >> there was an implicit understanding that a pro-republican editor who got behind abraham lincoln -- during the secession crisis, greeley said, let the south go. lincoln was always aware that horace greeley was going to be tough to harness. some people called this the suicide letter. as you read, greeley says, i must live only until i get my instructions. so there was no instruction that we know of, no letter that called him down. >> another person you write about is william bryant of the evening post in new york. it is all around the cooper union speech. i want to read what the pro-douglas state register said. where is that paper? >> in springfield, illinois.

it is a democratic paper. when lincoln is ready to go to cooper union, they have a negative prognostication about what is going to happen. >> the honorable abraham lincoln departs to brooklyn under an engagement to deliver a lecture before the young men's association of that city. >> even lincoln thought he was going to speak in brooklyn. >> then it says, subject not known, consideration $200 and expenses. object, presidential capital. effect, disappointment.

that $200 was for what back then? >> that was a lecture fee. >> this is before he was president? >> yes, he was not an elected official. james gordon bennett of the new york herald called him the $200 lecturer for months and months. >> was that a lot of money? >> if you do it on inflation watch on the internet, it is like $10,000. that doesn't take into account the effect of real estate and securities growth. it is maybe more. it is a handsome honorarium plus expenses to go to new york and give your maiden speech. >> did people really sit still for two hours? >> as i learned, if there is

really good politics and really good oration and performance, people do sit still. not only did they sit still for two hours, william bryant was there, horace greeley was there, but after it was over it wasn't enough. other people gave speeches as well. shorter speeches. what else was there to do? it was either the theater in new york or lectures. lincoln was ostensibly giving a political lecture. he says about bryant, william bryant is a great anti-slavery man, very famous poet, but also a newspaper editor. a highly politicized one. someone saw william bryant in a brawl with a cow with and said, another newspaperman brawling. >> what was the biggest newspaper back then and what was the circulation?

>> the biggest was certainly the new york herald and the new york tribune. they got close to 100,000 daily during the civil war. greeley had a national edition that went all the way to the west. that is how abraham lincoln got to know -- and even before the presidency -- distrust horace greeley. greeley wanted douglas to win as a rebuke of the democratic presidents. it is complicated. those are the biggest. but the reach spread exponentially not only from national editions but from the fact that newspapers around the country picked up the reports of the times, the tribune and the herald. one person wrote, or more than one person wrote, all of the news from this country seems to flow west and south from new

york. you never see newspapers arriving in new york from other cities. new york became the great exporter of news and it was all political news. >> do you have another lincoln book? >> not really. i am thinking of getting my story in order to tell the tale of this book around the century -- country for a year. i am waiting for that invitation and inspiration that i talked about at the beginning. >> how many years have you been at the metropolitan museum of art? >> 22. >> all these books you have written over the years and edited are done at what time of day, when? always weekends? >> always weekends. i don't work fridays anymore which has been a boon for the last year and a half. i have cut back a bit at the

met. i became last year a fellow at the new york historical society. thanks to that institution, i have been able to travel and do research. fridays have been given to me as part of that weekend of investigation. >> this is going to sound harsh. >> more than showing those clips? >> does your wife, edith, ever say to you, enough? how long have you been married? >> since 1971. >> does she ever say, i can't take another day of lincoln? >> she doesn't. she is really good about it. she is reading my book now. she read it once to ask questions about the facts and repetitions of words, punctuation.

>> do your daughters ever say, he lives -- it is like frank williams, who you acknowledge as a close friend. he signs his letters off, yours in abraham lincoln. >> frank is a kindred spirit. we have lincoln on the brain, lincoln in the heart. edith is the best. she has not only been enthusiastic about my enthusiasm for 40 years, but she really made it possible for me to get through this last few months. it was not easy for her. she has been great. she consults when i'm not looking. >> put this in context. how much of what you have done is about making money versus your love for lincoln? or is it both? >> i must say, lincoln helped me put two girls through ivy league

colleges. i don't know if i could do it now, because that is another inflation marker that is off the charts. but it is really love. not just the thrill of finding new material and doing this kind of jigsaw puzzle that becomes a book, putting all the pieces together so they fit, but going around talking to people. i love doing talks. q&a on this show our conversations around the country, i love that. i'm really depressed about seeing that clip because i think i was better 20 years ago than i am now. i have to practice and gain some weight and get it to pay, whatever.

[laughter] >> we only have a short time left. what was the one a-ha moment where you found something somewhere? >> it sounds minor but i was living my friend -- visiting my friend at his museum in pennsylvania and he said, do you want to see my collection of newspapers from lincoln's assassination? he brought up these headlines. in one week, these three newspapers in new york that had been at each other's throats viciously for 20 years, attacking each other, disagreeing about everything, ran headlines that used the same words in mourning and lamenting the death of abraham lincoln. the nation's loss. the same phrase. a week later, they started attacking each other. but i thought that was great, to find in this museum, that there was a pact, a moment when the

newspaper wars took a pause. even if it took a tragedy to make it happen. >> the name of the book is "lincoln and the power of the press: the war for public opinion." our guest has been harold holzer. ♪ >> for free transcripts or to give us your comments about this program, visit us at q-and-a.org. q&a programs are also available as c-span podcasts. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] throughout campaign 2014 c-span has brought to you information about control of the next

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