the only other office that had one, and they were doing great using d.n.a. satisfied i was not with just having a reinvestigation unit, which we do have. to me the prosecutor's office has to work with training the young stltings and providing support on decisions they make at the projected of acase, as we do now with check lists that if we have an i d. list that there , that wethat the make sure we ask the right questions. there are things that we know now cause wrongful conviction protocolin our office to minimize the chance that we make a mistake in judgment. think that's the right way

to go. to end it, above all things, i think prosecutors and perhaps police officers have to understand that with all the we have, and it's enormous, there has to be a goes along with exercising it and an toerstanding that we want make sure that we have tried to facts and tothe not conclude simply because we firmly thatthing that shouldn't be questioned. and i think that's kind of self awareness and self analysis in all of us and maker office is going to us do better at conviction integrity. >> i think we'll bend a note of humility and thank the panel. they have been terrific. [applause] on c-span, a look at the

role of the justice department's in theights division ferguson, missouri police shooting. science related to native american history, followed by today's "washington journal" live with your phone calls. risen on how the u.s. government waists millions waraxpayer dollars on the on terror. >> stuart bowen was the only who really tried to investigate what happened to all the money that the united iraq. sent to and there's different estimates, over 11 billion of the roughly iraqi money that the united states sent back to iraq was unaccounted for. and what stuart bowen's investigators found was that

nearly 2 billion in cash, in it0 bills, was stolen after was flown from andrews air force base to baghdad, apparently by iraqis. and was being hidden in a bunker lebanon. >> sunday night at 8:00 eastern and pacific on c-span's q and a. join us sunday, dis7 as we get an insider's view of presidents through gerald ford through barack obama as we talk with ann compton who reasonly retired after more than 40 years as white house news.pondent for abc now former deputy attorney general bill yeomans, we talked to him about ferguson, missouri and what role the justice department civil rights division have in investigating the shooting of michael brown. this is 50 minutes. host: this week, in light of the decisions made in ferguson over the michael brown case, the attorney general talked about the status of federal investigations looking at that case. here is what he had to say.

[video clip] briefed byeen the deputy assistant general and members of my staff. they are overseeing the federal investigations into the shooting of michael brown as well as the investigation we are doing of the ferguson police department. i would emphasize we have two investigations ongoing. as i have said many times before and reiterated in my statement last night, the department's investigation will continue to be thorough. they will continue to be independent. they remain ongoing. they will be conducted rigorously and in a timely manner so we can move forward as expeditiously as we can to restore trust, to rebuild understanding, and foster cooperation between law enforcement and community members. aboutjoining us to talk this issue on our set, william

yeomans, the former deputy attorney general and former acting attorney general for civil rights. he is also a professor at the american university washington college of the law. thank you for joining us. guest: it is a pleasure to be here. host: why two investigations? guest: one is criminal and one is civil. the first is the possibility of federal so for its charges. -- federal civil rights charges. that investigation is proceeding. be attorney general has set it up to be independent of the local investigation. it is an investigation into the possibility of a federal charge that would require the government to show officer wilson shot michael brown with a specific intent to use more force than reasonably necessary under the circumstances. that is a fairly difficult standard to satisfy. not impossible, but difficult.

general gave no suggestion of one that investigation might be complete . you never know where an investigation might lead. that is the first investigation people think about. the second is a civil investigation. that means it would not result in putting anyone in jail. but it could result in significant reform of the ferguson police department. it will look at whether ferguson has engaged in a pattern of practice of violating individuals' federal rights. that can include a wide range of activity. from the way the ferguson police department uses force, how they train officers, how the discipline officers, how they relate to the community, whether there is racial profiling involved in how they decide to stop people on the street, all of that. the outcome that will probably

happen is the department will complete its investigation. it will sit down with ferguson and try to negotiate an agreement that will address the need for change across the board for the ferguson police department. if they reach an agreement, that will probably be entered in court as a disintegrate -- disintegrate decree. will department of justice investigators look at the same evidence the grand jury look that? is there other evidence added to that? guest: we don't know what they might find. they will start with the evidence the ferguson grand jury looked at. all of that has been made available to federal investigators. much of that was developed with the fbi working alongside with the local investigators. whether there is more, we don't know at this point. robert mcculloch, the prosecutor, put all of the evidence they had before the

grand jury, which was an unusual procedure. but all of that evidence is now available. he has made it public, another unusual step. how that affects the federal investigation is unclear. it is not certain the federal government will take its investigation to a grand jury. it could decide to do so if it thinks it has enough evidence. now that all of the evidence from the local grand jury is out there, that means every witness into the federal grand jury would have the evidence of the witnesses before, which is not an ideal circumstance for conducting a grand jury. you want the witnesses to come in at have to testify about what they saw, heard and know about the case. there is a natural tendency to adapt one's testimony to what you think others are saying. it is not that people are intentionally misleading. but sometimes there is a natural tendency.

that is not ideal. host: is the criminal investigation done on the ground in ferguson or out of washington? guest: the lead will be the civil rights division in washington. there is a section in the civil rights division as the criminal prosecutions. they will work with the u.s. attorney's office in st. louis. the fbi will be involved. investigation takes place on the ground in ferguson. as to whethersion or not to go forward will be made in washington. host: the criminal investigation has a high bar. what kind of evidence would they have to look at to make a different conclusion? guest: it is impossible to say what might make the difference. me say about these investigations that they are difficult. eyewitness testimony is invariably conflicting because these are conflicting

circumstances that unfold rapidly. is helpful if you have a videotape. successful prosecutions have turned on videotape. we don't have a videotape. federal investigators will be looking at forensic evidence. they will be looking at the blood, the distances, how people were moving. they will try to reconstruct exactly what happened. they will examine all the witnesses, all of the eyewitnesses, and all of the experts predict will talk to the people that did the autopsies. there were three autopsies. they will probably bring in some of their own experts to evaluate the forensic evidence. the fbi is expert in doing that. it is impossible to say there might be one piece of evidence they could come up with. they will look at the whole situation and decide whether they think there is evidence that would lead a jury to find beyond a reasonable doubt that

officer wilson reacted with the intent to use more force than necessary. to talkll yeomans here about federal civil rights investigations in light of the ferguson decision. if you have questions about the process, here is your question to ask them. the line for democrats, the line for republicans, the line for independents. what is the timeline for these investigations? never wise prosecutors put a time limit on their investigation because you don't know where the evidence will take you and what steps you will have to take. we know a substantial amount of work has been done. the federal government has the advantage of building on that. been some suggestion the federal investigation is far along. beyondthat, it is -- that, it is hard to say. i would not think it would go on for many months more.

host: in attorney general they don't want to prejudge evidence. ?hat processes are in place you have very expressed prosecutors doing these cases, people who deal with allegations of excessive force by police all the time and are familiar with how these investigations proceed. experienced very and wise eye to the evidence. they will be making the judgment as to whether the evidence is there. host: bill yeomans is our guest. questions from you. we start with new jersey on the independent line. caller: good morning. i hope you don't cut me off because there are a few comments i would like to make. tost of all, i would like distinguish between social justice, equal justice, and a pretense at justice.

to have these civil rights investigations is nothing more than an active placating -- an act of placating. if attorney general holder was really interested in seeking equal justice under the law, he would not have established a too big to jail policy. he would not have engaged in fasting periods -- fast and furious. he would not be complicit in the human trafficking going on at our borders. as far as president obama is concerned, if he were really concerned and interested in solving the problems in the heican-american community, would not be using executive orders to allow the streaming of illegal immigrants into our inner cities. host: ok, thanks. guest: i am not here as an

administration official. i will say it is hard to fault attorney general holder's performance also overwrites -- on civil rights. he has been a vigorous supporter of enforcement of the civil rights laws. if you look at the obama administration's record on these cases, the number of prosecutions has increased. what has also increased as the number of civil investigations into police conduct. i think it is a fairly strong record. i am not sure what more the caller would have them do. host: pennsylvania, tom, republican line. go ahead. caller: i think these types of investigations inevitably cloud the facts. are this of the case individual committed a crime and compounded it by trying to assault a police officer trying to arrest him. disingenuous for people like al sharpton to be making

political mincemeat out of the situation because that is ridiculous. we have societal problems that start at the top, one of them being the greed of those that don't want to pay minimum wage. when people call in to comment on issues like this, i wish c-span would get in the habit of asking them first, are they registered to vote and do they vote? the assertion of clotting effects of these investigations? what i think is important is to recognize what is going on. the difficultand job police officers have. they are put in danger on a regular basis. they have to make quick judgments about difficult decisions. we authorize them to use force and give them weapons. that means there has to be

limits on the use of force. this are about is trying to figure out where those limits are. it is important we police the limits or things can get out of control. we have too many shootings in this country, too many police shootings. i think most people would agree. one thing policing experts has done in recent years is do a lot of work on ways to defuse situations, ways to prevent this buildup of tension and anxiety that results inevitably in an outburst of violence. whether it is on the side of the community or on the side of the , who pull their weapons to quickly. investigation and the other investigations into police conduct are an exercise in trying to make this balance between our need for a safe society, our need to give police officers discretion may need to

do their jobs, and the need to impose limits on the use of force. host: north carolina, democrats line, robert. go ahead. caller: this whole thing about ferguson and the policeman, the policeman created this whole thing himself by going along hollering at someone walking along the road. me to get holler at the f off the road. there is a negative and a positive. when two negatives get together, you will get friction. the cop created friction himself. i think the caller suggests an important point. one of the police techniques

that has gained a lot of attention and has been fairly successful as community oriented policing. that is the notion that officers need to be part of the community. they need to be known to the community. they need to be in the community and not in the community as an occupying force. if you have that kind of , i think you are far less likely to have the situations arise. they tend to get defused. people have noted one of the problems with ferguson is the police department is overwhelmingly white, and it is policing a majority minority community. majority african-american community. i think there are only three african-american officers on the force of the leaf -- over 50 officers. that sets up a situation where there is a lack of community trust. things the justice department will be looking at is

the lack of diversity in the ferguson police department. they will look at the hiring practices that have created that lack of diversity. i think it is important to have a police force that looks like the community it is patrolling in order to win the trust of the community. as a way of preventing crime but also as a way of investigating crime. if the community is more willing to cooperate with police, the police will be more effective. host: the end result of the civil investigation, is that a mandate on the ferguson police? whatever they come up with, they have to do it? guest: yet, there are various ways to do this procedurally in the end. thetraditional pattern is ferguson police department and the justice department will sit down at the end of the investigation to engage in negotiations. the department of justice will have specific things they want ferguson to do. they will have lots of experts in policing working on this.

they will lay out their demands and talk to ferguson. if they can reach an agreement, the traditional path is to take that to court, have entered as it disintegrate -- dissent decree administered by the court. it can last for years while changes are made. host: are you censoring the police department for its actions? guest: what you're doing is improving the department. it is based on past actions. justice willt of have to find ferguson has engaged in a pattern of violating people's rights. manypattern can defend on -- depend on any number of things good lack of diversity could be one element of that. the way they engage in patrols on the street. whether they disproportionally target african-americans and law , whethernt activities

they adequately train officers on the use of force. do police unions come into this negotiation? guest: they have to be involved so they will have buy-in in the end. the successful implementation of reforms will depend on the cooperation of the police. host: bill yeomans has looked at these things firsthand, not only at the department of justice, but also as a teacher in washington, here to talk about the process of civil rights investigations. michael from imperial beach, california, you are on next. go-ahead. caller: i was wondering if you could explain to us regular .eople about grand juries i have gotten jury duty butters, showed up, got no pay. peopleheard grand jury get paid and are on for months at a time. how does the system figure out who is going to get a letter

saying you are able to serve on a grand jury? thank you, sir. guest: grand jury selection is controlled by state law and varies somewhat. it is the same way people get selected for regular juries in court. the jurisdiction will use voter , statistics, all of that, and come up with a list of people available to serve on a grand jury. the selection tends to be random. if you get one of those letters, it is the luck of the draw. but me say a couple of words about grand juries. ae is grand juries sit for long time. they can sit for months. they hear more than one case. a grand jury will sit often once a week. the prosecutor will use that same grand jury to present a number of different criminal cases over the course of their service.

in the course of one session, they may be hearing evidence about several different cases. the usual grand jury practice is very different from the way this grand jury was conducted. usually prosecutors are very much in charge. the prosecutor brings in a couple of witnesses, usually police officers who summarize the evidence. it is presented to the grand jury. the prosecutor presents an indictment, urges the adoption of the indictment, and the grand jurors vote. in this case, the prosecutor simply presented all of the evidence. did not take a stand on whether or not there should be an indictment. that process has been praised and criticized. the criticism has gotten less notice. it is a very unusual thing to do . it throws and all the evidence that my command to a trial, but it doesn't without the advocacy framework we usually have in trials.

there is no attorney on one side arguing that side and one on the other side arguing that side. there are no defense lawyers in the grand jury. hears the prosecutor -- there is the prosecutor. if the prosecutor is not taking a position, the grand jury can be a little at sea, i think. this is a procedure that is unusual and has come under criticism. host: this is off of twitter. how often does the doj find it necessary to investigating officer? guest: i don't have a number of how often doj investigates, but there are a lot of shootings. the fbi's most recent statistics show 461 police killings in the last year. everyone acknowledges that is underreported because it depends on voluntary reporting from local jurisdictions. the number is probably at least double that. of that number, the vast

majority are justified. it is a fairly small number that get sent through the serious criminal investigation process. all of them are investigated. every department investigate shootings. the local prosecutor looks to see if there's something that needs to be pursued. the justice department is overseeing the process to see if there needs to be further investigation. host: he follows up by saying, is ferguson and outlier? guest: i would not say and outlier -- an outlier. .t got a lot of attention on its face, it looks like a tragedy. it is a tragedy. it is natural for there to be follow-up by local investigators and the federal government. host: to follow up on your point you were making about the grand jury, the "washington post" said

almost 100% of the time grand juries indict people they are investigating. guest: in the overwhelming majority, there is an indictment because the prosecutor is suggesting indictment. the prosecutor will lay the indictment before the grand jury and have them government. that did not happen here. apparently, the prosecutor laid out five possible indictments and did not urge the grand jury to go with any of those. some said that sent a strong signal the prosecutor did not want an indictment because it differs so rapidly -- and radically from the way that grand jury had been dealing with other cases. host: here is ruby in missouri, democrats line. we do have a line for missouri residents. go ahead. you are on the phone, go ahead. caller: yes! host: ruby, i'm going to put you on hold. we will have you turn down your t.v. and come back to you.

we will go to dan and florida. go ahead. caller: i have a couple of things. my heart goes out to the victims of any crime, when the police or the public. i feel bad for the family. when does it come to a point when social media should not blow everything out of proportion trying to get a story? pointdoes it get to a where people inflame the rights and create the situations to where business people are the ones who pay the price for the social unrest? cp,the way cp -- naa sharpton, and jackson, they rush in and start sensationalizing. it causes social unrest. there never looked at as inciting civil

disobedience when it comes down to the beginning of the process, even before the legal process has not even get to a point where they can find fault one way or the other. host: thanks, caller. guest: your first point about social media. obviously, we are living in a new age when social media has enormous impact and can help create a story. i think the role of investigators is to move beyond social media and look at the evidence as developed by the investigators. while social media may make thething a story, it is task of investigators and prosecutors to make sure the media do not create a prosecution. your point about people coming in and talking about the

situation, i think it is important to remember the important roles civil rights advocates and others play in talking about social justice and helping us to draw lessons from these incidents that may help us become a stronger society. now obviously, when people cross over into violence, that is something no one should condone. i certainly don't. but i do think it is important we allow the expression of opinion on these important issues. what we have here is a situation where this one tragic incident has been used by people to try to draw broader lessons about our society and urge people to undertake broader action. i think that is perfectly appropriate. host: let's hear from ruby again in missouri, democrats line. caller: yes, i am concerned

because police officers have been killing african-american men since they developed police officers. it is nothing new in the south. even in the west and east, police officers always kill black men. you are dead, it is your fault. you are a young black man doing something instead of white america realizing this is what police officers have been doing since the beginning of time. it is fact. it is part of the klan. they are probably still officers undercover. it is sad no one is seeing the bigger picture. host: what you base those accusations on? caller: on fact. and 1930's,1950's police officers have been killing black men with a badge. host: mr. yeomans? guest: there is no question that in our country, we have had a problem with police officers

killing african-american men. we still have a problem. one of the broader lessons we have to take from this incident is we need to figure out ways to stop the killing or at least minimize it. i think there is no question there is a racial element to much of what goes on here. a very starkguson contrast between the police department and community. i think ringing diversity to the police department is hugely important. important, ast is the caller suggests, that we that arebroader issues colored by our history. host: judy from idaho, independent line, your next. caller: i would like to ask if

the civil rights investigation is going to extend to the casualness of this investigation, the lack of measurement, the lack of photos, letting the officer take his gun home with him that night. not photographing his hands, and things like that. that was incredibly sloppy. i am wondering if this is the usual way they investigate in ferguson. host: we also have a viewer off of twitter who asks a similar question about how the federal investigation will employ the existing investigation. guest: on the sloppy investigation, there do seem to be procedures that should have been followed that were not. the federal government will be looking at that. for purposes of the criminal investigation, those things will only be significant if somehow they affect the evidence relevant to whether or not a crime was committed. but all that information will go

into the civil investigation which will look roughly at how the ferguson police department conducts itself -- look broadly at how the ferguson police department that itself and as investigations. host: we are talking with bill yeomans, a former deputy general and former acting attorney general for civil rights. have you done these investigations before? guest: i have supervised many. host: what have you learned? what is facing those on the ground in missouri now? they are incredibly complex investigations. the eyewitness testimony tends to be very unreliable in these types of incidents. a shooting on the street comes out of nowhere. people start reconstructing what they think happened. in many instances, convince themselves they saw what they think about afterwards. host: mr. mccollum referenced

that any testimony about hands up. guest: it is a real phenomenon. that is why the tangible evidence is so important, forensic evidence, videotape. i cannot emphasize enough how important a videotape can be. one of the big cases a lot of people know about was the rodney king case. those officers were initially acquitted in state court and were prosecuted in federal court. four officers were prosecuted. only two were convicted. they were convicted because there was a videotape taken by a bystander. during the trial was the process of dissecting blow-by-blow whether or not it was necessary and whether or not rodney king was compliant at the time force was used. videotape can be extremely helpful. the other thing that is very helpful and does not exist in this case is if you can get other members of the police department to testify about what

they saw as they were on the scene. frequently, you run into the phenomenon that police officers protect their own, which can be admirable in the field but impede an investigation. you can run into the blue wall of silence, so it is necessary to try to get police officers to cooperate in the investigation. if you can do that, you can sometimes break these cases. in the absence of that type of cooperation and a videotape, in the absence of compelling forensic evidence, these are tough cases. host: harrisburg, pennsylvania, rose is next for our guest. caller: good morning. i am a republican. but i consider myself to be a fair republican. the thing with me is why was this officer not having to use a taser gun?

he said he was not using a taser gun because it was too heavy. come on. if you are an officer, you are supposed to be able to handle equipment. the whole thing to me stinks. just because i am a republican and i feel republicans are insensitive every time things like this happen, but this is my opinion. system,e ferguson law it is injustice! guest: i think it is a good point to suggest this case is an example of why we need alternatives to lethal force that police officers can resort to in these types of incidents. taser's can be valuable. they are not always the answer. more important is for officers to understand how to diffuse the situation before any significant use of force is necessary.

there may have been possibilities to do that in this case. but they were not used. host: does the martin family, after the investigations, does it in tribute to a civil case if they file one? guest: if the brown family -- caller host: apologies. guest: if the brown family wants to file a civil case, they can do that. the irregularities we talked about can be brought up in the civil case. the civil case will depend on the same kinds of evidence being looked at in the criminal investigation. once again, in the civil case, there will be a variety of possible state law grounds for the civil case. there could also be a federal civil case they could file, a civil claim they could file. once again, they will have to overcome this notion that

officer wilson was acting reasonably to protect himself. host: atlanta, georgia, john, go ahead. caller: i wanted to make mention bringing out the information late at night rather than at a more convenient time. it seems to me he was doing that rioters auditors -- would not come out and take away from the process as far as him exploiting the grand jury. i don't think that was right. also like to thank all the white folks that come out when something like this happens to put their lives on the line. i think the conservatives need to re-examine themselves. they seem to be the lawless ones. thank you. guest: the timing of the

announcement i find curious. we know most of the lawless mostior, i hasten to add of the behavior in ferguson was not lawless, the protesters were exercising their first amendment rights. but there was a lawless element. if it was going to come out, it was going to come out at night. by this was not done in the morning, i don't know. host: we have a little of mr. mcauliffe talking about the evidence presented. [video clip] >> witnesses made statements inconsistent with other statements they made and conflicting with the physical evidence. some were completely refuted by physical evidence. as an example, before the results of the private autopsy released, witnesses on social media during interviews with the media, and even during questioning by law enforcement, claimed they saw officer wilson stand over michael brown and

fire many rounds into his back. others claimed officer wilson shot mr. brown in the back as mr. brown was running away. however, once the autopsy findings were released showing michael brown had not sustained any wound to the back of his body, no additional witnesses made such a claim. several witnesses adjusted their stories in subsequent statements. some even admitted they did not witness the event at all but merely repeated what they heard in the neighborhood or assumed it happened. fortunately for the integrity of our investigation, almost all initial witness interviews, including those of officer wilson, were recorded. host: you have probably been in beganions where testimony at one point and totally changed later on. guest: absolutely. it happens. it is the phenomenon i mentioned earlier of people adapting their

statements to fit what they have heard or think may have happened. that is a dangerous thing. that is why it is important to have a thorough investigation. it is also important to subject witnesses to a form of cross examination. one of the things that did not happen in this grand jury was the kind of questioning one might expect from a vigorous prosecutor. officer wilson testified for four hours. that is very unusual in the grand jury. it is unusual the target of the grand jury comes in to testify at all. a prosecutor who was being aggressive would have taken advantage of his presence. i am not sure that was done here. if you look at the transcript, the questioning is fairly gentle. testimony can be all over the place in these cases. al is upm georgia,

next. go ahead. caller: i was calling regarding this case in south carolina. there was a gentleman about 68 years old, his name was ernest satterwhite. he was shot in his driveway five times. they shot through the car door. the police officers said he tried to grab my gun. there were other police officers therefrom a different county. they did not see this happen. they sent out an investigator. they did not believe the police officer's story. suggested voluntary manslaughter. the grand jury came back and indicted him for a misdemeanor. this is the kind of thing that

people in the black community look at. was shot for nothing. absolutely nothing. guest: i'm not familiar with the details of that incident. in instances where a state brings charges against a police officer, the federal government can still decide to pursue when investigation and a prosecution. if it thinks the federal interest in justice has not been medicated. i do not know whether the federal government is looking at the case. -- has not been vindicated. host: this is larry from missouri. go ahead. caller: i heard one of the legal commentators talking about that there was a supreme court ruling in a case in tennessee that had to be probable cause

overshadowing the police officer fear. that life was in i would like the professor to elaborate on that. if you knows is talking about. dealing with the witnesses that may have saw michael brown with his hands up, if there are various witnesses and some of were at different times, his hands may have been up. after he started getting shot, his hands would. could the professor elaborate on that? hast: the supreme court said that an officer can be justified in using force if he has a reasonable belief that his and safety or the safety of others is in danger.

overriding element to these investigations. whether that is here or not is what this investigation is really about. the witnesses who said that he had his hands up, there were several. robert mcculloch suggested some of them had either recanted their testimony or their testimony was inconsistent with the physical evidence. i'm sure the federal investigation is looking closely at those witnesses and comparing their testimony to the physical evidence. host: chris in alabama off twitter who makes the comment -- do these incidents suggest it will be widespread change? guest: absolutely. there is a real movement to that.

especially for smaller jurisdictions, it can impose a real financial burden. in large metropolitan police departments, it can as well. that theyecognizes are vital for the protection of community and police officers. who frequently face for yes charges -- furious charges. host: we heard about federal funds being used for military style equipment. guest: they could. it would be a good way to go. most police departments would be much better served by body cameras that armored personnel carriers. host: from florida, john up next. republican line. caller: good morning. thanks for taking the call. professor, good morning. i have two very distinct questions for you. the first is, when can a

a uniformedack police officer? , the guy who was apparently the "burn this thing down." what charges will be brought against him? attacka that anybody can -- that's not the way i was brought up. a police is in charge of the scene. any scene. the idea that you can go up and verbally and man hand -- where does that come from? thank you. i appreciate your concept of what i'm talking about. i think it is safe to say that nobody should ever physically attack a police officer. it is a violation of the law. confrontations can be

a different story. one of the things that we frequently get is conflicting stories about what was actually between a police officer and the member of the community. those conversations have to be examined carefully. it is impossible to reconstruct exactly what was said. we do put a burden on our police escalate a not verbal confrontation in 20 physical confrontation. -- into a physical confrontation. how did this get going? what was said? how did the physical confrontation get started? as far as the statements of the stepfather after the grand jury decision was announced. obviously, it can be problematic in a violation of law to incite violence.

toevaluating whether or not pursue prosecution, it's important to take into account the circumstances. whether the incitement had any effect. the circumstances of that person who is speaking at the time. this is a man feeling enormous passion. i don't know whether there will be any follow-up or not. host: from florida as well. democrats line. there is a great segue into one of the statements that i need to make. guy six calls back who talked about sharpton and jackson and stuff. i would bet my lunch that he will be one of the first ones to --e out and say that we need for some people, the constitution does not work. in officer wilson's tv

interview, he said the situation estimated -- escalated when he received a barrage of punches sitting in his car. imaginerd for me to someone the size of brown throwing punches through a window. there is not a barrage of punches. i would like your guest to comment on that. have notviously, i tried to regrade the ability to punch. it is a curious situation. -- re-create the ability to punch. the thought that he was assaulting and intimidating officer wilson while officer wilson sat inside his car. it makes you think there may have been alternatives.

beyond that, it's hard to say much at this point. some people might suggest put the window up or drive on it and call for help. imminent,eat was officer wilson would still be entitled to respond with force. host: one more call. dave from michigan. . -- independent line. caller: a question for your person there. nothing was ever said about what could have been escalated to the point beyond what it did. that would be when the officer actually -- wilson feared for his life to the point of the security of his vehicle, in order to -- before his backup arrived. i'm curious if that was looked

at. was the point where if wilson was overcome by mr. brown, whether the car could have been overcome and escalated to the point of way beyond what it did. guest: i'm not sure there was any danger of further escalation. officer wilson -- michael brown ran away after the first two shots were fired. officer wilson was able to get out of his car. the shooting occurred at some distance from the car. i'm not sure how the car would have come back into play. cases are these concluded by the justice department, will there be a final report or press conference? in this caseect the justice department will try to be as transparent as possible. in the usual criminal investigation, there is no

announcement made. there will be an announcement in this case. the other question is whether the federal government will give access to the evidence that was developed in its investigation. one way it does do that in civil rights cases is that it writes a closing memo. availableis generally with names redacted. i suspect that process will be carried through. host: > on the next "washington journal," kevin kuhlman. consumer program

director of the u.s. public interest group on congressional efforts to protect consumers who had their credit card information stolen. plus, your calls, comments, and tweets. liveington journal" is beginning at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. here are a few of the comments we have received from our viewers. journal"ington first thing in the morning -- wonderful. i appreciate you guys letting people such as myself call in and sometimes even talk to people who are running our country and our world. justu guys do a good job laying it out on the table for everybody to see. not using preferential treatment

on the information. i appreciate you. keep up the good work. thank you. >> i enjoy c-span 1, 2, and 3. i watch it off and on all day long. i am at home and i like to see what is going on. you make it convenient for me to know what is going on. >> i have been watching c-span since its inception in the 1980's. source oflmost only civil, intelligent, on biased programming. collegelso my post- education. ree different th channels in west palm beach, florida. i don't know what i would do without it.

because the regular networking programming is so biased and andereft of logic and fact commercialism that iget gets to be unbearable. i do not know what i would do without c-span. it is on my tv all day long. thank you. >> continue to let us know what you think. call us at 202-626-3400. e-mail us -- or you can send us a tweet. join the c-span conversation. like us facebook, follow us on twitter. coming up on american history tv, tours of sites related to the history of native americans. . little bigattle of also known as custer's last stand. then to new mexico's pueblo, mimswed by a tour of fort

in alabama, site of the 1813 massacre. park in montana with his cave paintings. >> in the battle of little big horn, warriors defeated the seventh cavalry regiment of the united states army and killed the commanding u.s. officer george custer cared we will hear about the conflict from a park ranger as a little bit corn battlefields national monument in montana. >> folks, this is an incredible story. it

>> this is an incredible story. hem, 90% of the time never been here in their lives. i like to see who you are this morning. if you've never been here in your life, please put your hand up. look around. it is always the same. tykes over here, there's nobody in this audience who has never heard of george armstrong custer. there's nobody in this audience who has never heard of sitting bull or crazy horse. and i promise you this, there's nobody here who has never heard of elvis presley. well, folks, it's a simple story. and yet it's a complex story. you are on the battlefield right now.

and it stretches five miles to the south of us, well beyond the in the hill, way out there, five miles. on june 25, 1876, george armstrong custer with 647 troops will attack a massive camp located about a mile and a half to two miles to the south of us down in the river valley bottom. there's 8,000 people in that village. 1,500 to 2,000 of them are warriors. custer will have 647 troops. it's the only battlefield in the country, only one of two in the whole world, where white markers indicate where soldiers were killed on the battlefield and buried where they fell. red markers, like the one at the mouth of deep ravine, just to the left of this gentleman, 17 warrior markers across the battlefield, much more warriors died in the fight. but we've got 17 markers placed there by oral histories and families. they're not buried on the battlefield. they are picked up very quickly and later buried in trees and caves and scaffolding. on top of the hill, just below the monument, custer perishes at

the age of 36 years old. buried in an 18-inch grave. disinterred a year later, what was left of him, placed in a box about this big, taken back to west point, where he's buried today. five years after the battle, skeletal remains all over the ground scraped up by reburial detail, placed in a mass grave on top of the hill in 1881 where the monument now stands. across the street, the indian memorial dedicated in 2003 to the warriors and tribes who fought here in a desperate attempt to hang on to their very way of life. and behind us, a national cemetery with the remains of nearly 5,000 veterans and their families, not related to the battle, like arlington veterans, spanish-american war,

world war i, world war ii, korea, and vietnam. closed in 1978, full to capacity today. folks, it's quiet here now. it's peaceful. tranquility here. but 137 years ago, on the back of that ridge, it was far from quiet. in fact, it was apocalyptic chaos, gunfire, smoke, yelling, screaming, cursing, more ammo, more ammo, eagle bone whistles shrieking across the battlefield in the bust and the smoke. warriors getting closer and closer and closer, desperately trying to destroy the soldier command. apocalypse at little big horn, custer's final battle.

how did this happen? why did it happen? well, folks, it's really a culminating event because it marks nearly 400 years of cultural animosity, cultural friction, cultural disdain between euro-americans and native americans and the fight was always over the same thing -- >> land. >> land. land -- who would occupy it, how it would be used, and who will be allowed to traverse across it, because, you see, when euro-americans come out west, see huge expanses of territory. and they see grass and water and timber. and minerals in the ground, particularly that yellow metal that makes the white man go crazy. and when they see all of these resources, they envision farms and towns, ranches, railroads, telegraphs, and barbed-wire

fences, all of it driven by a near religion called manifest destiny. manifest destiny, the belief that somehow euro-americans are sanctioned, they're ordained by god to spread across the continent. conquer it, subdue it, tame it. from coast to coast. from sea to shining sea. there's just one problem with that vision. there's people already here. and they have their own vision of what life should be like, and i'm going to argue this. they are the freest people on earth, because when they get horses in the early 1700's, they can go from mexico to canada in pursuit of huge herds of the 1,400-pound super walking walmart store of the plains.

food, shelter, clothing, weapons, utensils, fuel, medicines, and about 50 other uses. and, by the way, ladies and gentlemen, in 1840, there are 60 million buffalo on the plains. and by 1890, less than 500 left on the planet. when euro-americans come out west, they want to turn the sioux and cheyenne and arapaho and blackfoot and crow, they want to turn them into christian farmers. well, sitting bull is not about to bend over and scratch and claw at the ground with a hoe to try to make a living. and crazy horse is not going to surrender his pony and hook it up to a plow. they are hunters and warriors. and that's their vision. folks, in the mid 1870s, 1873,

there's an economic crisis. the stock market crashes. the banking system rolls over. the panic of 1873, people are losing their jobs, their life savings. there's 20% unemployment. does any of that ring a bell? it's tough times in america. ulysses s. grant is the president of the united states. he's going to have to rev up the economy or he's not going to get re-elected. he needs an economic stimulus package, and george custer is going to provide it. gold in the black hills. the summer of 1874 custer leads an expedition. now it is a reality. there is gold in the black hills. newspaper reports say all you have to do is walk through the grass and pick up nuggets off the tops of your shoes. miners, prospectors pour into the hills. overnight, deadwood. 3,000, 4,000 people real quick.

every one of them is an illegal alien because the black hills belong to the sioux, guaranteed by the treaty of 1868, a white man's promise. no white people allowed in the black hills. wild bill hickok shot in the back of the head. he's an illegal alien. so is his friend calamity jane, because the sioux call the hills paha sapa, sacred ground. president grant sees an opportunity there. he wants to get at that gold, rev up the economy, create jobs. put money in the treasury, so he's going to try to buy the black hills. $7 million, that is a of a lot of money. but sitting bull, crazy horse, no, not for sale. you don't sell the ground your ancestors walked on and now

their remains lie beneath. not for sale. well, how about if we lease them? we'll give them back when we're done. no, thanks. in frustration, grant hands the problem over to the war department, the architects of a back. -- the architects of a military campaign, to sweep the sioux back. it's going to be designed by two old civil war comrades. if you remember, those two old boys burned down half of the south in the war between the states. they know what total war is and they're going to try to wage it again on the northern plains. they're going to issue an ultimatum to the sioux. it's pretty straightforward. it goes like this. get out of the black hills. get out of the powder river country. get out of the rosebud country and go back to your respective

reservations in the dakotas and stay there. and do so by january 31, 1876, because if you don't, you're going to be considered hostile. and the army will come and get you and force you to return. runners are sent out to inform the villages of this edict, but it's a bitter winter. the winter of 1875 and 1876, howling winds, drifting snow. 45 below zero, not uncommon on the northern plains. you're not going to move a village. there's no grass for the ponies. but more commanding than the weather itself is the council from sitting bull who says to the people, don't go back. don't go back to that reservation and make yourself a slave to a piece of fat bacon and some coffee and sugar. stay out. live like a real indian while you still can. hunt buffalo while they still

exist. he knew the sun was going down. and so they stayed out. they didn't go back. and by the early spring, those who wintered on the agencies began to trickle off and reinforce sitting bull and crazy horse out here. and by the early summer, they are pouring off the reservations. so much so that once again we've got this village two miles to the south of us. 8,000 people in it. 1,500 to 2,000 warriors that are not going back to bad flour and rotten meat and starvation on the reservation. they're going to stay out here. the stage is set. 8:00 in the morning, george armstrong custer is up on those wolf mountains way out there on the far horizon, 15 miles out. a place called the crow's nest. his scouts have gotten up on top there and they've looked down in the wee hours of the morning and they've seen smoke rising from the tipis.

he goes up to the crow's nest at 8:00 in the morning, looks down into the valley with a cheap spy glass, but he can't see a thing because the breakfast campfires have turned the valley into los angeles. the scouts tell them, look for worms in the grass. folks, little big horn river is right below us. that thick green line of trees at the bottom of the ridge. across the valley to the second line of trees, above those trees on the bluffs, the morning of the 25th, there's 20,000 horses grazing. 20,000. worms in the grass. custer can't see them. the scouts are very alarmed. you better not go down there. you don't have enough bullets in your whole command to fight the sioux. but other scouts see it differently. you better attack because that village is going to run.

they're going to scatter. they're not going to fight. custer's favorite scout bloody knife and arickerus says to him, general, if you and i go down there today, we'll go home on a road we've never walked before. custer says, i think we can get to all of them in one day. fearless, aggressive, relentless, vain, arrogant, overconfident, a glory hunter. well, folks, for 137 years, he's been judged by one battle. his last one. however, the record shows that he has been in battle after battle after fight after battle in the american civil war. 100 engagements. he's had 11 horses shot right out from underneath him.

sabre charges. no scars. sometimes he so far out ahead of this man he's in confederate territory all by himself. when lee surrenders to grant in the spring of 1865, surrender documents are signed, ceremony is concluded. when it's all over with, phil sheridan picks up the table that the documents were signed on, later presents it to elizabeth custer with these words -- "i don't know of anyone who has played a greater role than ending this tragic conflict han your gallant husband." that table is in the smithsonian today. arrogant, vain, overconfident, aggressive, fearless, relentless, legendary.

the boy general, brigadier, 23, major general, 26. he leads thousands of men into battle time after time after time. his success, the adulation he receives, the recognition is going to contribute to his death certificate on the back of that ridge. custer decides he's going to attack. he orders captain frederick benteen off to the south to scout with 120 men, three companies. benteen hates custer's guts. has no use for him. benteen questions his orders. general, if this village is as big as they say it is, we're going to need every man we've got. you have your orders, benteen. follow them. you're dismissed. benteen hates custer. custer hates benteen. reno hates both of them. reno and custer come off the divide 12 miles out. seven miles out.

three miles out in the river crossing. the scout gerard sees 60 racing toward the village in the north. he screams out, there go your indians, general. and they're running. like devils. custer sends an immediate order to major marcus reno, second in command. major reno, the village is just ahead and running away. move forward at as rapid a gait as you deem prudent. pitch into anything. sweep everything before you and you'll be supported by the whole outfit. reno crosses the stream. he cinches up his equipment, tightens the saddle girths and charges down the valley toward the massive camp four miles beyond. he's got 140 men. inside the village, it's chaos. they didn't expect to fight. they're caught off guard. when the village crier see the

soldiers, they scream out, the chargers are coming. the long knives. the blue coats. old women hobbling on sticks trying to get away. young mothers frantically racing around trying to find their children who are swimming and playing. inside the camp, sitting bull, 45 years old, spirit warrior, too old to fight, but not to lead. he exhorts the warriors on. brave up, brave up, strong hearts to the front. cowards to the rear. it's a good day to die. 14-, 15-year-olds race out of the village on horseback. they tie sage brush to the backs of their ponyies' tails and ride back and forth creating a giant just cloud. as he thunders down the valley faster and faster and faster at 700 yards, he knows two

things. number one, the village is not running away. and, number two, he's never fought the sioux and the cheyenne before. at 400 yards, he will scream out, halt, dismount. form skirmish lines now. fight on foot. 140 men attempt to rein their horses in at 20 miles an hour. privates smith and turley, two city boys. they don't know how to ride too well. they can't even stop. they go right into the camp. their heads later found on poles. 138 men dig in. every fourth man is a horse holder. he takes his horse and three others. pulls them off the battle line, back into the timber along the river, protect horses and ammunition from the advancing

warriors. now that cuts down the firing line to 90 soldiers spread across the valley floor in five-yard intervals, skirmish line formation. and in 10 minutes, they'll face 600 warriors. the company commanders order volley fire. they take their big boar springfield car bean, 45, 55 trap door single shot. it shoots a big bullet. and if it hits you, you're going down. and most likely some of your anatomy is going to fall off. they open the trap, drop the cartridge into the breach. close the trap. cock the weapon. ready, aim, fire. boom, 90 guns go off. open the trap. eject the spent cartridge. throw a fresh round in. close the trap. cock the weapon. ready, aim, fire, boom, another 90 rounds go off. big bullets rumbling into the village, crashing into the

tipis and dropping some of them on the ground. inside the village, a warrior named gall. gall is painting himself up for war. he's 6 feet tall and he weighs 250 pounds. his two wives and three daughters are killed by reno's charge. when he found out, he said, it made my heart bad. and i fought back. ith the hatchet. gall, crazy horse, they roar out of the village like angry bees out of a hive and slam into reno. after 20 minutes, reno collapses and falls back into the timber. he digs in for a second stand but now the warriors light the grass on fire behind him. they snap buffalo blankets and run off his horses. he's feeling very, very uncomfortable. he finally screams out to the scout bloody knife. bloody knife, what are the

indians going to do? boom. bloody knife takes a bullet right in the head. his hot brains and blood go all over reno's face. right then and there, major marcus reno invented the modern term post-traumatic stress syndrome. he barks out conflicting orders. mount, dismount, mount. guys are going up and down and then he screams out, those who want to make their escape and live, follow me. he crashes out of the timber, races back towards the river four miles beyond, other soldiers are trying to catch up. it's a rout. there's no attempt to cover the retreat at all. warriors race up next to the fleeing soldiers and pump their winchester and henry repeating rifles into the command. two moon said, we mowed the soldiers down. it was like a buffalo hunt.

we came up behind the soldiers. we slipped our bow strings over the soldiers' heads and jerked them off their horses, pounded them with clubs and took their guns. and we counted -- which means to touch an enemy with a stick. you're not brave. why are you here? you did not bring enough soldiers. you better go back and get more. 40 men will die in this race with death through a gauntlet of hell. they get to the river crossing. horses plunge off the bank, crash into the stream. flounder, and men drowned. warriors on top of the ridges rain bullets into the crossing. ladies and gentlemen, the river was red with blood. his was war. it wasn't cowboys and indians. it wasn't john wayne. it was war. reno scratches and thrashes

across the river, climbs out on to the bank. gets on top of the high ground five miles to the south of us. this road will take you right to it. he is a fractured commander and his battalion is whipped and demoralized. about 10 minutes later, captain benteen approaches reno on the high bluff after scouting to the south. he sees reno and snarls, where's custer? reno says, i don't know where custer is, but for god's sake, benteen, halt your command and help me. i've lost half my men. benteen has a message in his pocket. it's from custer, delivered to benteen on the back trail by martini, the italian orderly of the day who has a real tough time with english. benteen hands the note to reno.

it reads, benteen, come quick. come on, big village. bring packs. p.s., bring packs. ammunition packs. neither one of those officers is going to respond with any sense of urgency to that order, and it will haunt them for the est of their days. in the meantime, custer advances to the north with five companies, 209 men. he tries to go down off the ridge and cross the river at medicine tail coolee, 2 1/2 miles to the south of us, it's a low point in the valley, a freeway crossing into the cheyenne camp. all companies gather at a place called calhoun hill today. if you'll lend me your eyes, i want to show you where that is.

ok, we've got the monument. we go south along the monument. we see that suv on the ridge. by the way, that wasn't here in 1876. we drop down the ridge and then it rises up. three clumps of green brush. can you see it out there, folks? it's a big country. three clumps of green brush just beyond there was calhoun hill. james calhoun, custer's brother-in-law, with about 85 soldiers, he forms a skirmish line facing the south. and for 45 minutes he flails away trying to hold warriors back, but then gall, crow king, low dog, crazy horse, after pounding reno into hopeless submission, they peel off of reno, roar down, and slam into calhoun hill like a red tidal ave. company l and james calhoun are blown off the ridge. a thousand yards out in front of us, c company mounts their horses and charges down the

hill, driving warriors back. they dismount and form a skirmish line and fire into the fleeing warriors. temporarily there's a change in momentum. but a southern cheyenne chief named lame white man, he gets off his horse in the middle of the battle field, turned to the fleeing warriors and says, come back, come back. there's not that many soldiers. we can kill them all. they rally up behind lame white man, storm back up the ridge and crash into c company. they snap buffalo blankets and run off c company horses and they kill their horse holders. most of the c company boys are cut down. those few left alive unhorsed and they run to the top of battle ridge. hoards of warriors race down the west side of the river and cross below us that deep ravine. they pound up the ridge 200 yards out in front of us and go right up on top of the ridge. they look down hearing gunfire

on the other side, and they see crazy horse. crazy horse is fearless, aggressive, relentless, and he is hostile to any white intrusion into the powder river country. he's also 36 years old, the same age as custer, and he has no fear, because as a kid, he's had a vision, the great spirit comes to him in a dream at the age of 14 and says you are to protect your people. bullets and arrows will never harm you. you will not die from a bullet or an arrow. but be humble. don't boast or brag. don't draw attention to yourself. a very tough assignment in a warrior culture that's much like the nfl. crazy horse charges down the ridge and goes right into the teeth of miles keel, the fighting irishman. company i commander. 45 dismounted skirmishers fire at crazy horse. boom, they don't hit him. they reload a second time. white bull does a bravery run right in front of keel.

boom, they don't hit him either. the other warriors inspired by the courage of crazy horse and white bull charge down -- they reload a second time. white bull does a bravery run right in front of keel. boom, they don't hit him either. the other warriors inspired by the courage of crazy horse and white bull chaurge charge down the ridge, slam into keel and grind company i into gall whose overrun calhoun hill from the south. company i ceases to exist. the only remnants of the firefight, 45 white tombstones on the other side of the hill. they look like ghosts in a lunch line. one survivor. a horse named comanche. miles keel's horse shot full of holes. leaking blood all over the prairie. they found it down by the river sucking in water, but more is leaking out than it can take in. the horse is put on the boat far west, taken back to ft. abraham lincoln. that horse will live another 16 years. never ridden again.

the only time a saddle touches that horse's back is in a funeral with boots pointed backwards. by the way, folks, that horse ate apple pie whenever it wanted. it's resting in a glass case now in lawrence, kansas. calhoun is dead. keel crushed. lieutenant custer swings out beyond probably 80 soldiers. he's going to go out through the current cemetery, drop off the ridge and try to cross the river and capture the women and children and screaming old people who have fled to the north to escape reno's charge. lots of warrior accounts testify to this maneuver. but he can't get across the river. once again, veterans turn him around. he has to fight his way back up through here where he drives warriors off the top of the hill and digs in where the monument now stands. about the same time that keel caves in. and as i said, folks, at the very beginning, now the fuel fury of 1500 to 2,000 warriors will bear down on to last stand

ill. the sky is raining arrows. gunfire, smoke, yelling, screaming, cursing. warriors getting closer and closer. two moon, the cheyenne chief. we swirled around the soldiers like water around a stone. gall, the soldiers were fighting good. they were loading and firing and loading and firing. but 35 or 40 of them on gray horses, bolted off the ridge. they went down into the ravine and we killed them all. 28 dead men found after the battle in a heap at the bottom of this trail. buried in a crack in the earth. e company, the gray horse troupe. back up on the hill. cheyenne wooden leg. it looked like a thousand dogs in a fight. low dog. the soldiers kept fight bug then they threw their big guns

on the ground, and they took out their little guns and they tried to kill us, but they shot wildly in the sky as their horses bucked and shied and pulled them all around. a desperate order. shoot your horse. boom! a bullet in your horse's head. 39 dead horses found around the monument. you're not going home now. you just shot your transportation and you are hiding behind horse flesh. there's nowhere to run to. and, by god, there's nowhere to hide. warriors get closer and closer. they ask gall ten years after the battle, how long did the fight last? he said about as long as it takes for a hungry man to eat his dinner. nd then the shots. boom! quit coming.

boys and old men watching in the draws and the ravines. mounted their horses, stormed up the hill, rode ride into the crowd of survivors and pounded them to death. then they raced down to meet reno and benteen who had made a feeble effort to advance to the sound of the gunfire, drove them back, pinned them down, trapped them under siege for the next 24 hours. benteen will step up for a shellshocked reno. it's a groundhog case, men. it's do or die. dig rifle pits now, and they began to scratch and claw at the ground with cups and spoons and pocketknives in their hands. those rifle pits are still there there. 24 hours later, the massive village begins to break up and scatter to the south as they

detect the oncoming advancing column of gibbon and terry from the north. and by the time the sun goes down, june 26, 1876, only a handful of warriors in sight. benteen with courage and 24,000 rounds of ammunition has saved 350 on that hill to the south. 263 are dead. between 60 and 100 warriors have been killed in this battle, maybe more. we'll never know. in the battle of the little big orn is over. today it's quiet. it's peaceful. the battle is over. the war is over. the indian memorial on top of the hill has done much to hill the bitterness and anger and

hostility that existed for years here. today it's quiet. there's a spirituality. it's hallowed ground. i live on the battlefield, just beyond the cemetery as a ranger in ranger housing. sometimes i'm the only person here when the sun goes down. sometimes i'll take a walk late at night. about a month ago, the moon was bigger than i'd ever seen it. i walked up to last stand hill. i could read the names on the monument. it's a spiritual place. i felt it. i feel it every day. and i hope in some small way, ladies and gentlemen, by attending our presentation here this morning you have been introduced to the battle of little big horn, but more importantly, you connected with the spirit that exists here. you've been an excellent audience.

i'll stick around for questions or comments. thank you very much. thank you. thank you very much. after the battle of little big horn, the campaign goes on. t's called the great sioux war and lasted about 18 months from 1876 to 1877. most of the tribes dispersed from the village down below. there were still -- back at the reservation. but the ones in this village will disperse over the coming weeks and months and the army will pursue later in the fall and nothing much will happen. the largest battle after this is the battle in south dakota. crazy horse surrenders. sitting bull goes into canada. a lot of indians just go back to the reservation. one thing you have to understand is in 1887, all the reservations are established

and they are being lived on. however, the indians could leave the reservations and hunt buffalo in what's called the unseeded territory. it's often forgotten but it's the most important part of the story because that's where buffalo are. on the reservation, most buffaloes are gone and they are being given annuities. all the resistance kind of fizzles out. they do remain on the reservation, more or less, and they are enslaved to this reservation way of life of eating flour, drinking coffee, eating bacon and all the other things that come with it. being sedentary. no more raids on enemy tribes. handing your guns in. handing your horses in. and this reservation way of life that is a horrible way of life because they are so used to being so free. so the result of this battle is exactly that. custer lost, but the indians won, but overall, they lost the war.

and there's a saying, two great nations met on a plain. one lost the battle. the other lost everything. and that's sort of a way of saying it. one of the challenges we face for years and years was the anger from the united states public. they would come here and see only a memorial to the soldiers because this was a memorial to the soldiers early on after the battle. that's what it was all about. but this battlefield, this national monument, that last stand hill, sort of a live monument because it became a soapbox for native americans to come here and protest in the 1960's and 1970's their treatment on reservations and their way of life had disappeared and they had nowhere to go, they felt. and so the indian memorial was finally built in 2003 as a result of the protests that came here with aim. and now since the indian

memorial is finally built and it's being engraved right now as we speak on the granite, engraved, the names of the warriors who fought and died here, the anger of the public, the general public, is gone. as soon as they see the indian memorial and those red markers out there, the anger is gone. the people, places, and events, on c-span's city tour, where we travel across the country and highlight the life and history of each place we visit. you can see more at our website, c-span.org. clickthe city's tap and on c-span cities toward. >> american history tour continues here on c-span. a look near santa fe, new mexico you're the head of the tribal

government. one of 19 in new mexico. >> new mexico, there is eight pueblos north of santa fe. san juan, and today we are in pojoaque. ♪ ♪

>> the pueblo is a tribal nation that exists here in new mexico. they are very distinct because we live on our aboriginal property and we have maintained us being at the low part in the valley there's a lot of natural springs and the rivers run right through here. guage blo is called poso

because of the quality of the water. it's 450 tribal members and we have plalksly 13,000 acres. the pueblo people is known for its traditional architecture. we've carried that into our most major development that looks like it's built with adobee and so we've carried our identity and our culture into contemporary times. that's part of what makes us unique and what makes this area unique is that the traditions are being carried into the future. today is an important day for us because we celebrate the new year but we also celebrate our

sovereignty. president lincoln back in 1862 gave the pueblos a cane recognizing their sovereignty. that was real important for us that the current foreign government, which is the united states, has recognized the tribal sovereignty. and so it makes for good relations in not only retaining our cultural eye dentedty which is unique in the country but it's also just important for moving forward and -- because we live native people with nonnative people live throughout this area. we also have a cane from new mexico, the governor of new mexico in 1974 gave the pueblos a cane. we also have a cane from spain in the 1600s the king of spabe gave the pueblos a cane and gave recently spain also gave

the pueblo another cane, too, further recognize the sovereignty. and so these canes are held by the governor, the leader of the pueblo, in his house and they're also referred to as the canes of authority. each governor that the tribal lacks is responsible for holding on to the cane and passing it on to the next governor. ♪ today we had the eagle dance. and the eagle dance is important to many tribes across the country. we celebrate it with a unique pueblo eagle dance that the eagle is an important part of ceremony. the eagle is looked at as power and the feathers are in almost every ceremonial outfit that we have. so it's part of the ceremonial day we have the dances first and then all the tribal members

come to bless the cane and bless me and bless themselves. all the people that were holding the cains were tribal officials. i was the governor and next to me is the lieutenant governor and tribal secretary and tribal treasurer. those are the four elected officials. all the tribal officials are elected by the general population. male and females over 18 years of age are eligible to vote. it's very hand to hand campaigning, i guess, because we're such a small population. so we get ahold of each other and visit each other either at work or at home or on the phone and talk to each other about what's going on in the pueblo and what the goals are for the future. the relations with the state and the federal government are essential to the pueblo. all of the laws that implement -- that are implemented on the state level and the federal level, it's important for us to

keep up on that as well as all the collaboration that we're going to do together to benefit the people in whatever ways that it is, whether if it's through social programs or through economic development, or just enforcement of general laws it's important that we're all in communication with each other. poverty in the area has had a big impact on communities in northern new mexico. saturday of that you have different addictions to drugs and substance abuse, and so the only way to really get communities out of that is to have some kind of opportunities r them to move into and look forward to, and so what we've done is we've tried to say the most important things for us is the education and employment.

so that's where we're really focused on that. and we've seen just a huge turn around in a few short years, and just offering people a better life. it's still an ongoing challenge, but it's something that works. we've seen a huge turn around. we've gone to almost 100% graduation rate with our tribal members coming out of high school, and we spend about $1 million a year on our scholarships going from kindergarten through phd level. we do try to encourage all of our tribal members to be traditional and also to be caught up with contemporary times and with their education and doing well for themselves. so it's important for them as a unique people to practice their traditional songs, pratiss

their traditional ceremonies, but then also to advass themselves in life in some of the contemporary ways that they will need to survive. so most of our youth are very excited about who they are as pueblo people but they are also out there getting a great education. i think the santa fe and the pueblo area is one of the most beautiful places in the world. the landscape just is speaking to you every day and the clouds. and when you look at native art and native symbolism you see the landscape and the clouds always communicating messages in the art and so when people come from other places that's what they see when they come here they see the land scape and then they see the people and then they see the integration of the culture and everything into how people

portray this area. and starting with the architecture and the native people all the way to contemporary times. >> c-span visited fort mims to hear from an author about the 1813 fort mims massacre. the red sticks went on to massacre settlers in the area. >> we are at fort mims park. it is a little park in alabama and this is the location of a major battle between americans and indians in 1813. the fort was full of all kinds of folks taking shelter from an impending attack here at

including indians that were allied with the americans, local settlers, militias from the mississippi territory and a lot of slaves. about 500 people inside of this fort. and on august 30, a faction of the was upset and attacked the -- ford there was a long battle in the end almost 300 people inside the fort were killed. i first learned about it when i read about the massacre but there is more to the story. like most american indians had to find the way to deal with the expanding american in settlements. in this area, the creeks were successful as the cherokee to assimilate to american life style. quite a few wealthy indians owned slaves with a big

plantation and raise domestic livestock and largely gave their way of life to the american norms of agriculture. the large part of the nation did not see the advantage they wanted to maintain their traditional life. there was a rift in 1813, a civil war broke out and what happened here is a continuation of the civil war, but it brought the americans into the of war against the anti-american

there was a political angle as well. tecumseh were proselytizinr y of life and he came here and converted a lot of creeks to their religion. so there was a political angle as well. most of those leaders were in the pay of the american government. so they were profiting, while others were suffering. by the early 1800s, there is a a couple prominent people were in this area. lot of reasons why individuals chose one side or the other. in this area, most of the local creeks were pro-american and decided to stay on that side of the civil war. william rutherford was from this area. he was the leader of the red sticks attack. the folks inside fort mims had

been boarded up for about a month. there was a skirmish in july around fort mims. apparently the red stick attack was in response to that skirmish. they had been in their own territory and they were attacked by americans. they felt they were wronged by that and decided to take revenge in this area. so in the morning, the folks inside the fort had to go out and find food. there were 500 people inside the fort, so very cramped conditions and they had to forage every day for food. people dispersed and began to harvest crops from nearby fields. that went on throughout the morning. there were some sightings in the area by african slaves and they reported this, but were not believed for some reason. one was being whipped for having spread false rumors. the attack was a surprise. the garrison was not a form terry -- formal military unit. and so very badly lead.

the fort was badly dealt. the gun loopholes, which should have been five feet above the ground, were at three-foot levels. they were level with the attacking force, who took possession of the loopholes. the battle went on for a long time. there were maybe 700 red sticks in the attacking force and several hundred fighting inside among the many civilians inside the fort. sometime around the afternoon, the battle had stalemated. the red sticks withdrew. they set fire to a good portion of the southern part of the fort.

the fire spread and at that point, defense was impossible. the few remaining defenders tried to escape. about 25 made it out of the fort. the battle need all of the papers in the country. it was considered a huge disaster of american military might and it took a while for the local armies to reconstitute themselves. the volunteers were devastated by this. eventually they organized an army to invade the creek nation. the georgians organized a couple of different attacks from the east and then the tennessee troops, under several generals, andrew jackson most famously, invaded from the north. this was one of the major outcomes of the battle, this introduction of andrew jackson. his success throughout the creek war, they made him famous throughout the country and convinced of the leadership in washington he could actually fight and win.

so he was given command of the army in new orleans and defeated the british there in 1815. andrew jackson is a controversial figure for many reasons. he did all sorts of new sorts of policies in all aspects of government. one outcome of his experiences during the creek war was his determination to see indian removal finally occur in the eastern united states. a lot of people like george washington had tried to formulate a policy of assimilation where indians could become americans, in their sense of the word, and stay where they were located.

the american indians had populations in the tens of thousands. the american government was under pressure by settlers to take the land one way or another. so jackson was excited when he heard the news of fort mims and saw this as an opportunity to take land from the creek's and negotiated the treaty of fort jackson. that took 21,000,000 acres from the creek nation. 20 years later when he became president, he was able to push through the removal act of 1830 that led to forced removal of indians from the east and the north, the ohio country. the attack itself launched the invasion of the creek nation and the confiscation of all this land, which after the war was opened up for settlement. alabama and southern georgia would not have been settled if not for this war. there was a thing called alabama

fever, this land rush in the years following the war. that was the most immediate impact. and of course the removal act, this is sense of betrayal the americans felt at this sneak attack. the way they viewed it, there was a massacre. they felt betrayed because in previous years, people had tried their best to assimilate creeks and this was a clear response they did not want to become americans. that gave a lot of force for the removal proponents to move indians out of this area. the conquering spirit was used by the federal agent to the southern indians. when he first got wind of the red sticks movement, which was largely religious and also militaristic, he said the red sticks were possessed of a conquering spirit by the master

by the master of breath. i thought that was appropriate from that perspective. ,hen the americans attacked their response was to respond in kind. i was part of a team of archaeologists who was contracted by the alabama historical commission to look at the archaeology that had gone on here for the last 50 years. we had thousands of artifacts and no reports to speak of. inspent about a year 2003-2004 analyzing the collection and i began to read up on the history.

there were a lot of old historical ideas that needed to examined.d current -- i archaeology really led me to the history. life have lots of different perspectives. the correct perspective has been underrepresented in history and general.rspective in incarnate, asble a corporate trade by the american press. incarnate, as they were portrayed by the american press. i view it as similar to many other stories. fiction writers will take some

, some kind of contained entity and interact and show their true selves. i thought that what was really happening at fort mims. all the different kinds of human stories that go on within that for were most fascinating to me and really trying to delve into the genealogy of these individuals shows that they were quite closely related. the people were fighting on opposite sides. they knew each other. it was a very personal war played out here on a small scale. like the american civil war crunched down into a little tiny event in many ways. you see all these kinds of

stories as you would see in a bigger picture. >> today's look at the people, places, and events a native american history as part of c-span's city tour. more from the cities to her at her website, c-span.org. -- cities tour at our website, c-span.org. >> c-span's american history to her takes you to pictograph cave, state park. they were left to hide bite native americans who lived in the area 9000 years ago. >> this is located five miles south of billings montana. this is the home of some of the first people ever in the northern plains. the people that lived here really were dependent completely

on the natural environment, the place around them. they traveled small distances just following the game. this place offered them shelter, food, water, medicine, and a sense of security. this is pictograph cave itself. it is important in a place like this to let your eyes adjust to this because you're looking at charcoal drawings that are over 1000 years old from 20 feet back. if you sit here and watch, eventually some of these images will kind of emerge.

at one point, the ceiling was painted. there were boulders in front of the cave that were painted. this place really was like the sistine chapel. there was images all over it. the first thing that most people see when they come here are the red pigments because they tend to be the more recent. and they are more vibrant. if you look up here, this first thing we're looking at is what we call a biographic scene which means it tells a story. if you miss a part of the image you will miss a piece of the story. in this instance we have seven flintlock rifles all being fired. then there is a number of dash marks below and this is the same pigment, the same diameter. part of the same image.

this is a beaver, a dead beaver. it is -- you can see it's pigtail and there is two webbed feet and a dot on it because it has been killed. there is a lightning bolt coming out of its mouth. that is it so leaving its body. its energy. this is a group of for trappers that were ambushed right near here and this was in 1823. seven of them were killed in that ambush. 23 of them got away. seven of these for trappers were killed and they took all their pelts. we do not know for sure if that is what this illustrates but it is interesting to note that when they built main street in billingsley blow up this big rock and this rock was called indian rock because it had some of the same petroglyphs or

carvings of the images that you see here. when they blow up this rock emma behind it, they found seven skulls which may be the seven people that were killed in that ambush in 1823. that image fell and is now in the visitor center. it was painted up there approximately 2145 years before, you have a 2000-year-old hurtle. you have a millennium of time. consider the value of digit -- pictograph cave state park.

the name is for the pictograph and that is a significant part of the occupation story but for archaeologists and anthropologists there is more cultural value in the artifacts that were excavated. excavation started in 1937 but people we here well before that digging in the cave. this road here was called the reservation road for a lot of years because it was the most direct route to prior. during the stagecoach times people would stay here, they would water their horses and go up and look at the pictographs and smoke them would dig for artifacts. -- some of them would dig for artifacts. that continued when that became a wpa excavation and that when up until 1941. excavation that happened was a

group of local people from billings, they saw the value in the number of artifacts that seemed to be there in the deposition that was present. and thought that this would be an excellent research tragic rather than just having people go out there from town and dig around in take things. that there was some historical value. through the efforts of some local people, the property was obtained by the state. it became the first archaeological project in montana and one of the first in a pretty major region. there is 30,000 artifacts that were recovered here. baskets from the southwest. and caribou horns that were carved into harpoon points and those came from the northwest area there was a paint applicator. everything from game pieces to turtle effigies and there is even a soapstone, piece of soapstone carved in the shape of

a human head. he on what we would call occupational debris or things you would need behind when you stayed someplace for an extended time, there were these valuable, unique one-of-a-kind artifacts that were here, too. over the last few years, the collection has been curated. it has been sorted and has been reviewed and taking care of. there has been a resurgence in looking at the documents that we have from pictograph cave. the original supervisor of the project and to me this became personally interesting was a drafter for the highway department who went to work there. being a drafter and myself aiding and drafting and design, i took some particular interest in his civil drawings.

his plan and profile drawings that he did because that is the key to the collection. that is the key to the excavation. how far down were they, where is the strata, what were they fighting? with the plan and the profile of individual drives would begin a project where we scanned all of those documents, bring them in to a cad environment and see if we could reengage or reconstruct a digital reconstruction of the cave so that we could re-create where they were working. to some extent, see if we could take these artifacts and place them back in context in three-dimensional space. so we can see what the surface of the cave look like. the cave floor before they started the excavation. we can see the contour lines

that we traced over the top and then using the software we can turn that into a surface and so this is the east end of the cave and the west is near us here. it shows the contour of the cave before any excavation took place. using his documents we can trace those contours and we can get a feel for how much material was removed from this site when they did it. we can see these excavation depth. this began -- gives us a three-dimensional environment that we can reference within. what we can do since we have this reconstructed, we can take the labels from the artifact where they said they found them, whether they were to the east or west and we can take those coordinates and place them into

this three-dimensional space. basically we can take the artifacts that we have and we can put them back into their original context and try to reconstruct how this cave was put together. one of the applications is that the data we have we can take further. maybe re-create the panel on the back of the cave so that people cannot make the hike we can re-create it to some scale at the visitor center. we can do this digitally. so that the work that the archaeologists are doing referencing artifacts back into this, at some point in time, we envision a digital model so that people can err act with the cave from a distance, perhaps even at

a research level. if a researcher wants to know what particular point was they could figure set. or the tourist wanted to go, they can manipulate the model to see what to expect when they get there. anyone can get more information about the story of what happened here. not only from the archaeological sense but the historical sense of the people who did this excavation and what they did and the late 1930's. the people of billings in montana see the value in a site like this where you have 2000 year-old images where you had 30,000 artifacts. and very unique items that were left here by people. even today, where less than five miles from the reservation. a large amount of the community

in billings or native people. we bring a lot of school groups here and a large amount of educational programs that we offer to teachers to tell the story so that montanans can get a sense of what what people were like thousands of years ago before there was a montana.reco. >> c-span's american history to her continues. the colusat to heritage trail. about the colusa indians who lived along southwest florida's coast for 1500 years. >> we're here at the site of tampa. we are standing 150 miles south of modern day tampa. there is a well known map that shows the native place name.

this was one of the largest of the colusa towns. it was one large big community including one in a sterile day and the other at big mound key. the coastal -- colusa were controlling many other towns but there was a mapmaker in the early 1700s and the name tempe got shifted to where it is presently located. we are also here at highland on the shore of an estuary. it is placed wherever freshwater and saltwater mix. this is to the north of the peace river and the myakka river. the produce one of the most

productive habitats. it supports mangrove and seagrass systems. it was the system that the colusa and their land -- ancestors used to achieve great success. by understanding the natural history of the estuary and the natural history of the organisms about live their archaeologists have been able to understand the pass of the people who first settled here i want hundred a.d. and there is no written record from the xhosa until the 1500 tossed. as far as we have they had no written language. for that first 1500 years of life, in order to understand the people and know about their culture and preserve their

legacy, we excavate and what are known as maidens -- middens and the landscape features. archaeologists have had 75 excavations in over 30 years to understand this place and these people. a midden means debris of life. so essentially garbage. within the midden nouns are environmental change in the past as well as the artifacts and things were that tools left behind, these are eastern oysters, and these are crested oysters. crested oysters exist in higher salinity waters. we get those throughout the etuary but also when there are pro longed periods of drought and not as much freft water