and i say this. if you are unhappy with the police service you have, you have a government that hires and fires the chief of police. if you don't like the service they give, get another chief. when you are a local police chief, twice a month, you are up to be hired or fired. if you don't like it, change it. i firmly believe that. host: from brenda in tallahassee. see a sheriffer i , i stop and say thank you for your service. i appreciate you. everybody should do that. they are feeling so unappreciated right now. i hear a lot of black people saying the problem is there is not enough black cops. there are too many white cops and not enough like cops. not enough black cops.

why don't they put the black cops in the black areas and put the white cops in the white areas? try --well, we always your demographics should be representative of your community. that is a lofty goal. people through the hiring process is not as easy as we hope for. hirehought of trying to and recruiting in the demographics in your location is a goal that every agency should aspire to. we do believe that. thank you for the thank you part. deputy both young sheriffs and it's a difficult time for them. they go out there every day and

do their job. they made a choice to come to law-enforcement to make a difference. a thank you every now and then goes a long way. host: is there a disconnect on the racial lines between african-americans and police? guest: in some areas, yes. cast the bigto net, but in some areas, there are. the men and women of law enforcement come in a variety of different colors and shapes engenders. .- and genders the more we can be representative of archimedes, the better we will be. , the our communities better we will be. part of the challenge is with the negativity towards police, if you were a 21-year-old, whether you want to get into law enforcement -- will you want to get into law enforcement? the public has to help us.

help us bring this people in. i'm not sure if i was a 22-year-old college graduate be a police want to officer for $40,000 year with the negativity we get. host: independent line. caller: good morning. the first caller made an important point. we have a terrorism plan here in new york called see something say something. if i see something, i'm not calling the cops so they can come to the scene and jump out of cars with guns drawn and shoot the first round person they see. see.rst round person they when the judges says can anybody not serve in good conscience, i will stand up and put both hands in the air.

don't come here as tourists or bring your tourist dollars here. host: barbara, have you always recents opinion or is it events? she's gone, sorry about that. see something, say something, and don't come because we are a violent nation. also well, it is interesting, i have been in law enforcement 37 years and our changed dramatically over those 37 years which is one reason our association wanted to this commission going 20 years ago. not i started we were responsible for terrorism, now we are terrorism and hazmat and crime experts and mental health expertsment we are supposed to be experts in a lot thingsed a somewhere in there is law enforcement. unfortunately those messages get blurred. but see something, say something does work. issue.a perception

but quite frankly back to what we are talking about without the trust an calls we cannot -- and calls we cannot be effective. time for a difficult law enforcement because the challenges we face and we have just es don't meet the staff levels we have. tip city, ohio. democrat. aller: when it comes to prosecuting or investigating jury officers, the grand system doesn't work. i know prosecutors like it they can control it, but that is the problem. police officers that dealt with that guy, how many their belt?on was there an alternative to choking him? and as far as money for police

officers, take all that military , cashent they are getting in and put it in training programs. a couple will look at of those things. the grand jury system when you are in law enforcement you off the bat you don't make the laws, you just enforce them. a different want system those are legislative issues. we deal within the framework that is established for us. i don't know if they had tasers there. i can't answer that question. usewe certainly endorse the leth -- anyny unanimous non leth onlethal thing we use but sometimes bad things happen with them because of health conditions. astly, the military decision piece, in the meeting with president obama the other day we and 96% of cussion

the military equipment that goes to law enforcement has nothing with m-raps and bearcats. supplies em are radio and things that keep them running. but there are positives that ome out of the things we learn from the military and one of my roll out year is trauma kits. we save lives using trauma kits a military issue piece of equipment and we are saving victims, traffic crash victims. we tend to be leaders in trying and do good things for the community and sometimes unfortunately bad things happen. we will continue to do the jobs we are sworn to do. chief beary, do local police departments need those tanks or the automatic weapons that some police received?s have

guest: let's start with the weapons. very the things that i'm familiar with is the threat of active shooters. experience at the university of central florida we had a situation with a shooter campus. at florida state university a couple of weeks ago they had a situation. with the situation in america with gun violence unfortunately the law officers need those weapons to be able to address that threat. imagine what only a community would say if five to eight, 10 -- you pick the number of people died because the officers didn't have the weapons they needed to stop that situation. then we would be criticized with knowing the equipment you need and it is available how could not have that available. there is a fine line. heavy military equipment, i think that again goes back to local government. if the government entity, if the mayor and city commission think a need they should

probably have it. i watched the situation unfold first thing i he noticed is the armor ed vehicle to try to get the hostages out. there is a difference between an vehicle with a weapon and arm armored vehicle that doesn't have a weapon on it to get out same and insert the officers to stop the threat. act. a balancing but i throw it right back to local government. you get what you accept. if you want changes and really the majority of law enforcement the united states is done on a local level. voice.volved and have a host: you mentioned meeting with serve on the you 21st century policing task force up. president set haughton, hn from louisiana, republican line. in a parish which is

a county to most people and the a good point, n the involvement of what i call the ballot box. ferguson it was something like 7% of the blacks voted. vote for.at you i'm glad i live in a parish because unlike a police chief we vote on our sheriff and we have been very fortunate in last 30-some years we have sheriffs.three if they don't do a good job we vote them out. been watching the video of the incident with the black lucies.ing the he would like to see that from the very, very start. borro because i seriously doubt if all hose police officers showed up exactly at one time and started as i ebody called in understand and officers responded and it seems like here are three officers in there dressed differently than

all the rest. is like nds like it walking into the movie in the iddle and i would like to see the video from when the ndividuals on the street violating the law and the police officers didn't write the law, in the e legislature state of new york wrote that law. force, want a police whether municipal or sheriff's department deciding, well, going tot a law we are enforce. i want them to enforce the laws on the books. like the law on the book i will get involved with my it off the and get books. guest: i think that john is money.n the you get what you get. if you don't get involved in the process, then you are going to have to accept the style of law enforcement that is you. to so, i think those are very accurate. withther interesting thing video we deal with this.

limited air time media stations have they will show 15 that is f a situation 20 minutes. as a police chief you have to offset that and explain how those things happen. but it is a communication piece, too, and not being afraid to get on there and put it out there say here is the whole story. host: can you share an experience you had while serving where you had to pull your weapon and felt threatened, et cetera? actually numerous times. anything from armed robbers, burglars, there are high risk situations every ay that law enforcement responds to. the other thing worth noting when you think of the millions contacts that happen every law enforcement officers and citizens the use of low whether very

you consider the entire picture. i think that needs to be pointed out. those cases again that we've seen in the last several months draw the headlines. the vast majority of law nforcement and citizens contacts result in no use of force. host: i'm sure you have hard the phrase driving while black. harris called in from michigan going he would be stopped home from his job at 1:00 or :00 in the morning simply in his view because he was black. something rfplt police officers discuss? >> as agency heads yes, we do. states it and other is mandatory training we call legal traffic stops because we believe and i certainly believe that there based solely tops on any race, gender or other situations. so, one of the things we see sometimes is people assume they because you become

it, because i'm black, i'm young. no, you didn't ave your seat belt on, you are speeding. but racial profiling as far as i'm concerned and most law is ement executives unacceptable. that is plain and simple the way it has to be. host: richard beary is president he interal association of chiefs of police. danielle is on the line. make a commentto the swaeuituation -- i understd you were saying about the video that other gentleman the clothingard to of the officers. but even if this gentleman was those cigarettes, how to the y are not going

tores where they sell the cigarett cigarettes? guest: well, again, i was not there. i don't run the new york city department. unfortunately sometimes law enforcement -- we don't pick the want. we when we get told this is a problem and we need to address obligated to go out this and address it. aain i don't know if that was planned mission or how that went about. ometimes enforcing law is challenging because policy makers decide what our we rities need to be and have a duty and obligation to respond. a t: chief, this is maybe little out of your bailiwick but e read an editorial earlier this morning that the prosecutors and police are too cozy. it is too that the grand jury system maybe needs to be opened up. those have thoughts on issues? guest: well, about the coziness most prosecutors

i dealt with continued to stay at arm's length. a separate world. we send them the cases, they look at the cases and make charging decisions. of them are highly educated, all attorneys. nd what i have seen them to be is very conservative in looking at the facts and making sure hey have a good case before they go forward. that is a generalization. jury system has been around a long time that. will be a state legislature to change. the question is really do people feel like the system is being and that is the underlying question. that might be the law enforcement, we have a part of that and some of the prosecutors open and put it out there. i think that will help solve some problems. change the to legislature procedure that has to be done through the state legislature. host: tim is a police officer in

virginia., chantilly, you are on with richard beary. caller: good morning, chief. you referenced the young fficers not wanting to come on and become a police officer. i continued to disagree with that. the public s that has this perception of how it is because olice officer f the fact that chiefs on down don't hold police officers accountable. i agree that we as law officers do a great job, the majority of us. may be 1% or 2% that don't get held accountable for that is like the one rotten apple spoils the whole bunch. to ar as like it is amazing gets everything kind of

amped down when it comes to excessive use of force because a lot of officers are not properly held d and not being accountable. i will be watching the news and cop who shot a baby with a pacifier that he thought was a 1-year-old. that is just things on the news. t is not a black and white iss issue. but the bottom line is these officers some of them should be fired. that is in the blue uniform does not necessarily warrant being in the uniform they don't have the mentality, the maturity level or the professionalism it takes to a police officer. host: thank you, sir. agree.well, i absolutely in any occupation there are people that do great jobs and some that don't measure up. i agree with the accountability. i absolutely agree that those that don't do the job should be gone. that becomes as a law

nforcement executive very challenging with labor unions and court decisions out there. but if you don't measure up you gone and we should hold people accountable. is a member ofry the president's 21st century task force, the c task force is t philadelphia police officer and police officer charles ramsey. what is your primary goal with -- this task force to the to present president actionable recommendations as to how we can impact and change perception and reality of states.g in the united build stronger relationships, ake a deep dive into our training and policies that need

tpofpforth.ce, and so we have 90 days, which is not a lot of time, but i think we can up with some solid recommendations for the resident and it probably is going to require more work partwards because the easy is writing a recommendation and hard part is implementing something. i'm pretty confident we will be to have something on his desk within the time frame he would like to see it. in your several years in philadelphia what is a policy up ge that you have made there? >> use of deadly force. firing at , automobiles which a lot of banned for years. here in philadelphia we had not done that. put that in place. that is one that comes to mind immediately as it relates to use of force. we also made revisions in our training. something back in 1998

when i was chief in washington, d.c. d.c., working with the u.s. to help museum officers better understand their role in a democratic society. our recruit through that training in philadelphia. philanthropist here who has supported us in that endeavor. a lot towardt does helping police officers better unique role they have in our society. chief ramsey, richard beary of the international so, the iefs of police is on set with me. i asked him this question. video of what he happened to eric gardner or the tamir rice in cleveland, what is your reaction as a police officer? caller: well, first of all, when gardner video of the

situation it is obviously troubling. i don't know all the information presented to the grand jury. they obviously will access to did by watching a clip on television. ertainly it is troubling especially when you consider a in the ly minor offense first place. but the person was resisting. people have tong realize is taking people into custody that do not want to go is not a pretty sight if you see it on tape. know all the facts and circumstances. cleveland the situation the first thing i thought of is poor tactics up on they pulled right the person, the young man, which traininging that basic would tell you not to do because take ve no time to really cover, to react, to give commands, to do anything when on somebody.t up

that was just not a good situation in terms of the started it offat on a very bad footing. chief ramsey, when can we expect to hear an initial report force?e task >> well, 90 days is what the president gave us. to the ill present president within that time frame. then it is up to the white house when they will release anything or if they will release anything publicly. willure they will but that be their decision, not mine. host: you have been a police for a long time. have you changed your mind, have changed your view on policing over the years? caller: sure. started in 1968 with my career. subpoenince 1968. his whole notion of community policing. nobody talked about that in the 1960's or 1970's. it ce thought they could do

all. have a crime problem hire a few more cops. community was viewed as eyes and ears. the three digits 911 when i started. changed a great deal. and both in terms of the personally, nd me coming to have a better understanding, a deeper it means ing of what to be a police officer and that ur responsibility includes protecting the constitutional rights of people. in n't say i thought that 19 1968, but i certainly do now and have for some time. we all evolve, change and grow. host: charles ramsey, chief of police in philadelphia and 21st century e policing task force. respond to want to that you heard? guest: if there is anything that law a lot about enforcement it is chuck ramsey.

we are happy to have him as because of his -- c because of his experience. if not for law enforcement d.n.a. would not have come about. law enforcement was the driving force to get it accepted in court. so law enforcement is constantly new and innovative ideas. we need credit now and then for we do to make the system better. host: we will take more calls. edith in warren, arkansas, democrat line. caller: good morning, mr. beary. good morning. aller: i'm a grandmother of about 20 grandsons and they were all raised in pass don't know into, california. pasadena, california. and me as a mother and grandmother we have always in the community. communi d say to any

community, get involved. officers r police there. i'm back in arkansas now. see a lot of things i don't like. i saw a lot of things in pasadena. we had a good police department. chief there who was raised with my children. go to city council meetings. get to know to your police officers, get to know your chief of police and community.r i was a team football and many, many ther for years. my son is 58 years old. i'm back in mayberry because i was born and raised in here.sas and i love it and they have like a macho attitu attitude. didn't like what i saw lap to the young man because you saw video and all of these

people are getting paid by our and in order to see what your dollars are doing involved. get involved with your chief of police and got involved with the community police. you are going to have some bad apples. y sister's son was killed in the 1990's by a choke hold and family very bad. but all in all we need the and i think they need better training. warren.hey do here in i see that. o, get involved with your schools, know your community, listening to for me. you are doing a good job. up.keep the good work encourage all of our communities to get involved,

citizens, we are the taxpayers, we vote. i didn't agree with the man in then the because -- lady that came on and said put hite polices in certain communities and black polices -- no, we need diversity. edith. beary. guest: congratulations on 20 grandchildren. i couldn't imagine the with that.ity god bless you for that. your comments are right on the involved with g your community. you need to be involved in the community and need to be nvolved with your local government and with law enforcement. one of the other factors that a don't realize is some of the best advocates for a ost of issues, whether mental health, drug situations, are police departments. police departments spend a great deal of time and money bringing cates and

resources together to make communities better. exceptionally well when the citizens support that nd become part of it and get involved. the more involved the better and better vices delivery of service when you are part of the solution. chris is in brooklyn. hi, chris. caller: hi, thank you. first i would like to say thank you for nypd for making my safe in my city. i saw the whole video. was a street hustler. e was selling cigarettes to underaged kids, avoiding the tax. cuomo sent out a special task force. hat is how the encounter started. there is one way that it could that is ifvoided and the 46-year-old man stopped his treet hustle and when the

paoeeople police said you are under arrest for the 32nd time arrest.under the main continuing everyone has it remember no one wants eric block. on the if you walk out your door and he s out there and has his crew looking at your car, all of a sudden your place is robbed you whistling at women, there are fights that go on and street dner and his hustling friends are at the center of it. nypd.you, i'm sorry the guy died but he he asthma, he knew it and should have just given up and said i will go to jail. i said to the police and encourage everyone to watch the video, he said this stops here today. the police to a fight. he is 46 years old. arrested 31 times. a convicted felon. game and he took a street stand with the police and black female surgent there

who said take him down. down.s why they took him he was a street hustler, i do not have any sympathy. host: chief beary. guest: well, i think that chris the factuallaid out basis as he knows it. about ain as i talked before, law enforcement doesn't get a choice in a lot of matters. when we were told there is an issue and we want you to address it that is what we do. selling ofust on the untaxed cigarettes. years ago when the death rate on our highways was through the trafighway ional hoeu traffic said you need to help us fatality and injury rate down and law enforcement responded. the serious crime and violent crime starts happening the citizens come to the elected officials say we want you to go out there rate.op the crime

law enforcement does a great job responding. unfortunately sometimes bad lhappen when we respond. but these are -- i think that advice there was good. if an officer tells you you are argue rrest the place to and fight about it is not on the street, it is the courtroom. ooperate and then fight it out in the courtroom and you will have no, generally speaking, it the negative contacts. we have this tweet i wish beer eer -r --beer -eer -r - -- that is a state bistate question. t is a lawful command should abide by it. the keyward being a lawful command. most state statutes elaborate. ost: i think that you kind of said this.

do you support body cameras on all policemen? guest: i absolutely do. host: what about the rank and file? view on this? guest: body cameras are great. there are some challenges that nobody wants to talk about and those are the privacy issues. to my house and i want to talk to you about my do my neighbor, something, you really want that information being released? are is also victims that being recorded. so there is a host of issues through.e to be worked the other piece of that is who will pay for that? florida is a public records state, very open public records. has to handle the requests, go in and try to -- go in and redact information that is private. it's not a simple solution. will it help with transparency?

it will. we need to be careful of unintended consequences. sometimes, we jump in on technology really fast, and then we are and what the unintended consequences are. i think they are good. it is not going to change law enforcement overnight. it's not going to happen. host: independent line. you are on with richard beary. caller: good morning. in the aggregate statistic that came from a guest on your program several years ago, he said that every bureau, every department, and every agents has a pervasive -- every agency has a pervasive and stomach -- systemic superiority complex, and i'm not just talking about the dmv, which we can all relate to. it is beyond a doubt that these people were saying -- those lame, stupid taxpayers couldn't do this task if their

life depended on it, so i'm the only one that can get out there and do this. that their attitude. host: who is they? caller: it is basically every bureau in every department in every agency. host: that was a guest on this program who said that? do you remember who it was? caller: i remember you want to host, unfortunately -- you were not the host, on urgently, -- unfortunately, mr. slen. i am hearing the same ego today. host: may be good try in what was said with regard to the -- maybe you could tie in what was said with regard to the macho factor? line of work, you have some people who do a great job and you have some people who need some help. we tend to be shaped by what we see on tv and in the movies.

sometimes, what i've seen, through the 37 years i've been doing this, sometimes, our new recruits think that is the way they are supposed to act, and we have to get that ego check at the door and teach them that, no , you are still a servant -- public servant. 90% of what law enforcement does is service. about 10% is actually enforcement. w and as we train them better, then we see a better product and we see people that that ego tends to get checked at the door. unfortunately, tv and media does have an effect on our employees. host: just a few minutes left with our guest. mike in georgia. caller: good morning. how are you doing, chief? guest: good morning. soldier in the military till we got injured. we had rules of engagement. when i was in iraq, i was over

there with enemy combatants and all this stuff. still, i couldn't take a gun and just shoot one of them and then use as an excuse, i was scared, he might look like he had something. we had to cmj -- had ucmj. we didn't go under the constitution, even though we fought to protect the constitution. i know to the white guy in new york, it is ok to kill somebody because they happen to disagree with being arrested. but what are the rules of engagement for police officers, or are they just allowed to go out and kill our citizens and all we can do is sit back and listen to the police tell us, hey, look, it's a hard job, we have bad apples? no, you have bad apples with guns, guns that kill people. host: mike, we will get a response. guest: thanks for your service. thanks for going overseas. those are very difficult

deployments -- deployments. when it comes to the rules of engagement, there are supreme court decisions that shape that, but, more importantly, state that shoots that guide us -- state statutes that guide us on that. a law enforcement officer who violates the law should be held accountable. i'm not going to argue that point with you, that they shouldn't be held accountable. one of the other interesting things that people don't take is thatount, though, every police officer-citizen encounter, there is a gun. it may not be the bad guys, but there is a gun there. and what we see in many cases across the country, people try to disarm the officer. there's always concern on behalf of the officer that there is a gun in every confrontation. again, it is training, teaching people the tactics, teaching -escalate thee

situation, and i think that gives us a better law enforcement officer at the end of the day. those who violate the law should be held accountable. host: the last call for chief beary comes from gregory in montgomery, alabama. caller: good morning, sir. three very quick points. i'm a military person as well. everyone in the military knows you serve in the military as an extraordinary privilege. i think a lot of police officers need to remember and be reminded that their fellow citizens -- they're fellow citizens with an extraordinary amount of power they wield. i'm an african-american male. it's difficult for me to hear people totally dismiss an experience and say it is not racist. we should be mindful of that. third and last, there is something on the mentally wrong when you have a law-abiding citizen who is fearful of any -- hing fundamentally wrong

when you have a law-abiding citizen who is fearful of any police even when they haven't done something wrong. anybody in our great democracy should be very careful about unchecked power. i just want that -- everyone to know that as we had this conversation. thank you again for your time. guest: again, thank you for your military service. again, it's a huge commitment. the -- i agree. people should not be afraid of the police. and we got to work to regain that trust. it's not going to happen overnight. and i think that we are making the right steps. i think we are seeing the engagement of law enforcement executives across the country. i think that president obama and his initiatives are going to go there. one point of correction, i'm not a member of the task force. i was there at the white house when they created the task force. we don't know who all the members are going to be yet. that's just a correction. we have to get back to that time

where we are not afraid of law enforcement. i also have to tell you, as a parent, when my kids were growing up, i told them about witho handle encounters law enforcement. the law enforcement officer doesn't know who you are, what your background is. some people say we shouldn't have to have that conversation. i think, as a responsible parent, we have to. with people in general, how you deal with people -- our young people tend to do everything electronically. we need to teach them some interaction skills. i do appreciate the comments and, hopefully, we will get that feeling back, where there is trust and we can all move forward in a positive direction. host: i apologize. i put you on that committee. my mistake. >> a discussion about the

effectiveness of the u.s. prison system. this is 50 minutes. maya. on your screen is she is the author of this new book. or of this new book, "locked down, locked out -- why prison doesn't work and how we can do better." --s schenwar, who is she is my sister, who has been incarcerated on and off for the past nine years. host: why? guest: there have been a number of reasons. the overriding element is that she is a drug addict. she has been addicted to heroin and has committed a variety of very small crimes as a result. host: was not tough to write about in your book? -- was that tough to write about in your book? guest: it was horrifying. at the beginning, i thought

there must be a way to write the book without my personal story. i woke up in the middle of the night and thought, i have to write, and everything coming out was personal. that goes beyond my sister, actually. i had a number of penpals in prison over the years. my correspondence with them has become friendship. you guys about, their stories come through in the book as well -- because of that, their stories come through in the book as well. host: what has her experience in prison been like? what has visiting her been like? guest: her experience -- the defining factors have been isolation and separation. it has created a life for her where her main skill set is existing within prison. i think that is the case, especially for a lot of young offenders who go in and become

accustomed to juvenile detention , and that's the life they graduate to, and that has been the course for her. in terms of my family, we've also become accustomed to this life of visiting, constantly waiting for a phone call, going into prison, often being treated kind of like prisoners ourselves. every communication we've had with her during the time she has been incarcerated has been monitored and surveilled. that's the way your relationship lives over the years when you have a family member incarcerated. host: talk about -- you talk about, as a family member, you entreated as a prisoner at times, too. what do you mean? it is very strange. for most people, it is something you've only seen on tv. you've absorbed these pop-culture experiences.

going into the prison, there is a very strong sense of anxiety as soon as you walk in the door, knowing that the people inside cannot get out, that human beings are being caged. that sounds dramatic, but that is just straightforward. as a family member, you feel that identification with the person that you love behind bars. beyond that, there are invasive searches. often, you are held in waiting rooms without a bathroom, without access to food. there are all these procedures that you go through throughout that time of visiting that are similar to people behind bars, including the way that you are able to interact with them. sometimes, you can't even give them a hug. often, you are behind a glass window and can't reach out and touch them. host: in your book, "locked isn, locked out," "prison

tearing society apart." guest: the way that i mean that is not really metaphorical. i try in the book to come back to what are the basics that make us human and make us whole and make us able to live together. a lot of what i'm touching on is the family and the way that prison tears families apart and how that extends to the rest of society. and in some cases, this is very concrete. most of the people being taken out of their families are men --n they are not the prime primary wage earner in their families. there are vast implications for the family. another concrete effect is on children. many of the children are taken out of the context of their family when a family member is incarcerated. they go into that -- into foster

care or kinship care with a family member they don't know well. and foster care is actually a major pipeline to prison in and of itself. most of the people in prison have been in the custody of child protective services. it is just perpetuating the cycle. host: we are going to put the numbers up on the screen, divided by political affiliation. you will see those numbers. they are new numbers. i have not quite memorized them. the fourth line this morning is set aside for those of you who have had experience with our prison systems. you have been a prisoner, you have a family member in prison. you have been a guard in prison.

you are an active member of a prison team. go ahead and eileen. we want to hear your stories -- go ahead and dial ini. we want to hear -- go ahead and dial in. we want to hear from you. this is from the sentencing project. you read the stats -- one point 5 million people are currently incarcerated in the million people are currently incarcerated in the u.s., or around that number. this was in 2012. 1 out of every 108 adults have been incarcerated. 38% black. blacks make up 13% of the total population. you describe yourself as a prison abolitionist. what does that mean?

what would you like to see happen? guest: i think it means that everyone calling in is going to yell at me but also -- at me, but also, what it means, in many ways, this system is not working. it's not working for any of us. it is not protecting public safety, which is its stated goal. most people who go to prison are rearrested within three years. so, this is not a correctional system. this is not something where -- go in in and thene and then are less likely to do the things that put them in there. it's a system where people go in and then come out and have many fewer opportunities to do the things that will help them move forward and change their lives, in terms of jobs, in terms of housing, especially for people of color. i think also the fact that prison is traumatizing and teaches a criminal skill set, in ofy ways, fosters this kind

atmosphere within the prison and out thatntality coming it is impossible to -- also, this is the main thing that i talk about in the book. prison breaks down human bonds. and those human bonds are the main motivators for people to change their lives. host: maya schenwar, is kayla still in prison today? guest: no. fortunately, she is out. for now, we have a happy ending. this last time she was incarcerated, actually, she had a baby behind bars. now she is out, able to be with her daughter. that is a positive thing for everyone. in herid kayla,

different times in prison, did she ever deserve to be in prison, in your view? guest: i think that the word me isn't quite useful. it's more a question of whether prison was held for her -- was helpful for her. did prison make it less likely she was going to steal perfume from the drugstore? the answer is no. she went to prison and she learned more skills for committing crimes, where to get drugs. she came out, immediately started using those drugs again. her stuck in the cycle where she thought the only thing she could do was be in prison, that that was what she could be successful at. in terms of its effect on public safety, its effect on her life and our family, it definitely was a net negative. host: how many prisons --

what should prison be used for, if at all, in your view? guest: in my view, eventually society is going to move toward an alternative that prevents violence and that fosters healing for victims. i think that, in the current situation, the best thing that we can actually think about is how can we prevent violence without using prison to the extent we are using it. to me, the most hopeful developments are happening in states with really large reductions in crime, like new york and california, over the past 10 years. seen amazing drugs and crime using less prison. their prison rates have gone down substantially. new york has reduced incarceration by 26% over the

past 10 years and their crime rates dropped more than the rest of the country. in california, we saw something similar. figuring out ways to diverse people from prison or figure out how we can reinvest the funding that goes into prison into things like early childhood education, housing, things that actually first all people doing some of the things that send them to prison -- actually forestall people doing some of the things that send them to prison. host: what was the reason for the success in new york and california? guest: it is complicated. in new york, a lot of it was a shift in the judicial culture and policies that moved towards making decisions to not send people to prison, particularly youth. so, they were sent into a tall -- into alternative programs, particularly treatment. i think -- i even have some issues with some of the

treatment strategies that are used. a lot of them look like prison. they are locking people up. i think it is almost -- sometimes i look at my perspective and i see it as almost conservative. they are spending so much money continuing to lock people up, except giving them a little bit more treatment. but some of the strategies being used have been very effective in facilitating people turning their lives around, helping them recover, really move toward a path where they are not committing future crime. ever gotten help for her drug program, and is she sober today? guest: she is sober right now. and this is something people talk about a lot in recovery programs, but, for some reason, it doesn't get talked about when it comes to sentencing or prison. people recover when they want to recover, when they are motivated to recover.

people have to choose treatment. and when you put a person in a situation where they feel useless or worthless or feel like they're punished and that's their fate, then they are less likely to choose treatment. what really fostered her recovery was feeling like she had something to live for. in her case, that was her baby. she is on her way out. host: maya schenwar is our guest. let me punch that number so we can hear from jessica in indiana. you are on the "washington journal." caller: thank you for having me. maya, i want to thank you for writing the book. i want to address what you said earlier in the program about when you have family members that are incarcerated and entering those systems. for someone who has never experienced it, even in a low

security facility, it is very the peoplel with that actually work in the prison system. it's hard enough to go visit someone that is incarcerated and see them in that position. my expense has been, in the indiana department of corrections, that you are -- my experience has been, in the indiana department of corrections, you are harassed and treated unfairly upon entering the building. i agree that those procedures need to be changed. in my experience, i've been there and at the -- and done nothing wrong and felt like i was a prisoner myself. even being one minute late on a cutoff, to drive from two hours away to see my brother, i was treated very poorly upon entering because i was a minute late. then you have to go through a total search process. in my experience, i felt it was very harassing when you got that they'veining

got more visitors coming through. it just seems like it is a perpetual cycle. thank you for writing the book. thank you for your time. host: jessica, we will get that response from maya. what do you think of the idea of abolishing prisons? caller: i don't know if i totally agree with abolishing prison. i agree with prison reform, definitely. guard --y the especially in regards to drug addiction and alcohol addiction. i do not believe our prisons are serving us in that way at all. host: thank you. maya schenwar? guest: i think in regards to the visiting policies, that's a really good point. people drive or fly such long distances to see their family members, and that's a whole problem, in and of itself. that prison placement procedures are often --

you go here, you go here. in said a thinking about, how will this person's -- instead of thinking about, how will this person's family be able to visit, because those ties are crucial for how that person will do when they get out. whole set of considerations that goes into whether families are actually able to see their loved ones. i think it is the majority of children who have parents find are -- parents behind bars actually unable to visit them due to distance and due to financial implications of that distance. i want to say one things up -- one thing about prison abolition. it sounds very dramatic, because it seems like the idea is, we are going to crumble down the walls tomorrow and set everyone free, whatever that means. everyone's mind jumps to the serial killers.

i think that we have to think more about this word as a call to develop something new, a call to shrink the system, to move forward with reducing mandatory minimums, the closing prisons, the amount of money we are pouring into prison budgets on the one hand. on the other hand, thinking about developing alternatives that support victims, that help victims heal and help us get accountability for perpetrators that line up with what victims need from those perpetrators in order to hold them accountable and help them heal. host: marvin is in fort bragg, north carolina. go ahead with your question or comment. caller: i want to comment on the prison system. [indiscernible] i apologize. you are cutting out. i'm going to put you on hold. don't hang up.

we want to hear your story. we will see if we can get a clearer connection. we will talk to you for just a minute to see if we can get a better connection. next, let's put him on hold. new phone system. i apologize. michael in west linn, michigan. are you with us? caller: yeah. good morning. due to like to ask maya, great medical advancements with withr, with neuroscience, other medical advancements, it is puzzling to me would have made no result -- real, significant change in dealing with addiction. with the, we deal fantasy-based, guilt-based,

12-step program adopted by our judicial system, inflicted upon the addicted with very little chance of a recovery. now, a solution to this problem could be to have a communcal -- society in a remote area of the united states that these people could live in if they choose to do so. maya? that you'venk definitely hit the nail on the head in terms of the fact that our society deals with addiction in this really backward way that totally focuses on a punitive mindset, on a way of categorizing addiction outside of the public health concern. all of these other diseases are viewed as things that you can h

ave options for, that tyou -- you can deal with in ways that are according to your beliefs and your habits and your preference. and addiction is viewed as a crime, absolutely. i think in terms of looking toward solutions, the key part is the last thing that you said, which was, if they choose to do so. i think we really have to look at making our society healthy for people who don't choose to , thinking about our reduction, thinking about ways of providing health care for addicts, even if they choose not to go into recovery, because we know that the only real way to recover is to choose and also have the resources to do so. and we have to provide all of those things. host: marvin in fort bragg, north carolina, we are

listening. caller: yes, sir. i agree with the prison system do not work. when i do time and i get out, i do not have a job. i cannot go nowhere and get a job. it goes back to the dude that was on the street with the cigarettes. you cannot get a job. that's what happens when you can't get a job. the prison system does not work. -- once are in there you get out, you cannot get a job. you come back, you have to do is legal stuff to live. i can't get a job to take care of my kids. i've got to do something. it don't work. the prison system is just messed up. host: what was your crime that you got convicted of? bought some old junk cars from a lady that they weren't hers. i didn't even sell them.

now i can't get a job nowhere. nobody will hire me. it is a lose-lose situation. host: thank you, sir. guest: absolutely. i think you should write a book, because this is -- this is one of the most basic problems with -- system, that you get out 95% of people in prison get out, and when they are released, they have even fewer opportunities than when they went in. you have, in prison, often, these job-training programs and options for learning skills. you get out and, in many states, you have to say on job applications and educational applications that you are a convicted felon, and even if you don't, there is a hole in your resume, and you have to account you have tod

account for the fact that you might not be caught up on technology. there are all of these gaps that you need to reckon with when you are getting out. so often, people fall back into crime that is really survival crime. way inbout making one's a world that has rejected them. i think that any real solution in terms of preventing harm and preventing violence and helping society become safer and more hole and more healthy -- more whole and more healthy is going to have to think about how can we help people have jobs, contribute to the economy, contributed their families, be able to be active members -- contribute to their families, be able to be active members of society. you've identified the key missing link in the system that is causing it to continually

destroy families and communities . host: what is going on in flathead county, montana, that you write about? and why do you make a point of putting it in italics that it is a republican county? guest: so often, people fear this idea of the prison system -- people hear this idea of the prison system isn't working or the prison system is broken. it flips off a switch. they think you are a blazing lefty or whatever. to me, this is not part of the issue. in many ways, the idea of increasing prison budgets and strengthening families is very .onservative in nature what happen in flathead, montana, is increasingly happening all over the country. this is a county that is a majority republican.

they got the juvenile recidivism rate for all of montana -- i think it was 2008 or 2009. flathead county had the worst recidivism rates in the state. they thought, ok, we really have to do something completely differently. what they decided to do was, for all juvenile offenders, they would go through a restorative justice process, as long as the victims agreed to do so, and that meant bringing the victims and the offenders, after some counseling, together in a circle with community members, with family members, with other people affected by the crime, and each person told their story . this means the victim, saying these are all the ways that what you did affected me and my family, and these are all the harms that you caused and continue to cause with this action that you took by, say,

stealing my car or breaking into my house. and the offender has to listen to that, process the implications of their actions. this is something that never happens in prison, by the way. and then the offender talks about, these are the things that led up to me doing this. this is the background of my life story. and also, these are the ways that i'm sorry and some of the things i would like to do to move forward. often, the family members and community members are encouraged to speak. everyone talks about how they were affected and also what they think might be able to happen moving forward. and this isn't the end of the story. what then happens is unaccountability of agreement, where the victims are able to say, look, -- is an accountability agreement, where the victims are able to say, look, this is what i would like to happen, this is what would help me heal, this is what i think would protect the

community and my family in the future. part of that is something the offender might do. also part of that is what the community could do to foster enhanced safety. the agreements they are coming to are specific to the harm that has been caused and to the people who are involved and to the actual support that is necessary for the victim, as opposed to a law that is divorced from those situations and those people. host: have they seen a drop in the recidivism rate? guest: a dramatic drop. now, recidivism in flathead, , for -- flathead county juveniles, is some of the lowest in the state. this has happened within the space of five years. host: next call for maya schenwar. "locked down, locked out" is the name of the book. bobby. how are you doing? caller: this young lady, she probably has some really good material.

i've been in the prison system. from the time i was 19 years old until i was 40 years old. a lot of people don't realize -- if you break down this country and look at what it is, you have a lot of people that can't get jobs, because the simple fact is [indiscernible] people can do background checks. the people are trying to do right by themselves. these young kids go to prison. some of them try to get out and do the right things. they try to fill out an application. it says are you a convicted felon. we have to put that down there. if i go to mexico or africa or whatever, they don't have those

kinds of laws. they don't do background checks. they come over here. for two [indiscernible] apologize to you. the connection is really not very good. we are going to take what you've said and have maya schenwar respond. guest: i didn't hear everything. i think that the question was about background checks and the idea that, when you apply for as a former prisoner, you are dealing with the fact that anyone can see your record. and i think this is a factor that is really interesting, given all the questions that are being raised about surveillance and privacy. as a person who has a felony record, all of those rights that we think we have are severely diminished.

anyone can look you up, see your mug shot, even if they cannot do officiall -- do an background check, they are able to pretty quickly see that you've been incarcerated. when you've been applying for employment, often there is that formal background check, especially in this economy. if you have a choice and you've done that background check and in front10 candidates of you, most employers are going to knock off the candidate they've done the background check on. this is complete we counter to the idea of redemption or second tonces -- completely counter the idea of redemption or second chances. you've done this one thing. this action defines you for life, even when you done your time or made amends in some way. i think this is something we really have to contend with alongside any sentencing reform

or other action that we take on criminal justice, absolutely. host: you are on with maya schenwar, editor-in-chief of tru thout and author of "locked down, locked out. --"locked down, locked out." go ahead and make your comment. sorry. we will move on. you are on the air. caller: hi. host: i have visited. i should know that. caller: it's beautiful. i think i'm going to stay up here forever. my question has to do with whether we can fix this problem by going with a living wage, right from the very beginning of a person's life, and discouraging the criminal

element they get themselves into by not having enough to live on. guest: i love that question. thank you for asking it. i think that one of the things we really need to focus on when we think of this idea of reinvestment, so often, the idea of justice reinvestment means, ok, we reduce prisons and that means we have to increase policing budget. what if we decreased risen budgets and put that money into offering people the money that andncreased prison budgets put that money into offering people the money they need to survive without the crimes that are getting people incarcerated in the first place? i think that's one of the most positive, long-lasting, effective steps we can take to not only decreasing the prison population, but also increasing the safety and security of society as a whole. host: boring file clerk tweets

in -- my guess is he is being sarcastic. "i'm sorry that i burned down your house and killed your pet. please have me and understand. makes perfect sense -- please hug me and understand. makes perfect sense." guest: i think he may not have listened to the first part of the interview. if we -- i think it is the opposite of what should be advocated. i think the question of what happens when someone burns down your house -- we really need to address that with a lens to what would actually support the victim. for example, while i was writing this book, unfortunately, my computer was stolen and i lost the entire first draft of the book, and it was devastating for me. and i reported it to the police.

immediately, and was, like, i hope this person goes to prison, contrary to everything that goes in my book. but after i thought about it a couple of days and the police report i filed didn't go ,nywhere, i thought, you know the money that was invested in whatever happened after i filed a police report or incarcerating people for stealing computers, what if that money went to work buying me a new computer? what if that money went toward facilitating my healing process or my process of getting back on track with my life? what if that money went to work buying that family a new house and helping them -- went toward buying that family a new house and helping them get back on their feet? what if that money went toward holding the person accountable in a way that would prevent future violence?

what if that money went toward supporting that community in keeping an eye out for each other, can -- creating community groups where people support their neighbors and let them know if they saw someone wandering toward their house with, you know, i don't even know what you burned down a house with. but that would be the kind of thing that i would think we would want to think about, a, supporting victims, and b, creating a community culture where that kind of thing is less likely to happen. it's all about prevention and supporting victims. host: maya schenwar, what did kayla's addiction due to your do to youraddiction family, and in the prison system cause or exacerbate your current relationships? guest: i think addiction is hard on all families. and i think that the way society currently deals with addiction as one of the -- addiction, as out,f the callers pointed

is very punitive. it exacerbates anything happening for families. wasthe thing with my family , initially, we didn't really realize that an addiction was at play. we were giving my sister money. enabling her addiction in various ways. it got to the point where we felt very used. we felt like we were always on alert. anytime she might call us from the hospital, from the street, from the police department. she overdosed several times and we got call from the hospital and thought she was dying. i actually begin my book with a scene in which i get a call from my sister from prison. from jail. she has been arrested and she wants to be bailed out. this is kind of the height of her heroin addiction.

i basically hang up the phone. i wanted to be in jail -- i want her to be in jail because i don't see any other option in a society where we deal with addiction this way, and the other option seems to be death. at the time, all i wanted was for her to go to jail and be safe. well, actually, at the time, she was able to get drugs in jail, even doesn't -- didn't help with that. beyond that, coming out of jail, she felt like she had so few options and so few possibilities for her life going forward that, immediately, she went back to drugs. i learned my lesson, in my naïve hope that incarceration would solve the problem. , florida, please go ahead with your question or comment. caller: yes, i have a comment. the person that was on the prison system --

after such a ridiculous charge of [indiscernible] about this.stion i was a victim myself. i would start with something i didn't commit -- i was charged with something i didn't commit. i was treated badly. [indiscernible] out, it was totally destroyed. there is no attorney that wants to do my case. i had to hire someone to fight for my charge. i work in schools. you have no idea all i have been going through, and i was only one day in the house.

my heart goes out to the people who have to stay in jail and for the victims of crimes. of course, there are people who deserve to be in jail, but i don't know where to go or what to do. i was heartbroken. i'm not the same person. i don't like the law enforcement officials. i don't like what's going on in our country. i don't know what to do. i would like to see the information on where to get the book. i'm a writer myself. that is maria in florida. any comment for her? guest: i think that maria brings up a really good point, which is that there isn't this dichotomy between victimhood and prisonerhood. most people going into prison have been victims of crimes themselves. actually, the majority of people who commit violent crimes have been victims of violent crimes.

it is the largest predictor for whether someone will carry out a violent crime in their life. so, many people -- especially women going into prison, have been victims of sexual and domestic violence. the majority have. i think that is something we need to think about. prison is a traumatizing experience. we are taking people who have already experienced major trauma and subjecting them to more trauma. hurt people hurt people. so, people coming out of prison, who have experienced even more trauma, are more likely to do harm in the future. in terms of where to get the book, i think probably the easiest thing is just to go online, go on amazon, go on barnes & noble. "locked down, locked out" -- it is right there. host: fort meade, florida, good

morning. caller: good morning. great show this morning. all, congratulations on writing this book. i'm a volunteer that goes to the prison and works with people. [indiscernible] is that they are too afraid to [indiscernible] -- ager have this feeling lot of them have this feeling where [indiscernible] salaries and other situations, then against the them, and this is not a good environment.

it is not a good way to rehabilitate somebody. i agree with you. this is one thing i talk about all the time. we need to spend less money in the prison system, more money outside, whether it is treatment, training, and then society put trust in to these human beings once and for all. host: what kind of volunteer work do you do in the prisons? caller: i go in there as [indiscernible] -- t of times i see people all the time outside. they have nowhere they can learn. it is exactly the same situation

they came from. host: thank you, sir. maya schenwar? guest: definitely. one thing you highlighted that is really important is how prison is kind of intrinsically adversarial. there's this prisoner versus rdsrd dichotomy, where gua have this total control over prisoners. often, that's an abusive relationship. there are situations that are able to be used in prison that aren't on the outside. it's not just that you go to prison and that's a punishment. it's that you can also be punished within that system in very extreme ways. her example, solitary example,nt -- for solitary confinement, which, internationally, again and again is said to be torture. even very powerful officials in the united states have deemed it

torture, but it continues to be used regularly by guards as a type of punishment within prison. and yes, coming out of that, it is rough to get back on track or to get on track in the first place. i commend your volunteer work. that's wonderful. host: the last call for maya schenwar comes from tony in brighton, tennessee. you are on the "washington journal." caller: good morning. i would like to ask one thing. i went to prison for a nonviolent crime. i never saw myself as someone who would go to prison. i was driving on a suspended license. i had a very, located situation at the time -- very complicated situation at the time. i was doing what i could to get by. i get pulled over and i have to go to jail because i have so many violations. i go in. i asked for my parents to bill

me out -- to bail me out. i would probably be on the street if it weren't for their financial health. if it were somebody -- their financial help. if it were somebody who didn't have a support system like me -- when i got out, my mom told me - - she had seen my mug shot on the internet. that my picture is on a private website. there is no information that stupid. how can -- no information that to it -- no information next to it. how can they do that? host: we will get the response to that. what are you doing these days? caller: my financial situation is stable. i'm really worried about what would i do when i have to go

back into the job market when i graduate school. i've never had to deal with this before. i'm really concerned. host: let's hear from maya schenwar. guest: absolutely. i think that those mug shot sites are extremely harmful. they are, in some ways, more harmful even then the background checks. anyone can google you and see your picture. and the first thing that comes up in the image search is that mug shot. and those are often private websites. and the same thing is going on with my sister. i think, occasionally, there are private legal battles. there are lots of things happening on that front on an individual level. i think depending on the website, there are even cases where you or a lawyer can contact the website and ask for your picture to be taken down. i think some people even change

their names. barriers toof the coming out and living in an internet-connected world, where you've been subjected to constant surveillance while behind bars, coming out, your private life is still completely public. that's a major barrier to reentry. host: maya schenwar, what's kayla's reaction to this book? guest: she was the third person that i had read the manuscript. when she was reading it, i went to the movies. i'm so nervous. -- i was so nervous. i thought, well, if she doesn't like it, i'm going to have to throw out the whole thing. she loved it. she wanted her story to be told. she wanted the stories of my penpals to be told. she wanted the system to be put in the context of the family. really, there are so many people in prison, over 2.4 million and therencarcerated,

are these other millions and millions of people that never get addressed, and those other family members and the loved ones of people in prison -- those are the family members and the loved ones of people in prison. everyone in prison knows there are these impacts that ripple out to the rest of society, but it is often not something communicated in the media. that is the thing my sister was most pleased with. then god she liked the book -- thank god she liked the book. host:

plus your phone calls, facebook commence and tweets, all on atshington journal," live 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> the c-span cities tour takes and american history tv on the road, traveling to u.s. cities to learn about their literary life. this weekend we partnered with tile warner cable for a visit to waco, texas. >> as we began to receive the beyl to be digitized, to saved, we began turning over the the 45's. first off gospel music was not widely heard in the white community, and what it was would only be the hits, if that. or flip side would be heard even less. what we discovered quickly how many of directlye songs were related to the civil rights

movement. since there's very few data bases and none are complete on all gospel music, we didn't know know the sheer songs that had very overt songs, like there ain't no segregation in heaven, type songs. at a time when possessing one of songs, much less singing it, was a very dangerous thing deep south. you could get killed for a lot of things in the deep south, but song outhat sort of loud, that's a risk. >> the texas ranger hall of fame in 1976 for the 175th anniversary of the rangers. this point 30 rangers who made major contributions to the service or their lives under heroic circumstances. we have paintings or portraits those rangers, they austin.egin with steven austin was very successful with they fought not only managed to make the area

reasonably safe for settlement from indian raids, but when the texas war for independence broke a majorrangers played role in texas gaining its by staving off the mexican army long enough to allow the colonists to develop their own army. own result texas became its independent makes, the republic years.s, for about 10 >> next a look at the future of the tea party. then louisiana governor jindal u.s. foreign policy. after that, a discussion on the u.s. and global responses to ebola. the heritage foundation held a discussion thursday on the rise of the tea party, its impact on and its future.

panelists included heritage action for america c.e.o. michael, and weekly standard steven writer steven hayes. this is just over an hour. >> i'd like to welcome to you the fourth and final event in conservativesom from goldwater to the pea party event series. december 16,ght of

1773, something strange happened in the boston harbor. between 30 and 130 men, some of them disguised as mohawk indians, boarded three ships and dunked 342 crates of tea overboard to protest duties imposed by the british parliament. boston tea to the party, the british parliament passed what came to be known as to put theable acts, disgruntled colonies back in their place. the first shots were fired in the american revolution at the battles of lexington and concord. eight years later the treaty of paris was signed and the war ended. the sonsas born, and of liberty, who had organized the tea party, had won. then an even stranger thing happened some two and a half centuries later. comeback.rty made a they're no longer dressed up as do dress upn they they prefer a thomas jefferson costume or george washington

outfit. they're not dumping tea in the harbor. men.hey're not a few dozen roughly 20% of american adults identify now with the tea party. animating them remains the same. what madison described in federalist '57 as the manly spirit which act twaits the of america, a spirit which nourishes freedom and in nourished by it. contrary to modern belief, the not begin on february 19, 2009. disgust at the excesses of washington and at the originally of spend -- had beenof spending brewing for a while. the bailout has begun in the last nine months of george bush's presidency. 30 billion for bear stearns. andbillion for fanny mae freddie mac. 85 billion for aig.

then came, a $750 billion bailout for wall street, part of which was used to bail out g.m. chrysler. less than two months into his presidency, obama decided to one passed the $e 800 billion stimulus. to arm on cnbc cat roots a simmering grass upsurge. the tea party was reborn. the intolerable act, obamacare. a constitutional monstrosity passage was not a pretty thing to witness and is becoming more unpopular as peep learn more about it. opposition to obamacare the tea party and made it a national movement to be contended with. more than five years later the tea party has only grown stronger and is now one of the principal forces in american political life. questions remain about its

aspirations and future prospects. we for the most part understand is opposeda party to, but it's sometimes unclear what they're for. thatere a positive vision unites this movement beyond opposition to big costly intrusive and unconstitutional government? how conservative is the tea party? how libertarian is it? what sort of a foreign policy should it embrace? it found a true home in the republican party? on theseome light questions, we've put together an all-star pan expel therefore i'm the introductions rather short as i suspect you already know our speakers. first up will had are steven hayes, a senior writer for the weekly standard and a regular on fox news, also the author three books including cheney.phy of dick following him will be jim caesar who is the professor of politics at the university of virginia, a senior fellow at the hoover institution, the author of

inerous books and an oddity the academy, a professor of political science who actually politics.s american michael needham will wrap things heritagethe c.e.o. of action for america and this year was featured in political political 50 and there was a telling quote by a they make 600id, phone calls and have a member of the fetal position. steve? >> very good, thank you, david and thanks to heritage for inviting me here today. about 20 years ago i was sitting out in that audience as a young researcher at the heritage foundation, which is my first job out of college. to every single lecture i could possibly go, to mostly to make up for the didn't do in i college. but i found it incredibly intellectually stimulating and

loved my time at heritage. i'm thrilled to be here today with jim and mike, in particular dumb urkrole as the simple guy journalist who is going to make these guys look good just in comparison by my thatpresence and the fact i won't have anything as pro found to say as they do. talking about a time when i had some beers. beers with an advisor, a top advisor to mitt romney. of 2012.n the spring and we were delayed at an airport and we had a beer and we started an argument. and the argument was, is the tea movement?od or a and the more beers we had, the became.ted the argument and my argument was, my side of the argument was the tea party movement. a and his, the contrary argument tea party ishe just a mood. i would like to think that the title of our panel here today,

tea party turns five, means that i basically won the call him andi can gloat, because i don't know many people who can day in a mood, badher a good mood or a mood, for five years. krugman.r maybe paul he's been in a bad moom for his entire life. the debately continues between me and this fellow who is a friend of mine. it's possible that when we have i'm debate in 20 years when old and my teeth are falling out and i'm drinking a beer in a may notchair have, we be talking about the tea party as we understand the tea party today. but i think we'll continue to talk about its influence. seems to me that the tea party less a new inmovement than it has been for the past five a reindescribing ration,

another -- a reindescribing ration of the conservative movement. the nature of this panele series, this series suggests the main inflex points. the media loves to talk about writersparty, it keeps at the "new york times" some of them employed almost full-time. tea partyto focus on losses and the problems that the tea party has caused republicans, so they talk a lot about sharon engel, christine

o'donnell, todd aiken, others. they don't talk as much about victories, people marco rubio over in 2010.rist, just ted cruz. rand paul. huge tea party victories and we seeing the influence and impact of those victories every day.e it's far from clear in the electoral context that the quote unquote good establishment candidates that the media are talking about would have even won their elections had the republican primaries. sue loudon in nevada, i don't aink she would have won in general election. as often as not these candidate lost for a reason, they had no message, they had no ideas, they had no passion. and as often as not these are politicians who come to washington to fill a chair. title. a

rather than to do a job. tea party becomes ladiesy media short hand, like neocon to be at the en of the bush administration. would call everybody in the neocon.inistration a party has become mainstream media shorthand for like.vatives i don't beyond that, beyond the negative media attention the tea party despiteived and thrived i.r.s. targeting, indisputable targeting. to talkular these days to fellow reporters here in who say, you know, everybody was targeted, the tea singled out. everybody was targeted. so nobody was really targeted. back to lois lerner's first statement when she planted the question at the american bar event.tion

the reason she planted the question was so that she could oflogize for the targeting tea party groups, the targeting of conservative groups, the targeting of patriot groups. of the uniteddent states in effect apologized and said somebody would be held said wasle for what he inappropriate behavior. so we know that the u.s. the form of the i.r.s. most feared agency went after the tea party and yet tea influence continues. i don't want to overstate a long way from the days when nancy pelosi was claiming to be a tea party member. remember, she claimed that she was the rightful man for the tea party? nobody is making that claim. but at some point there have so many stories about the death of the tea party, that it silly. a little bit if the tea party were truly dead, we wouldn't have to have people reminding us all the time. when somebody dies, they die once.nd you hear about it

let me go over briefly some exit 2010, 2012 and 2014 about support for the tea party. same question was asked in each elections, and of course you have to account for the differences in the electorate. 2010 of course was everybody believes the height of tea party and 2014 i think that the mainstream media perspective that the tea pairt is on the way out or already dead. exit poll in the november, 40% of voters said party,pported the tea 25% neutral, 31% opposed. that's he height of the tea movement, supposedly. say they support, 4 # neutral, 30% opposed. so 31% said they apposed in 2010, 30% in 2012. in 2014, 33%, said they party.nted the tea

28% neutral, 36% say they were opposed. is that there's not a huge fluctuation in the kind of support or opposition that party has had consistently from its birth through the most recent elections. i would argue that the tea party remains influential particularly in washington because the we're having today are largely dictated by the ares of the debates dictated by the tea party. i remember listening to. years ago --ple p.r. a couple years ago. wesselring from david lament that the debates over the debt, all of the gridlock that was caused by and theover spenting dealt has really kept lent slaters from doing the kind of things they were september here to do, the kind of len legislation that the country really needs. was such an interesting

moment because i was listening to him, my thought was probably thought that strikes you, that is what these people of september here to do. to debate,end here spending, they were sent here to debate the size and scope of government. it's entirely appropriate that those are the things that we should be debating, that was the the 2010 elections in many respectings. that was in some ways the entire of the tea party was to refocus the debate onto different terms, rather than with all of this sort of perfunctory spending, the debt ceilingng of hikes. so that legislators could go onto the things that they are supposed to be doing. let me wrap up by saying that continues today. was a political piece yesterday about the fights on capitol hill right now, saying republicans will really struggle as the new congress begins because they may be down in debates over debt and the size and scope of government and spending. argument is good,

republicans should be having debates over those things, in many ways why they came here. that's the entire problem, or much of the problem with washington now. we spend too much money other by many years and we did it not debating these things. the debate i had with the romney partyr about tea influence came on the heels of wooey's attempt in 2012 to tea party voters at an event in michigan, in advance of the republican primary there. didn't do very well at the event, he didn't do well in general. very little enthusiasm for mitt romney among tea party voters, though many tea party voted for him any way. but as a mark of continued influence of the tea party look to 2016, does anybody here believe that tea party voters crucial maybe a decisive role in shaping the the 2016 republican primaries? the race itself is likely to at least a handful or a

few very tea party friendly republican candidates, rubio, walker,nd paul, scott others, i'm sure i'm for getting people. the lastingart of impact. these are the debates that we're having because of the enduring tea party.f the soon, ingoing anywhere part because the obama presidency was premised on reforring faith and government the expansion of government. that's what the president said in his first inaugural, it's what he said on his first day in offices are restore faith in government in order to expand it. it failed, that experiment work. public faith in the government is at a low right now and nobody is talking about expanding government, other than chuck schumer. with that i'll stop. me.k you again for having [applause] >> thanks, david, and i

appreciate the opportunity to participate on this panel with actually observers who have direct knowledge of some of the main figures who have been tea party and got it started and kept it going. rarelyhers in academia enjoy such access. to enlighten us academics have produced numerous articles on the tea party and many many two by chaired professors on the subject. yet there's one researcher who through her persistence and ingenuity, and acquiringanner of information about the tea party, especially its various elements theyrganizations, how spend their money, who the volunteers are, maybe details of their intimate life, and that lerner.er is lois

i want to say that it's a matter of great misfortune to those of in academia that her work on subject in a manner rep is in enlt of the accidental thomas carlisles manuscript on the french revolution, that hers may have to posterity by virtue misfunction.ve i did want to echo what was just wellthat miss lerner may have been the highest ranking government official to have a formal apology for unwanted touching of tea party records. and this she did as i pointed apology, it's been said that this apology was given without sincerity, that it was a kind of preemptive apology. advance, so asn to avoid giving a real apology. and then of course blame it on

others in this case low level bureaucrats, low level would be of the 99%, as distinct from higher levels who are part 1%.he not only on will level bureaucrats, but we're still on bureaucrats who operated in this unknown place called cincinnati. cincinnati, for those who don't know, is uzbekistan, about southeast of -- now what is the tea party. the term party, which comes from the origins mentioned, is an unfortunate thing because it makes you think that it's as a political party, where as it's in fact i believe it's a movement. that it's open, pourous, amore fuss, its vague and are undetermined. are, takearty members one position, others other positionings, there's no central office.

so it's a movement if you think back like the populus movement, like the progressive movement, and the occupy movement on the left, and so forth, all such and pourouse open with different strand. and it has all the movement,stics of a which is to say characteristicses, excesses bech can and should criticized and characteristic advantages, energy in broughtar, which it's to american politics. theou want to characterize tea party without malice, i'll get to those who do it with in a minute, but it's fair to say that it's first populus, i mean it engages in popular action. actuallylikes rigid organization. figures.establishment of all sorts, almost as a kind of presently digs, if you're in

somehow.lishment to controlen unable many of its own membership being populus and amorphous movement. what else is characteristic of tea party? its emphasis upon unlimited spending. spending, unlimited spending relative to government income. massive debt and therefore intergenerational justice. generation, assuming all the advantages in putting the debt off on subsequent generations are. i would say another characteristic is it tries to connect to the a view of found inside the constitution, and in the origins, that's an important element, this connection to the past and to the constitution.

therefore now moving it up to a concernouple years, with lawless disregard of practices.nal 2014, it was illegal immigration and executive and administrative overreach. now let me turn to the malice, very important. the tea party has served a function for the conservative movement. also served an important function for the left. symbol ofved as the delegitimate behavior in american politics. symbol ofas a extremism. every disportion imaginable has been attached to the pea party to discredit it. often its own views are cast aside, and whatever sinister who of is one can think

reputed to be sponsored by the tea party. party spoke ofea debt, its critics said it was actually a racist institution. or a sexist movement. and so on and so forth. openly attacked and vilified from the president of the united states openly on down. justust, it's not therefore what's misgoided about the tea party, but a further taken, the pea party is fundamentally an illegitimate movement. party itself is mildly illegitimate, but that's the soft and flabby outside. core of the tea party is entirely illegitimate. dismissed, can be and here's the interesting point, because it is so it legitimate, anything it does even within the formal are iteristics of law legitimate. the left operates today under a higher law or a

super constitutionality. doescause the tea party not compromise and now it's said that american politics must rest therefore any ision that it takes legitimate and it's quite correct for some other force from outside the constitutional channels to regard to without constitutional reforms. has been happening in the political commentaries of scientists in washington who invented these categories it's --they they his first accomplishment was national debt onto

the front burner and making people think about the problem of the debt. this may be receding a little bit from 2010 when it really was from of american politics. it's been lost a little bit. succeeded in making this, americans aware of succeeded as ive mentioned in putting forward als idea of intergeneration injustice. they're the ones in the pea that reminded us if you somebody will have -- i think this is most important about this idea of debt. not so much at the federal level muchnd we've spent too time thinking about the federal level, but at the state level.

former democratic states were some control of public union is essential. the problems with the indebted problem. they have not found a way yet of accomplishing this, the tea party, at the federal level. and have not exercised full plenary power. this has led to some tactical blunders, of which we are aware. part perhaps, to achieve of the goal, which they did to sequestration, it could be argued that the tea party turned its back too much on the defense spending. the second accomplishment. bringing.theh constitution saying