clear that that was not going to he was support. he said, in fact, that he would veto it. within a matter of a day or so, that bill was restructured iin a way that past is a one-year extension. wasn't a $450 billion permanent head to the budget. so, i think that study, i worked closely with senator warren on that at the case study on how it's something if out of bounds for the presence perspective, he will continue to express his views, including if necessary the threat or actual be two of legislation that is inconsistent with his values, which are the values of improving life for the middle class and working americans. >> we're just going to see a cavalcade of vetoes. he is going to send stuff back. >> hopefully we will see a

productive congress. arehe same time, if there pieces of legislation that are consistent with his values, he will not be will sign those. >> it will be interesting for us to cover that. i want to thank the director for a wonderful conversation, i want to thank the peterson conversation for their continued support of these events. i think all of you for coming out. i want to give a special thanks to the director of my high school, it is that it came out. my mom is here as well. good to see you. you taught my first economics class in high school or middle school. i think i passed it. i don't know if i did particular well. but i got through. thank you for coming out. having one for holiday season. we will see next year. [applause] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

>> we hear from former white house officials tomorrow talking about their books. former cia director leon panetta on his book, "worthy fights." robert gates talks about his book "duty." timothy geithner talks about his book, "trespass -- stress test." that's tomorrow in c-span2. here's a look at the programs you will find christmas day on the c-span networks. holiday festivities start at 10:00 eastern with he lighting of the national christmas tree. followed by the white house was with decorations, with first house -- first lady michelle obama. and the lighting of the capital is the street. edited by, supreme court -- at bush samuel alito and jeb on the bill of rights and founding fathers. at c-span2 on 10:00, the art of

good writing with stephen finger. and see the feminist side of a superhero as jill lepore searches the secret history of one woman. at 7:00, authors talk about the reading habits. on american history tv on c-span3 at 8:00 eastern, the fall of the berlin wall with c-span footage of president george bush and bob dole. with speeches from president john kennedy and ronald reagan. experts onshion first ladies fashion choices, and how they represented the styles of the times which they lived. news anchorrmer nbc tom brokaw on his more than 50 years of running on world events. that's this christmas day on the c-span networks. for a complete schedule, go to c-span.org o. >> from reuters, today a story on two new york police officer slain in a fair retribution -- in apparent retribution.

hiskiller post of intentions on instagram before killing two new york city police officers who sat in their patrol car outside a housing project. the virginia senator tim kaine tweeting the senseless killing of two nypd officers last night -- absolutely heart breaking. thoughts and prayers with their families and loved ones. congressman al green wrote the murder of the two new york police department officers was truly a dastardly deed. my prayers are with their families. new york charlie wrangle -- let usess pray pray for healing and peace building in our committees. president obama issuing a statement yesterday saying i unconditionally condemn today's murder of two police officers in new york city.

the national black caucus of state legislatures recently talked about reducing violent in predominantly black communities during their annual conference officials andh law enforcement, they discussed effort to keep kids in school, the use of special prosecutors in officer involved shootings, and police training tactics. this is about an hour and a half. now, i want to start by highlighting just a couple of things that those of us here at nbc sl think are important for the record. systemicize the complexity of this issue, and comprehensive, immigrated, multifaceted approach to finding a solution. that solution has to include stakeholders, collaborating for successful systems change. thatse here, we recognize

in order to deal with this issue, we have to talk about changing systems. the problem will not be sold today, but our goal is for the audience to first and foremost -- we want to provoke thought. we want to to give some thought to this, and finally, we want you to leave with specifics with what you might be able to do when you get back home. today's conversation focuses on -- focuses its lens on recent ts of officer violence against young black men, and addressing gang and a mystic violence in our communities. violence has always been a concern in communities of color, the recent events have put it at the forefront of morse -- most

if not all mind. we have had over the recent few months, three indictments against law enforcement officers for shooting young men of color. statistics as you listen to the presentation. aboutn-americans are three times as likely as white drivers, and two times as likely as latino drivers to be searched during a traffic stop. even though they are significantly less likely than whites to have contraband when they are stopped. and although there is no additional database on the total number of officer involved fatalities, each year between 2005 and 2012, a black person was killed nearly twice a week by police. with almost 20% of those being killed under the age of 21.

we talk about our next generation, hopefully the statistic in and of itself will impress upon you the fierce urgency of now in our taking action. deserve a better public policy response, and that is why we are here. at the same time, we face violence within our own community. sl, we are not running away from that fact. we knowledge that. thate wanted to be clear african-american firearm related deaths are twice as high as they are for whites. black women are almost three times as likely to experience death as a result of domestic or intimate partner violence. teen or youth violence continues to be a problem, especially among black males between the ages of 10 years old and weigh

four years old, whose homicide rate exceed those of hispanics and whites in the same age group. we recognize that inter-violence -- interracial violence -- let me try this again. i was thing about rudy giuliani and i lost my train of thought. [laughter] a try this 11 more. -- let me try this one once more. we recognize that intra-rasul -- racial violence is not unique to the black community. [applause] i wasn't fishing for a comment. that said, the violence within our community also merits are full attention and sustained sustained commitment to doing something about it. we need social action and collaboration from the public and private sector, and i will

because all of these stats are beginning to overwhelm you. my eyes glazed over, and i started off saying it's not about me, it's about these men and women on the panel read let me quickly moved to that. before we hear from the people on the panel, i want to take a moment to introduce a young man who is taken the time to comment from the administration to share the administration's position on this issue. and before we get to our panelists, please allow me to introduce mr. roy austan, the deputy assistant to the president for the office of urban affairs, justice, and opportunity. as deputy assistant, he coordinates policy, covering terminal justice, civil -- criminal rights, civil rights, housing, and other areas . he is a member of my brother's

keeper task force. please welcome mr. austin. [applause] >> good morning. with a name like roy austan, some of you might think i am from texas, but i'm from the great state of pennsylvania. youlet me start, and thank ms. cobb hunter. let me start with some words from the president. this is from a speech he gave not too long ago. and he said -- i say as someone who believes that law enforcement has a incredible difficult job. --t every man in uniform every man and woman in uniform are putting their lives a risk to protect us. they have the right to come home from their jobs just like we do. but there is real crime out there, and they have got to tackle day in and day out. but they are only going to be able to do their job effectively

if everybody has confidence in the system. and right now, unfortunately, we are seeing too many instances where people just do not have confidence that folks are being treated fairly. in some cases, those may be misrepresentations, but in some cases, that is a reality. it is incumbent upon all of us as americans, regardless of race or region, or faith, that we recognize that this is an american problem, and not just a black problem, for a brown problem, or native american problem, this is an american problem. when anybody in this country is not being treated equally, under the law, that is a problem. it is my job as president to help solve it. and those the words of our president, and he has been doing what he can do to help solve it.

so let me continue with some of these statistics. some of these many of you know already. we have 5% of the world's population, and yet 25% of the world's inmates. havehird of all americans some kind of arrest record or criminal history. who are2 million people currently incarcerated in our jails and prisons around this country. we know for a fact that the impact of a criminal record is enormous, both on the individual , on the individuals families, and on our communities. we absolutely know that the impact on the african-american community is far greater than it is on any other community. we also know that the levels of incarceration that we see today are unsustainable. they are unsustainable financially. they are unsustainably sociably. and to be honest with you, they are on sustainable --

unsustainable morley. -- morally. we know this is bigger than just the criminal justice system. we know this is about jobs, housing, and education. we know all those things matter, and one of the best things we can do to help to fix the criminal justice system is to make sure people have jobs. this president has created over 10 million jobs. but let's talk about the criminal justice system, and things that have already been done. things that i would hope you're doing in your districts to move forward and to help solve the problems we see in the criminal justice system. one thing is the school discipline guide that was put out by the department of education's and apartment of justice. -- department of justice. we know that youth of color are disciplined more severely than other youth in their schools. this guidance helps to educate -- health educators help to fix that problem. we know that attorney general holder has instituted what is called smart on crime.

to look at only the most serious defenses, so we are not incarcerating people for the wrong reasons. justicece of juvenile has turned that and made it smart on juvenile justice, so we're looking at alternatives to incarceration for our youth great we know that we have the justice reinvestment initiative, which is currently in existence in 21 jurisdictions. when it was justin 17, it was evaluated and found that over 10 $4 billionas save us by not locking up so many people. it is working. for the first time in 40 years, we have seen a reduction both in incarceration, and in crime. the first time in 40 years. we know that we do not have to incarcerate everybody. for there to be public safety. we know that for the first time, we've seen a deep freeze and federal incarceration. we know that many states,

including the state of texas are reducing the number of people's who were incarcerated substantially enough eating an increase in crime. we know we can get these numbers down even further. we also recognize there is more to do. and the more to do is -- the president just announced a task force of 21st century policing that is going to look at policing across this country. we know that we just looked at all of the equipment programs, $18 billion going into police department. and that is going to be reformed. announced $75 million we want to see go towards body cameras. president, the attorney general, and the secretary of education just announced a correctional education guidance for kids who are incarcerated. we have my brother's keeper communities out there, over 200 communities that have the my up to push forth brother's keeper community program.

we know this is bipartisan. we know there are numerous bills on the hill, both republicans and democrats to the value in reforming our criminal justice system. and we are listening to. the attorney general is out there listening. he has been to atlanta, cleveland, and memphis. he is on his way to chicago, philadelphia, and oakland. we going to continue to listen to you. we ask you to reach out with new ideas. we want a partner with you, we want to make the system a better system. we want to ensure that we really have a country where all of us are equal under the law. i thank you. [applause] >> thank you, reverend austin. [indiscernible] [applause] [laughter]

>> for our sound people, is it ok if i sit here? x feedback. -- >> feedback. i hear it. i will get up and do what i need to do from up here. we are ready to start our conversation. pleased to be able to talk -- to offer you a five-minute women with the level of expertise that they have. we've talked about how we wanted to flow, and we thought a lot of dou're like us, lord -- bore with having talking heads sit and read from prepared remarks. we thought a u-shaped table would help us to see each other, and have a conversation. if you have question, tweet your guestions about hasta

nbcslalc38. texas,e have the lady of the queen of the texas legislature. representative senfronia thompson is with the texas house, and is the longest serving women and african-american in texas history. she has been a champion for the underserved in the underrepresented. she has authored bills on racial andiling, to mr. violence, the hate crimes act. next, we have dr. david klinger. researcher, who is going to tell us all we need to know and give us the data to back that up. released the source of the data to back it up.

he is a professor of criminology, and criminal justice at the university of missouri st. louis, and senior research fellow at the luis foundation. he has worked as a police officer in los angeles, and redmond washington. written on the issues of -- on the issues of arrest, practices, and use of force and terrorism for the last 10 years. is caller chief john dixon, iii. we were teasing him that he came in his uniform so we know he means business. we will listen to what he has to say. he is with the petersburg police in petersburg, virginia. he previously served the richmond community for over 24 years, and had a chance to

experience all aspects of policing. his passions are in the area of community engagement, use engagement, and improving the overall quality of life and neighborhoods. he is also the immediate past president of the national organization of black law enforcement executives, known as nomble. then we have representative deborah barry, who is championing legislation to take lethal weapons from convicted domestic abusers, keep children safe from online predators, and educational reform. lastly, but certainly not least, we have a new be on the panel. legislator, emmanuel chris welch, who is been serving in the illinois legislature ends january 2013.

-- since january 2013. he has authored and passed legislation on reducing gang violence in communities in schools, he also served as legal counsel for various school districts and municipalities. lenin mention a couple of ground rules. each panelist will have five minutes to make their opening comment.er we will go in order with each panelist. afterwards, i hope that the conversation -- i will begin a conversation with our panelists. later on, we will open it up for q&a. there are cards that were in your seats. if you don't have a card, raise your hand, and a staff member will bring a card to you. you don't have to wait until the very end to write your question or submit your question. if you are like me, you probably want to write it as soon as it

comes to you, because you might forget it. but feel free to put the question on an index card, and submit it. they will respond to those questions at the very end. we want to make sure that your phones or silence, that you keep your side conversations to yourself, and finally, if you would rather tweet your questions, we would ask that you please tweet any questions to htag. we are ready to start. are you ready? all right. misty -- miss t. if showtime. -- it's showtime. >> when you have been in

legislation this long, you are flexible. >> i bet you can hear me now. i want to welcome you to taxes. you have been welcomed by my colleague. -- welcome you to taxes -- texas. i want to take this opportunity to thank my colleagues, representative helen giddings and the senator for luring you to our state and being so successful in doing that. i'm serving the legislature here for some 42 years. i had a whole lot of other things that could have been doing. my stay in the texas letters later. -- legislature. im single, i'm independent, have a job, i work, make my own money. [laughter] persons in our society who cannot afford to

hire a lobbyist, to come up to the state house and advocate for themselves. those are the little dogs. i like to look out for the little dogs. those people don't feel like they have anybody to take care of their needs, their wants, and their desires. sometimes you want to say, hell, i don't be bothered with this damn bill. why did they bother me with this? but after you listen to this person, in you listen to their needs and cries and hurt, you can't afford to let them walk out the door without giving them some help. i worked on a hate crimes bill in texas. let me give you the backdrop. we have a bill in texas that if you knock down a fence and kill cow, or a a pig, a bat, you can get a third-degree felony and go to the penitentiary.

it sounds like a joke, but it is a truth. but the residents -- the legislation was resistant and being able to force people to face the fact that hate crime existed within the state. and that the life of a human being was less valuable than that chicken. and that calvin you might have asked that we run into a fence and killed, and get a penitentiary in texas. who lived in jasper, texas. going home, minding his own business, not emitting any crimes. two white guys decided to change in behind the truck -- chain behind a truck and pull him behind the truck until they had dismembered his entire body. he was so dismembered, his family could even successfully bury him.

they went to the funeral home to take a suit, the man says there is no need. we can't even fit the body in a suit, because we have body parts. we passed that bill in taxes because we had a hate crime bill that would not pass constitutional muster. the biggest obstacle was the did not want people with sexual orientation to be a part of that protection. i know you feel like me. good on itst to be promises and protect all of its citizens. and then we pass the bill on racial profiling, driving while you are black. to one of the things i want tell you, the reason we have such a problem with racial profiling is because we have institutionalized the fact that it's all right to be able to profile people according to their gender, according to their race. and we are back in dread scott, whether you want to believe it or not. when the judge in the dreads got , ae says a man has no right

black man has no right which are white man was bound to respect. this is something we still fight for today. ,e have a racial profiling bill and i passed that bill. but the last session of the legislature, we passed a significant piece of legislation. by saying to the district attorneys in the state, you cannot withhold exculpatory evidence -- we had a man who spent 25 years in prison, and they have the evidence he was not guilty of killing his wife, what he had to sit in prison for 25 years, until one day this evidence was discovered. the prosecutor withheld because they wanted a conviction. they already knew he was innocent. my time is up. [applause] >> dr. klinger. >> can you hear me?

>> first of all, i want to thank everyone for coming in this morning. i think the panelists and the organization for inviting me here. i want to talk about two things that i think are really in a and two things i think they can help us deal with this critical issue of the use of deadly force by police officers in the united states. as a former police officer, i understand both sides of the equation. i have been talking with the chief about this issue. i think that one of the ways that they legislators can make an impact on what police officers are doing is pay attention to the training that is going on in your state, about a particular issue. and that is the tactics that police officers are trained in. some ofhe problems, in the recent events we've seen on tape, is police officers are doing what we call getting into close, too fast. what happens when police officers are into close, too fast to individuals, they don't

have as much time, they can't think as quickly. it leads to unfortunately, some tragedies. one of the things that is important in your state, there's going to be some type of we typically call police officer standard in training. a post-association that has power to mandate the type of training officers get in the academy, and then in-service training. if we can spool up legislation to get more training for officers about how they need to enter interactions with people, we might be able to reduce the number of police shootings. if we reduce the number of police shootings, we are on a better path. this isn't necessarily a black /white issue, it's an american issue. we need to make sure that american police officers across all 50 states are really trained. the second thing, as gilda mentioned, about the data regarding how often police officer skill citizens in the in the united

states. we have three different data sets that are spread across different agencies in the federal government that tracks dead people, i.e. people killed by the police. the senate just passed the death in custody reporting act, which is a step in the right direction in terms of getting better data. what we have to understand is most of the time when police officer shoe, they don't kill somebody. the bullets either miss or the individual issued survives. bodies, we on dead are missing the big picture of the use of deadly force by the police. i working with jim behrman, the president of the police foundation in washington dc. we are putting together a pilot study, where we hope to get a by and for many of the major police arms across the country, already the los angeles police department is working with me and working with jim to put together a serious data collection program that will permit us to track every single

time a police officer discharges his or her firearm. i would ask you to use your leverage as state legislators to assist us, the police foundation of the university missouri st. louis, and other entities that want to get this up and running, to go ahead and give us your support. i think these two things, in terms of improving police tactical training and improving the data collection, so we can really know the scope of the issue -- right now, we honestly don't have a clue. we have a baseline in terms of dead bodies, but we don't know what lies above that in terms of many people who were killed by the police are not counted in official statistics. we have no clue about how many people are wounded by police gunfire. we have even less of a clue about how people are shot at and missed. i would encourage you, from a pragmatic perspective, to try to use your power to leverage these two issues. improving police training, and getting a more robust data collection system for the use of deadly force by police officers in the united states.

thank you. [applause] >> thank you. chief, you want to talk? >> government hear me -- can everybody hear me? it's a pleasure to be here among such an esteemed group. you guys are the ones that make the laws and make it happen. we enforce those laws that you make. i want to make that really clear. this is so important to be here, and to have this mesh of individuals here to be able to deal with this. so some real change can take place right here and now. let me start out by saying that the vast majority of law enforcement officers working within our communities are well-meaning, and goodhearted individuals who want to do the right thing. with that said, one incident of violence in our community is one too many. we all have to strive towards bridging the gap between

community's of color law-enforcement officers. nelson mandela once said people respond in accordance, and how you relate to them. if you approach them on the basis of violence, that's how they will react. if you say we want peace, we want stability, and we can then do a lot of things that will contribute towards the progress of our society. communities in our did not happen overnight. and there is no one response to why it happened. it is going to take some time, and there is no cookie-cutter solution. we have to look at an array of philosophical solutions. we have to educate our community. both on voting, and not just voting on the process of voting. and tellit here anybody how they should vote, but educate yourself on what voting is, and how to do so.

there is a push right now that a lot of people don't know, in criminalizing menthol cigarettes. by your response, i see you didn't know that. but there is a push on criminalizing menthol cigarettes , which will have an adverse effect in african-american communities. we need to be educated on those things, and be in front of it when these things happen in order to address it. we need to have transparency within our organizations. transparency a heard mentioned earlier about body chemistry body camera certainly is one way to create transparency. i keep in mind, we need to have policies that address those issues as well. those body cameras inside your house, when you are at your worst, will become viral. i see a lot of heads shaking. a lot of people haven't thought about it that way. all of that stuff that goes on

is now going to be on youtube and on the news, you will have an opportunity to see those things. people at their worst. if you have a good government job, you may want to look at that. [laughter] for officers, as the good doctor mentioned, is important. we have to look at training. we have to look at how we train our officers. if we train them to be combative, guess what, you get combativeness. if you train them to be solution oriented, you get solution oriented processes. we have to stay focused on that. i would like to end this with something -- where do you want a star of -- solve this problem? do you want to solve it with young black men in their backyard, or do you want to wait until the go to the graveyard? -- until they go to the graveyard? [applause] >> good morning. >> good morning. hello?

all right, talk louder. thank you. foruld like to thank nbcsl the opportunity to be here today and be on this panel that is an issue dear to me. i get too emotional we talk about criminal justice, and the disproportionate impact on immunities of color. or just any kind of injustice, a kind of gets me stirred up. i'm going to try to be a lady appear, and really get to the point of some things. as representative cobb-hunter talked about, and me being involved in aid to mr. violence bill-- a domestic violence that had to do with protective orders -- if anyone had a temporary protective order or a permanent protective order, the judge, the courts could say that you -- there was a big issue.

representative miller, when i dollars my cali down there too. -- i want to ignore knowledge my colleague down there too. that bill would say any kind of weapon could be rude -- removed from the home. may, and you know how those maze work. -- may's work. that bill came out of a woman in one of the rural areas that was really threatened and killed by her husband, or whoever that was who terrorized her throughout their marriage. that bill kind of came to fruition. another thing though, if i can go back and quickly make another point on some of the committees that i have served on. this is very important.

term, ito my seventh have served on public safety. public safety is the committee where we get a lot of issues related to policing, things like that. those kind of bills. i was fortunate enough to really have first-hand looks at a lot of the bills that came through their, that affected communities of color. and judiciary committees also is another area where some of those prosecutor -- prosecute in attorney bills come through. another bill that was very important that i was able to get involved in was the internet predator bill. my also a person who, of all types of bills i introduce, i as we heardsent -- from her presented of thompson, and probably all of you. -- representative thompson. we all have the same kind of

heart here. the influxd was with of internet, there has been a lot of online predators out there kind of praying on our children. ying on our children. people posing as kids. went into effect in iowa that would keep kids safe from online predators. that isimportant bill quite appropriate for today was the afterschool programming bill. i know back when introducing legislation, and that bill, after euros of -- years of working hard, republicans were in the majority, it took many years to get that legislation. get something in the iowa code that would say -- that would allow churches or any kind of evenization that schools who had an interest in providing afterschool programs for children -- there would be

funding for the state available. the reason that is important is because doing -- during the times of 3:00 to 6:00 every day, kids are usually left at home by themselves or in. that is when children are involved in at risk behaviors, finding themselves involved in sexual activities, and he of at risk behavior. -- any kind of at risk behavior. i will being a low risk state, both parents have to work to make ends meet, we found that was the first step in helping young people not get into the juvenile justice system. think our black youth represent maybe 45% of those in the juvenile justice system. and we know if you start out as a kid, and then it goes back to school, then it goes back to what is happening in the home. we hear those kinds of conversations too.

i look forward to hearing what representative welch has to say regards the education system. if we do not say something to really help families in crises, in terms of children not having a safe place to be, then that is what we find. they start young getting into the system. i think i heard either representative cobb-hunter or representative thompson talk about the fact that starts in school. just how kids are looked at. i don't know if you have even if you have-- children or grandchildren elementary schools, watch how they are being treated. i observed it in my granddaughters classroom. -- a is a little black wha little black boy. the teacher was giving him more attention, and the boy was not doing anything for than anybody else. it goes back to a lot of factors

as to what is going on. it's definitely systemic, it's a systemwide problem. it starts on every level, and we definitely need to do something to address this issue on all levels. thank you. [applause] >> good morning, everyone. i am both honored and humbled to be here this morning. i'm honored because i am the freshman appeared. and i'm definitely humbled, being the chicago and -- chicagoan in dallas, we kept her -- a week after dallas kicked our butts in football. you guys have read a lot of headlines in the news that we see, it seems like weekly. talking about the violence within our community. i wanted to give you three nuggets that i think we should all take back to our respective but irs in our states,

think can really help us from a policy perspective, address violence within our community. i think the first thing we all the to do, and we all need to demand as the caucuses in our respective states -- we need to demand that each one of our state provide an education to our kids. [applause] we need to stop expelling our kids on the street. when we expel our kids on the street, we are sending them from the schools straight to prison. these zero-tolerance policies are not working. and as the gentleman from the white house dated this morning -- stated this morning, we really need to, from a legislative standpoint, start making the schools address student discipline in other ways. for the educators in the room, i'm not saying keep these bad kids in your classroom. there are some kid you have to remove them from the classroom setting because other kids within it want to learn, should be able to learn.

but we should not have the first resort be to put kids on the street. in illinois, we are addressing that issue in senate bill 3004. my senator is leading that fight in the other chamber. we are going to get it right come january. we are going to pass a bill that addresses when a school can and can't expel a kid onto the street. they need to first offer alternatives, because we want to keep those kids in the school system, and not put them in our criminal system. the second thing we need to do is we need to give people who have made a mistake a second chance. people deserve a job. they need to be able to take care of their families. i'm proud of the illinois legislative black caucus just led the fight to pass a bill in illinois, house bill 5701, which bans the box. you cannot put on implement applications the question

whether you have been convicted of a criminal offense. you can't even inquire about a criminal offense until a person has interviewed and been offered a job. people shouldn't be excluded from the opportunity to get gainful employment just because they made a mistake in the past. this new law goes into effect january 1, and i guarantee you black and brown people are going to benefit directly from banning the box. the third thing we need to do, and it's a bill i went to fight on last year, is we need to end the code of silence. in chicago, these gang bangers truly believe that snitches get stitches. we need to teach them it is cool to snitch. we need to teach them that it is cool to snitch. [applause] but we also need to provide them the necessary protections that go with that. 1139, i created "in witness protection program.

-- the gang crime in witness protection program. these folks know who committed the crime, the need to make sure they know who was going to do the time. prosecutors can offer these folks who know what happened an opportunity to be put on a witness protection program just like on the federal level. this isn't rocket science, we know what is out there. a lot of states do not have witness protection programs. we are going to have to deal with that from religious leader perspective. we have to make sure it is budget for. -- from a legislative perspective. we have to make sure it is budgeted for. protectionsave the for them. thank you. [laughter] [applause] >> thank you. let's give all our panelists hand. [applause] let's direct a couple of questions to the panel.

we have some that come from the audience. if you have a question, you have index cards, please feel free to write your question and submit it to us. i want to start, dr. klinger, if i can come with you. again, we know that emotion doesn't convince anybody. we are very much in today. what we are interested in hearing from you is -- is there any evidence of a link between community violence and police shootings? is there data that just that? >> as indicated, we don't have a good idea of what is going across the country in terms of use of deadly force by the police, because we don't have the data set. city of st.ago, the louis gave me the opportunity to look in all of their officer involved shooting case files. suspects were killed by police gunfire, suspect the were wounded, and situations were officer shot but nobody was struck by gunfire. did was weolleagues

were able to map the locations where the shootings occurred. what we found is there is a powerful relationship tween levels of violence and neighborhoods and the numbers of police shootings. as violence increases in the city of st. louis the least, that is a thing that is driving the use of deadly force by the police. that is something we always have to keep in mind when we are looking at this important question of the use of force by police. it is largely, at least in st. louis, a reaction or response to violence in the community. >> chief, do you want to respond to that question? >> i think again, there is no cookie-cutter answer to any of this. focus onave to do is case-by-case, we have to use evidence-based data in order to approach this problem. we have got to know what is really happening, so we can improve it. with that, we have to keep that feeling part in there. we deal with communities and

feelings. these folks aren't sitting there with all the scientific evidence, they are sitting there reacting to how they feel about whatever took place. we have to keep that in mind as we approach these issues. >> tank you, chief. -- thank you, chief. -- welch,tive welts, we are really interested in what you are doing in chicago. because of your work, we want to know if you think there is a real solution to curbing violence in our communities, based on what you have been doing? >> i do think there is a real solution to curbing violence. the real solution starts early on. it starts with education. that's why i spent 12 years on the school board. in most of our states, we are not adequate funding education. illinois, ranked 49th out of 50 of how to fund our schools. we could do better, we should do better, we have a demand that we do better. a demand that we properly fund our schools.

schools can't keep the kids in school, the ones they are expelling, they'd a lot of keep them because they need smaller class sizes. there is a whole lot of reasons why schools are trying to find ways to get rid of kids. because they can't afford to educate them. as a body, we need to demand we adequately fund our schools are schools. we need to encourage parents to get into the schools. parents are not the enemy, they are the friends. my first bill as a legislator last year was a bill called bring your parents to school day. house bill 129. it's exactly what it sounds. illinois schools are now required to offer once a year, an opportunity for parents to go to school with their kids, attend class, go to gym, eat the lunch. get the parent into the school, and let them see what is happening. start focusing on education and demanding that it is funded adequately, we are

really going to address the issue of the violence in our community. >> yes ma'am. >> we also have to provide good jobs for those parents to be able to afford to go to those schools, to see about their children. you can take a lot of pressure out of a family if they are able to adequately support themselves. then they have an opportunity to be able to look at those other things that they can address, like what their kids are doing in school. if you are able to pay your bills and have a few pennies left over, you can do a whole lot of things. we have a responsibility making sure the good jobs are provided. this a great nation to everyone else around the globe. is a good opportunity to talk about a bill i tried to introduce, as representative cobb-hunter knows, that would allow parents were working time off work. again, with i would being a low-wage state, parents can't

afford to not work. it's not that they don't care or love their children, but when you are at work, and then it strict and you can't get away, that is a problem. and that is why the bill i introduced -- if i can say, representative welch, you must be in a democratic led legislature to get all these things done. >> thank you for clarifying. discussion ashe it relates to parents needing to be there. but again, in our state and others, we can't afford to leave. there is nothing to protect them from losing their jobs. without getting some sort of repercussion for doing so. >> i truly think the great supplemental bill to the bring your peers to school day is a

bill that allows parental leave. we already allow if the malay -- fmla types of leave. whether it's four hours a year that they can leave work without penalty to go visit their kids in school. a lot of states already have those on the books. the ones that don't, we really should consider rental leave act. -- parental leave act. >> the point you made about the new magic bullet, silver bullet to address this issue. in most of states, we've seen legislation dealing with body cameras being offered. how do you respond to those colleagues who take your point about the violation of the privacy issue, but respectfully suggest to you that -- yeah, that is true, but we have to make sure we have an accurate

record of what is actually transpired? do you think that the notion of privacy overrides the concern of the public's part about wanting to know exactly what happened in that interaction with the officer? think one is clearly we want more transparency within our police organizations. i don't think that's a doubt in anybody's mind. i just say "what you ask for. we need to under's -- be careful what you ask for. we need to understand having that transparency opens up that door where privacy, you have to consider if your privacy is more important than knowing what is happening there. i have been in many calls that you walk in the door and people are usually at their worst when the police are in their dealing with whatever those issues are. that i knowings think the general public wants to go public. there has to be a part of it. we are dealing with situations

where people are arguing, fighting, whatever is going on in the privacy of their home. police officers are coming in to interact and deal with those issues. now, that's where it stops. once these cameras going to play, that's not where it stops. >> let me let you follow-up. youret me ask you about area of expertise in training. one of the concerns that those of us who represent communities of color here a lot is the lack of cultural competency on the part of law enforcement officers. as you respond to the chief, would you also address the competency issue, and any other issue involving law enforcement training that we ought to be aware of? >> absolutely. i want a second the remarks that the chief just made. when i was a young police intervening into ribs and process. the women were in the process of being raped. if we were to have body cameras, there is a law that says that

people cannot get access to this, these us scenes of these two women literally -- we are rescuing them from the hands of rapists, that would be on the internet. that is wrong, wrong, wrong. you havelegislators, the opportunity to pass laws, not just make a policy statement, but pass a law that says this type of information requests,e subject to no matter what the case might be. i don't know the details, that that is something that needs to be done. victims of violent crimes should not have to be subject to derision that will come by having their information pop up on youtube. i am with the chief 100% on that. not just about you on your worst day, but crime victims. in terms of cultural competency, i think that one of the critical issues that people need to understand -- the chief and i have talked about this. and czar framed as black and white about policing. -- things are framed as black

and white about policing. it's blue, the blue uniform versus citizen sometimes. when you do figure out how to train officers understand two things. they need to identify with the citizens, no matter what that this is particular background might be. and understand the citizen has an expectation on the lines of what mr. austin was talking about, that all people be treated equally and fairly. the second point about that is obviously, there will be cultural differences. black, white, asian, hispanic, whatever the case might be. within the black committed, there is different subcultures. it is really vital that police officers understand who it is they are interacting with. they get training in the academy, and they get training in service so they understand the community they are policing. that is really vital. stopssn't something that at the academy, it has to be ongoing in terms of in-service training and having people from different backgrounds. perhaps even coming to roll calls and making presentation.

there is a lot of room for that. >> the takeaway from the whole conversation about body cameras, for those of us out there looking to introduce legislation, is -- let's look at it from various angles. you aren't necessarily saying don't do it, you understand it's not a silver bullet that we think it is. and we need to engage others in law enforcement, the privacy community, all of those to make sure that in our effort to help, we aren't inadvertently creating something. i want to go to the chief, because you asked a question. you raised is something that leads to one of the questions that came from our audience. and that is your point about the thin blue line. chief, what has come out in all of this conversation has been some friction in the eyes of some, with police unions and

communities of color. could you just give the members of our audience some idea of how we engage police unions, as a part of helping us come up with something that will work? >> the first step in that, everybody has to understand everybody else's side. my experiences lead me to believe certain things and react in certain ways. i tell people often when i am dealing with these issues i deal with them with a couple of different hats on. one, from a police chief. from a black man. three, from a black man who has a black son. areof those issues important to me. i have the pleasure of understanding each piece of what goes on. place to look at it from a police perspective.

what we all have to do is sit we shouldat table -- have 19-year-olds and .0-year-olds to discuss these their perspective is going to be different from ours. a have to engage in roundtable with everybody involved to focus on solutions. you, chief. did you have something you wanted to say? whaten i think about happened in ferguson and in new york, i think about the police side of things. there definitely needs to be more training. i look at both of those incidents and say are those officers trained? -- excessivesive's force was used. they have to be trained early on.

role as a lawyer from municipalities i represented many police officers. those had had gotten it right got it right from the outset. we need to address this issue. they are required to report data on what race you are. make sure every time force is used police officers are required to report it. whatever force they have, i guarantee they are going to think twice about the force they will use. >> let me ask you this. would you talk to us about what you see has a solution in a

dressing the code of silence? i don't want to put our to law enforcement experts on the hot seat by having them address it. how do you see us addressing this notion in law enforcement, within law enforcement? abuses that don't go reported within their ranks. is my question clear? as someone who represents police officers, i understand it. tos just nature we want protect our brothers and sisters. we have to train law enforcement just like we are going to train the kids. if you know someone doing something illegal, it is not cool to try to protect them.

theirave to snitch on brothers and sisters to of are doing something wrong. the only way you are going to root out the bad apples is to tell it. teach him in the academy. they are teaching that brotherhood. teach them if somebody is doing something illegal, it is wrong and i'm going to let someone know. >> we have two lawyers on the panel. anybody who wants to respond can feel free to respond to it. that is this notion of grand jury's, and how all of that works. indictment,ck of which to a lot of us appear very clear-cut, what do you say to what we are seeing from prosecutors and solicitors when it comes to presenting information to grand jury's for

indictment? >> i have a short answer. had bills with the attorney inside the room. i really believe that is one of the solutions to the problem. i believe we have the other attorney there with the prosecutor. prosecutorsng the not being diligent and not living up to his code of conduct. i just think this is a good safety measure. i know you all the look at me crazy. i believe this is a safety net, that that would be a good thing in there. i don't believe that lawyer would be disrupted.

>> thank you so much. as representative welts gets ready to respond, in addition to what she said there are some who a speciallling for prosecutor to be called getmatically so you don't into this issue of conflict of interest. what do you think that would do >> i -- would do? >> that is the solution. cannot have folks who work together every day have this special bond and investigate one another. was the prosecutor in ferguson. in that incident, there should appointedan outsider as a special prosecutor to look into that situation.

every lawyer who goes through law school know you can indict a ham sandwich. sandwich didn't get indicted in ferguson, that is because of the bias of the prosecutor. if you appoint a special prosecutor from the outset, you would have avoided the whole incident. >> one thing we want to remind the room is change the person who's in the role of prosecutor. let's not forget we are elected officials and elections matter. sure we come up with all of the solutions and don't overlook the process that has brought all of us to this room. >> i do not know the details of what is going on in wisconsin in the last couple of years. ,here is a three-pronged bill but one has already been passed.

it is another way to think about how it is states can structure these very critical reviews of officer involved shooting. >> i'm going to start with my sister from iowa. you raised a point to our democratic colleague and democratic-controlled state about getting stuff done. thus --kind of talk to to us? where your ability to decide the outcome of a legislative issue is going to be.

what do they tend to do is read third -- is revert to the rudy giuliani school of thought? how do you talk to colleagues on the other side of the aisle who believe that view? >> i totally dismiss that black on brought a -- black on black crime craft. say to people crime happens where you live. white on white crime happens where you live. asian people kill asian people or commit crimes against them. crimeole black on black thing, let's just not say that anymore. that is a way to continue to from theissue separate real issue of the fact that there is some serious issues with some police

officers across this entire country. it is interesting you ask me that question, because i remember when i introduced my first bill on racial profiling and the chairman of that committee was a republican representative. him and said, i'm not going to run your bill. i said to him, why not? he said, "because i don't believe racial profiling exists." i sat him down and said to him here are the reasons why it exists's. -- exists. i think for the first time in his life somebody explain to him that it exists. the bill to not go anywhere because him being a former trooper, he honestly didn't

think he could get his colleagues to support it. it took me years and years to really work on that person. to answer your question, how to really work across the aisles and get the other side to at least listen, it is very important. just being able to understand a -- first ofings all, no permanent friends only permanent interests. be patient, you have to understand that. it took 20 years, you say? -- fivefive years after years for that afterschool legislation to codify. really be able to communicate with people, be open and honest about things. people --et to know

once they really understand who you are, why you believe in these things, once you have educated them on these issues, it is much easier for people to see the other side. once people understand that these issues are real, and that they also affect their communities -- it affects all children. who is impacted by it the most? african-american children and children of other minorities. it is about communicating. >> don't take this the wrong way. you are the only one i can ask this question. >> i used to work in south central los angeles. proud to be the only white boy. only one --signated >> designated white boy? >> how can tactical training overcome deeply held fear, white

police officers who are involved in these shootings and a black man. what can we do with a white police officer to get them to not be afraid of the brothers? >> the ones i work with, the gentleman and the ladies i know, aren't afraid of black people. number one, if you are afraid of people you are going to be policing by virtue of your skin color, that is a problem. the next question is how do you overcome it for someone who might not be aware of it. help these officers understand that everybody is the same. the skin color is just the difference -- different.

it is very true that crime is an interracial phenomenon. no doubt about that. black on black crime is remarkably higher than levels of white on white crime and hispanic on hispanic crime. for example, in st. louis, missouri, 90% of all of the murder victims are black and about 90% plus of them are killed i other blacks. we can't not look at that disproportionate interracial violence among black communities. louis isoing on in st. not remarkably different from other places. i think we agree about a lot but i have to did -- have to disagree about that point. need to rather

respectively disagree, because in terms of the disproportionality of it, i do agree with that. is how many of you walked up to you and say, why is it black people kill more lack people? percentagewise, we probably to wel -- but the notion that are the only ones killing is not a good assessment of the situation. that's kind of my point when i say that. >> all i wanted to say is i'm not arguing that white people don't kill white people, hispanic -- that's not true. it i'm saying is disproportionate involvement of black on black crime. policeman in south central los angeles i used to have to ride in the back of ambulances with young black kids who got shot by younger -- by

other young black kids. why was i writing with them? waiting for a dying declaration. that way i can say this person told me it was this person or whoever it was to shot him. that is no fun. boy, isignated white that policeyou know officers, when we are trying to save lives and trying to protect people, i'm sure there are , but the vastere majority of the men and women i -- we hatek with having to take that ambulance ride. it really rends our souls. >> i just want to clear up -- we

have to look at what is going on. is -- as muchit fear as it is a lack of understanding. i'm a believer that the police department should look like your community. it should match your community. what that does is bring an understanding. if i grew up there -- i have had people say white folks growth outside the projects. that is really the broad online -- the bottom line. isthe middle of the day it burning up, so you hang outside. it is not a negative, it is a condition. >> thank you so much.

i can tell we have met our goal of making this conversational, because you are all being conversation out there -- conversational out there. want you to think i'm picking on the two of you, but the four ofare like us, so they are not interested in the four of us. all of them think they have important legislation. a question for either of you who want to answer about training in our criminal justice academy and police academies. can you speak about what we need academies?ng for in what are your suggestions about things we ought to be looking for and how we engage our criminal justice and police training academies?

>> the number one thing that is hitting the news everywhere is how often are they responding? i'm not going to get into the details of what anybody else believes, it is happening. we need to figure out how to stop it. we need to train our officers in a different way. when you pull up two feet in front of somebody who is supposed to behind harmed, something is wrong tactically with the fat. the same thing in understanding cultures, we have to understand where it is a church van pulled was by the police and it full of holiness people. when they started reacting and praying and doing things the officer was uncomfortable with, he called and more units because

he didn't understand folks laying hands on each other. we need to understand he came from a background where that is unusual. we have to train our officers to on the scene ilk may tell a group of young men you ain't got to go home and the neighbors respond accordingly, well you have to get. you have created an environment where there is going to be some kind of native -- some kind of negative reaction. >> thank you, chief. we have questions for you. go ahead. >> i'm listening and i just want to stress the importance of i don't understanding think that is a reason to want

to kill people. also justlot of it is stereotypes and things that are ingrained in the fabric of our psyche of this country. if is no excuse. with thatve to deal part of it. describes -- >> there are two points i want to make. i don't know a single police officer that wants to kill anybody. i've done it and it is no fun. i have interviewed 300 police officers across the country, black, white, hispanic, they are not looking to shoot people. i promise you that.

are there some that cops? i'm not going to argue that point. majority of police officers do not want to pull the trigger. they don't. part of the evidence is how infrequent it happens. second thing is, if you spend your time talking to police officers who have done the work, i'm not talking to the debt to the chief about this particular have been in situations where without a doubt i could have legally pulled the trigger. not. we value human life. that is the story of human death -- story of police officers. part of this conversation has to include the understanding that the police are not looking to gun people down. >> thank you, so much. upon some the cat evokes passion and all of us, but i

want to remind the audience that part of what we want to do here is give you data so you don't have to do like you just did, and that is react emotionally. the cut is when you become emotional about some -- because when you become emotional you lose your ability to persuade or even allow the person you are talking to to understand the point you are making. we have time for one more question. want to say for the record there was a question about snitching and how with your legislation -- i don't want you to answer it. i'm just saying what is left on the table's of somebody is going to come up to you and ask you and howe legislation somebody who does that ought to feel when they see a police officer.

there was also a question we didn't get to. any of you can feel like answering. it is about psychological testing, and what role that plays. whether we ought to make it a public policy issue as far psychological testing. theuse we want you to have ability to come up here at the end and the trust your questions to our panelists, we will now move to our closing conversation. we are going to start with you. sureis your chance to make you leave one point he wanted to make. to thank everyone for coming out and hearing us. i think it is important that we remember that the leaders and our respective states have to demand that we adequately educate each and every one of our children. we have to demand that every person who has made a mistake in their life is given a second

chance. people whodemand know they have committed crimes, whether it is gang bangers or police officers, that they tell. it it will all happen with increased violence in our respect of communities. thank you. >> i guess i would leave everyone with this -- i support police. if you are not protecting and serving you don't need to be on the force. we are all trying to do it we

can to raise our children, make ine they are safe, but to be fear for the safety of your children every day of their lives, particularly male children. i refuse to live that way. i'm even afraid for my granddaughter. i think we have to make sure that we continue to educate. as legislators we need to have the discussion in our communities. make sure the policy is addressing the issue. when we get emotional about this stuff we react like the folks on social media. i just think it is important to really stay above it as much as we can and make sure we set the to really make it a better state, but do not ignore

the fact that these things are happening and they need to be addressed. thank you. >> i saw that emotional response to that. i'm going to stay back so we can have further conversation. at least have your responses, what we call evidence-based. would it really exist? part of why we have things that affect us, ancillary law, is because we don't take the time to look at what happens here and now that affects later on. we have to make sure we focus on that. whatever your responses after that that is fine. i will tell you, the vast majority of police officers are not out here to hurt people. have i fired officers that have?

yes. no police officer wants a bad police officer around him. issue then becomes that guy has information on me and my family that i do not want the bad guys to get a hold of. a jugular would love to get the information that he has on me to have some kind of negative response. that is the vast majority. do we have bad apples? yes. should they go to a penitentiary if they commit a crime? yes. do a blanketed emotional response on addressing these issues, because then will -- then what will be the long-term alternative? to get to beoing police officers then? want to add, the importance

of the teat of things i talked about initially, we need to get officers trained up because of an awful lot of the bad incidents come not because the officer intends to do something bad, but because he or she made a tactical blunder. most of the time and honest review of what a police officer does will show that what the officer did was correct. we need to focus on that. we need to not let bad cops doing that things get away with it. thing is i would encourage you to get behind the effort to develop a national database on the use of deadly force by police officers. need evidence-based policies, evidence-based training. can get those programs up and running is when we have the evidence. there were many members around the community that want this evidence.

we are going to move forward on that, and hopefully i can count on you all to be supportive. >> i hope that as an organization that we would continue to stay together on this issue and not let it fall within the hands of a few to carry the burden. we will work toward policies together as a unit, so that all americans will be able to benefit from the respect and force of the laws of this country. race, sexual orientation, or ethnicity. >> we want to, on behalf of nbc we really want to thank

you all for being here. i am very much interested in having you all say around -- all stay around. as the doctor and her present at the thompson said, we are in the south. so those of you from the west and the northeast, you are going ashave to bear along with us i'd put to you in southern speak, what we want you to take away from this. and quite frankly, the bottom line is we would rather see a sermon than here one. meaning walk the walk, not just talk. -- bottom line is this is a very difficult problem. we hope you remember we said we are not trying to provide solutions here today. you tosimply try and get

think about what you need to do. evidence-based, evidence-based, evidence-based. talk to your police training academies, talk to your social service agencies, talk to your educators, talk to everybody. we want you to connect the dots. get off your butts and do something when you go back home. thank you so much for being here. give the panel another round. >> monday night on c-span, national institute of health director francis collins talks about the promising results and challenges facing cancer research today. it is part of a discussion

hosted by the aspen institute. here is a preview. >> it is amazing to see the inside. and they are coming out of also its of technologies we did not have before. things are getting better. the whole genomics revolution, giving us insight in how cells work and how things go wrong. the efforts to understand the details of clinical types. all of these things are coming together in a way i'm not -- i would not have imagined happened in my lifetime. one thing that is particularly troubling and discouraging to scientists is the following, what is your chance? if you have a great idea about it is clinical.

you are working on an academic institution. where are you going to get funded? traditionally over the last 50 years it has been one in three. >> you can watch all of the discussion with francis collins tomorrow night at eight eastern. >> next a discussion about national security with lisa supervisor former fran townsend. they talk about the ongoing threats facing the country. this is an hour. >> hello everybody. i am president of atlantic life

and welcome to women of washington, where we spotlight eminent women of the city. among the people we met over the years, janet napolitano, judith ronan, these are great women of washington. we call this series by its acronym, "wow." susan carter is in the audience. susan, would you stand? [applause] thank you to you and your team for support. i think this series reaches into the heart of a lot of women and men around washington. the women we are going to meet today have dedicated their lives to public service and dealt with some of the most daunting issues of our time, ebola, torture, cyber security. lisa monaco, the counterterrorism advisor to

president obama and prints it -- and francis tauzin -- townsend who had the same role under george w. bush. they will sit down with my colleague, steve clemons. they will talk about national security, the white house trajectory -- the white house experience and the trajectory of their lives and work. silence your cell phones. please follow us on twitter at atlantic underscore live. #atlantic wow. >> happy holidays. i wore my red sox. [applause] >> i'm obsessed with national security issues. it is so cool to make our final program about this subject. usually when we have these events we try to work out a deal with the stars and say, can you

give us a big report? i should not joke about terrorist incidents. the things you guys do are in the news. the challenges -- you said you're been into guantanamo a few times but have not made it to havana. i guess the part of what i liked is you to have been in the same business. how did you two first meet? >> it is great to be here. i want to thank the museum -- >> i hope you feel that when the interview is over. >> this will be the best part of my day. [laughter] i was a young lawyer in the justice department working as counsel to janet reno.

i would see this woman, very intense, clearly had everything together, who had walking rights to the attorney general. i learned it was because she was standing on the front lines, keeping us safe, dealing with national security issues. that was my first in princes -- first impression of fran. >> i was doing a job lisa earlier had held. i was responsible for wiretaps in the national security arena and would often have to go in. lisa was a bright lawyer and there was nothing she did not want to learn. if it was a particular narrow area and not a lot of people understood, you're going back to the time of the east africa bombings, not a lot understood

what pfizer was. lisa had an appetite in intellect to absorb all that. she chose interest in an area early in her career. >> we are going to open this up in a bit. we want to get to the substance of how to think about counterterrorism. what you're thinking about isis and a variety of things. i want to start with something more monday. when you sit in your job and you have to task of advising the president of the united states on this sort of stuff, how do you approach that? it is interesting because i think many of us are interested in shows like "house of cards"

because everyone wants to know how it unfolds. there could probably be tv shows based on both of you down the road. what is the real world like in terms of this? is the u.s. intelligence bureaucracy so big that human beings in the middle of that not matter? >> human beings matter tremendously. the relationships that you are able to build in our job, the one i hold and the one ran previously held -- the one fran previously held, it is critical. to get all the views out on the table, understand rapidly what the situation is and might be and to be able to relay that to the president. and hopefully be right and give the best advice you can with the information at the time. the relationships of trust is integrated -- is vital. >> there is much more that comes

to you then goes to the president. part of your job is to filter, and not in a good way, human has some he hours in the day. you have to make judgment of what he must know so that he is prepared. what is most likely to require his attention. for me, the days start at 3:30 in the morning. workout, shower, get dressed. i was in the car by 5:30 to read daily briefs. already, at that hour, there was interaction with the intelligence committee. i thought additional information should be added to it. it is a process to get the right information to him in a timely way that is comprehensive. so he is not getting a single agency's view but rather an integrated view.

>> i would say it would not be in accurate to describe this time as a time of 9/11. after 9/11, the shot that hit the country changed the way we do security -- view security. we changed the way we think about intelligence. in my view, you see the growth of executive power over issues. we just had the release of interrogation report. often called the torture report. fran, you're not read in on many of those issues. that was not your purview, but it does raise the question of whether or not we have had a healthy balance between creating institutions around security with appropriate -- roll back some stuff on drones. we have to make decisions

differently. is not a lot of difference between president bush and obama in how they practice these techniques. what is healthy? >> frankly, there has been a tremendous around -- amount of back and forth between the intelligence committee -- community and congress. the extent that the richer has been painted -- the picture has been painted, that they do not have sufficient access, that is unfair. it is hard for the intelligence community to make that case to you. i will tell you, on the most sensitive of programs, including those i was not read into, there was a gang of eight.

there was a good deal of information back and forth. there is an overwhelming amount of material and it is difficult to have the resources and devote the time. we have to do a better balance with that. we have to do a better balance in terms of transparency. how and when we speak to the american people about programs. there been an ungodly number of leaks of information. on the other hand, there are ways in which we can talk about programs and issues that we do not do enough of. >> i agree. we need to do more in the transparency realm. the president has spoken about that across the board. we took a number of steps to do that in the wake of the stone disclosure. that opened up a debate we had not had. i think there are good and productive ways. i think it is an important debate to have.

you have seen it is all -- you have seen it evolve. it should involve congress more. there is a question about what is a legal floor. what can you do and what should you do? the president has spoken to whether it might not be wise to put constraints over that legal floor at a policy level and to discuss those with congress and make sure those are transparent. >> both of you think a lot about terrorism in the world and how to pull the plug on it. fran, you're the president of a new group called the counter extremism project. part of the conceit of women in washington is that many others would like to know what your track was. over those pillars that help you achieve success? in this particular field, we see isis, we were just talking about james foley. thinking about how you pull the plug on that. >> the counter extremism project is a nonpartisan -- joe

lieberman and i announced it on the margins of the u.n. general assembly. before we did that, i called lisa and center everything about the organization because the organization was not meant to compete with government. it was meant to supplement what the government does in a way that government cannot attack the problem alone. the idea was two or threefold, to challenge bad guys like isis, al qaeda and their affiliates in this social media world. that is, to challenge to shut them down. we cherish our first amendment and are right to speak. there was no one who would believe that beheading videos and pictures ought to be permitted on social media. i think the social media companies would agree, they just

do not have the resources to devote to it to take it down. we started this nonprofit with the idea we were going to hunt them on the internet. we were going to announce them publicly and to the companies and asked that they be taken down. i know we are being affected because the results of that, i've got death threats. >> every death threat you go, wow, i'm doing a good job? [laughter] >> it is a badge of honor. the other part was to track the money. looking at companies that sanction busted in a run. we have the technology and the know-how to use public source material to go out and find the people who were the traders, allowing isis to move their oil onto the black market and to out them.

if we cannot out them and that does not change behavior, we can provide that information to governments around the world. >> are you surprised by the sophistication of some of these people you are tracking down? i interviewed david: who is a lot of responsibility for targeting sections. one of the areas isis is blocking is antiquities. you have to know something about southern these -- south of these -- that requires educational the world. does that shock you? >> at the shock me. the thing that is incredible is when you look at their propaganda, there was the inspire magazine that al qaeda had each was a folded thing. you could tuck it in your pocket and we would find it in caves and searches. now, they have the internet and we see hollywood style reductions -- productions.

they have someone filming when they do a raid and they incorporate those clips, it is set to music. it is professionally done and it is hard for the u.s. government to compete with that sort of a narrative. >> i want to applaud what the counter extreme and -- i want to applaud what fran has done. it is something government cannot do effectively. to be honest, sometimes, the government is not the best messenger on countering the legitimacy of the brutal message that isis is sending. we need muslim voices, voices from the arab community and the countries that have joined the coalition. we need the private sector, nonprofits, other voices countering, sending out messages and using social media platforms as effectively as the

extremists. fran would probably agree with me, the evolution of the threat -- the framework has stayed largely the same. al qaeda core, continue plotting from the territories in pakistan. there been greatly diminished. they're distracted from lanning -- >> can you tell us anything about course on -- khorasan? in my reading of things, that sounded like an important passion -- action. this was slipped in under the rug of something we have been watching or thinking about. most of us who follow this had never heard of the group. what was going on? >> i think it is a good thing you have not heard of them because we were doing our job, trying to disrupt threats before they became public knowledge.

the khorasan group is the name for a group of al qaeda veterans who have transported themselves from afghanistan, pakistan and sought the safe haven of syria. they did not go there to fight aside. -- they did not go there to fight a side. the fact that it is basically an ungoverned space. these are veterans plotting against the west and the homeland. that is what -- >> are other pockets like that in the world that we have not heard yet that you are worried

about? >> we are worried about al qaeda affiliates like a q ap --aqap. they have been persistent and skillful when it comes to aviation plotting. that is something we have not taken our eye off that all for one minute. even as we are focused on actors like isil in the khorasan group. >> when we talk about foreign fighters, it sounds a people far away. we are foreign fighters in the united states. australia, which we've been talking about the last few days, and were a lot of people looking at australia that was the first to line up in the coalition against isis. devoted fighters and personnel. about 60 people go abroad. they have about a hundred who have been actively financing or trying to finance isis

australia. how do you deal with that? that is a different thing than out there. that is an inside problem, right? >> i think people have to look at this -- there are two prongs. one is the foreign site -- the foreign fighter who may return. the more immediate problem is what you saw in australia. that is a self radicalized individual. he or she is harder to catch. there is a shorter loop for lisa and her colleagues. it is easier to interrupt the room -- the loop that involves foreign fighters. for the loan individual, 24 hours earlier australians had no

idea -- >> the self radicalized person is just a criminal and not a terrorist. how do you feel about that? >> if you were inside that cafe, it does not matter. if you are lisa, it does not matter. you cannot talk about one without understanding there are two prongs to this threat. she has to do with both at the same time. the self radicalized one is closer to home at the moment. >> the thing that fran and i, throughout our time in the white house have had to deal with is the al qaeda core threat, the affiliates, but this other category we have talked about his lone wolves. those who are susceptible to the ideology who will turn, potentially, after a series of messages. we have always been concerned about those groups, if you will.

this last one takes two forms. it is this one we of seen the most change in. it used to be that these individuals would self radicalized by doing something on the internet or a magazine. now, with the evolution and proliferation and prowess that a group like isil is making of the social media platform, that has altered the homegrown violent extremist threat that we face in ways that we are just beginning to understand. groups like the one fran is heading is a vital part of our ability to combat that change. >> which is why we founded it.

it is a greater threat now as a result of that. the private sector needed to play a role. when we talk about the isis threat, we talk about where we fight it today. we are fighting in iraq, syria. it is worth noting that they are on to the next thing. it is clear from what we see that isis is already working through their playbook in places like saudi arabia, jordan, lebanon. they are fighting in iraq and syria. the focus is there expansion of the caliphate. they are doing many of the same things in those places that they did in the early days before it was a public war. that is a real challenge. it is a challenge for the intelligence committee and our allies. >> both of you have to deal internationally. as women, i do not want to presuppose this, it is a field dominated by men.

i went through and listed a lot of other women from condoleezza rice to hillary clinton to michele flournoy. it is a substantive list but it is not a giant list. it is interesting within this country how do are treated as women. is it a nonissue? how do you deal with saudi arabia or the uae where someone like you is somewhat unusual? >> give us a good story. >> i'm going to take you back to august or july of 2003.

i am not on the job for three or four months. we have the infamous 28 pages in the 9/11 report that remain classified related to saudi arabia. there is a meeting in the oval office where all of the national security leadership on both sides. i am not invited to the meeting. the meeting goes poorly. the saudi's leave angry. there is ant time official break. they had been very maligned after 9/11. we all know the story, 15 or 19 hijackers. a decided poor return. i am told i am going to represent the president in saudi arabia. i call in to everybody to get me ready.

in onee consistent thing, and that is absolutely you cannot go, the saudi's will view it as insulting because you are a woman. i dutifully screw up my courage and we for my moment to approach president bush privately. i say this is what i have been told and you are not going to hurt my feelings. maybe it is better if you send somebody else, and i have happy to bow out. the president, quite irritated, said it is not your choice, it is mine. two, what you don't understand about the saudi's is they won't care if you are a big purple dinosaur. youou come because i sent it wasn't "big purple dinosaur," it was "a man or

what they care about is that >> did he say big purple dinosaur? >> he did not care what you were. man or woman. what they care about is that i sent you, and you have my ear, and speak for me. and they will treat you just fine. i probably traveled there more than any other the administration official. i spend tremendous amounts of time in the kingdom dealing with all levels of government, including the secret service there. i was treated incredibly well. a postscript to that in my private life now, i also have cause both for business and otherwise to travel to the kingdom, and have can treat it -- continue to be treated well. i'm not treated differently because i am a woman or have my voice or opinions taken less seriously. quite the upset. someone once said, you're more effective because you have all the benefits in saudi society of being in terms of politeness as a woman, but you have all of the same juice as any man of any rank in the kingdom. you have the best of both worlds. >> what is your best saudi story?