host: welcome to "washington journal." if you happen to have one or many past here or present, we are interested in hearing from you about your political hero, if you have one. here's how you can call in this morning. you can also tell us your thoughts on your political hero on twitter this morning, or our facebook page. you can also send us an email. it was in the light of mayor cuomo, that cbs posted quotes

from many leaders. the new york attorney general said __ this got us thinking about this idea of political heroes, and if you have one. again, you can let us know who your political hero is. it can be a political __ a present_day hero, or from the past. all we would ask is that you take the line that best represents you. if you would, please turn on your television when you're on the air, and tell us why that person is a political hero. to give you a little bit of background __ this was released by gallup.

they look at problems in 2014, look at concerns about the top political problem. in the top category was government, politicians, and congress. that was followed by the economy in general, unemployment and jobs, and healthcare. but, politicians and the government taking the top concerns for the poll from 2014. again, when it comes to political heroes, that is our topic this morning. tricia, good morning. caller: good morning. my political hero would be abraham lincoln. he was a strong enough moral character to know what was right, and he was going to do what he knew to be right in his

heart. i feel that is missing a lot in our political leaders today. they say they know what is right, but in washington they are persuaded by the different factions. they go along party lines, regardless of __ i do not agree with it. they do not stand up for what they believe to be right themselves. i believe if we had more leaders politically, in general, more leaders in our society who stood up for what they believe to be right, we would be in a better place. host: you are in company because our first comment on twitter said abraham lincoln. when did you get attracted to abraham lincoln as a leader?

caller: live in indiana, our general area __ illinois, kentucky __ it is the area that we live in. i am fascinated by the fact that he lost his mother at an early age, he was still educated, his life is fascinating. host: abraham lincoln is first up. thomas from new jersey, go ahead. caller: i first want to say, i really enjoyed all the c_span programming. the two political years i have __ i would like to extend my sentiment to abraham lincoln as well. visible fact that he was a great man, and honest man, hero. he pushed for the 13th and 14th amendments to the constitution. my second hero would be ronald

reagan. he held in the cold war, as well as get our economy on track. host: were you always a reagan fan? we influenced __ were you influenced by your parents? caller: i go on walks with my neighbor, and he is a proud conservative. i also did my own research, and i was drawn to his ideas and optimism for the country. at the same time, the understanding that we need to in the soviet union, and communism. host: joe is up next. caller: good morning. __ is my political hero. host: why so?

caller: bernie sanders talks to the real issues of the united states. host: what does he do that you agree with? caller: evening out the playing field on the taxes __ tthe 1% pay so little, and the rest so much. host: when did he come to your attention? caller: i have been following him all my life. he is probably the only person who carries the name as a socialist, but runs as an independent. my ticket would be bernie sanders and elizabeth warren. host: we've heard from three people now. you can identify from one of the previously mentioned heroes, or mention one of your own.

next up is david from pennsylvania, aa conservative. caller: my hero is definitely ronald reagan. he was elected why was 21 years old, in college. he was a real inspiration. he inspired people like myself to work hard __ if you work hard, you will become successful, and be rewarded. he also inspired the country, and the world. he was anti_communist. you have to give them credit for bringing down the berlin wall. host: irving from georgia. caller: thinks to c_span.

without a doubt, my hero is the late great martin luther king jr. to give you a brief example __ in april 1968, i was nine years old. two years prior to that, when i was in second grade __ when we speak of national negro history week, this man was not even in the history books. now, here's revolutionize world history. you can see in contemporary __ with the election of present barack obama __ finally, if hillary clinton declares her candidacy for present, it will be a landslide. host: that was irving from georgia talking about late reverend martin luther king in the pages of the "new york

times" this morning, thoughts from politics and policy __ interviews were done with tom harkin, republicans from georgia, rep. waxman. it goes on to quote a couple of them. starting with mr. waxman.

again, you can read more from the "new york times." don't forget, next tuesday, the return of the 114th congress. you will hear from freshman representatives. all part of a five hour package starting on tuesday. calling in from kansas city, missouri. caller: how're you doing today. my name is pastor david liles.

i want to say __ my political hero is james carburn. he did a lot for the people of south carolina. i think he is a great political hero. host: calling in from texas, carlos. caller: my political heroes are abraham lincoln, ronald reagan, and george bush. host: why reagan? caller: he was a very principled man that really advanced the christian social agenda. i really appreciate his service.

host: let's try the next caller. caller: my hero is any of the political leaders that have stood up for the people instead of the money. stood for the people when they needed them the most, instead of the system of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. as a liberal, i would say that i believe in the second amendment __ the right to bear arms. i believe in a lot of things that a lot of americans believe, regardless of the political party. i think the people must wake up, and not be divided by the powers that be, , and make a change in our country.

host: you mention ally characteristics at the beginning, who captures that for you? caller: i would say we have a few. i would go back to john f. kennedy. he had his flaws, made many mistakes, but have the heart of the people in his mind. i would go to the present day today, and say barack obama, hhe has the heart of the people in his mind. that is the type of person that we need. we need someone responsible, who understands what the people are going through. let's talk about the affordable care act. if bush were in, many more people would have lost their homes. let's think about __ we have a present day cares about the people, cares about the needs of the people, who is making decisions now for the future.

we know the history of the present of the united states today __ 20 years from now we can look back and see what he did, made a great difference. host: the next caller from texas. caller: happy new year. george bush is my political hero, as well as abe lincoln, and martin luther king. they all believe in people's freedom and rights. they were not cowards and giving it to them, they were not trying to take it away like obama. i don't believe in obama. and the people who support obama, they do not believe in what martin luther king was for.

host: did you stick with bush during the iraq war? caller: yes. host: another one for bush. in texas, a different bush sworn in as a land commissioner. chuck from florida, your next. we're talking about political heroes, who is yours? caller: good morning, america. i would like everybody to think back to the 1992 election, and how precious ross perot was.

he was pooh_poohed by everybody when you think of the free trade agreement. we're living right now and exactly what he said would happen. he is my hero. the american people just weren't smart enough to catch on. i think ross perot would've been one of the best presidents that we would've had in this country. host: what made you think he was bright on his thoughts on trade? caller: it was obvious. he was for america. he wanted america to build have its own economy, and an economy that works __ for jobs, manufacturing, all the things

that we need. he could see that the direction of the free trade agreements that were going on would make america basically a third world country __ lower us to the standards of the rest of the world, we would all pay for it by jobs, income. he was trying to tell us that, we do not listen. host: jerry is up next. caller: hello. my hero is one i've learned about when i was in college __ milton friedman. primarily, it was about the inflation. host: what was your first experience with milton friedman? caller: and economics professor pointed out his work. i was trying to figure out what the problem was behind

inflation. later in life, when the collapse of soviet union, key __ he wrote an editorial for the "new york times" on his work, series on capitalism, and freedom. he has really been key to the united states. host: isn't someone who currently captures his ideas? caller: it has really exploded. he thoroughly brings about a number of other people. he definitely influenced reagan, thatcher __ led to a lot of economic reforms that we see around the world today. china, russia.

he brought freedom to a lot of people. host: your political hero, that is what we want to hear about. the las vegas review journal has its front_page article on harry reid. again, next tuesday, you can watch it on c_span, a five hour program on the 114 congress.

lawrence is up next. caller: my favorite is the first bush. i cannot find anyone who served both the public and private sectors. and quite frankly, if you look at the morals, ethics, and values that he brought to office __ people have always spoken highly of him __ even across ethnic lines. the bush family was well respected by hispanics in texas. when you look at history __ he was one of those common people who ascended to a great position. host: what you think about the first gulf war? caller: that is a great

question. i think if anyone wanted to see excellence in leadership, that is an example where he pulled in his political capital from all the different positions that he held in government. here line the world __ he aligned the world. host: richard from texas. caller: mine is truman and kennedy. truman because of the decision they had to make on the atomic bombs in world war ii __ he saved a lot of american lives. host: truman is one, kennedy is another. john f. kennedy? caller: yeah.

he came out of a depression. under eisenhower, i was working in construction __ all commercial construction shut down. if you wanted to work, you had to go to north dakota. he turned that all around when he came in. he did a very good job of bringing the economy back. host: let's hear from harold from wisconsin. caller: one person stole my thunder by saying harry truman. being independent though, i have two __ that is eisenhower, but truman especially. i was at war in north korea,

and he ended all that with atomic bomb. i really believe the eisenhower did a terrific job, especially interstate. host: why the highway system? caller: it's so convenient. we used to drive to florida __ now we drive to florida in two days. it made a big difference in my life. i was in the air force when truman was present at __ than eisenhower came in, it was a great time to live. reflecting, it is a good subject __ i wish you would have on the worst presidents __ i would say obama.

host: we will put on a list of topics to consider. that was harold from wisconsin. on the front page of the "washington post" __ a picture of the mayor of the district of columbia. the lead story of the "washington post" takes a look at the recent elections, republican wins, and how that will play out in the state. that is the "washington post" from this morning.

your political hero, we are interested in hearing from you in the next 20 or so minutes. it could be someone from the past, someone from the present. economists have been mentioned, politicians have been mentioned. whatever line best represents you, please call in. a couple of thoughts on twitter this morning __ one person saying it was andrew jackson. and then, john smith saying doctor ben carson is their political hero. jackson from tennessee, go ahead. caller: thank you.

my tv is turned down. racism __ that's not what is going on in america. i live in a brutal rules, small_town. i want to tell you about what is going on in america. host: before you do that, tell me who is your political hero. caller: let me tell you what is going on. bill clinton was a good person. he sold us to china. he sold us to china __ i don't care what anybody says. go back to all your corporations __ they want some free money.

host: larry from louisiana. the political heroes is the topic today. caller: mine would be thomas jefferson. he was against big government. more recently, ronald reagan. united america, instead of trying to divide it. and actually put in place __ he gave us some growth in this country that we haven't seen after the last recession. i think we could use another ronald reagan to realign this country back to the constitution. host: when did you know the thomas jefferson was a hero of yours?

caller: i started reading on him about two years ago. all live the things that he wrote down __ governing a large area with one central government, it wasn't gonna work. he stated it in many papers that i have read. and many of his quotes make a lot of sense. host: do you have a favorite writing of his? tammy, next up. caller: good morning. sir, i just want to say, i have been discriminated against over the years. a lot has to do with bad

choices that i had done. meaning __ i do not finish school. i had no education. my background __ i am poor __ i come from a poor family. it started with my children. i couldn't support them. i was struggling. i couldn't get a loan, can i get __ i couldn't get a good job. i raise my children the best i could. i was working as a cocktail waitress, and an entertainer.

host: we're talking about political heroes, tammy. is anyone able to as a hero as far as who you are? caller: since 2014, i noticed that i was getting assisted. it has been a fight. it is obama, and hillary clinton. host: thank you. rick from new york. caller: my hero is ronald reagan. number one, he rebuilt the military. it has been stripped down under obama. he had the greatest economy.

not coincidentally with tax cuts that he enacted in the early 80's. by the way, it seems to work every time that tax cuts are implemented in the u. s.. he is my political hero. host: is that some of the best captures reagan for you in the modern day? caller: let me see. potentially, it might be too soon to tell __ it looks like a new generation of republican leaders. marco rubio and had crews are certainly in his aim. there's potential there. caller: let's hear from tom. caller: definitely thomas paine.

he got us started as a country. there were others, but he captured the spirit of the revolution, and wrote about it in common sense. his work in rights of man __ that was very instrumental in getting rid of the divine right of kings in france and across europe. and also, bringing some rationalism to theeuropean scene. his rights of man spread from france all the way to the russian revolution to get rid of the aristocratic class. host: how we lead to thomas paine? caller: just general reading. i was rather shocked by some of these other comments about heroes. thomas jefferson was a slaver.

his relationship with sally hemmings can only be described as rape. andrew jackson, he inherited a lot of money. at one time, he had three slave plantations. how can this person be a hero? and reagan and bush __ ppeople are forgetting that reagan funded contra terrorists __ the white house recommends that they were terrorist, iran_contra. host: calling from idaho, hello. caller: mind would be john f kennedy. host: why so?

caller: mainly because i was a vietnam that. if they had not assassinate kennedy, i would of __ have a lot of friends to walking the earth today. host: let's try neil from alabama. caller: my political hero would be __ the rarest form of politician. my favorite quote from him is talking about the budget. host: maybe some people the audience would not know who he is. he has a building named after him here in d.c. for those who do not know, who is he.

caller: he was a senator from wisconsin. i was a kid when i saw him speak. like i said, he was the rarest of commodities. he was straightforward, told you exactly what he thought. he didn't really care if he was elected or not. host: that was neil. even though the present is finishing up his vacation, the white house putting out statements on new sanctions against north korea. this is from the white house __

if you go to the white house website, you can read those documents in relation to the white house on north korea. done under executive order, imposing additional sanctions with respect to north korea. pam is next up from washington. we are talking about political heroes.

caller: yes. first i would like to say that i have watched your show for 10 years, i have never gone through, this is very exciting. i have three heroes __ a terrorist in his youth, but when he became present in egypt, he knew he was signing his death warrant when he signed peace with israel. malcolm x. is another hero. similar kinds of circumstances. he transcended all this hatred, and realized what his spiritual path was. he also knew he was going to be killed.

the last is nelson mandela. a terrorist. all these men were fighting injustice. mandela is certainly one of the greatest leaders. also, martin luther king. what i want to say about heroes __ it is not people who balanced budget, or come up with government reform. a hero is someone who transcends __ who somehow in the pursuance of a higher truth, change their consciousness, and the willingness to embrace principles. to give up their lives, literally their lives, their family, everything for that principle __ that for me is a hero. i was losing to program, and i was really compelled to call.

i think the way people through that word around very lightly. the __ that is all i want to say. host: that was pam. we will move on to ron from missouri. caller: some people who have been political here is for me are alex jones, ron paul. people who really talk about issues. that's whether or not they are popular, they stood for what is right. __ was really an independent maverick. he has some interesting stuff, i have seen on youtube. that man was really for the people. someone else similar tried to

get a movement going. bob dole was a good representative from california. there are people in there fighting for the people, and try to get issues addressed that keep our freedoms maintained. you know, the people who run up our taxes so high __ we will never be able to pay them. it is ridiculous __ the ball and chain they are putting on the people. few people speak against it, but they are lining their pockets, paying the lobbyist, devaluing our currency, and taking jobs over to third world countries. host: you mentioned ron paul. what you think of his son, rand? caller: he is pretty good. ron paul is better, but rand

has some issues, he is a very smart man. he had a good filibuster going a while back. he is definitely a smart man, and a good patriot. certainly a good senator. maybe he will be our next present, i am really impressed with the work he has done. host: appear from __ let's hear from marie. caller: i am 88 years old, and my hero is franklin delano roosevelt. i am living on social security now thanks to him. i think __ thank him very much. host: j is joining us from atlanta, georgia.

caller: i have a couple of heros. before i get to them, i want to comment on the previously mentioned hero __ senator from illinois. he was father in law to senator becker from tennessee. most importantly, he was lbj's partner in the civil rights act. i wanted to impart that information. my heroes are way more __ the democratic senator from oregon, the democratic senator from alaska. they were the only two members of the u.s. senate who opposed

the vietnam war at the very beginning. they voted in opposition to the gulf of tonkin resolution. they stood against the crowd. they stood against the mass hysteria that was going on in the country. they stood against present johnson, who was gathering support for the war the time. obviously, we all know they proved correct in the end. they were really luminaries, and my heroes. host: josé is from new mexico. good morning. caller: hi, my name is josé. i'm calling from new mexico. my political hero is u. s. senator chavez.

he was the first hispanic senator from the united states, from new mexico. he stood up for the hispanic land grabs __ a lot of americans do not know about it. the government to grant lands away from us, but we're still here. we're still fighting for the return of our land grants. we are patriotic americans, we love our country. we fought for our country in every war. it was wrong that the government to buy lands away from us. living in poverty, we are suffering. we believe in the constitution. we believe in america. we hope one day our government will give us our land back. he was the first united states hispanic senator, and he is my hero.

host: one more call. denise, an independent. caller: good morning. i will try and save as quickly. my heroes are doctor keating, present reagan, and ben carson today. a hero to me __ i am 71 __ is someone who motivates you, and also encourages you to take charge of your life, see the opportunity, and make the american dream better for you and your children. i will make this a simple __ i married vwey young, and did not graduate from high school. a resignation with me when king

said __ give your children a better life, sieze the opportunity. everyone wants to demonstrate to the children that you can make it in america. i never felt __ it was not beyond me to clean office buildings, do what you have to do. you can make it in america. the american dream is for you. if you want a company, want to be wealthy, work for it. host: that was denise, or last call on your political hero. we're going to change topics __

moving to immigration, and what you can expect from the next congress. mark krikorian and frank sharry will join us in a discussion. then, in news about data breaches, we will learn about the government's role protecting you, the consumer. this, as "washington journal" continues after this. ♪ >> $.50 cities tour takes book tv and __ the u. s. cities tour

takes book tv and "american history tv" around the country. here, from austin, texas. >> this is the private suite of lyndon b johnson and the first lady. this is private, not open to the public. you're only seeing it because of c_span special access. vips coming to the space, just as they did in lyndon b. johnson's days. the remarkable thing about the space is that it is a living, breathing artifact. it has not changed since johnson died. there is a document in this room signed by the

then_architects of the nation saying that nothing could change. >> we are on the 100 block of congress avenue in austin __ to my left is the colorado river. this is an important site because it is where waterloo __ austin's predecessor __ was. i am standing at about the spot where the harold cavin was. this is where lamarr was staying when they got word of a buffalo herd. congress avenue was not in avenue, but a muddy ravine. the men jumped on their horses, and stuff their belts with pistols. lamarr shot this enormous

buffalo __ he went to the top of the hill where the capital is, and said this is where the seat of the new empire should be. >> watch these events on c_span 3. >> "washington journal" continues. host: joining us for discussion on immigration is mark krikorian. also, mark sharry. guest: i do not know of congress will tackle it to the ground. i do not think that in the end you will see actual legislation signed by the presidents.

there's too deep of a golf. the president has poisoned the waters with his unilateral actions. with the republican senate and the house, there is likelihood of bills being passed. whether the president signs him, seems unlikely to me. host: what makes you think he will not find them? guest: it will not be what he wants. for example, the e hiring system __ i think it will be one of the first things the president will not sign, unless there is some broad amnesty as

part of the deal. he is not opposed to it, but i do not think he likes it. he will use as a bargaining chip. host: what do we see from this administration? guest: i think we will see a lot of noise, but not a lot of congress. a comprehensive reform __ the republican slow walked it to death. they forfeited their opportunity to stamp it. and the most of congress will be filled with republicans trying to undo what he did in the executive action. host: a long_term copperheads of report, do you believe that?

guest: no. bader wanted to pass immigration reform in the house, and made a number of moves, but he cannot get enough support to move it forward. as a result, the legislative initiative __ again the best window that has open in 25 years was shot. now, the president acted. host: do you buy the argument? guest: it is both true and false. it is true that president's have pushed the envelope, but nothing comparable to what the president has done. if it goes through, about 3

million are formally people __ nothing like that has ever happened in the past. and, in past incidents when relatively small amounts of people were given work permits __ that was almost always in relation to a foreign crisis. it was more part of the president's foreign_policy. nothing like what he did now saying, congress is not done what i want, i will do anyway. the question will be much of this coming year __ a fight about the constitution. who is in charge of making laws in the united states.

do we have more of frankly of venezuela situation __ where the present rules by decree, and congress is an advisory body. or, is congress deciding what happens. host: a constitutional argument. guest: it may even go to the supreme court. every present since eisenhower has used executive action in the area of immigration policy. ronald reagan and george bush both. it was not controversial back then. the senate voted on some measures that did not pass __ reagan did it through executive action.

i think this has more to do about obama, and republicans not liking that he is taking it initiatives. i think he is on firm constitutional footing. host: before we continue __ i want to ask you to join the conversation. if you're here in the u. s. illegally, aand want to make her thoughts known on this topic __ call in. you have 20 state suing against him __ is that out of the ordinary. guest: it is. at some point, we imagine there would be bipartisan legislation __ because republicans blocked reform __ the energy to try and fix our broken immigration system has gone elsewhere. you have states taken action.

the federal government taking action through executive. because of the gridlock in congress, the desire to modernize our immigration system, it is not perfect to do in this piecemill way. host: one of the arguments is whether states can have the right to argue against the president. guest: that is something that will have to be litigated. it is 25 states now that have joined this lawsuit __ something unprecedented. this is such an important matter, the spring court could go either way. it really depends on how justice kennedy feels that morning. i'm not going to make any predictions about how it will turn out. it is an unprecedented challenge.

the problem here is not that there is this powerful groundswell of public demand for action on immigration. the problem is this president has acted in ways that are contrary to the law __ obamacare, environmental policy. what we see in immigration is just part of a pattern of lawless behavior. he was able to get away with it when congress was split. it will be much more harder and contentious over the next two years. it will be __ like the chinese say __ interesting times. host: before we go to callers, let's reiterate what the president did.

guest: work permits. when he announced two years ago with amnesty __ what is called deferred action for __ essentially expanding that to the parents of a legal citizens, that involves more than not being deported. it is not a green card because you do not get citizenship after a period of time, but it is green card like. the goal, of course, of people on frank's side will be to upgrade that too green card premium, if you will. but for all intensive purposes, those people now have de facto, permanent status for the rest of their lives. host: aand, ultimately, what is wrong with green card light? guest: because it is illegal, in my opinion, to give it to millions of people. the whole core of this debate

is not really about amnesty. it is about how do we make sure there isn't another amnesty in the future. and that is where the key problem is. nobody trust the political class to follow through on its promises tomorrow if they were in amnesty today. guest: well, three quarters of american people want congress to pass immigration reform. changes to our legal immigration system going forward, so people can come legally rather than a legally. and then we have to deal, humanely, with the 11 million undocumented immigrants. that is the goal still, but congress has blocked it. and the president is doing everything he can with his executive authority. at the end of the day, though, congress has to do its job. we have been forcing our way out of the problem for 25 years

and it hasn't worked. the fact is we have deported more people than ever, we have higher fences than ever, we spend more on border security than all other defense combined. and it isn't working. why? because you need all legs of that stool to work together. that is what we need. host: we will get some calls and. fort wayne, indiana. your up first. caller: yes, i would like both frank and the other guy to comment on __ this is completely destroying the black community. the black community right now _ unemployment is high, there is no work for the youth in the city. the only job they have is drugs. i mean, it is not sensible. it is stupidity.

if both could comment on this, i would appreciate it. guest: well, i think the problems for african_americans in the united states is not related to immigration. there's a history of segregation and slavery and discrimination that is going to require lots of work in terms of civil rights legislation and educational support, etc. the idea that immigration is the main cause, i just don't buy it. in fact, in most cities where there are more immigrants, african american unemployment is lower. i do think that america is still not __ has still not dealt with tthe challenge of treating african americans in america as truly equals. but to think that immigration is the main cause is not true.

guest: immigration is part of the reason we are seeing the problems, the struggles yyou see in black communities. it is not the whole reason. you cannot say, he is the reason i don't have a job. that sort of thing is inappropriate. there is no question that the progress of black americans stalled when immigration started increasing. that young people, especially minority hispanic born americans, aas well as african_americans, the first to suffer wage reduction or job loss because of excessive immigration. i have spoken at some urban league events, and i was at an event here in washington. this was a gathering of urban league chapter heads __ prominent people from all over the country. and i think a guy from la stood up and said, look, i am for comprehensive immigration reform. but, he said, we all have to

acknowledge that whenever one of us goes on to a radio show aand immigration is the subject, everybody who calls in his outraged by this immigration policy. where is essentially the government is giving preference to not just foreigners, but illegal foreigners over americans. the only problem here, it seems to be __ ppolitically speaking __ is that is contempt and anger on the part of black americans about our lawless immigration policy. it doesn't have a constructive outlet bbecause the black political only to basically take depositions for granted and is allied with the pro_amnesty unlimited immigration side. host: a quick response or. guest: we are just an orderly immigration. in fact, one of the biggest things that would __ rresult

from immigration __ comprehensive immigration would be a level playing field. everyone hired has to be legal, or you would really come down on the employer. that shift __ instead of the race to the bottom that we see in the workplace __ yyou will have a workplace we have it much, much more even playing field. that will advantage american workers, as well as immigrant workers. guest: that way, immigrant workers could legally take american jobs. host: up next __yes, i think it is so disingenuous when i hear people call it the president did amnesty. what he did was prosecutorial discretion, which he has every right to do. here in san antonio, we just

had a law go into effect in texas where people cannot talk on the phone where they are driving __ when they are driving. the government here is not prosecuting people for 30 days. that is called prosecutorial discretion, which is basically what the president did. guest: no, prosecutorial discretion. and then there's what the president did. the president issued prosecutorial discretion years ago, telling immigration authorities whom they may arrest and whom they may not. basically exempting almost all illegal immigrants ffrom the operation of immigration law. he does, in fact, have the constitutional authority to do that, as bad as a policy as that might be. what the president announced in november was work permits, social security numbers, aand drivers license __ tthis is

legalization. it is not tthe full goldplated legalization that frank wants, but it is legalization. prosecutorial discretion is on a copper statue for speeding, sees you are not a criminal, you are respectful towards him __ and he says, okay ma'am, i will let you go this time. that is prosecutorial discretion. what the president has done is the cop stopping you and say, here is a permit that lets you speed anytime you want the rest of your life. host: what you think of that interpretation? gguest: i think it is a rather exaggerated take on what the president has done. the authority is rooted in the president, as the chief oof the country.

it is like a big_city cop saying, let's go after the bank robbers and folks who do breaking an entry rather than the jaywalkers. every law enforcement agency in the country has to make those choices. it is about time the administration has made the stresses. they're still going to deport people, they're still going to enforce the law. but instead of picking a mom who has been up here 15 years aand ribbing at family apart, it is let's go after the gang banger, the drug dealer who has been committing a crime. host: you have heard from frank sharry of america's voice. >> we are a pro_immigration reform group. we exist to support comprehensive immigration reform, wwhich will modernize our immigration system that

makes us a nation of immigrants and a nation of love. we are funded privately. host: mister mark krikorian, tell us a little bit about your organization. guest: we are think tank __ we examined the various impacts of immigration on the united states __ economic, fiscal, population, law enforcement, all the rest of it. we are also funded privately by foundations, but different than the ones of frank's organization. and we, you know, a kind of a mammal running between the legs of the dinosaur. all of the big organizations in our society are on frank's side __ the aclu, the chamber of commerce, etc. there are a handful of groups that try to make the skeptical

case for immigration, and we are a think tank in that party. host: chicago is next. todd, go ahead. caller: good morning. a few minutes ago, mister sharry said that we are deporting more people than ever. i would like to know if that is true, and if that perception has changed. if so, when and who changed it? guest: i suspect this is a gentleman who is familiar with mark krikorian's work. look, deportations have been ramped up to record levels. president obama passed a 2 million mark in deportations. they have been deporting an average of 400,000 people a year. it is down this year due to a number of things, mostly redirecting resources to the border. but the fact is __ that is why, for many on the left, the

president has been called the deport or in chief. now, why did president obama ddeport so many immigrants? obviously, that strategy worked in the senate, or coverage of immigration reform passed in 2013 on a bipartisan basis. but the house slow walked it __ and as a result, we are left with a dysfunctional immigration system. and the president decided that we should focus on the bad actors, rather than parents with american kids. guest: the record duplications now is a crock. i'm sorry. the fact is that duplications rose steadily through the clinton and bush administrations. there was a consistent allocation of resources to

increase the capacity to detain and deport people. that increase stops the day obama became president. and what happened since is that they have essentially cooked the books. what they have done __ the current numbers are simply not comparable tto past deportation numbers because what they have done is there counting people they have caught at the border, who were not counted in deportation statistics before, as deportation. what they do with the handsome over to ice, and the next day they get them back and say __ iit is a deportation. they are playing games with the numbers. the reality is, this year, not only has deportations declined, but deportations oof criminals have declined. and deportations of the interior __ actual illegals in the country, rather than at the border __ to have declined by more than 50%.

host: so in 2013 __ guest: there are a couple of issues there. number one is the cooking the books i'm talking about. the immediate border crosses are counted as deportations, but the other thing is many of the non_criminals __ you have to put quotes around non_criminals because their people that have not yet been convicted __ and i have talked to immigration agency people about this __ ccriminals who avent actually graduated to get a felony conviction. guest: this is what makes politics so hard these days. it is clear that a think tank has documented the rise of duplications, but mark says they cooked the books. there's really no solid case for that argument, but because it doesn't fit the narrative

of the president forcing the law, they have to come up with this argument. the fact is that400,000 people a year has been deported. period. families have been ripped apart. we work on these cases, we know the people were affected by this. what they have done is prioritized border enforcement over interior enforcement. that is, again, a wise use of resources. let's get the pieces were coming across now, rather than the people who have lived to 20 years. host: artemis is in kansas city, missouri. go ahead. caller: hi. listening to the conversation, my questioning comment has changed little bit. mister sharry __ yyou say it is 11 million people. i think that everybody knows that is a bogus number. it is much, much higher.

i think it is like 60 million wwhen you count the so_called illegal immigrants, as well, that have been allowed into this country for the last 24 years __ 25 years, now. isn't that is giving away the country to __ to foreign invaders? and isn't that treason? guest: i suspect we are on different sides of this. look, immigration has been a defining feature of america since its inception. and it is going to continue to be a defining feature. we are one of the new world countries that has prospered tremendously by the infusion of immigrants from around the world who come to america and made it the strongest country and the largest economy and one of the most dynamic entrepreneurial places in the world. so i'm a big supporter of

immigration. a legal, orderly process where we admit people to this country who work hard and build a better society. that has been our history, and that will be our future. i don't see it as giving away the country, i see it as building a better america. guest: immigration worked for us in an earlier age. our national adolescent, if you will. even then, it was very tumultuous. but we made it work. we are a grown_up country now. mature, modern, postindustrial society with a knowledge_based economy. it is not so much that the immigrants are different or that they are doing something that is bad, it is that it is bad policy because it is a 19th century immigration policy that is inconsistent with our 21st century needs. host: from ralph. riverdale, illinois. good morning.

caller: good morning. i became a citizen through the amnesty of president reagan. the one guy is trying to muddle up __ when i became a citizen, all you had to bring was a letter from your country of origin. and the process you right there and then. so, now they are __ why didn't they do this to president reagan back then? guest: well, i'm not sure what his question is, but it seems to me that the amnesty was much easier back then. that less documentation, what have you, was required. and that is to. the result is something like one out of four people that were amnesty got that amnesty fraudulently. you had people coming in saying that they were farmworkers, and they were asked by the immigration people __ back then

it was the ins __ aand they said, would you pick? oh, i think watermelons. so they had some fun with them. how tall were the ladders to pick watermelons from the trees? and they said, oh, pretty so. and they gave them a green card. anything you are going to do in immigration is going to have massive fraud. my concern is that the unilateral amnesties, that the president is announcing __ aand frankly the system __ is ridden with fraud. there was an anti_fraud unit with an ice that has basically been idled. we have a whole interview on a website. it is, you know, fraud is just not all that interesting to this administration. host: what is the best way to

cut back on fraud? guest: well, you basically need examiners to be much more careful, much more deliberate. for instance, this president's amnesty for children who came, or claim to have, anyway. the vast majority of those people were never interviewed by immigration officials. so we have no idea if it was a 39_year_old claiming to be 17 when he came here. they used documentation to prove their presence in the united states. they were able to present things like xbox and playstation records. you know, videogame activity and this kind of thing. the core concern, the core reason you have this kind of fraud is that there are strong political pressures to move things along. whether that visa processing __ is visa processing and our embassies overseas. whether it is at the border.

the pressure is always __ look the other way. host: mister sharry, tthe process. guest: look, every time you process people, there are bad guys. to suggest __ the gentleman who called __ 3 million people came forward under a program that came under ronald reagan, those people have been remarkably successful at assimilating into the american society. then_president reagan used executive authority to expand the number of people protected. contrary to what congress wanted, they used executive authority to give work permits to family members. exactly what president obama is doing. the act in 2012 is for dreamers, people who grew up in america. but there is no line for them to get into.

this is how dysfunctional our immigration system is. these 11 million people __ they must not have wanted to wait in line. there is no line for them to get into! iif there was a post office where you could get your papers, there would be 11 million people in that line. what president obama has done for the dreamers in 2012, and now for parents of american kids, is the chance to come forward and prove they have been here for five years. to prove that they have been otherwise law_abiding or self_supporting. make sure that they provide background checks. and they can live in this country legally, work legally, and the in this country without fear of being separated from their american children. that, to me, is an american sense solution. host: at the same time we talk about this, the state of california is offering licenses to immigrants.

does this public at issue? guest: it clearly does. when states get driver's licenses __ technically speaking, drivers permits __ when states do this, they are formally incorporating these illegal immigrants into the institutions of our society. because you need to have id in order to function in an mmodern society. and the irs gives illegal immigrants something that looks like a social security number, even though it is technically not, but it really is. and what this is is a kind of de facto amnesty. it is kind of a step_by_step de facto amnesty. if you're going to do in amnesty, you need to do it. if you are not going to do it, you need to enforce the law. and what we are doing is kind of something __ and i think frank would even agree with this __ something in between.

pretending to have a law that limits immigration, but not really making sure that those legal strictures are actually enforced. host: state_level efforts like california, how does that __ guest: like i was referring to before, states are tired of waiting for washington to ask. so the state of california is saying, look, we have 3 million people in our state were not authorized to drive. that causes public safety concerns, insurance problems __ when there are accidents, sometimes people take off. this is a smart measure to say, if they're going to be here, going to be working, the federal government is not going to do anything about it. we are going to make sure that they are iinsured and can drive legally. many states in the country, particularly blue states, you are going to have people that work authorizations from the federal government, drivers authorization from the state

government __ and the beginning of a life of dignity and equality for immigrants who are american. unfortunately, the best approach would be congress to act on a bipartisan basis, but in the absence, states are going to step in. host: hhere is steven from manassas, virginia. caller: hi, how are you doing? first i just want to say to what you just said. i want you to come down to my job site. i guarantee you it might change his mind because everywhere you look, tthere are latinos, people from all different backgrounds. mainly latinos working in every aspect of the construction industry. and this has been going on since back, way back in reagan. they are not just doing jobs that, you know, americans don't want to do. they are doing every job you can think of. and it has a cost to our country, number one. number two, a lot of these

problems aare elected officials. not on us. the issue of voting, for instance. if you think that illegals in this country are not voting, you're kidding yourself. guest: yes, the evidence of immigrants in the country without papers voting just doesn't exist. it is a crock. this whole voter suppression effort is not about keeping unauthorized immigrants. from voting it is about keeping minorities and others from voting. in terms of the construction industry, it is an areain which immigration boils the water the most. construction work is an aerial that people are interested in. workers are legal, employers have to follow a mandatory verification system.

and there is a way for people who have a legitimate need for immigration labor to go ahead with it. that is the level playing field i was talking about. so, we need reform to deal with the very problems you're talking about so that everyone is following the law and everyone is held accountable. guest: i am glad to hear that frank admits that construction is not a job that americans want to. because that is the kind of storyline that is out there. the fact is that virtually every large occupation that has immigrants in it is dominated by american_born workers. when frank says employers who have a legitimate need will be able to get people from abroad, he really is talking about unlimited immigration. 6 billion people will not come here, but no numerical limits on immigration. if you are an employer, your

legitimate need is __ i do not want to pay this american. i want to pay $.50 last to a foreigner. so there is no limiting principle to that need. and you will see the same thing that has happened __ that is happening in much of construction happen in every other construction if employers have, as president bush wanted and frank wants, unlimited number of people __ willing employer gets to hire any willing immigrants worker from abroad. that means there won't be any americans left in construction, or nursing, or much of anything else. guest: i am not for unlimited immigration __ gguest: give me a number. what is it __ guest: i'm happy to do that.

i would like to express my own opinions rather than have you inform me. the bill had a limited number of workers that could be admitted, and special permission for limits of no more than 20,000 construction workers a year tto acknowledge the special situation that the gentleman raised. when we supported legislation that would have actually constrained the abilities of employers to bring foreign workers to work in construction, it just shows that your characterization of my views are, should we say, outside the bounds of truth. host: paul. go ahead. caller: yes. there's about 32,800,000 illegals in the united states.

they are specialists on the computers. i can trace 99% of the democrats __ what they're trying to do is get enough democrats to chime in __ illegals, that is __ abroad. then there are going to do this one way or another. guest: gosh. let me see if i can draw something out. one of the concerns among republican opponents of immigration reform is that if we give people papers, and they come over many many years, can learn english and pass bbackground checks __ they can eventually become citizens.

and because republicans have been so hostile to immigrants, they will end up voting for democrats. one of the arguments among house republicans to black reform is __ why would you give citizenship to an eventual democrat? if we can cannot compete for a vast demographic, then what can a party only? george w. bush 140% or more of the latino vote __ won 40% or more of the latino vote. republicans are scared that this latino community will become mostly democrats. on the other hand, if they don't, the real growth is coming from 18_year_olds who are eligible to vote and were born here. their parents are often the folks most affected. the republicans have only one choice, which is to deal with this issue and compete, rather than to say, let's keep them out of status and out of america in hopes that it will

benefit the republicans. guest: i think it is reasonable to address the first point the caller made. the first point is that there are now 32 million illegal immigrants. there are 11 million, maybe 13 million. this is not immigrants, this is illegal immigrants. people themselves were illegally in the united states. if it were more than 12 million or 13 million, you would see it in the death records, the birth records. in other words, there would be a demographic consequence. the first thing that people need to keep in mind is that illegal immigrants are, specifically, 11,000,000 to 13,000,000. it is not exact, but the range doesn't go above at or below it. the political point is important. the fact is that __ immigrants are not voting democrat because republicans are mean to them.

immigrants vote democrat because the democratic party reflects their deeply held legitimate political views. survey after survey after survey spells out the broad political views of immigrants, without talking about partisan. without asking about political affiliation. they support higher taxes and more government services. they are in favor of gun control. they are in favor of environmental regulation. they are big government democrats. it is not just hispanic immigrants, it is european immigrant, it is middle eastern immigrants. now things have changed in the midterms we just had. asians actually slightly voted in favor of republicans, it looks like. that kind of thing is going to happen. and republicans have a chance, i think, at outreach tto immigrants. not so much immigrant families, but grandchildren and children.

they have a possibility of making a case, if they want to make a case, of april worker policy. the problem is that every year, we are admitting 1 million more people. and the political problem republican spaces that you cannot admit 1 million people a year losing the majority of them politically, regardless of what your immigration policy is, and figure you are going to make it up in volume. if the republican conservatives do not limit future immigration, you know, there is no hope for a small government conservatism. which is something that frank is probably okay with. now, that is not an immigration policy issue, but it is a real issue. when frank says, they go along with doubling immigration and amnesty to all the immigrants __ than they will be able to compete for immigrant votes. it is just not true. host: let me take a call.

harold, pennsylvania. go ahead. caller: yes, i have been doing my job for 38 years. now, i can't get a job. i will give you an example, i was just at a job in the hospital. working for the community, supposedly. four days later, they were back and we were down the road. i got four days of work. how do i know they were illegal is because the hospital is complaining that they get social security numbers that they can't verify. this is just one small company. they are all exporting these people.

they live right here in our country. as far as prosecuting, it is selective prosecution. if we prosecute our own american citizens for minor things, don't let these people come in and destroy the country. guest: well, the fact is that one of the most dynamic aspects of american economy is the fact that we have american employers and american workers who are joined by immigrant workers. the fact is that the immigrant workers are attracted to america __ basically two different categories. at the high end, because we don't produce enough stem graduates who are able to do enough of the saints and technology __ science and technology jobs that we demand, and agriculture work.

what you are talking about and construction is the most controversial area __ wwe need to have an immigration system that provides for a level playing field. and workplace fairness. and employer fairness. that is why we want reform. you are right, there are a lot of people who are very upset. we would love to see reform that creates a much better system. guest: what mass immigration does, even if every single person was legal, it __ it is not so much that there are unscrupulous employers .. fact is that what we are doing this for nudging these occupations because immigrant workers are

willing to work cheaper and except working conditions and benefits that are less or less stringent. with this sort of points to is the kind of thing you have seen in the gulf states __ saudi arabia and the united arab emirates __ were a whole occupation becomes for an iced. and that __ foreignized. you see that increasingly in parts of the country where there are lots of immigrants. that teenagers would more people's lives for extra money disappears. this isn't because americans are incapable of mourning lawns, it becomes the expectation that you need mexicans to mow your lawn. it is degrading, both to the

immigrants and to americans. host: to both of you, this is a viewer who says great britain and germany are currently reevaluating the immigration policies. should we learn from their mistakes? first of all, what is going on? guest: well, in the united kingdom, there has been the rise of the far right party that has focused on immigration. immigration tops the polls. it is a little different because the main concernis the fact that in the european union, you have the free movement of labor. three have people from romania and poland, etc. going to the uk as part of that open labor agreement. and it is causing a lot of controversy. and it may cause the conservative party to rethink its membership in the european union. in germany, you have some protests.

some progress through think there is an islamicization process that is going on. minister merkel jjust give a speech that this is exaggerated and so forth. i think where we need to look for models is not to uk or germany. we need to look at places like canada and australia, which are new world countries that __ canada has the most pro_immigration policies in the world. it also has the lowest unemployment world of any major industrial country. and uses immigration to see a national development strategy. you could contrast that to the fact that we cannot even let in high skilled workers in apple numbers to fuel the tech industry in america. microsoft had to open a research and development plant in vancouver because canadian

immigration policies allow them to aattract the bbest and the brightest. guest: it is happening in sweden and a number of other countries. there is a dynamic and immigration that exists here, as well. and that is that immigration is not a left_ right issue, it is an up_ down issue. the aclu, etc., are for high levels of immigration, legalization of immigrants who are here, lose enforcement for the future. as opposed to public opposition. this is an up down issue, not a left right issue. the elite insistence on a week

immigration policy is creating, frankly, a real demand. he has in the uk independence party growing by leaps and bounds precisely because all of the elite political institutions have formed a kind of cartel in favor of high levels of immigration. host: here is cedric. midland, texas. caller: mister sharry is absolutely wrong. as an african_american at the texas border, i can understand what mass immigration will do. we constantly are paying more in our school systems, supporting poor children of immigrants. our hospital system __ our taxes are constantly going up. all across texas, sales tax constantly going up. we had a booming economy.

i believe our unemployment rate is 3.2%. it might have gone up because of a drop in oil prices lately, but our costs are constantly going up. guest: it is a common argument against immigrants __ and mark's group makes it all the time. the issue of payment of taxes versus use of services, the fact is that over and immigrants lifetime, they pay more in taxes than they use in services. and that will lead to huge infusion of tax compliance. the fact is that there estimates as high as 45 billion over the next five years of increased tax compliance. from our point of view, we need immigration reform so that there is more tax compliance, not only from immigrants, but from employers. as the immigration reform bill

that passed in the senate, it it would have legalized people here, it would have cracked down on employers who hire illegally. it was a crackdown __ from our point of view, reform will increase tax compliance, reduce the deficit, and grow the economy. look, it is true that not everybody wins in the same way. high school dropouts in america do suffer modest negative effects from immigration. the way to do with that is to not collapse immigration. it is to, obviously, educate our own. guest: when you think about it, how can a modern society with a highly developed welfare state and high levels of government spending and other services benefit from importing high school dropouts? you can't. it is simply impossible.

look, tthe average family of four __ headed by someone with out a high school degree __ that family of four ggets $30,000 plus each year from the taxpayer, in excess of what they pay in taxes. in effect, each family of four headed by a high school dropout gets a bmw every year from the government, the equivalent, if you will. you cannot make that up by importing more high school dropouts. now, when frank says that amnesty would increase tax compliance and result in more tax things. she is right. there is no question about that. when immigrants get legalized, the tax compliance goes up some. legalizing illegal immigrants actually cost an enormous amount of money to the taxpayer. there may be reasons to do it otherwise.

i'm not opposed to it, in principle, but let's not lie to ourselves about how this is a win_win for everybody. it will cost an enormous amount of money. host: sherry in connecticut, go ahead. caller: hi. i just want to ask a question and make a point at the end. i don't know, either one of them could answer the question. how would the government determine how long the illegals have been in the country in order for them to access their benefits from the program that president obama has, you know, so that they can have access to with illegal immigrants getting jobs and green card, whatever you want to call them? also, what happens if they don't comply or if they don't __ you know __ pass a background check that is required? what happens to them? do they get deported, or do they stay in the shadows?

guest: well, as far as how the government is going to determine whether the people have been here five years or not, some of this is common sense. there may be government records. they will present utility bills. and, like i said, they might present xbox records or internet records. some of which will be real, some will be fake. the __ the other question, i think, is probably more important. if there is a legalization program __ whatever it is __ what about the people who apply and fail? first of all, for the president's previous amnesty, almost nobody failed. there was well over 97%, i think, approval of all the cases. so, basically they are just rubberstamping them.

or their turning down the people whose name is mickey mouse. you know, obvious fraud. but however amnesty is run, some percentage are not going to qualify. and what happens? what would have happened in the bill the senate bill that frank was for __ is that everybody else who doesn't qualify gets to stay anyway. that's what it amounts to. and amnesties can only work if the people who apply for qualify, and the people who don't are removed from the united states. they come into the office, they're going to tell them whether they got it or not, and if you didn't get it, here is the busted airplane. guest: as you can tell, mark likes to use the word amnesty. the way his group to find it is that anything is not mass deportation is amnesty. we either deport everyone, or

it is amnesty __ in their worldview. the idea that people can come forward, apply, and get work permits legally in this country after they pass background checks, increased tax compliance is something that i think most americans are supportive. those are some really good questions __ how do you prove you have been here and what happened to don't qualify? the way it really works is that most people go to lawyersand to churches and community groups __ the people who are not going to qualify essentially get screened out at that level. but you do have to make it safe for people to apply so that they come forward in order to have a successful program. obviously, if they encounter someone who has a criminal conviction, they're going to use the information and use it to enforce the law. and those people who don't qualify are subject to deportation. host: oone more call. the democrats line. hi, go ahead.

caller: good morning and thank you for the program. it is very interesting. i'm a subscriber to the television, you know, kind of eexpensive. i would like to have about three minutes. i will tell you a very interesting story about myself. and having been a son of an immigrant. i am 75 years old. my __ my father always lived with the idea of that, you know,his whole land was stolen from them. let's call them __ them, okay? because his roots were from mexico. and through this idea of, you know, empire and globalization and the whole bit __ typically

republicans __ and i don't want to be political, but i will talk about history, okay? i would like to call attention to the idea of humanity and euro centrist mentality. the euro centrist mentality says, yes, we'll use guns, we'll use castles, and will take over and, you know, what it amounts to is that you make people behave how they want them to behave. host: so, now that you have put the historical perspective out there, what would you llike our guests to address? caller: what you do is you create globalization, you create all these giant corporations that have a lot of

leverage to keep people from voting because they get so tired of it and they even get scared of it. because i have seen in the polls __ i have seen where people, you know, have to stand out there a long time. host: okay, thank you, caller. to finish up, both of you suggested that you are not sure how much further congress can go on this issue. if nothing is done on this issue this or, was something is done in 2016? guest: i think that will be the next window for immigration reform, in 2016. remember that mitt romney was really punished by some immigration voters. i suspect 2016 will be a rerunof 2012 on steroids, where latino and asian vvoters will turn on the republican party.

host: good something on a small scale, say border security, be something to settle on between republicans and democrats? guest: i don't think so. i think much of the wrangling will be trying to undo the president's lawless amnesty. because the budget expires in february, so there will be a lot of contention over that. and i think the republicans are likely, eventually, to pass security measures. it is more than just the mexican border. but enforcement related measures probably will emerge from congress. the president probably won't sign them. now, what he might signiis increases in workers. i think this is a bad idea, a whole subject for another show. but the whole republican leadership basically detests __ and is pushing for more of those kind of workers.

i wouldn't bet on it, but it is possible. host: we'll have both of you back at some time to talk of these issues. you heard from mark krikorian, the executive director of the center for immigration studies. and mark sherry, the executive director of america's voice. again, plenty of information for you to look at. to both of you generally, thank you for your time. coming up, we'll talk about security. particularly the security of your data. john breyault of the national consumers league. "washington journal" continues after this.

>> this sunday on "q&a", the president and ceo of the national council of moraga. on the state of hispanics in america, immigration reform, and her compelling personal story. >> i had a great privilege of experiencing the american dream here in this country. born in kansas, my parents actually came to this country iin the very early 1950's. the very early 1950's. my parents came from mexico with no money and very little education. my dad had an eighth grade education, my mom a fifth_grade education. and yet they believed in the promise of this country, and they were seeking better opportunities for their children. and so they worked really hard

and sacrificed, as so many latinos and hispanics have done in this country, because they wanted that better future for their children. so they really taught us important values tthat have been our guide for our lives __ for me and my siblings. my six brothers and sisters. they taught us the importance of family, faith, of community, hard work, sacrifice, honesty, integrity __ all of those were important values tthat they shared with us. >> sunday night at 8 o'clock eastern and pacific. the 114th congress gals in this tuesday at noon eastern. watch live coverage of the house on c_span, and the senate live on c_span2. track the gop led congress and have your say on the c_span

networks, c_span radio, and c_span.org. new congress, best access. on c_span. host: joining us now is john breyault. tell us about your organization. guest: sure. the national consumers league was founded in 1989. what i do is protecting consumers from fraud. we work with a wide variety of organizations. we are one of the only organizations in washington that advocates for consumers, but also for workers.

host: we hear the term data breaches, what does that term means you? guest: consumers are sharing more amounts of their data thanks to our interconnected economy. what we've seen in the past year is increasing incidence of mega breaches __ the compromise at ttarget, home depot, j.p. morgan. more recently, hacks at sony pictures. the hack at chick_fil_a that we just heard about. hacks are creating a cybercrime economy, that feed on the overflow of breach data. host: are the federal standards

for companies on how they present data? guest: no. for particular types of data, there are laws that apply. for example, financial data, healthcare data. generally, when it comes to other types of data __ it may fall under section 5 of the trade commission act, but even that is under question now at the courts. generally, consumers do not have much protection when it comes to the data. host: if there is a breach, is there some sort of federal law that says the consumer must know there was a breach. guest: no. there is no notification standard. what we have is a patchwork across the states of their own data breach standard.

chances are, you will get notified, but what prompts that breach varies from state to state. what we are calling for for our congressional agenda for data agenda is a national datareach notification standard. host: hhow does it work in california? guest: there are things like private right of action in california. quick notification required in california. we think those are proconsumer parts of what we hope will be a strong national data breach notification standard.

host: our guest is john breyault. if you would ask him a question, call in, tweet us thoughts, or send us an email. if i'm a company, and there is a national requirement telling me i have to give notification, i have to tell everybody, my computers were hacked. guest: i think it is important for companies to do that. number one, it helps the company's. also, it gives other companies who have similar software know that there is a vulnerability. maybe i is a company have to incur cost, but the benefits to

me, knowing that everyone else has to notify as well, and the protection against from that, outweighs any costs that they may incur. host: as the 114 congress meets next week, which area __ which panels __ who is directly responsible for this issue? guest: right now the only federal agency that is taking a lead on this in terms of going after data breach incidents, and companies who may not be protecting the data the way we may like is this ftc. the ftc is definitely one of the lead agencies. there are others that take elian this __ the department of justice.

in congress, we are hoping that with incoming republican majority, that we continue to see progress on this issue. there may have been some problems around information sharing __ civil liberties issues __ but this is really a bipartisan issue. after the target breach, we saw a number of hearings on this. we are hoping that continues to be interest in this in congress. we hope there will be. we think there will be more breaches. as an organization, we will continue to be out there talking about the impact that breaches have on consumers. the sites are real, and the impact us in real ways.

caller: good morning, gentlemen. why want to say is __ i feel that a lot of these attacks on cyber security is coming from the fact that many people around the world have a lot of contempt against us. i do not see them decreasing, i see them increasing even more. oppressed people always find a way to overcome being taken advantage of __ throughout history has been like that. i heard a guy from arizona the you talked to earlier talking not guest workers __ as soon as they get off work, there are police there waiting to call them illegal aliens. host: was here __ let's hear

from diana. caller: i've been following this issue since about 2011. in many doctors office, data is not being protected __ ppersonnel are not trained. despite being trained, there are no resources, i have not been hired. basically, it is the unwillingness of business leaders to work with the government and protect america. even since 9/11, chemical factories __ they have proven that they will not enforce their laws. they will not share their data. you mentioned data __ the

companies do not even call and tell you that they have been breach. you have to find out on the news. host: have you ever had a personal data breach? caller: yes, it j.p. morgan, home depot. guest: i am glad that george and diana brought up important issues. responding to george __ i think certainly the issue of state_sponsored cyber terrorism is one that we are all concerned about. we have seen incidents, allegedly the north korean hack being of sony. iranians going up against ramco. the resources that are state_sponsored hacking can put behind it is significant.

two diana's point about doctors offices and what companies can do, and their unwillingness to work with the government __ points to a wider issue. companies often feel worried about reaching out to the government. they're worried about liability that they may incur. what we have seen his many companies that have attempted to look for safe harbor. if they notify, work proactively when there is a breach, they will be protected from liability. i think are point __ per point about experience, j.p. morgan is very well taken. chances are you have been victim of a breach. it is practically impossible to find someone in this country

who has not been affected. i'm a big fan, as she is, of krebs on security. i do not think we should be relying on the media to let us when these breaches happen. i think companies to be faster when reaching out to consumers want have been affected. they should be protecting data better. right now they are not incentives for companies to take more seriously data. caller: good morning. this issue is very unique in south carolina. i believe we were the lucky state __ the first state in the united states to be breached. you mentioned earlier that california was the first state

to help protect their people. is anything you recommend uniquely for south carolina? guest: data breaches affect consumers no matter what state they are in. i think consumers can take steps to better protect their data. number one, make sure you religiously check your bank account, and check for suspicious charges. number two, mixture and pull your credit report regularly. you can get that for free. look for any suspicious accounts that may have been created in your name that you can dispute. make sure you take basic cyber hygiene practices into account.

do not click on suspicious attachments, suspicious links. keep your operating system up to date. install those patches as you are notified about them. if you take those steps, you can reduce your risk. unfortunately, there's no silver bullet, but you can decrease your risk. host: rick is up next. caller: if i can just add another personal protection __ approximately __ i change my account on the cards. that being said, with a number of breaches, i have learned through the media, i am going

increasingly to cash. i will only buy gasoline, an airline ticket. in my reducing my risk? guest: when you use your credit or debit card at any retailer, there is a certain amount of risk involved. i would disagree a little bit that you are more secure when you use it at a small location __ those are probably relying on a third_party card processing company, who may not have the resources to invest in security the way that larger retailer might. for example, some of the recent hacks that we have seen happen breaches at parking lots __ the

parking decks were you run your car through an automated reader, those were recently hacked. i certainly think you are at risk no matter where you use your card, as long as your retailer may have the resources to make it stronger. as a solid target and home depot, the larger target you are. one thing that is encouraging __ the new chip cards. this has been a topic for debate here in washington in response to a lot of these retail hacks. in response, many banks are sending out new cards that have this chip in them. terminals that use these cards are being more slowly introduce into the marketplace.

one think consumers can do __ take a look for a minute and see if they accept chips. if they do, try to dip your card in. it is not the swiped that most consumers are familiar with. it is dipping your card and. your chip will produce a one_time only code. look for that chip reader, if it is available. unfortunately, a lot of the mom_and_pop's, tthey may not have this technology yet. more retailers of start to install it. host: we hear about apple paying for things by your phone, how much security is there in that? guest: using mobile wallet is certainly an interesting development.

i think we will see more of that. it can be more secure. it is not reliant on an outdated technology like magstripes. that said, there is a growing amount of malware out there that is targeting mobile phones. if the technology exists, it can be hacked. i can never say that certain forms of payment will be more secure __ it could be. talking to folks who are involved __ they take security very seriously. i think consumers should be aware that this is out there. it can be a safer way to pay, but is not 100% safe. host: leroy, your next.

caller: good morning. what i'm hearing is almost like an epidemic. i think the financial institutions have a duty to protect their products. that being said, i think there are two sides of the coin. if they have done what they were supposed to to protect their products, i believe there would not be so attacking going on. these people graduating from these ti, technical fields, they know who is rolled, and who is going rogue. some of the money they are operating with is coming from somewhere. if people are so vulnerable in being expose like this, new products being sold to quote on quote protect them __ a whole

network of billionaires were creating zombies. i'm really worried about this. guest: i think leroy is right. there is a very sophisticated cybercrime economy out there. we hear about cybercrime forms out there, where they are selling malware, compromise cards. where they're very concerned about customer service. the fact that these criminals feel brazen enough, and secure enough, to offer these sorts of services openly speaks to the fact that most of these criminals do not fear the reach of law enforcement. that said, he is right, there is more that companies can do to protect our data.

there are standards that exist out there. we have seen in the standard staff come out around critical infrastructure. mist is the national institute of standard technology. excuse me if i'm wrong on that. they have cyber security standards to come out for infrastructure. it is a good step. i think companies can look at that and see if there parts of that that they can initiate to better protect consumers data. at the end of the day, think they need to be the right economic incentives in place. one of the things for our 114 congress is taking a look at cyber insurance. this is an area that has gained traction in recent years. doing things like helping to

make consumers __ helping companies still at the cost of these measures. given the impact that these breaches have on consumers, from inconvenience to replacing the card to the dean that your __ ding that your credit report takes __ that can affect your credit store, thousands of dollars to the average consumer because the credit score is lower. we think that consumers should be compensated when a breach happens, and there are real harms to consumers, they should be made whole. when i get my data to a company, and they do not

protect that data, they have lost my trust, and harmony. cyber insurance is one way that consumers can be made whole. host: tom is next. caller: i have a two_part question. first, what happened to the idea that it was the responsibility of the retailer to verify identification before charges were made on a card? nowadays, they do not even ask you for id. or they're just trying to get back into it. but, they tried to get away from it, and make it the responsibility of the harmed consumer if they use their id

illegally. the entire internet was organized and set up to give businesses backdoor access to everything that you are doing. the entire concept has been wrong since the beginning. you should not be bombarded every time you do a search on the internet. you are bombarded with emails and junk mail. guest: i will take the first part of the question. most consumers, if you use a debit or credit card, at a retailer, and you sign up for the paper __ i know i've not had my id check to make sure that with my signature in a long time. i think the signature method as a way to verify identity is

less secure than using a pin, which only i should know. that said, it's not to say that there is not security inherent in the credit card system. they have invested billions of dollars to time prevent fraud on their cards. when fraud happens, the consumer probably reports it, the liability for that charge is on the issuing bank, or the credit card company. that will start to change later on this year. it is called the liability shifts, where some of that liability will shift to retailers.

so, if i were chip card, and the retailer does not have a chip reader and there is fraud, that liability may be on the retailer rather than the bank. that is one stick that is trying to be used to get retailers to adopt this chip system. that will help, it is a step in the right direction. it will not be as secure as chip and pin, but it will be more secure than the magstripe technology. host: from twitter, saying that things could have distributed chip_based cards a long time ago. guest: in europe, they have had the chip and pin system for a long time. that has not gotten rid of fraud. we so what is called __ people

download card numbers, and create invitation cards. we sought online fraud go up, card not present fraud. so, even if we adopted the chip technology, we would still have fraud. to address tom second point about security generally online __ we have to remember the internet was created with openness in mind. not security. i think we have to __ it is inherently an insecure system. there needs to be more prioritization coming up with standards that will make it more secure. certainly, the openness is what

has allowed it to spread, and provide benefits to businesses and consumers, by security becomes a bigger issue, tthe impact of breaches will continue to rise. host: emma from california your next. caller: good morning. about hipa __ i have a pretty big family, and our things will happen with providers that we've seen. what happens is __ you see a provider, depending on your health insurance, and usually sign an agreement. at that point, you think your information is secure, ssomewhat.

you find out, hey, i have your information. i think that is really __ first, it is wrong, second, when you can find a provider about it, they deny it. guest: given the sensitivity of medical records, i think it is proper that we have laws like hip __ hipa on the books. as we move to electronic health records, it becomes easier for health care providers to share this information amongst themselves. i think there are benefits to that. for example, my general doctor can quickly share information with me to a specialist, who may be able to provide me with more seamless, and better care.

that said, i do not think the issue of privacy of my health record should receive a short stick __ in the drive for efficiency of this data. there is a balance to be struck. certainly, data security standards associated with the hipa law are something we should look at. host: use of the federal trade commission could take a bigger role. guest: the ftc has brought more than 50 cases. but, their ability to breathe real penalties, civil penalties, is not bad.

typically what happens is when there is a data security case, they will ultimately settle with the company. the company will then be subject to rules set down. the question is, consumers who have been affected by the lack of security, are they able to be made whole. probably not. the ftc does not have the authority. clarifying the role in data security is a goal in our work with congress in months to come. host: mary, good morning. caller: our account was breached in february of last year. at least about $15,000 or $16,000 is missing, gone.

the bank says it was a wire with my husband social security number. they have been trying to trace is to see where the wire went. my question is, when will they give us our money back? don't they have tthe obligation. my question is, how long will this take and what resources do we have as citizens? guest: unfortunately mary story is not unusual. we take consumer complaints, thousands of them every year. many of them are this story. i'm not familiar with the specifics of mary's case, but what we see in many complaints is the hacker will get access to somebody's bank account, with other information that they may of gone through identity theft. they can use the information to

empty it of everything __ all the money that is in it. it is too often the case that when consumers try to get their money back, there are broad locks put in place in front of them that can take months, years, sometimes they never get the money back. we think it should be much easier one a consumer suspects a breach, for the consumer to be made whole when that happened. certainly, it is not unusual for money to be wired to a third_party, sometimes overseas. it is not always easy for consumers to get that money back. there are definitely steps that need to be taken. host: california, tom. caller: hi, inc. for __ thanks

for taking my call. i was wondering what laws are there and what can i do with people reporting my credit report wrong. the amounts are not the same, i cannot get any credit because of this. what are the things __ oone of the things that they were reporting was totally false in the beginning. they have changed some things, but they have not put down that it has been disputed. guest: tom is not alone here. when consumers notice in accuracies in the credit reports, and they complain about it to the bureau, the response of the get vvaries

greatly. because there are three major credit reporting bureaus __ consumers often have to get in touch with multiple ones. thankfully, there are laws in the books that say consumers can get their report free. consumers can also do a fraud alert on the reports. those can be done for free, they have to be renewed every 90 days, but again, free. what happens is if someone tries to open an account on your line of credit, you have to be consulted.

i encourage consumers to look into the fraud alert. consumers who have already been victims of this, can put a credit freeze. if you are not allowed to open credit on the account without putting in a pin. those are two steps that consumers can take. if you have trouble working with the credit pearls, there is a great organization out there called the identity theft resource center. it provides direct counseling to victims of identity theft to help them recover from this. there on the web, and have a toll_free number. host: rené from san antonio, texas. caller: my question is in

regards to the aca website. why wasn't that a hipaa violation? guest: as with any other system __ the aca or the government website __ they are as at risk to data breaches as any retailer would be. that is why we were very happy to see the presidential executive order that starts to tackle this. it requires federal employees to use chip and pin cards. in terms of the caller's

question about whether or not the risk exposure inherent in healthcare.gov, i do not know the answer to that. i do not know what sort of data may been breached. certainly, if consumers are providing the information to any organization __ government or nonprofit, or corporate entity __ that data can be at risk. it is important for consumers to take the steps that i described earlier __ checking your accounts regularly. host: here is tim. caller: you said that consumers need to do more, of course. but, shouldn't the federal government do more? and, if they share information, the government should be the strong arm,, what is the problem here?

homeland makes it mandatory to give up this information. guest: i think the government and businesses need to work closely together to identify these threats. often, information on particular cyber criminals get silenced. sharing the data gets lost. certainly, the consumer concerns about privacy, abuses the government may have been involved then in regards to an essay __ and make it harder for cconsumers to trust the government, particularly in cyber security. if consumers do not trust the government to not be snooping on them, they probably do not trust companies to not be abusing that as well.

civil liberties have been one area of vigorous debates here in washington. host: as much as you want 114 congress to tackle this, what is the likelihood that they will? guest: i think this is a bipartisan issue. they are hearing about this from the constituents on a regular basis. there will be a debate as to how much responsibility should be placed on to the businesses. for example, in the data breach notification area. private industry will hate it. we think it will be a real boon to consumers to better protect __ and incentives to businesses. we think they're far more areas of agreement on these issues, then this agreement. we are hopeful that we will see movement on this issue.

host: thank you for your time. open phones for the last 20 minutes or so. here's how you can call. we will take open phones in just a moment. first of all, our "newsmakers" program. you will hear from representative elect ken buck. he has been elected to be the republican freshman class presidents. he responded to reporters. [video clip] >> mitch mcconnell said the u. s. would not default on debt __ it will be one of the biggest issues you face __ he is raising the debt limit.

>> i think we have to make substantial progress on balancing the budget. if we do that, i will take a serious look at voting to increase the debt limit. i'm not __ i do not believe that the consequences of failing to raise the debt limit are what the president and others in the united states congress have said. i think we have a lot of room to cut our spending. if we do that, we want facts avoid the catastrophic consequences to others talk about. >> do you support the so_called baynard rule? >> i think that is a minimum threshold that we have to meet in real cuts __ not cuts that

happened 10 years from now, or 15 years from now, where another congress will inevitably change those cuts. i think we have to have cuts that happen now. they were unfortunately hurt. but, the pain is caused by a history of irresponsible spending in the united states. >> if not could we face the possibility of a default? >> yyou know, i hope that we don't. i hope that congress and the president act responsibly, and balance our budget, or at least move substantially in a direction. >> "washington journal" continues. host: open phones for the next 20 minutes. the numbers you can call __

let's start with joe on the republican mind. caller: i was listening to the program on immigration. the democrat was trying to make it sound like the republicans are making public fodder of immigrants. we are talking about how reagan wanted families __ obama has let unsupervised children come in. we know that some of them aren't really children __ there are drug dealers, and even criminals in it. the people that came under reagan loved america. they wanted to come and be assimilated, learn english. obama actually almost encourages them to hate america.

it's like they want to bring mexico to our soil. i thought, imagine that, total poverty. i thought, look around, they seem to be making great progress under the eye of the justice department, congress and the present. host: tony. caller: good morning. i went to know if there's any knowledge that you have in reference to mortgage payments. it seems as though __ i did some investigation __ what the banks are telling me, you have a fixed rate, they are truly taking up your payments.

all the years i have been paying mortgages here in the states, it seems as though this is the first time this is happening. host: these mortgages will be packaged under federal assistance programs? i would suggest going to the department of housing and urban development __ hud.gov. they would probably give you the best resources and information. caller: right. i did not get that notice. quite a few folks have been telling me about it. this past week, i received one. i was like, whoa, what is going on. your target consumer information, so i thought i would call and see if this is something going on nationwide. host: i would refer you to hud

for information. william from california. caller: hi, good morning. i spoke you on immigration before. i enjoyed listening to the two gentlemen debate issues of immigration earlier. to the same point, i am having to pay $7000 to get my wife year from the philippines, and obama is allowing millions of people to come into this country on a free ride. is this right? host: we would __ will hear from bruce. caller: immigration money tell you __ immigration, let me tell you how it is.

i told a neighbor, you have the right to be here. what happened was __ zoning problems, hit and runs, drunk in the middle of the day, urinating on the street. no respect for anybody else. how about jobs for americans first. it seems like obama is more interested in the illegal immigrants. more concerned about them than american citizens. host: the name john hinckley back in the news. the washington news saying they will not prosecute him.

steve from alabama, go ahead. caller: i would like to talk about immigration. but, my comment is that i would like to see some changes to the tax code. i'm getting old enough now that i'm concerned about the future. i recently lost my house, i'm

divorced. i'm unable to do anything to provide for my phone future. it is a vicious system. it really hurts you. host: marnie from illinois. caller: i want to comment on immigration, and particularly oon mark krikorian. he talked __ he is against the other gentleman __ the whole time watching the series, what came to mind was, what is the cost of deportation? those who get into dhs system, the ice system, what is the cost?

they said it declined in 2014, but rose during bush clinton. it have to be expensive, and that goes towards the american taxpayer. that is one thing i want americans to know __ the cost of deportation. whether they are good abiding citizens, or people who want to be citizens. host: the "washington post" reports that the federal reserve __ because the broad economic strength may allow the federal reserve to increase interest rates.

also, in the "new york times" this morning, when it comes to u. s. factories __ how they are bearing this year. next up is carol from minnesota. caller: hi. my comment is __ for consumer protection, when wall street and the banks crashed, why was it the 401(k)s, the irs __ you

know __ pensions, were not protected? when banks were given money so they could continue to function, the first thing they should have done was replace that money back into those people's plans. i want to know, why not? host: austin from california. caller: i was just wondering why all republicans always seem to go back to when reagan was in office, like the glory days. did __ don't they think about all the people who leave that died of aids. obama exactly doing a great job. i live in california, i am white, i'm 19, i'm aall for the immigration policy.

hosst: that was austin from california. austin, texas is the topic of our program on "american history tv." you will hear many things, including an interview from jeffrey kerr. you would hear from him how often became the capital of texas. [video clip] >> tto my left, just down the block is that colorado liver. this is an important historic site because this is where waterloo, austin's predecessor, was. i'm standing at about the spot where the herald cabin was. this is where bomar was staying when he, and the rest of the men got wind of the big buffalo herd.

lamarand his men jumped on their horses. the men galloped on their horses __ they had stuff their belts full of pistols __ and brought in the midst of this herd of buffaloes, firing and shooting. at eight in congress, lamarche authors anonymous buffalo. from there, he went to the top of the hill where the capital is, and said this is where the future seat of empire should be. >> he very much meant when he said empire. host: learn more about austin, texas this weekend on "american history tv" and book tv. find out more information on a website c_span.org. pat from tennessee, thanks for waiting. caller: hello. i'm calling about immigration __ not just from mexico, iraq,

spain. these people end up in million_dollar homes, and the ones they get $50,000 __ obama said a couple weeks ago that immigrants are starting up businesses faster than americans. yeah. they give them $50,000 to start a business, and free taxes. no wonder they can start up a business. i started mine was zero dollars, nno help. host: billy from georgia. caller: i want to talk about social security, and how they always want to balance the budget. social security is a sound system.

different organizations have borrowed more money from social security and take away money that was there. it should not be touched. that is something that is guaranteed __ to let people take money from social security, and hide it under the table, that is wrong. don't take it out on the people who pay it in. host: the "wall street journal" writes __

nick in illinois. nick, go ahead. caller: happy new year to this great land. first off, i am a republican __ we're been deemed every name in the book by democrats. i say, let's give everybody their immigration. let's give everybody what they want. we are $18 trillion in debt. we have 158 million people receiving benefits in this country.

147 million workers. 992 million people not participating in the labor force, but we will be in all these illegals. at any given point, we have 100 million people visiting america. look at __ they were receiving food stamps, how many people are on unfunded liability assets. anything this country gives out entitlement wise, we're giving these people. host: steve from austin, texas is up next. caller: that guy before me really covered it all. i'm remarking on immigration __ he is not speaking on the majority of americans.

the majority of americans want the law to be enforced. you guys at the all up, i do not how you talk about ripping families apart, what about families they get run over by drunk illegal immigrants on the streets, or get shot. they come to texas, all these immigrants want to come here and make money. it is erroneous. you out of the percentages, and they do not equal out. host: in light of the policy announced by the present normalizing relations with cuba __ the "washington post" takes a look.

the post piece, by the way, has a picture.

taking a look at the intersection there in havana, cuba, where diplomats work. we will take our last call from debbie. caller: hello. thank you. i live in toledo, ohio. i would like to say, the other evening i was watching __ senator bernie sanders was on. they were talking up the building needs the past to keep this government running. at any rate, within that bill, there was a kind that was going to be made on multi employer pensions. my husband and i are from up here __ we were born in the 50's. my husband was a union carpenter. he went to school to learn his trade. we made a nice middle_class

living. the thing is __ when you were to the carpenter like that through the union __ they were all union jobs. in the end, you do not just get one employer paying attention, it is a multi employer pension. host: that is the last call we will be able to take for today. for tomorrow's program, we will be joined by two people taking a look on issues that will dominate the 114th congress, and politics as the year goes on. that will be at 7:45 am. then, roben farzad will talk on economic stories of 2015. your phone calls, a look at the papers all on "washington

journal." ♪ >> comment this morning, a look at internet policy. portions of the washington ideas forum. >> the c-span cities to her takes book tv in american history tv on the road traveling to cities to learn about their history and literary life. this weekend, we partner with time warner cable for a visit to austin, texas and