[captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] tomorrow, maryland representative chris van hollen will talk. the congressman is currently the ranking democrat on the budget committee. live coverage begins >> this week on "q&a," our guest is dick lehr, author of "the birth of a nation: how a legendary filmmaker and a crusading editor reignited america's civil war." >> dick lehr, in a recent washington post review, the gentleman who wrote it, it

starts off this way -- no red-blooded american would favor censoring works of art. while reading dick lehr's book you may find yourself rooting for that with a clampdown of the 1915 film of the same name. >> isn't that a great start? >> why "the birth of a nation" and what is it? >> it's considered the first blockbuster film. the story i want to tell is not only the making and release of the film in 1915 but the controversy that it provoked. it is mainly a story about a civil rights leader from a boston by the name of william monroe trotter, a radical newspaper editor as well who was at the forefront of extensive protest action against this bill

-- film about civil war and reconstruction which is entirely racist portrayal of black america. >> if it were to come out today, what would happen? >> i hope it would not get censored but i hope there will be lots of protest drawing attention to the racism at the heart of the story and in griffith's hands. >> we are going to do a minute want to show the opening of this if people have not seen it in what it looks like. it is three hours. let's watch. [video clip]

>> the first minute, what did we just see? >> we showed griffith, the first thing of this union in america of africans enslaved to the united states. it sets the note, the tone that freeing slaves was a huge mistake. >> when did you first watch and what was your reaction? >> my first viewing was in a film history course in college.

it is the starting point. this movie in terms of filmmaking techniques was a breakthrough moment in american film. usually in survey courses, this where you begin. a lot of attention is paid to griffith's techniques, use of the close-up and crosscutting to enhance the drama. also the epic scale, it goes on for three hours. that was that. that is where i first got into it. there's a huge disconnect between the technique and the story it tells of the civil war and reconstruction. >> february -- when was the date? february 15, a showing at the white house with woodrow wilson. explain how it happened. >> the filmmakers, griffith

being the director, but also the author of the book, "the clansman," written by a man named tom dixon. wilson and dixon went way back they knew each other. dixon said let's get this movie screened in the white house. he pulled it off and that's what happened. in the east room of the white house, the first ever screening. >> who was in the crowd? >> his family, some of his cabinet members, other high-ranking washington figures.

>> as i read in your book, a former chief justice? >> a former chief justice and it went so well that night that dixon and griffith and very quickly put together a second screening for the supreme court of the united states and congressional leaders. again, terrific sense of marketing and getting these powerbrokers behind the movie as being an awesome piece of filmmaking. you have to remember when you go back to 1915, the film industry, is in its infancy. no one had ever seen anything like what griffith had produced, take away the subject matter being the civil war and reconstruction.

just the effects of it all had people, audiences weeping during emotional scenes. it really was kind of a "star wars" of its time. >> where was woodrow wilson from originally? >> he was originally from the south, kentucky. >> where was d.w. griffith from? >> louisville, kentucky. his father, lieutenant colonel griffith fought for the confederacy. >> where was tom dixon from? >> from the south as well. you had this unified front in terms of a southern view of the war and its aftermath. >> newspaper reporters diplomats, the turnout on such short notice had exceeded any reasonable expectation to be permitted to attend, journalist had to agree the film was off the record because it had not been shown public in the east. >> those were the terms of both for the screening at the white house and the second screening i just mentioned. griffith was not one to live by those terms because he sent telegrams after the white house screening to a favorite entertainer reporter of his at "the l.a. times."

and just reported both the screening and how wonderful it had gone. it was grace kingsley, and one of her columns, wrote the news there'd been an amazing screening in the white house.

>> what was woodrow wilson's known attitudes at the time about african-americans? >> i think he was very smart politically. the crusading newspaper editor and civil rights leader, was it make her to in the book, monroe trotter had supported wilson when he ran. black leaders had gone in new jersey and come away with wilson's promise to be fair to all americans. trotter was naive and that was general because it was under wilson's watch as president that the national government went to jim crow. there is a backsliding. segregation and the treasury and other federal agencies was unprecedented. and it drove trotter nuts. >> it is in the public domain and they can go to youtube and find opportunities to watch the whole thing. i will show excerpts through the hour. we will talk about after we start it. some slaves shown in demeaning roles in the early part of this movie. [video clip]

>> what is the time period? >> before civil war and this is what is known as part one of the movie. the notion here is to show that -- in demeaning roles, but they are a fun-loving bunch of slaves, a kind of harmony about it. and peace and well-being in a way. this is part of looking back to the pre-civil war years that is

part of the so-called lost cause and nostalgia for a time that was not so bad really for everybody. >> where was this location? >> in the fictional town of piedmont, south carolina. >> one of the things you notice when you watch the movie is some blacks are actually black people and other are blackface. why the mixture? >> i do not know exactly. the overwhelmingly majority of actors were white actors in blackface. certainly any of the major characters who were black in the movie are white actors. >> you are talking about the review, linking to the story to -- the leaking of the story of the woman at the los angeles times, i would use a quote from back then. now comes the protest of the darkies and interference against the picture.

how often did you find the word "darkie" used back then? >> all of the time. it opened in l.a. in february and went to new york in march of 1915 and went to boston where there was an amazing titanic battle. and reviews everywhere, however, almost universally were just fawning over the movie. and then also in the same breath, critical of the black protests that were started to develop and snowball and climaxed in boston. yeah, it was dismissive and hostile like the quote you just read. compare that to later in the year when review and the atlanta

-- when the reviewer in the atlanta constitution, who after seeing the movie wrote a rave review saying, we have our d.w. griffith. >> how did you get to this as a book? >> i have to say i was aware of the film, earlier as i mentioned aware from college and film studies. it was trotter who grabbed my attention. i was about five years ago, an article i was reading in a made a reference to trotter, a newspaperman and civil rights leader. and i live in boston, i am a journalist, i teach there. i did not really know him. it embarrassed me in a way for all of the reasons i just mentioned. i started reading further realized what a big deal he was in the early 1900s, a forgotten civil rights leader who in the early 1900 would've been mentioned in the same breath as booker t. washington, web dubois. i was going, maybe a biography in this guy? he was advocating a new strategy in civil rights and challenging

booker t. washington. i learned there was a biography written 40 years ago that as long out-of-print of print that was titled "the guardian," the name of his weekly newspaper. i said, there's a place for a new biography. but then i got to 1915 and just the surface in some of these references to how he was at the forefront of this extended protest against the movie that i knew about. that was my aha moment. i said, that is the drama to capture what i think were so many big ideas about civil liberties and rights, film media revolution. >> here's an excerpt. it is a civil war battle but before we get to that. the stoneman family and the cameron family. set that up. >> griffith, in order to tell such a big story, civil war and its aftermath, he chooses to tell it through to families.

-- two families. the camerons from piedmont south carolina. and the stoneman's from the north. they knew each other before the war a interlocking relationships, friendships between the sons and a number of children in each family. their story is played out both from before, during and after the war. >> how much is fiction? >> all of that. >> here is a civil war battle. let's watch. [video clip] >> it is supposed to be where? >> the man with a sword, that is the little colonel who is

getting wounded and hurt in the charge against him and the blue folks. -- bluecoats. waving the flag. it is about bravery. >> you have the union on the right confederates on the left. >> hopefully, your viewers, in its time, amazing pieces of cutting in filmmaking. and then, now that is one of the stonemans and his realizing his friend from the south. a moment of crossing the line here. these guys are friends. >> cameron from the south and stoneman from the north. >> and the red lane of death taking their place and the battle goes on into the night. >> it captures griffith and what people were blown away by. he was able to stage battle scenes like that.

this is the aftermath of the war. >> and the colors changed? >> it's a technique for tint and mood. these were cutting-edge techniques. it impacted the mood of the film. >> why did d.w. griffith think people would sit still for a three-hour plus movie? >> he was taking a chance in many ways. it was not that far removed from 1905 where the first nickelodeon's, which grew explosively which featured in the short entertainments for a nickel. they went on for 10 minutes. in the intervening years, there was an apprenticeship for him, where he -- the earliest films were the one reelers. he was directing them and roosevelt scenarios for them and

whatnot. he was incredibly ambitious who wanted to elevate film to a higher art form. some of these techniques, a famous cinematographer developed and others he heard about, but he put them to a new and more artistic use. it kind of culminated in 1914 when he was filming this. he was in search of a big bang moment, a big story in which to really spread his wings and blow audiences away. >> how much filmmaking -- >> it was a growing industry and in its infancy learned that in these quick turnaround entertainment, little comedies were profitable and so, griffith was hugely successful making those for a company called biograph.

but by 1913, he was at odds with the owners because it wanted them to stick with the recipe. he is saying, no, there is more here. we can do more with this medium. they had a falling out. he left. >> when did monroe trotter get wind of the movie and how well did he know woodrow wilson? >> that is two questions. let me start with wilson. i love the fact there's connective tissue between wilson and griffith which we already mentioned in terms of the screening. a couple years before in the end of 1914 trotter had an encounter with wilson in the white house that i think he juxtaposed, it says everything about the dynamic here. trotter supporting wilson in 1912 for the presidency. by 1914, he and many black leaders in the country were appalled by the jim crow in the federal government. trotter insisted on an audience

with the president and pulled all of the strings to get into the white house which he did. he presented the president with a huge petition and confronted him in a very firm, trotter-like way about segregation in the federal offices about what a betrayal it was. wilson -- it soured so fast, wilson could not believe a black man was talking to him in this way. essentially, he told trotter to stop and nobody talks to me like that. he tell the others if they ever come back, they would have to find another person to represent them. he basically kicked trotter out.

>> you have a quote for woodrow wilson. >> yes, i love that letter that wilson wrote after this encounter that came up in front news. that to me is right out of the playbook that wilson had used in his encounters with people like trotter. like in 1912 when they met able to persuade trotter to support him. saying generic things. he lost it at that moment. i loved it because trotter, he was not impressed with power. he was speaking truth to power.

here is a guy who had gone to harvard. trotter was and the class of 1895 at harvard. he was the first black phi beta kappa. he was not overwhelmed by the trappings of the oval office. he was not impolite. he was making his case. wilson was just an used to it. -- wilson was unused to it. >> the one thing, it has nothing to do with whether the movie is good or bad. what i found well done was the lincoln assassination. of all the times i've seen that in places and this back in 1915. >> it is all about the capabilities of d.w. griffith. >> did i read in your book that they had complete mock-up of the ford theater? >> that's where most of the film was filmed in hollywood which griffith had gone to and start working in 1910.

it was a story that gets at the early days of hollywood. >> we have a minute and a half to show it. it leads up to what will not see is the guard outside the box where abraham lincoln was sitting and john wilkes booth comes around and opens the door and shoots him. let's watch and you can explain. [video clip] >> that is john wilkes booth right there. when you look at the box on the left, the major and his wife and is that mary todd lincoln? >> yes. >> i go to filmmaking techniques here area the close-up, the cross cutting. this was revolutionary in a way. it used to be you put a camera down and had actors sort of performing in front of them.

>> the stage and here comes the assassination. >> shifting points of view. >> john wilkes boothe jumping onto the stage. off he goes. >> cutting between perspectives, close-ups. the camera happens to be there and the narrative. >> it looks like ford theater does. >> yeah, photographs. back in 1915, the audience was spellbound viewing this.

and the music, you can hear the music. it was really important to griffith. >> you said in your book, in boston there was a 40-piece orchestra. >> about 28-piece and in some places 40-piece. >> a 40 piece and the theater? >> to create the magic of it. the ushers would be dressed in period pieces. the audience were given programs for the movie which would start in 20 mins or so. >> how many people acted in the movie? >> i do not have an accurate count. griffith, who was again one of the groundbreaking in public relations as well and promotions, talked about having

20,000 extras in the civil war scene. that was widely untrue. he's a lot of tricks with the camera to make it seem like thousands of soldiers. >> how long did it take him to make the film? >> he started shooting on july 4, 1914 and he done by the end of the year. >> did you plan your book because it was the 100 th anniversary? >> i did. this centennial of the movie is next year. i expect people to pay attention in the film world and i wanted a story that gave a good notice to all of that accomplishment and put it in a larger context of its time. not just in terms of civil rights, but to the history of censorship. >> the public is watching. how much did it cost? >> that is another thing that the griffith exaggerated immensely. i think about $100,000 budget. he had that at $500,000. >> how much would it be today? >> i would need a calculator.

>> how did he get the money? >> he partnered up and got his primary financing from that producer. as he went over budget and the late summer and early fall, he started bartering and cutting deals with certain folks in california like the man who owns the auditorium. he sold an interest of the film in exchange for cash. he was able to close the budget gap with creative financing. >> how old was monroe trotter

and d.w. griffith and thomas dixon back in those days? >> in 1915, trotter and griffith were a couple of years apart in their mid 30's. dixon was the eldest of the crew. he was well in his 40's at that time. he had been an enormously successful novelist and playwright in the early 1900s, writing, he was a racist and "the clansman," was a third in a trilogy of books that explore those things in the context of the civil war. >> who took it on besides the black folks? >> they have the support of a number of liberals and supporters of civil rights in the white community. what is tricky there, one of the strategies of the protesters in trotter in boston was to get the film censored which from our perspective in the 21st century, it gave me a lot of discomfort as a first amendment guy.

why is a newspaperman using those means? they lost support among white liberals because of the goal of censorship. >> is this the legislature? which is dominated by ex-slaves. >> part two of the movie after the war, reconstruction is really the heart of the protests in the sense of this where the blacks are appalled at the portrayal of free slaves. it is a moment showing what happens when you give former slaves the right to vote, the right to be elected, the right to govern. a scene in south carolina legislature where there first and primary order of business is to pass a bill allowing for

interracial marriage because griffith sees black men solely interested in pursuing having white women. >> it appears when you see this, the whole legislature except for couple of people are black. was that true? >> no. griffith defended about the historical accuracy. i do not have the numbers but he has this thing and that blacks overwhelmingly controlled. his numbers will be in the film. that is just not true. there is no legislature and the south, in reconstruction that was dominated by blacks. >> this is where, part of where you begin to see the stereotyping of black folks back in those days. you have to watch closely as to what they are doing. >> it happens fast. [video clip]

>> among other things, we see the drinking, eating chicken, a feet on the desk. >> feet on the desk, picking their toes. this is what happens when you free slaves. >> that's what he said? >> what griffith is calling historically accurate. >> they passed a bill that all whites had to salute negroes? >> not true. >> up in the balcony, you see a few white people. >> now the minority, the helpless minority. >> when they looked at the white house, they liked it? >> wilson liked it. wilson had written he was an

american historian and he wrote a history of america. they had drawn on using quotes from the book at some of their titles. they knew how to play to wilson's ego. >> was there a time when woodrow wilson is thought this after this and he ever condemned it? >> not that i came across. for months, they tried to deny that it was misdirection and tried to keep quiet or denied they had the white house screening. it became a political -- >> the fellow there is called mulatto. silas lynch and whether the politics of having a mulatto sent to south carolina to be elected lieutenant governor? >> just to show blacks are in charge and in control and the

condemnation of white blood, mulatto. he accompanies a carpetbagger to become governor. he is one of the main the black characters in the film. >> he was sent down by austin stoneman? >> the character, the white family from the north and you -- he becomes governor of south carolina. that is the narrative griffith is playing with in terms of the 2 families. one from the south and one from the north. >> we see the stoneman family in austin stoneman is a congressman and holy is he supposed to be? >> the radical republican of great fame. >> he was trying to dictate to the south? >> yes and implement freedom for the slaves. in a punitive away.

against the whites and plantation life in the south. >> how many times have you watched the movie? >> i think entirely, a film course in college. there was a time when i saw it as a newspaper reporter working undercover where the film was shown at a klan meeting. i was in the room, a young reporter in hartford connecticut. david duke's klan was recruiting members in connecticut of all places. duke came and they press conference or in the day but held a secret meeting that night. it was a meeting i infiltrated and he surprised me and the other dozen or so when he pulled out "the birth of a nation" to screen and propaganda of why you should join the klan. that was 1979. for me, when i came to writing this book the first field in college, understanding is place

in history in terms of film technique. it was the second viewing that hit me, the propaganda power. >> when you saw the screening and were undercover, the people in the room cheered? >> yeah. when we get to the scene where going to show with the moments of how one black men, one white man can fight off a handful of blacks and they are cheering. >> did they ever figure out who you were? >> yes and i wrote about it. the idea was to reveal both who was the connecticut leader and the number of connecticut members. duke in his press conferences was claiming the drive had been successful and he had 300 plus members. at the secret meeting, there are only a dozen or so bike types

-- biker types, so it blew his pr thing out of the water. >> here is the gus chase. who is gus and who is flora? >> a freed slave. >> a white man in blackface? >> absolutely. he symbolizes he is lusting after flora, a virginal young white girl. >> this is flora cameron? >> yes. >> a part of the cameron family and we saw her brother. >> he fought for the confederacy. gus is the symbol of what any black man, according to griffith, is after and that is a white woman. gus, it is one the most famous scenes. the gus chase scene.

gus confronts flora and basically says i want you. she pushes him away and wants nothing to do with him. he chases her in a goes on for five or six minutes. >> let's watch it. [video clip] >> who is that? >> her brother, ben cameron.

she's missing and he is searching for her. >> gus is an ex-slave. >> a southerner. >> from south carolina? >> yes. >> she's running away. does her brother know gus is trying to find her? >> she is missing. she was supposed to have been home. they had trouble with gus earlier with him being predatory. she would rather go to the edge of a cliff. he is hunched over and there is something almost gorilla-like or ape-like. >> is like griffith's portrayal?

>> yeah. >> still cannot find his sister. >> rather than submit to gus the maiden flora would prefer to jump to her death. >> how important is the gus part of the story? >> it is hugely important because it captures dramatically. that scene had a huge impact am horrified that innocent, virginal young girl, flora would have to jumped to her death to escape the clutches of a black man. it was so inflammatory.

it was the scene that the black protesters, problematic moments, this was number one. >> you said in boston and they tried to stop it in boston and it played 365 days? >> 365 performances because they had matinees. it opened in april. >> how much did it cost in those days? >> there were the nickelodeons just a few years earlier. $.25 or whatnot. the other amazing thing that griffith is known for committee charge the unheard-of price of two dollars back then. you could get in -- you could find quarter seat at times. the prevailing price in new york and boston and beyond was two bucks.

he was filling the theaters and matinees and added extra performances. it was -- it blew everybody away. >> i ask you how many times you have seen and you said 2. was there a third? >> i watched from beginning to end once and i've watched jumped in different things throughout the research. the gus chase i cannot say how many times i have seen that. >> here is the fight the same -- scene with an african-american guy shooting a white guy in the back. it is a minute. [video clip] >> you are saying it was david

duke, one white man fighting of several black and this was a moment david duke was jumping up and down. >> what is the purpose of this white guy coming into the all blacks, looking for gus? >> there are looking for gus. >> gus shooting the white guy. >> yeah, now he is wanted. the lawlessness of black men. >> and the idea that a white man could lick all of the blacks in the room? >> pulled out a gun and went out and shot them down. >> how effective was monroe trotter in stopping anything in regards? did he get anything changed? >> not of real substance.

in boston, james michael curley, the legendary mayor, curley in the end a trotter saying it could go on. contextually, trotter believes curley, who coined the term "banned in boston," and a number of ways. this gus same, curley told griffith a gave him a bit of a pause and ask if he would trim it. he gave lip service. he was always tinkering with his film. sometimes he made cosmetic cuts and sometimes he didn't and said he did. it was a living document. trotter was not able to stop the film or change it in any real way.

what he did accomplish and the other protesters who were part of a local branch of the naacp was to certainly draw attention to the movie is not representative of their race. they understood trotter and the other protesters, they understood they would probably sell tickets by causing controversy in demonstrating and whatnot of this the film. the alternative was worse to stand by silently and let this movie that griffith claims is history be the unchallenged of you of the civil war and reconstruction. >> how long were you with the boston globe? >> 19 years. >> what do you do now? >> teach journalism. >> how many students? >> 30-40. i teach journalism and writing. >> how many of your students watched this film? >> i do not know.

i have talked about in class and they have heard me talk about as i've worked on this project. some of them has never heard of it which surprises me. i am in the college of communications which is home to film and television department and this is still taught in the american course. >> here is a clip of the ku klux klan bringing gus to justice. let's watch. [video clip]

>> you can see why trotter and the other protesters were appalled by the film. >> the lieutenant in here was the mulatto. >> silas lynch.

>> sent from pennsylvania. on his doorstep. >> the answer to blacks and carpetbaggers. >> i want to ask you about monroe trotter and d.w. griffith at the end of their lives. what happens in the movie to all of the characters? how many people died from the different families? >> i cannot actually give you a headcount, a number of the sons from both families died. lieutenant ben cameron is on one of those horses under the hoods, as a result of his sister's death. he founded the klan and the climax is the klan portrayed as the savior of the south. the healing force who brings order to the chaos that has been created by freed slaves, poor undeserving of freedom, of

voting rights, of any trappings of civilized being. the klan rides to the rescue as some of the family members are trapped in a cabin and being stalked by black troops. >> i found this on youtube. it has absolutely no connection to your book and i am not sure who the person is. her name is mercedes. i thought it would be interested, she is a black woman and a young woman and a critic of movies. she decided to critique this movie. let's watch a minute of it. [video clip]

>> oh, hi. this is classic critiques. i am mercedez. i am critiquing "birth of a nation." it is a lot of stereotypes. d.w. griffith shows people in a -- black people in a very negative light. there's one scene where they had a white actor in a blackface raping a white woman. you see griffith displaying the black people as one-dimensional. the mammies or shucking and jiving. do i suggest you watch this? absolutely. the content is very racial so be prepared and it is three hours long. it is pure fiction. >> it is great. i love it. she talked about the portrayal the stereotypes of blacks and whatnot.

the thing that always baffles me is griffith supported it, does what he grew up with his father was a great storyteller confederate soldier. all around him, when the protests are happening, he is eating comforted by the likes of monroe trotter was not represented. somebody smart and articulate. accomplished. it is almost like, how blind could griffith be not to recognize. protesters saying, this is not right, that's not the whole story. it's not even the beginning. >> when our local content vehicles move around and they found this in waco, texas and our producer suggested we look at as a way that happened instead of a fiction of this movie. >> he was mutilated in many different ways and then they doused him in oil and set him on

fire. they pulled the chain and raised him out of the fire so more people could see what was happening. every time they did that, a big cheer went up. the reporter said it was like they had just came from a football game where they won a huge victory. unfortunately, he was a very strong, young man and it took him a while to die. he even kicked himself off his funeral pyre and they had to drag him that. finally, all that was left was the charred torso and head and bits of limbs. and somebody came on a white horse and lassoed the remains and drag them on the streets and the head was put on the doorstep of a prostitute and the teeth were pulled out and sold.

>> unfortunately, that was not uncommon scene in that period. lynching was a national horror. it was in the minds of the protesters when griffith's film came out. it would inspire an already-worrisome uptick in lynchings. another leader was tracking lynchings and that was the alarming developments around 1915, there were going up again. and the film is so inflammatory that was a big part of the protest it would incite even further lynchings. it inspired a rebirth of the klan which by 1915, had fizzled out. by the end of this year, the film was a had moved through the north as some kind of film

campaign and move the south and opened in atlanta in early december of 1915 and within days, a man by the name of william simmons, would later say he was inspired by the film that took a number of confederate supporters and went to stone mountain and burned a cross. and revived the klan and grew exponentially. >> where are you from originally? >> connecticut. >> and so did trotter? >> a few years ahead of me. [laughter] >> how did he die? >> in terms of his career, 1915 was the high water mark.

he founded a radical newspaper in 1901 to take on booker t. washington, a civil rights strategy to serve more direct, we have to get in the white man's face and hit the streets. the protest around this moving -- movie, there are photos, 3000 blacks marching to the state house. in my research, i am thinking, what year is this again? 1916. he was in many ways way ahead of its time. 1915, a couple of things happened. his wife, geraldine, died in 1918 from the flu pandemic. he was never the same. in a personal way, he was a broken man. they had been inseparable. i should've mentioned her earlier in terms of getting a newspaper out and being by his side. women were part of the protest of the movie. he struggled along in a big way in the years after. his wife -- the other thing it why he has become lost in time is he was overshadowed by the naacp, which he would not join.

1915 turns out to be a hugely pivotal year in the naacp gaining traction. look at the numbers at the beginning of the year and the end. i do not have them. the number of new branches, new members, many of which occurred because of the protests against the movie as it moved through the country. it was a breakout year. trotter would not be a part of it because he felt strongly that the organization crated by the -- created for the advancement of colored people should be integrated but run by blacks. it was not then. in his early years, the top

people were white liberals. he felt that sent the wrong message. >> in his last few years? >> he made it into the 1930's and he was in his early 60's, a broken man. healthwise, he was coming apart. the paper was barely making it out. he lived out of a rooming house. he was known to be agitated and worrisome and would walk around the flat roof. and he either slipped or fell to his death. it was on his birthday. a lot of -- in the early reports, and lots of people said he jumped and it was suicide. the family said he would never do that. i think there's a strong case could be made that the timing on his birthday and whatnot and failing health e-mail jumped. -- he jumped. >> d.w. griffith? >> he lived longer. i cannot remember at the top of my head how old he was when he died. he retired as an elder statesman

and lived in hollywood for number of years. >> in 1948? did he ever have another success? >> nothing like "the birth of a nation," it was such a hugely commercial success that he could write his own ticket. he never could make a movie that had the same success but he made movies for many years. indisputably and deservedly has a huge place in american film history. >> do have another book to write? >> i am always working on something. >> can you tell us? >> no. >> you did how many books on whitey bulger? >> 2. "and a sequel.

"black mass," and "whitey," a full-blown biography on the life story. >> our guest has been dick lehr and the name of the book is "the birth of a nation: how a legendary filmmaker and a crusading editor reignited america's civil war." as we close out, we are going to run it near the very end just a minute or so you can see how this movie ended and it can be watched by anybody on youtube. [video clip]

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