. you have to mingle, but you are on their a lot. they are way, way far right. i just can't get with way way far right. i really can't. i think this country is a mental country. we need to try to edge our way back to the middle. i have it up and down. i've been up and down. i think it is about love. we'll talk about christian and this and that, but i don't think we know the real true meaning of jesus love. host: dr. carson? guest: i would say look at our program tonight when benjamin crump and i will be talking in the sinclair broadcasting across the nation. host: where is that taking place? guest: at one of the television studios here in town wjla. tomorrow i will be on cnn after the president's speech to give

my reaction to it. i have been on a number of different venues and programs, so keep your eyes open. host: do you want to talk about your relationship with fox news and some of the viewers concerns? guest: i was a fox news country bitter until a few months ago -- contributor until a few months ago when we mutually decided since there's a possibility i might be running for office, he probably would be good for me to sever that tie. do i still appear on their from time to time? of course, but i appear on other stations to. when you are a country bitter, used to -- when you are a conservator, you have to have an exclusivity clause. host: democrat line, charlie, good morning. caller: i noticed you touched on this a little bit earlier, but i was reading an article yesterday over 50% of the school children

now are living in poverty families living in poverty. i know you say everybody is going to be having great inventions are making millions of dollars, but how are they going to do it when they are not getting the proper nutrition to learn what they need to learn when they are young? i noticed earlier you had mentioned you are going to be announcing whether you're going to run for president or not by may 1. you better be careful because there's a lot of right-wing kooks that my think there are some communistic undertones to that date and anything in declaring presidency at that time. that is it. host: first of all, i don't know what program you're listening to. i don't think a said anything about everybody becoming a millionaire and great inventor. i'm not sure which program that was. host: do you want to talk about school reforms? guest: i will say education is the great divide in the country.

it doesn't really matter what your background is, what your ethnicity is. if you get a good education, you can write euro ticket. think that given to the days of slavery. it was illegal to teach a slave to read. why? even they knew an educated man was a free man. we have to concentrate on that. look at some of the inner cities where the charter schools have so much greater graduation rates than the public schools. consider the -- instead of the officials trying to thwart the charter schools, let's figure out ways we can get more people into them and into the private schools and into the once that are successful because that has a tremendous effect on what happens to them the rest of their lives. host: we're talking with dr. benjamin carson, here with us. time to take your questions and comments. we also want to note the secretary of homeland security is speaking at the martin 13

junior memorial this morning -- morton is looking junior memorial this morning on the washington mall. here's a minute or two from the secretary's remarks. >> the movement to make dr. king's birthday or holiday momentum in atlanta in the 1970's, mrs. king made it her mission to see the nation honor her husband every year on his birthday. and mrs. king and her son martin listed morehouse, spelman students and other college students as the foot soldiers in that effort. on november 2, 1983, president reagan with mrs. king at his side, signed a bill that made martin luther king's birthday a national holiday, effective for the first time on the third monday in january 1986. today the name martin luther king is one of the most recognizable in america, honest every major city in america has

a street named for him. almost every public school in america has his picture in a classroom. however, in the year 2015, dr. king has now been dead longer than he's been alive, as was pointed out, and most americans alive today were born after april 4, 1968. for some of us, dr. king is still a contemporary figure. for most of us, king is a figure consigned to history like the other men for which we have built monuments in this space. host: you can go to our website if you want to continue to watch jeh johnson speaking at the martin luther king jr. memorial this morning. dr. carson, your 13 when the selma marches were taking place in 1965, almost 14 when the voting rights act was passed 50 years ago this year. what are your memories of dr. king? guest: very vivid memories.

i remember as a youngster looking at the television, looking at the fire hoses being turned on the children, the dogs biting them. looking at dr. king marching. i was very into politics even as a youngster. i've always followed it very closely throughout my life. and the day he was killed, it was very traumatic. the next day at our school, there were horrible riots. i found myself embroiled in the sense that i had to keep to the biology laboratory and i hid some of the students and their -- in there who are targets of some of the animosity. host: white students and black students? guest: yes, because it was a black school and they were just out to get anybody who was white.

as i mentioned before, my mother taught me to look beyond the color of a person's skin. that is always going to be the way i do things, but i am very concerned about everybody in our society, particularly, the downtrodden in our society. we talk about the 47% that romney talked about. i say, we need to make a concerted effort to make sure they have a way to get out of that situation. and if we concentrate on it, we can do it. this is america. this is a can-do society. host: dr. ben carson, we appreciate you being here this morning. that town hall event taking place tonight. appreciate your time. but next, the department of justice grant program that supports more committed to oriented law enforcement.

later, member of the congressional black caucus will join us from dallas, texas. we will be right back. >> on the martin luther king holiday, we're featuring all day programming on c-spanto book tv and c-spanthree history tv. tonight, cornell west and six revolutionary african-american leaders and their impact on their own generation and now. at 4:00, vanity fair contributor on her life in journalism career. then at nine, former congressman allen west on the importance of preserving the core values of family, faith, and freedom and

feels these guys are under attack by the far left. on a mechanician tv today at 8:00 eastern, when he jones abernathy on her expenses during the civil war movement. -- juanita jones abernathy on her experiences during the civil war movement. examine how policing in the criminal justice system have asked for clean related to racial conflict -- historically related to racial conflict. find complete programming at c-span.org and let us know what you think. call, e-mail, or tweet us. join the c-span conversation like us on facebook, follow us on twitter. tuesday night, president obama delivers his state of the union address, live coverage beginning at 8:00 p.m. eastern including the president speech, gop

response delivered by newly elected iowa's senator joni ernst, and your reaction through open phones, live on c-span and c-span radio c-span 2, watch the president speech and congressional reaction from statuary hall in the us capitol. the state of the union address live on c-span c-span2 c-span radio, and c-span.org. host: ron davis serves as committed to oriented policing services program and joins us to talk about that program which is awarded some $14 billion in grants since its inception in 1994. first, explain the concept, the theory of community policing. guest: first, thank you for having me on the show. community policing is when the community and police come together to identify problems, to solve problems, and hold each other accountable for the role we all play in making our

community safe. it also has to be back unity-based governance that as part of crime-fighting and public safety is not just a role of police but all of our communities have to come together to come up as solutions to the root cause of crime and not just symptoms of crime. host: the cops program, $14 billion since 2094, how does this program work? how do community police forces apply for these kinds of grants? guest: so far we're foreign did -- funded over $14 billion 126,000 officers and other programs. summer programs in which is a competitive process with our hiring program, put out -- have hired over 100 toy 6000 officers since 1994, committed to police and develop programs, and this is where we do some of the creative work from demonstration sites on. the best practices to engage communities, build a kind of trust we know is needed to make our communities safe to to

collaborative reform. we work with agencies fallen terribly and that is local state, and tribal governments, to reform or transform them into constitutionally-based organizations that have stronger relationships. this to your process results in pretty much good organizational transformation over that period of time. we provide a lot of technical assistance, training, expert services consultants. we are in places ranging from ferguson, missouri to seattle to new orleans. we do a lot of research and put out over to me and products over the last -- julian products over the last two years. host: you bring up ferguson and the issue of trust with the incident in ferguson, the shooting of michael brown, a time when trust between communities and local police forces is having issues right now. was this program in ferguson before the events of this summer

and the end of last year? host: no, we're not. we're not provided the funding to ferguson but since that time, we of been there and a couple of capacities. we are there with technical assistance. we're also working with st. louis county to look at how the recruitment, hiring, training, the uses of force and also provide technical assistance to really get to the best practices of the profession. by providing that assistance to st. louis county, it also includes the 60 plus cities that are in saint louis county so we can provide technical assistance to ferguson. host: how do you rebuild that trust? not something that can necessarily be bought with dollars. guest: first you have to knowledge the value of trust brings to public safety. second, why doesn't the trust exist?

some is generational mistrust based on history, some based on things that are occurring right now, strategies and tactics that have very disparate outcomes. we took knowledge that trust in many communities -- not all -- but many communities that trust has been strained. we have to make the commitment to work together to really come up with strategies that show a true partnership. strategies that do not have the collateral damage or just focus on taking people to jail because we will not arrest our way out of crime. but strategies that make communities strong and healthy and help them also become safe communities. host: we're talking with ron davis. the cops program. here to answer your question or comment about the program. democrats --

if you're outside the u.s. and want to contribute, you can also call in. we will show some of the stats about the funding for the cops program this year. we mention $14 billion since the inception in 1994, the budget for 2014 is about $214 million including 151 lead dollars -- 151 lead dollars the book of that for the hiring of police officers. how is the funding for this program fluctuated in receipt years, especially with budget cuts that happened in the government? guest: with all departments through the budget cuts if susan reductions in funding. this year -- last year in 2014 what is been adopted by congress this year, $208 million. in the last three to five years has been studied between that

$220 million to 208 million dollars, but also reduction from the beginning of the program and even during 2009 1 we had over $1 billion. we still have a very strong program. host: when you are asking for funding each are from congress what are the results you are showing from the program? what our members getting for that investment each year? guest: the results would be multifold. one, we're hoping local estate and tribal law enforcement hiring grants. in many cities we have been forced to do budget cuts and reducing officers. as local jurisdictions need to maintain a level of public safety, we as a country need to maintain a level of public safety. we providing assistance by, for example, lester we hired close to 1000 officers, over 215 agencies. we're helping as we develop the knowledge products. if we're doing collaborative reform in baltimore, for example, learning the best

practices of using force investigations for reducing complaints and reducing litigation we are just top in baltimore. we publish those results and process and share with the over 18,000 agencies in the u.s. so they can learn the lessons from baltimore, st. louis county from wherever you're at around the country. i would say we get more agencies that are embracing community policing getting the transformation of the profession, more evidence-based practices, engaging the public safety strategies that reduce crime while building trust. i think we as a country give tremendous returns on our investment when we invest in community policing. host: crack on twitter likes the idea and asks -- guest: yes. it comes in many ways. that is a great question craig . whether it is some kind of probation program in which people really instead of going

to jail, instead of starting down that track in the criminal justice system can pay restitution, can engage in community services and two other things that provide restitution to the community and accountability. the idea of restorative justice is part of community policing, absolutely. host: scott, west virginia, republican line. good morning. you're on with ron davis from the justice department community oriented policing services program. caller: good morning. i would like to hear your opinions on how poverty plays into this. you're saying there is mass incarceration of men of color. i think there's a mass incarceration of people who are impoverished. i think it starts at with the education system when you are a young kid and it moves up. we're going about this the wrong way. we should start with the youth. if we can educate the youth on this is what is when happen you, things would be different. guest: i agree with you.

i think it is poverty does play although, it is clear just by a person living in poverty does not mean they will engage in criminal behavior. but those are some of the social conditions poverty, high school dropout rates are indicators of crime. to the extent, and i agree 100%, we need to not just tell the youth the consequences of crime, but really provide them the equal opportunity to advance. fair and equal opportunity willing to work hard to ask a be successful in this country. i think we provide as opportunities, if we support our young people and doing those opportunities, we also allow our youth to be used until, lies things to mr. behaviors in school that come with youthful exuberance. if we have policies that build those committed is, that is a long-term investment to reduce crime. i think community policing -- that is why mention earlier that community policing has to be all

of the city, all of the county, all of the country has to invest in it. if we are going to fight crime we have to fight through economic policy, education policies, and not just think we could have rushed our way out of it. host: we're talking about committed the oriented syria policing. how does it fit with another syria policing, the broken windows theory of policing where you go after small crimes so they don't become the big crimes? guest: the theory of broken windows, i think the challenge for broken windows is it is what you do with the broken windows. one theory could be the enforcement of small crime but we're seeing that could come in many cases does come have a disparate impact on young communities of color. communities most distressed or over policed and a burden, even through the financial hardship that comes with heavy enforcement. the theory of broken windows is

still very solid, but the question would be, instead of saturating neighborhoods with just poll lease, i think community policing suggests gossip is services in their so we fix the broken windows find out what caused it be broken to begin with. we provide children alternatives from artistic expressions instead of graffiti. that we fix the broken windows but it doesn't have to be strictly through the enforcement loss, it could be for the building of communities. host: you're saying there's a theory that can exist alongside each other and not necessarily at odds? guest: they don't have to be in i think they shouldn't be, but i think the broken windows. taking care of her neighborhood and fixing small things is a solid theory. i think collateral damage for the tactic is ultimately going to destroy the theory trust. host: indianapolis, indiana independent line.

good morning. caller: i thank you for this segment. i want to say, one thing i need -- i think we need to work on seriously is the negative perception that is going on in many communities when it comes to police and the people in the community. as someone who has been [indiscernible] people need to understand the police are the first line of defense against lawbreakers and criminal and we need to do more to try to work together. ultimately, we need the police. host: mr. davis in my top viewers to know your background. eight years as chief of police in east palo alto, 20 years with the oakland police department and now serving with the justice department, their community orienting policing services program. guest: i want to thank jeff. as we look at advancing

community policing and building trust, i say this after 28 years of being an law-enforcement officer, as you mentioned, we can be critical of a policing system without being not supportive of the police itself. we don't have to attack police to question policing tactics or systems. white frankly, as a law-enforcement officer, we have an obligation to continually beside with the programs we do. you said something that is key and that we're in this together. as we sit here and celebrate dr. king's 86th birthday, i think of a phrase or a quote that summarizes that says we live as brothers where we perish together. we live together as brothers or perish together as full. we do have to come together. the police are an important part of the community as any other stakeholder in that community. i think we of this national debate and discussion that police officers have to be at the table.

there has to be true respect. i can think of no more noble profession. my 28 years i think, as was one of the greatest highlights of my professional career followed now serving the president attorney general of this a administration. we have to honor their sacrifice and commitment, but that does not mean we don't have the obligation to still question the tactics we use in the outcomes were looking for and what to hold each other accountable. host: on twitter -- guest: i don't know what could've prevented an individual incident, but i was a community policing when you have that kind of relationship come a it does make us safer for the community and for the police officers themselves. it also allows what i call a moment of pause where things are challenging, when there are controversial shootings, when there are questions to be asked and answered by the police. if you had that relationship before the incident, the people would give you the moment of

pause to see how you respond. this is the police chief. we'll have the benefit of the doubt that you will look into it, that your investigation will be fair and impartial. and if you don't have that trust in a generational mistrust has been simmering for generation after generation, validated by various does from time to time incidences that validate it, then you're asking the community a lot to believe that now this incident somehow would be different. i think you need to build that trust before the incident occurs. you need to have that relationship as soon as possible so when you do face challenges you're facing them together. host: james, democrat line, new jersey. caller: good morning. i would like to speak on the issue of the policeman because we are one of those persons -- can you hear me. host: yes, go ahead. caller: it was very well come. it was the aftermath of a

situation we had here. more than that, i would like to express that if dr. martin luther king were alive today in context, that ferguson would not have happened in his position. dr. martin luther king would have looked into the very committees and realized when he have 100% people of color and 100% governance and look into the police organization in yemen 97% police are quite and maybe one or 2% black, then it is important. in my opinion, dr. martin luther king would have looked at this community and let them know they have a civic duty, in other words, organize the kennedys and participate -- organize the communities and participate in the electoral process. host: thank you.

that brings up the question when communities get these grants and apply as part of your program does part of it have to go toward hiring officers that are more reflective of the communities being policed? host: the grants are competitive and we also have focused areas agencies will kick whether it is building trust reducing violent crime and we always encourage they focus on diversity. we have a program that also focuses on hiring veterans coming back from serving our country. sharing with them the best practices of how you diversify and organization. the benefit of such diversity. but it doesn't require there's a certain percentage. when with a good hiring for a purpose or the spirit of service, a part of that is in fact diversity. we make sure the hiring

practices do not violate any discrimination laws. we make sure their hiring process is open and welcoming to everyone who was to serve. host: would you be against having a specific quoted to say if the community is a certain percentage of one race, that the police office or the officer force should also be reflective of that? guest: i think like anything, it would be very problematic. is our something they can do different? 's or something they're not doing? that would be the challenge. are they basically ensuring there is a fair opportunity? let's say they are. let's say that the best programs in our recruiting and it may take time for them to get to the diversity we would want. i think" in that sense, they yet have a certain percentage, i would caution against versus having this continual drive and

continuing effort to diversify the organization, race, and gender, and reflects the community so can better reflect the community. host: texas, good morning. caller: good morning. happy martin luther king jr. day. my comment is -- it has been forever since i've commented on c-span, so i thank you for the opportunity. by, regards my 16-year-old son who just learned a very harsh lesson in life. his dad is active in the military and sent him in airsoft gun for christmas. his friends are all white. he got out as the bad guy. i took him to the police department with the gun.

i said, if you saw my son in the field, clearly looking like using gauging and gameplay, what would be your response? he said if we were called of the field, we would see it as a threat and we would approach him with this option the gun was real. if you are in the field with that gun, we are going to assume it is real and it may not work out well for you in the end. my son said, mom, my friends to this all the time and they never have a problem. why would a be a problem now? i said son, because you are black and they are white. the police officer did not disagree. because he said, and this was a quite officer, i'm just going to tell you, i've been doing it for a long time, the issue is that it is perception. if someone calls and said they perceive you as being threatening, we have a responsibility to come and we have a responsibility to come with the assumption that there

may be a problem. so i just tell you this story for those people who are listening who wonder why african-americans are so sensitive to the idea that we are over policed and we are assumed lt before innocent, that is white privilege. his white friends will never understand. they play in the field all the time without any incident. i knew the moment my son stepped into that field a 6'3" biracial kid, still conceived as black, someone is going to see him as a threat and those police would have to respond. i would like to hear your ideas about how that part of the system affects policing in our neighborhoods simply because it may not even be police who are perceiving it. if someone calls and perceives it as a threat that will initiate what host: i appreciate the story from pflugerville texas.

>>guest: what you hit on was one of the biggest challenges that policing is facing in the 21st century and that is dealing with the biases that we all have in dealing with implicit rises. in many cases, we talk about racial policing. people think it is a simple discussion between discrimination and not. therefore, if you profile, you must be a racist. the greatest challenge is not the racist the savior -- behavior because that is easy to identify. it is for the day to day biases we all have. to the callers point, how do we view men of color in this country? this is for people of color and not of color. this is for police officers. how do we view our young men of color? if we view them as a threat, then simply reaching for a

wallet could be a furtive moment that could be concerning for officers. we have to start questioning our own implicit biases and understand where they come from and why we have them and take strong steps to make sure that we minimize them and the enforcement of our laws and the criminal justice system. my office has been providing what we have been called training and through st. louis county, we have representatives from st. louis county and ferguson and had a two day session on a pleasant bias. -- implicit bias. the colors right. we should learn where these biases come from and understand the results are still disparate outcomes and can feel like to discrimination to the person receiving them and by knowledge and that implicit bias, it is

not wholesale racism and law enforcement. it does not question the officers integrity and it is saying we are human and we have these implicit viruses -- biases and that we have these biases and we need to understand to take those steps to prevent them. host: ron davis has been running the community policing service offices since being appointed by attorney general eric holder. he is with us for the next 10 minutes or so. on our line for independents. caller: first of all, let me say i have deep admiration for your profession. i myself have a city degree in criminal justice. i did end up going into for personal reasons. i have family members. one more samples and prism. -- one works in folsom prism.

i am here and i wanted to talk to you about -- not only are there other reasons in my opinion that crime has been hide throughout the several decades reasons that aren't due to policing. what i'm getting at is -- i don't know if you have heard of this but this is important in my opinion. i went into science after i got my criminal justice. i went to science into my point -- i've looked at the red crime theory and it states that after we got led out of gasoline, several decades later cried housing going down. -- crime has been going down. people that have less when they are kids are more prone to crime. host: thank you.

we have your point. have you heard of this theory? guest: i have not. but i find it very intriguing. one of the things with community policing is the theory of crime prevention through environmental design. we look at environmental design and it concludes that communities that are forced to live with a lot of toxins and things of that nature -- host: getting into the environmental issues? guest: i would not be dismissive of this outright without a chance of looking at it. host: to south bend indiana on a line for democrats. good morning. caller: i will be real quick. you probably answered most of my questions. i just want to know -- and i do not know this is the scope of your program, after a while, i understand that the job for some police officers can be psychologically stressing and

take a toll. some days during their career, is it mandatory for them to go under some type of evaluation to see if the stresses of a job may be get to be too much for them? and the training -- the training that some of these police officers -- we need to focus more on that. guest: i cannot speak for all agencies but in general, my experience has been that there is a pretty vigorous psychological testing to get the job. there are not periodic checks as much as a department could require. after a shooting, they could require additional counseling. or if the officer's behavior is suggesting something wrong. this is also why it is critical for agencies to embrace things like early intervention systems where you see behavioral shifts

not just misconduct. with regards to training because her is right. we need to look at the training. over the last 20 years we have advanced and training with community policing and we have learned more about the evidence and the science of policing and we need to make sure the training reflects that. the training involves the community and is not just trying to police the community. we need to make sure that we have a new generation of officers fully equipped to serve the community and not just police the community. host: sharon is waiting on a line. caller: good morning. this gentleman is all political talk. i live in missouri. i'm tired of ferguson. if the gentleman our lady black, white whatever -- if they are speeding, get a ticket. this starts in the home parenting.

thank you. host: ron davis? guest: i appreciate the callers frustration. at one level, it is easy to believe that we have a set of laws and simply enforcing those laws is not a negative thing. i can understand the frustration. if you listen to the caller, she has more thought. i would ask her to think about this. if you put 100 cops in one neighborhood in the forestall a laws the likelihood of people getting stopped and ticketed and arrested are going to be different if there only five cops in the neighborhood. one thing we know is that criminal is not attached to race. is attached to conditions of what causes the crime. there is a legitimate concern about being over policed and walking out of your house and being stopped continually because of where you live and what you look like. this is a concern that even the of forces of the law can be disparate.

even if i'm jaywalking in one neighborhood, i could be stopped in another neighborhood. these are legitimate questions that we cannot dismiss. i'm glad the caller shared her views because it is a view we have to take a look at. as dr. king said, if we are going to live together as brothers, the first thing we have to do is understand each other, respect each other's views, even if we disagree with things. sometimes we have to agree to disagree and with this caller i will agree to disagree. host: bill is on a line from illinois. you are on with ron davis. caller: good morning and happy martin luther king day. i have a comment and then i have a suggestion. quotas do not work. in the state of illinois, they were ordered by court order to hire more disabled vets. what they would do is they would take those disabled vets that

they knew would not pass the interview so that they could say that we met the quota. ok, the second thing is -- i think they should be a program going to schools saying oh bay then complain. it should also be on posters and maybe even printed on police cars. there should be a complaint board set up with a doctor, a police officer, and a community leader which is respected. instead of using the police and fire commission, because it is a brotherhood of brothers. they are not going to do anything to punish those brothers of that organization. thank you. host: getting back into some of the trust issues. obey, then complain. what do you think? guest: it is interesting that comment. for many families especially

for families that have young men of color in the family, that is a lesson that -- i have a son who has a drivers license now and that is a lesson we have to tell our kids. it is to obey and that if something is wrong, complained later. that is not a message that is limited to young men of color. obviously for a lot of people of color, that is a primary lesson. the real question is do you want your kids to respect the law -- one thing that we have researched and procedural justice is that people comply with the law is because the want to leave the law is just and that it is impartial. for the best way for people to obey is not the assertion of authority. the best way to achieve compliance is to be respectful and have equitable enforcement of the law. we have science that shows that. i understand about obey.

for those who feel like the laws against them, that there is no opportunity, that it is unjust, they may not be a statement that is as simple as it sounds. i think we need to focus on how to does this young person not only obey, but because they actually want to behave or complied because they believed that they are being asked to do a fair and it is equitable and it is just and for a long -- larger good. host: we will get to a few more of your calls. i want to ask you about the concern in the wake of ferguson about the militarization of police forces around the country. $14 billion that has gone out through the cops program and the justice department since 1994. as any of this been used for some of the things that add to the concern of the police state? the m rats,? the drones?

what can the money be used for and what can it do not use for? guest: it does not include the purchase of vehicles or equipment of that nature general. over the years, there have been congressional appropriations that have allowed certain equipment, but in general, the cops program is about hiring officers to serve for the purpose of developing the best practices in community policing. we have limited and restricted uses to those. we are not provided funding for weaponry of things of that nature. we would report that the white house released its review of the use of military equipment or the 1033 program and the administration is to -- taking to ensure the program really achieves its outcome which is to provide safety.

there is a lot of work being done on that and there's a lot of work to be done on that. i think the present administration has taken a strong stance and supporting that work. host: ann callis do, michigan. -- ann callis do, michigan. caller: thank you for having me on this morning. i wanted to say that this is a really difficult situation to try to tackle. our communities are trying to put something positive together for a situation that is as touchy as this. on one hand, i understand the police's predicament. just by the mere fact that a lot of black communities have a heavier police force due to the nature of what goes on to those neighborhoods i understand are the dangers few who may abuse their authority. do you think it would be