i appreciate you having me here tonight and thank you and we will see you next year. bye. [applause] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] you look at gender equality laws of the civil rights. and the civil rights act. -- and the civil rights act. >> next, and look at the u.s. relations with cuba. they met in fort lauderdale to discuss u.s. cuba relations. this is hour and 10 minutes. >> thank you, i am happy to be

here and proud of the panel you are about to your from starting with the moderator -- healed from starting with the moderator. tim, you may know his name, he works for radio in miami and is the americas editor. the hotel latin america for 25 years with newsweek and time magazine -- he has covered latin america for 25 years with newsweek and time magazines. using hand of person you want to asking questions and i encouraged him to the is the kind of person -- he is the kind of person you want asking questions and i encouraged him to share his comment. >> thank you very much and thank you to calvin and to the tower forum for the invitation and the

opportunity for this important discussion. i would emphasize that this is a constructive discussion. this issue can arouse passion here and i would remind everyone that everyone agrees that our aim is to change the status quo in communist cuba. the debate we are having is the best way to bring that about as we now need or the castro era -- near the end of the castro era. i would remind us of the sign i saw on the methodist church, let us slander no one. [laughter] it is there, you can check it out. i would ask the panel to come over and let me introduce them our distinguished panel, i should say.

at the end of the table where is grown theaters -- there is coral gables mayor head of the human interests section in havana. he was best known for traveling the island to help dissidents set of libraries and for his work the human government barred him from leaving havana -- cuban government barred him from leaving havana. [laughter] it was ambassador in countries like paraguay and was elected mayor in 2011. let's welcome him. [applause] his left is frank, the executive director for the center for a free cuba and washington, d.c.. they promote human rights and a transition to democracy.

he was born in cuba and is a strong defender of the trade embargo and has been repeatedly featured in national newspapers and appeared on television programs ranging from the pbs news hour to foxnews. they also testified before congressional committees and often speaks at universities. thank you very much for coming. [applause] to his left is alfredo, the founding director of the human committee for democracy. he was also born in cuba and is a veteran of the bay of pigs invasion. [applause] he was in fact the president of the day veterans association -- eight of veterans association but his call for peaceful -- bay of pu pigs veterans

association but his eventual call for relationships with cuba would do is break with that group. [applause] and then carlos is the national director of cuba now. he is the son of an attorney and human exiles. he is a former director of the miami-dade democratic party and served on the 2012 presidential campaign of venezuelan opposition leader and enrique. his articles have appeared in the huffington post among others and frequently on tv including cnn. welcome, rick. [applause] i want to start with you and i want to start where we left off

a few weeks ago during an owner conversation on wlrmnn that has to do with the central premise that president obama laid out for why he undertook this very dramatic, very historic change in the u.s. policy towards cuba. and that premise was, as he's dead in the state of the union address as well, if something -- the said in the state of the union address as well, if something is not working after 50 years, you have to change. you pointed out that the central premise, you felt, was wrong. that while the of isolating cuba and the embargo of not -- three policy of isolating cuba and the embargo had not led to a regime change, it has been a success. i wonder if you can tell us what you think it has worked in the

central premise of obama's policies flawed. >> first of all and want to thank the tower forum for inviting me. my views stem from my experience, three years in cuba. my personal view is that nobody's policy has worked in cuba. if you look at what has happened over the last 55 years, you find that all of the countries in the world except the united states have engaged with cuba. you have created, such tourists, invested -- very have created sent tourists, invest -- they have traded sent tourists invested. it is a policy that, unless

there is something, american exceptionalism or we have democratic picks he does the fact that americans want to go there, pixie dust, -- pixie dust, the fact that americans want to go there, i don't see it. >> i wanted to ask you all the what made you -- off the bat what would you do to the conclusion that engage in communist and what was the best way to? >> when the soviet union disappeared in the cold war was over i came to the conclusion that if we continued on the same path that have not worked for so many years and that every president from kennedy for the present president have tried to negotiate with cuba and every time cuba does something so that the embargo will not end because

the embargo was the one thing that protects cuba and gives it an excuse for everything that is wrong within the island and keeps it from doing what is right. denying civil rights, denying political rights, denying everything because they are at war with the united states because no friendly country embargo is another friendly country, therefore they are embargo is another friendly country, therefore they are at war -- embargoes another friendly country, therefore they are at war. i thought that the future of cuba would continue to be going on as it has been going on and i thought that it was time that humans started talking to each other in a civic dialogue that would bring about -- cubans started talking to each other in a civic dialogue that would bring about human rights.

unfortunately that has not happened and the reason it has not happened is the same reason the embargo was still in place because the cuban government does not want the embargo lifted or opening to the political situation in cuba. what is a simple cuba and to do? -- cuban to do? continue arguing the point? after the two or three historical figures are dead changes will come about, and it will be generational changes? the united states government and the cuban people in exile must begin a dialogue with the next generation of government, that is the only thing that will about a better cuba, civil rights and political rights. -- bring about a better cuba, civil rights and political rights. >> if i could ask you to refrain from applause.

when president obama announced he wanted to reestablish diplomatic ties, you said that he could not have made the decision at a worse time because cuba seems to be at one of the weakest points in terms of international patrons, venezuela is on the ropes and therefore this is the point to tighten the screws rather than engage cuba and i wonder if you could elaborate on why historically this was a mistake? >> first of all, let me thank the forum for inviting me. like most humans i would like to see the day -- cubans, i would like to see the day when there is a group of people that can come together to talk about an issue without being afraid of being taken away by the police. that is something we have to keep in mind. what i said when the president

made the announcement was a little more than that. i said for example that the president had talked about transparency and conducted for 18 months a secret negotiation that you peoplkey people in the state department did not learn about. i also thought that being a cuban i do not know why the president thinks that talking to run castro -- raul castro could determine the future of cuba. i also said that the president announced a policy that is full of misunderstanding and misconception. he read some things from the teleprompter that are really nonsense i am sorry to say. when people say the president wants to reestablish relations with cuba, the united states has had diplomatic relations with

cuba since 1977. the american mission in cuba is the largest diplomatic mission in cuba and has been for many years, there are more american medicine cuba then canadians or russians. it is not for a lack -- american diplomats in cuba then canadians or russians. i question the notion of saying that if something is not worked, you have to do something else. the something else has to work. as the ambassador on my right said, the french, the canadians the japanese, the spanish, all of them have sent millions of tourists to cuba. all of them have treated with cuba. -- traded with cuba. that has not changed the oppressive regime in cuba. what the president is doing is

changing from a policy that many people think has not worked to a policy that we know has not worked and that is my answer. >> why do most cuban-americans of your younger generation believe that it is time to engage the islanders? >> we have lived under this policy our entire lives and have yet to see it yield any sort of result whatsoever. sorry. we have seen that for as long as i have been around, almost as long as i have been around our policy towards cuba has been dictated by south florida politics, not by the sober assessment of the right approach to that country or what is in the best interests of the united states. i have seen that process, i grew up in a household where my parents were staunchly in favor

of the embargo and believed that trying to choke the economy was going to be the best way to bring about change and i grew up believing the same. it was not until i had an opportunity to visit in 2000 that i realized that the policy was grossly overreaching and was aggravating the issue. i got to go on a family trip where i got to meet a couple of young entrepreneurial cubans in havana who were basically street hustling, making ends meet by working with tourists and doing whatever they had to do to raise money so they could feed families. their dream was to start their own businesses in miami, leave the island and start their own businesses in miami. and i would ask them why and they would say there is no opportunity here. if everybody that is young and with any sort of drive and

initiative, if their dream is to get out of this country, this is never going to change. and i thought, what are we doing to help remedy this? and that is what i realized the answer was absolutely nothing. our policy is aggravating the situation. instead of bringing the international community together to exert pressure to the castro regime, we have isolated ourselves from the international immunity, they have run the other way because they do not want to be seen allying with this overreaching policy. it has done nothing to help civil society on the island, to empower them in any way. it has given us no leverage with the cubans to help push for changes. they do not respond to basically anything that we say on this side. overall it has not achieved its objectives, it has not ushered

in a democratic transition. when you grow up your entire life seeing that this is the approach and it is not doing anything and that when we engage with cubans and open up the flow of resources they take every opportunity to get ahead you see that there is an opportunity to do something that can render the old system irrelevant and that is why folks my age seem to be open for a different policy. >> let's again go back to the rationale for president obama's policy changes. he believes that while the new policy will not democratize cuba overnight, i think his feeling is that it will at least position the united states more effectively to take advantage of change should come when the castro's disappear from the same -- should it come when the

castro's disappear from the scene. you made the point a few days ago that you do not think that normalization is really going to have a chance to occur under this process. >> i don't think it will because i think the cubans also said very clearly, read my lips recently, that we will not allow anything that you do to change our view of what we want to be with the political system. they have been very clear, we want to the money that he you will give to the military which runs the economy there and use it to continue to perfect communism. there is a different definition of diplomacy, we have diplomats in each other's country. we have the largest embassy except we do not have the name of the door and cannot use the american flag. i do not think that diplomatic

relations help much, what we need is normalization and are at least 15 things that need to be done and i have been in talks over the three years i was there. they need to allow our diplomats to normally pursue what diplomats do in part of what we do is defending our values. -- and part of what we do is defending our values. the cubans restrict us to 51 employees and restrict the number of tdys we have so that we cannot be effective. to interfere with the diplomatic pouch, they refused to have -- they interfere with the diplomatic pouch, they refused to have a postal system, they will not allow the internet for normal cubans. if you are a canadian anyone but an american diplomat for your residence, -- and you invite a

american diplomat to your residence, cubans will refuse to go. the point is, unless we think they are dumb, they listen to what the president says. we are going to do this because we will empower the cuban people. the cubans have said we will not allow them to be empowered. the view that somehow they are so dumb -- they know they can control it. they have controlled everybody else's efforts to do this they are not going to do it and allow normalization is that would mean that diplomats can travel around -- because that would mean that diplomats can travel around. normalization i predict will not happen, i hope it will, when the castro's are gone there is a chance. until the cuban government

begins creating institutions to allow cuban people to participate. >> do you have --i know you want to make a rebuttal but if i could ask you first, to follow up, another point that you have made, this cannot work because we gave too much away to the cubans we made too many concessions. i wonder if you can address that point. >> if you look at what the president has done some of the president is talking about doing, it is basically what the cuban government has been asking for a long time. when you hear some folks talking about cuban policy, after put that on a blackboard and say this is what the cuban government wants. the cuban government wants the embargo lifted, they want to be removed from the list of

countries that support international terrorism despite the fact that in cuba, an american terrorist who killed a police officer escaped to cuba and if you go to the fbi website you will see that one of those terrorists is one of the 10 most wanted. cuba is the only country in the list of countries that support terrorism who has publicly acknowledged that there is a murderer of american police officer was welcome better. -- who is welcome there. the other thing, i wanted to say something which again, when you hear the cuban government talk, they say that the american foreign-policy on cuba is based on south florida.

as is the cuban americans have not earned the right to have a point of view. -- as if the cuban americans have not only right to have a point of view. cuban americans have been here for 50 years, they pay taxes they serve in the armed forces, they have a point of view. if you want to go to the vietnam war, i can show you where you can put your hand on the names of cuban-americans who have died serving the american flag. i think the cuban-americans have the same rights as the jewish community and the black community and anyone else to have a point of view. what controls american policy towards cuba is not the cuban-american community. what controls the american policy towards cuba are the actions of the castro dictatorship. it is not the cuban-americans who send a large police contingent to venezuela to beat

up dissidents and train the venezuelan police forces. it is not the cuban exiles would like to go back to the cold war. the president would like to forget raul would like to go back. . while the american diplomats were in cuba, a soviet spy ship showed up in havana. fidel castro has in cuba's national bank, look it up in your newspaper. there has been a lot of fraud with medicaid and medicare and at least in one case, $300 million were stolen from medicaid and medicare. that money is now in cuba's national bank. is a savings account -- is that a savings account?

from the administration say to give up the money, it is your -- you wouldn't the administration say -- food the administration say to give up the money, it is your money. >> if i did ask you to follow up on that point. -- if i can ask you to follow up on that point which is a central one, the cuban policy in the united states has been based on cuban exile anger which, albeit justified, obviously, is not the basis for sound foreign-policy perhaps. i wonder if you could address that. >> that is precisely the point and that is why it is so important for president obama has done. "now u.s. foreign policy towards cuba -- up until now u.s. foreign policy towards cuba did not exist.

it was to get political contributions wealthy cubans -- from wealthy cubans in new jersey and florida, that is what has determined policy until now. for the first time there is a foreign policy towards cuba and that is what obama is doing, he is taking the best interest of the united states into account and not electoral policy or political contributions. the fact of the matter is that we are going to have to deal with cuba because changes are coming. like i said before, there are only two or three still walk around and they have more than 85 or 89 years old. we cannot last much longer. -- they cannot last much longer. you have a new generation taking over and if you look at the central communist party, 90% are under 55 years of age. they were not with fidel castro,

they do not have the same ideological link like fidel castro. those people want changes in their going to do their own form of government and the united states -- and they are going to do their own form of government and the united states should be already talking to them because you know what will happen when castro disappears. miami, florida and havana, cuba are going to be china and hong kong. that is what is going to happen. a tremendous flow of businesses going back and forth and you better start looking forward to that event which is coming sooner rather than later. >> this policy is essentially a new bet replacing an old bet in that we are betting that when the castro's are gone we will see a gorbachev-like presence in

cuba that we are situated to take advantage of. >> i do not know anybody who thinks that something that has not worked in 55 years will work in 55 years. the policy has not were because it has nothing to do with u.s. foreign policy, -- worked because it has nothing to do with u.s. foreign policy, it has to do with political policy. you can contribute to two or three subcommittees and most of those germans or from states that do not know were cuba is. -- chairman come from states that do not know were cuba is. > if you can follow up on that point. >> to respond the year that castro shot down the rescue planes, 1996, was a presidential election year. clinton was up for reelection

and there was a bill making the rounds in congress that was not seen as having any shot of getting past because it was so -- passed because it was so overreaching, it had this constitutionally suspect extraterritorial provisions. it did not seem like it had much traction. codified all embargo sanctions and puts them in the hands of congress and conditions the lifting of all of them on a series of conditions that the cuban government must meet and it must meet all of them before we can with even one of these. the bill was not expected to go anywhere but the cubans shot down the rescue planes and it was an election year so clinton signed the bill. he recognized in his biography that it was good election year politics in florida but that it tied his hands to lift the

embargo in the future in exchange for negotiations for positive changes so it very much is about south florida politics. as far as what the bet is, you cannot micromanager transition from coral gables -- micromanage a transition from coral gables or washington. it has to be homegrown democracy, they have to want it and the best way that we can help facilitate that is by opening up the flow of contact resources, information through the cuban people so that they can be in a better position to make demands from that government. that is the bet of the policy, that we are empowering all sectors of the cuban people so that they are in a better position "for on the table --

they can put food on the table and provide for their basic needs. >> what about this argument that in so doing we are giving too much away? >> we are not giving anything away because we are not making any concessions. part of the problem with helms-burton is a created the idea that somehow removing sanctions -- it created the idea that somehow removing sanctions that have not produced intended outcomes for steps that we want the cubans to take our somehow critical commodities. they are not. we are replacing a bad policy with a more promising policy in the best interest of the united states and the cuban people. we are not giving anything away. the value of failed policy is zero for everybody except those who have benefited from the status quo that the policy

create. -- creates. it is not a concession, it is a reform of policy. >> when i first visited cuba in 1990, the soviet union are just collapsed and the special period, one of the worst economic periods in cuban history --the economy was in freefall and the suffering was terrible -- and every day i would walk around and see empty shelves and empty tables and houses etc. i kept saying to myself, there is no way they can survive this. and yet somehow they did. we have come out to a point where venezuela is about to collapse, the newest sponsor. again, people are saying there is no way they can survive this. but journalistically and empirically i have to look back and remind myself that they always seem to find a way to

survive it. i think that one of the reasons is that unilateral embargoes do not seem to work. one of the reasons we confronted apartheid in south africa was because that was a multilateral international effort and those do work were as unilateral efforts historic -- whereas unilateral efforts historically do not. because venezuela is so weak right now i would like to go back to that point your argument that this was not the right time to do this because this was the time that we could've put the squeeze on cuba. >> look, cuba survived in part because one, it is an island, too, it has very good security forces. they have been giving life preserver's after the end of the soviet union from venezuelan oil.

they always seem to find a sugar daddy when things are tough. the liberalizing terms of micro-enterprises, they did it when i was there -- very liberalize in terms of micro-enterprise they did it when i was there and when things are doing well, they cut back on licenses. they have restaurants but a lot of those -- some are individuals but a lot of those are relatives in the military that have a way to invest money they have gotten from corruption in enterprises. what they tend to do is in bad times they open up a little bit and when the money comes in, they tighten up again. i think that this was a very difficult time for them. it is very unlikely that venezuela and russia and iran will be in a position with oil prices plunging to continue to provide all of that money. so one of the reasons they were

able to survive is that the europeans had invested billions of billions in the island and they never pay them back. what they want from the embargo they want american loans guaranteed because they have never paid back the loans given by the other countries and they are not about to pay this back. that is what they really want, they want the taxpayers on the hook to pay for these foodstuffs that when they do come in, and by the way they can buy anything organic from the united states and have been able to for 10 years, they have bought billions of dollars. medicine, anything they want to buy they can. all that is left is that bathing suit tourists cannot go and we do not allow loans to a government that will not pay them back. i think that what happens is that we throw them a lifeline at

a time that will give them renewed life for the regime because all of that money from american tourist the few that will find rooms in havana because most artful, -- are full that will go to the military that runs the sheets ers -- cigars and rum. my view is that when people say it has not worked, back to what i have said originally, nobody's policy has worked. engagement is the most failed policy because the rest of the world has been doing it for 50 years. >> what about that argument that fidel castro never would have agreed to normalization in the first place if he had not been so desperate. and that desperation is the best argument for why we should not have pursued engagement right now and continued with what we are doing. >> fidel castro has not agreed

to normalization, he just said in honduras that the only way he would normalize relations with cuba is if the united states paid for all of the damages going to the billions of dollars. >> it was a trillion dollar figure at one point. >> they do not want normalization, that is what people do not get into their minds. the cuban government does not want normal relations with the united states, it goes against their best interests. they want things as they are and the most terrible thing in cuba right now is that everybody wants to leave cuba. i have not heard in the past 10 years and he cuba. they all want -- that feels love for cuba. they all want to leave. you do not see one single person who gets off of an airplane whose as i want to go back to cuba because i want to liberate cuba.

their want to come to the united states because they want to send money back to my family. they are acting not as political refugees who want to change the government, they are acting as immigrants. that is the most terrible thing happening in cuba because the cuban people have lost loved for the island. especially the young people. >> briefly, if you could address that point. why should we have let the embargo work? >> that has never been my point. my point is that the embargo should be used to condition real change in cuba. nobody is defending -- first of all, we keep saying embargo that is not the same thing as 1960. the ideal that nothing has been done in cuba and all of this time -- idea that nothing has been done in cuba in all of that time is not true. the ambassador distributed

30,000 for wave radios. that is the -- shortwave radios. that is the strategy of radio free europe. those things are important but neither the cuban government nor the advocates for the government want to concede that. on the one hand, he says that it is just a south florida votes or whatever. by the way, what he says about contributions, that is not only cuba. any political scientist knows how congress works. you should be concerned about middle east policy. my point is that this is not a cuba specific issue. >> we all know that>>. >> let me go back to what i want to say. >> quickly. >> the cuban policy is not

simply the votes or the democracy or the contribution but lies. i do not know if you know what happened but there were fouer young man, one born in new jersey and another in vietnam. cuba destroys those plans in international airspace. one spy had something to do with that. that man was sentenced to two life sentences. and that man who has something to do with the death of americans, was exchanged by the president. and the mother of at least one of those who died told me it was like seeing my son die one more time. how could it be? i guess anybody that wants to kill americans can then get some

government to blackmail the president and free them for the murder? i think we have to take that into account and american lives are at risk. not simply a game. when you say that people benefited -- let me say this. the always talks about people that benefited from the policy. what about the people who will benefit from the new policy? what about the businessmen that you work for them want to go to cuba and pay $20 a month in an environment in which you do not have a labor union or the right to strike and humans do not know about freedom? -- cubans do not know about freedom? there have been thousands of political prisoners in cuba who want to stay in cuba and love cuba. whenever somebody says to you that all cubans, that is not true. >> can you finish up on that point?

>> just a couple of points. it was mostly driven by south florida politics, we have seen is that cuba is no longer the third rail of south florida politics the way it used to be, we saw that with the 2012 campaign where obama won 50% of the cuban-american vote and in the most recent campaign or charlie crist one close to 50% -- where charlie crist won close to 50% of the cuban-american vote. what i want to go back to his a couple of the other points that have been mentioned. i will cry to be very brief. t --r try to be very brief. we call the castro government lawyers and crooks but why when they make a full throated demand for the lifting of the embargo do we think that is what they want?

think about that for a second. second cuban gdp dropped 35% and they survived that. if they lose venezuelan subsidies, the gdp drop would be about 10%. but it gives to 20% the where near 35% -- let's say it gets 20%, nowhere near 35%. if they were going to bow down that is not based on reality. would they would have to do is open up the economy more. -- what they would have to do is to open up the economy more. if it was not dead already, he will pass away soon. after 10 years of retirement, this is how effective it has been. his brother is stepping down and has instituted term limits, we will see if they honor that. they are at the twilight of this era.

we know there is a transition in place. we be standing on the sidelines and waiting and hoping for the best without trying to play a constructive role, should we be engaging -- or should we be engaging? i think we can be more influential by playing a constructive role in the present. >> and that role, and that's the last question i want to address to the panel before we opened it up to questions because this is a business-oriented group, i think it is important that we make this point as has the top u.s. negotiator for normalization for the state department, she has repeatedly may be point that the focus of -- made the point that the focus is on empowering fledgling entrepreneurs in cuba, that by giving them more economic power and therefore

more civil independence in cuba, you undermine perhaps not in the way that solidarity did in poland you nonetheless undermine communist authority -- but you nonetheless undermine communist authority and that is the endgame, empowering these capitalists so you can undermine the castro regime. you believe that is a flawed approach? >> definitely. >> if i could ask all of you and keep answers brief. >> the average income in cuba is $20 and the cuban government knows how to quarantine money to the military that runs repressive forces. the idea that micro enterprises by supporting them, they will be able to change the government, the government has said that they are not changing. and they know how to control that so i think the idea of

trickle-down will empower the cuban people, they will be empowered when the cuban government invites them to participate. >> some of the most successful human businessmen in florida have been traveling to cuba to look at the possibilities of doing business in cuba. they have all come back with very interesting opinions. but one in particular, carlos, what with the catholic church and started -- went with the catholic church and started doing seminars about teaching cubans to run small enterprises. there were so successful that the cuban government put him in a plane and send him back to miami. that is how fearful they are of private business. >> if you believe that the cuban government does not want to receive millions of dollars to support their government, which

is what is happening under this policy, and i guess i can so you the seven mile bridge or something. -- then i guess i can sell you the seven mile bridge or something. there are lots of people that trade with cuba and do not get paid. i know about the cuban-american businessmen want to go to cuba and i know some of them gowho go to mexico. but they do not want cuban workers, they get $20 a month which is a great attraction because they do not have to have a labor union and if a worker says something about the environment, they are sent to prison. we want them to not be like china or vietnam, we want them to be like the united states costa rica. -- or costa rica.

the idea that you are missing an opportunity, the u.s. will never miss, it is called nine miles. the island will never move anywhere in the cuban people have known for many years that the american people have been on their side -- and the cuban people have known for many years that the american people have been on their side. and now the american government is on the side of ronald castro. -- raul castro. >> the two largest protest in cuba were actually protests by entrepreneurs who were protesting -- that is the truth. >> there was one with 500 people in the streets. >> i know you do not want to recognize entrepreneurs. if i may, it is my turn. amnesty has called for a lifting of the embargo and so as human

rights watch. -- has human rights watch. it goes down to whether we want to micromanage a transition and just hope that by demanding we will do everything -- they will do everything we want and empowering civil society. civil society is not just a handful of dissidents that it really a particular policy here, it is everybody that is opposed to the government, the entire opposition movement. entrepreneurs, academics artists, anybody seeking to increase autonomy from the state. they are the folks we should be helping and that is what this policy does. i would point out that in the end what the obama administration is hoping is that business people like you will be a will to directly invest with more help entrepreneurs -- or help entrepreneurs. >> we really should open it up

to questions from you. sure. ok. >> the question is, oil prices are at a historic low right now. the way off the cuban coast because millions of dollars of damage -- drilling off the cuban coast code caused millions of dollars of damage in south florida -- could cause millions of dollars of damage in south florida. >> event companies that were looking for oil, they drove and they did not -- drilled and they did not find commercial oil. we have talked about migration

hurricanes, illegal immigrants those sorts of things. we can talk about that and we have talked about that. >> next question? >> excuse me. current policy is a lot of people that have come from cuba once they get here tuesday. -- to styay. because people can come here and be allowed to go back, we have criminal guidelines of people coming from cuba and ripping off medicare and medicaid and doing insurance fraud which leads to premiums going through the roof. i know you all do not think the embargo should be lifted or relations changed but the cuban adjustment act be changed -- true to the cuban adjustment act be changed? -- should the cuban adjustment

act be changed? >> i believe that people that break the law should go to jail. >> is the human adjustment act -- cuban adjustment act responsible for the phenomenon? >> two that i would say there is no mexican adjustment act, no salvadoran adjustment act. the cubans will continue to come unless the united states has a serious policy that if you break the law, we will go after you and unless the american government takes a look at the operations of the cuban security services here because sending $300 million to the human bank, it is not just a person -- cuban bank, it is not just a person, it is the cuban security service. >> i think that we are very close to seeing the end of the cuban adjustment act.

there is a strong feeling that just in congress but in the county commissions in miami-dade county. as far as medicare fraud, there is medicare fraud all over the united states, just not cubans are committing medicare fraud it is a crime and should be punished. but the cuban adjustment act is something that's time has passed and there is a strong sentiment in the u.s. congress and florida politicians that it is time to end and for the first time in the past couple of months we're hearing a debate about that even in the miami-dade county commission. >> next question? >> hi./ with all the demands that raul castro has made on the united states, i am just wondering has anything been said or done to

try to replace the assets that our original cubans left behind when they came to the united state. many people were left penniless. >> one of the things that will have to be discussed in the long and frustrating process of normalization if we ever get there will have to be the foreign claims settlement commission there are 1600 claims that total seven or -- seven billion dollars or $8 billion for american citizens whose property was taken. there are the people who left their goods on the island because they were not allowed to leave with rings. that will be a big discussion and has been a discussion with a lot of countries and normally you get $.10 on the dollar. that is one of the major issues to be discussed and what the hcubans will say is that you

are was $100 billion because you have decided not to trade with us. we will never do that and they want guantanamo back. >> this is an interesting aspect that will affect all the cubans here. as far as the cubans properties, there were very few human properties that were actually confiscated -- cuban properties that were actually confiscated. most of the cubans abandoned the property and it is just like in florida, if you do not pay your taxes in seven years, you lose your property. that is one of the biggest debates that has never been settled in eastern europe yet. what happens when you leave your property and you do not pay taxes for seven years? that is one thing. the other thing is that cuba has

settled for an asset loans with everybody except for the united states and the reason, even though they made an offer to settle the question of u.s. property interests, it is because they wanted to settle the property interests of the confiscated of american properties at the value that the american companies reported in cuba for tax purposes. they had already got tax deductions here for 10 times what they reported the value of the taxes in cuba. and that is why cuba came to an agreement with every country in the world except for the united states because for instance a company that lost a form, a u.s. company that lost a farm, a tax deduction of $1000. the reported the value in cuba for $100. -- may reported the value in cuba for $100. -- they reported the value in cuba for $100.

>> a quick rebuttal to that point. >> i am sorry to have to say but that is the position that the cuban government promotes and the idea that cubans left their property i guess we can say to the jews that left germany, you left your property. we came with nothing. we came with five dollars in the pocket. the view that the cubans left their country, the cubans were forced out. people were imprisoned, people were executed and now you are repeating -- >> you're going to take the property from the people living in it for 55 years? that is the same argument in eastern europe. >> you're changing the argument. >> we do need to get to other questions. >> going back to the last of the subject of the cuban adjustment,

i agree with frank that criminals should be prosecuted and thrown in jail. but not having normalized diplomatic relationships, not having banking relations, of incredible restrictions makes it -- having travel restrictions makes it harder to go after these people than otherwise having these relations because if it is just cash only if we make it harder for law enforcement to go after these people, how are we going to get them? the cuban adjustment act allows this and so does the embargo. it seems very immoral at this juncture to say we are going to close the door to everyone else trying to come here seeking a better life's though the same regime is still in power yet received this policy in place trying to destroy your economy -- we keep this policy in place

trying to destroy your economy. we should revisit our legislative framework towards cuba so we can have a coherent policy to the island. if there have been enough changes to revisit the adjustment, we can revisit the embargo. >> questions from the side of the room. young lady back there. >> thank you gentlemen. i understand that raul castro as a son who serves as a captain in the cuban army and trained in russia. is he no longer being groomed for the next generation? >> nobody really knows. i personally believe the human government wants a secession -- cuban government wants a sucession, not a

transition. there were a series of cartoons saying it's possible that he was being groomed and also one or more of the five heroes, the spies that have come back could be groomed. they have gone to prison. remain firm with a regime and become heroes. i wouldn't overlook the possibility of one of the relief -- released murderers being groomed. we just have to wait and see. i think it will be a succession. he doesn't want to transition to democracy. >> anybody else have thoughts on that? >> the changes in cuba will be generational. i truly believe that the government loves castro's sons are nephews to take over, but i don't think it's going to happen.

the central committee, like i said before, or than 90% over 55 and they have their own program. >> quickly. >> when you look at cuba, you have to remember north korea. he is the brother of the dictator. and they want to stay in power indefinitely. the relationship with north korea, just a couple of years ago, cuba sent warplanes on a north korean ship that was caught in the panama canal. it is not simply raul demand' but actions well to take into account. >> you have a question? >> thank you for being here. i agree the embargo has not worked. [inaudible]

to empower themselves, that's ridiculous. i came when i was seven. my father was a doctor. they left everything. [inaudible] [applause] >> if i can address the part about the entrepreneurs. the cubans, when i was there too troubled to vietnam, malaysia, came back and told the party, economic support to their but if they kept allowing economic inequalities that come from economic growth, they would lose political power. demand for elections and

internal elections in china. he came back and said were not were not going to allow that and pass a law that they were going to penalize other illicit activities and that's when they cracked down entrepreneurs. they know if you keep the income , the $20 a month, scrounging for food every day, they won't be taking about higher-level things. that is their goal. not to allow what we want to happen because they don't want to give a political power. they've said. were not doing it. >> whenever we ask the question are we so naive to think that cubans will all of a sudden do the right thing? no one is making that argument. it is how do you change, how do change in game so you are forcing them to open up or to take steps in the right direction? we know the name of the game for cubans is control. they are more concerned by staying in power than anything else.

to be up to do that, they need to open up their economy to some degree. they can no longer depend on one sugar daddy, as was mentioned earlier as they did in previous decades. even now, they have a pivoting away from that model to training with the rest of the world -- trading with the rest of the world. they have allowed for norse to run their own businesses because they can no longer keep them on the state payroll. you have licensed entrepreneurs operating in cuba. compared to what folks make here, it is a pittance buff or a lot of them, it has been life-changing. i don't know a single entrepreneur who is satisfied with their lot. all of the heavy-handed restrictions they have to deal with in cuba. traders there are like here, they want to grow their businesses and fight governments to get rid of unnecessary regulations to trade. and that is what different norse

are doing. -- entrepreneurs are doing. they don't have a choice. in that opening, we should do everything we can to help those entrepreneurs. >> one last question from over here. this will have to be our last question. [inaudible] >> the idea behind the policymaking is for the government to become civil independence. how many years would it take? 5? 10? we don't actually have to go back. china or vietnam.

[inaudible] today, if you google china [inaudible] ultimately, the question is, if you think it is going to change your generation has to decide. [inaudible] what has obama announced that would change cuba? ultimately, any policy should be driven by a principal of freedom and liberty or not.

that is the question. >> my generation, look, plenty of people in your generation that agrees with us. after 15 years of trying the same thing, we should try something new. it hasn't worked. >> and it is not new. >> let me finish, if i may. as far as to the china is example, a very convenient one because we have these communist countries. those cultures cannot be more different from cuban culture ok? the chinese values greater harmony far more the individual rights, as a culture. you would be hard-pressed to find a more individualist culture than the cuban. there's a reason the chinese of has not succeeded anywhere else other than asia. thinking that cuba will turn it to china or vietnam is not really based on much.

we had a dissidents this week and testified in congress for -- both of them said, were not the chinese, were not vietnam. they said the cuban government cannot survive that china could survive. and so, we need to be a little bit were cognizant of the differences between those countries and these. there are many other transitions from communism to capitalist countries or totalitarian regimes two democracies that did work and did benefit from greater engagement. as far as when the changes going to occur -- this again is the polling. look at a whole eastern bloc, former soviet countries. the -- again, thinking with the put a timetable goes back to the mindframe of trying to micromanage and this from

outside instead of charging to empower the people in the ground. that is what this policy is. you're talking about freedom it's about getting the government out of the way at empowering individuals to be the agents of change. i'm sorry if you don't believe it. >> i will give you the last word very briefly. >> the present policy is empowering the cuban government and that is where the money is going. it's not going to the cuban people. [applause] as far as the other place, the u.s. government has been trying to do that by sending laptops and helping the dissidents. i know friends from china and the idea of the chinese it really do not care about freedom i think is unfair to the chinese people. " i didn't say they didn't care about freedom. as a culture -- >> will have to leave it there. please join me in thanking this distinguished and lively panel.

[applause] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> on the next washington journal, a reporter with the wall street journal on subprime lending and washington post reporter on the policy issues facing u.s. states. washington journal, like every day at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> here are some of our featured programs for this weekend on the c-span networks. saturday morning starting at 10:00 a.m., live on c-span, our nation's governors get together to discuss issues. guests included danny meyer, and maria of fox business news. and sunday morning at