's speech to the u.s. congress. susan: we want to invite laurie robinson, the cochair on 20th century policing. both during the clinton and obama administrations, she served as the assistant attorney general for justice programs. i should tell our audience that we invited mr. -- ms. robinson's cochair. mr. ramsey got about the listeners that any police commissioner could get on thursday when he learned that one of his officers were shot to death in the line of duty in philadelphia. we regret that news, and certain play -- and certainly also sorry we couldn't be here with us this week. kevin johnson is a national reporter for "usa today." thanks for being here. and sari horwitz is a national

reporter for the "washington post." kevin: professor robinson, thank you for coming. i know you have been involved in a real intensive review over the last 90 days. and in one of the first listening sessions of the task force, you heard from a number of police groups, including the fraternal order of police, and the international association of chiefs of police. some of whom sounded very -- fairly defensive about how the ferguson situation had cast policing currently. and i do want to say resistant to some of the questions about police tact x, but i wonder -- tactics, but i wonder after your review has been published, do you feel there is a recognition on the part of law enforcement that changes are necessary? professor robinson: that is a very important question to be

asking, kevin, because obviously going forward, policing in this country, of course, is very -- really a local function. we have close to 18,000 police departments in this country at the state and local level. not a federal function. not in that -- not a national function as it is in european countries, for example. so we are really looking to state and local departments as the groups that need to lean forward and embrace the need for change. as my cochair, chuck ramsey, says, it is really a need of the law enforcement to really own this issue. your question is very much an important one. kevin: do you feel like they are owning it? do feel like there is this recognition that, hey, some things that came from ferguson are -- our problems or challenges that we really need

to confront? professor robinson: i think the answer is that it is a mixed picture. my own view is an optimistic one. that is based on several factors. for example, i have been active with the international association of chiefs of police. and chairman of one of their committees. at the international annual meeting this october, this past october, which was after ferguson, i heard so much talk from cheech -- many of whom -- cheifs -- many are from smaller department around the country -- who were very cognizant of what happened in ferguson. andrea talking about the kinds of changes that needed to be made in terms of outreach to communities, re-examining perhaps training, and things that needed to be done and changed. so that gives me hope. the second thing that gives me hope it's just the dialogue that

is now occurring nationally on these issues, and the kinds of testimony that we heard from witnesses at all of our listening sessions. we heard from chiefs better undertaking innovation, that are -- have undertaken these kinds of things. and probably even more importantly, we heard from community members. representatives from advocates who are coming forward in cities like cincinnati and other jurisdictions who said, we have had problems and we are making progress. so those of things that give me hope. do i think the problem assault? no, of course not. but steps are being taken. when i see also from police organizations that have come to us and said that they view this report that a sitting here on the table and describe it as a landmark document, that also gives me optimism. kevin: thanks.

sari: kevin and i were together at the justice department this week when the civil rights division released two reports. one on why the decision was made not to charge officer wilson in the shooting of michael brown and the second one was really a scathing report about the ferguson police department. about the racial bias, and about the unconstitutional acts of policing. and i'm wondering what your reaction to that report is? and also, when you traveled around the country with commissioner ramsey and listen to people in other cities, what is your sense of how common what the justice department found in ferguson is in the other police departments? as you said, 18,000 other law enforcement agencies. professor robinson: well, i have not read the report, so i don't want to comment on the report in

particular. of course, it was really about 60 or 70 days for our study. i would not presume to have surveyed the 18,000 departments but we were concerned about -- for example, the practice of municipalities and police departments having come in effect quotas for officers going out and issuing tickets in some instances based on some number. for purposes of revenue generation, rather than public safety. that was something that we made a recommendation specifically that this should not be pursued because testimony that we collected said that this is a problem that is not common only to what we had heard through the media occurring in ferguson.

so that is something that we were concerned about. and so there certainly are some of those practices that are not something that is occurring simply in that jurisdiction. sari: and again, from your experience going around the country and listening in communities, what you think -- do you think the obstacles will be for these reforms to be implemented, to be put in place given the culture of policing that you have heard much about? professor robinson: yes. i think there are several of those obstacles. one of them has to do with very broadly looking at the culture of policing. and that, of course, is a broad kind of issue. one point there has to do, of course, with education and training. we have in the report six chapters that we call pillars.

one of those pillars is devoted to the subject of training and education. and i will point to several different issues that we address there. one has to do with recruitment -- recruit training, and another has to do with leadership training. on the latter, we suggest that there is a clear federal role. that the federal government should help to fund what we call innovation hubs for training around the country so that there is a standardized curriculum, which can really address some key needs here. issues like how to the escalate encounters by police. issues like turning toward more of a guardian mentality in policing, rather than what is kind of a warrior mindset. issues like how to deal with the

mentally ill when officers encounter them on the street. so those are the kind of issues that we are looking at there. we have also suggested that the federal government look at funding something like a postgraduate institute for police leadership. this is something that england has done. they have a national college of policing. to try and educate the next generation of police leaders. it is something that could help to carry us forward to the next generation of police leadership. so we have to look down the road on these kinds of things as we are looking to change the culture of policing. kevin: adequate training seems to be a common theme that runs the entire report. and one of the things that are striking about it is when you look, you have -- you have a chart and their, which breaks down -- in there, which breaks

down the size of police department across the country. first, the number of departments is striking in itself. almost 18,000 at the moment. but nearly 16,000 of those departments are of a size of one officer to 50. which relates in some way to ferguson. a very, very small agency. some of the findings in ferguson indicated a real lack of training, if any. structures that didn't even exist. and i wonder, given the number of departments that have so few officers, i wonder if you have confidence that those departments do get adequate training, given the size and perhaps where they are in the country. professor robinson: of course

many localities really value and cherish their local departments. so we are very respectful of that. but we do have one recommendation in the report that encourages the use of shared services. so regional training would be one way to approach that. and we have encouraged the justice department to have the office of community oriented services, provide technical assistance, or even funding. if available. to utilize those kind of shared services, if they are very small . to really look towards even potentially combining forces toward that because it is very difficult for a small department to send officers to training because they then have to take them out of control and send them off -- patrol and send them off the field. kevin: is there a point where a department's operation -- and

while ferguson is in the news the question is not specific to ferguson -- but should the question be asked to whether or not all these departments are necessary? and when it becomes, you know, time to decide whether or not their operations should be salvageable? professor robinson: i think that question down the road does need to be asked. it is a question that england has asked in the past and has moved towards larger department. sari: i wanted to follow-up under comment in reference to an earlier answer about technology. i was just reading a story in political magazine that is about policing. they were looking at the oakland police department, or they have instituted by the cameras. 2009. in that short it of time, they have seen the number of complaints of excessive force dropped to one quarter of what they were before the body cameras. how important is body --

technology to solving some of the issues? professor robinson: i think our judgment is that technology like body cameras, are not a panacea. but they can be useful in addition to other steps. in order to really bridge the gap between a community and law enforcement. many steps of communication and trust building need to be taken so they can be an added step along the way. but as an example, the communities should be consulted as you are implementing technology like body cameras. and the research along the way that has been done does demonstrate that body cameras can be helpful. but there are many challenges about using body one cameras -- worn cameras. for example, privacy issues arise. if you are going into a home where there are children, what

happens with that part of the tape? when you are in interviewing a rapist, does that part of the tape get released? and in many states, we learn the laws on public record would provide that all of the tape is easily accessible to those public record laws. so those, we recommend need to be re-examined. there are also four jurisdictions very loss -- large costs involved, especially in the storage of the videotapes. jurisdictions need to have their eyes pretty wide open in going into this. susan: about 12 minutes left. sari: commissioner ramsey is not here today because of the death of officer wilson, an african-american officer who was killed in philadelphia. two days ago, another

african-american officer was killed in georgia. can you talk a little bit about -- and again, from your expense going around the country -- this aspect of the debate on race and policing? and what you heard out there about the real dangers and the aspect of self-defense and policing and how this is a part of the debate. professor robinson: clearly, law enforcement is a dangerous profession. and one quote hearing was -- who le hearing was devoted to officer safety and wellness. because we recognize that there is a lot of risk not just from the potential of being shot or killed, but also from the stress that occurs, and other problems that can arise that threaten the health of officers from the job that they undertake.

so we devoted an entire hearing to that come and have a whole set of recommendations related to that. but specifically relating to that issue, we recommended, for example, the reauthorization of the bulletproof vest legislation . an adequate funding for that. and that every officer who serves in this country be provided a bulletproof vest, and that there be a mandatory where -- wear policy. so that was one thing. but we also noted that a large percentage of the officers who have died in the course of duty has been as the result of vehicular accidents. many officers who are racing to the scene of a call do not wear their seatbelts because they want to be ready to jump out at the scene of the crime. and because they are wearing so

much care, it is a little bit awkward sometimes to be wearing that seatbelt. some departments, as a result, have instituted mandatory seatbelt wear policies. and we have endorsed that, but in fact, commissioner ramsey has suggested that there be some technology developed to make the seatbelt easier to get off in the case of officers who are wearing all of their gear. so we are looking at some technology issues around this, as an example. sari: on an earlier question, when criticism of your report -- even though there are many good recommendations -- is that you didn't require body cameras. some officers i have talked to say they feel like they would like to have those by the cameras. can you talk a little bit more about why you didn't require the body chemist? and also, another requirement that people felt to be in the

report is federal funding tied to training on racial bias. professor robinson: addressing the first one, any jurisdiction -- because policing is a local matter in this country -- any jurors diction, of course, -- any jurisdiction could, of course, require body cameras. i think it ignores the fact that there may be local decisions that will very on that front. -- vary on that front. and part of a we said is that every police department should consult the community about what that community thinks is best. so i think it is overriding what local communities would decide. and part of that goes to issues around cost. the costs are pretty high. the purchase, as i understand

it, and i'm not a technology person, but the cost is much less about purchasing the individual body camera than about the storage, the redaction costs which require paying for the time of somebody to go to through the redaction. apparently, it takes a full-time person to handle redaction because the tapes are subpoenaed regularly in court cases. so it is a big job on redaction. and that there are other issues surrounding it, too. public record law issues. so that is a little more complicated than just, we will order them up and send them out. so that was the first issue. and your second issue was around the required training. the federal funding, and basically whether or not to issue grants around the

training, we basically do not get into a lot on conditioning grants. i think primarily for the recent that -- reason that most federal grants that are going out -- like a block grant -- go directly to the state. there are no federal grants that go to all 18,000 police departments. so there would be no way to reach all of those department. and, quite frankly, the ones who might need it the most of the smaller departments. i would say most of those small departments don't receive any federal grants. that would be harder to reach. susan: five minutes left. kevin: one shortcoming, in terms of analyzing law enforcement encounters, especially those that are racially charged, is a lack of data.

and there has been some legislation that is now going -- or supposed to require the collection of that data. but it is very -- there are a number of questions that remain about how that data is going to be collected. is going to manage it? do you know how that data is going to be collected, and who is going to manage it? and how quickly such a repository can be constructed? professor robinson: well, the death and custody data i think would be collected by the bureau of justice the just six -- statistics. is that what you are referring to? i think that is clearly the bureau of justice statistics that would collect that. i think the question about how readily it will come in goes, again, to the 18,000 state and local departments. my understanding, from talking

with a statistician at dhs, is that they do get some of that data in, but basically it is a voluntary matter. logic departments tend to report data, smaller -- larger departments tend to report data smaller departments -- if you have nine or 10 officers, you don't have a data department. and so it may be much more difficult for them to do it. i think one of the answers here will be to work with the professional associations of -- for example, the international association of cheats of police, the sheriffs association. and who work with them and trying to reach those departments. kevin: should federal aid be tied to that requirement? professor robinson: i think that can definitely be done, but remember my, two minutes ago many of the smaller departments do not see -- do not receive

federal grants. so there is no leverage there. sari: you're in the justice department and you are a professor of the allergy. i was so surprised that there was never a database for the use of force. did that come as a surprise to you? and why was it a voluntary kind of information gathering? professor robinson: it was not a surprise to me because -- actually, back in the 1990's, there were attempts to set up such a database to the national institute of justice. but again, it goes back to the large numbers of departments and the fact that in a country like ours with a federal system, you have these multiple, multiple small jurisdiction -- jurisdictions who operate independently. and you can ask for data, and they are busy and small and

they may just -- it is not necessarily that they don't want to cooperate, but they are just busy and they may or may not have time to send inks. and there are also difficult questions about how to define use of data. those can be -- those can be cost by this question of then getting the men and figuring them out. but the main question is, how to collect it from somebody departments? susan: as we close out here, your number one recommendation was the establishment of the national crime and justice task force. and you do note that this has been called for since 1967. so, let me ask you whether or not you think there's something different about this time the place that some of these recommendations and real changes might be affected now versus times in the past where we have had similar crises? professor robinson: i think what is different now is that there is a great focus on criminal justice. you can see people on both the left and the right focusing on

issues relating to drugs relating to sentencing, relating to mass incarceration. so maybe the time is now for a broader look at criminal justice. susan: thank you for your time this week. professor robinson: thank you. susan: "american history tv -- "newsmakers" is back. 20 century policing. i would like to -- both of you have been at the justice department this week as they issued their report on ferguson, missouri. this morning, the president was on the joe madison show. and he talked a little bit about ferguson. let's listen to some of what he had to say. president obama: we just on the ferguson report come out. i don't think that is typical of what happens across the country but it is not an isolated incident.

i think that there are circumstances in which trust between communities and law enforcement have broken down. and individuals or entire departments may not have the training or accountability to make sure that, you know, they are protecting and serving all people, and not just some. susan: i wanted to play that because i wanted to ask you -- a scene we were talking about with ms. robinson -- is what happens next? the president created this task force. the justice department has issued their findings on ferguson. he seemed to be at some point of national attention. if not a tipping point. but where does this go? kevin: well, i think one of the questions that is raised from this report is not only the findings, which were devastating for ferguson, but i think it is a question that the president raised in his remarks just now. how many other departments are in similar straits?

the attorney general remarked after the report was made public that the public trust between the community and the police department had been broken long ago. and that it seemed to be waiting for an incident to sort of work as a fuse to set this off. and so -- so it raises the question of how many other communities are in a similar way? and from the department possible records, there are a number of departments who are struggling with this issue. susan: what do you see happening next? sari: it is interesting because eric holder talked about the tinderbox. and that when a michael brown was shot, there was so much misinformation that came out of that. that is why so many people are surprised about the report, clearing officer wilson from

michael brown's shooting and what he said was that because there had been so much mistrust in the community, it was just ready to explode really. i think so much is going to depend on how successful the justice department is in implementing their 26 some recommendations. how much cooperation they are going to get. are people going to be fired for those racist e-mails? there is really going to have to be, as holder said, a wholesale change in that department for feeling of trust to be -- buildup in the community. susan: beyond ferguson, picking up on kevin's comments, as this a time of national re-examination of the relationships between communities and the police department? or will this be a flash and remove on again? mr. king two decades or so ago. so, i mean, is this different? sari: it feels different to me.

i think that the fbi director gave a very powerful speech a couple of weeks ago at georgetown university. and he talked about this being a very important crossroads, really. where, and he quoted a broadway show song, "everybody's a little bit racist," in talking about the problems between communities and the police who are in these communities. and the need for dialogue. it is so interesting because when eric holder first became attorney general, he got into trouble for a speech talking about a nation of cowards. the fbi director is giving a speech about how important it is to talk about race now in america. susan: last question specifically about this task force that ms. robinson and chief commissioner ramsey -- i am wondering, what kind of leverage -- you asked a lot of questions about the size of

police forces around the country. professor robinson said there is very little leverage because they are small and locally run. so how did -- does change come about in smaller police forces? kevin: the federal government does not really have a lot of leverage over these local departments. except in the pocketbook. in terms of what kind of federal money they can dual out -- dole out to these agencies. i think it is highlighted, the way it is underscored is that for so long, there has been this lack of data. that we can look to choose would analyze how these departments are handling not only people racially charged encounters, but encounters in general. even for the way police officers are injured or killed in the line of duty. the most reliable data is collected by a