money, we spend time with those victims, hear their stories, and we get as much information as you can. we have a very aggressive ongoing investigation at this time, and i would hope in the near future i can describe to the success of our investigations. chairman: another scam that worries me is the stolen identity refund fraud. they calculated that the irs paid at least 5.8 billion dollars of a fraudulent refunds to identify thieves in 2013. this type of fraud is usually not detected until a refund has argued been issued. as a result, the government must attempt to recover funds that have argued been dispersed to a criminal which is no easy task. it would be better if we could detect more this fraud before payment's made. do you have any suggestions on how tigta and the irs can detect this type of fraud?

>> as noted by the witnesses in opening statements and the committee members, one of the challenges that the criminals are out there watching the internal revenue service. they realize that they $.1 trillion goes to the irs on an annual basis and 300 $74 billion in refunds. it is a very ripe target for them. as iris continues to try and advance its filters in advance to new approaches to the fraud the criminals change because it is a lucrative environment. our audit staff continues to look at the filters the irs has in place and comment and recommend additional or improved filters. we have seen improvement in some of them, but if he can -- that it continues to be a major and -- challenge to keep up with communal enterprise. >> thank you very much. this has been a superb panel and thank you for the wonderful work that you are doing in our state particularly for older people. i think you know those are my roots with a great panthers.

i am really glad you are out there and it is incredibly important. i'm going to ask you, mr. ca mus, on the question of foreign government. it looks to me, and you mentioned in your testimony that a lot of the phone scams are originating overseas. it looks to me that this is essential in an emerging form of organized crime. you are conducting an investigation. i recognize there is -- there are some things you can say, but let's talk about some of the things we ought to be looking out for mr. -- from a policy standpoint. there is a question on whether we ought to be initiating efforts in term of work with foreign governments and what they can do to assist us. the second is what is the appropriate role for local law enforcement because you can go after the money runners who collect the payments. in other words, the ripped off artists are overseas, but they

will need money runners to collect the payments. let's start with those two and there could be other opportunities. i know we have strike forces in terms of these interagency forces, but tell us a little bit -- nothing that will compromise investigation -- but tell us a little bit about what we can be looking at that will give you more tools to fight particularly the ripoff artists that have done so much damage from overseas. camas: thank you for the opportunity. of course, the challenge will we deal with these attacks be launched offshore is getting our hands on people. as you pointed out, senator, the agreements or working relationships we have at various foreign governments can create issues there and we would ask for help for that. the problem we are seeing now is because there has been money paid, we are saying other spinoffs of this crime.

when we think we know where it is originated, we are starting to see indications that other criminals have ripped off the original idea and now they are launching these types of attacks. it continues to be a challenge but i think we are onto something. it would certainly be something we could use some help on down the road, as far as getting our hands on a foreign national and bring them to justice in the united states for white-collar crime. >> without compromising the investigation, can you tell is little bit -- you said it were problems with working with the foreign governments -- can you give us a sense of what those are? camas: as you can imagine in the world today, not all foreign governments would feel sorry for the united states with our citizens and the integrity of our financial systems suffering these types of scams. it is one of the reasons my agency takes this card so seriously because it impugns the integrity of the internal revenue service. there are those out there that don't feel bad for the united

states and are not necessarily interested in helping us bring these types of criminals to justice. >> let's move on to the anthem case because this is one of that really shows the industrial scale of these incredible ripoffs. something like 80 million people of cyber id theft and they are one of the biggest health insurers in the country. they have indicated now that 80 million americans may have been hacked in terms of fraudulent health claims but also this criminal enterprise we are talking about today with id theft, including tax fraud. i have raised this question with inspector general in the past and it seems to me that blocking this type of tax fraud increasingly is going to fall on the shoulders of tax collectors

both the irs and the state. so i would be interested in the panel's recommendations on what else we need to do to give you the tools to fight id theft from cyberattacks, so any of you that would like to get into it. i saw all the state officials already nodding their heads. why don't we hear from indiana first. i like to get to the center before the far right and the far left. >> thank you. we are certainly -- anecdote of the, we are seeing a significant increase in the number of valid the stolen ids in indiana. we are already seeing the impact of that. many of the steps that they are taking the corporations are having to take is to do more multifaceted authentication in terms of accessing their systems. i think many companies have not invested adequately to provide -- to prepare for that and allow themselves -- and they a lot of

subs reversible. i think that is when keeping that corporate america and all of us at the governmental level need to focus on. in terms of what we can do as a group, i think it goes back to that three legged stool i spoke to earlier. we need to share this information elements more rapidly and more readily as commissioner valentine indicated, often times we do get a great deal of information that we share with one another but it is not on a timely basis. i would also really like to see the irs take a greater leadership role in terms of driving many of the standards or expectations. we have 50 states and many of them do have taxing mechanisms of departments of revenue all doing disparate things. if we can have the irs help us to bring everything together and establish a coordinated collaborated set of standards of expectations from our software vendors from financial institutions as well, too, i

think that could be a great deal in bringing everybody together on the same platform. >> my time is up. that sounds too logical, we will have to pursue it. thank you. >> thank you. thank you ranking member widen for important -- for holding this meeting. i think every taxpayer ought to feel confident knowing that their personal tax information is secure when they filed with the irs. and that there won't be a false return fragile he filed an ending. we have all seen the devastating impact that tax related identity theft can have on a family's financial well-being, so i appreciate the committee's interest in the subject and hope we are able to move legislation forward in congress. one measure for preventing tax related identity theft has been recommended by a number of commentators is for the virus to

verify information from third parties such as the social security administration. i'm wondering what your thoughts are on how much fraud that would prevent and are there any potential downsides to that approach? i will throw that open to anybody who would like to comment on that. camas: thank you. our auditors look at that at a regular basis and they are doing to moderate work right now. generally speaking, and mr. valentine pointed it out, the fact that the irs does not have in its automated system a w-2 for example, too much the taxpayer or return, that creates -- that inhibits their ability to do it. it is a simple validity checks before issuing a refund and there is a great expectation to the taxpayers a refund as soon as possible a cousin is the taxpayers money. anything we can do to increase the timeliness or to get the time the taxpayer can start filing never served, which this year is january 20, to jive with

the time the social security of meditation at the w-2 information, which is not due until march 31, i think that would be a lot of help. >> anybody else on that subject? any downsides to that approach? camas: i am not aware of downsides other than the fact that more information would be transferred and places to be leaked out, but there it -- but there are three points that can affect the five issues. one is on the front and which is authentication issues. that comes on the discovery phase which is the transfer of information that come back and forth between the various different tax agencies. the third one is the method that you pay. that is why the comments i may try to affect all three of those. anyone of those is helpful, but i think you need an approach in all three areas because if you do that, then you can really have a better chance of cutting the front step. >> thank you. it has been a number of years since congress enacted the

taxpayer bill of rights. when a taxpayer has a fraudulent return filed in his name, the recourse with the irs sufficient -- phase the request of the irs sufficient? >> again, we looked at that and how service and experiences when they contact irs and what they do to help the taxpayer victim. we continue to look at that and not it and recommend changes or improvements in that program. >> are there additional measures that could be considered for individuals who find themselves in that situation to get assistance that they need? >> of course it is a very dramatic issue for the victim. any time anybody's identity has been compromised, they are very, very upset. again, i am not ready to comment on where we are at and that we are doing. i do understand from our auditors, that there has been improvement and they continue to work and look to make that experience better for the victim. >> sender from the utah --

senator from utah, we have a taxpayer issue that focuses on what you are saying. they will be able to process it quickly without going to state bureaucracy. we did that with their tax payers division and letters sent out to be able to syndicate that the person calling us is the right person. that kind of thing may be something the service could consider as well, but it really would have a way to expedite this type of identity theft. >> prey quickly, there were recent breaches and turbotax that the national news and their are reasons that turbotax experienced this and other tech services having how preventable is this -- services haven't. how preventable is this? >> i'm not sure others have not been impacted. perhaps we realized it and identify the particular bridges

that occurred with the one vendor which they have taken additional steps to try to mitigate. but i think we are finding, an indiana, that it is not just on that have been impacted. i think the fraudsters -- they move with great agility. as they impact one and have success on the doors close, they readily moved to another open door, so i think it is a systemic issue and really brought across the entire industry and not limited to any particular vendor or party. >> thank you. thank you all very much. >> thank you, mr. chairman, for holding this hearing. we all have stories of our constituents. we have the same stories of virginia. richard sherman, one of the things i think we could do that has come to my attention, the irs currently interprets the law

saying that they don't believe that if they find out that you have been the victim of identity fraud, they don't even tell you as a citizen that you are the victim of the fraud. they don't notify law enforcement, so the notion -- i believe they can do it administratively but perhaps you were the ranking member can shake them up a little bit more, but if we can't get it administratively. -- business to the, was that we can sickest summation of the irs is a partner in this identification when it comes to their attention that someone has been a victim of identity theft and that we notified the victim and law enforcement. i think we see some not from the panel there. again, the numbers are huge as you pointed out. 5.8 billion in 2013. the second item i think we ought

to consider, and this is something i have been working on the banking committee but some level of mandatory data breach reporting. it is a very gray in developing area. going on the retail side they've got a data breach and we have seen countless indications of data breach. there is no obligation. there is no standard about when a company needs to report this information. i think there needs to be such a standard. one of the things we've urged from the banking committee's side is that this is an area where there is a lot of finger-pointing between the retail sector in the financial sector. and rather than creating another interchange battle, having to

have the financial sector and the retail sector actually collaborate better. again, i will get to a question here. it would seem to me and one thing i like the panel's comments on, is that is there not a way, either through the irs or in cooperation with the private providers -- turbotax and i grew with the panel's comments that this is not just a turbotax problem and not something that can be simply solved by governmental entities. we need the private sector who has got a very fiber business. why haven't we created a single easy-to-use portal so that the lady was conned and the story in utah -- there is a single place where you can at least check

whether this is a real claim or not? do you want to speak to that notion on how we do a better job on consumer education and why we have not had the irs more active in collaboration with state tax departments and others -- and easy to find a and what would be the responsibility of the private sector providers like turbotax is and others to collaborate with that one portal? >> the remaining time left is to give issues you raise. one is a notification issue and how does the taxpayer check to see the return is filed. utah tries to identify both by having real-time identification that we believe your return has been hacked or files. we actually tell them. >> unlike the irs. >> we don't have the impediments pirates have on that regard. the second one is, we have an easy system for taxpayers to check at their tax return has been filed or not because of our time system.

you convert -- determine whether your return has been filed and we have been doing public service announcements to tell them to check if your return has been filed. if you you have it filed and it says, here is a number to call. >> wouldn't it be potentially better to have some national education process since again the district -- disproportionate amount of fraud is taken at the state level -- federal level rather than state level. >> i would agree. it is the matter of finding resources and players and getting all players to collaborate with one another at the same time. i think it represents an ideal scenario and that we need to strive toward that. we just have to get it started and have the leadership. >> i know my time is up, but i would survey say that when we are looking at $520 billion in fraud, "washington post" says at this year we have seen a 37

times increase in potentially fraudulent claims. the ability to have a little bit of resources to have a common sight, number one, number two, either by minister to change or legislative change, making sure the irs actually informs people they know they have been the victim of identity theft. i think that would be steps in the right direction. >> thank you so much, senator. i might add that the senator is the chairman of the judiciary committee and he asked that i asked this question and that we will turn to one of the other senators. on behalf of senator grassley, the treasury inspector general for tax administration, they have detailed how the irs thing to do more to produce improper payments for the earned income tax credit and the sound tax credit. for 2013 about 14 point billion -- $14.5 billion in an appropriate payments were made. and between five $.9 billion and

$7.1 billion for the child tax credit. both of these make it a prime target for anyone looking to engage in tax scams or id fraud. at the same time, the rules governing how these credits -- the rules governing both these credits are complex, opening -- are conflicts, opening up to care. -- to error. but would you contribute to fraud and innocent taxpayer error. >> it is clear that the fraudsters, as he pointed out, look for any opportunity to get the money. they are ruthless in their attempt. the fact that they would use credits that are legally available to both filing tax returns is not a foreign concept . i just don't have that

information available, but i would be happy to meet with my audit staff and get a response to senator grassley. >> if you would, i would like to have that response as well. thank you. >> thank you. i appreciate the opportunity. last week i returned home to atlanta for a week in washington and when i walked in the backdoor, my wife, diane, said he needed to listen to the voicemail i saved from the telephone. it was precisely the call that you talked about where woman with a very convincing voice said she was from the irs and needed a substantial amount of number and 2,202 number. -- and to call at 202 number. i realize it probably wasn't true and now is doing a freefall event with iris the next day in atlanta region, and i gave him the telephone number to follow up on. he told me when i gave him that number that this cannot be real because we do not make any solicitation by telephone. everyone is in the mail. i thought to myself, i should know that, but the american

public should know that as well. they need to let taxpayers know that there are no solicitations by phone and they are done by mail because that is a real problem and it was a very convincing. . -- convincing phone call. >> it is very common in a segment that call comes in, and that is precisely why this scam is so successful. we do have partnerships on the local level with our counterparts at ftc, the irs and others. we do share information like this info graphic that is in front of me right now, which is a really great info graphic. i'm happy to show the committee about the irs graphic -- irs scam. warning signs, how the irs will contact you. by phone? no. by e-mail question might know. by phone question mark yes. -- by phone?

yes. we need to get that into the hands of the general public. >> that is the point i would like to make. i would like to make a point that one of my problems and if we don't have a game plan to get the consumer information out there, and that has been said by a number of you we have a department that was created call the consumer financial protection bureau which is in the business of protecting consumers. it would seem like the secretary of treasury with contact and this would be a perfect way to take their story and solicitation to try and help people who are victims of business fraud and protected from tax fraud as well. i think that is something that treasury could do. >> yes, sir mr. isaacson. we had touched base with the bureau and we will include them. a majority of our focus has really been with the federal trade commission and irs. the irs has been putting these out. i myself have been interviewed and i will take any television

interview that has been put in front of me because i believe in my heart that if you protect one taxpayer have these horrific stories that is a good day for us. i am so happy about this hearing because i'm hoping this will also help people board out that if you get those calls, please think of the telephone. i really appreciated and we are trying to work with that bureau. >> i hope they will be as protective as protecting from tax laws as other parts of the society. i represent georgia were for bending is located -- were for bending is located. -- ford benning is located. did you word out to dot that they need to watch over those who take advantage of their position to steal identity of our soldiers? >> i joined the department --

yeah, ok. you are the question. i joined the department two months ago, so i was not involved in those types of discussions. i do not have the information with me today, but i can certainly report back on whatever was made at the department of defense. we certainly take seriously any allegations and efforts by offenders to commit these and we are particularly focused on the victims, including our military members. >> as chairman of the veterans committee, i will take the initiative to do the same thing. if you would do that within leadership i was it with the veterans leadership. my last point is this, each of the state directors made a point and i was a key to stopping this. one of the problems that existed was that the senate house of not been a cyber security bill and the pending bill we hope for idea sharing and trust laws that

protect so information templates the government to protect against tax fraud and things of this nature, not we need to -- are cyber laws are out of date with our cyber criminals and the quicker we end congress act on the legislation, the more taxpayers will be saved from fraud. that is my only editorial comment. >> thank you. senator casey, you're next. senator casey: i would like to thank the witnesses for your testimony, your presence, and your commitment to stopping this crime. i am struck by what i have seen in pennsylvania. i'm sure this could be replicated in many states. i'm just looking at a small sampling of headlines. this is from a television station in the corner by state. the title of a news article about which they had reporting" -- we go to the other end of the

state over by the eastern border of our state saying that irs scam is widespread reported. in my home area, northeastern, irs phone scam reaching more in northeastern pennsylvania. so, a lot of which you have heard and a lot of what you have direct experience with. i guess i would start with this assistant attorney general, a particular question about your assessment of where we are in light of what would i have seen and others have. i was in burke county, the eastern side of our state, with john adams and mr. adams was walking through some of the basic challenges from prosecutorial standpoints. he emphasized, and other things, that the perpetrators were highly organized and often

reside in jurisdictions forward from the victims of local authorities. he also points to, perpetrators reside in foreign countries. that is among the many challenges that much of you and your testimonies pointed to. i don't want to be pessimistic because i do want to get to part of her testimony where you talk about what has been happening with the justice department and some of the success you have had, but there is a sense because of the scope and gravity of the problem that we are not winning. allen to just, from a national perspective, ask you how you would assess the war or the battle? cirillo: thank you. the tax division has adorable in these models. we prosecute the offenders. we are receiving substantial and increasing sentences.

in addition, we share information we obtain from these cases with the irs, who is working hard to improve filters and better identify fraudulence. and to prevent the issue in fraudulent refunds. that is the tax divisions role. these cases present unique challenges and we will continue to devote our available resources in this area. >> i would ask, and i know much of what you say has to be short, if you had to itemize one or two or three action items we could work on -- resources are other tools you need to do your job -- what do you hope we would do?

>> i think that holding hearings like today are critical to getting word out to the american public. our elected representatives taking the message back to their home state and making sure the information is out there as often and as loud as possible. many of these scams can be stopped if the american public is educated, and having a centralized locations for that information is a wonderful idea. i am very happy to see the representatives from across the country and the panel, and it gives me hope that we will see further information in the future. >> thank you. what should congress do? >> i echoed what she said. from a standard law enforcement point of view the scam is so

simple and we could never be able to prevent people from posing as another person. when money dries up, criminals will go away. getting our hands on them and bringing them to justice and an historic way is something we want to do, but it is not a solution to the crime. it is people who need it the telephone and not being victimized. >> criminals will continue to be agile. as we close one whole, they will open a new one. the greatest thing we can do is ensure collaboration among groups in providing funding to make sure collaboration can take place. >> my final comment is that you still have to be able to cut off the vector that is used to receive money. identification of it is something that we have to know that it is a prepaid debit card

and that we do not refund it that way we were funded by a check at that point. >> i would echoed the comments about education. i travel the state and speak to mostly older adults about this fraud and it is devastating to hear their stories. frequently after they have shared them with me they say , they wish they had talked to me last week. if we can get more awareness and education, that would be great. >> thank you. >> i would like to join my colleagues who have been bringing up these issues of identity theft and fraud but to specifically to point out that the 111th congress increased the irs responsibility while decreasing the funding. the irs is now responsible for implementing the foreign tax compliance act, in addition to the legal requirements lawmakers will have -- the irs

is being urged to combat identity theft, reduce errors and federal tax programs, and generally reduced tax fraud. we need to take this into consideration as a relates to the budget this year and make sure that the resources are there to do this. i am concerned that taxpayers will ultimately -- we need to get a handle on what is happening in identity theft. it was found that 22% of identity theft cases, the irs closed without taking appropriate steps to fully resolve the victim's account. examples include victims not receiving refunds or the irs failing to update the victim's address. to receiving identity protection numbers. in 2014, nearly 70,000 theft returns of this type are closed. at that reported ray 22% of that occurred and about 60,000

taxpayers were burdened by having cases closed and an immature fashion. what do we need to do to fix that? >> that is a job that would fit in our audit staff's portfolio. when they see how the irs is doing with the identity theft program, i was look at the victim interface and how the irs processes the claims and correspondences. i know that auditors are doing work in that area as we speak. >> we will have this resolved for this tax season? so we are not prematurely closing cases? >> unfortunately, it is always in hindsight. the rearview mirror and the audit team looks at the work that was done during the following year. they need to make sure that chris is -- the cases are closed before they look back and see how cases were handled.

i share the sentiment. >> anybody else have any thoughts? it seems -- we need to do something better than have taxpayers affected this way. >> i agree. it creates anxiety among the taxpayers. one of the things -- we also have services to work with taxpayers that have been comprised with their identities to make sure they have received comfort and knowledge that the return has been properly reflected and accounted for. we need to do the same thing at all levels. >> i know that practically every committee has i just ideas of -- has been asked to address the ideas of cyber security and move forward and if it our committee should look at this particular aspect in making sure that our tax filers are also secure. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, senator. >> thank you mr. chairman. i didn't want to wrap up without giving you a chance to talk about seniors because i think we

know how outrageous it is that seniors get ripped off this way. we have millions of older people in this country who are walking in economic tightrope every day, to balance food bills and fuel bills and housing costs, they get ripped off and it is not some abstraction. they really suffer. as we wrap up -- i want to finish with this -- what else to think this committee can do to beef up the fight to protect seniors from these ripoffs? >> that is a great question. it's true that this particular imposter scamp -- scan disproportionately affects vulnerable adults, especially older adults, that our home during the day and answer the phone. that is because they grew up during a time when they were

taught it was rude not to answer the phone. i think some of the suggestions we have for today are wonderful, but i will keep beating the drum of education and awareness. if we can let people know that this is a notoriously sawful -- awful scam and they should be alert to it -- it is not rude to hang up the phone. i think that is a wonderful educational tool, especially for older adults. it is very tough. i talked to them every day. it is going to be a struggle but i think the more information and awareness been get out there the better. i always tell people who come to my presentations or call me on the phone to share their stories with one or two other people because i think that personal story, that personal touch from somebody who maybe got that phone call and almost fell victim or did fall victim, let them know what it is important. >> thank you for the work you are doing. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you for your testimony.

as many have noted, identity theft is one of the fastest growing crimes in the united states. not only did the victims who are disproportionately low income and vulnerable lose millions of dollars to these schemes each year, they are also subject to months if not years of overwhelming paperwork and credit problems and inconvenience. one constituent of mine who i will refer to as sandra experienced this nightmare first hand she contacted my office in march, 2013, to request help to restore her identity that was stolen in 2010. she did not receive her refund for 2010-2012. she was getting nowhere with the irs over fixing the situation. finally after an additional two

, years of working with her, the irs and the taxpayer advocates office was able to resolve the situation. earlier this year, this year. mr. camus, your names is one of my favorite ones, but is the irs doing enough to resolve cases of identity theft and timely manner? is the waiting period sandra experienced acceptable in your. -- in your opinion? >> no, because i'm a criminal investigator and i know how horrific that experience is for an individual. i can to you that the irs has made great strides in trying to be better, faster, and more responsive to victims. one of the things they put in place was an identity that victim pin and when they use --

when they file in the future years, these that pin number to identify their identity. my observation for meeting the audit reports that our staff has done, is that they have made great strides. >> what would you say is the status now somebody who finds themselves in a situation like sandra? what can they expect to be the. -- be the period of time in which their issue will be resolved? >> my understanding is that it will be better than it was in previous years. whether or not it is up to par -- >> for five years with her experience. what would you say is the average now? one year? >> yes, sir. i do not happen information available. -- i do not have that information available. >> i would love to get a from the irs at the end of the day.

let me ask this. a commissioner testified about unscrupulous tax preparers. in response to a question i i raise race, he said, i quote, the irs is very can turned about unscrupulous tax preparers. ". i know the irs try to regulate paid taxpayers and was rebuffed by the circuit court of appeals, which congress has not explicitly authorized such legislation. i find it strange inappropriate that many states require hair barbers to have a license that somebody filing a very complicated tax returns does not do license. how critical is it for the irs to be able to regulate tax preparers and would doing so reduce the amount of fraud and identity theft? >> i think it is important that anybody that is such an important job in such an

important areas of tax administration. we work closely with the department of justice tax division. when we come across in a -- we come across in that scoop's tax repair and bring them to justice, i think it is important that the trust people to prepare an honest and accurate return. we have obtained injunctions against more than 40 fraudulent preparers and we will continue to prosecute those individuals. >> do you have any idea how me preparers there are? >> senator, i do not have that information. we believe that they should be

able to trust that person to prepare an honest and accurate return. in the last year alone, the tax so -- division has obtained and will continue to prosecute individuals who don't prepare the returns. >> is it based on complaints or -- it sounds ago small number compared to the universe of preparers that are out there. is it based on complaints or the services's own investigation? >> the tax division works with the irs in identifying fraudulent preparers and we, based on the evidence we

receive, we follow that evidence to pursue injunctions. >> do you have a number of complaints filed with you? >> since 2000, we filed over 500 injunctions against fraudulent preparers. >> thank you. i want to thank all are witnesses for appearing here. i want to thank all the senators that participated. i think this is been a good hearing. hopefully we can move on from here. any questions for the record should be submitted no later than thursday, march 19. this hearing will be adjourned at this point. thanks to all of you, we appreciate it. i would like to come down and say hello to all of you.

>> the gridiron club host's

annual dinner today in washington d c. it was founded in 1885 by newspapers editors and the oldest journalistic organization in the capital city. daniel white tie affair affairs close to campus and features satirical speeches, skits, and politicians. c-span spoke with george condon about the dinner's history. steven scully: george condon white house correspondent, we are here in your officee overlooking the potomac and the kennedy center. you also have another title -- historian for the gridiron club. let me ask you about the dinner itself. it is among one of the most formal in washington, d.c. why? mr. condon: we consider it kind of casual. you don't spend a saturday at home in white tie and tails? i am kind of shocked. as is so much with the gridiron club, it is tradition.

that is what they wore at the beginning and we've stuck to it. there has been conversations about changing it. president roosevelt was a big lobbyist to try to get it changed. his final exchange with gridiron was a letter about a week before he died in 1945 where he explained he cannot come to the dinner and was going to be in georgia. he said he noticed in the invitation it was black tie. he said, hooray! you are finally changing it. that speaks plain to him it was a wartime thing -- they had to explain to him it was a wartime thing. they were not going to do it during a war. steven scully: let's talk about the presidents and the gridiron club. any president refused to show up?

mr. condon: the founding came at a time between real tension between the press and public officials. congress was furious with the press because stories were told about a scandal that was about an exchange of members of congress getting stock in railroads and the construction of the railroads. the gridiron club had an effort to heal that rift. and mark workers -- professional organization of the press. so, at the very beginning, you had president grover cleveland who just survived what is still probably our nastiest presidential election in 1884. he really hated the press. hatred which grew when he really, really disliked how the press covered his engagement and wedding at the white house and then his honeymoon. really hated how they covered

his honeymoon. he refused every invitation, but he is the only president because after that benjamin harrison attended and every president since him has attended. -- has attended. steven scully: ronald reagan seemed to enjoy the dinners. mr. condon: he did. steven scully: he went to all eight? mr. condon: i believe -- yes because he had just gone to the one before he was shot. so yes, he did go to all eight. but, -- he had some memorable lines. he had one line when farmers were complaining about his policy and sales to soviet union. he said, we should keep the grain and send the farmers. that was supposed to be off the record but it got out. steven scully: george w. bush, barack obama, bill clinton -- what is their attendance record

like? mr. condon: president clinton was in the hospital during one of his. i think he went to six of the eight. george w. bush, i believe went to every one. in fact, both presidents clinton and bush participated in this show. in 1993, president clinton put on a sparkly costume and played the saxophone. and, in his last year, president bush went on stage and sang a song that the lyrics were changed. it was a western song. about how he was leaving town. steven scully: when the organization was formed, the white house press corps was predominately white and male. mr. condon: you noticed? steven scully: when did the gridiron change when it came to

the membership? mr. condon: i should have checked the exact year. carl rowand the columnist, was the first african-american member and became president in 1988. it was in the 1970's when he became a member. women also was in the 1970's. there was a lot more focus on the change of women and a lot more opposition. there was not really opposition to having a black membership. there were protest dinners gridiron dinners and they started attracting some of the big names -- george mcgovern made a point of going to the protest dinner instead of the actual dinner. the members pretty much caved finally. steven scully: over the years, has a dinner ever been canceled or postponed because of a

natural disaster -- you mentioned war. mr. condon: it was canceled during world war i and world war ii. the one i just mentioned with fdr saying he would not be able to attend. well he died the next week and , the dinner was canceled. there have not been any recent cancellations. steven scully: what about demonstrations outside the hotel or protesters? mr. condon: it happened in the one i mentioned involving women. there were pickets and protest dinners. there really has not been much of anything other than that. steven scully: there were a couple of books behind you are -- that are chronicling the history of the gridiron dinner. as a historian, what is your job and what are you looking for that has not already been reported? mr. condon: one thing i'm very grateful for is i'm also a historian for the white house

correspondents. the frustration is nothing was saved. we did not know which years we had dinners or where or who our entertainers were. the contrast with gridiron is sharp. here is a book that was written only 20 years after. here is one that is 25 years, 48 years, a hundred years. i mean i'm new to the job as , gridiron historian. i'm replacing todd purdom a couple of months ago. i have not gone yet to the library of congress, but at the library of congress we have given all of our files. it is just a treasure trove. one member -- i saw this last week -- started maintaining a scrapbook in 1885 and kept it going until his death in 1920's. just his scrapbooks filled large boxes.

everything was saved. seating diagrams. in this book, i can find minutes of meetings in 1897 and see who was late on their dues and who -- you had to pay one dollar a year and some people had not paid. they were kicked out. it is wonderful. i have only scratched the surface. steven scully: this year's dinner is at the renaissance hotel in d.c. ticket prices are $300 per person. for those who wonder what happens inside the room, explain. mr. condon: the whole point of the dinner and the club, unlike the white house correspondents association which has a real function of fighting for coverage issues. that is the main function. not throwing the dinner. gridiron, the main function is the dinner. and, there is 600 people. it is not 2600 people like the correspondents dinner. it is only 600 people.

and, it is in between courses, you have two skits. one skit about eight songs lampooning the democrats and one skit lampooning the republicans. and, after the democratic skit you have a speaker representing the democratic party. this year it is virginia governor terry mcauliffe. he will speak and hopefully be humorous. after the republicans get, this year's republican speaker is wisconsin governor scott walker. at the end of the night, president obama will speak. it will be funny. different presidents and then -- have different approaches. president clinton was the first president to bring videos and some of them were hilarious. president obama, i think he did video one year.

basically, they are funny speeches. steven scully: as you research the gridiron dinner and its history, what has surprised you the most in your early research? mr. condon: that is a good question. the biggest frustration is it because so much was off the record, i would love to know what was in some of those speeches by the yearly presidents. the most intriguing incident that i have come across was a president of the united states almost came to physical blows at one of the dinners with a u.s. senator. steven scully: explain. mr. condon: president theodore roosevelt had in what historians see as a real blot on his record had basically fired without

retirement benefits or anything 160 african american troops in texas. and, senator joseph foraker took -- republican from ohio, took up their cause and was really loud in protesting president roosevelt's treatment of them. they were sparked by a cartoon in the dinner program which looking at it today was pretty racist. but, they got -- president roosevelt said he was not waiting until 10:30 to give a speech. he wanted to give a speech now. he ripped into senator foraker and that it was unusual they let the senator respond. he ripped back into the president. they ended up not even serving all the courses of the meal and they canceled a lot of them but -- entertainment.

because it was so ferocious, they realized they had to get off the record that year. people had to write about that, and that was the most surprising event of any dinner. steven scully: george condon white house correspondent and historian for the gridiron club. thank you for being with us. >> next, rand paul talking to students at bowie state university about the criminal justice system. next, former governor jeb bush. your calls and comments on "washington journal." >> here are some of our future programs this weekend on the c-span networks. c-span2 "book tv" is live from arizona for the tucson festival of books featuring conversations

on the civil war. sunday at 1:00, we continue live coverage of the festival with panels on the obama administration the future of politics, and the issue of concussions in football. today at 9:00 eastern, on "american history tv is going on c-span3, we are live for the 16th annual civil war seminar where authors talk about the closing weeks of the civil war in 1865. sunday morning at 9:00, we continue live coverage of the seminar with remarks on the surrender of the confederacy and the emigration of confederate to brazil. find a complete come -- television schedule at c-span.org and let us know about the programs you are watching. e-mail us, send us a tweet, join the c-span conversation. like us on facebook, follow us on twitter.

>> rand paul talked about the criminal state system in maryland. he is a possible 2060 republican presidential candidate and democratic senator corey and he have joined on keep nonviolent offenders out of prison and a way to avoid a criminal record. his remarks are about 40 minutes and [applause] senator paul: thank you. sometimes people ask, you know can one person make any difference at all? sometimes i wonder that even in washington, but one of the reasons i'm here is because of eugene. i was scanning online and found the article that he wrote, and i said to my staff, why don't you call him? we are glad to be here this morning.

cliende kennard got out of prison a couple of months -- actually the same month i was born, a long time ago, 1963. the reason that he went to prison is because he was trying to get enrolled in mississippi southern. at that time, it was very difficult for a black man or woman to enroll. the second time he tried to enroll, they planted liquor on him and gave him a $600 fine. one thing led to another and he declared bankruptcy. he tries to enroll a third time but was bullied by the police. when he tried the third time, he declared bankruptcy and went to his farm to pick up chicken feed. $25 of chicken feed. you know what happened to him? he was arrested.

seven years in prison for $25 of chicken feed. it was really his. it was on his land that the bank was repossessing. people's lives can spiral out of control for $600 fine. thomas wolfe talks about this in his book. a person's life spirals out of the control when he tries to get his car back. those of us who have jobs and fairly privileged lives do not know what it is like to have to pay fines, penalties on top of fines, and how someone's life can spiral out of control because of this. even though this was 1963, and a lot of things have improved since then, we have gotten rid of segregation by law, but we still have a problem in this country that is somewhat like segregation, but also somewhat like there are two systems.

as martin luther king junior said, there are two americas. there is one america that believes in life, liberty, and pursue of happiness, but there is another america is witness to a daily disgrace, a lack of hope and despair. like clyde, there are still people in society who are hounded. several cities and -- in missouri, their cities get by on fines. i tell people, it's not about what happened this year, it's about this building up, this increase. i call it an undercurrent of unease. there are still two americas. many here are those who do

believe in life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. those who get an education, no matter the color of your skin, you're part of america and can live the american dream. many are not. it's the lack of education, but also the criminal justice system. as i have learn more about the criminal justice system, i have come to believe that it is something that will keep these two americas separate. there are so many things, one after the other, they are unjust. if you look at new york city $500 million of fines. about the third of the budget is funded by fines. what reason do we have to have politicians telling the police that they have to take someone down for selling cigarettes on tax. couldn't we have given him a ticket? i don't blame the police. i blame the politicians.

we can change the rules at any minute. i want to be part of the change of rules. with the president, we don't agree on a lot of stuff, but on the criminal justice system, we do. one of the laws that bothers me the most is called civil forfeiture. civil forfeiture is when the government can take your stuff whether they have convicted you of a crime or not. i think this turns justice on its head. in our criminal justice system you are innocent until you are proven guilty.

civil forfeiture is the opposite. [applause] if there's one thing that i can change, i want to reinforce that in the judicial system, you are innocent until proven guilty. the problem is civil forfeiture is the opposite. i will give you a couple of examples. a family in philadelphia, their teenage son took sold $40 worth of illegal drugs off the back porch. the government took their house. how are we making anything better when we take the house? maybe it is grandma's house. why would we take grandma's house? why would we take the family's house based on -- not even a conviction -- an accusation of a child who does not own the house? it is way out of control. it is happening in various venues here if you look at it, the washington post has done a great series over the last six or so. it is predominantly african-american, and hispanic or one common denominator, predominantly people who live in poverty.

it is unfair and it ought to stop. i think we can stop it. this is something that the president and i completely agree on. we have legislation that changes the presumption that you will be innocent until proven guilty and they cannot take your stuff until you have been proven guilty. giving you some examples of things we have had a problem with. in civil forfeiture they took a $1.5 million motel in new jersey. why? about 10 people had stayed there over about 14 years that have been caught selling drugs. 10 people out of 200,000 people, and they took the hotel. when they look at it, there's a program where those who take your stuff get to keep it. they get to keep the proceeds. there is a perverse an incentive for the government wanting to take your stuff. there was other people selling

drugs in other hotels in the area, they did not take them. they had liens against them. this hotel had actually been paid for. the government looks for -- >> can they increase your volume? senator paul: i think i lost my volume. we will have someone look into it. other than civil forfeiture -- it's coming back. other than civil forfeiture, there are a lot of things that we need to fix in our society. one of them is something called mandatory minimums. mandatory minimums say that if you committed an infraction, you have to serve a minimum sentence. one person, he sold $300 worth of marijuana, he got a sentence of 50 years.

that's outrageous. 50 years in prison for selling $300 worth of marijuana. you can kill someone in kentucky and be eligible for role in -- for parole in 12 years. something is wrong here. to compound this, there is a racial outcome to this. i don't think there is a racial intention, i tell people, i think they are not looking if they don't think that incarceration problem in our country is not skewed towards one race. i don't think it's purposeful but it is actual and real and we must do something about it. 55 years in prison for selling marijuana. timothy tyler was a guy, 23 years ago, he was 23 years old. he was a dead head, doing lsd, things you shouldn't do. the thing is for that crime of sending some lsd through the mail and using lsd, he got life in prison.

he is now 46 years old. he has been in jail for 23 years. this is out of control and insane. jill lockwood is 31 years old. she was writing a false prescription for herself for lortab. it is 95% tylenol. they put her in jail based on the weight of the entire drug. she is in jail for 15 years. she was an addict. let her have treatment, punish her, but don't put people in jail for 15 years. this is all done through mandatory minimums. i think judges should get more discretion. democrats and republicans are saying give us discretion, another means to incarceration.

in 1980, there were 300,000 kids in our america who did not have a father because their father was in prison. there are now 2 million kids with no father because the father was in prison. we need to be fixing the criminal justice system. if we look at mandatory minimums, civil forfeiture, and other problems we have in our society, one of the problems is employment. republicans, we're big on saying we don't want people permanently on welfare. we want people to transition from welfare to a job. they look back at us and say how am i supposed to find a job, i am a convicted felon. there has to be a way to figure out how to get people back to work. [applause]

a friend of mine's brother grew marijuana plants at the university of kentucky 30 years ago. he is a convicted felon. he has to check the box every time he goes to look for a job. and, he can't vote. if we really want to get people back integrated into society not permanently unable to work and permanently on welfare, we have to figure out how to expunge their records. booker and i put together a bill, called the redeem act. it takes these minor felonies, mostly drug possession and says, if you have been punished, out of jail, you've paid your debts to society, and a certain amount of time, you should be able to get rid of your records. we are talking about nonviolent crimes. in the bill also, that i have with cory booker, it gets rid of solitary confinement for teenagers. why we're putting teenagers in solitary confinement, i don't

know. i can tell you one story that horrified me, in the new york er a few weeks ago. a black man, teenager from the bronx, he was picked up for doing a crime. i don't know if he did the crime are not, but it was a crime that he was sent to rikers for three years, solitary confinement. three years in prison and he was never tried. have these people not heard about the six amendment? a speedy trial. he tried to commit suicide three times. i don't know what happened to him in rikers, but it certainly wasn't good, it wasn't fair.

it certainly wasn't american to have a man locked up for three years. we ought to change it. [applause] in the bill that i have with cory booker, we take some of the records and let them be expunged. so that they won't show up when you go to work. we also get rid of solitary confinement for juveniles. i also think that part of the problem with losing your ability to vote is that we have a lot of felonies that we can make misdemeanors. i have another bill called the reset bill. we take minor felonies nonviolent crimes, and we make them misdemeanors. we are not saying they are ok, but they are misdemeanor, and you will never lose your right to vote or your right to work. these are things that if we do we can radically transform our country. we have something on civil forfeiture, mandatory minimums expungement, and resetting your record.

all of these things, i think will help with criminal justice. they will help for people who live in the two americas and people who think they aren't open to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, or that undercurrent of unease. maybe those people will start to feel part of the american dream and will be ambitious and try to succeed like the rest of us. one of the final things is we have had a lot of discussion in our country about voting rights. whether people are excluded or not excluded, and what we need to do to make it better. i think the good thing is, more minorities voted at a higher percentage in mississippi and other states last time around. we have come a long way. the one thing precluding people from voting is the felony conviction. i have a bill with harry reid to get your voting rights back. if you have served your time for a nonviolent crime and your behavior yourself.

-- you are behaving yourself. i think it's hard for people to feel part of america of a cannot -- if they cannot vote. we want people to go to work. we want people to be able to vote. how do we protect all these things and make it a better, more united, america? i think we need to pay more attention to the bill of rights. the bill of rights is there to protect all of us. it is not necessarily for the prom queen. it's not necessarily for the high school or the college quarterback. those who are popular among you will always do fine. it's for the least popular among you. it's for those with unorthodox ideas. it is precisely for minorities. you could be a minority because of the shade of your skin, or a minority because of the shade of your ideology. you can be a minority because you are african or hispanic. but you can also be a minority because you are an evangelical christian.

minority opinions need to be protected. we have instances, and the last year or two, where we have let down our guard. i will give you a couple of examples. we have something now in america called indefinite detention. this means someone can be sent to guantanamo bay forever. if you are deemed dangerous. i said, this begs the question. who gets to decide who is dangerous and who is not dangerous? who should be afraid of this?

anybody think that you may want to be afraid if you are jewish. has anyone ever seen animus toward jewish people? everybody ever think there's been animus towards african-americans in our country? the answer is, even from this president, i don't think this president will round up people based on their race. i don't think he will do that. that's what he said when he signed the legislation. he said, i'm a good man, i will not do this. i'm not questioning whether or not the president is a good man, but the law on the book. there have been times in our history when we have let down our guard. madison wrote about this when he said, if government were comprised of angels, we would not need these laws. if government were comprised of angels, it would not matter if there were potential for bias. remember the times you did not get due process. remember the times that groups in our country, like japanese-americans during world war ii who did not get due process and were incarcerated without trial. that's why we have these rules. it's not because of this president, but the next president, or the president thereafter.

we are also doing something that i think goes against justice and the ideas of justice. we are collecting your phone records. every one of your phone records is being collected and stored. they won't tell us, but in all likelihood, the vast majority of phone records are being collected. if you look at the warrant, it does not have your name on it. the fourth amendment says it must specify your name, what you did, and they have to go to a judge to ask for probable cause. you look at your phone records and it says verizon on it. i do not know anyone named mr. verizon. i don't think you can write one single warrant and get 1500 records. it is supposed to be individualized. in fact, we fought the revolution over this. you had to specify the person. specify the crime. probable cause.

that is why we wrote the fourth amendment, you have to specify the person, the possible -- probable cause, and get a judge. you should be worried about this. what does the government say? we will never look at your records. trust us. we are good people. there have already been a couple of intelligence folks looking at their wife or boyfriends' records. people are tempted to look at your records. people are not perfect. can we still get terrorists and we do not collect records? yes. get a warrant. if there is a rapist in d.c. and you see him running towards the house, the police do not break the door down.

it is 3:00 a.m. in the morning they call the judge and they get a permit. we need these constitutional protections. think about the 1960's. think about how martin luther king's phone was tapped. think about many people who protested the war. they had their phone tapped you -- tapped. you have to have these protections. not because there's one particular bad person in government, but there is potential. criminal justice, or the lack of criminal justice, it is not a black or white problem. it is not a black or brown problem. what it is is a poverty problem. we have to be careful to make sure the bill of rights applies to every individual. if there is one thing that i want to get across it is that we have to defend the bill of rights. [applause] i think there are two other areas in which there are two americas still. and where we need to find out how to unite the two americas. one is education. if you're here at bowie state or you're visiting and you went to

school or college and working, you succeeded. you are part of the america that will go after the american dream, life, liberty, pursue of -- pursuit of happiness. but, if you did not go to school or you went to a crummy high school, you are living in one of the other americas. the statistics are startling. if you look at the graphs, those who went to school, those who waited and had kids and got married after going to school, it is night and day. there are two different americas. how do we equalize education? education is the equalizer. we got to school together, we got integration, but there still is a lack of equality in the school. the best way to put it. i went to public schools, they had calculus, physics, biology

two, anatomy and physiology, i had a great school. my kids have gone to public schools. but not all schools are created equal. there is still a problem. a lot of the problem can be fixed if we allowed for more animation, competition. allow kids to choose what school they go to. if there's a school in the suburbs, allow them to drive to that school. schools choice will allow them to be equal. right now, the concern is that those making decisions are the education establishment not the parents. parents are doing anything they can to win the lottery to get their kid to go to a good school. we have to figure out how to make education equal across the board. finally, what we have to do is get economic equality. i'm not talking about some kind of equality of outcome. i'm talking about equality of opportunity.

i think that we have to do something new. we've tried passing money out. look in my state. appalachia has gotten money for 60 years. we tax everybody in the country, and we send it to appalachia. but it has not worked. appalachia is still as poor as it ever was. the problem is, if you give me the money and asked me to give it to someone, people in government don't know who to give it to. we give it to john smith and say, open a business. we don't know if john smith or mary smith are good at making business. the market does though. every day you are going out and spending money, you are voting on which businesses will succeed. i think we should stimulate detroit. detroit has 20% unemployment and thousands of abandoned housing. if we want to do something for detroit, why don't we cut the

taxes for detroit? [applause] jack kemp was the first person to talk about this. he called them enterprise zones, i called them freedom zones. we take tax cuts to areas of high incidence of poverty, and we dramatically cut the taxes. not a little bit. we almost completely wipe out federal taxes so they can have more money. in detroit it would be a $1.3 billion tax cut. for baltimore, it would be $900 million -- $90 million per year. [applause] why does this work better than a government stimulus? we tried a government stimulus. we did it for our five years ago. -- four or five years ago. we gave a bunch of money, about $800 billion that we gave out. we did not know who to give it to. when they divided up, it was

about $400,000 per job. if you give it back to the people -- think about baltimore, there are pockets of poverty but there are businesses that are succeeding. you don't want to give it to the brand-new person, give it to the old business. they will hire new people. give them back more of their money but in a dramatic fashion to stimulate the cities and get the cities growing again. what i'm saying is think outside of the box. what we have been doing is not working. i think there are ways we can have criminal justice in our country, ways of having quality education, and also ways of having economic opportunity. if we do things over and over again, that is the definition of insanity is if you expect a different result. i truly think that the two americas that martin luther king talked about can come back together. i think it is imperative for us to do it. i have seen and felt the undercurrent of unease. i have been to ferguson, chicago, detroit. some of this is government.

the government has done the wrong thing sometimes. politicians. police are trying to do their job for the most part. politicians have done a bad job of creating criminal justice. but, we can't just think that things will change. finally, we have to have the debate about who best spends money. are the politicians smart enough to know how to spend it, or should we send it back to baltimore? should we have it if we want baltimore to be richer? leave more money in baltimore. can we make more jobs by not sending it to washington in the first place? i am a big believer in freedom human ingenuity, i say if we give power back to the people, we will see success like we haven't in a long time. [applause] thank you.

[applause] >> i would like to introduce our moderator for the q and a. >> thank you. thank you for having me. hello bowie state. we are going to go ahead and do a q&a with senator rand paul. i thought was refreshing to hear you talk on so many different topics, obviously that's around and involved in our life here and elsewhere. first question, senator paul could the federal government provide incentives for businesses to hire ex offenders? senator paul: the best way to

have an incentive is to get rid of the record. expunging the record is one of the best way to get ex offenders back to work. i think, particularly, we are talking about millions of people, as many as 5 million people who have lost the right to vote, but they're also people who are having difficulty getting employment. there has to be some exceptions, obviously. if you are a sex offender, child molester, things like that don't go away. violent crimes stay on your record, but if you smoke some pot or group -- grew some marijuana plants in college, you ought to get a second chance. >> absolutely. speaking of smoking some pot -- second question, please explain your federal medical marijuana bill and the role of federal

government in drug policy. senator paul: this is another bill that we introduced this week. the federal government will not interfere with state who want to have a medical marijuana. one of the things we have done is there are schedules for drugs. schedule 1, 2, 3. three is just about everything. two is a little more restrictive. schedule one is most restrictive. marijuana is schedule one. most doctors cannot prescribe it. a couple examples of people who use marijuana for medical benefit. my political directors father -in-law is confined to a wheelchair and he would use narcotics.

he had a lot of pain from ms. he tried marijuana, he felt like it helped him. now he is in virginia and he can not use it. there are also kids, some kids have so many seizures, it's uncontrollable. 100 or 200 seizures per day. their brain does not develop and they remain mentally stunted from the seizures. they are now talking about cannabis oil without the thc. they purposely take -- thc is the part that makes people get high. they take it out and they give oils to these kids. some of them are showing benefits. a needs to be studied. i think parents ought to have a chance. i think there's a great deal of popularity in the public. i do not know of congress is ready to pass it. the public is ready.

[applause] >> senator paul, if you were president, how would you support u.s. gas and oil instead of importing it from other countries? senator paul: i like the supposition of the question. [laughter] [applause] one way to be independent and have a growing energy industry in our country is we have to compete with everyone around the world. one of the ways we are not competing very well is that our taxes are higher and our regulatory burden is higher. for example, the corporate income tax in this country is 35%. in ireland, it's 12%. in england, it's 20%. most of europe has a lower business taxman we do -- tax than we do. then, you bring in the regulatory burden of what we have on our industry. we have greater regulatory burden.

our tax burden is higher, our regulatory is higher. even with that, our energy production is doing pretty well. we're at the point where we should say, should we get rid of the laws that say we cannot export. there was a lotaw passed in the 1970's this and we were not allowed to but now we're getting to the point where we can. >> thank you. what are your thoughts on the progress of african-americans in this country? what would you do as president to continue that progress? senator paul: sometimes we think we have not gone very far, when i think we have come along way. i say we, collectively obviously it is not me. we got rid of most of the legal problems of separation, in the 1960's. it took a wild to -- while to

take effect and transmit to the schools. i think really, the problems are not legal separation. we have de facto. there is de jure, of the law and de facto. i think it is an economic opportunity and criminal justice. the one thing the government can do is we need to make criminal justice more fair. one thing that i did not mention, which is also a problem -- many people cannot keep up with their child support payments. instead of working out a schedule, we send them to prison. we have debtors prison. we have all of these things that are unjust about our criminal justice system that could be changed. speaking of criminal justice could you make the correlation obviously with criminal justice reform, and economic opportunity. >> you talked about, and if you could expand on our little more, the economic freedom zones that you have proposed. what will it take to make that a reality, if you will?

if you could speak a little clearer on the benefit for individuals, small businesses, and municipalities. senator paul: i think if you look at the practical politics of this, and say, what is anyone offering detroit. zero. you might see some democrats that say, let's just give them a $1 billion. we would have to borrow from china. we borrow $1 million per minute. i have a proposal for detroit, baltimore, louisville, all of our big cities. when you dramatically lower the tax rates, you don't affect the infrastructure. your police, fire, roads, all that you pay for with local taxes.

if you live outside of detroit and you are the president of a bank, and i say i will give you a 5% income tax versus at 39% income tax if you moved to detroit, my guess is that you might consider doing it. is it -- it is a huge bonus to the individual. we also have hiring incentives to get those tax breaks. 25% of your people have to live in the neighborhood. >> excellent. any other questions, follow-up questions? >> we cannot afford to deploy $1 billion, but we give israel $1 billion annually. where does the money come from? senator paul: it is true of everything on the margin. we don't have money for most things. yesterday, i had people come and

want more money for diabetes. there are a lot of good cause is s out there, but they want more money. i told them what you tell everyone else, if you have a cause that you believe in, you have to figure out where the money comes from. you have to cut spending. i'm willing to do that also. i have said repeatedly, before i touch any penny for a safety net, i will cut every penny of corporate welfare. that is how you save money. [applause] >> i think, senator paul, when you first came to the senate you talked about looking at eliminating spending, cutting it by $500 billion. over 10 years. could you speak a little more about that? senator paul: this is a good point. some people think that republicans are for no government. that they are for cutting everything, leaving nothing for the poor. that is not true. we are mostly for not spending money that does not come in.

for those who say i am not for any government, i say i am for $3 trillion worth of government. that's how much comes in. but we spend $3.8 trillion. there is this huge disparity of what comes in and what goes out. within the $3 trillion, you have to make some distinctions on what you do. i think the department of commerce is mostly going to rich corporations. there is $20 billion worth of rich welfare to corporations. on average, there are about $200 million to 40 or 50 big corporations. you can eliminate that. there's quite a bit of different departments that could go. i'm not sure you would notice the difference. we've had the department of education for the last 30 or 40 years. the vast majority that can go

back to the state level and not be done on washington. [applause] >> i believe the import-export bank would be a part of that as well. senator paul: i would call that corporate welfare as well. >> thank you very much, senator paul. it is an honor and a privilege. [applause] thank you for coming. >> this week c-span is in new hampshire for the road to the white house coverage of several presidential candidates. scott walker and republican party grassroots workshop, and senator ted cruz. road to the white house, 2016, on c-span. >> former florida governor jeb

bush was in new hampshire giving a talk. [indiscernible chatter]

>> if i can ask the media to walk to the back of the room.

you can see governor bush after the event. as best as possible, mr. collins took the time to invite his neighbors. this is his house. [indiscernible] >> he went out of his way to invite his family and friends to come here. you are welcome too. at the end of the event, circle around. try to move back, please. folks, come up. [indiscernible]

please press to the back. [indiscernible chatter] >> may have your attention please. thank you for being here.

we are grateful to open our home for an event like this. house parties are an important tradition of the primary here in new hampshire. candidates come and meet with voters one-on-one -- they answer questions and rise or fall on their own merits. it is a system that has served our country well over the last many decades. we are honored to host governor bush, his first visit to new hampshire since he announced he is thinking about maybe possibly running and he wanted to do a house party as part of his visit sends a message about the kind of campaign he might run in new hampshire if he becomes the candidate here. i have a couple of people i want to recognize and i ask you to hold your applause until later. the mayor of dover is here. a couple of our city counselors, kathy cheney and john o'connor

are here. here is our mayor. >> hello. >> i want to point out, doris grady, in her eighth decade as an educator in the city of dover. her 20th year -- 22nd year on the school board here. she is a true marvel. [applause] i need to thank my wife jenny. [laughter] [applause] when we talked about hosting a house party, and she agreed, she may have had something smaller in mind. i want to recognize my mother and father in law, they helped us pull this off. i am lucky in my in-laws.

my mom and dad, who are over here. governor brush and i have something in common, we both have strong, tough mothers. if you haven't had a chance to meet my mom and dad i hope you'll make that opportunity tonight. four years ago and the last primary season we had a lot of candidates running for president but we didn't have enough serious, credible candidates. if governor bush were to become a candidate he is the one person antidote for that problem. his family has distinguished itself in service to our nation. governor bush was a successful fiscally conservative two-term governor of a big and diverse state. education reform and innovation was a signature issue while he wants governor. -- was governor.

i appreciate governor bush has been a leading voice on fixing and modernizing our broken immigration system. join me in welcoming governor jeb bush. [applause] governor bush: thank you. thank you. thank you for doing this. this is my inaugural voyage at a house party that looks like this at least. [laughter] i am really honored to be here. thank you for coming. you could be doing other things. it is friday night. i am humbled you would come to hear me talk and to ask me questions and let me have it. before i start i want to talk about myself. people do know me as george and barbara's boy.

and george w's brother, and all of that, i am proud of. when i was born in midland texas, my eyes open and there i was crying for oxygen, and barbara bush was there. i didn't know at the time but i won the lottery. [laughter] i am blessed in so many ways. if i'm going to go beyond the consideration of running i have to share my heart and tell my life story and give people the sense that i have ideas to help people rise up. my life experience has been driven by my wife of 41 years . i met her in mexico when i was 17 years old and in exchange program. i fell madly in love with her. head over heels in love. i wanted to marry her. i had to figure a way to make a living. it is hard to make the pitch without having wherewithal to do it. i got out of school in two years and started working, i worked all of my adult life without missing more than a week off. that experience has been part of my life.

i signed the front side of a paycheck. i think we need more people with practical experience in that endeavor, the heartbeat of our country, in washington dc. we see this a massive -- this massive amount of oppressive rules on top of older rules that create complexity that makes it harder and harder for people to have a chance to have rising income. i was governor of the state of florida, which i recommend highly, for any young people. [laughter] two pieces of advice for young people who are interested in politics, run for governor don't settle for something not nearly as interesting, and run against a bad candidate if you can. it is easier. [laughter] or don't run against a guy who never lost. better to have a chance to win. i had a chance to serve. when i was a candidate in 1998

i had these deeply held views about education. this story is about how we start fixing problems in washington. my views didn't change much when i ran between 1994 and 1998. i wanted to take these deeply held views of turning the system upside down and shaking it so it could become more student centered. i went to visit 250 schools. it was a spectacular experience. people saw me for who i was. i showed my heart. i stood my ground. i learned a lot. i learned to share the need to reform our schools in a human context. it gave me the chance to do it. in florida we have led the nation in many categories in terms of rising student achievement, particularly kids in poverty that are always left behind. there is always another excuse. we can't afford that anymore.

our country is 56% majority minority. 57% free and reduced lunch qualified. we had a growing number of people that are poor, which is fine because they have every chance to rise up if we get it right. changing these big things, i had a chance to do as governor, we created the first statewide voucher program, the increase in charter schools, we eliminated social promotion in third grade. we advanced literacy to make sure children, the gaps didn't start early. we hit it on all cylinders. whether it was school choice, or accountability and florida did see big gains. we also build a better business climates. i cut taxes to the tune of $19 billion. we reduce the state government

workforce by 13,000, we cut interests in our state, the trial bar, or the folks making a lot of money off of the worker's comp. system. we had 1.3 million net new jobs during my eight years. i didn't do it. i was part of the 13,000 decreased in jobs. i was state governor. the private sector did a lot better. we were the only state who went to aaa. we were frugal. government didn't grow faster than people's income. they called me vito corleone. maybe i called myself that. [laughter] we've vetoed something like 2500 separate line items in the budget to create discipline and focus on how the budget works. the legislature ultimately responded. my point is, you can be a conservative, you can do it with joy in your hearts, you don't have to be angry about this. do it in a way that draws people towards our cause and you can win in a purple state. in this country if you are going to solve problems we have to

win. we have to go out and reach out to people of every walk of life, not with a divisive message, one that is unified. everyone should have a chance to rise up. everybody should have the god-given skills to achieve our own success. if i get beyond the consideration of this, i believe this country is on a precipice of the greatest time to be alive. if we had a strategy of high economic growth were income begins to rise nothing is going to stop this country. we should reflect on our greatness, not just our history, but our innovative spirit and ability to do things that the -- defies the imagination of the rest of the world. we should be optimistic and begin to govern to solve these problems so everybody gets optimistic. this is going to be a great time to be young. i would rather be your age than mine. [laughter] i appreciate you being here. i am happy to answer any questions.

this is up close and personal. [laughter] yes? >> i appreciate your principled stance on common core. what is the biggest misconception of common core? governor bush: this is a federal takeover of education. i oppose that. the best way to disprove that is for the reauthorization of the no child left behind act in congress now. in that act, in the reauthorization, there is a provision that says the federal government should have nothing to do with standards. the federal government should have nothing to do with content, directly or indirectly. the federal government should have nothing to do with curriculum. common core standards -- [applause] common core standards are higher standards than the standards of many states. as they have been embraced, some states don't want to have them, fine.

they should just have higher standards. call them sunshine state standards. call them what you want. the fact is we have dumbed down everything over a long time. this is not a new thing. as we have dumbed it down and have the politically correct curriculum, we have 80% graduation rate in high school. that is pretty good. it has gotten better. a third of our kids are college or career ready. who is fooling whom? we are giving people a piece of paper that says you are a high school graduate. then they go to the community college and find out sorry, you have to retake high school reading and high school math. who is fooling whom? are we going to be a great nation that has higher aspirations for people, or are we going to say it is someone else's fault, kids in poverty can't learn. too much bureaucracy. we should put away the excuses