from an organization that no one ever heard of. but now i feel as though there's this sort of coalescing of some sense of what a credible source is and what isn't. i think that's a great trend. brian: can i just add -- brian -- mike: can i just add, reince and something to me that registered to me as a former tv reporter myself, which is one of the frustrations, i was at nbc is to get into the nightly news or the format, the story got shorter and shorter. two minutes is like a huge takeout on tv news. i don't labor under the same encumbrances at yahoo!. i just got back two weeks ago from cuba and was able, actually , it was a fascinating trip to a -- trip.

i had the first interviews with the cuban five spies since they've gotten released by obama. and we were able to put together a seven-minute video that ran on the web that had really great stuff. both from interviews and walking the streets of havana with these guys who were celebrated as national heroes down there. if i had to do that for one of the network news, it would have been, if i could have gotten two minutes, it would have been a real gift. but i was able to do something much more in depth, and much more satisfying actually. jack: brian, is that proliferation of what you're able to expose the public to one of the reasons why abc chooses to make a very large investment in your team? brian: i think so. jack: if you just had the nightly news maybe you wouldn't , be able, they would want to make that investment. brian: i'm not sure about that

but i know that we are encouraged, almost demanded of us, for instance, the story about the iraqi army and allegations they're committing war crimes just as bad as isis itself, that was not particularly the kind of thing that would be desirable at the breakfast hour as people are watching, having dinner. and so we had a shorter piece on the world news but nevertheless that was 9 million people watching. a much longer piece that appeared online, facebook. that kind of reach, i think justifies the investment that , abc makes in its investigative unit. for us there's almost no story we can tell or find a place for. that gives us the opportunity to expand it. in terms of the business, they make a lot more money from television than they do right now from what's online but that is something that will evolve. we figure if you do good stories and they are available, people will find them. jack: brody, following up on

larry's comment about the increased, and i'm not sure i would agree with this, but the increased sophistication in the news consumers, starting to be able to differentiate on the internet, what is a legitimate source and what is an illegitimate source, how does "the wall street journal" deal with that in the sense that, like you don't want to go down the rabbit hole of all the comments about reports because that can be hard to listen to and hear. but the bottom line is, how does "the wall street journal" differentiate itself from, first of all, a myriad of a trade association magazines that are starting to look like "the wall street journal" and starting to sound like legitimate news publications, as well as all the other stuff that is out there? brody: we have a big advantage

in that we have a brand name. we have been around for 100 years. people know "the wall street journal" is. a lot of people trust "the wall street journal." a lot of people don't trust the wall street, but they know they are and they can make a decision. you can read in it to say this is coming from a can somebody point of view. i agree or i don't. on editorial, on the journalism side of it as you said earlier we've been a lot of stories sort of more pro-consumer stories that are intended to or you hope that they do affect public policy for good. find and root out wrongdoing and lead to policy changes that tell that. i'm glad you mentioned the reputation because that is what we would like to have. it goes back to my point about credibility and being careful that you don't make mistakes or that you were a credible messenger. all you have is your brand name. as soon as you make some mistakes or report things that

incorrect use that and then you will not have the trust of readers. >> so that goes back to you, lou. a lot of people are concerned that much of the information on the internet and internet news sources is unfiltered. you are an editor. is it because of folks like you and editors that are starting to clean up some of this information that's increasing its credibility? larry: i'm not sure. i think what's happened is the dynamic of what the web is very, the sort of quick accountability and quick response and dissemination through twitter and other means of, you know questions but something that popped up tens to kind of clean things up on its own a little bit. if somebody comes out with something that's not right or that is clearly wrong or from a source that is questionable, the accountability that happens much quicker. i think that over time that's my sense, it's built up that if something comes from the abc news or the journal or "the new york times," it's got a stronger bedrock of credibility if it comes from someplace that no one has ever heard of.

because people to experience have learned that a lot of these reports are built on very flimsy evidence. jack: now i'd like to open it up to all of you. we have, you know, incredible opportunity to figure out what it is that these four gentlemen are looking for from us. >> [inaudible] speaking of regional publications -- jack: if you could identify yourself. >> ted knutson, advisor magazine. was in chicago talking to some online invested reporters over the weekend and they raise the question. speaking of regional papers "st. louis , post-dispatch," the regional paper for ferguson to do you think if they had a strong investigative team there would

have been a ferguson? >> who wants to take that one? brian: i don't know enough about the st. louis post to answer that. i think they've done some very good work there. larry: i think they just got awarded the national press foundation for their coverage of this matter. brian: well, are you talking about prior to the event? prior to the event. >> [inaudible] brian: it's hard to know what i know, for instance, the "milwaukee journal" has been great reporting on their police department. it has faced their own struggles. i think they have shown themselves to be very tough. >> jonathan harris, commission

of consumer protections. i think you do great work and what you want to come up changing minds is a really crucial part of our democracy. i want to flip that on its head, especially comes to regional papers. in our state there is a regular column that is supposed be a watchdog on government. the journalist is top-notch. is excellent, both in his investigations in general and in his writing. the fact that he has to produce every single week, i don't think always gives him the ability to drill down, one. there is a pressure to always have content on a regular basis. it seems like at times one stories that might have validity to it keeps getting twisted around with maybe a different little fact, a different angle and i fear, and i've experience,

that it actually does the opposite and building this trust in government where it should be an something we do not need now. is that something you have seen as an editor? how do you deal with something that? larry: perhaps. [laughter] there is no question about talking about the advantage of the internet in terms of people having access to a lot more news and news organizations may be able to distribute their news more widely. that is all true. the downside has been since the beginning, as you say, the 24-7 cycles, the need for quick updates and the competitive landscape, which means that any scrap of news or information you have if you don't get it out quickly somebody else is going to get it out there quickly first and you will get behind the curve. all those forces are pressing against giving in-depth, thoughtful, long-term work and even on the deep reporting

level, not just sort of long-term investigative work so yes, it's been a problem. i think what has happened is that as that ecosystem created some of these new organizations to fill some of these gaps it seems there is an adjustment going on that will preserve accountability on watchdog work, but it's still a work in progress. mike: i just wanted to chime in. the tension between taking months and months to do that really in-depth investigative piece, between that and covering the news when you get it and when you get a nugget of interest putting it out there is something i think we all faced throughout my career. -- i think we all faced. i faced it throughout my career. i am not sure the answer is one or another.

i remember having this conversation with a boss of mine , bob woodward who actually , first hired me when i worked for the "washington post." he reminded me that watergate was an incremental story. they didn't take months and months to do the take out. they covered developments as they covered developments as they covered developments as they cover them. that led to more sources. more stories. very often covering it as you get it can be just as productive and informative for the reader as spending a long time to do those kinds of in-depth pieces. >> first, it has been interesting for me. god bless you on the issue.

the future of investigating journalism, right? investigative reporting. i would like to have your take or opinion on what about what i believe many americans now do not believe that the news media in general has much integrity or ethic or whatever? examples are you have got an anchor that tried to make himself a war hero. you got the far right high that far right guy saying he was in the middle of a combat ring and wasn't even in the falcon islands and all that crap going on it they make their own news. then to follow-up on the

ferguson thing, my god, that has been going on for so long and took the justice department to find out it was a cash generating trap in ferguson. in that context, what is your take on the integrity of the sources in the people that are presenting the news to us and what not? [laughter] >> 30 seconds. [laughter] >> whatever the shortcomings of reporters, nbc news is full of integrity. there are shortcomings. we all make mistakes. i think that is not there to say that it is a place not full of integrity. i think viewers trust it. they have a new anchorman now. doing a terrific job.

their view is haven't abandoned them. not convinced that is the case that one flawed person and one flood story suggest the whole place is bad. that is to brought of the brush. >> [inaudible] brian: i don't know the details. it is a place of integrity to this day i think. >> i appreciate you all being here. i have got two questions. one is about non-sexy stories that possibly need to be retold. the things that don't have some of the common attractive things and sort of a good follow-up.

some things can be -- it could lead to change. some of our social problems are huge and you multiple following up. i just mentioned gerrymandering. that is a profound national issue and yet, where will be get the commitment from the media to look at something like that that needs to be done? one is non-sexy news and sort of long-term things that need a real commitment from folks like you to follow them. which is the tooth those issues?

-- would you speak to those issues? >> that is what we specialize in. [laughter] let's look at the workers compensation system. that seems like a headline. we are not alone in this. you try to see, is this a real social issue? is this something that needs to be looked that? that is why you do this methodical data digging to find out what is really there. once you do, and unsexy store becomes an important story. you are seeing a credible disparities in the system. i think a lot of good journalism work starts from their. it is not just the big nonprofits that are doing it. >> chicago consumer correlation. consumers are always concerned these days about the sources of

sweatshops and shoes. most of your articles are international about the kind of news climate internationally that comes from the work that you do. my inbox had 20 different request for research about journalists who were assassinated or injured because of stories that they did. from the good work that you do abroad, what impact does that have a brought in terms of the kind of investigative reporting that could and should be taking place there? >> you have done a lot of that. >> certainly. i wish i could say the start has had more impact. the workers are really at the mercy of the coalition of the government and the manufacturers. a lot of stories have attempted to put pressure on the american

companies that take advantage of the cheap labor frankly. that is how we have had the greatest impact. i don't think -- i think if we could influence as we have, tommy hilfiger and other companies, have gone to bangladesh to make their clothes. that is the pressure point. it is very dangerous for journalists in those countries sometimes to tell the truth. easy journalist killed in mexico on a routine basis and trying to tell the truth of the drug cartels. certainly in the middle east. don't get americans who were murdered by isis tied to report on what was happening in syria. it can be very dangerous. i remember waking up for there were tried to tell the truth and not face retaliation.

it is a test environment. we live in a country with a first amendment that protects us. are those who don't use it to their full advantage, shame on them. >> good morning. consumer protection office. we as consumers love hidden camera stories. they are inherently so powerful. you cannot capture audio in some states. how does that interfere with what you do and to what extent would you like those laws changed? >> we are very aware of those laws. you can do it hidden cameras, but not hidden audio. we have a whole list when we are considering doing stories that involve hidden cameras. where can we not operate? it does have a direct impact on the ability to catch people in the act. it is a challenge.

we are very -- in maryland and california, it is a felony to record some of these audio without telling them. >> a quick interruption. as a printer reporter, do you find yourself getting involved in stories that need visuals that you decide not to do it and maybe vice versa? are there great visual stories that are too long, so you don't do them? >> not as much. and on think we had pictures until five years ago at all. [laughter] right. drawings. they spend a lot of time on the layout of it. it is not quite a television where your approach a story looking for visuals to go with it.

they encourage us to try to do online videos or accompaniments good to have video or videos. advertisers are paying for those sorts of things right now. it is not something i set out to do. >> high. i'm asking this question as individual not representing any organization. >> ic that it is all men. -- i see that ist is all men. it is all white. all the people who choose the stories, they are issues that are going on. this is the future, what is the problem? when you talk about people sidelining the law to other sources, it is because you are

going to telling the stories. decisions are not being at the top level that are broad. if you're talking about the future and what the demographics are going, this is disheartening. >> fabulist question. it would be great if each of you could delve into that as you look forward and as you look backwards and see who is coming up high and you. >> excellent point. you're looking at the past of investigated reporting. [laughter] despite the makeup of the panel things are changing in the newsrooms. there are a lot of women and african american and hispanics and asians taking responsibility in all of these groups. while we have been behind the not as aggressive as we should have been and being more diverse

, that is very much a topic. in terms of the topics that are toppled, it is a fair point that the people who are in the decision making are perhaps not as in touch as they should be for some of these other questions like inequality and race but i think by and large the main organizations are making efforts to address that. >> it is an absolutely excellent point. never city is important not just for the sake of diversity, but it does give you other perspectives on what is the story? this doesn't speak directly to the issue of women or african americans or minorities. how you view something is very

much you could do something a little bit differently and feta made what use north of my not think of the store could become an incredible story. i remember covering the boston marathon a bombing. at the time it was a terrorism story. everyone was focused on who did this and where there are links were abroad? i remember watching when they identified the suspect brothers and are searching for the one who is now on trial and is seeing all the humvees and

national guards and troops coming in heavily armed, it was amazing. it was like being in a war zone. at the time, i wasn't thinking about the militarization of our police departments and what kind of environment that was creating . i was covering a terrorism story. in retrospect, there it was. the same story that got a lot of people alarmed during ferguson. it was fully on display in boston. that is not what people are talking about the time. i use that as an example of how you look at something. your eyes open. you see a major story. that is something that diversity can contribute to. it is sort of the onus on us to take a step back and look at what we are seeing.

you suddenly see there is lots of other things to report. >> thank you for all the good work you have done. i would like to get more collaboration on the question of how you prioritize your work? do have anything that says you're looking for the greatest good for the greatest number? >> that is a good question. i think the heart of the issue is that it is hard to figure out what the priority should be on a day-to-day racist. i come into the office and make a list of the stories i want to do in that year. if you days later, it is a little bit of a different list in a few days later, it is a different list. i try to look for stories i can

do on the short-term that stays relevant in the news. i try to pick for five stories whether sexy are not to do in that year so while you get distracted with the noise that is out there, you try to keep your eye on the ball and a good story can do on a monthly or quarterly basis. i think every good reporter has to do that. few people are getting a year run to work on one story. you need to compartmentalize yourself. i think that is what you have got to do, otherwise you're constantly writing 300 word stories. >> stories affect millions of people. stories that have visuals and stars we haven't heard of before

-- stories we haven't heard of before. it are threshold questions i would ask. how many people are affected? how do we tell the story? has someone else done this before? >> thank you. >> anything? well, this has been phenomenal. brody, larry brian, thank you very much for spending time with us. [applause] >> on newsmakers, adam schiff is our guest.

he talks about the isis threat and cyber security in the recent controversy over hillary clinton's e-mails. watching the interview at 10:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. on c-span. >> next on c-span, a hearing on improper social security payments and then a town hall event with president obama. and at 7:00 eastern "washington journal." >> the social security administration last year made a total of $125 billion in improper payments and the senate homeland security and governmental affairs committee held a hearing with officials. the committee heard testimony from julie rivers talked about her experience as being mistakenly reported as deceased by the social security administration death master file. it is a computer database which

holds over 100 million records of reported deaths since 1936% is over two hours. >> it will come to order. first of all, i want to welcome all of the witnesses and appreciate your thoughtful testimony in the hearing is called "examining improper payments e and errs in the death master file." we have a victim that has been the victim of inaccuracies of our death master file, miss judy rivers. when i read your testimony, i would everybody

but i would like to say we are going to start off with miss rivers testifying and i will offer each senator is a chance to make statements. we are time constraints. we want to hear ms. rivers' story. but, i have got a written statement from which i will enter into the record without objection. i would like to turn it over to our rating member senator tom carper was been working on this and i will not say how many years for you you're trying to correct it. i think you have more to say. senator carper: thank you for pulling this together and our eyewitnesses. as you know, improper payments

for the last decade. [indiscernible] i know he is here in spirit with us. [indiscernible] there's a whole ton of it. while our fiscal situation is improving, we have a budget deficit, about 1/3 of what it was five or six years ago. we have a debt of $18 trillion. agencies are struggling with tight budgets and facing sequestration, we cannot afford making $125 billion in improper payments like we may last fiscal year. and proper estimate of a $19 billion increase over the previous year after going down a number of years. these pumas, from over -- these

payments, from over 70 agencies. get a better handle on our debt and improve impressions of our money. we need to avoid mistakes. congress has already taken steps to help agencies address address. improper payments were introduced in the house in 2002. improper payments action required agencies to estimate the level of payments made each year. 2010, dr. coburn and i followed up. it expanded the requirements for agencies to identify and prevent and recover improper payments. 2012 senators and i went further with the improper act in

nomination for debt elimination. -- improper act elimination. designed to screen all federal payments in order to double check. simply put, do not pay allows a government agency to check whether someone should be paid before the government pays them. hope to have a discussion with witnesses today especially our witnesses about how all of these legislative issues are working or are not working and what should be considered. spend time today to consider the agencies making payments to people who are deceased. for example, this director general reported that some 600 million dollars in improper payments were made to federal retirees who were found to have died in the previous years from such payments are not unique to this one program. [indiscernible]

data on individuals who have died are hundreds of millions or billions of improper payments for i am they flew to be working for our chairman and colleagues on this committee -- i am thankful to be working with our chairman and colleagues on this committee. unfortunately, we have more work ahead. last week, the social security inspector general released reports of 6 million people have active social security numbers that based on social security's on workers would be more than 112 years old. maybe in our country, with had a handful of people live that long. we are told their kobe 6.5 million people. i am not sure where there are. -- we are told that there are 6.5 million people. [indiscernible] it shows people born before the civil war.

only 35 people worldwide are 112 years or older. we will hear from the social security administration about accurate administration -- information about who is alive or dead. an accurate death data may lead to in improper payments across government increase greater vulnerability for fraud. we will learn more about this in today's witness. my administration -- in my view is of administration deserves a lot of credit. we needed to do more. they use every tool to put our fiscal house back in order. it is the right thing to do. i often think of the preamble of the constitution about a perfect union. in this area, we should strive

for perfection. everything we do, we know it can be better i look forward to working with the administration. to make real progress this year on reducing improper payments. thank you so much for your senator thomas: we swear in witnesses. raise your right hand. do you swear the testimony you will get before the committee will be the truth, the whole truck -- the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god? our first witness this afternoon will be ms. judy rivers, she is a private citizen. she has twice been listed as a dead issue will tell her story. ms. rivers, i commend you for being willing to go public with your trials and tribulations and

hopefully, your story can help prevented this from happening to other americans. we look forward to your testimony. would you turn your microphone please, ma'am? judy rivers: i was told to do that. no -- first of all, good afternoon chairman johnson and ranking member carper. thank you for inviting me to speak about my experiences with the death master file. my name is julie rivers and i've twice been listed on the death master file. the first incident occurred in 2001 and it was fairly plain lists -- painless. i had no idea it had happened. i had a couple of identity have to situations. somebody forged name to my bank. i had never heard of the death master file.

we got those cleared up and i continued on. the second occurrence happened during the last -- one of the worst periods of my life. i've spent 17 months taking care of two terminally ill parents and probably one of the lowest point in my life at the time. this situation did not help anything. i could never had imagined i would reach the point of helplessness and financial destitution, loss of reputation and unable to find a job, an apartment, student loans for even buy a cell phone. without a social security number , you could do nothing in the united states. suspected as an identity thief was a way of life. during the last five years every hr person i interview with , police have pulled me over for perhaps going too fast -- the

first thing they do is go through your records. when you come up as deceased or the insurance actually do not know if it below see you are not, then a lot of questions start. it but comes extremely uncomfortable. i would like to make it clear that all the problems i've had it during the past five years are not only as a direct result of the death master file. however, the death master file has been like a -- underneath all of my problems. every single problem i have had, the death master file situation and the fact i do not have an identity has made everything worse. it started when i was providing full-time care of my parents like i said pretty my peers passed away -- my parents passed away. and my entire life at the age of

17, i have supported myself, put myself through school. i have never not had a job, not to worked, owned my own firm for 30 something years and have been very blessed in that area. when i started looking for a job at an apartment and i am not able to get one, what is going on here? everywhere i searched, everywhere i applied, i was turned down. finally, i had to leave my parents' home quickly so i contacted an old friendly -- old friend. that few weeks turned into three months. unfortunately, his landlord asked me to leave because i was not on the lease. i went apartment searching. again, the question of my validity, my credibility, and the fact that my social security number did not check out. i was unable to find an apartment anywhere.

after searching for three weeks and with no choice, it was something i thought happened on television. i had to move into my car. i did research on the internet and got basic information on how to do that. and the best place to park was truck stops for protection. my puppies and diet lived in my car for the -- and -- my puppies and i lived in my car for 3.5 months. i kept going off further in the areas of alabama such as logan in order to find somewhere there probably did not check that closely i was still unsuccessful. my situation improved after i ran into an old friend named mary kate. mary kate had an apartment -- excuse me, a business building. on top, she had converted to an apartment.

being sympathetic to my situation, she offered the apartment to me. i was in the apartment two hours later after the approval. it was huge and empty. i felt like i was living in a castle. no nothing. all my furniture was in dallas where i was living with my parents. she brought me a few things and i was one very happy person. during that time while i lived there, i continued my search for a job. i continued my search for a student loan. i reviewed what was available and decided to increase my skills especially in project management. i applied over 20 online schools

and three physicals goes for a student loan in order to take courses and get my certification. everybody turned me down. the information i received when i asked why i was being turned down, i was included, such as "your information cannot be verified." "your social security number did not match." or "we cannot find your records." but coming concerned, i went to my local ssa offeiice to ask them to check the files. they did a fast check and said no, your records are in order a you are alive. i said, well, couldn't there be a mistake in the past? i was that we can't check the past. your name would've been removed. and we do not retain those.

there was no way to tell them if i had been listed or i had not fixes everything was in order, it was fine and i thought i was five. my situation went from bad to worse. the apartment building i was living in, a year and a half later a fire code made it unnecessary for me to live. it only had one entrance and exit which was unacceptable at the time. unfortunately, one more time, i had to move back into the car again. it was beginning to become a habit. the next thing that happened to me in march -- excuse me of 2010, i was involved in a car accident. a lady hit me, rear ended a me

while i was sitting at a red light. i do not feel anything or hear anything. i woke up in the hospital a few days later and was told i had to seven vertebrae that were in pretty bad shape. they also kept asking me all of these questions and there was a lot of confusion about my insurance and whether i owned the car i was in or if i really was who i said i was. i called an attorney. turned everything over to a legal firm and said whatever is happening, please get me out of it. i went home. excuse me -- i meant the car. i went back to the car is started researching. and frankly trying to find anybody who could help me. during that time, i contacted the internal revenue service and the -- the social security administration. fcra, everyone i couldn't think

of in every name that came off in my searches for any information for any help. no agency could offer me any help. the first person i spoke to that offered be insight was pam dixon and nina olson, they were both great help to me of providing the information. nothing to do, no apartment still no job, still unable to find any kind of job. a couple at my church found out my situation and offered me a camper they had of their property in which to live. i graciously and humbly accepted the invitation. i said i would only be here for a few months and i will be out of your hair. actually i am still there. the good thing out of it is these people have become very close to me a very close to parents and have taken me into their family.

i have really enjoyed knowing them. living in a cap are, especially with two puppies is not a lot of fun. the only work i have been able to obtain is work such as cleaning houses and caregiving. and very candidly, coming from an executive position with a six-figure income, not something you would like, but something you do when you have to do it. one of the problems really, frankly, it is a bad database that paves the way for billions of dollars of identity theft tax fraud, health care fraud medical tehfheft. it's seldom goes away when it hits you as in my experience. the problem is when you get one area cleared up such as one credit reporting agency are one of banking institution report,

the problem is someone calls them for report and when they are on the phone and i listened to this happen. they say, well this woman has applied for 23 credit cards in four years. nobody needs that many. she cannot be honest. then write back on the list of again and nothing goes forward. it is a matter of every time you get one resolved, it pops up somewhere else. you get one school to approve a loan in two weeks, they contacted other people and they have denied the loan. the standpoint of trying to handle the entire situation, i have not figure out a way to control it. i would like to say this -- i have contacted all three csra's, the major, banking, financial

institutions. only one company in three years ever responded to me. they do not answer phone calls. they do not answer letters. i had no idea what was going on. finally, i contacted mr. ron who started the dmf. ron and his brother, robert, made several phone calls. they check their database and said i've been listed in january of 2001. finally, chexsystems contacted me and sent me a letter is saying yes, they had reportedly as deceased and the information they received was directly from the social security administration and i was listed as dead in 2008. they do not provide a month, however. so, i found out where the

information was coming from but not a wit to stop it even though i have been removed from the death master file. what i am hoping and what i do not understand is that just in the research i have done, i have been in over 20 hearings on the death master file is so far i have seen nothing, out of any of the hearings. what i am hoping is that you will create a program that will first of all provide help for victims because we have nowhere to go. secondarily, you will either stop distributing the database or find a way to start over again, rebuild it, and do it correctly. and have a zero mistake. in thank you for having me here. i appreciate it. and please, do something for the government and do something for the victims. senator johnson: thank you, very

powerful testimony. that is the goal of the committee hearing is tried to work towards solution. my question is -- you have been removed from the death master file. was that prompted by your action? do you know when it occurred or did you find that it just happened? judy rivers: actually, you will find it is a bit funny. i only found out it happened in the past couple of weeks. i was actually listed on the death master file in 2008. check system had the one person that answer to my letter and send me a letter that was dated august 22. the reality was i was sending them correspondence in october and further. it is letter, it stated they had reportedly as a deceased upon information received upon social security administration and that

i had died in 2008. senator johnson: they were surprised to see you working with the social security administration where you filled out forms and knew your name was removed from death master file? judy rivers: yes, sir. senator johnson: you went through that? judy rivers: several times. senator johnson you only find out you were removed? judy rivers: the letter said send us the information and i missed the part where is said we did report to as deceased in october -- they do not tell me the year. we reported you as deceased and based on information, you died in 2008. and asked me to send information and they would do an investigation. senator johnson: we will ask some of those questions of our other witnesses. i would encourage everybody to read ms. rivers' testimony. senator carper?

senator carper: thank you and i apologize for what you have had to go through. i just want to apologize. on a lighter note, i asked a friend of mine and he said, tell me about the death master file. what is it? he said to me, it is a file on which you do not was your name to appear because if it does, you are dead. as it turns out, not always. you are living proof. if you had to go through all over again knowing what you know now, what would you do differently? and what would you suggest that we do? everyone of us have constituency teams and our job is to help people. and when the issues we deal with is a lot of social security. if you were a delaware said -- citizen, we have been all over

this. all over this. just keep that in mind. what would you do differently and what should we do differently? judy rivers: right at this moment, i really other than flying up to washington, d.c. as sitting at the social security administration, i do not know what i would've done differently. having been in marketing and communications and business development area for 35 years when i found out what was happening, i sat down and created a marketing plan for myself. i am very thorough in that area. a letter campaign to companies all over the united states. i contacted everyone in systems i could think off. i searched for companies and i found that one thing is if i'd experienced a major identity theft at the beginning, i would

been much better off because at that point, i would've been alerted. i cut a filed a police report and somebody would've investigated. at the point that i was where there was no identity theft very candidly, nobody took it seriously. senator carper: what should we do differently? judy rivers: regarding dmf totally? senator carper: to make sure it doesn't happen again. judy rivers: i think the database needs to be cleansed thoroughly. an agency should be put in charge of it that actually can control it and also the source of which are the information is obtained should be clarified. i think it very strong regulations should be placed on the agencies distributing the information because one of the

regulations is verify the information before it is used. i was listed twice and never -- and nobody ever contacted me. all of the people i've talked to, nobody contacted them. the first thing i would do it immediately, i would develop a communications program for people, both living people listed mistakenly and additionally individuals of families that have been deceased and the deceased person has been used for tax fraud, identity theft, draining the bank account . these people have nowhere to go either. they hurt just as badly as i do. there is not one website, not the one place to call, no one in that knows anything. i visited 18 separate social security offices for out of the 18, only 12 new what the death master file was pretty even within the system, the word is

not getting through. these people need to be trying to provide information. senator lankford: a point of interest for me. how did you prove you were alive? what the documents it did you have to bring in when you finally had the opportunity to explain? what were you asked to show? judy rivers: social security administration asked for your birth certificate, if you have a print drivers license, or photograph id. it would like to have copies of invoices or correspondence you received at your place of business or home. copies of check stubs. every single thing that would identify you as you improve it as a you. they are thorough going through it. additionally, all of the information i included in every

package i sent out to every company that i contacted. senator lankford thank you. senator peters: quite compelling testimony. thank you. i feel that he went through desperate. we have to get through the bottom. it is not the first time i've heard of this case. we had a case in michigan where and more was listed as a dead twice and lost veterans benefits and had the treasury department close his accounts. unfortunately, there are others in this situation. the question, you mentioned in your testimony that in 2008 is when you learned you were listed as dead that you mentioned you want to the social security administration and they told you everything was ok. where was that in the sequence of events and when did the record actually get cleared or

isn't something you constantly get put back on the list? if you could clarify. judy rivers: let me clarify. i didn't learn i was deceased in 2008 print in 2008 is where the problems started happening. i was not aware of what was causing this the actual first time i found out i had been listed as deceased was after my accident the insurance company settled. i went to a new bank and opened an account. they were happy to open my account and take my money, when i went back three days later to open a savings account, they reason me through the system. the bank manager came over and ran me through the system and said we can't help you today. and i said why not? and she said because the information we have reported you as deceased. i demanded to know who was reporting the information and

also where it was coming from and as opposed toedly what day i died. they absolutely refused to tell me anything. by laws and under fcra, i thought i was entitled to that information. however the bank refused to give anyway information. check systems. april 2010 was when i found out i was on the death master file. senator: several times you had gone and they told you repeatedly you were ok. clearly you were not ok. you were being given inaccurate information even though you were going to the office? judy rivers: correct. senator: thank you for your

testimony. you're dismissed. senator johnson: our next testimony will be sean brune. mr. brune: thank you senator johnson. senator carper members of the committee. i am sean brune senior advisor of finance management at the social security administration. my remark also focus on the accuracy and how we collect that information. to timely stop paying social security beneficiaries who have

died and to begin paying benefits to survivors. each year we post about 2.8 million death reports from family members, funeral homes and states. this information serves us well sprepting about $50 million in improper payments each month. over the years we have improved our process and this information is highly accurate. of the millionors reports we receive yearly they are still corrected. since 2002 we have worked with states to increase electronic. identify the name of a deceased individual before they issue or transmit a report of death to

us. thus that information reported through e.d.v. the most accurate possible. currently 37 states, the city of new york and the districtor colombia report deaths to us through e.d.r. we are currently carrying out a major multi-year design to make it more efficient and reliable. accurate information is important not only for our programs but because we share the information with other agencies and with the public. as a result, the lawsuit brought against us under the freedom of information act, we must share death information we collect and maintain from nonstate sources. we do so by distributing it through the department of commerce. sharing this public file, sub scribers with informed and have been informed for many years that f.s.a. does not have a death record for all persons, that we cannot guarantee

veracity of a file and that the -- of particular person is not proof that person is alive. the department is required to share nondeath information on an immediate basis with entities that have a lenlt business purpose or a fraud prevention interest. however, under the bipartisan budget act of 2013 the public may only access non-state death information that is at least three years old. congress put this restrix on so people cannot use a dead person's information to seek fraudulent tax refunds. we are limited in our ability to share information specifically turned social security act, we may share state death information anded a minute stir federally funded benefits . thus we share all of our information with medicare and

medicaid services, the department of defense and the i.r.s. among others. treasuries do not pay portal is an important part of the efforts to fight improper payments and allow federal agencies to carry out a review of databases with information on eligibility before they release federal funds. however under current law we cannot provide state death information to the department of treasury for purposes of do not pay. to remedy this it includes a proposal that would authorize us to share all of the death information we maintain with do not pay. we note that f-614 introduced by ranking member carper, co-sponsored by chairman johnson also aims to address this gap. we would be happy to provide technical assistance to this committee on its bill.

we would also ask congress to support the department of health and human service's request for funding in e.d.r. reports collected through e.d.r. are accurate and we believe the adoption of e.d.r. would be the most important step of ensuring our death records are of the highest quality. i would hope you would support the proposal that will help detect, prevent and recover improper payments included in the president's fiscal year 2016 budget proposal. finally i would like to recognize work of our office of inspector general, most recently in an audit in which they looked at death information in decades old records. we're pleased they found no fraud in the social security program or any other federal program.

as i explained in my written statement, these recommendations have led to enhancements in our systems. thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss this important issue. i would be happy to answer any questions that you have. senator johnson: thank you, mr. o'carroll has 26 years of service for the united states secret service. mr. o'carroll? mr. o'charle: thank you for the opportunity to participate in this discussion. my office investigates social security misuse. a man opened two bank accounts with social security number that belong to people born in 1896 and 1893. we can safely assume these

people today who would be 129 and 122 are deceased. however, according to f.s.a.'s database and social security number horlsde these people are alive. the f.s.a. does not have dates of death for either person. our auditors followed up and found these records were anything but unique. 6.5 million people whose social security records indicate they are over 112 years old do not have a date of death on the social security record. without a date, these people do not appear on the death master file. i should note none of these aged number holders are improperly receiving social security benefits and overpayments are not occurring, but these inaccuracies create a significant void that is available to the public.

we recommend that f.s.a. update the record. this audit is relevant to today's discussion on improper payments because benefit-paying agencies like h.h.s. and i.r.s. and other private entities use the death master file to verify death and payment accuracy. the act of 2012 included a do not pay provision which requires federal agencies to review lists of deceased before making payments. the death master file is one of those lists. to identify and prevent its own and other agency's improper payments they must correct and maintain accurate death records. it is important that living individuals are not listed as deceased in f.s.a.'s records. there are less than 1,000 cases each month in which a living individual is included on the death master file. f.s.a. said it moves quickly to

fix the situation when it curse. they have not found evidence of past data misuse. however, we remain concerned because these errors can lead to benefit trm nation and cause harpship to those affected. i have addressed in my written statement actions that would delay the public release of death data through the death master file. we believe these actions could mitigate some of the issues i just mentioned. f.s.a. must accurately process the death reports it receives to avoid overpayments. in several audits, they have paid millions of dollars to beneficiaries after their deaths. they now match their payment records with the number of

horlsde. these initiatives improved s.s.a.'s ability to recover overpayment and refer allegations of deceased payee fraud to our office. last year we investigated over 600 people for fraud. this is individuals cho use someone's death to collect social security benefits. $5 million in recoveries and restitutions and projected savings. in one example a woman collected her mother's benefits for 35 years after her mother died. s.s.a. identified this case through medicare nonutilization project. last year the woman pled guilty to government debt and was sentenced to 18 months of house

arrest. she was ordered to pay $300,000. this is a high investigative priority. cases of deceased payee fraud can lead to significant government recoveries and savings and federal prosecution efforts can help deter others from committing this crime. i want to acknowledge our autotask force work has garnered recent national media attention. we're pleased our efforts are making an impact on overdue discussions on these issues. we do not do this work to make news headlines. we do this work and will continue to do it to continue s.s.a.'s programs. this will be our mission. we continue to work with s.s.a. and its committees. thank you for the opportunity to testify and i'll be happy to answer any questions. senator johnson: mr. mader held

various positions at the i.r.s. from 1971-2003 and 10 years in the federal sector before rejoining the service. mr. mader? mr. mader: thank you for inviting me today to discuss the government's ongoing efforts. i appreciate the opportunity to provide an update on this important topic. our partnership with the congress consultation with g.a.o. and the important support of the i.g. community over the the years has been vital to our efforts. addressing improper payments is a central component of this administration's effort to eliminate waste, fraud and abuse. when the president took office in 2009, the improper payment rate was at an all time high. since then they have made

progress by strengthening the accountability and transparency through annual reviews by inspector jens and expanded retirements for high priority programs such as a requirement to report supplemental measures and programs. as a result of this concerted effort, in 2013, we reported an improper rate of 3.53%. during fiscal year 2014 we experienced an improper rate increase in major programs including medicaid, earned income tax credit and other programs experienced decrease including medicare part c supplemental nutritional assistance program and public housing assistance. these changes resulted in a government-wide improper payment

rate of a 4.02% or $125 billion. agencies recovered roughly $20 billion in overpames through payment recapture audits and other measures in 2014. progress has been made over the years, the time has come for a more aggressive strategy to reduce levels of improper payments than we are currently seeing. that is why the administration has proposed to make a significant investment in activities to ensure that taxpayer dollars are spent correctly by expanding oversight activities in the largest benefit program in increasing investments. over the years the administration has worked with the congress on legislation regarding this topic and these laws have provided agencies with new tools to reduce and recover improper payments. the president's fy 16 budget is building on this support and n

reducing improper payments. there is compelling evidence that it can significantly decrease the rate of improper payments and recoop many times their initial investment. the examples and proposals in the fy 16 budget include a robust package of medicaid integrity proposals, strategic reinvestments in the i.r.s., a robust package of social security program integrity proposals, a proposal to expand the department of labor's initiative to conduct reemployment and eligibility and employment services. improving further the accuracy of the death master file by sharing across multiple agencies. in addition, and this began long before we knew what the improper

payment rate was going to be for the fiscal year, the office of management and budget issued an appendix to its circular on internal controls titled requirements for remediation of improper payments. agencies were instructed to re-examine improper payment strategies on a number of fronts government-wide. these new guidelines were issued in october of 2014 and provide strategies for agencies and inspector generals to key on improper payments. in addition to these government-wide initiatives, on february 26, 2015, the director of o.n.b. sent letters to four organizations, d.o.l., f.s.s., f.h.a. and treasury that had the largest priority programs. this direction requires the early implementation of the appendix requirements i just mentioned by april 30 of this year. the direction further requires that each agency conduct the

following analysis and present it to o.n.b. one a corrective action plan for each program this question. two review new categories for reporting improper payments. and three, provide analysis linking the agency efforts in establishing internal controls to the internal controls that they have for improper payments. under this administration administration we have focused on the increased use of technology. the effective use of data an litics also provides insight into the methods of improving the performance and decision making capability. examples of agencies currently using allen itics d.o.l.'s, integrity center for excellence. improper payments remains a high priority to this administration although progress has been made

much more remains to be done and we need your help. we look forward to working the congress to pass the president's 16 budget and we expect additional progress as we execute against our new improper payment guidance during this fiscal year. thank you for give me the opportunities to testify and i look forward to your questions. senator johnson: thank you, mr. mader. our next guest is ms. davis. ms. davis: thank you for the opportunity to be here today to discuss improper payments and the use of death data to prevent data payments to deceased individuals. 2014 it is estimated improper payments totaled $124.7 billion. this is an increase of 19 billion.

increased error rates in three major programs. medicare, medicaid and the inearned income tax credit. these three programs accounted for 65% of the 2014 estimate. nevertheless, improper payments are a government-wide problem. the $124.7 billion estimate was attributable to 120 programs across the 2 agencies. 12 programs had estimates exceeding $1 billion. one large program, temporary assistance to needy families more than $16 billion did not report an estimate crithe statutory senator johnson: say that again, please? ms. davis: more than $16 billion did not provide an estimate citing the statute of limitations.

the issue of improper payments as a material weakness of control because the government is unable to determine the full extent to which it curse and ensure appropriate -- it occurs and ensure appropriate actions are taken. criteria with n a proper payments legislation. in december 2014 we reported that 10 agencies did not comply with all the criteria for 2013 as required by their inspectors general. the two most monoareas were publishing and improper payment reduction targets and reporting error rates below 10%. there are a number of strategies that agency consist employee to reduce improper payments. including causes of improper payments in order to design. one major route cause is insufficient documentation. for example, h.h.s. reported this as a primary root cause for

home health claims. another driver such as the earned income tax program the failure to verify eligibility requirements including recipient income for the number of dependents. one example is to address underlying root causes, the eligibility valtation through sharing of data such as the s.s.a. death data. it is a web-based data matching service that allows agencies tost to review different services to determine payment eligibility prior to making payments. s.s.a. is uniquely positioned to collect and manage death data to prevent improper payments at the proper level. s.s.a. maintains two sets of death data available to certain eligible entities contains data from many sources such as funeral directors, family

members. the death master file, which is available to public is a subset of the full file because it does not contain death data from states. while reviewing death data can be a useful tool for agencies, there are opportunities for s.s.a. to improve the accuracy of this data. we have reported the procedures for collecting, verifying and maintaining death reports could result in erroneous death data. for example, we reported in 2013 that s.s.a. did not independently verify death reports for all social security beneficiaries or any nonbeneficiaries before including them in death records. when death data is not verified there is an increased risk that such data will be inaccurate or incomplete. other agencies could use this data and make improper payments. we identified several types of errors with death data.

the date of death proceeded the date of birth and ages of death reported as between 115-195 years of age. we recommended a risk assessment to address them and the feasibility and cost effectiveness of doing so. our report noted they lacked guidelines to access the full death file. we recommended they develop and public lissize guidance to determine access eligibility and better inform agencies as to when they might be eligible for access to more complete death data. because it can be a useful tool in data matching, efforts are needed to minimize the risks posed by incomplete death data and ensure agencies receive appropriate access to these data. as a final point we would like

to emphasize it is critical that actions are taken to reduce improper payments. there is considerable opportunities for agencies auditors and other members of the accountability community to work together with congress ensuring that taxpayers' dollars are adequately safeguarded and used for their intended purposes. chairman johnson, ranking member carper members of the committee, this completes my prepared statement. i along with my colleague who works on the death master file are happy to answer any questions 3689 senator johnson: thank you. i was going to mention that he has joined the panel here. he might assist in answering questions. i'll start by questioning mr. brune. did you take a look at ms. river's case to find out what the status is of her current status?

mr. bruin -- brune: i did not look at the specification of her case. i think it would be unwise to discuss that in an open forum but i would be ame happy to answer your questions. senator johnson: how many people are you aware are in her position? mr. brune: fewer than 9,000 people a year have that happen to them. we learn of the occurrence by the visual reporting it directly to us. we advise the individual we can correct that if they visit our office as ms. rivers identified. we request that the individual bring several proofs of identity with them including a state-issued identity and a berth certificate if they have one so that we can correct the record. when the individual leaves our office we issue them a letter

indicating that there was an error and that it has been corrected. senator johnson: the name may be removed from the death master file but the effects continue to linger correct? can you describe what happens there with credit agencies and banks and credit card companies? mr. brune: sure, the social security administration secures the public death master file as she indicated. still around 84 million records with the department of commerce. commercial entities can procure that record, that database from the depts of commerce. it is widely used across not only government, but the commercial sector as well. the department of commerce requires parties that receive that information to subscribe to updates, but sometimes i would suspect all entities who have looked at a death master file

have not looked at the most current. senator johnson lon how often do you update your death master file with commerce? mr. brune:weekly. depends on the contractal arrangement that an entity has with the department of commerce. senator johnson: can you just kind of describe how somebody who is listed on a death master file, how identity theft consist create fraud with those names. i can understand the master file is published and people can quickly try and claim a tax refund with that social security number which is why now law states that information is going to be held for three years. how else is that fraud committed? mr. brune: i think our inspector general might be in better position to answer.

mr. o'carroll: one of the ways we're finding fraudsters are doing it is they will go to a state record listing all the deceased people in it and then they will take a look at one of the death master files and see if a person is alive in one record and dead in the other record on it. what they will do is claim to be that person and then go after their benefits. that is one method of it. as we know in other cases on it they will adopt the name and the information of the person and file for credit on it and default. senator johnson: why don't we just purging the death master file from anybody over a certain age? mr. brune: let me say the records in the death master file we procure largely from the states. state bureaus of vital statistics, the individual family members dock task force.

-- doctors. it has been in existence since we began over 80 years ago. the recordkeeping processes as you might imagine have involved over 80 years. our current program policy requires evidence of death. the risk in just doing a blanket update or blanket change in data is that it is highly likely that we would create another scenario just like mrs. rivers because in the report, they identified in that group of 6.5 million there were in fact living individuals. the reason that is is because oftentimes individuals who are auxiliaries on the records spouses, children, etc., are listed under a number and they are connected in our databases, but the way we connected them in

years past is not as accurate as it is right now. so it is possible that while primary number holder may be deceased there is records linked to that that are not -- that are records of individual s that arenot deceased. the primary reason we don't do that is that we want to prevent any inadvertent additions to the d.m.s. of individuals who are still live. senator johnson: mr. o'carroll we are talking of how many people over 112 you identified? mr. o'carroll slons have 6.5 million. senator johnson: how many people that are living today that are over 112? mr. o'carroll: one of the records we have is one database will show them as deceased and another will show them as alive.

there is 1.4 million of them. we vice president really set a number. we go on the fact that about we use the estimate sort of similar to mr. brune about 1,000 a month living people report that they are alive when they are on the death master file. senator johnson: why don't we just purge -- list on the -- a date of death for people that are over, i don't know, let's start with 150. maybe next knock it down to 140 and then 130 and have some sort of protection for somebody that just might -- we are talking about 6.5 million records out there. there is about 6.49999 really of those people that are really dead and are not going to be affected by this. why don't we do that to prevent

that this type of situation curse or allows. mr. o'carroll: one of the thoughts is s.s.a. could make a noteation on each of those files of people over 112 years of age and make that noteation as a person -- you had to get a replacement social security card. say you're a battered spouse and you have to get a new number for security reasons. they put a record or a spin it shows that you have two social security numbers. what we're recommending is why don't they just put a record like that on all the people over 112 years of age so that way, it one, would reflect them as deceased and two, if accidentally, somebody who had a birth date of 1957 that was keyed in as 1857 and they realized that they were losing benefits as deceased, s.s.a., it would be easy tr them to repair it. senator johnson: can the social

security administration do that themselves or do you need congress to pass a law to let that happen? mr. brune: the audit was issued 10 days ago. the good news is they have looked at this topic previously. we had analysis prior to the audit's release. we have been able to electronically verify data an update 200,000 records based on prior audits. we are currently reviewing those 6.5 million records. we're hoping there is information in our data that will allow us to maybe not confirm the date of death but confirm that an individual is deceased and that individual can be marked as such. senator johnson: when you complete your analysis, come to us as quick as possible. senator carper? senator carper: thank you so

much. we appreciate t. i'm going to go back a little bit in time. i never thought much of the improper payments until 2002. i think so it was a house member who proposed that we at least start requiring agencies to note what improper payments are. and secondly begin reporting them. every year after that, 2003, 2004 2005, i noticed there was an increase in the number of improper payments. i didn't feel good about it because the number kept going up. somebody finally said reason why they are going up is more and more agencies are getting onboard and beginning to report improper payments. along around 2010 we reached a point where we sensed that maybe

most of the agencies reporting improper payments -- we added a requirement. we want agencies to figure out what they are recording, that was this 2002, we said we also want the agencies to stop making improper payments. we also said we want them to the extent that they can recover moneys we want them to recover misunderstand. 20 billion is a pretty good slug of money. our next step was to have a do not pay list. part of our 2012 legislation. last congress we tried to go beyond that and go after payments to dead people and that sort of thing. we didn't get the legislation through the house. because one subcommittee within the ways and means committee. we're going to take another run

at it. i was stunned when i saw the improper payments number for 2014. we have seen a number of years the numbers going down beginning in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 then its up by about $20 billion in 2014. our friend mr. mader gave us a very good to do list. i won't go through it all but it involves integrity, work in a variety of areas. involves the i.r.s. giving them the tools they need. we have a lot of people that do work on the earned income tax credit. 2/3 or 3/4 of the people who help people file for it are people that are not c.p.a.'s, they might be very good people but they are not really regulated by the -- they don't have the kind of credentials that we might hope. i want you to drill down on that point.

there is a lot of talk here, discussion on the social security aspects of this and paying people that are dead and listing folks that are 150 years old. i want you to drill down on the credentials of the folks helping people most people file for the i.t.c. and what the problem is here and what we should do about it. it is a lot of money as i recall. mr. married: the unearned income tax program was passed by president reagan. last year actually 26 million american families benefited from that program. i think it is a program that over the decades has proven its value. i think you touched on and ms. davis touched on it too. it is a program that has a high

degree of complexity in that it is really based on claiming dependent children at a certain income level. and with separations with divorces establishing the custodial parent, making that determination and also verifying the income when you're making the credit adds to the complexity of that program. but i think you touched on an area that the administration has been asking for help of the congress over the last couple of years and that is the fact that over, well over 50% of these 26 million eitc payments are actually done by third party providers who are not c.p.a.'s or enrolled agents or not individual whors authorized to actually represent you or i in front of the internal revenue service, they are just

preparers. having dealt with this issue for a number of years at the i.r.s., i'm sort of struck by the fact that as a society, we seem to register, regulate and license electricians, plum rs and healthcare workers yet we don't want to regulate individuals who actually have a partnership with the i.r.s. in administering tax administration and this important credit in a very fairway, fair to the taxpayers and fair to the government. i think in the president's budget he once again asks for a series of initiatives, whether it be resources or some assistance in regulating and licensing these preparers. senator carper: i think it starts on pages two and three. examples of proposals that are in the 2006 budget include and you gave us five or six good ideas. i call it a to-do list.

let me just ask each of you, you heard this other testimony. you heard the testimony of the opening witness. give us one thing -- if you do nothing else, committee, senate, do this. mr. bretoni: annual reports, less than 1% are corrected. that gives me a real concern this is being brushed off in some ways. we know there are some issues. we know there are problems. it is easy to say that when you're not looking at large blocks of cases. if you're not verifying reports from family members or from funeral directors or folks who are nonbeneficiaries and lastly you're not verifying reports

where some piece of the data doesn't match a record, that is a significant amount of nonmatches that you might have to correct down the road had you done those verifications and to -- the reports you can't fix 6.5 million reports if you don't know about it. we really have to look at the integrity of the data, cleanette up, whether it is looking -- a look back or per spktive. there is a lot of noise in this file that needs to be taken care of before it is -- it is an integrity tool. senator carper: thank you. senator lankford: this has been an ongoing issue for a while. we have talked about social security. i know this committee has dealt with it. i have dealt with it for quite a while. i have letter still outstanding

with s.s.a. dealing with just getting a full record, a medical record that has to be submitted. i'm not going to bring that up today. that is a letter that is outstanding. we know that is coming. still watching for that and anticipating that to be able to come soon. so i'm not going to ask you a question directly. i wanted to tell you we're still waiting. is social security administration the right place to be able to manage the death master file? it seems like that has sort of grown up organically. is that the right spot according to o.n.b. or is there a better place? mr. mader: i think my two colleagues have tested, they are receives the information directly from families and funeral homes and from states. i think what we have is a

process and a system that needs to be expanded as boast gentlemen testified. we don't have every state that has access and is using the electronic system which clearly improves the quality of data. i think there are a lot of the fixes that we talked about today need to be put in place. senator lankford: fixable mr. mader: yes, sir. senator lankford: many are looking to the social security administration to get that information. mr. bertoni: it has grown invaluable over time. now those records are being used for purposes where they were not

collected decades ago. a date of death from several decades ago, nobody enindividualed in this day and age that it would be available electronically to pulte parties. senator lankford: is that something the agency sells? mr. brune: we provide that. we are reimbursed for our cost to generate the file. senator lankford: what about the private eptities? brune: the state charges us. senator lankford: you get the death information, do they charge for that information? mr. brune: we pay the states.

senator lankford: how much? mr. bruin: today that is $3.09 per record. it comes to us preverified. the state has run the name and number against our record and confirmed that it is a match. we get it more timely. senator lankford: give me an proximate cost, $3 a record. mr. brune: those that send the information, it is under a dollar reimbursed. senator lankford: what does the s.s.a. do? is it $2 cost? mr. brune: it is an unverified report.

senator lankford: is there a public and and internal? i'm trying to figure out to process here. we're paying to get the records and selling those to commerce who has been selling it to agencies and other individuals to recoup the costs here. once we go through the verification how much does it cost to verify someone that is a nonverified name coming from a state? mr. brune: it is not -- senator lankford: is there an average cost? mr. brune: we usually have one of our technicians confirm the death with a family member. senator lankford: an issued report found 18,000 individual who is died while receiving payments, they were verified in

more than 90 voter registrations in that group that were already dead. help me understand this process. as you see at the point, we have verified records from states. s.s.a. is verifying them coming in. we have 6.5 million that are over 112 years old. 180,000 individuals that you found that are already dead. mr. brune: senator, that is our bigs concern on this thing. we take a look at anybody over 112 years of age. when we did our audit on it there was 13 people in the united states. we figured there was 135 people in the whole world. all of those numbers that are out there, if somebody takes those numbers, they can start misusing them. that is where our biggest concern on it is is that they will end up using -- our concerns on it is that when

those individuals -- somebody can impersonate the right person, they can vote. senator lankford: are these names that have never been submitted by states? mr. o'carroll: most of the 112 are from years ago back in the 1970's. senator lankford: what about those on disability. mr. o'carroll: we're finding those listed as deceased and getting benefits on it. what we're finding on that, the death, the record that we're talking about today, the one that is used for the death master file, the other file on it or the master benefit or registration file on it will list it. when somebody calls in and says there is a deceased person to immediately stop the benefits from going out s.s.a. puts it on the payment record and stops

it. sean can probably described a little bit better. it gets confusing when you're talking automobile accident illries and things like that. it goes over another list as being deceased. that is where the big issue is. senator lankford: opening bank accounts voting. all the things you found when they went through this process on false security numbers. they are finding they are people who have died and their numbers are still being used? mr. o'carroll: correct. they might try to get social security benefits. senator peters: thank you for your testimony. after listening to ms. rivers, we raised a lot of issues today. ms. rivers, after she testified this is not an unusual situation i have run against, given the

fact that we had a marine veteran recently that was highlighted in the media for his trials and tribulations in that he was improperly listed as being deceased a couple of times to the point of losing his veterans benefits and his credit score was ruined as well when he was trying to purchase a house and it took him several months to get through that process. this is an anguishing issue for many folks. you mentioned mr. brune about 9,000 individuals every year you believe where in this situation? mr. brune: correct. senator parties: of those 9,000, what is the event triggering them get on that list? mr. brune: one would be a data entry error and the second errors in information by the reporter whoever that reporter might be. the individual who reports death. we get reports from family

members, from doctors and also from the postal service. we get reports from the treasury and c.m.s. as well. senator peters: so a report from the postal service? you're having someone say someone didn't get their mail? mr. brune: correct. we would verify that. we would possibly suspend benefits but not terminate the benefits. senator peters: how long does it take? mr. brune: the process is for the individual who is on the death master incorrectly to visit one of our offices and provide evidence of their identity. we can do that through a scheduled appointment so the individual does not have to wait and usually it takes an hour to complete. senator peters: but the problem

is even if that is done, the information is not communicated to others that may want this information, which i think ms. rivers was in that trouble. is there a way to do that? otherwise we're relying on them to go back and constantly check this list. the individual often doesn't know they are on this list as well. they are just having a situation where things are not going well and there is seemingly no explanation for it and yet there are there is no action on the social security administration saying we need to fix this mistake and we know this individual is going to be doing through an awful lot of heartache. mr. brune: it would be identified as no not being on the death master file shared with the department of commerce. you asked about the commercial

entities. we believe there would be value in sharing the full death file as a ranking member of the chairman are proposing in their legislation with the do not pay portal. senator peters: 6.5 million people at 112 years old. mr. o'carroll in your testimony you said they are not receiving social security payments. they just still have a valid social security number out there. there is no data as to date of death. at some point they probably received social security checks and stopped getting it. why does that not trigger it. if not picking up the mail is enough to get you on the list, if they stopped self receiving social security checks we can assume they are no longer alive.

mr. o'carroll: back in the 1970's, someone would come into an s.s.a. office and a family member or widow or children or dependents like that, that is where a lot of these records were created. so the person didn't have the benefit from s.s.a., wasn't a record with s.s.a.. that is pretty much the crux of a lot of these things. they are old records with little in the way of s.s.a. having the ability to catch it. senator peters: is that why it is the 112-year -- what is the situation with 105-year-old individuals and 110? is there something about 112? mr. o'carroll: we had gotten word that the two accounts were set up which is in my testimony. at that point, we took a look -- our auditors looked and figured out what was the highest age of record and that's where we came

up with 112. there was 35 people in world that are 112. senator peters: do you see these same numbers with someone that is 105? mr. o'carroll: when someone reached 100 years of age they would reach out to try to verify that the person was there. we were getting fairly good information on that. probably saving about $8 million a year by doing that method on it. then we decided, i mentioned in my testimony is it made more sense to start taking a look at someone who is not using medicare for long periods of time in that age group. we have two things going. the age and the fact that they were seeing a doctor. we were getting better results than just using the age limit on it. yes, everybody is aware of that. we keep taking a look. we have different projects and

we worked with s.s.a. as an example, 90-year-olds. senator peters: what is a cut off from medicare? how long without benefits? mr. o'carroll: we have been using three years on that one. that seems fairly good. it has been so successful looking at medicare, doing an audit taking a look now to see medicaid and see if we can get more additional screening of people that way. senator peters: great, thank you so much. senator mccaskill: last year during a hearing on this subject, i learned that we were selling these lists to other government agencies which is kind of hard for me to wrap my arms around that policy. i think we were told that this was required by law. is that correct? >> that is correct senators.

we're required to secretary reimbursement for our costs. senator mccaskill: would you see any reason we couldn't put up a secure website up that is encrypted and pass coded that we share this information? we have hundreds of millions of dollars going out the door at other issues and they are trying to budget paying you for information. all of this is being gathered in the public domain. it seems bizarre to me that we are not focusing on a priority of a policy that would make this information available to others easily and as little expense as possible since the taxpayers are paying the bill, no matter where this is occurring. >> we would agree. our testimony, the goal of the ranking members bill also in the president's fiscal year 2016 budget to make the full death

file available. over 100 million records to all federal agencies for all federal payments. senator mccaskill: it would be great if we could get that done. are they to your knowledge, maybe they would know? are these other agencies then