discusses the future of fraternities. and at 9:20 a.m., a roundtable discussion on union membership in the u.s. with michael horrigan host: the senate has finished its work before a two-week break. they passed a budget. a the next step is reconciliation. it's been a busy week. ted cruz announced for president. there is a lot of unrest in the middle east. budgets were passed i the house and senate. those are some of the news stories we will be talking about this morning.

if there are others you would like to ring up, these are the numbers. you can make comments the social media. you can send us an e-mail. from "the wall street journal" website, the senate clears the budget plan. there is a budget plan to the senate. they will reduce spending and dismantle president obama's health care law. working into the predawn hours they approved the blueprint by a party line vote. this follows the measure the

house passed on wednesday. this is mostly cutting health care and other benefit programs and not raising taxes. ted cruz and rand paul for the two republicans voting against it. part of that budget, senators back benefits for same-sex couples. they approved an amendment that would give married same-sex couples access to social security and veterans affairs benefits. 11 republican senators voted with democrats in support of the amendment, including berger, johnson,. they are of war reelection in

2016. thom tillis also voted for the amendment. this is also from "the hill" this morning. the senate will vote -- wait to vote on the medicare deal. it passed the house on thursday. mitch mcconnell said senators will move to it very quickly. the deadline for the current patch is march 31 grade he says that the centers for medicare and medicaid services said they could handle a two-week gap. john boehner spoke about what the house did with the fix yesterday. >> let me say a big thank you to the chairman. there was a lot of work that went into this product. i want to thank the staff of mr.

boyer and miss pelosi. they worked together to create this product that we have today. thanks to their hard work, we expect to end the doc fix once and for all. host: if you want to talk about some of the top issues, iran may run centrifuges at fortified sites. the u.s. is considering let them run hundreds of centrifuges at a once secret bunker in exchange

for limits on working resorts and development at other sites. the trade-off would allow iran to run several hundred of the devices and its facility. they would not be allowed to do work that could lead to an atomic bomb and the site would be subject to international inspections according to western officials. this just broke around 5:30 a.m. this morning. travel schedule suggests the iran deal to be staged on sunday. john kerry and the iranian foreign ministry have travel

plans that look like they will all be in switzerland on sunday. watch out for that as well. now to your calls. we talked about some of the issues of the week. this is james. caller: good morning. i would like to comment on senator cruz running for office. he made his announcement the other day and said that obamacare was the worst thing in the world. if it's so bad, why did he sign up for it? she took a leave of absence. if it's so bad, you would not want it. you say that it hurts the people and then you do the same thing. which is the truth?

if it's good or is it bad? host: ted cruz announced that liberty university this week. this is his announcement. >> god's blessing has been on america. i believe god isn't done with america yet. i believe in you. i believe in the power of conservatives rising up to reignite the promise of america. that is why today i am announcing that i'm running for president of the united states.

host: liberty university is in virginia about three hours southwest of washington. joy, what's on your mind? caller: i want to go further on ted cruz. i am laughing at all of these republicans that called in last week wanting to help him become president. he shut the government down. they have had 50 or 60 votes on repealing obamacare. he said he was going to run for president, but the first thing that came out of his mouth was he would repeal every letter of obamacare. tuesday he said he is going to join. i am surprised that you did not have a segment on that.

you talked about president obama wearing a beige suit. if obama had done a flip-flop like this, people would still be talking about it. this man is encouraging millions of people to go against obamacare when at the same time he knew tuesday the next day. you don't have to sign up for it. they have plenty of money. this is the kind of president you would have. what he wants for himself. host: we've got joy in chicago. we have another democrat in texas. caller: how are you? i am in texas and i watched the elections. i am not for ted cruz. there is an issue that he needs to address.

what i want to know is we've heard that the amount of money we oh china. -- owe china. when will they ever address the social security trust fund? host: i am not going to respond. does that worry you? caller: ted cruz said that god is not through with america. i said to myself, of course not as long as politicians keep lying, god is going to stay in the game. host: that was randall in texas. creator syndicate has dropped ben carson's column. they've decided it will stop

carrying it. the decision follows his column this week. he discussed how a doctor's facts waste expertise can augment a president's leadership abilities. john is calling from florida on the republican line.

what is the issue that caught your eye this week? caller: when these democrats scream about us republicans and tell us how bad we are when obama gets his communist rule in like he is trying to do and he tells all these peoples welfare we will see what they think of them then it. host: the and dependent line you are on "washington journal here co --." guest:caller: yesterday eight congresswoman from california was saying the detainees in guantanamo. she voted against the war. she was spitting out nonsense saying they had to hold these

people because they were terrorists but they could not convict them because when they get evidence,. that's nonsense. nobody called her out on that. that was straight nonsense. the senate just passed a budget. it's ridiculous i don't see how the people in america -- forget republican or democrat. if there are no tax cuts, we are being taxed. big companies are not being taxed. for people to sit here and say this is going to benefit them, you really are delusional. i hope people wake up.

it's crazy. it's so unfortunate because people are going to go to hell in a handbasket. thank you for taking my call. host: that was loretta sanchez who was on yesterday. she is the sister of linda sanchez. ,, good morning. caller: i find something ironic about this nuclear weapons talk with iran with israel criticizing the deal. who is signing on her for asian treaties? israel has not signed it. israel is the last nation. i think it's amazing this two-faced concern about someone

else's nuclear weapons when you have them yourself. you have not signed the two biggest keystones of u.s. foreign-policy. it seems iran is our friend because they at least signed those treaties and allow international inspections. who is the bad guy? host: up next is rick in florida. what do you want to talk about this morning? caller: good morning. i just want to talk about ted cruz. it seems to me that he doesn't want to be president of the united states. he wants to end up like jim dement and wind up in a cushy job where he is to say anything he wants and control things.

he is a big blowhard. he says things to be blustery, to get attention and put his name at the top of the list. he knows that in the end, people are not going to vote for somebody who is as extreme as sam. host: this is from the front page of the washington post." the saudi's are weighing the use of ground forces.

front page of "the financial times." the price of oil rose yesterday.

tina is calling in from the mississippi. caller: thank you for taking my call.

i would just like to say that i love your show and i have been watching it for years. i would like to make a suggestion. why do you take the phone calls in consecutive order? that way people would not have the feeling that your show is biased. another thing i would like to suggest is it would be great if c-span could offer a history lesson, show the democrats how the government works. i don't believe most people who watch this show even realize that we have three branches of government. it does seem like that obama does have a dictator. why republicans respond as they

do, i think that would be so helpful. host: where is carrier, mississippi? caller: near the gulf coast. host: what do you do down there? caller: i work in the medical field. host: thanks for calling in. wes is in north carolina. caller: hello. thank you very much for taking my call. i appreciate the call from mississippi. there are three branches of government and that is a good idea. a lot of people in america do not realize the most important thing we have is our government.

i think the middle east is going to be most affected eye isis. dad isis. they should be the one who will be most affected so they should take the lead on that. if americans go over there, they will hate us for that. i think saudi arabia is doing good. we've got enough war over there. we've had enough american boots on the ground. they need to take care of their own business. the gentleman about the israel nuclear missiles, they want to meddle with another country. they have not signed the non-proliferation agreement.

they should. thanks very much. i think we should go to one transactional tax. that would be fair and remove credit and debit and just have a transactional tax. thank you very much for listening to me. host: that was wes in north carolina. from oh" -- "usa today."

the afghan president was in town this week. he met with president obama. president obama spoke as well. >> you can't minimize the sacrifices that our military families make. some people will be rotating back into afghanistan relative to what would have been the case. we are moving the drawdown case. this is to compensate for the lengthy. it took for government or mission.

we want to make sure we are doing everything we can to help afghan security forces succeeded so we don't have to go back. we don't want to respond in an emergency because terrorist activity is launched in afghanistan. we are on the path to do that and it was my assessment that it made sense for us to provide a few extra months for us to be able to help things like logistics, making sure the equipment is not just in place used properly. the training and advising and input that has been provided continues through this fighting season so that the president karzai can do a serious review.

host: randy is in georgia. what's on your mind this morning? caller: i don't watch c-span during much. i noticed that every morning it's the same thing. what's on your mind this morning? caller:it's three democrats, to independence and one republican and the republican doesn't really have a republican views. instead of watching c-span i just listen to bill bennett who is much better. i didn't think i can see anything worse than the carter administration. do those guys research anything? host: up next is san antonio on the end dependent line.

caller: thank you. i was disappointed with meet the press about the state of illinois being the most corrupt state. i was born and raised in illinois. i am upset they are always giving us the negative publicity about illinois. i am upset about that. i could not believe they would put that on national television. there are millions of great farmers in state workers in illinois. we are well-educated. look at the production. i was very upset and i don't believe that anyone should say that the state is a product of

corrupt chicago. host: that is renee in san antonio. obamas mideast vacuum. this is the intro and the conclusion in this editorial.

allen is in georgia. good morning. caller: i wanted to respond to the collars that referred to ted cruz as a hypocrite. he is compliant with the individual mandate.

that is like calling somebody a hypocrite for paying their income tax while some orting the fair tax. host: caller: good morning. listening to the lady from mississippi talk about the three branches of government, they are coequal. they all have individual powers. either branch can do something and the other branches can stop them or if they don't have the votes, they can't. whatever the president does can be overridden by congress if they so choose. if they don't, then it stands as law. i know they taught her that because i graduated high school in mississippi. the other thing that she said is

about taking calls in order they don't know the strata of your calls. what would you do? if you have 50 republicans and 150 democrats, are you going to let them wait? people should think before they make choices. host: what do you do in ft. walton beach? caller: i am retired navy. i worked at a state college for 15 years. host: thank you. catherine is in new hampshire. good morning. caller: good morning. i have an idea. the middle east is a mess with all of the destruction. my died the a -- idea some

people would say is impossible. it could be very possible. it would lead to israel being safe and secure. the palestinians would have a state. if the state would come about it would only come about if the state was a palestinian state. it would be of the world's major religions. there would be centers of major religions created in palestine with the purpose of working together for understanding one another and working for a better world and working together for growth in their own religion.

they would sign an accord of peace and nonviolence. religious leaders and historians and even tourists could come to these centers. it could be very exciting and positive area thank you. host: randy is in wisconsin. he is a republican. what you think of your governor? caller: i think he's right on. host: do you want him to run for president? caller: he would be great for the country. we would not want to lose him here. the reason we want iran to get this nuclear bomb, there are many countries that have the

nuclear bomb. they note, and say we are going to annihilate israel off the map. that is one reason why you don't want them to get the bomb. why would anybody release five taliban commanders under secrecy for one muslim if you weren't a muslim? host: that is randy in wisconsin. scott walker told a private dinner this month but he backed the idea of allowing undocumented immigrants to stay in the country and become eligible for citizenship.

next up is new jersey. billy, here is "the new york times" this morning. have you been following the story? caller: i hope he just goes away. i wanted to talk about senator

cruz. his wife, she is ceo or vice president of goldman sachs. you know where he is coming from. they have no constitution. i do know how our country can be friends with people when they have no constitution for their own citizens. at the same time, israel has no extradition with other countries. they can cause havoc in whatever country they go to. you can go back to israel and not be charged with anything. their citizens, i don't see how

we can be friends. they don't have a constitution and they don't represent us. they should have one. host: this is christian, an independent in nashville. our you with us? caller: i'm here. i was calling about the situation with isis. i'm confused. i know that when israel was formed, several nations came against it. they have been opposed to israel. when you have a force like isis that is destroying and obliterating people all over the middle east, i don't understand why they can't unite against them.

i find it hard to understand but they can all unite against israel. host: what are you studying? caller: i am studying history at east tennessee state university. i want to get my phd and become a professor. host: thank you. "the new york times" says the president will host pope francis as part of the first trip to america. the topics to discussed include schedules for september 23.

that is september 23, when the pope is coming to the white house and tony is calling from new jersey. caller: i like the way you present a balanced view of the news you seem to quote "the new york times" and "the washington post" more than everybody else. they represent the upper east side and the beltway. that may be the majority of the country. i wish you would do more varied editorial pages. host: what would you like to see us use? caller: there are good papers all over the country.

the press in pennsylvania is very good. they have good papers out in san francisco. they have good papers in new orleans. i wish you would take more of a view. those papers have a very focused view of the world. i do think it represents the country. host: i appreciate that. what do you do? caller: i'm retired. i worked for 35 years. i worked in oil and the cable industry. host: thanks for calling in and thank you for bringing that up. that's a very valid point. billy is an independent in miami. caller: as a gay person, my question and i'm glad you have open phones, when you see why

hasn't a reporter asked a person in the crowd what do they think about gay rights? i think they are missing the opportunity to get on another issue. my second comment is you and the guy on sunday are the classiest people. host: steve scully probably agrees with you that he is the classiest guy on the show. i'm just kidding. what you do in miami? caller: i'm retired and i worked for the electric company. host: james is in alabama. he is calling on the democrat line. caller: good morning. i am interested in knowing why

scott walker is going all over the country trying to bust unions. i worked for a union for 31 years. i don't understand why they're going to let him try to tara -- tear up unions when a union is the best thing that ever happened to a man or lady. what can be done to stop this? the unions are going to sue scott walker. host: we are going to be talking about union membership in our last i'd meant this morning. i meant to ask billy about this issue. this is from "usa today."

that is in the money section. in the sports section there is a editorial.

that is in "usa today" this morning. joshua is in washington. what is on your mind? caller: the greatest problem besides the fact that our money is fake and most of them are crooks is they are analog people in a digital world. the old-school tricks and the

campaign commercials won't work anymore. most people don't go to a phone book anymore. with more computing power, we went to the moon. ted cruz and i don't like ted cruz. he is too polished. his wife is goldman sachs. why don't they let them out? they can get out of their contract with the federal reserve. everybody can be free to do whatever they want. let them out of the union? host: dave is in florida. caller: good morning. thank you for c-span and thank

you for the service you provide. the real issue in my mind, i think the democratic party has abandoned people. the transpacific partnership is the real issue facing us all. this could dent the situation we have with income inequality. we could see medicine rise for seniors. we are seeing corporations sue the government. we could be looking at deprivation and regulation of food in medicine. we are rolling back the miniscule wall street reforms. i think this transcends whether you are a democrat or republican. i think the division that our leaders play to the divisive

issues, i think we all have issues that face us. it's time to unify. i could go on. some of the issues are not undocumented issues and abortion. the hostile corporate takeover is sweeping the country. i will wait for a comment. i appreciate c-span. caller:host: we will move on to gary in texas. caller: i wanted to call about ted cruz. i've been having the same feelings about this. every buddy labels him tea party. i think c-span has got the right format for the news.

i'm tired of looking at the other news stations and hearing about the genealogy of the hosts and their vacations. this is where the president gets his information we need to bet -- do a better job. host: "the new york times" is reporting that harry reid won't seek reelection. there it is. this is brand-new information that just came out. sam is in mississippi. sam, you are on the air on "washington journal." caller: i am glad to hear that about harry reid. my problem that i don't understand with this administration is that they are dealing with a country that has

been well-known for their support of terrorism. it just seems like everybody is turning against israel. i stand 100% behind israel. this administration is just completely out of whack. it seems like people call in supporting this president and his administration no matter what they do. i completely don't understand that. it is completely against us and israel. i just wish we could get some people in office.

host: what do you do in mississippi? caller: i'm a salesman. host: what kind of sales? caller: i refer not to say that. host: thank you. the lead editorial in "the new york times."

that is the editorial this morning. a lot of celebrities come in and out of washington for various reasons. some testify before congress. ben affleck was one of them. >> back then, there was a lot of activity around sudan and i got asked to be part of that. i started doing a lot of reading and studying and meeting with people. i was shocked to see the degree to which wars in central africa

were dwarfing what was going on in sudan. not to diminish that, obviously. if that was as big a tragedy as was being described, that was someplace i should get involved. we started traveling there and we went around the congo. we started thinking about the assumption that i must be able to help. what can i do? what can be done. we decided we wanted to help foster community groups that could not get money from the united states and could not get the capacity building because they were too small. we wanted to be nimble. there was no turning back. you see people suffering and fighting. i thought i would find people

towering and on the ground. you find people trying to get jobs and taking care of their families in the midst of that. life flourishes and people try and people exhibit compassion and kindness. i was so moved by that. i thought this is the place i belong. host: you are on the air. what is on your mind this morning? caller: good morning. how are you doing this morning? good. i watch c-span yesterday and i have been watching it and i enjoy it and it's very informative. i felt sad for bernie sanders. he did a good job. i felt sorry for the guy.

i think people like cam -- him have the heartbeat of america and has a concern for the american people. he is looking out for the poor the sick, the elderly. i really appreciate what he is done. it is very sad that the republicans don't take into consideration. they don't live in the real world. what is really going on in this country, it's sad. i know everybody is trying to do the best they can. we have a lot of people in this country who are suffering. i just think we need more people like bernie sanders, elizabeth moran to stand up -- warren to

stand up and fight for the american people. they talk about flat tax. there should be some sort of cap when it comes to campaign contributions. everybody gets the same amount. it's annoying when somebody is running for office and you get all of these different politicians on with everything they're going to do. some of them are carpetbaggers and habits set foot in a tickler state. it's sad. when they get in and they turn everything upside down. that should be one good thing that they should do. i think the president is doing a good job. i am very pleased with him. i feel sorry for him.

he is up against the lot. there is a lot going on in the country and it's going to take a lot to change it. there is hope. host: this is michelle in minneapolis. caller: good morning. thank you for having me on. i called with one thing on my mind but after listening to 10 people speak, i've got a number of things. i did want to say since you have open phones is for years i thought wouldn't it be nice if they just had it both republicans and democrats at one time debating subjects. i love watching c-span. when you have a republican on and then you have the democrat, they just put their talking points out there. on the weekends sometimes you

have a republican and a democrat debating. i think it's much better. you just get people with their talking points. i don't think that's i don't think it really helps. if you put a segment out there and just had both of them debating a subject. i think that would be better. you made my day when you announce that harry reid was retiring. i go to the polls voting against harry reid. host: what do you do in minneapolis? caller: i am from minnesota originally.

i was raised on a little farm. it's about 60 miles northeast of minneapolis. host: what you do in minneapolis? caller: i am a project coordinator. i have lived in four different states. i decided to come back for family reasons 15 years ago. i love minnesota except for the winter. host: scott is on the independent mine in maine. caller: good morning. i was watching ben affleck on c-span the other day. it was slow.

it wasn't an exciting show. they were over there asking for billions of dollars for other countries. they won't even fix the roads in this country. we are giving all of that money to them people over there. that is not why i called. i just wanted to mention that i did watch that. i was wondering if you happened to notice between your colors that call-in the bickering and the anger and the almost insanity that goes on between republicans and democrats and sometimes the independents. do you ever get tired of listening to it? it just goes on and on and on it. guest: why do you think that is?

caller: i think we have a media that divides. it divides the people. rush limbaugh, glenn beck, tom hartman, there are not a lot of stations out there. they just slam obama. they slam everything he does. every day, 24 hours a day. people don't get the real news. all they get is opinion. they don't get the truth.

republicans slam obamacare but they don't tell you what they would replace it with. are they going to replace it with what they had with insurance companies throwing you off for no reason at all? they can jack your rates up? host: scott in canaan, made. that is who we were listening to. two more calls we will take in the segment and a couple of articles or it financial times nigeria set stocks of war on boko haram. a cast representing -- is starring in nigeria's offensive against boko haram's terrorists.

according to fellow contractors and former colleagues. roughly 300 aging, former south african defense for soldiers, many of them from the disbanded mercenary outfit, i been supporting an attempt by nigerian government forces to reclaim territory captured by the terrorist group, ahead of saturday's presidential elections. this is a news alert out of associated press, nigerian military says that they have destroyed boko haram headquarters, killing several extremists. paul is and can apple's, north carolina, democrat. paul, you are on the "washington journal. caller: maybe you can answer this question. ted cruz, was he born in canada or was he born in the united states? host: he was physically born in canada. caller: i thought we had a rule

or something that if you were born in another country you could not run for president of the united states. one other quick thing, all these people calling in about harry reid retiring. i think mcconnell from west virginia, they ought to get rid of him and john boehner. that is just my opinion. thank you, sir, for your time. host: finally pam, republican in madison, wisconsin. you have the last word in this first segment. it helps to push the button. i am sorry. now start. caller: you read two little editorials or comments about the religious freedom restoration act and how people are so against what happened in indiana. people need to be educated that

though clinton signed the federal religious freedom restoration act in 1993. 19 states now have that separate and apart from the federal law that will clinton signed. 10 states have religious liberty protections because of court decisions. so what indiana has done is no different than what the federal government did under bill clinton. so people need to educate themselves about what this is all about and not just running off and saying, oh my gosh, how awful is indiana. we need to educate people and part of your job, i believe, is to educate people and instead of doing that, you read these two little blurbs which totally skews what is happening. instead of telling people the

truth, and that is very, very frustrating. thank you. host: that is pam in madison wisconsin. three segments coming up. we will be talking about a couple of supreme court cases dealing with the environment and costs. after that, we will be looking at the front cover story of the national review. it is about the fraternity system and finally, we will be looking at unions and union membership here in the united states. this is the "washington journal" and one more thing that happened this week was that representative aaron schock, republican of illinois, resigned from congress cousin some of the issues he is facing. here's a little bit of his resigned mid speech. >> i am proud of the good work that my team has delivered to the tens of thousands of constituents who have turned to

our office for their time and need. my staff delivered for me because they delivered for you every day 24/seven. i was never more excited than the day i walked into this chamber six years ago. i leave here with sadness and humility. for those whom i have let down i will work tirelessly to make it up to you. i know that god has a plan for my life. the good book tells us that before i formed you in the womb, i knew you. i also know that every person faces adversity in life. abraham lincoln held the seat in congress for one term but feel faced as many defeats in his personal business and public life as he did. his continual perseverance in the face of these trials, never giving up, is something all of us americans should be inspired by, especially when going through a valiant life.

i believe that through life's struggles, we learn from our mistakes and we learn more about ourselves. i know that this is not the end of the story, but rather the beginning of a new chapter thank you for the honor to serve. i look forward to keeping in touch with my friends in this chamber and my friends across the 18th district. may god continue to bless this awesome institution and important role that it plays for america and the rest of the world. with that, a yield back the balance of my time. >> "washington journal" continues. host: joining us is jeremy jacobs with a group called greenwire. guest: greenwire is part of being a publishing. our newsreaders are from federal

agencies, everywhere from the sierra cup -- club to exxon mobil. host: what is it that differentiates you from some of the other publications? guest: we are highly specialized. we cover everything for the environment and energy, either in the courts, which is what i cover, or the department of the interior and department of energy. we are hyper focused on those things. host: this week, there was a supreme court hearing, she can versus -- michigan versus epa. guest: it is a consolidation of three cases, one being brought by michigan and 20 other states, challenging a 2011 role that the epa finalized. it was the heart of its air program to regulate emissions of toxic pollutants like mercury,

cadmium, lead, arsenic from coal fire plants. to make that rule, the epa first had to determine that it was "appropriate and necessary" based on what the eps said was health risks. the states and other utility groups challenge that, saying that the epa in that initial determination, we for setting the standard should have considered costs. these are very expensive rollouts. $9.6 billion is with the epa said this would cost. so the challengers content that "appropriate necessary" should have included cost. host: the epa rules, with a based on a congressionally passed law? guest: that's right. a king street out of the clean air act. when it was amended in 1990, in

order to get at these pollutants that so far have not been regulated, congress directed epa to do a "utility study." to study the health effects of what come out of coal-fired powerplants, and determine if those pollutants were still on the rise and still posed a health risk. then they should go ahead and issue standards for them, which is what the epa did in obama cost administration. host: "appropriate necessary," are those words in the law? guest: they are. host: who interprets that? guest: it is a very vague term. the law does not say, just consider health effects great it does not say consider help effects and costs. it is silent on that. the case hinges on whether epa permissibly interpreted appropriate and necessary to just focus on health effects.

where is the challenger say cost should have been part of that. host: jeremy jacobs, who calculates these costs or the benefits of such a loss? guest: that is also an issue in this case. the epa, when it did its cost analysis that it would cost 9.6 billion, and suggested that the benefits of this rule will be between 30 billion and 90 billion. on that scale, the benefits clearly outweigh the costs. the challenger say that if the epa got by that by counting co-benefits, not mercury and not these other pollutants, if you are only counting knows, the benefits are only 4 million to 6 million versus 9 billion. that skews the cost analysis quite a bit. host: 202 is the area code if you would like to talk about

this particular case, or the obama administration's environmental issues. go ahead and dial in. we will begin taking those calls right away. is this case about president obama's environmental policy? guest: in a lot of ways it is. this is the third time in a year the supreme court has reviewed a major clean air act regulation of the obama administration's issue. his epa has done very well. it won a case on an air pollution program for pollution that crosses state lines. one that last year 6-2. and initial greenhouse gas regulations. this program, called the mercury -- the pollution controls that are installed because of it help the obama's epa and a lot of

other ways, too eared a lot of other companies it wants to implement a benefit from these controls, should this regulation be upheld. host: what was the reaction from the justices? guest: very hard to say. it is safe to say, it was probably -- pretty fairly split. you have the four conservative justices all had very large misgivings about whether epa should have considered cost. scalia at one point called it an outrageously expensive law and the chief justice several times said that there are red flags and asked whether epa has unusually tied its hands by not considering costs. the local justices really leapt to epa's defense, saying that when the law is silent, what you

have to consider in this appropriate and necessary determination, deference goes to epa's interpretation. host: this is from the washington post on this case. supreme court appears split on toxic emissions plan, is the headline. states and industries opposing the regulations say that the annual cost of compliance under the rule would be $9.6 billion but that the benefits of reduced emissions of hazardous air pollutants are only $4 billion to $6 billion. the epa and environmental groups estimate the savings to be much more, from $37 billion up. how are those been calculated? guest: it is 4 million to 6 million, they say, not billion. host: it says "billion" here. guest: the difference -- and

this is kind of complicated cash when the epa does its cost benefit analysis, they were including these co-benefits of reducing other pollutants like set, like small particles. those are not the namesake pollutants of this rule, where is the namesake pollutants cadmium, lead, that is where industry comes up with the $4 million to $6 million number. epa would also counter that reducing mercury emissions which are as we know a potent neurotoxin, it is very hard to quantify the health benefits of that other than to just say things are better with it not being in the air. it is hard to numerically

quantify exactly how much benefit there is. host: is this all about coal? guest: this is all about coal. these are coal-fired power -- power plants should a lot of the coal power industry is already complying with this regulation. it is due to come into effect next month, is when compliance is supposed to begin. almost two thirds of the coal industry is already complying. it is only about 20% that has yet to make up its mind about how they will comply. host: jeremy jacobs, legal reporter with greenwire. jay, you are on the air raid caller: good morning. i am very proenvironment but at the same time, we have to realize that just lie us breathing, we change our environment. this rush to shut down, even

bankrupt coal in many places is just, it leaves my headshaking. here in ohio, we are in the process where have our ready shutdown a number of coal-fired plants. i look at the scenario. we also have two old-style nuclear power plants which at some point in the near future they will be shut down just because of their age. i am curious, where do we go with this? because at some point, someone will turn on an air conditioner and we will have the great lakes blackout all over again. any ideas where we are going? obviously, the renewable energy is not going to service us anytime soon, at least in this country. host: j, thank you very much.

guest: i think those concerns are real. epa would say that there is no real risk of any blackout happening because of this mercury rule in the near future. as i mentioned earlier, the fact that two thirds of the country including a lot of ohio is already complying, would indicate -- and the blackouts have not occurred yet -- would indicate they will not have two devastating of an effect. one way that this is being addressed is the switch to national gas -- natural gas switching coal-fired plants to burning national gas -- natural gas, which is a cleaner imaging fuel. that seems to be accomplishing a lot of what the epa is seeking to accomplish. host: kayla, oakland, new york. democrats line eared caller: good morning.

my comment is not specifically on -- host: turn down your tv and listen to your telephone. caller: is this ok now? host: please go ahead. caller: my comment is not specifically on the rules on coal but more on the rules that the epa should be allowed to promulgate on global warming concerning co2 emissions because i am scared to death of it. if you follow the science, it is really frightening, the depth of the ocean, all sorts of stuff like that i literally get so scared i cannot look at the reports because they are frightening. i we take control of these emissions, i feel we are in big trouble. guest: i think that there are

many people that share your concern about climate change. the obama administration has proposed for the first time standards limiting carbon dioxide, greenhouse gas emissions from the power sector. those were proposed last summer. they are supposed to be finalized this year. they will cut greenhouse gas emissions significantly from 2005 levels. notably, those have already been challenged in federal court, and they will be argued next month. it is unusual for a rule to be challenged before it is finalized, but it will be interesting to see how that plays out. host: tony is calling in from north conway, new hampshire, republican line. we are talking about the environment, the obama administration, and supreme

court cases. caller: if we are really concerned about carbon emissions, what they should be focusing on our developing nations like china and india. they are putting out these massive amounts of pollution based off of old, antiquated technologies that we could really update by putting on tariffs for their pollution and opening up patents to them so that they could have greener technologies. that is stuff we can do today. china puts out roughly 25% of the world's carbon emissions and that is something we can immediately lower with the technologies that we have. guest: yes, i think that is a good point and shortly after the midterm elections, you did see the white house and the president making some international deals or agreements to address climate

change. fundamentally, the rules that i just mentioned, the ones that are proposed to deal with greenhouse gases from power plants, those are sort of a linchpin to those negotiations because they show that the united states is taking this seriously and the united states is doing something. that is a big part of our negotiations with countries like india and like china, in order to force them to do more. host: is this a republican versus democrat issue? guest: on the hill, it sort of is especially in -- we are coming out of an economic downturn. this $9.6 billion number as the cost of these mercury rules something that really upsets the conservative lawmakers. and so yeah, it has been

criticized quite harshly on capitol hill. host: has the supreme court confronted a similar case when it comes to, are we weighing the costs, is that something the supreme court should be looking at? guest: it has. the epa has typically fared very well. the liberal justices, during arguments, noted -- i think ruth bader ginsburg said something to the effect of, can you think of a single case where the wall -- where the law does not instruct the epa to consider cost? we say it has to. elena kagan followed up saying, going from silence in the law to making it a requirement seems like a pretty big jump. there is a case, another clean air case around 2001, i believe that had to do with ozone standards were the court deferred to epa's decision to

consider cost. then there was a clean water act case where the court deferred to epa's decision to do a cost-benefit analysis. host: next call for jeremy jacobs comes from jim in ithaca new york, jim, you are on the "washington journal." caller: thank you so much for mr. jacobs answering my question. you hear a lot in the media about -- but the association of commissions for the environment has maintained for the past several years that driving an automobile is the worst thing that you can do for the environment. we never hear anything about that in the media. as a dedicated pedestrian, i have to say that it just seems like the air is heavily polluted so just from automobiles.

guest: i sympathize, as i would consider myself a dedicated pedestrian as well, and a bicyclist, but you are right. a lot of reason you do not hear much about car emissions is we have already done a lot, as far as cleaning up cars, car emissions. there have been several tailpipe standards, including an acceleration of them during the obama administration that was promulgated in his first term between epa and the department of transportation. they have already taken steps to start curtailing auto emissions and of course, these play out over 20 to 30 years. i think one reason is we have seen a lot of progress in that area. host: does congress still write laws that say "appropriate and necessary," thus being vague?

guest: it does. or "necessary and proper," which is in the constitution how often those come up and how vague they can be. it did come up in the argument how commonly these words are used. host: is this considered by some as an unfunded mandate ? guest: i do not believe so. i guess it sort of is because all of the cost is shepherded by industry having to make the technology improvements. but you do not hear that phrase associated with this too often. host: mike, lemoine, pennsylvania, independent. caller: i was wondering if your guest could explain to the american people that the reason there is an epa in the first place is on account of corporate

americans really bad behavior. there was a gigantic uproar to do something about things like the canal, really upset people. corporate behavior would have been better in the first place maybe the epa would not be so significant. guest: a very good point. the major environmental statutes that we have, the clean air act the clean water act, those were passed in the 1970's. they all passed with overwhelming bipartisan support. richard nixon established the epa so there has been quite a change as far as the polarizing nature of these regulations and these laws. you're absolutely right. rivers are not on fire anymore as happened in ohio.

you cannot see the pollution as much as you could but you are absolutely right, these initiatives were passed into some really terrible environmental disasters. host: a few moments left with our guest. caller: good morning. i have been in facilities in 12 countries in 10 states and two points, when his on ice cores and congressional responsibility. if you will pull at the history channel two, they are running a series on showing that the earth's temperature has gone up and down for hundreds of thousands of years. and this is really silly looking at carbon emissions. i do believe that we should be looking at pollutants and their effect on health. but here is a major, major point.

the constitution says that congress is supposed to write laws and i propose that we force all the bureaucrats in the executive branch who are writing laws to be transferred to congress and be paid by congress , supervised by congress to work out all these details. we should not write such vague laws. guest: i think you hit on something. as i mentioned, it gets at the heart of the supreme court case, and that is what to do when agencies interpret unclear or ambiguous laws. i think that there is a concern that the supreme court about that i share -- that i think shares your concern about too much regulatory power or regulatory ability to craft would save -- what some say is

law. the counter of that argument, congress has not been particularly active in a lot of areas updating laws that needed to be updated or new laws giving these agencies more guide. that leaves to the newer problems for the agencies to deal with. host: jeremy jacobs, does the obama administration -- how focused are they on an environmental legacy? guest: i think focused. i think that the president came into office saying he was going to tackle climate change issue. he immediately all must issued a first round of greenhouse gas regulations that included tailpipe standards, and has proceeded over the next three to four years to then roll out another set of rules, which are now in the process of being finalized.

i think he has moved fairly aggressively to try to submit and legacy, and a large part of that are these international talks. as our caller mentioned, there is a record that the biggest polluters are china and india. host: mary jane in tears bill ohio. mary jane. republican. caller: that was just mentioned what i was going to bring up. there was a call earlier that china has really got some outmoded factories and things. if we would put our resources into helping them there, it would be better put. right now, our president has made an agreement with the chinese that we will cut our things now even more than we have already done, and china can wait for another 30 years until they start to implement anything. it seems to me 30 years is too

long in this day and age. we could be cutting their emissions, and make a real, true difference to our world. that is all i have to say. it just seems like we should do that. guest: obviously, diplomatic relations with china are somewhat complicated. i do think there has been a recognition in the administration that you are right, that china needs to be addressed. but i think there is only so much it can do. if you follow this closely there was recently a film released in china by a journalist who was pregnant and who has been adversely affected by the pollution levels there. the film received a time of attention in the country and whether or not that will spur any sorts of changes remains to be seen. china's pollution problem is quite significant. host: jeremy jacobs, greenwire.

guest: greenwire jeremy. host: thank you for being on the "washington journal." an hour and a half left to go on this morning's show. looking at the cover story of the national review, is the party over when it comes to fraternities? is the question in title ask -- even tunnel asks. more l from this past week. bill gates was on capitol hill, testifying about the need for foreign aid. >> i ask this question of all of you. let's say there was $5 billion in their up for grabs. we spend it any way we want. any suggestions?

we have talked about this many, many times. where would you spend it? >> there is an amazing number of ngos that work on areas of agriculture, health and i'm sure they do not make a strong case for any increase that would be available. the basic health structure in africa is very weak today. as i said, that weakness means that if an epidemic shows up, we would not see it soon enough to go stop and it would spread in the global economy very, very quickly. faster than the spanish flu did in 1918. >> in fact you talked about that a couple days ago with the new york times. >> we are very much at risk unless the health and health surveillance systems in africa get improved.

the current budget lets us do that any certain rate. if there was additional dollars, we would accelerate improving that basic infrastructure and the beauty of that is that although it is an insurance policy to prevent and i could -- an epidemic, it is also, year in and year out, an amazing thing to lift people up and accelerate the climate which these -- accelerate the time at which these countries are self sufficient, able to educate their own people and provide health. health and agriculture are pretty basic things and the formula for how you get better seeds out there, you get credit out there, you build primary health care, a lot has been learned in a very businesslike way of looking at it. that is so much stronger today than 10 years ago or five years ago, that extra money could be

used very, very effectively. >> "washington journal" continues. host:ian tuttle, what are the advantages and disadvantages of the greek system? guest: that is a big question. researching this piece, i discovered that it did not lend itself to a cover piece in a magazine. it lends itself to a book or perhaps several volumes of books the disadvantages unfortunately have been, at least the potential problems have been made clear. we have seen at least does code large events that have become national news moments. the first was the now debunked

sexual assault or gang rape at the university of virginia reported in rolling stone during as we know -- as we now know, that is false. it started a discussion on college sexual assault and the relationship to fraternities. the second was the race chat from sae. fraternities seem to have fallen a foul of these two fracture lines that we have in american society, sex and race. the question of course is whether that is fatal, whether it should be fatal given the advantages of the greek system which are many. you have social capital. you have community life.

you have the enormous philanthropic work that fraternities and sororities do and we can talk more about the specifics of those things. the question is, is there a balance to be struck or has the greek system sort of outlived its usefulness? host: one of the things you bring up in your national review piece is that fraternities and sororities have become insurance conglomerates to mitigate the risk associated with eating organizations composed of 18 to 24-year-old heavy drinking males , a level of liability apparently equivalent to that of handling nuclear waste. host: that is right. this is not original to me. it comes from an excellent article by caitlin flanagan, " the dark power of fraternities in the atlantic" in march 2014 i believe. mr. flanagan spent a year

researching the greek system all across the united states and she makes this point, and i pick up on it. essentially what happens is if you look at the history of the greek system, there is a. of -- there is a period of significant contraction in the late 1960's and early 1970's, when the greek system diminishes nationwide and there are various reasons for that. in the mid to late 70's, it makes a comeback good part of that is the premiere of animal house, the famous john belushi movie, sort of proffered or propagated a new vision of fraternity life. until you see fraternities expand once again and what a lot of fraternities discovered over the course of the 1980's is that

the liability they held for personal injury was potentially ruinous. you have people falling off balconies. you have the heavy drinking. you have all sorts of potential problems that they have to face. so, what happens is fraternities that at the local level are rivals the sort of famous inter-house competition, at the national level band together and form huge insurance conglomerates. they write risk management policies, all of these sorts of things. they sort of start to group their finances together. what that helps them do with the assistance of enormous legal teams is in sure that the fraternity organizations themselves do not go under if one incident happens at some fraternity at some campus.

so this does create a tension which is that on various occasions, the behavior of individual fraternity members and the conduct of the national organizations is at odds or intention. so the national organizations are eager to distance themselves obviously, from what happens at the individual level. and they have created legal structures that enable them to do that. so in a sense fraternities, the individual fraternity that you would experience on any particular campus is in some way at a huge remove from what is essentially a corporate structure at the national level.

that is one of the ways in which fraternities have insulated themselves against the sort of incidents that we see nationwide. host: we have divided our phone lines for this segment. we will be talking about the greek system, the future of fraternities, etc. phone lines are divided just a little bit differently today so if you happen to work at a college and you are a professor or an administrator, we would like to hear your point of view, 202-748-7000 is the number to dial. if you are a college student 202-748-8001 all others, 202-748-8003.

obviously we want to hear from members and former members of fraternities as well. halfway through your piece, mr. title, we have painted -- and it is hardly fair to most fraternity members who regularly report and overwhelmingly positive experience of greek life and not just because of the easy access to alcohol. there is evidence to suggest that members of fraternities and sororities are -- burn marginally better grades than non-greek peers, they are more engaged to civic opportunities and that they are more philanthropic, etc., etc. guest: and this is significant. there is a reporting bias when it comes to greek life on campus and i tried to address that in the piece. that is, we hear about the bad things.

it makes for good stories. you are not going to hear about the university of idaho's fraternity chapter that raised 50,000 dollars for alzheimer's research, or whatever the case may be. it just get enough news traffic so you have to recognize that fraternity culture, the greek system nationally being a huge thing, is doing a lot of good work, has a lot of advantages that you will never hear about. what are some of those? i address them there. they have marginally -- members of greek life have marginally better academic performance. a large part of that is due to community, the fact that being part of a fraternity or sorority

is a way in which, is perhaps one of the best ways to get right into the bloodstream of the social life and social existence of a college campus. so what you see in fact are -- is that at many universities, there is a lot of overlap between fraternity and sorority members and fraternity and sorority leaders, and leaders of other campus organizations. you see that as well later in life. if you look at the presidency, broadly, the majority of presidents since 1867 have been fraternity members. the majority of fortune 500 ceos

in the united states, a huge number of congressmen both on the house side and on the senate side, were involved in sororities or fraternities. so there is a lot of evidence to suggest that greek life creates or at least helps to mature people who are going on to positions of social or political responsibility more broadly. finally, you have a huge amount of philanthropic work that fraternities and sororities themselves are doing each day and it is a question i think whether that is philanthropic -- that philanthropic work would consider -- would continue if you did away with the greek system. i do not believe it would

because the philanthropic work is encouraged because there is a community based on something more than just that community service. you have essentially what is a large extended family. so when the leaders of the sorority or fraternity say we are going to do this thing everybody bonds together and doesn't. you are likely for that process to be a lot more fruitful in terms of dollars, in terms of hours of work. so those are a number of advantages that you see in the greek system, and i think it is important that we do not downplay those. host: ian tuttle which saint john's college did you attend and were you a member of a fraternity? guest: i was at the st. john's college in annapolis maryland and no, i was not a fraternity member. at a school of 400 and 50 -- 450

to 500, we did not have a greek system. so i do come to this from an outsiders perspective. there is a certain difficulty to that. it is true that for those of us on the outside who want to get insight into this world, there is a difficulty in part because of that reporting bias. you are looking from the outside and you're often relying on media reports, which tend to slant one way. and a lot of people involved in greek life will tell you that if you were not involved, you cannot understand it. there is something to be said for that immediate first-person experience. on the other hand, greek -- members of greek life are, as i said in the article, regularly

report -- report that they have positive experiences. it is difficult for someone writing about this to try to strike some balance and to be objective, whether you were or were not in a fraternity. i hope i managed to come close to that balance. host: let's take some calls for ian tuttle of national review. mark in ohio. caller: thank you for c-span. my whole bend on this is that it is -- hello? host: mark, keep talking, we are listening. caller: is that it has been all a negative thing in our society as much as they want to propose that the greek ways is the way. i have noticed in my experience in life that these people often

get appointed to jobs they are not even qualified for because they are with the brotherhood of this or that. it promotes cronyism, which is negative. it promotes that secret society type of thing that is running our country -- has ruined our country. if that whole club mentality of the pseudo-aristocratic people is just a real bad thing. it is not anything that i would let my child if i had one, ever consider doing as they are old enough to go that way, but i would pull them from it if i could. it is not the way things should be. it is that whole club mentality that is running america. host: that is something you write about, ian tuttle, the club mentality or socialization. guest: i think there was an important word in there and that is "aristocratic."

i think that is true of greek life and i do not mean that necessarily badly. it is a determination that we have to make but the case that greek life runs against the egalitarianism mentality that we tend to have as americans, we tend to want to have essentially a meritocratic criteria for entry into any organization. and fraternities and sororities often do not work like that. the question of rush, the question of becoming involved very often does not have to do as much with sort of, concrete quantifiable assets that you can bring to the organization as

much as a broader, somewhat nebulous evaluation of who you are, your identity, and whether you as a person or the type of person that we like, that we want to be involved with. that runs against something that , it runs against in a certain way and american mentality. although, the problem is all communities are to a certain extent based on that. they are based on a criteria that ultimately are somewhat ineffable and the communities that form, that fraternities and sororities form, are intensely strong in a way that

organizations based on common ends hst or even an athletic organization, or not hear it and there are significant goods to that part of it. it is a benefit to character. these sort of qualities that do not lend themselves to being measured. but the caller's point is well taken in the sense of a club mentality and whether we can tolerate that broadly because it is true that there is a nepotism that comes along often with fraternity life. there is a question of whether the evaluations, the sort of implicit in valuations that are made by fraternities and sororities are ultimately beneficial.

in certain cases, i think so. in others, they become much more problematic. host: bob is in pop michigan. caller: mr. tuttle, the him -- the fact that you are not a member of the turn of a fraternity shows up in your positive statements. i was a member before i sobered up after about a year and a half, and i got a tell you the words "future" and "fraternity" do not have anything in common. they sure do not have a future today. those two are incompatible here it host: but why, bob? caller: the greek alphabet is so dead that many of the reports use in on -- written on sae

cannot even use the greek letter s and it because it does not seem to exist and people's computers. if i was the society of automotive engineers, i would have an army of lawyers doing a class action suit to make sure that the english letter s never appears in those articles. i would sue any group that mistakenly used that. host: bob, why do you say that -- caller: it needs to die, sir. host: why do you say that? we will never know. any comment for that caller, mr. toddle. guest: the future of fraternities -- and i do think i have one -- is complicated. the distinction i made between individual chapters and national organizations toward the beginning of our conversation is an important one. you have a lot of -- you have

hundreds if not thousands of individual fraternity chapters at individual campuses. they are frequently going in and out of existence. their charters get disbanded they get reinstituted. there is a lot of flux at the local level. at the national level where you have these corporately structured fraternity organizations, they have very deep pockets, large legal teams and they have spent two decades must three decades creating legal structures to indemnify themselves against liability. the other thing is that the alumni network of fraternities and sororities as well, is massive. there are also huge donors to universities. so you have two things. one is a very complex, not

always beneficial relationship to between fraternities and university administrations and then you have the national organizations which can survive based on the enormous financial capital and sort of legal structures that they have to protect themselves. so i do think that there is a future of fraternities. the question is whether it is going to be a future that is ultimately fruitful for individual members of fraternities and sororities at campuses across the nation, and whether it is beneficial to our society at large. host: jennifer is in michigan. hi, jennifer. it helps if i push the button. caller: thank you for taking my

call. first of all, i am an african american woman. i am very pro-fraternity and sorority. they do a lot of wonderful things. i have never wanted to be in a sorority because i did not have the time going through college but i will tell you one thing we are making such a big stand everson's that young man got on the bus and said what he said. offer trinity is an -- all fraternities and sororities -- it is a lot of ways to get networking through these organizations and i want to tell you, my son is in an all-white fraternity. those kids come over here, they have no problems. we get so much negative intact and what is taking place now. there was a reality show that showed two black sororities feuding against each other totally not true. i do not want to say the name of

one sorority, they do so much to help in the education field, but we look at the press and find the worst things possible in these organizations and put it out there. networking is good. that is how kids find jobs when they finish college. it is not just for -- fraternities and sororities. we need to give them a break. we need to give a kid a break. people make mistakes. let's see what is positive that is taking place with fraternities and sororities, because they do do a lot of good things. if you want to party all the time, as the gentleman said, you have got to have common sense as well. not everyone goes off and gets drunk every night. host: that is jennifer in michigan. ian tuttle of the national review. guest: that speaks to the reporting bias that i mentioned

that we hear the bad things that make for bats -- for good stories here it there is another point she made which i think is important, which is that fraternities to a certain extent are not unique in the type of thing that they are doing. fraternal order of police is another example. fraternities are a lot like -- well, we used to have sort of men's and women's clubs that were social in nature, rotary elks, those sort of things which were doing the same things for professional men and women. and you also have the type of bonding that goes on in the military in basic training, boot camp. the types of things that go on there are very similar to the ways in which fraternities bond

young men together. so we are sort of keeping perspective in that regard. host: william is calling in from punta gorda, florida. hi, william. you are on the air, please go ahead. caller: ok. yes. i am african-american. and i have experienced some of the greek systems. my comment is, when you look at the qualifications for being greek in the white fraternities, it is all about economics. because i have heard -- the as to money your parents make. that determines their week -- greek fraternity or sorority. within the black fraternities and sororities, that economic money process is not fair. so, i look at what happened in oklahoma as something similar to

a country club now. as an african-american minority that has been 99% white, when you look across the country at different universities and so forth, there is still not a lot of diversity. economics or money first. when you do those types of things, you are not going to have a lot of african-americans or other minorities the opportunity to get in. so i was called the n word, as well, i campus. -- on campus. so i think that this is an eye-opener in a way. and i think that the fraternities, and even the sororities because it is on both sides, need to be evaluate the membership process because there are some african-americans now who have money. their families have that money. but the issue of racism and

elitistism, and what really makes a fraternity a fraternity when you look at these colleges campuses and the qualifications that need to be addressed. host: ok, william. we have a lot on the table there. guest: yeah, i mentioned earlier the aristocratic quality of greek life. this is what -- what our caller is putting out, perhaps the darker side of that aristocratic inclination, which is that it often falls along class lines. it often falls along -- requires an evaluation of -- of criteria that are troubling. and lends itself to a sort of insulation.

addressing this is very complicated because there is a lot here. there is a -- a financial aspect that is important. a lot of the social fraternities and sororities on campus is -- campuses some place like sigma aplpha epsilon, where this can't happen. it is not cheap to be a member of that fraternity. and the question of what is done with that, what it is being used for, when those dues can be $10,000, $15,000 a year, it can be a huge truck of change on top of university tuition to begin with. that is a serious question. there are also other criteria

that may not have anything to do with class, but can be equally disturbing. sororities, in particular, are often guilty of evaluating based on adding image -- body image based on clothing. these are the sorts of things that we have to make a very careful judgment about. it is not easy to do that. finally, you see a hierarchy of fraternities and sororities on many campuses. so that the better heeled fraternities and sororities and up on top. and you have a certain class system that develops. is that natural? is it artificial? would it have been anyways? it is very difficult to say.

it is certainly intensified by the presence of these organizations that sort of caught affiant and formalize it. but it is also something of -- of a natural tendency to seek out the like. so again, this goes back to the point that there are many volumes to be written about the subject. but the caller's overall point is well taken. host: in the cover story, is the party over? he writes. there is little question that the greek systems remain segregated. it is less a matter of animus than history. like many social institutions in the 19th century, the social fraternity was for much of it early existence exclusively wasp

. and aggressively so when students of other colors and creeds began to matriculate. consequently, excluded students formed their own organizations. the first catholic fraternity was founded at brown in 1890 -- 1889. and the first black fraternity at indiana university in 1903. the proliferation in recent years of fraternities catering to a particular group of students has less to do with persistent racial animus against minorities than with an increased emphasis on cultural identity. jack is calling in from davenport, iowa. caller: good morning. i had an incident when i was a graduate student in physics. we were working on an experiment in resistances. and the numbers came in perfect. too perfect. they had to be cooked. i like seeing perfect result

but, you know, if it gets to result -- close to treating, that bothers me. on the other hand, the opposite side. do people learn more in fraternities because the get extra coaching? i think that is a positive. but my question is, do fraternities maintain a bank of exams or term papers or scientific experiments to give them a great advantage? host: ian tuttle. guest: i am not sure i follow entirely. the network could certainly be advantageous, especially among fraternities and sororities that take the academics fairly seriously. and there are those that exist. you know, we talk a lot about the lack of sobriety at eternities but -- fraternities

but that is certainly not universal. i am not sure i follow the question entirely, but there is evidence, as i have said, to suggest that fraternity members are doing better academically. not necessarily that there is any evident that they are cheating. there are plenty of reasons that they could be succeeding otherwise. host: and christina in ohio. hi, christina. caller: hi, good morning. thank you for taking my call and comments. as a paired, i have twins did they graduated from college. my son went into the greek life. my comment is that i am glad that he chose that because it has an anti-hazing policy. and that was one of the concerns, as a parent, knowing about fraternities and hazing.

i would not want any part of that my child was going to be in a fraternity or sorority with that type of a structure. the other thing is just -- i worked at a fraternity or sorority. not as mr. tuttle says, in the news as much as anything bad that happens. also, the fact that i think. it's more of a bond with the brothers sisters going forward. as an example, my son and his fraternity brother that he roomed with in college and japan, reading one of their other fraternity brothers -- meeting one of their other fraternity brothers. they also have an importance of keeping up your grade point accumulation. so, therefore, everybody in a fraternity or a sorority has to pull their weight. i think that is sort of a

positive feature of having eternities. host: ian tuttle. guest: yes, two things. the first is about hazing, which we haven't talked about but is obviously an extremely important facet of this will conversation. the clampdown on hazing over the past decade or so has been extraordinary. looking at colleges and universities across the nation. that is not to say hazing doesn't go on. it does. it is often -- it often has tragic tragic consequences. one college student has died from hazing related incidents every year since 1986, i believe. and you get reports in the news often of really horrible hazing rituals.

but the national organizations have condemned these practices universally. captives -- campus administrations have done so, as well. and i believe 44 states have anti-hazing laws. so there really is a push against this -- against this especially the most dangerous types of -- of hazing rituals. and that is positive. there are ways in which young men and young women can form intense bonds that don't have to put them at risk of death. or bodily harm. the second point is about the -- the intense friendships that develop as a result of fraternity life. one of the episodes i write about in the piece is -- i

believe his name is william james bernard, the second. a black member of the sae fraternity at oklahoma university from 2001 two 2005. he was an african-american -- that if he was an african-american member of the same fraternity that was labeled racist for this recent chant and he went on cnn and he said this is despicable. because it never would have happened when he was there just 10 years ago. he testified over and over in his interview to the value of the friendships that he has formed the -- the quality and the importance of those relationships in his life. so, i found that very, very telling. that a person from this

particular fraternity, it is come under so much fire recently, can say there is still, at least at one point, a fantastic organization that had a lot to offer young men at the university. and i think his experience is multiplied over and over again among fraternity brothers. host: sarah is in sterling, virginia. hi, sarah. here is the cover of ian tuttle's cover story. caller: hi. i am going to take issue with the young gentleman what he said about contacts and excelling and everything. my husband was a graduate of ohio state. got his masters degree there. all on his own, he got a scholarship to john hopkins school of advanced international studies. and it was his hard work and

studying, and then coming down to washington and getting a job with the government. when he retired from the government, he retired -- he did that all without being a member of a fraternity. and the young man says about hazing, it still goes on. you can talk about the national organizations, but they are not there policing every single day for rush week, or whatever they want to call it. where, especially in sororities, if you don't have the right kind of body, they are going to go ahead and hazing even more. this happens over and over again. it is not reported because sometimes the young ladies just want to forget about it. and move on with their lives. outside of the greek world. but to make a blanket statement that you need to the long to a fraternity in order to -- need to belong to a fraternity in

order to get along and get a high-paying job, to me, you know, do some more homework about that. host: that is sarah in sterling virginia. ian tuttle, a response for her? guest: with all due respect, that wasn't what i said. at all. actually, i didn't even say that. i said that there can occasionally be a beneficial network, but sears husband is in the example of the vast majority -- sarah's husband is an example of the vast majority. that is as a result of hard work and personal initiative. it is certainly not the case that every successful person was somehow utilizing their fraternity contacts, given the number of fraternity members in the united states, that would be statistically impossible. the second thing is i didn't say either that hazing has stopped.

unfortunately, it continues very disturbing ways. the distinction, though, is an important one that i would like to draw out. and the caller is raising an important point, which is that there remains -- there remains a gap between what is going on at individual campuses and the types of administrative remedies and administrative attention that can be provided. so, it is true that the national organizations and cap's administrations and -- campus administrations and state governments have almost universally condemned hazing. they have put in place either significant fines or jail time, depending on the state depending on the situation. all of that is an important step in a racing -- reducing the more

troubling types of hazing. but that is certainly not the same that it doesn't go on. and the ways in which it does go on, as the caller pointed out rightly, are often disturbing. it is not just necessarily questions of -- of bodily harm. but hazing rituals have -- have the potential to do a lot of psychological damage. especially among sororities, you will find, as our caller pointed out, questions of body image clothing. i had a friend -- involved in evaluation of girls. that's what a thing is really

extraordinary -- that sort of thing is really extra ordinary, and it is not something that is going to be remediable. it has to be something that changes within sorority cultures and fraternity cultures. there is really not a way to police whether evaluations are being made about your hairstyle or not. those are the sorts of -- of very challenging, difficult is that you face when thinking seriously about the benefits and troubles of greek life. host: jim is in stillwater, oklahoma. caller: hello. i wanted to bring out a couple of points that hadn't brought up. i am an sae alum, at the chapter here at the oklahoma

state university. and there is 20% nationally of sae's that are nonwhite. there are 5% that are african-americans. and that discrimination that occurred down there should have never occurred. -- nor would i. and i'm glad that they took immediate action, sae itself. yeah, that does have to happen. but it is the largest fraternity in the united dates, so they will have a few more problems than the others do. but i heard -- learned a lot of leadership in social graces as a member of sae. and that is what their main benefit is, in bonding to that organization. i held offices in other

organizations on campus because they encouraged it. and that is what they do. and there is a definite benefit -- and i did it come from a family of wealth. there are others in the fraternity that were in all income brackets. so that is the main thing i would like to contribute. host: that is jim in stillwater oklahoma. mr. tuttle. guest: well, jim provides a first-hand evidence for something i said earlier, which is that leaders and members of greek organizations on campus often are involved in leadership positions in a variety of other ways on campus. so you see a lot of that overlap. and that can be very beneficial to those individuals and to the social capital overall of the

campus. the second thing though, is on the racial makeup of greek life, in general. you noted earlier something i wrote in the article, which is that a lot of the -- a lot of the demographic material that is cited as evidence of discrimination is really not based on current they prejudice or animus, as much as it is simple historical developments. when you have organizations that were for 140 years or 75 years or however long white anglo-saxon protestant, it is not surprising that those

fraternities can the to develop along the same lines afterward. not necessarily for reasons of a to this, but simply -- reasons of prejudice, but simply because of the momentum that was already in place. you see the same thing in other identity-based fraternities. you have a lot of fraternity -- a lot of black fraternities on campus that were established by black students in the early 20th century because they weren't allowed into what were then all white fraternities. a lot of those black fraternities remain majority black. it has nothing to do with not wanting white people or not wanting black people. it has to do with the fact that there is sort of a -- just a historical momentum and a renewed sense.

nowadays our cultural identity. that there is something particularly in fraternities that are centered around questions of identity fraternities that are developed or created for black students or for chinese students or for, you know, whatever the color or creed may be. there is an intentional effort being made to sort of cultivated that cultural identity. it is not racism as much as it is just sort of a pride of heritage, a pride of background. so the caller's point is well taken. sae's have a lot of nonwhite members. all across the nation, i think. a huge organization. so that means that is a lot of people. so, take its just a clean and

taken historically, there is not good reason to assume that there's some sort of widespread racial animus continuing to animate greek life nationwide. that is not to say that there aren't instances of discrimination, of prejudice, of really horrendous things that we ought to be attentive to. but looking more broadly, there is a narrative that some people would like to propagate that doesn't stand up to the evidence. host: here is the cover of national review." -- ""national review yuko ian tuttle -- "national review." ian tuttle, thank you for being with us. one more segment left in the "washington journal."

>> here are some of our featured programs for this weekend on the c-span networks. i've c-span2's" "booktv," peter wallace and -- wallison -- and director of the earth institute at columbia university on a development plan to counter global issues of poverty, political corruption, and

environmental decay. and saturday morning at 10:30 eastern on c-span3, a discussion on the last major speeches of abraham lincoln and martin luther king, junior. then sunday afternoon at 4:00, the 1965 "read the press goes could interview -- "meet the press" interview with martin luther king, junior. let us know about the programs you are watching. call us at (202) 626-3400. email us at comments@c-span.org. or send us a tweet @cspan #comments. join the c-span conversation. like us on facebook, follow us on twitter. >> this is how the on "q&a," the last crossing of the lusitania. >> it gets complicated when the question arises as to, you know,

what ultimately happened to the lusitania? why was the lusitania allowed to enter the sea without escort? without the kind of detailed warning that could of been provided to the captain, but was not? and this has led to some very interesting speculation about was the ship essentially, set up for attack by two chill or someone -- churchill or someone in the admiralty? i found no smoking memo. believe me, i would have found a smoking memo if it existed. but there's nothing from churchill to jackie fisher or somebody else say let let the lusitania go into the sea because we wanted to get it suck. >> sunday night at 8:00 eastern and specific -- pacific. washington journal" continues. host: at four are last segment

this morning, we are going to be looking at the issue of union membership in the united states. under report out by the bureau of labor statistics shows that union membership is dropping in the united states. michael horrigan is the associate commissioner. mr. horgan, -- oregon, -- mr. horgan -- mr. horrigan -- what are some of the trans-usa with this deck of -- this? guest: it looks at the account of union members. in that goes back to the 1930's. that shows a peak of about 26.9%. and it fell down to about 18% as of 1980. these data are based on household surveys. it runs continuously from 1983

to 2014. during that. period of time, -- the way we define that as the number of unit members who were wage salary workers out of total employees. and that is that the client. i think it's real discuss, there is a lot of different aspects about accusation -- host: and that is what i wanted to bring up next. what are you saying here? guest: well, if you take a look at the public sector first of all, if you look at the overall trend, and 1983, you see the number. 36.7. so if you follow that redline all the way across, it has been relatively stable. one of the things that may be a little bit difficult to see in a

start is what is going on in the last few years. there has really been a declining trend over the last few years. host: in public sector? guest: in the public sector. overall, the long-run trend is relatively stable. and then for the private sector, as i mentioned before with the longer run trend, that is really continuing the decline. just a month target sector employees, the rate has gone from 16.8% in 1983, 26.3%. -- to 16.3%. host: lydia depillis is also with us. when you look at this, what do you see? guest: one of them is simply that the industries in which unions have historically been strong have been decimated over the past few decades. most notably manufacturing obviously. there are a lot of things that affect those jobs overseas, or things that have made one worker

work -- there are sectors that have increased in numbers. they tend to be nonunion because it is more difficult to unionize nowadays than it was when we saw the real gains happen in the 1930's, 1940's, and 1980's. host: you see 6.6%, down from about one in five workers in the private sector. down to 6.6%. where have these people gone? guest: well, some of them have aged out of the workforce. some of them have lost their union membership, or were chosen to leave their unions as the spread of the right to work laws have risen drug the country. it is not that they have gone anywhere, they are still around. host: how important -- or how

significant is the right to work issue? by the way. we will put the numbers up on the screen, as well. we want to talk about its role in the u.s. economy, etc. we have the third line set aside for union household. guest: so, right to work laws started, you know, many decades ago. let me pause and explain what they are exactly. it is a term invented by those who backed the right to work movement because what it means is that you can belong to -- you can be covered by a union contract, but choose not to contribute dues. you can't be forced to pay anything out of your paycheck. and that makes things very difficult for unions because they therefore, don't have as much resources. and that weakens them. and when a worker sees a union

being less effective, then they don't see the reason to contribute to it. that sends it into a tailspin. host: michael horrigan. number of union members in the private sector. these are just raw numbers. how many people in unitas tasted a prolonged to a union? guest: ok, let's take a quick look. i have to switch pages here. host: oh, sorry about that. guest: that's ok. in terms of levels, the numbers stand at about 14.6 million. host: and that is down from a high of? guest: 14.7. in terms of the 1983 figures. host: and that is the run number. but let's get some calls in here as we go through some of these charts and look of the study. derek in minnesota. derek, you are on the air. caller: yes, good morning. here is a question, i think that

has always bugged me. and your graphs are proving it quite interestingly. you said the peak was in 1953. if i remember right jfk signed a law that made the ability for public employees to unionize. do you see how the graph of the private sector union went down as the public sector went, you know, pretty much straightforward? but here's my question. why do public employees need to be in unions? don't you see that is the most corrupting thing of the whole thing? i support private sector unions. i can't stand public-sector unions because it is completely corrupt. why would a citizen need representation against their own government echo host: lydia depillis. guest: that is what we are seeing these days. you see many efforts to strip public sector unions of their

power. these are often popular initiatives that politicians have not been punished for taking on. so, scott walker, for example did that. it is not for me to say whether public-sector unions should exist, but i think that they would say they should have an employer just like anybody in the private sector. and they need to have a voice at work. and they need to be able to speak with a collective sense of solidarity. so, they would say it is not actually that different. but it is true that as public sectors -- public-sector unions have composed a greater share of that union base. a lot of people are looking at them and say, i paid her salary. -- your salary. why should you have more than i do? host: when you look at the public sector, how does it break

down? guest: so, we divide the public sector into federal, state, and local. in terms of the numbers of those, in 2014, there were 17.2 million public-sector employees. about 4.1 million were in local government. and 1.9 million were in state. just under a million were in federal government. about 30%. host: so, when i look at the chart that we are looking at here, 28% of the federal government workforce is public union? am i reading that correctly? guest: correct. host: significantly higher in the local government. why is that stack of guest: -- is that? guest: basically, it is accounted for by protective services and education. host: chuck. shreveport pennsylvania. how are you doing? caller: i just had a question.

i am a local in pittsburgh. and i was wondering if there is anyway that the local guys could actually have a say in -- make a rule or whatever. if we don't agree with it, we'll have a choice. host: chuck, when you say -- what kind of work do you do? caller: sheet metal. host: thank you, sir. lydia depillis. guest: that is an interesting question. there are workers and local who feel they are not represented by the national organization. you might say that has been part of the decline in unions, as well. when unions became less responsive to their membership, -- but unions have to be structured as democracies. you have to elect leadership.

that is part of the rules. if you feel that you don't have a voice, the only because you have is to organize. host: we are going to talk to brian in edgewood, maryland. caller: hello. this is an interesting topic for me. i started in 1983, and i have been in ironworker for all my life. it is something to think about. i was at a local 201 in washington dc, worked there for years, and we became all classed by the minority where it was 80% american. now it is 90% el salvadorian. ok? so you have that in the leadership throwing us in the can all the time to undercut what we make. literally, we are being sold under four classifications like, for my example, they have a

class a that can come in and take my pay for three years and work for less and get no benefit. that is some food for thought. that is why there is a decline in the unit. and just recently, they raised our hours that are mandatory a year, which is hard to get in the first place because work is parsed. -- sparse. after the government level, you don't have anything. we don't have 30 days to repeal with our union. so we have been stripped of all our rights. we are not making anything, we are not gaining anything. for god sake, they're giving it to the minorities. the nonunion outfits are sucking up all the minorities. and all are organized labor is leaving to go to work for them because they raised our hours. host: all right. ryan, i think we got the point. any response to that caller?

guest: i think the response -- what they have been trying to do is broaden the base of unions. there is extra some interesting statistics in the growth of nonwhite, non-black workers. so you might want to ask the question of his problem -- who's problem it is? is at the workers fault? so there is now an effort to bring more people into that union movement so that everybody can raise their wages. host: back to the bureau of labor statistics report, in 1983, according to their report, 84% of union members were white 14% black. in 2014, 77% of union members were white, 14% black, and 9%

other. i am assuming other is mainly latinos? guest: so, latino is not a race category. so we have separate statistics in terms of hispanics. because as an hispanic, you can be either white or black nor other. here, and probably reflects or asian. host: one of the other things that we were discussing earlier was -- or that brian brought up wages. this is what you have found. do you know members make more money than others in similar fields? guest: so if you take a look at the chart for 2014, the difference is not hundred dollars for union members, $714 for not union -- nonunion workers. this reflects what we call the median.

sort of the middleware, if you will. but it also affects a great many other aspects that you need to take into account. for example, the age distribution of union members may be different than nonunion. they tend to be older. and earnings do tend to increase with age. it also reflects industry composition. for example, there is a lot of workers that are in food accommodation, but he is asian -- unionization rate there tends to be very low. host: lydia depillis, what is a closed shop? guest: a closed shop doesn't actually exist anymore. you can't force people to be members of unions. host: based on what? guest: what you can have is what is called an agency shop, where you don't have to be a member of the union, but you do have to pay a fee. called an agency fee.

usually, they are not that much less than regular fees. when people say right to work, they really mean right to not contribute to the union. so, they just -- also legal is something called a minority union, which means that the union doesn't represent the people who don't pay dues. host: michael horrigan, does the bls, the bureau of labor statistics, draw any conclusions besides just numbers from your study? guest: in what respect? in general, the role of the bls is to provide the data. we provide the data to researchers, citizens, policymakers. it is all publicly available. it is data that can be downloaded and used for analysis. in that sense, that is our role.

what we do is we interpret what the numbers mean in terms of the general trends over time. what we don't do is a policy analysis. we don't take, for example, the numbers and make a prescription in terms of what these numbers mean in terms of things like right to work, etc. host: let's go with the two big i think the two main messages in your packet of information that we are looking at here. number one, union membership rate in public and private. private down to 6.6%. do you see that continuing to trend downward? guest: we don't project. host: you don't project. so if i ask the same question with this chart, you are not going to project that one either? host: that is correct. -- guest: that is correct.

host: lydia depillis, which you project? guest: just because it has been in one direction for a long time doesn't mean that it will continue. we have seen a lot of union activity in recent years. they have tried very hard to campaign among fast food workers, for example. those are long-term place. i can't say whether or not they will be successful, but i think unions have really, really recognized that they are in dire situations. host: next call comes from richard in verona, missouri. hi, richard. caller: hey, good morning. i come from a family -- my grandfather is a 50 year member of a union, a union painter in st. louis. my father was a 50 year member of a carpenter from st. louis. and i am a 50 year member. so that is what hundred years of union dues. i tell you what, it has been good to my family.

my wife also blocked to the bakery union. -- belongs to the bakery union. they have spent a lot of money here lately on training our members to be first-class craftsman and on safety. we do a lot of mail work. -- mill work. it is a benefit to unit and great to me. it has put my kids through college. but the thing is, about the unions. the prevailing wage -- see, i am a union member and i have paid my dues in. but with wage jobs here in missouri, they pay the benefits directly to the nonunion worker instead of putting it into the benefit page so it is not really fair to the unions member because the nonunion member actually makes more money at the end of the day. host: all right, richard, we are

going to leave it there. lydia depillis. what does that mean? guest: i think part of it is that if you are making more, you pay more in social security taxes than your employer does. and that is a common pool that people who are not being members might draw from. and you are also could you bidding to your union pension fund -- also contributing to your union pension fund. it is true that union -- the color -- the caller spoke about education. it allows people without a college education necessarily to go into a skilled trade and make a living. we hear a lot now about workforce training. and the fact that unions are not much of a force anymore makes it so that you have to find other ways to do that. host: going into the segment, i just presumed that michigan would have the highest rate of union membership. was i correct?

guest: actually, -- host: not even close is the answer. guest: yes. so, the state that has the highest is new york, 24.6. followed by alaska. and hawaii. host: why? why did those three states have the highest union membership? guest: we don't do that kind of analysis, we just count the numbers. host: and on the west coast. guest: yep. if you take a look at the map the darker colors -- the purple and the blue -- all reflect above average, in terms of say for example, the overall rate. then the green and yellow, which is more in the center and the south of the country, the states that tend to be more below average. host: and right in the middle between 10% and 50%, the industrial -- 15%, the

industrial midwest. except for illinois. does this chart surprise you at all? guest: naturally. it has probably changed a lot over the years. maybe 30 years ago, the industrial midwest would have been a much darker color. but you have seen a mass migration of people to the south. you have seen those manufacturing jobs vaporize essentially. so what you thought as strongholds are really not so much anymore. michigan went right to work a couple years ago. and we may not see the results of that for another year or so because there are a bunch of contracts inspiring -- expiring. and that is the time when people can start rejoining, i guess unions. host: white the entire west coast? do you know why that is more heavily unionized? guest: i have some theories, but

i don't know for sure. there has been some organizing success among, for example, service workers like janitors. i mean, they are obviously more liberal states, so they are not opposed to unions in educational workplaces or hospitals. so it makes sense, although i cannot pinpoint exactly what is going on in there. host: charlie is in new york. hi, charlie. caller: good morning. thank you for c-span. i am a member of local 28 in new york city. i am retired. i speak only for myself. i don't speak for them. i don't want to criticize the bls, but there is one reason, and one reason only, for that the client in union membership. in this area, the new york metro area. one reason. and that is illegal immigration. most of the construction crews you see here do not speak

english. and when something happens like what i witnessed a few years ago when one of them falls, the rest run away. one fell and was injured, and the rest ran away. the one thing i wanted to say is these contractors, they go around and picked up day laborers -- pick up day laborers and parking lot of walmart, the go to home depot, and they pick people up. i had a problem with illegal immigration in my old neighborhood years ago. we complained to city hall about it so many times they told us to find someplace else to live. one of the city councilman had the nasty idea that they were going to put a day laborer pickup site in front of my house. so i want all the c-span listeners that are concerned about this issue, listen to what i'm going to tell you. when he threatened to do this, i threatened to go to the u.s. attorney and file a complaint

because with the city council did was they rubberstamped an area where they were in collusion, and conspiracy to avoid paying federal taxes. i was going to go to the u.s. attorney. i threatened city comes with this and they dropped the idea. host: charlie, we are going to leave it there. thanks for calling it. do you look at the issue of illegal immigration in doing your reports? guest: no, we don't. this is a household survey. it would be extremely difficult to capture illegal immigrants in terms of the numbers. what we have is a survey where we interview household members and we look at their employment status or unemployment status. so, in that sense, we can't really define it by that particular characteristic. host: have you seen a drop in union membership in the area of construction? guest: yes. there has been.

in terms of construction, the rate has gone from 17.5% in 2000 -- comparable data that goes back to 2000. and it has fallen to 13.9% in 2014. host: lidia ellis. -- lidia to tell us -- lydia depillis. guest: there is a lot of forces that have created a situation in which many people are struggling to get one job. so, that enables employers to undercut wages, even with caucasian people taking the lower wage job. so, you know, as far as hispanic people running away if someone falls, there is fewer as protection for people who don't have papers, right? it is very difficult for them to get the same kind of rights. again, the union movement has

been very active on immigration issues saying that we need to welcome these people and give them a path to citizenship. because when they have right they are better able to stand up for higher wages and better treatment. host: this is by industry. transportation and utilities 20%. all the way down to agriculture and related, 1%. have you seen any increases in these private sectors? guest: you might find an increase in health care and social assistance, but these are not as israeli statistically significant -- necessarily statistically significant. pretty much the trend has been, if you take a look at this chart, is that you see transportation, utilities, telecommunications

construction, those are all the ones with the highest rates of unionization. those are also the ones we have had the biggest decline since the year 2000. educational services is a little bit of an exception. that has remained relatively steady over the. . these are all ones that have for the most part, been small but remained fairly steady. host: -- i don't know which word to use. guest: let's take a couple that have made headlines in the past few months. the oil workers went on strike, and they still have at least several hundred thousand members, if not over a million. they went on strike for weeks and weeks, then got a contract that they were happy with. another union you might take is the auto workers, who still have

many, many plants with ford, gm, and chrysler and are now going into bargaining. you could talk about the communications workers too. to have call centers, they have telecommunication centers all over the country. they represent service workers. host: that is a public union. guest: they have public sector members and health care and education primarily, but also private. so those people who clean buildings, many different kinds of members. on the public sector side, certainly very strong politically are -- federal state and municipal employees. and the federation is like the local and state. host: james is in marysville, washington. james, go ahead. caller: good morning, guys.

unions stood up for me my whole life. they gave me before your program to trade for my class, a sheet-metal worker. i have a very good retirement from them. our dues go to pay people who care for our safety, our health care, our retirement programs, our representatives against big corporations. now, we are just run over. walmart continues to pay people dollar an hour rates. [indiscernible] and -- i see propaganda that you know, it's such a massive fight against the working unions

-- corporations that the unions of putting up. it is not true. i want someone to help me. i am just a worker, you know the echo -- you know? host: thank you, sir. any word for that caller? guest: that is certainly what a lot of people feel about their unions that have served them well. the caller mentioned walmart workers. after a very active campaign that was backed by the united food and commercial workers union, those workers got a dollar raise. not a union yet, but a lot of folks have said that that pressure helped even out union workers. host: michael horrigan, i want to go back to the issue of wages. when you look at the chart be less has put together, nonunion workers, it is pretty consistent here.

the union members making more per week than nonunion workers. but it doesn't seem to have been a downward pressure on the nonunion workers. guest: if you take a look at the data, and we don't express at this rate in terms of ratios, but what it says is that the ratio is 70 that percent. it is actually -- 79%. it has actually grown. there have been a slight rise in the roadshow from nonunion reunion. if you look at this pattern on the chart the slow increase over the time. host: also, the final chart we want to show our viewers. age. union members are aging. is that a fair assessment? guest: there is two ways of looking at the aging issue. one is in the chart, comparing

1983 and 2014. and what that is saying is, yes on average they are getting older. it has gone from 35% to 51%. the other way of looking at it is in 2014, how does the union compared to nonunion? there, they are a little bit older, as well. and 41% of nonunion members were 45 plus. host: michael horrigan, bureau of labor statistics. lydia depillis, of the "washington post" thank you for being with us. a reminder that "booktv" and "american history tv" are on c-span3 every weekend. so if you are done with public policy, turn over to "booktv" on c-span2 and turnover to "american history tv" on c-span3.