5. washington journal is next. ♪ good morning. our first topic is the environment. americans are less worried about the environment than they were in 2014, and happier with the only of the environment. our question today, our environmental issues a top concern for you? you can call us and let us know.

here is the gallup hold that breaks down americans level of worrying about environmental problems. the top of the list is the pollution of drinking water. americans were worried about this a great deal in 2014, versus those in 2015. 47% of americans were worried about pollution of lakes, rivers, and reservoirs in 2014,5, lower than in 2014. and only 32% say they are worried about global warming or

climate change. even as global warming has received greater attention from politicians and the media americans worry about it is no higher now than when gallup first asked about it in 1989. part of the excavation for this may be because the results are quite different when you break down the survey responses by political party. the gallup poll shows that democrats are much more worried about environmental issues and republicans are. 13% of republicans in 2014 -- 2015 said they were worried about climate change, which is significantly lower than 2014. for democrats, more than half of them said they were greatly worried about global warming and

climate change, of from the level that was seen in 2000. it is the only issue in which democrats say they are more worried now than they were in 2000 and. americans still do not rank this as one of the issues facing the economy. economic issues are the top problem raising the country. only 2% of americans say that the environment or pollution is one of the top issues facing the country. president obama addressed some of these concerns this week. he announced a new effort to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 28% by 2025. obama visited utah in order to make this announcement.

he also discussed the economy and jobs as well during that visit. here is a story in the washington post. obama sought to gain support in his economic agenda and if heavily republican state as he sought to expand his workforce the first his argument to increase federal funding levels and next year's budget in the face of opposition on capitol hill. they will see 375,000 feet to enter the solar will or speculatively -- they will seek 75,000 workers to enter the solar workforce respectively.

we go to our calls now. good morning. caller: i am very concerned about the environment, mainly because a lot of people do not seem to be concerned about it. to me, one of the worst things that we have is not only illusion of drinking water from pesticides, but pesticides are real health hazards for people and the environment, and wildlife. i feel like one thing that plays into all of this is when you watch the news on tv. they make a big deal out of economic issues. hardly ever hear anyone talk about environmental issues in the media. host: that was amy, and

richmond, virginia. we will now be joined by ben geman, and environmental reporter. good morning to you. guest: good morning. thank you for having me on the program. host: can you break down the administration's plan? guest: absolutely. this is both an old and new announcement. what is going on is that last year the u.s. and china reached a historic agreement on carbon emissions. they have been economic rivals and rivals on this issue as well, as to who we take more action first. the u.s. pledged it would reduce its greenhouse gas emissions by 28%, below 2005 levels i 2025.

the u.s. is the second largest reduce her of -- producer of greenhouse gas emissions. china is the largest. what that david is a preview something that the vote -- did is really something the obama administration to recently. this is our emissions pledge. what that does is set the ball rolling for a number of other countries ahead of the make or break series of talks in december in order to come to a new global climate change record. they are very hopeful that this pledge and the pledge that china has made, that this will create

this international level of political momentum to finally come after years of really rocky u.n. talks, to come to a new international climate change agreement. host: you said the white house's goal is to jumpstart other countries to make ambitious goals themselves. guest: what the white house is doing is offering a target for the u.s. that it says can be achieved without new action from congress. that is very important. the chances for any big new steps on climate change, i do not think it is going overboard to say they are zero. what the white house is a is

that here are the targets we're going to achieve with executive actions that are already in the works. some of the most important ones are these pending epa regulations to set limits on carbon dioxide emissions. another part of the plan is ongoing fuel efficiency standards. a whole other series of actions as well. methane from some of the oil and gas operations. as long as congress does not a non-block with the administration is doing, this analysis shows that these cuts are very achievable. of course, president obama will not be in office in 2025. one thing that a lot of are watching is what would happen if we have a president ted cruz or did jeb bush, who like rollback the level of cuts that the u.s. could achieve.

while these things are very achievable using only executive action and not congress, future presidents and congress could take action that would undermine these goals. host: how much of it is you do think this will be in the 2016 presidential campaign? ted cruz's opposition to some of these presidential orders? guest: in years past, climate change has made a cameo appearance on the campaign trail. it has very really been a top issue -- rarely been a top issue. i think it is quite possible that climate change will be somewhat of a bigger deal in this residential election than earlier ones because we are coming off of what people hope for in this new agreement in

paris. it also has a who the nominee s are. i think what you will see our -are republicans as saying that the democratic lands would be harmful. host: you mentioned a couple of times the discussion in paris and is slated for later this year. what is the goal of that meeting? guest: the goal of the meeting is to come to some type of local climate change agreement that would be very different on the kyoto protocol which was struck way back in 1970 in two ways. it did not require anything for developing countries where emissions are really growing.

the deal that they hope to strike in paris would not only of light to the big developed countries, but all countries as well. this is not going to be -- this is going to be very different from kyoto, because this agreement will be a series of voluntary pledges by countries that will sort of the bound up in some type of binding accord. to get technical, the pieces of fee agreement that they pledge will not be binding. there will be a lot of both good faith involved, as well as other types of agreements that provide scaffolding behind voluntary pledges. host: what do you think president obama hopes this legacy will be in his final years in office? guest: he has made this a big

thing in his second term. there has been a lot of consternation and disappointment in the environment of movement that he did not prioritize this in his first term. i think he wants to leave an international legacy on this as well. this is making some republicans in congress quite upset because they feel like these policies could be economically harmful. that said, this agreement that they hope to richard paris will not require ratification from congress. while i think you will see a lot of distaste for with the president is doing on capitol hill among republicans, they probably do not have the votes to outright for the president at this time. host: thank you for joining us this morning. we are taking your calls this morning. our topic is the environment. the question is, are

environmental issues a top concern for you? we go to gloucester, massachusetts. suzanne, good morning to you. caller: good morning. let me connect this to several issues on my plate. we live a low carbon lifestyle here. but we are in seaport production. we have been trying to become low carbon in our fishing boats. one agency states in way of the fundamental need for the fleet to green itself. maybe we would be doing less of really green dishing fleet. from a technical perspective, we have found again and again a strong obstructionism i regional administrators by the national fisheries service. we need to have a chance to

green arsenals, try low carbon to suit different ways of going about this. essentially, only 50% discussion. the other p infrastructure. host: what exactly is low carbon commercial fishing? caller: vessels that are less fuel, built on sustainable materials. technically, it is not difficult. it is straightforward to do. but there are distinct regulations that dictate, and obstruct any organic innovation in the commercial industry. glass has been around for 100 years because every day, everyone, every year people find out a better way of going about the business.

we all learn from lessons. but what we need to do, and what we have been offering pro bono has been a very painful, long slog and we try to offer pro bono for free, for the help of our community. that those folks may see from research and development that they are supported by the federal government, not obstructed. host: we will have to leave it there. next is a caller from wisconsin. caller: i definitely believe in global warming. they should not call it global warming anymore, it is more like extreme weather. getting back to politics, you want to know the first thing that mitt romney wanted to do when he got in office was to repeal the standards because he did not like what obama did. republicans are really running

cars that get 40 miles to the gallon, thank obama for that. the oil industry did not like it . host: is this a top concern for you? caller: it is a top concern. in california, they are running out of water. it is not global warming anymore, it is extreme weather. host: next up is harlan from california. go ahead. caller: how are you doing? host: how worried are you about environmental issues? caller: how concerned in my -- am i? much more than the last guy, because i live here. i am in san diego.

jerry brown can do whatever he wants, but we are a liberal state and there's not much we can do about that. and behold issue is that obama wants it to be a top concern because all of his other crisis , there is a reason they stopped calling it global warming and started calling it climate change. the commercials, that on everyone's buying into, i feel for them. but if you are a conscious individuall, you do not have a brain if you just buy right into this. host: president obama visited a

school on friday. obama: we are going to leave bicycle, invests in the future. trainer workers for good new jobs in the energy economy. that is how we're going to keep our economy growing, and that is how we going to create new jobs and create more opportunity for the american people. we are also, as a byproduct of that, going to make this country safer, and we are going to be completed more secure. where would you be the garment we are passing on -- we're going to make sure that the environment we are passing on maintain the beauty of this place for generations to come. here isost: here's the front page of the salt lake tribune from friday. the headline, the president's first time to the beehive state.

this chart also shows the level of carbon emissions around the globe. the u.s. accounts for about 17% of total global carbon emission compared to china which accounts for about 27% of global carbon emissions. the white house announced this week that it plans to reduce greenhouse gas emissions i 28% by 2025 as part of efforts to combat climate change. we are taking your calls this morning on environmental issues. how concerned are you about them? advanced top rarity in your mind -- are they a top priority in your life? we are on twitter, you can call us, we are on facebook, or you can send us an e-mail.

up next is our caller from illinois. caller: good morning. thank you for c-span. i would suggest that the global warming alarmists check into two things. one is the medieval warm. period. the second thing to study would be the minimum which refutes the co2 argument of the environmentalists. that is all i have to say. thank you. host: up next is a caller from maryland. good morning. caller: good morning. i do think that the environment is a top concern, because it is such a crosscutting issue in terms of education.

the environment is very important in terms of education. i'm a teacher, and teach the environment. we get outside and do cleanups. i think teaching about the environment is absolutely essential, as well as economics. i know that siemens is one of the largest windmill producers in the united states. my question is why cannot we manufacture our own wind turbines as opposed to a foreign company? host: would an environmental issue influence the way that you vote? the candidate they support? caller: i think so, yes. especially if they are able to sell it in the right way with it being such a crosscutting issue that affects every other issue.

civil rights, the economy education. i think that if the right candidate could package it in the right way, i would be more likely to vote for -- i don't care if they are republican or democrat. if they could package it in the right way, i would vote for them. host: a few comments from twitter. climate not a big c issue for me. california's water problem could be fixed with the salinization water plants. another viewer, yes i'm concerned, i have seen snow slowly vanish from sierra and ocean temperature rise 10 degrees along the california coast. a caller from baltimore, maryland. go ahead. caller: hello. i just wanted to make an observation. for 10 years i ran geophysical

observatory satellite. at that time we could find no such thing as global warming. 25 years ago the naysayers predicted nuclear winter. i suggest that you get a man like dr. fred singer on the program, who is a lower approach to what climate changes. there is always good to be climate change it is just a way of making something taxable so people can make money. host: if you're not worried about climate change, what is the top issue for you? why you think it iss the most pressing issue facing country? caller: security, and commerce.

our horrid job situation. i do agree that we should be able to generate jobs here with efficient energy supporters. including title generators -- tidal generators that have been invented and supported. i'm 87 years old and 40 years ago we installed wind generators in the hawaiian islands. they were evidently good then, and we now have the wherewithal to generate all of the electrical needs of the west coast with tidal generators. the gentleman that spoke and

said that he thought desalinization plants would work , if you couple those two, there is significant stability -- possibility that we could get rid of the water problems of cal oregon -- california or any other coastal areas. host: a few other headlines for you this morning. the washington post reports that sarah brady, long time advocate for uncontrolled issa 73 -- gun control, dies at 73. she died april 3 at eight retirement community. a lifelong republican, mrs. brady reached out to small organizations to prevent gun violence.

she was driving force behind gun control legislation. in addition, in political news the new york times reports that hillary clinton is said to rent a brooklyn campaign headquarters. she has leased two floors of office space for hiser presidential candidate who are orders according to one person familiar with the deal. this officially starts the clock on when mrs. clinton will have to file candidacy papers with the federal election commission. 15 days to engage in campaign activities to register a committee. she is expected to announce her candidacy in the coming days. also in political news -- the

white house is making a pitch to preserve its agreement with iran over the curtailing of its nuclear program. in the weeks ahead the white house will find out a way it supporters both of hamilton and democratic vote on the deal -- find a way to get supporters both republican and democrat, to vote on the deal. this would put us in an untenable situation with our international partners. a handful of democrats have signed a measure calling for review of the deal, sponsored by senator bob corker. on c-span, this year we will be

heading out on tv. we will be going to tulsa, oklahoma. we will present all of her nonfiction offerings in one block. >> phillips was an oilman, first and foremost. phillips 66 was a company he founded just north of us here in total -- tulsa in bartlesville oklahoma. that became the headquarters for phillips 56 is today you still see the familiar phillips 66 shield on many highways and streets, especially in this country. phillips 66 has become as familiar to many people as a co

ke bottle. it is that iconic in the minds of many motorists. he was part of that flamboyant oil fraternity that came out of the early 19 -- the eig late 19th century into the early 20th of were macho man who had amazingly solid egos. they were very sure of themselves, that was very important. but he was human. first and foremost, he was an oilman. host: make sure to tune into book tv at noon for this and other offerings all weekend long on american history tv. we are talking this morning about the environment.

we want to know whether environmental issues are a top insert or you. -- concern for you. a recent gallup poll shows that environmental concerns are at record lows. call and let us know. our next caller is richard from or a lot of vale florida -- fort lauderdale, florida. caller: thank you for taking my call. i do not think environmental issues are a major issue right now. i think state ought to control their water and things like that. the sun, to try to control temperatures, it seems impossible. there was a volcano in washington state that but more suited to the atmosphere -- put

more soot in the atmosphere then all of the industrial revolution. the greatest threat to the earth is the arms race in the middle east. i think the ice caps are actually expanding. our shorelines -- people say that they are rising, we have high rises on our shorelines and beach erosion is eating up the beach. it appears like the ocean is rising, when actually it is not a factor at all. host: coastal erosion is still an environmental issue. caller: that is a natural phenomenon, waves hitting the sand. it is like taking a hammer and hitting a rock for 100 years. it will chip away.

they need to change the code where they do not know along the shoreline. they need to back the construction of half a mile or so. as i said, the major concern right now is the earth -- for the earth is the biological things. people that disagree and debate it makes him look phony. host: stay tuned washington journal tomorrow, we will be discussing nuclear weapons and a nuclear arms race on tomorrow's program. our next caller is also from florida. good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call.

i disagree with the last couple of speakers. global warming is a fact. to walk away and says is thousand exist, who was pushing global warming? big businesses. the bottom line will go down. they are the ones that have the big mansions on the coast, they do not want to look out and the windmills creating electricity. they do not want to see a desalinization plant in their neighborhood do it somewhere else. they do not really care because they can afford electricity and no matter what the rice is -- price is. the average guy on the street has to be aware of how do we get electricity cheaper. host: you live in deerfield

beach, florida. i'm assuming that a spiny water. are you seeing any evidence of coastal erosion? are you concerned about rising water levels? caller: i am very concerned about it. we just made a deal with the neighboring town to re-furnish our sand on our beaches. that is extremely expensive because of erosion. we got hit with sandy, as far as erosion is concerned. i am very concerned about flooding. all of the risk -- reports i have read say that miami could be underwater by the turn-of-the-century. something has to be done or america is going to disappear under the sea like atlantis did. the fact is that antarctica has had a heat wave, the hottest it has ever been recorded. that is a fact.

that is not a story. that is not somebody trying to make a point. it is a fact. host: next up is a caller from california. thomas, you're on the air. caller: i would like to disagree with the last caller. it is not a fact that the water issue out here in california has in labeled a climate change issue. in fact the distraction of the water dams and everything, they have the water flowing out to the ocean. it could be regulated in a way where the farmers get the water, instead of protecting the little one inch fish called the delta smelt. president obama came out here last year labeling the problem with climate change, when in

fact it is water regulation. the farmers cannot grow crops out here, the jobs are lost, the issue is really a climatic problem that is economic. and yet, the people are just labeling it climate change. the problem continues. it is a political problem. it is not really a climate change problem out here. nobody wants to admit that. host: thomas in california. we have a number of callers from california. what are your thoughts this morning? caller: good morning. another california opinion. bernie was right. they should not be a political issue. climate change is a fact. i have been following the ipc

reports for 10 years. if you follow those ipcc reports, this is an intergovernmental paul from over 100 different countries. they are in total agreement. there is no disagreement among the scientists. the ipccc reports are very conservative and they are predicting that the summer ice cover would be gone by the turn-of-the-century. now they are predicting it will be september of this year, 85 years ahead of the original prediction. host: what does this mean for you in terms of where climate change ranks as a concern for you? caller: it is number one for me. number one enough that i did

everything i could to reduce my carbon footprint. let me wrap up a little bit with the jet stream. the jet stream is a very exaggerated sine wave in the last two or three years as a result of mobile warming. that is exactly what happened on the east coast when the east coast was having these lizards -- blizzards and they were having these cold temperatures. the arctic was 20 degrees above normal because the polar vortex had been ripped in half by these currents from the jet stream. that is the result of climate change. there is more to come. it is going to get a lot worse and it is going to get a lot worse faster than anyone thinks. host: next up is mark from california.

how worried are you? caller: good morning. thank you for c-span. i am glad you are covering this topic because it seems like we are split as a country republicans and democrats. it should not be an issue like that. i rub her back in 1964 when we had a flood out here, and it rained for 30 days. i would never have expected what is going on right now. our legs are dry, or streams are derived. -- our links are dry, our streams are dery. i do not know what we are going to do about it unless we come together as a country and start using our brains about it. we really have to stop listening to the big conus.

all they want to do is make money. quit splitting it as republican and democrat. nothing will ever happen. i sure hope we will get our heads together. host: a few comments from twitter. i do not care what you call it, pollution is pollution is pollution. keep it clean for your kids and grandkids. and very mental issues should be a concern for preserving nature and quality of life future generations. our next caller is from michigan. good morning to you. caller: good morning. i think it is not just environmental issues. they are not just economic, but national security.

it sort of represents a failure to innovate. i think at some point it is going to go the way of the dinosaur. economically is going to be a problem. i think even iran to some degree recognizes us. -- that. host: next on the phone, ted calling from los angeles, california. good morning. you are early. caller: yes i am. i get up early often. i've one point to make regarding climate change. regarding not anyone who discounts the fact that the earth does rotate, and it does

revolve around the sun should expect there to be climate change at some point. i think the dinosaurs are evidence that climate change does happen. regarding california, we have a unique place where we have water in the northern part of california, and none in the southern part, but we also the ocean down there. someone did mention about desalinization plants that they could make. we have enough water in northern california to supply southern california. but yet, they keep it up there and even have floods from time to time. so i just wonder why they would not build a pipeline like that to bring water down to southern california. and windmills should also have

solar bodies, solar panels as body so they become dual energy conduits. have a nice day. host: our last caller for this segment this morning is from south carolina. how worried are you about environment all issues? caller: i am not worried about it at all because the landlord was taking care of the environment a long time before we came on the scene. i want to address this to that yankee in california. host: that is the end of our segment on the environment. next up we will break down jobs numbers with timothy noah from

politico. then later, rules around payday loans. but first, on newsmakers, timothy perkins talked about the religious freedom act and what it means for race as gay marriage. he can watch the entire interview on c-span. >> washington journal will be seen later this morning. >> should i be required to bake a cake or a mixed race marriage if i believe in my religion that the races should not be intermingled? >> that is why rfra lays out the five-point test, in which you have to -- you can make the defense, but you also have to prove that this is in fact a true religious belief. you have to leave foundation for it. while there are those who

like to draw parallels to the civil rights movement, there is very little scriptural evidence that one can use to substantiate a racist view of black and white or any other races. but when you talk about the issue of marriage, that goes all the way from genesis to revelation. jesus said god made them male and female, a man will leave his mother and cleave to his wife. the scriptures very clear when it speaks to the issue of marriage. we have so much historical evidence within the church, the that is a well-documented viewpoint. but not the same for the issue of race. >> the politics and drinks me more. -- intrigues me more. it seems like supporters of this

law underestimated the opposition and the way this law would be received, particularly in indiana. it seems like it came out of nowhere. kenny you speak to how it was that your side sort of missed this, did not see this coming? >> i would not say they miscalculated. we saw the same thing last year in arizona and a lot of it comes down to the leadership. whether or not they will be forceful and standing in defense of religious freedom. >> washington journal continues. host: our next guest is timothy noah, here to discuss the latest jobs numbers with us. thank you for being here. we have seen really strong job growth for most of the year. last month was different. what happened? guest: in march we saw the

creation of 126,000 jobs, which is about half as many which were created in the year before. that is a significant difference. we do not know precisely why. there does seem to be some slowdown in gdp over the first quarter. we do not have the official tickers on the first quarter, but there's one estimate this is close to zero. there was a slowdown in the previous quarter we know, about 2%. very strong gdp growth at the end of the last few months in 2014. there is a slowdown. we do not know precisely why. it might be something as simple as the weather. we had a very cold winter, and that might have kept consumers away from the stores.

or it might have something to do with the dollar. but whatever reason, there is always a danger that the jobs report might be overturned and one month. the economy is a very dynamic thing. particularly, if the cause was the winter weather. with april, there will not be much snow, i do not think. we might see a very different outcome next month. host: 126 thousand jobs created in march. where were these jobs? what sectors and industries with a concentrated in? caller: health care, business services retail. where we saw a dip was in areas like mining, which seems to be related to the drop in oil prices. a very small dip in

construction. strangely, with regard to wages, we saw wages come up a little bit. seven cents, compared to three cents a month before. there is always a bit of a lack there -- lag there. the wage picture has not been terrific throughout the entire recovery. over the year, we've only got about 2% increase in wages. but there is some sign that there might be a little bit of tightening in the labor market at the very low end, and that might be what is driving mcdonald's, and walmart and a few other companies to say that they are going to be raising their minimums. host: the unemployment rate is stay the same as 5.5% is that a good thing e? caller:guest: it is neither good thing or a bad thing, just more of the

same. partly by a shortening of the work week, over the past month. we have the same employment rate for about six months. it would be good to see it come down further. but right now the focus is on wages. i think most able are less interested now in an employment rate than they are in wages. they would like to increase the labor participation rate which is still a bit lower than seems logical even when you take into account retirements. there are quite a few people participating in the workforce but not as many as we would expect. wages are the real focus is right now. they have just not come up

significantly. the recession was a long time ago now, it ended in 2009. we are now in 2015. host: we want your calls. you can join the conversation. we opening up a special line for unemployed workers. you can always find us on social media, on twitter, on facebook or send us an e-mail. president obama spoke about the job to work when he was in utah just yesterday. here's what he had to say. obama: this morning we learned that we created 129,000 new jobs in march over 3 million jobs

over the past year over 12 million new jobs over the past five years. but we have to be relentless in our work to grow the economy and create good jobs. parts of the globe have seen their economies weaken. europe has had a weaker economy, asia has been slowing down, we never have the strongest economy -- have had the strongest economy, but we are impacted by what goes on around the world. that's what we have to redouble our efforts make sure that we are competitive, to make sure we are to even steps needed to for us to be successful. host: that was president obama speaking about the latest unemployment figures in utah. timothy noah is our guest. he spoke about europe and asia and the impact of the stronger u.s. dollar on the economy. how do these things tie together? guest: that makes it harder for us to cell our experts.

there was another problem that came up during this last time. the strike on the west coast. it was finally resolved in february. the dockworkers all up and down the west coast -- i should not have called it a stray, it was not a strike, but it was a kind of a slowdown. not a formal slowdown, but there were complaints that it was difficult to get good support. that might have scrambled the picture a bit as well. now with the intervention of labor secretary tom perez, that labor dispute has been settled and that presumably will not be contributed factor moving forward. host: the countries of europe and asia how does that play into the job situation that we see here? guest: we have a global economy.

what happens there a fix what happens here. -- affects what happens here. particularly on exports. host: our first color for this segment is mike from for months. you're on the air. caller: good morning. my, and is about the economy. two is certai -- to a certain degree, committees are holding back on hiring people because we unsettled about obama care. we're going to have a court decision in june about the exchanges and things like that. this is just too much divisiveness in congress right now. i also think that president

obama's executive action scares a lot of foreign investment into the country. we are supposed to have the rule of law, we are supposed to do things the difference is a government -- through the branches of government. that is my comment. host: mike, on the republican line. guest: it really has not shown up in the data, that any concern over obamacare is a factor in hiring. actually, there has been a gradual shift from part-time hiring to full-time hiring that we saw in the time leading up to january when the employer mandate kicks in. you can say that employers are being -- once to participate in

obamacare because they are providing more full-time work. i think the truth is that it has not had much impact one way or the other. with regard to foreign investment in the united states, i think the caller was referring to the executive action on immigration. i do not believe that foreign nations care about our policy on immigration. if they cared at all, they would be in favor of more immigration because that would stimulate our economy more. i do not believe that that is a factor in what we're seeing today. host: next is jessica from louisville kentucky. you are unemployed? caller: yes. i definitely have strong feelings on this, because i feel like that if they wanted all of america to work and pay taxes then why is it that all of the

money that is distributed throughout the united states there is more going to one single person then there is going to the whole rest of society? isn't that a little messed up? host: who is the single person that money is going to? caller: the richest person in the world. host: the top 1% is what you mean? caller: yes. i saw this graph, the thing that they were showing on facebook. guest: we have a significant income inequality problem in the united states. a huge portion, over 90% of our recovery gains have gone to the 1%.

the 1% lost a bit in 2014 -- 2013 rather, and that is because there wasn't income shifting -- was some income shifting in 2012 with the increase in income taxes. but the general trend, the caller is correct, has been that the income gains have gone to a wildly disproportionate degree to the top 1%. host: i should point out you are the author of the great divergence. how do we see that playing out in what types of jobs are being created in this recovery? guest: we are seeing a lot of jobs created at the very bottom. we are seeing a lot of jobs created at the top.

we're seeing fewer jobs created in the middle, at least in the early stages of recovery. so, we are, as i said earlier, seeing a tightening in the labor markets, but middle income people are still struggling. median income today is still below where it was at the end of the recession in 2009, and that is a little bit shocking, it seems to me, when we're talking about six years later, and this was supposed to be called a recovery. yet, the typical family is actually -- in terms of market income, anyway -- a little worse off than they were in 2009. now, when you figure in taxes and then they are a little better off but really,

do you want the recovery to depend on taxes and benefits? i think most people would like to see the market serving of people better. host: next on the phone line is chock calling from -- chuck calling from florida on the independent line. go ahead. caller: good morning. how are you this morning? good morning, america. there are several issues i have been curious about. since you are the editor, maybe you can explain how these free trade agreements over the last decades has taken jobs offshore. what is it about the free trade agreements that allows manufacturers go overseas to get the cheapest labor possible, instead of distributing through

the american economy. how is it that we have been told acknowledging that everyone is capable of being a college student? -- ad nauseam that everyone is cable of being a college student? i come from the construction industry, and i have seen the wholesale the evolution of american jobs -- devolution of american jobs by a legals -- illegals coming over here and taking over the construction industry. how do you report on these factors, and how are they deleterious to our economy, and they are? host: chuck from florida. guest: we have not done a lot of reporting on trade because we have another section of "politico," that covers trade,

but there are some agreements, particularly nafta, that have a deleterious effect on certain classifications of workers, and that is undeniable. i think when you are looking at the american workers getting socked by trade, it has less to do with free trade agreements and it has to do with the evolution of trade with china and mexico over the last few years because in the past, when the united states treated with other countries, it tended to trade mostly with countries where incomes were roughly in the ballpark with incomes in the united states, and if they were not, they would come up quickly. now, there is more trade with countries where incomes are very, very low.

mexico is one example. china is probably the most dramatic example because even though the chinese economy is growing very quickly, it is a low-wage economy, and it has one billion people. it takes a long time for an economy with one billion people to rise and meet international norms. i will not deny that trade has been a factor in hurting some u.s. workers. on the education question, i think the caller is very much in tuned with what we are hearing from more and more sources which is education -- although education certainly is a long-term solution toward income inequality, and toward improving the situation of the middle-income worker, for the last decade or so, we have not

seen much of a payoff in college degrees for people trying to improve their lot. college -- the so-called college premium, the gap between people with and without college degrees earn has not grown. incomes for college graduates have not grown in recent years even for people with graduate degrees. there is a recent study from the economic policy institute that suggests while they are doing better than anyone else, for them doing better than anyone else means their income is back to where it was in 2007, while other educational groups are underwater in terms of income relative to 2007. so, you are hearing from more

and more people that education is not the magic bullet that a number of people including, to some extent, president obama have --, -- obama, have treated it as. laura summers issued a paper that if you want to tackle inequality, education is not the way to go. you need to address problems of the labor market itself, and that means minimum wage increases. it means increasing eligibility for overtime. there is a regulation we are waiting on from the labor department that will -- we expect -- greatly increase the percentage of the workforce that is eligible for overtime. right now, it is only about 11%. as recently as the mid-1970's, it was closer to 40%.

that threshold has not kept up with inflation. and, policies to encourage labor unions -- we have seen very little of that over the last 60 70 years. the nlrb has made a few movements in that direction recently. the nlrb issued a rule on union elections in december that is very controversial on capitol hill. it takes effect in mid-april, and it will speed up union elections, elections on whether or not to join a union, and that is seen as advantageous to unions. but i do not think you will see a huge improvement for the middle class until you see more movement on those kinds of policies. host: going back to the minimum wage question, as you mentioned,

several companies have announced they will be increasing the minimum wage. are we starting to see some wage pressure building the economy as more companies announce these types of measures? guest: --measures? guest: i think we are seeing a lot of things. as i mentioned before, a tightening that is partially a charitable to -- attributable to increases in the minimum wage. the federal government has not increased the minimum-wage, and it is hard to see that congress will. there is so much action at state levels that companies feel they have to raise their minimum wage a bit in order to keep up. a couple of other things are going on. in the case of mcdonald's, mcdonald's really is feeling

significant pressure from the national labor relations board which has taken it to administrative law court, to hold it responsible for the action of its franchisees in certain, alleged labor violations. those hearings began on monday this past week, so i do not think it is coincidental that we heard this week from mcdonald's that they will raise their minimum. they will pay people one dollar above whatever the local minimum is. they will start providing some form of leave. they waged a big pr campaign -- a full-page ad in the new york times. so, there is a pr component to it, but we are seeing it not just that mcdonald's, but we are seeing it at a number of companies. i think they are also feeling pressure for the fight for 15

movement. these protests have been going on -- these fast food protests have been going on now for a few years, and they have been somewhat effective in steering public opinion. our walmart -- another movement that has been directed at walmart -- these are both union-funded campaigns. fight for 15 is funded by the service employees international union, and our walmart by the united food and commercial workers. they are seeing some success in raising public consciousness. it is a different way for unions to create an impact, because they are not very well fixed to increase membership now particularly with right to work laws passing in a number of states, but they are making their impact felt in these

protests. host: we will turn back to the phone lines. jerry from connellsville indiana on the democrats line. jerry, go ahead. caller: good morning to both of you. mr. noah, i have a lot of things i have to say, but i will keep it condensed due to the time limit your i will tell you -- time limit. due to the fact, -- because of outsourcing, people in this country get tossed aside, and on top of that they have to retrain their replacements. in other countries, they have a program which allows you to be placed into a different job immediately. i think that makes it so much better over there. why can't we have something like that here?

i know it is important for companies to make money but when you have to do that at the expense of the human element that is going over the line. on that note, let me say bernie sanders for president, mike dayton and nina turner for vice president. [laughter] host: that was jerry from indiana. a question from twitter -- can we get to prior wage has as long as empires -- employers have abundant outsourcing? guest: outsourcing is a problem in manufacturing and the service company. to my deep alarm, even reporters -- [laughter] particularly financial reporters are being off short these days. -- off-shored these days, and i think i read reuters have had

jobs off-shored to india, closer to the subject. guest: not immune --host: not immune. guest: alan blinder has written that he thinks off sourcing. -- thanks off shoring will stop being a source. he thinks they will go after the hiring jobs. host: they will put pressure on the top. guest: that is right. he said people like me at princeton giving a lecture. why could it not be a hologram of a guy in india who charges a lot less? a number of higher-income fields are susceptible to off-shoring. you hear a lot about

radiologists. i do not know if you have ever dealt with a radiologist. you never meet your radiologist. all a radiologist does is read some data based on tests, interprets it, and files a report. that could be done anywhere in the world. so, we are going to start to see some mounting economic pressures to off-sure a number of higher-income jobs, and it will be testing to see -- a couple of commentators have pointed out -- it will be interesting to see that affluent people that have been preaching strict adherence to free-trade principles, if they will continue saying that when it is their job. host: don is the next caller on the independent line. you are on the air with timothy noah from "politico."

caller: yes. i am continuing this information on manufacturing jobs. manufacturing used to be 25% of our economy, and it has fallen to 10% of our economy. the super-rich that have resulted from huge profits made in overseas labor were given eight eight -- a tax break recently by the federal government so that they do not have to pay 35% tax on money they would like to bring back and spend here in the u.s., not for manufacturing jobs, but for personal benefit, and that is a tax that they are paying -- as i understand, it is 15%. there were about $3 trillion, or $4 trillion in banks overseas that have been accumulated by companies that manufactured other products overseas.

i served in two wars, and i tell you, if i were a young man today, and i was drafted to protect this outfit, i would tell them to go to hell, and move to canada, because the middle class is getting screwed royally in this country, and it is time for politicians to wake up to it, and try to fix this problem, because it is a serious problem. host: that is down from homewood illinois. guest: actually, you do not have to worry about getting drafted since 1973, but i take the caller's point, it is a bad time for the middle class in the united states. that is not something we can really afford to be blase about. a solid middle-class is really fundamental to a well-functioning democracy.

a famous sociologist named barrington moore once wrote "no bourgeois, no democracy." you need to have a middle class in order to sustain a well-functioning democracy. there are studies that show -- you look at all of the rancor in congress right now, which is remarkable -- i saw one study that says there is more partisan disagreement in congress today in the house of representatives, anyway, then there was during the period of post-civil war reconstruction, when the house of representatives consisted of people who just a few years before had been trying to kill each other. there was less partisan rancor then there is today. a number of studies have shown a strong correlation between partisanship in congress, and income inequality, so that is a real concrete cost. host: "politico" published this

story on the jobs numbers yesterday with this headline -- "how the economy rains on barack obama's parade." it is not just an issue for a lame-duck incumbent, but seriously complements -- complicates matters for the would-be successor, hillary clinton. host: how could the jobs numbers end up playing out influencing a presidential campaign? guest: if we are at the start of a serious slowdown, that will be a dead weight for any democratic candidate. now, i underscore "if." it is very premature to say we are seeing a slowdown in job creation.

we are talking about the evidence of one month. it is true that we are seeing gdp slowdown. we saw that in the previous quarter, and we will likely see it again in the current quarter based on parliamentary estimate. so, that is worrisome. a democratic candidate is going to run, in part, on obama's economic record. al gore ran on bill clinton's excellent economic record in 2007, and it -- and it still was not enough. the democrats are going to need all of the help they are going to get from the economy, and they might not get it. host: up next, the republican line. david is calling from albany, new york. caller: good morning, mr. noah

and c-span. you are talking about education and the idea that education only takes place within the four walls of an institution -- i would have to disagree with that because it is mostly people that have never experienced the marketplace or a real economy. secondly i would say that this migration out of the private sector into the government sector, and into the regulatory philosophy that we live in under now, this also is an affect on our jobs. you cannot sustain that large of a regulatory group -- that many government employees -- without a large private sector. until you realize there is an education process that goes on in the private sector, myself included, because i have been doing what i do 45 years, and i'm still learning it every day.

it is so out of balance, that until people migrate out of government, back into the private sector, where the real rubber meets the road, then you will see some of whom it. i will take your comments off of the air. host: all right. that is david from new york. guest: actually, the federal government -- if we're talking about the size of the federal government, it is axing no bigger in terms of personnel -- it is actually no bigger in terms of personnel than it was 50 years ago, and we have a much larger u.s. population that it is serving. so, we have not really seen expansion in the federal workforce. most of the expansion in spending in the federal government has been managed by contractors, and people in the private sector to whom government work is contracted out. at the state level, you have

seen substantial increases in government personnel, but, that actually, has been one of the few significant drivers we have seen of middle-class economic growth in recent years. if you look around the country at the places where -- a city like columbus, ohio, for example -- columbus has become an important economic center in ohio, not so much because of the private sector, but because it is the center of government in ohio, and also because of university spending. host: living -- vivian from tennessee is calling on independent line. good morning. caller: good morning. two quick points -- if they stop shipping jobs overseas -- ever since they started shifting jobs overseas, we have been getting bad products. when americans were creating

products here, everything was going smooth. these big companies, especially in tennessee -- republicans own our state. there talking about not raising the minimum wage. when you go up and down the streets, you see mexicans working here, working for these big republican companies. they are not saying anything. if you come to tennessee, you see more mexicans working than black and white people. host: that was vivian from tennessee. alan from scottsdale california , on the republican line. go ahead. caller: thank you for c-span. love the programs. here is where i am at -- i have been a businessman, in business, for 27 years. there are several solutions that could help this country. it takes a president with a vision.

obama's vision is to literally destroy the energy sector, which would actually help our country. here is a solution, and here is a vision -- every household can produce its own energy. there is technology today that a unit for $3500 can be put on a house, and actually create energy, and it is through natural gas, methane gas, and even ebay themselves has units pumping energy from a landfill to their building to produce energy. host: so, alan, how is this related to the employment situation? caller: it is very simple. it takes a vision. the vision is you could have a manufacturing facility in every state to produce this product that can make, and actually

reduce grid 100%. you have every building in the united states using electricity actually producing electricity. host: that is alan from scottsdale, arizona. any comments on the previous two callers? guest: if we are talking about energy, right now the united states is going through an energy boom. if obama is trying to destroy the energy industry, he has a funny way of doing it because we have seen a huge expansion of oil production during obama's presidency, largely due to fracking. one of the causes for following jobs growth -- falling jobs growth in the mining industry has been falling oil prices. falling oil prices are mostly a blessing to the overall economy, but they do pinch parts of the economy.

so, i think the premise of the caller's comments is incorrect. we are actually seeing a very strong energy boom right now in the united states. host: we have time to get in two more phone calls, i believe. the first is sherry from chicago, illinois, calling on the democrats line. caller: hi. host: hi, sherry. caller: i love c-span. let me say that first. this is with regard to the speaker's comments of higher-paid jobs like those of radiologists, being outsourced and so forth. i think everyone needs to wake up and realize we are all in this together. if they can outsource your neighbors job, chances are they can outsource yours and with that in mind, you have to support union members of all industries. you have to come together if you

are a union and support the other unions, and we have to really build coalitions. i am not a member of a union. i work in consulting software and management consulting, and you see a lot of what happens when outsourcing comes to town in that particular industry. i also want to ask the caller about the tpp, and why there is not more reporting about the tpp the transpacific partnership trade agreement. it is going to affect many things, including labor. host: all right sherry, from chicago, illinois. guest: well, with regard to labor unions -- the caller is right, labor unions are in trouble right now particularly in the private sector where union membership right now is below 7% throughout the country. i wrote in my book on income inequality, which comes back to me frequently, "it is as if the

new deal never happened." we are now back to the percentage of union members in the united states comparable to what we had prior to franklin roosevelt's election as president. the question is, is the labor movement going to revive itself? we talked a little bit about the fight for 15, and new ways the labor movements are trying to make their impact felt. i think this is one of the very large, significant questions in the united states right now, and certainly my section of "politico" is very interested in following all developments with respect to unions, alternative unions alternative arrangements to address wage concerns. one story -- we had a caller from tennessee -- one story we are very instead in following his concerns that a volkswagen

plant in chattanooga where they are trying to create something akin to a european-style work council, which involves a uaw, a group that is antiunion, a group of workers that are antiunion working together with management to try and collaborate. an interesting experiment. it might have serious implications for the future of labor and the workforce. host: denise from holden, maine on the republican line is our final caller today. denise, go ahead. caller: hi, my one question, and then a quick comment is, are the part-time jobs in the job report -- are they included as one or half of the job? guest: that is a good question.

i am not sure how part-time jobs are tallied in the jobs creation number. i can say that a lingering problem has been that there are a number of people who are working part-time involuntarily and that number came down a bit at the end of last year, but, i think, has not moved in the first few months of 2015, and there is serious concern that just because you are working does not mean you have as much work as you want. host: timothy noah, labor reporter at "politico," thank you so much for enjoying this joining us. guest: thank you very much. host: next week will speak to carter dougherty about new rules

for payday loans, and later daniel raymond. stay tuned. ♪ >> here are some of our featured programs for this holiday weekend on the c-span networks. on c-span, tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern, former texas state senator and gubernatorial candidate wendy davis on the challenges facing women in politics. on eastern -- easter sunday golf legend jack nicholas received the congressional gold medal. on c-span two, on "after words," cornell west on the radical thinking of martin luther king jr., and then our live conversation with former

investigative reporter for "the washington post, and "new york times" best selling author, robert kessler, who has written "escape from the cia, "sins of the father," and "the first family pickup tonight at -- family." tonight, on "lectures in history, ulysses s. grant. then, a tour of apparatus courthouse in virginia. >> next week at 9:00 p.m. eastern, conversations with a few new members of congress. representative hurd: i knew my

mom would be crying. i said dad, do i need to send someone to get your cane, and he said i'm in the capital. i do not need a cane. i know they were super proud. >> the five newest members of congress talk about their careers and political lives and share insights about how things work on capitol hill. june is for the conversations each night at 9 p.m. on c-span. >> "washington journal," continues. host: our next guest is carter dougherty of bloomberg news, here to talk about newly proposed regulations by the consumer financial protection bureau that would target payday loans. cfpb is targeting loans that range from $100 to $500, and

hand have interest rate of 400%. can you explain what a payday loan is? guest: you walk into a storefront, you say i have a job, but i need $200 until the next payday, and your collateral will be a post-dated check you write a check -- post-dated check. you write a check, and at the end of two weeks you simply let the check be deposited by the lender, and that is the way you pay them back, or you might go back and say hey, i cannot afford this -- i cannot pay this back right now, give me another loan. host: how is that different in other forms -- than other forms of credit in terms of interest rates. guest: the rates tend to be high measured as an annual percentage rate. the other important thing to

remember, especially as we will be talking about the cfpb is these are not underwritten loans. the lunar does not go through your finances the way you would if you get a mortgage and they say are we sure this person can repay the loan. they confirm you have employment, and then you get the loan. host: who are the people that tend to use this type of credit? guest: we know from research it tends to be people in lower income brackets that do not have access to other forms of credit, and again those are other forms of credit that the rest of us, many people might use very readily. a credit card is the best example of that and other types of installment loans. host: what would be proposed regulations -- how would a change the industry? host: -- guest: there are two proposals. if you are going to lend to

somebody, you need to confirm they have the ability to repay the loan. the second is if you're not going to do that, you need to follow certain guidelines to ensure that the loan is ultimately affordable for this person, and a good example of that might be a voluntary limit on how much interest the prison could pay. host: we want to hear your thoughts on this topic as well. you can call us on the republican line we have also opened up a special line for this segment for folks that have used payday loans. send us a message on twitter. we are on facebook at facebook.com/c-span, or you can e-mail us at journal@ www.c-span.org. can you walk us through the

timeline of how these proposed relations might become official and enforced? guest: not a quick timeline. in the beginning, due to some concerns that regulation will post a burden on small businesses, any general proposals by cfpb will be vetted by a panel of experts that are out to determine whether this might be an undue burden. after that, the regulation writers at cfpb will go to work, and you can bet on a couple hundred pages proposal later this year, and then after that, the doors are swung open to public comments that could take all sorts of forms from meetings to the agency to very lengthy letters. after that period, the agency closes its doors and subsequent about how to process this information, and what would be our final regulation. then they would set a date for the limitation. host: how likely is it what we

see as the posted a could be significant in different down the road? guest: i think there is a fair likelihood that some things could change. i think the that the basic thrust of it changes are pretty low. i think the agency has embraced this principle before -- this idea of ensuring that someone has the ability to repay a loan -- i would be very surprised that they simply abandon that principle. host: again, the proposal from the cfpb around payday loans is that payday lenders would have to verify before extending additional credit, and it would also potentially, have to limit the amount of fees they can charge their customers. we are turning now to your phone calls. first is kirk from lafayette louisiana, my home state, an independent line. good morning kirk. caller: good morning.

host: what are your thoughts this morning? caller: i just had a question about a lot of the politicians regulating these payday loans have payday loan stores themselves, and what can be done about that? isn't that a conflict of interest? guest: i have heard that is a -- the case in your home state of louisiana. i cannot confirm that myself. i've not done a lot of reporting in that particular state, but i will say the federal level, were regulators are making the decisions, i have no reason to believe and every reason to doubt that anyone involved in this decision would have a financial stake in payday lenders. host: what we talk about payday loans and how they differ from traditional forms of credit, what types of interest rates are we talking about, and how is it that a two-week loan ends up lasting a year or longer? guest: the cfpb has cited the

number of 521% as an interest rate for payday loans. now, we should talk about how this particular regulation that cfpb is proposing will include more than just your classic two -week payday loan. it would be loans that might extend, short-term for 25 to 45 days, and also that kind of loan that is known as a bank payday loan -- regular, old banks were you deposit your paycheck, offer this type of loan, and debit it from your checking account. we talking about a very broad monopoly of short-term credit. host: and how do they end up charging, as you say, the 521%? guest: well, you have to remember that is the annual percentage rate, so someone loans you money for a day at 1%, that is an annual percentage

rate of 365%. you can understand why some of these interest rates get very high, the one simple reason for the high interest rates is there is a high risk population of people. there is a high default rate. it is not something calibrated to exactly what people might be able to afford. so the result is lenders charge high rates to cover the costs to make profit. host: this issue has also drawn the attention of the white house. president obama spoke last month at alabama community college about this issue and expand how short term payday loans can lead to the cycle of long-term, unpaid debt. [video clip] president obama" there are quite -- president obama: there are four times as many payday loan operations as there are in mcdonald's here in alabama. in theory, the folks that run this will say they help you deal with a one-time expense. your car breaks down. you have to go to work, you can

cash a check really quick, get a quick loan, and that is the end of it. in reality most payday loans are not taken out for one-time expenses. they are taken out to pay for previous loans. you borrow money to pay for the money you already borrowed. before you know what, you find yourself trapped in a cycle of debt. at first, it seems like easy money, but the average borrower ends up spending 200 days out of the year in debt. you take out a $500 loan at the rates they are charging for these payday loans, some cases 450% interest, you wind up paying more than $1000 in interest and fees on the $500 that you borrowed. host: that was present obama speaking on payday loans in alabama last month. this is a response from the industry group community

financial services financial service association of america. host: we are speaking with carter dougherty of bloomberg news. your thoughts of this back and forth. guest: the immediate reaction you'll get from the agency has to do with a study they published in 2014 when they came to the conclusion that four of five payday loans are taken out to cover the cost of previous payday loans. so, in a nutshell, the reaction might be you want to make a loan that someone can afford to pay back quickly -- fine, that is possible under these regulations. if all you want to do is make loans that trap people in with the agency likes to call that

traps, -- debt traps, we have no somebody for you. host: greg in sioux falls on the republican line. caller: good morning, carter. guest: good morning. caller: i am in south dakota, and way back when citibank was looking for a place to put their credit card operation, we change state laws and they left the interest rate open-ended for that. a few years later, we legalized video lottery, so every time you get a new street -- stripmall you have a new casino and a payday store next door. people have been trying to fight this, and it has been shot down every time. i'm wondering, these payday loan places, some, i believe, are run by citibank, and some are run by another outfit in las vegas.

there are so many shell companies, if they make a campaign contra vision, you cannot -- contribution, you cannot trace it back. will the new federal laws force the states to change their loans? guest: to my knowledge, citibank is not involved in payday loans. they are involved in credit card processing, and the caller is alluding to the fact that there is a lot of data processing that takes place in south dakota from citibank operations around the world. there are no plans at the federal level to somehow change state laws on payday lending but a good way to think about what the cfpb is proposing on payday lending is that these are, kind of, baselines of what they would call important consumer protection, and states are free to add to the

protections that they offer, but they cannot subtract, water things down. host: this chart was put together of state payday loan regulations and usage rates. those that offer loans at 320% interest rates or higher. nine states fall into that category. restrictive states have no payday loan storefronts. 15 states fall into that category. so, there really is a wide variance in how states address this issue. our next caller is charlotte from tallahassee florida, on the independent line. charlotte, you have taken out payday loans before. is that correct? caller: yes, in the context of

helping as a cpa financial planner through the church that helps its parishioners to try to channel through the disastrous -- host: are you still there charlotte? charlotte? all right. we will move on to lisa, then, from louisville, kentucky. charlotte, you can call us back, if you get a chance. on the democratic line, lisa, you have also taken out a payday loan. caller: yes, i have. thank you for c-span. a couple of years ago i was very sick with cancer and we had to file chapter 13 bankruptcy. i do receive disability and my husband has two jobs. we do take out payday loans, we understand how they were, and i think it is the responsibility of the person to understand. i have taken them out for 400 $500 and it is usually $80 to

$100 you have to pay back. i really hope they do not take the ability to take away payday loans for someone like me because i cannot get credit otherwise. thank you for c-span. guest: thank you for calling from louisville, kentucky, one of my favorite towns. it happens to be where my parents live, so i spend a lot of time there and looking at payday loan stores. i would be curious as to whether anyone had asked you to call into the show to talk about this if you are still on the line. caller: no, they have not. guest: what i would throw out there is to think about how you might fit into a payday loan if, for example, somebody has to say to you, what kind of money do you make each month, how much do you have left over? if you feel like things would work out for you that way -- that you could still get that loan, a quick look at your

finances with suggest you would be able to pay it back these regulations may very well work out ok for you. it is just a thought, a hypothetical, but good luck in your financial situation. that is a tough one. caller: thank you. host: the caller brings up an important point, i think carter, which is there is a demand any need for short-term credit for folks that have low income, and it seemed like those of the people that probably need it the most. is there any way, or are there any models, of providing short-term credit to these types of customers without those levels of interest rates? guest: there have been a couple of experiments on these. i would say generally they have fallen into a couple of different categories. one category is that the fdic, the fdic, has tried out a few models, and they have provided

financial incentive to banks to offer these kinds of loans, which, maybe, is another way to say subsidizing them. an alternative model as the credit unions coming up with a few, but nobody has really cracked the code for lowering the cost of a payday loan precisely because it is a high-risk pool of people. the question of credit availability that always comes up in regulation of financial services, and probably, you're going to come back to this argument that the cfpb has made, namely that if all we are doing is squeezing out the payday loans that are taken out to pay other payday loans, then i think we are doing the right thing. host: a question from twitter -- every time we have a payday loan segment, a basic question goes unanswered, how do these terms not violate state usury laws? guest: the short answer is not

every state has a usury law. new york has a criminal usury statute. west virginia has a usury statute, and axa, a provision in its constitution, -- and, actually, a provision in its constitution and a vigorous attorney general who enforces those, but many states do not have any restrictions. tennessee -- you just heard the caller from kentucky -- they do not have a usury law. florida -- the list goes on. there are plenty of states. these laws were generally, although not entirely, repealed in the course of the 1970's, when higher inflation meant that interest rates -- requiring interest rates to below effectively ceased lending -- two b low effectively ceased lending. host: roof -- ruth in texas. caller: good morning, and happy

easter. quickly, i want to make one point that has been discussed, but another point -- a, what are these poor people supposed to do? now, i want to leverage that into a comet on what somebody -- comment on what somebody from south dakota mentioned, whereas each stripmall has a payday loan operation next to a video lottery. it seems that we have generated to the point where we have legalized would use to be criminal activity. on one hand, we have legalized loansharking, and on the other hand we have legalized gambling, but i will go back to my first point and say what are these poor people supposed to do? now, you can subsidize the banks to make these loans, but, in a sense, these are high-risk. they are probably higher risk -- they do not have the assets to panwn.

they cannot go to a pawn shop. i do not know what the alternative is. host: on a related note, this article in "the new york times," notes that nearly 70% of borrowers use the loans tied to the next paycheck to pay for basic expenses, not one-time emergencies, as some within the payday lending industry have claimed. guest: a couple of things to bear in mind here -- do not forget this point repeatedly made by cfpb, that most payday loans are taken out in order to pay off another payday loan. so, again, if you are curbing back by the market, the agency will have considered itself to have been doing its job. cfpb the has really tiptoed around the notion of whether it wants to make certain kinds of loans and possible, or simply ensure that they are responsible, not wanting to ban

products --to ban products outright, and it will be testing to see if they can pass this test in the context of payday lending. can they come up with a framework that does not get people into what the agency calls debt traps without actually driving the business out of business. it is a good question. it is the circumstances that are going to be up for debate here. host: next, bernard, from west monroe louisiana, calling for the democratic line, who is also a payday loan user. is that correct? caller: yes ma'am. host: bernard, what are your thoughts? caller: i understand that payday loans -- it is not allowed in that particular state.

if a loan is available in a state, the interest rate would be lower than the person would have lower debt and establish credit. under my terms right now, a payday loan does not establish credit. that is a dilemma most people have. i cannot get a loan to a traditional means so why not [indiscernible] compared to a payday loan. guest: the caller makes and testing point about building credit and getting into the more mainstream financial system. that has been a challenge for many payday lending customers. that is why they end up going to payday loans, and one of the unanswered questions, certainly in my mind as a reporter, and i will be checking this out, the cfpb proposal covers other types of loans -- installment loans

that you might pay back in 6, 8, 10 chunks, and it would be interesting to see if that would pave the way for lower-income borrowers with no credit history to build that credit industry -- -- history -- to demonstrate they can borrow responsibly and pay it back. bernard, you raise a great question. it is possible, although it still bears some further look whether this kind of regulation would open the door for what you are hoping for. host: how do consumer advocates feel about the proposed regulations? are they in favor of them? guest: consumer advocates have been wanting people to do something for a long time. they fought this battle in the 1990's. now, they fought very hard after the financial crisis for the enactment of the dodd frank wall street reform and consumer

protection act, they created the consumer financial protection bureau, and since then, yes, they have been banging on the table looking for action in this area. i think when this proposal was put out about 10 days ago, there were consumer groups who were even a little disappointed that cfpb did not go further. they would not be unhappy, many of them, to see this industry simply disappear. host: michael calhoun, the president of the center for financial mess responsible lending made the statement guest: yes. that is, in a nutshell what they would be worried about. to the extent that people like mike's organization, the center for responsible lending, have a

vision here is once you have a legal framework in place that would instruct lender's ability to in -- investigate people's ability to repay loans, there would be greater investment in data processing so that people on the basis of data points like whether they pay their rent, or how well they meet other obligations -- whether they are a good risk for a loan. host: susan from fort myers florida, is calling on the republican line. susan, you are on the air with carter dougherty a bloomberg news. caller: please do not hang up because i have some points to make. i know in georgia they started a state lottery, and that is a numbers racket. i was in a low-income servicing type business. i own coin-op laundry's. my revenue fell. my leakage from employees went way up when they started the

state laterally -- lottery. i decided after i sold them that i would go into the payday lending business because it was the right time, and the default rate are exceptionally high. you have a cost of operation in there. you do not come out of it wealthy. you just have to have built excellent credit so that you can get your creditors to give you lower rates, as well as having a huge amount of capital available as an independent operator. with the state lottery coming in, it was katie by the door for me because you are stealing from the poor. eight they feel that is the only way to make money, or whatever. when the state is operating in what i consider an immoral fashion, i figure it gave me grounds to operate not in an immoral fashion, but a legal thing -- when i graduated in college, the usury rate in

alabama was limited loans of 10%, and interest rates were 18%, so people in alabama could not even get a credit card because of usury rates. i also feel that people over 18 that make the choice should have the choice to do whatever they know with the money going all over the place, if they want to sign a contract and pay, doesn't matter what their situation is. guest: you make an important point about personal responsibility and financial services and you know, needing to take responsibility for where you put your john or jane hancock. i would throw out this, though, i have thought about a lot now covering it for four years and that is there's a lot of things in american life we are not allowed to do because the government says or we don't object to them and a very good

example would be if you take prescription pharmaceuticals, you can't go and buy your pharmaceuticals off the shelf and have to be approved by the food and drug administration and we did that for a reason early in the 20th century, namely there are a lot of quacks out there and fake doctors who might fleece people for their last money because they were desperate, sick and trying to get well. and the ultimate conclusion that we drew from that situation was that you needed regulation to force the bad actors out and make sure the good actors could profit from genuine innovation from finding some sort of compound that would actually heal people or fight diseases and that sort of thing. so we take this for granted in an area like pharmaceuticals, we don't do that for financial services in this country, or haven't in the past. we've assumed if you're going

to sign that, it's entirely your responsibility. and one of the things that the sort of underlying themes of the work cfpb does is say hey, in some sense we need to treat financial services a bit like the pharmaceuticals in which there are, sure, we could throw up the doors and let anybody do anything but what we need to take a look at is their practical effect on people. and if we find that there's extensive harm to consumers we should do something about it. host: do you have any sense what consumers in states that do not allow payday loans do when they're short of cash, where do the low-income customers turn? guest: it's hard to study something that doesn't actually exist. there's been a few cases where for example, someone, some state has payday lending and then doesn't have it. but broadly speaking, you don't see any sort of cataclisms when

that option disappears. you do find people borrow from family for example, that sort of thing. but the better answer to that question seems to be that people develop different habits. but again, that's something where the evidence is dicey because, again, it's hard to study something that doesn't exist. host: with the proposed regulations, do they cover online payday lenders as well. guest: they would cover all forms of payday lending. that having been said, there's a sometimes thriving industry and offshore payday lending that are outside the federal government's reach so that's been a constant to and fro. there's a constant game of cat and mouse in the lending business over exactly how they get the rules applied to you. host: hassan from dearborn heights, michigan, is calling on the democratic line. you're up next.

caller: good morning. this is a good subject. my question is legalizing shark cloning in a small segment like this would actually prey on the people who have no way to get short-term money. why not keep it under the pawnshops? you have a check, it's an asset in your hand. you take it there, you put it there, they give you the money you come back and take that good check. if you don't there's legal proceedings that teach you a lesson not to do that again if you can pay it. this is very simple process we have the pawnshop with whether you have a radio or watch or a check with your signature on, that's how much you need.

guest: do you own or have a pawnshop? caller: absolutely not. but those are what we call a popular transaction under state law and regulatoried by the local police in every city. this is an easy way to ease this process for people that understand that their check is an asset in their hands. if they're saying that check is not an asset then they have to change. host: that was hassan from michigan. guest: you make a good point. to use the little bit of jargon, payday lending is an unsecured form of credit meaning there's no widget, gadget car, home that a leppeder can seize if you don't pay back the money. pawn lending is a form of secured credit. and you're not alone in your opinion that pawn lending is a better way to go if you have an asset that you're able to pawn. the cfpb likes to use the label debt trap to refer to the cycle of debt that some people get

into when it comes to payday lending. and of course the beauty of a pawn broking operation is you get your loan, you pawn something, that something goes away if you don't pay back the loan and then you have no chance of getting yourself further into debt. host: a few comments from twitter. larry lauder asks what's the federal constitution of the basis to inject itself in the private loan business or the c.p.a.? also a democrat says just because poor people have no other options, are we supposed to allow them to be exploited? not in my book, high risk or not. and just another person on twitter writes, those interest rate numbers completely mischaracterize the cost. nobody should wait a year to pay back the loan. our next caller is from richmond, virginia on the independent line. you've taken out a payday loan before, is that right?

caller: yes, i have. good morning. and i totally agree with the statement the president made that there's no way once you get caught up in that vicious cycle that you'll be able to pay the loan back. it's a convenience for the less fortunate. however, in my humble opinion, i think it's a weapon of mass destruction that's located in the black community. i'm not saying it's not elsewhere but the majority in the black desecrated areas throughout the community. the usary rate on that is 20-plus percent and caught caught in the cycle by having car problems and was able to maximize the highest loan at $500 and thought i'd pay this right back but i found myself borrowing the same amount of money i borrowed the first time so it's a never-ending cycle and think it should be regulated. why not give the people the loan but drop the usary rate on the loan and make it a

convenience because we know the people within the community don't have that excellent credit so if it was going to be something that's advantageous for the people, they would make it a lot less cheaper to borrow the money. guest: a couple things there, sir. one is you're not alone in worrying this has a disproportionate impact on communities of color. this is something i've discussed any number of times, had a long conversation with a state representative in louisville, kentucky, about this. he was worried about the impact and his constituents in downtown louisville. you're definitely not alone there. as for the usary rate, this is a complicated matter, and it's dictated by the finances of financing payday loans, which is it the default rate is very, very high and it's very, very expensive, it's very expensive

for lenders to offer these loans, then generally speaking, they've found that they need to offer -- they need to charge these rates of interest in order to make back their money and make a profit. it's a challenge and some people are trying to solve that by seeing can we sort of do some underwriting and, you know, make these loans more smartly so more people pay them back. but that's a really hard nut to crack and nobody's really done it yet. host: ivan from dallas, texas, is our next caller on the independentent line. ivan, you're on the air. caller: hello. yes, i'm talking about the payday loans. that's a highway robbery. and i have to pay so much on taxes and everything just because we're down in lower brackets and everyone else gets tax breaks when you make millions of dollars and isn't fair for the people. the people need to wake up and say hey, the government is taking too many taxes from us. we're poor already. how much more nickel and diming are you going to take from us

you know? give me a tax break and maybe i wouldn't be in this category. i would have enough money and wouldn't have to be nickel and diming me all the time. -next up is tim from bloomington, indiana, on the republican line. caller: i find it interesting these payday loans take advantage of people who otherwise would not be eligible for a loan and since they wouldn't be eligible for a loan they milk them for everything they're worth in fees and interests and in someone like my grandfather, earl w. kentner were alive have businesses that were shunned and shut down and find it appalling our nation lets it happen to people who are poor and unable to defend themselves. thank you. guest: you raise an interesting point and sense i hear a little moral indignation in your voice and i'm not the only one. thinking about your father or

grandfather, i guess it was, and his experience with seeing these things shut down in his time. the idea of a usary rate, people think of this as finance where you have to charge a certain amount of money. is that a financial rule? really it's a moral rule. it's something that goes back, way, way back in western civilization it's in the old testament [so what i have found is that a lot of times when we're talking about payday lending, we might be talking about finances and especially people who make loans or talking about finances but people who object to them, they're making a moral statement and saying something akin to what the caller just said , to i object to these on principle and are unconscionable exploitation of people, and you're definitely not alone, caller. definitely not. host: vince from wexford pennsylvania, on the independent line is our next

caller. caller: yes, mr. doherty, you've made some pretty good points on this but a couple of things. people have to be responsible for themselves. if you're going out and signing them as a loan you're the person handling your money and you know, here again, once again, our federal government wants to overregulate something and, you know, the arrogance that the federal government knows better than, you know, its people, we end up with a situation where, you know, we'll make everything illegal. now, the other side of it is it you take these loans away from these people if you think you're going to solve the problem, you're wrong because they'll go to illegal means to get it and end up with leg breakers out there. guest: not the first time i've heard that argument.

i'm sure won't be the last. i will be curious to see whether we see a sudden outbreak of leg-breaking if these regulations were to be passed. it's so far hypothetical, there have been states that ban pay lending and was not aware of a wave of leg-breaking and say that somewhat tongue-in-cheek. but the question of what exactly happens is perhaps a bit more complicated. the one thing i throw out to the caller is when we talk about personal responsibility, there's another idea that competes with that and that's called unconshe knowability. this is something in state laws that says look, if people are really really desperate, they will do things that are not in their best interest. and the states have always taken a certain responsibility for trying to protect people in those situations. so it's not as though this is a new phenomenon. this is something -- that idea of protecting people who will

do something because they're truly desperate is not a terribly new one. host: we'll hear from tim from kansas city, kansas, as our last caller for this segment. calling on the republican line and also is a payday loan borrower as well. guest: hello, tim. host: tim, are you there? last chance for tim. all right. we don't have time. -- we don't have tim. turn down your tv. caller: somewhat of a victim of this payday loan situation. back in december of 2003, i suffered a really severe brain injury and had to get on disability and well, for about the first year, while i was waiting on my disability to be approved i got into this payday loan situation and i was just taking one to pay another to pay another and anyway, i forced myself into bankruptcy.

i did this myself. i'm not blaming anyone else. but i did this myself. and when i went through my bankruptcy, my lawyer told me that these were unsecured loans and he told me the way i had to do it was close that bank account and open a different checking account number and i claimed over -- well, almost $18,000 worth of unsecured loans that were discharged because of these payday loans. they are unsecured loans is what my lawyer told me. host: we'll have to leave it there because we're out of time. karl doherty, i'd like to give you the last word. guest: again, not the first time i've heard that kind of story, bankruptcy is often the solution for people in this situation. and we can only hope that perhaps if you can find a right balance you won't see this

quite so often. host: consumer finance reporter for bloomberg news, thanks for being here. guest: my pleasure. host: we'll be speaking with daniel raymond of the harm coalition for needle exchange programs for intravenous drug users. we'll be right back. >> hearing cory gardner say you need to be firm in your principles but flexible in the details. it really reflects the solution like the harsh polarization across our country and the methodology if all the senators if all the congressmen and men and women and state legislatures can adopt we can come together as a country and solve many of our pertinent issues. >> my favorite quote came from julie adams, the secretary of the senate. she said be nice to the people

on the way up, you'll meet them on the way down. >> we have a lack of true statesmen. as much as i may agree, senator john mccain did something very impressive last year and he committed to the veterans' affairs reform bill and reading the torture report and maintaining how staying away from torture is essential to our democracy, i think to the point we have people who are willing to cross the aisle and we are willing to make the decision with people who they may not often agree with, that's essentially with a we need to maintain the security, the integrity of our nation as we go on. >> high school students who generally rank academically in the top 1% of their states were in washington, d.c. as part of the united states senate youth program. sunday night at 8:00 eastern and pacific on c-span's q&a.

next week at k p.m. eastern, conversations with a few new members of congress. >> i knew my mom would be crying and my dad was proud and my dad is 82 years old and he showed up for it and usually walks with a cane and showed up and didn't have his cane and i said dad do i need to send someone to your hotel to get your cane? and he straightened up real stiff and says, i'm in the capitol. i don't need a cane today and he walked without his cane for the entire day. and i know they were superproud. >> five newest members of congress talk about their careers and personal lives and share insight about how things work on capitol hill. join us for all five conversations each night at 9:00 eastern on c-span. >> "washington journal" continues. host: we are joined now by daniel raymond. he is the policy director for the harm reduction coalition. he also serves on the steering

committee of the national viral hepatitis roundtable. daniel raymond joins us from san francisco. thanks for being with us this morning. guest: happy to be here. host: i know it's very early for you out there. can you talk about what the harm coalition is? i under it's a program that works around providing needle exchanges for drug users? . guest: we have been around about 20 years and grew out of the needle exchange movement as the needle exchange programs started popping up around the country in response to the aids epidemic, we came to being as a national coalition to support those programs, to provide trainings, and to do some advocacy work. so we worked on many more issues now than we did in the beginning. we work on overdose, drug treatment, all from a training capacity building and advocacy lens. host: what exactly is harm reduction, what does that term mean? guest: harm reduction is a term that affirms that we can

address the health issues associated with substance abuse at any stage of the spectrum. so whether people are early in their use, whether people are suffering from addiction, that there are strategies such as needle exchange that can help them and their communities stay healthier. host: and how does the needle exchange program work exactly? guest: the needle exchange program takes a lot of different forms but at its core, the principle is reaching out to people injecting drugs and offering to exchange needles so they have sterile syringes so they're not sharing syringes and give them other help on their medical issues and social issues and starts off as disease prevention but works as an engagement strategy to bring people in and get them connected to services and health care that will help them in their communities. host: we will be taking calls from viewers during this segment as well. we're changing up the phone

lines slightly for the next 45 minutes. those calling from the eastern and central time zones can dial us at 202-748-8001. if you're in the mountain or pacific time zone, can you call us at 202-748-8000. and if you've ever used a needle exchange program, we'd like to hear from you. call us at 202-748-8002. of course if you're on twitter @c-spanwj and on facebook and you can reach us via email @ journal.v span.org. can you give us a sense how widespread needle exchange programs are across the country? guest: we have 200 programs in half the states around the country. a lot of them are in the northeast, on the west coast and some in and around the illinois area.

so we've got about 25 years of needle exchange programs but still have lots of areas of the country that don't have anything going on. host: are you the only organization that runs these types of programs or who typically organizes them? guest: a typical program is run either by a local community based nonprofit organization or by the local health department. in some cases you have programs also that are run by community health centers or other kinds of clinics but mostly they're nonprofit grassroots groups. host: in terms of funding for these programs, does it come primarily from individual donations, from businesses, or is there any government funding of needle exchange programs? guest: limited government funding. some states and cities provide local funding but there's a federal ban that is mandated by congress, so no federal dollars are being used for needle exchange right now and that's a factor in really limiting their

growth. host: they have come in prominence with indiana starting a needle exchange program, i believe kentucky has started one as well. why are we starting to hear of these programs starting up? guest: we're hearing new programs start up because of the opiate problem. but heard of overdose and addiction but now it's coming in as infections especially like eastern indiana and kentucky. government is taking a second look that they never thought a needle exchange made sense in their communities but are saying if we have aize on -- crisis on our hands we cannot afford not to use all the tools available and we have to look at needle exchange as a strategy to keep our people healthy. host: that's the situation we've seen in indiana, late last month the indiana governor mike pence announced he'd start a limited needle exchange

program within the state to combat an h.i.v. epidemic. >> i do not support needle exchanges and but this is a public health emergency and on real estate of the centers for distress cole -- control, i'm offering a short term limited needle exchange program if local officials deem that to be necessary and appropriate. to suppress the h.i.v. epidemic. host: daniel raymond, you said there's no federal funding of needle exchange programs but we heard the indiana governor mike pence say the c.d.c. encouraged him to start this program. how do you square those two things? guest: it's a contradiction because the c.d.c. is our nation's leading public health organization and they've assessed all the science and said if you want to start -- stop the disease outbreak like the one indiana is experiencing this is how you do it. you need needle exchange to get this under control.

at the political level, a lot of politicians in congress agree with mike pence and say we're not sure about this as an anti-drug strategy because they've got concerns about what message this sends. . if you follow the evidence, you know the needle exchange programs don't increase drug use and help people get in treatment and don't encourage new people to start using drugs but some of those myths still linger and we have a situation where the politics and the science are often at odds. host: can you go into detail about what the efficacy of needle exchange programs have been shown to be? guest: we have 25 years of research on needle exchange. a lot of it has been funded by the federal government, by private foundations.

if you have a needle exchange program and start early, your h.i.v. rates among people who inject drugs stay low. if you start late you can still lower them. for example, in new york city, they've seen a 75% decline in h.i.v. among people who are injecting drugs across the city and that is over the span of about 15 years. and needle exchange programs are working and people who go to needle exchange programs are likely to get connected to drug treatment and helping people get on the pass to recovery and we've also seen studies in baltimore and other places in baltimore showing they don't increase crime and reduce discarded syringes in the community and so they're a good thing. host: brenda from flint, michigan. you're on the air with daniel raymond. caller: how are you doing? there's been a problem that goes way back in the 1970's with the needle.

and what the problem is they go and get needles like they're popping popcorn. but what we need to do, we need to get out and talk to these younger people and older people and see how the damages they have. guest: the needle exchange is not the only answer. we have to do the education and primary convention. where needle exchange comes in, some people fell through the cracks. we heard the prevention mess ups but might have a susceptibity to adick and we hear a lot that people are caught up in the opiate epidemic and started off with a sports injury and had some kind of underlying undiagnosed depression and something that made them vulnerable to opiates and got them hooked on it. we have to keep our efforts on

the prevention messages while recognizing we still rill have people calling -- have people falling through the cracks and have to do what we can to protect their health. host: can you talk more about the opiad epidemic and what types of drug use are we seeing now and how does that relate to the increase in disease? guest: we have seen a skyrocketing rate of the nonmedical use, misuse of prescription painkillers things like oxycontin, and opano and vicadin and percocet. all those are opiods, the same class of drugs as heroin and prescribed much more widely in the past 15 years under the theory that they were pharmaceutical drugs and f.d.a. approved and safe and wouldn't lead to addiction. we now know that those assumptions are false and as a result a lot of people started experimenting recreationally with opiods and we've seen a

portion of them shifting to heroin use. it's that shift that's the really dangerous moment when you're looking at overdose, hepatitis c, h.i.v., because with that comes more injection. most people don't start by shooting up, by injecting drugs and start by just taking them, swallowing them. but as their habit progresses they move towards injecting and that increases the risk dramatically. host: just a reminder you can join our conversation by calling us. we're setting up the phone lines this segment by region. if you are in the eastern /central time zone call 202-748-800 1. mountain or pacific time zone, 202-748-8000. we have a special phone line open for those who may have used a needle exchange program in the past or currently and that number is 202-748-8002. we are on twitter @c-span wj

and facebook @face book.com/v span. our caller now is from orlando, florida. call seb on the air. good morning. . caller: hello. i just wanted to talk about how i didn't support the government funding the needle exchange program and i'll tell you why. i'm a 19-year-old college student currently and i didn't receive government aid. i actually only received unsubcy subsidized loans -- unsubsidized loans from the government and you're suggesting the government should subsidize needle for heroin addicts and that's just dumb. to me that doesn't sound right. you don't think maybe that money could be used better towards college students than people on heroin? guest: i appreciate your comment and i know a lot of people out there think the same way. i think one of the things to consider is that whether or not

the government is paying for needle exchange, the question is almost -- we're going to pay as taxpayers either at the front end on prevention or on the back end in terms of the cost of treatment and health care and the medical expenses. when we have an opportunity to intervene early, it's not about subsidizing people's drug use, it's about that early intervention reaching out and pulling them back in before their addiction spirals out of control. so i do think that there's a cost-effective ness argument that a good needle exchange program can save the taxpayers $5 to $7 for every dollar spent. in that case it's not so much about paying for needle exchange as for paying for college loans and other things. it's about saving the overall taxpayer money because the toll of addiction or hepatitis c and h.i.v. is spiraling out of control. so it's a wise investment from my point of view but i hear your concern. host: next up from baltimore

maryland is michelle, who is calling someone who has used a needle exchange program in the past. michelle, go ahead. caller: hi, how are you doing? i just wanted to say that the needle exchange programs do work. i used the needle exchange program for three years. i ended up getting into treatment and today i'm an addictions counselor. i help other people get into the programs and get treatment. so it does work. it's a positive program and i do appreciate it. thank you. host: that was michelle from baltimore, maryland. guest: thank you, michelle. host: next up is cynthia from new york, new york who also has used a needle exchange program in the past and perhaps currently. cynthia? caller: no, not currently, thank you. i used it in the past. i've been on maintenance for many years now. i started as an opium addict in the 1980's and back then there were no needle exchange programs and we bought our

needles from a guy on the street and you would check it to see if it was sealed and bleeven it. i still helped up with hepc and feel very emotional with this and always get a little excited . this is just very personal to me because many of my friend have passed away. and these programs do save lives. they help you get into treatment just like you said, and they prevent the spread of h.i.v. and the hepatitis. we also here in new york city have a lot of use in our parks where children play and active addicts are in the bushes. so i've cleaned up many hundreds and hundreds of needles out of these parks. what exactly am i supposed to do with them? i take them to my needle exchange and give them to them and they safely dispose of them and no child getting a ball ever gets ahold of it. needle exchanges are wonderful. host: that was cynthia from new york new york. any thoughts or comments on the callers? guest: yeah, the callers

resonate with me in the 1990's i worked in needle exchange programs in new york and boston. the stories we heard, i saw them on a day-to-day basis. for me the experience of working in a needle exchange program was a powerful testimony to hope that we were reaching people who had often given up or been told that they were useless, worthless, that they had no chance of a normal human life. and that moment where you connect to somebody without judgment and say hey i respect you as a human being, and i'm offering you this needle but really offering hope and compassion and offering you a route to recovery. that's a transformational moment and that's really the power of needle exchange programs. we can talk about disease prevention and cost-effectiveness but at the end of the day it's that hope, that compassion and recovery that makes needle exchange so compelling to me. host: an article was published headlined, the indiana h.i.v.

crisis didn't have to happen. you are quoted in this article daniel raymond, as saying there's no medical, scientific or public health basis for a $30-day needle program and unrealistic to expect within a month you can find everyone at risk and somehow get them to stop injecting. you mentioned before a good needle exchange program can have high benefits. what makes a good needle exchange program? guest: i think what makes a good needle exchange program and we've seen this over and over again in many communities, is that you've got to be responsive to the needs of the people on the ground, specifically you've got to tailor it to your local community, both the people that you're trying to reach but also the local businesses and local law enforcement and health department. if everyone is working together and supporting this effort, you're going to be much more successful. i think also there's a level of skill and empathy that you want your staff to have. some of the best staff for needle exchange programs have

themselves used drugs know exactly what it's like and are able to establish that rapport with people and allows them to start trusting and really get help. i think those are critical concepts for any needle exchange program, that broader level of community partnership buy-in and support and that ability to build rapport and trust and really ground the experience of doing the work in the lives of people who have used drugs. host: mitchell from wilmington, delaware is calling now. mitchell, you work at a needle exchange program. caller: that's right. i work at one. everything daniel is saying right now is dead on, and a lot of your callers are dead on as well. the people that give out these needles give the water, the bleach, the cotton, the cookers, and like daniel said, they deal with the people on the ground.

it should be a nonissue at this point. plus the fact people get a card and don't have to worry about dealing with law enforcement because they have a card on them showing they are allowed to have them, not the illegal drugs but pair nail yeah -- paraphernalia and keeps people from being locked up and being in the criminal justice system just to keep it normal and allowing these people to work, you know. and they're not just on the street. host: have you seen an increase for your program? caller: absolutely. now the prescription drugs are harder to get and a whole lot more expensive.

coming up from mexico and so cheap compared to 10 or 15 years ago there's no reason for them not to get it because it's a lot easier to get and it's a lot cheaper. host: mitchell from wilmington, delaware. next up, dan, you've used a needle exchange program before, is that right? caller: yes. i was a needle user 15 years and called a functional user. i worked, i graduated with college. but when i moved from they have a needle exchange in washington but when i moved to texas they didn't have one and started reusing my own needles and was very destructive to my veins. so now i have absolutely no

veins in my hands or arms but just wanted to throw my two cents. the previous caller was spot on and thank you so much for harm reduction. host: daniel raymond, any thoughts? guest: that's what we see in all the states like texas who don't currently have laws that allow for a needle exchange program. the consequences of injecting drugs on people's health and on the medical system are enormous. people show up in emergency rooms with abscesses and it gets very costly to avoid this common sense prevention measure because there's this still a debate between the politics and the science. i think the politics are starting to catch up as we've seen in kentucky and perhaps indiana, but places like texas, there's still a lot of people who are going to needlessly suffer get infections and potentially die because they're slow to respond to their

epidemics and adapt needle exchange to their state. host: "the wall street journal" published a chart of new diagnosis of h.i.v. and reported cases of hepatitis c using data compiled from the centers for disease control and prevention that shows the increase in the rates of h.i.v. and hepc disease and infection. since 2012. i would imagine the numbers are higher since then. daniel raymond, do you have any sense of what percentage of these cases are linked to sharing needles. guest: in the case of hepatitis, the majority are. we don't have the complete data yet but know that we've had this experience with hepatitis c which is a bloodborne virus like h.i.v., less often sexually transmit sod much of the transmission is happening through shared injection equipment. and even though we have had good needle exchange programs

and made progress since the late 1980's, if felt like hepatitis c rates were going down but spiked up and skyrocketed in the last few years so between 2010 and 2012 we saw 75% increase, nearly a doubling of new hepatitis c cases and we'll be seeing more when the 2013-2014 data come out. with h.i.v., we're still seeing the huge success in preventing new h.i.v. infections to most people who inject drugs but still make up about 8% of infections and if indiana is any warning we may see rises in h.i.v. among injectors in the next few years. host: can you explain to us what hepatitis c is, what the disease does? guest: hepatitis c is a virus that infects the liver so chronic hepatitis c infection can cause chronic liver disease and lead to cirrhosis, liver cancer, people may need liver transplants. this happens over the course of decades. a lot of the news around

hepatitis c the last year has been around the successful new medications that can cure hepatitis c in as little as two to three months but the debate is these are extremely costly and can range from 80,000 to 100,000 towards course of treatment and if we're thinking about a rise in hepatitis c infections like places in northern kentucky, for example, can we really afford to treat all these infections or should we invest a much smaller amount of money in preventing them in the first place to establishing needle exchange programs? host: next on the line is tom from paradise, california. tom, go ahead, you're on the air. caller: yes, this is tom. i'm up in paradise and i'm kind of wondering, aren't feed stores -- i have two prongs to my comment. aren't feed stores readily available source of getting syringes still in the case of

livestock? and my second comment is hepatitis is also spread through mucus and saliva and can live on environmental surfaces for hours. so you can't obtain it off a doorknob or at a dental clinic office equipment. but i do believe that syringes are still available without paying for funding for public programs, all at the feed store for livestock. guest: and i've heard those stories that in some parts of the country where they have feed stores for livestock that's a source for some people. we certainly support if people can pay for them and get them at a feed store or at a pharmacy more power to them. but i think our focus with the needle exchange program, what about everybody else? what about the people who have no other way to buy syringes or the story we heard from the caller earlier about buying them on the street. we've got to break the chain of

transmission here. i think the point about hepatitis c it's much more transmissible than h.i.v. it's primarily spread through blood-to-blood contact where the syringes come in. if i use a syringe somebody else has already used and they've got hepatitis c, i'm basically introducing their blood and that virus into my bloodstream and that's why we're seeing hepatitis c rates skyrocket. not just because there's more people injecting drugs right now but the growth in people injecting drugs hasn't been matched with syringe access. so a lot of the places we're seeing these infections and outbreaks, they don't have options of going to the feed store. they don't have options of going to the pharmacy so they're getting syringes wherever they can. they have a shortage and they're sharing them and that's the point where disease transmission happens. host: now, these needle exchange programs still are quite controversial wbir.com in kentucky reports this story with the headline anti-drug rate concerned over kentucky needle exchange law and the

article quotes, dan spurlock who is a coordinator of the cumberland gap kentucky based movement, he says that hepatitis c is running rampant in eastern kentucky through heroin use so the idea behind the program is to reduce hepatitis c by getting clean needles. he feels the needle exchanges can send the wrong message on heroin use without the needles, you don't have the ability to promote the drugs like spurlock said. daniel raymond from the harm reduction coalition. what do you say to folks who argue this is nearly a -- merely a way of encouraging people to use drugs? guest: i saw that article and read that quote and sympathize with that fear because in places like kentucky or west virginia, they've got a huge heroin problem they did not have five or 10 years ago. and i think part of the calculation here, though s is that they've had issues with heroin problems before they had syringe ex-containing. it's not the syringe exchange that has not existed yet but

fueling injection and hepatitis crfers, it's the scarcity of syringes. we have to do everything in our power to get a handle on these heroin crisis in places like the appalachian region. we've got to get more prevention and treatment. in the meantime, we and -- we cannot afford to lose people because they don't have access to that early intervention a needle exchange provides that early intervention to save people from an overdose and save people from getting h.i.v. or hepatitis c or ultimately link people to care and treatment and get them on that path to recovery. so i see needle exchange programs as part of the solution and ultimately aligned with all the concerns that have been raised about what we're going to do with all these people using heroin. host: sam from spokane, washington, is up next. tim, you are a needle exchange program user o or past user. of.

caller: i'd like to thank mr. raymond for his excellent work i feel a lot of the arguments are superfluous that are against it. we also have a lot line, it's a way of calling for help if an overdose does occur or one person isn't held responsible for helping another person. if you could transport that to the higher level thinking, you may be against needle exchange but would you be will to watch a person die and not call for help? you understand what i'm talking about, mr. -- i can't remember your name but you're a saint. guest: you're talking about the good samaritan law and part of a broader realignment we're seeing in a company with the reconsideration of needle exchange programs is how are we

addressing the drug problems and is there new thinking we need. if we're seeing a lot of people overdose and if there's somebody on the scene afraid to call for help because they were concerned that the police would show up and arrest everybody, then can we pass a good samaritan law and say listen, you're a good samaritan no matter how you got into the situation, we want you to call for help. we want you to do the right thing and save a life. in the same way there's a broader recognition that the solution to the opiate heroin crisis cannot just rely on locking everybody up. we don't have enough treatment yet and have to focus on expanding our treatment capacity and harm reduction alongside focusing on prevention. so i think that good samaritan law you mentioned is one example that was also part of the package of kentucky legislation that led to needle exchange this year. about this broader realignment, more so to public health response to the opiate crisis so thank for you bringing that up. host: are there other

components of an effective drug combat program that are important to put in place in addition to the needle exchange program in the good samaritan law? guest: sure. i think we're seeing it on the federal government. at the department of health and human services, the secretary sylvia burwell released her opiate initiative last week and she said we're going to focus on three main areas, on overdose prevention by expanding access to the rescue drug naloxone which works like a epipen and if someone is overdosing it is an anecdote and want it in the hands of first responders, police, family members peers to make sure we're able to save lives as effectively as possible. she's also calling for more use of medications, assistant treatment for prescription painkillers and heroin. if you become dependent on these drugs, we want to connect you to the standard of care that we have the best evidence will work for you.

that's medication treatment for treatments like methadone or others and in short supply and need to expand access and she is also calling for work on prescriptioning guidelines. opiates are painkillers and if they're being overprescribed or misprescribed, can we get better guidelines to support the people who have chronic pain problems and needed help to make sure they don't get diverted or start people down that path towards opiate dependence and ultimately heroin. those are effective components in terms of the national strategy at the local level we need to make sure the needle exchange programs are able to provide things like hepatitis c testing and they have a good relationship with doctors in the health care system to make sure they're managing the health issues and drinking them to drug treatment and providing overdose prevention by training people on the use of naloxone.

host: mike is calling from douglas, massachusetts. mike you're on the air. caller: yes, i'd just like to talk about decriminalization, some other countries have done this already portugal, uruguay , and i don't know what the results are but maybe you could elaborate on that and also, how do we gain political will to decriminalize drugs and save money. thank you. guest: you mentioned efforts around decriminalization in portugal and a lot of people are watching that and what they're seeing is drug use has not had a significant increase but issues like h.i.v. infections with drug use have actually declined. portugal is used as an important experiment in how we manage drug policy. we're in the midst of a broader national debate now about marijuana legalization with states like colorado and

washington with washington thinking about taking the criminal aspect off the books and managing it more along the lines of things like alcohol. i think a lot of people are taking away and seeing how it plays out but there's a broader general interest across the political spectrum, conservatives, liberals alike and saying we put all our eggs in the incarceration basket. we've spent so much time and so much money locking people up and we have not moved the dial on the nation's drug problems in any significant way. it becomes an issue of squeezing the balloon. just when we get a handle on one drug we see the drug use on another substance pop up. so i think that the examples that you raised are issues of a broader reconsideration of what the former drug czar said we

are not talking about it as a war on drugs anymore but a public health crisis and police are saying we're not arresting our way out of this epidemic so how can we do things differently and divert people and provide alternative to incarceration. i think in incremental stages communities around the country might not be saying we are going to decriminalize all drugs but at the same time saying we're going to focus on it as a public elt issue and look at strategies that aren't overreliant on locking people up. host: from fwitter, smiley writes every state should have a needle exchange. heroin is becoming an epidemic in the suburbs like meth in rural areas. another commentor asks, are there other countries that have needle exchange programs? guest: thank you. many other countries have needle exchange programs. australia is a successful example of someone who started in the h.i.v. epidemic and kept

h.i.v. rates incredibly low among people who inject drugs. we see a lot of programs in europe and seeing more programs in africa essential asia, southeast asia so no matter the political dynamics of the country, we're seeing a broad embrace of needle exchange around the world. host: our next caller from greenville massachusetts. dennis is on the air. dennis, good morning. caller: how are you doing today? guest: good morning. caller: i have two quick questions, one of them is i'm a diabetic and remember reusing my needles when i had run out or they were expensive. can they help diabetics in the same way they're helping the heroin addicts? what you're doing is a very good thing. it's helping people from bad

diseases you don't want spread. and i'm not sure if you've been -- the other question would be from what i've heard greenville, massachusetts, was the highest per capita in heroin overdoses the past year in terms of deaths. do you know that or is that false or no? thank you. i'll take my call offline. guest: great. thank you. in response to your first question, in other programs i've worked with, one of the things we did is recognize there are diabetics in the community that couldn't access or afford syringes for their insulin injections and supported them and provided syringes and partly recognized because of the need but partly an issue of building goodwill in the community but at the end of the day, a syringe is a syringe and don't want anybody to have a shortage. in terms of overdose rates for massachusetts, i haven't seen the specific data for your town but know massachusetts has been struggling with an overdose issue for a long time.

they've actually been very proactive in thinking about how to get a handle on this. they've been working on expanding drug treatment and working on expanding access to noloxone and they feel they have more work to do but under the current massachusetts administration and under the previous administration, there's been a lot of strong leadership, a lot of strong community groups, fantastic advocacy from recovery organizations and parents groups, so massachusetts is -- has not by any means countried -- turned a corner on the overdose epidemic but are making all the right moves and i'm hoping they'll make further inroads and reduce their overdose rates the next couple years. host: we are going to get in a few more callers before our program ends. next up is shirley from north olmsted, ohio. go ahead. caller: yes. my question is -- host: turndown dour tv and ask the question. caller: my question is it

you're patient and have chronic pain and you have degenerative bone disease and the doctors do not want to give you pain medication because of the people adicked to the opiates and addicted to heroin, what do a person do that's old and got this arthritis and, you know they need pain medication. where do you go to get help? guest: that's a big debate in the medical community right now. i was just out in ohio last week and heard a lot of stories like that. is the pendulum swinging too far? are we making it too hard for patients in chronic pain to get access to legitimate treatment. a lot of people are saying well, maybe the answer shouldn't just be about opiods because some people that doesn't necessarily help and makes them feel better a little while but might make the issue worse. maybe we need to look at other strategies. maybe we need to look at more physical therapy. so there's a big controversy

right now in how we manage pain and part of it looks like the backlash to the opiod epidemic. is the pendulum swinging too far? that's something i hear a lot of concerns about, that patients whether they're nursing homes or in areas of the country where pharmacies are saying we're no longer filling opiod prescriptions are suffering from enormous pain and they're very frustrated by this dynamic. i don't have an easy answer to this issue but know it's a growing problem. host: song from wilmington, network, will be our last caller. shawn, can you make it brief? caller: yes, sir. mr. raymond, i want to thank you for your time and your concerns. guest: thank you. caller: have you heard anything about north carolina? guest: yeah, i have a the lo of colleagues in north carolina who are doing needle exchange working on overdose prevention a lot of great stuff happening there and a lot of challenges.

host: all right. that is daniel raymond, policy director of the harm reduction coalition joining us from san francisco where it's very early in the morning. thank you very much for being here. guest: thanks for having me. host: that concludes our show for today. join us tomorrow "washington journal" will be speaking with eric traeger from the washington institute for near east policy and he'll be speaking about the arab league's formation of a joint military force to address the crisis in yemen. we'll also be speaking with the transportation reporter for qq roll call about the white house's transportation proposal and we'll speak with darryl kimball, arms control executive director on which nations have nuclear weapons. we'll see you then. [captioning performed by the

[captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> coming up this morning from a look at u.s. preparedness for biological and chemical threats. then transportation secretary anthony foxx talks about funding for transportation projects and other priorities for his department. and later, eva administrator gina mccarthy discusses the environmental action plan and other environmental issues. >> this weekend partnering to learn about oklahoma. >> frank phillips was an auto man. phillips 66 was a