wow. what an ending. that is a great ending. >> thank you so much. >> thank you for this terrific panel. you have been wonderful. >> thank you. [applause] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2015]

>> on the next washington journal, the latest on nuclear negotiations. now that a framework deal is in place in switzerland christopher hill joins us. he served as senior director of the national security council in the clinton administration. and a look at how congress is reacting. good jobs first research director on a new report detailing which corporations benefit the most from tax credits and other financial assistance. we will also be taking your calls and look for your comments on facebook and twitter. washington journal, live every day, beginning at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> next week at 9:00 p.m.

eastern, conversations with a few new members of congress. >> i knew my mom would be crying, and my dad was proud and it was when my dad was 82 years old. usually walks with a cane. he showed up at the capital and did not have his cane. i said dad, do i need to send someone to the hotel to get your cane. he straightens up bro stefan says, i am in the capital. i don't need a cane today. >> five newest members of congress talk about their careers and personal lives and share insights about how things work on capitol hill. join us for all five conversations, each night at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. >> next, a conversation with the first lady of afghanistan. her husband assumed the presidency in september, replacing hamid karzai.

she talks about the role of women in afghanistan, growing up as a lebanese christian, and issues affecting the country. this is one hour.

>> good evening, everyone. we are here on an ash wednesday so i have not misapplied my makeup. thank you for braving the cold weather here in washington. more called will come while we are here but i hope you will be warmed by the great conversation that we put together for you tonight. i want to thank the city for providing support. we are broadcasting this live via webcast. it is my pleasure to introduce our two speakers.

most importantly, the first lady of afghanistan, rula ghani, here for the first time. she is from lebanon. she met her husband at the american university in beirut. she is quite accomplished as having earned her master's degree from columbia university and of course she is worked extensively on women's and children's issues in afghanistan. i'm sure she will be sharing those experiences with us here tonight. providing the moderation is as always, nina easton, a senior associate here at csis and also a columnist. please welcome the speakers. [applause] >> thank you all for coming. thank you for that terrific introduction.

i wanted to get one shout out to one other piece that we do. a weekly podcast. you can find it on your smartphone and it is a great way to hear women talk about pressing foreign-policy matters. thank you so much for being here. it is just truly an honor. it was delightful to get to know you over the course of these last couple of days. it is interesting because your predecessor was a doctor. a professional woman, but never seen in public. you have come in and become quite visible. and have been accused of making waves. which we like to hear. let's start with that. what is your vision for how you want to be first lady? >> first i would like to say that i'm very glad to be with all of you tonight. i hope that i will not disappoint. i would like to say a word about

mrs. karzai. she is indeed a doctor and an accomplished professional person. she happened to be in her child bearing and rearing years when her husband was president. i remember when i was in my child rearing and bearing years i did not have time for anything else. if she chose not to have a public life, i think it was her choice. i don't think she should be blamed for that. anyway, coming back to me. once i moved to the palace, i found that if i stayed at home i would be just waiting for my husband to come back. you may know that my husband is a workaholic and he will not come back until maybe quite late. i very quickly got bored.

so with his encouragement, i decided to have an office. slowly this office has grown. we now are seven women, young and old, i am the old one. [laughter] we decided to have an open door policy. basically, i see my role as a listener and facilitator. i don't have a budget. people don't come to me to get money. but they come to me to talk and share concerns. two sometimes a voice their complaints. sometimes just to let me know what they are doing. it is really wonderful, because i have had women and men, mostly women, and a lot of young

people, come and see me. maybe it was a novelty. they wanted to see who is that person who had become the first lady. that might be the reason why there are so many of you here tonight. but also to have a chance to talk about what is worrying them or what is interesting them. their hopes, misgivings. so in the first place this is , what my office does, welcome people listen to them. , in the cases where we can help, for example, picking up the phone and obtaining an appointment for them in some government agency. we do it and we have helped quite a few people. not too many, but we have made

-- >> what have you learned about the country and the state of the country in the listening tour that you are doing? we talked about the widening gap between the urban centers, for example. first thing, there are a lot of very strong women trying to better their lives. it is like a broken record, i keep saying that women are facing very difficult situations but they are facing them with a lot of resilience, a lot of strength, and with a lot of resilience.

through their talks as you mention, i realized that there is a widening gap between the urban areas and the provinces and women will come to me and say, you have forgotten us. they don't have access to medical services. they don't have access to education, let alone legal services. you see, a lot of the teachers in the provinces are men. and in many of these provinces many families will not send their children to a classroom led by a man. the solution is easy. it is to train local women to become teachers. first, elementary teachers and

then middle, then upper. and then high school. we don't need to think about university yet. but there is a need to concentrate on these women. and i worry because if the gap increases, we will be two countries. nina easton: you found some incredibly -- incredible stories of resilience among some of those women in the provinces where security is an issue. where the taliban is an issue. can you related, what i call the tea party story? first lady rula ghani: this is very inspiring. it was reported to me by a woman who came to see me, i don't know exactly where it took place, but she told me the story of a widow who had to leave her village and go to kabul to be able to make a

living for herself and her children. on one of her visits back to the village, she went to visit a cousin who is also a widow and finds out that the cousin had just been dislodged from her home. a very modest home. both she and her cousin are illiterate. they don't know how to read or write. she finds out that she is being dislodged by the newly arrived taliban. so she says, ok, i'm going to deal with it.

she takes three glasses -- you know, we drink tea glasses in the provinces, and she took a teapot with hot tea and goes there and goes into the room and greets people with the three glasses in front of three people. and starts pouring tea for them. then she sits down and starts talking with them. first it's just, you know, the the usual talk of how are you, are you fine? how are your children, my family is fine, yes. then she starts telling them very nicely that this is the house of my cousin. she is a widow and has seven children, and her husband has died seven years before. she really relies on this piece of land around the house for having some food. she plants and cultivates. and it went on for an hour, two hours. the third hour, she kept repeating the same thing.

the commander of the taliban takes the gun he had between his knees and said let's go, we will go to another house. so very calmly and very quietly, she negotiated the taliban from getting out of her house of her cousin and had her cousin reinstated in her house. that shows you, women are strong. they have their own way of doing things. they don't come barging in. they don't say, who do you think you are and where did you come from? but no, they are persistent. and they keep pushing and pushing until their voices are heard. and in this case it was heard. nina easton: i love that story. what about a more formal role for women in peace negotiations? when the taliban came in and

forced women to wear burqas, and banned girls from schools, now you have 40% of students in afghanistan are girls. there has been tremendous progress. and there is pressure from a lot of organizations and afghan women's networks to aid women at that peace table and talk about women's issues. what is your perspective on that? first lady rula ghani: i think it is not yet the time for it. i think we don't really have negotiations yet. whether or not there are women in the negotiation team, it is a moot question. yes, there have been a lot of meetings and going back and forth, going to qatar and saudi arabia. but all of this has resulted in nothing.

i think women have their roles where they are living. if you have taliban families there too, interact with their families. and often they do, because when you coexist with other people, you have to stick together. maybe there is a question of school that needs a teacher or a question, i don't know, common things when people live together, they share concerns and problems. i don't think it is time for the women to sit at the table because there is no table yet. nina easton: ok. the status of women, you talked about the entrepreneurial spirit you are seeing. there is a perception about -- misperception about women in afghanistan.

we talked about your beautiful beautiful coat and the design of that. can you talk about work -- what types of companies women are involved in? first lady rula ghani: i have had delegations of business women coming to me. these are not small businesses. i have had factory owners, women who actually lease a big tract of land and tried to cultivate vegetables on it. i have had women who traded dry nuts and carpets. of course, there also women who trade embroidery things. women are very savvy. they just need a little bit of push.

they need just a little bit of support and a little bit of encouragement. once they are given that, they perform. they get things done. i see there is maybe half of the audience is women tonight. and women know that when they put their mind to it, they really get it done, no matter what it is. whether it is at home or work. when they put their mind to it they get it done. i think i have been very, very surprised to see their savviness and what they would ask. for example, they would say as women, we are not getting good deals at the banks when we go for a loan. the banks will not give us loans without putting our whole house as collateral.

we ask for a small loan and they want the whole house. why don't they take the car? the car is still valuable. it is a reasonable thing. so, they will usually talk to me about their problems and they will tell me what is the solution. i find it so much easier to help them, because when talking to a certain agency, and we have had a couple of women like that. it is also very encouraging to see how determined they are to make it and to make it for their daughters and for their children and for their country, they are

very patriotic. nina easton: you gave a speech in oslo not long ago, said that afghan women need to reclaim their past in an islamic tradition. you cited a number of powerful women. can you talk about that? first lady rula ghani: yes. it is the luck of the fact that i left afghanistan just before the war. i left during its heyday. i lived for years there. i lived within the family of my husband. i lived with my in-laws and extended family. and i saw that the situation was and what the afghan culture really was. it is a culture that is very harmonious. of course there were problems, like any society. people lived in harmony with each other and knew what their faith was. they knew what was expected from them. there was no gap, for example between city and province. members of the family that lived in a province would come and

stay for an extended time, sometimes two weeks or three weeks. with us, we would go back and stay with them. there was a back and forth all the time. sometimes we spent weekends in our closest province. this is what i call our culture, in which women were respected. my mother-in-law, my husband's grandmother, were powerful women. and yet they were women that stayed at home. there were other members of the family that worked outside. and they were also quite respected. i never heard somebody say, she is working outside, who is she? on the contrary, we had one with a phd in history and another one

was, when the hospital was opened, she got the job, the proceedures job, of managing the hospital. from my microcosm of the family, i could tell that there was a place for women in society, and that was respected and appreciated. this is something i would like to rely on culture. i also say we would like to go to our islamic roots, because in islam, women were very

important. especially in the first few decades. nina easton: in the 20th century? first lady rula ghani: no, no, i am talking about the prophets. [laughter] the most important traders saudi -- in saudi arabia was a woman. she had caravans going to the east persian gulf. his daughter married for love. she had lots of suitors. that was an interesting notion a marriage for love. the sister, they were the ones who did fighting. they were warriors. and they really fought. what i am trying to say is that

women's place in islam is an important place. the kind of islam that is now taking place is being presented to the young generation, it is no longer that. it is not actually not -- it is not actually islam. i would not say it is a variation. it is something else. i was making a speech one day for an event that was about midwives and ob/gyn doctors.

and do you know that in islam, in the holy koran, it says there should be 30 months between the birth of children. it says this clearly, for the health of the child and the mother, i mean, ugh -- for christ's sake! [laughter] the distortion of islam, we should not accept it. we should get back to the basics and go back to the text. you mentioned queen zoraya. she was at the beginning of the 20th century. in the 1920's. she was an educated woman. she became the minister of education.

she held a cabinet position, and it seems to me that really is a person who built the foundation for educational existence that existed in afghanistan before the civil war. the education system that gave birth -- which allow people for my husband to allow university -- to arrive for university studies, when they came to the american university at beirut, they had no problem adjusting. they knew as much as the others. they had subjects they are being told to freshman. we had a wonderful education system. queen soraya insisted that people had to have education. they had masters, they were professionals, and they did a great job educating generations of afghans. this is why it are very well -read and educated. they know their history and

geography and science. thanks to this one woman. so i think afghan women are really, when they put their minds to it, they are really quite formidable. nina easton: let's talk about you, a role model. you are a lebanese christian in a pretty illustrious family. talk about what your father did. first lady rula ghani: my father came from another background that came to study in lebanon -- in france. i am french educated, by the way.

but when he came back, he proceeded to really put together the agriculture of the country. he introduced different varieties of food, new varieties of vegetables. he introduced fertilizers, insecticides, pesticides eventually he got into water treatment, he got into food industries. he was quite a pioneer. he was opposed to become the head of the fao. but my mother said, no, i am not leaving lebanon. nina easton: you studied in paris, and you talked about the uprising in 1968 having an impact on your thinking?

first lady rula ghani: the family -- the time when i left was in the middle of the first line to see what was happening. i was very young. i did not truly understand. what certainly stayed with me was that you can be an agent of change.

by seeing what was happening seeing all of these students and at the time it was nothing like the american system, you attented large classes, and down there, there would be the teacher, doing the lecture, but you pretty much had to study on your own. i think they changed the system, something stuck. nina easton: and then you worked as a journalist, you studied at columbia, journalism at columbia, how did that affect your thinking? first lady rula ghani: i love gathering information. i'm eager to understand the environment in which i am. i hear a piece of information here, a piece of information there. nina easton: it sounds like how you are approaching your situation now. first lady rula ghani: yes, this is the way i function. i like to know who are the people around me, what are the problems. it happened in all places where i have lived.

when i was here in washington, my husband was at the world bank and i joined the world bank family network, which welcomes new families, and helps them adapt to washington, d.c. and help them understand, and we would see what their needs for. at one point they needed english classes. some other points, they needed financial education. some of those coming did not know how to do a budget. they always lived in a big family and always had someone taking care of them. we had financial classes with budget first. it ran all the gamut until we had an investment club too. i do like to solve problems.

maybe it's a combination of trying to get the information and following the problems. nina easton: being raised a lebanese christian, you started down a professional path that you had small children and you ended up in afghanistan with your husband, were there cultural barriers to you there or did you fit right in? you did not convert to islam. first lady rula ghani: no, i did not. i spent four years in afghanistan as a young girl, then we went to the states. we came here for my husband's phd and ended up staying 30 years because of the civil war.

actually, it was my husband who was advised not to go back, or he would be put in prison. the four years when i came to afghanistan were very easy. lebanese and afghan culture are not very different. we eat the same food. we have the same respect for elders. we have the same way of being welcoming to guests. you know, i remember once, i had just, i don't know if i was already married because i went first, my father came to me as a fiance, and we got married in lebanon. then we went back to kabul and there was a couple that came, and they were young, maybe two or three years had been married.

she was a german and had a little boy. she was surprised i was so relaxed. she was with her mother in law. her mother-in-law was from formidable. she said, how can you manage? she said, when my mother-in-law is sitting at the table, she saying, why don't you eat from that, why don't you take that? i said, she is taking care of you, showing respect. she likes you. oh, she said, i thought i told her no. no, she should not insist. [laughter] for her it was a clash of culture. for me i knew my mother would have done the same thing back home. nina easton: or any italian

mother would do the same thing. [laughter] first lady rula ghani: indeed, indeed. nina easton: you are an afghan citizen. you were criticized by some for not being islamic during the campaign, not being in your lebanese roots. some people say the country should not have u.s. first lady. how did you deal with that? first lady rula ghani: i was born in a christian family. but i was an eastern christian which means we prayed in arabic. when you pray to god, it was pretty much the same. for me, it's not a difference whether i am muslim or christian.

for all the indications that come to see me, it has never been an issue. they are happy that i am there that i'm opening my doors to them, listening to what they have to say. and that maybe i will be able to help them. nina easton: it seems like that works well. you have a caretaker gene. when you came back to afghanistan, you got involved in [indiscernible] can you describe that? first lady rula ghani: yes, it was a school that was started to take care of the children who work on the streets. i have always liked that organization. the children are ones that pay the price of civil war. they find themselves either with no parents or parents that have been debilitated or are not able to work, and they are the ones

who have to earn a living for the family. and so i have tried to help it as much as i could. basically, whenever we had the dinner at home and there were some foreigners, i would tell them about it. often some of them would come and visit and make a donation. little by little we created a foundation here in the united states, so that american supporters could benefit from the 501(c) tax deduction, and yet help an institution that they really liked. this is what the organization is. nina easton: i have heard about it for years from trish silverman, who is here, and partly responsible for you being

here, so thank you, trish. first lady rula ghani: mary jo meyer, the head of the foundation, is sitting right there too. nina easton: welcome. i love how you are very outspoken about a lot of things. in your speech you made the point that international aid has created a culture of dependency in the country. how would you go about tackling that? first lady rula ghani: what i mean by that is that humanitarian assistance is wonderful, but it is short-lived. and it does not change the situation.

bringing food, bringing blankets, bringing tents bringing floor covers, all of that is wonderful for people who really need it, but you come back the next year and there are even more people are there. i don't think humanitarian assistance is the answer. and especially, don't send clothes. kabul has a whole market of secondhand clothes. [laughter] why are these people in camps? the are usually internally displaced people, displaced may be because of the civil war where they are. they may have been displaced because some warlord decided to take away their land. they may have been displaced because there is a flood or a landslide. the problem, i mean, the solution to this problem is not

to bring them every year well-known russian rations of fries, flour, sugar, cooking oil, two blankets, and one tarp. it does not solve the problem. basically, what i would like from the agencies, the international aid people, is to stop thinking in terms of humanitarian assistance and start thinking in terms of development. and developing institutions needs training people. it's very easy to come and help and say, i'm going to show you how it's done. no, it's like -- i was at a dinner recently and they were

talking about how the afghans are at the wheel, and we are having our hands on the wheel also. i said, no, take off your hands from the wheel. let them drive as if it were a driving school car, and you have the emergency brake next you. but let them drive. let them learn to drive. as long as you have the hands of the wheel, they will not learn how to drive. you will leave and everything will fall apart. train people to be in charge. let them make mistakes. people learn from their mistakes. they are not going to learn by seeing you do things. this is how i'm trying to tackle it. i'm not really quite sure how i'm going to do it, though. nina easton: are there models you would cite as that is the way to do it? first lady rula ghani: not that i know of. i'm sure there are. i'm sure my husband knows, and i rely on him. nina easton: one of your other frustrations is that afghans who

go tthe west to become educated, to go to university, and then don't want to come back. you want to talk about that more, you told me. first lady rula ghani: yes. yes. there has been quite a few young people who have had scholarships to come and study. in the united states there are 300 of them this year, altogether. it has started several years back. so there has been quite a few. there is a tendency for them not to want to come back to afghanistan. and here i would like to say, i don't know if there are some here in the audience, but please, remember, this money was given to you not because of your beautiful eyes. it was given to you because you are going to go back to your country and help rebuild your country.

so, at least you spent two years here, go spend two years back in kabul. then you want to come back to the states, well and good, but you have at least to repay all this money that has been spent on you. somebody mentioned that i should say, the amount that was spent on you, this is the amount you should repay if you want to stay in the states. i think this might be a little too harsh, but ever it comes to that, that is what i will advise to do. people should feel that they have to come back and help the country. how is a country going to grow if the people that retrain and send to the best universities here decide, i would rather stay here? nina easton: i am going to ask

one more question and then we are going to open this up to audience questions. it needs to be a short question. it has to end with a question mark and not be getting on a soap box. i have heard you say in number of times that you are frustrated with the coverage of afghanistan and the image portray in the -- portrayed in the western media. tell us, what is the real afghanistan we are missing? first lady rula ghani: you have to understand, foreign ngo's and agencies need to justify why they are working in afghanistan. so they need to say that the sky , is falling.

they need to say the situation is terrible, it is horrible, because otherwise, they will not be able to raise the funds they need to function there. somehow, this has gotten to the journalists. and i think it's laziness on the part of the journalists. they just need to go around and see for themselves. i've read somewhere that afghanistan is the worst country for a girl to be born in. hogwash. it's not true. there are difficult situations there are difficult challenges but still, you can have a good life in afghanistan. we need to work for it, we need to improve it, and there is a lot of room for improvement, but it's a beautiful country and a beautiful people. what i resist is when i see an article that tries to say

everything is going wrong in afghanistan, the economy is falling apart, oh, you know, security, there is no security in afghanistan. 34 million people live in afghanistan. maybe i don't know the number of people being killed and it's really too much, every, every life counts, but it's probably less than the number of people who get killed on the roads here in the united states. so let's keep a relative view let's be a little bit more upbeat about this country. it is a new administration. there are real hopes. maybe these things are going to

be tackled little better. let's be hopeful, let's be positive. i think afghanistan is going to be a beautiful country, and i hope all of you will be able to one day come and visit it. [applause] nina easton: where are the mics? right here in the front. tell us about yourself? .

nadia: my name is nadia, good evening. i came to the united states through the initiate teach afghan women program. i'm very happy. it is a wonderful time for me to be here today. i will never forget today. the first thing i would like to say -- nina easton: we will ask a question. we have a short period of time. >> students who don't go to -- nadia: students who don't go to afghanistan, they are working here. they are working for the country, for their women. we would love to go back and will go back, but we want the security to protect us trade we need protection and security. nina easton: do you want to respond to that? first lady rula ghani: yes. i know situation is probably not ideal for girls who want to work in afghanistan, but it's getting much better. if you want to change the situation, you have to be part of it, right, that's how i think. but thank you for trying to do something from here anyway. i have been talking to people at the embassy, and maybe by the

end of the academic year, we try to have like a job fair for you know what kind of jobs are available in afghanistan, and connect people with qualifications with jobs that would be appropriate. nina easton: other questions? right here? margaret: hi, my name is margaret rogers. i'm proud to be on the board of the foundation. i have also worked in afghanistan. my question is about the taliban. you started out saying there was not much progress with regard to the peace talks. as somebody who has lived there

in a taliban-dominated province, are their prospects for a more peaceful country given the strength of the taliban? first lady rula ghani: i don't think i say something that you don't know, but the first priority of my husband is to bring security to afghanistan. i have a lot of confidence in him. i think he knows how to think outside the box and how to figure out how to solve problems. he is a problem solver, too. i hope that eventually the situation will get much better. nina easton: any specifics moving forward that you want to reveal? first lady rula ghani: no. we don't have each other in each other's pockets. nina easton: back here. guest: thank you. what is your opinion of kurdish female freedom fighters? first lady rula ghani: i'm very

proud of them. [applause] first lady rula ghani: they are taking part in defending their country, and i think they're doing very well. we do have females in the afghan army. i met the ones in the academy, all 36 of them. they made me feel great proud to have them with me. i hope they will be able to one day defend their country too. nina easton: where are the mics? are the mics nearby here? oh, right next to you/ . elise: my name is elise hampton. i want to thank you for taking the time to come out this evening. my question is very simple. nina easton: can you speak louder?

elise: sure. if you could prioritize three things in order that afghanistan needs, what would they be? first lady rula ghani: four afghanistan? -- for afghanistan? elise: yes. first lady rula ghani: the first thing is security. the second thing is greater order and the way the country is being managed. so better management of the country. the third thing, i don't know. i feel once there would be security and once the country -- the mechanisms of governing the country are in place, people will find, each person will find what do they want to do, and they will take part in building their own country. i don't think afghans need to be

told that they should be proud of their country, that they should serve their country. they have it. it is innate in them, but the circumstances were not provided. nina easton: righ there. major mike mirren: thank you. i'm with the u.s. army. i will be deployed to afghanistan in june for a program. what advice would you give to me? [laughter] i will be working with the ministry of interior or ministry of defense. what kind of advice would you give me when i am advising an afghan? thank you, ma'am. first lady rula ghani: thank you for your service. either in the ministry of interior or the ministry of defense? is that what you are saying? ok.

try to help bring order to both ministries. [laughter] first lady rula ghani: and if you see corruption, do not look the other way. i think often foreign advisers see corruption and are worried to step on people's toes. and particularly, in those two ministries, if you can enforce the respective women, because unfortunately, it does not exist in those ministries. nina easton: we did not touch on that much corruption. do you see that getting better? first lady rula ghani: yes. i think people are more wary of engaging in corruption. i'll tell you an anecdote, i do

not know whether it is true or not, but i heard it when my husband became president, there was a whole list of people maybe 60 names of people who wished to become ministers. the minute they found out my husband was going to be president, they withdrew. [laughter] first lady rula ghani: so, i think, it does not mean there is no corruption anymore. no, there is, it's systemic. what my husband is planning to do is to deal with it by building systems that will make it less possible for people to be corrupt. nina easton: we have time for one more. right here? guest: i just wanted to assess question on behalf of all of the -- nina easton: can you talk slower and louder?

guest: sure, i wanted to ask this question on behalf of all the afghans in the west, the youth. what can we do to help rebuild afghanistan? what do you personally believe what areas should we focus on? nina easton: she wants to come back. tell her where to go. first lady rula ghani: i think it would be good at first it come for a short trip. then you can see. we have talked about organizing activities in the summer for young people who want to come back and try and have -- because, you know, i do not know how much -- it is a personal choice. i don't want to impose on anyone to decide to stay here or to decide for them to go to afghanistan. come and see. this is something we have been thinking. i'm looking at my chief of staff here. we've been talking about

creating programs for young people in the summer. so they would come and get reacquainted with what, i tell y ou, from the same family, you have one child who falls in love with kabul, and the other one says, i cannot wait to go back. it will not reflect badly on anyone if ever they do not want to stay. if you come and love it, then you will find -- nina easton: are their sectors that need young talent like teaching or engineering? are there things that stand out in your mind? first lady rula ghani: there certainly must be. i do not know. but because my children are older, so i don't move in circles of very young people. but i think there might be