of a possible agreement on the iranian nuclear program? specifically to what extent the saudi counterpart of a nuclear program can appear, and where will it go? and on a separate note, in terms of the yemen scenario, to what extent do you think they affect shipping of oil around the peninsula and to the red sea? thank you. we've got education and job risk. toni you want to start? >> well, first, i think there's no question you have a king who is a proven and very competent person. but i'm not quite sure and i think we all need to worry about is saudi arabia isn't the only problem in leadership.

you look around and you have obvious uncertainties. there are fewer questions but the saudis are concerned. you don't have a stable leadership in iraq. in terms of actual coverage problems in kuwait and bahrain.

i get worried about the idea of continuity here. i get worried about how well the kingdom can deal with a king and new foreign minister minister, but i have concerned. >> on the job sight looking at the five year plan data and the budget plan data, they're not making progress and it is critical. women are a key aspect of a productive labor force when

they're more than half the population. there is amazing lack of correlation between education and job creation. education for jobs when the economy is creating them is very valuable. education for the sake of education has almost no historical impact in moving countries toward development. and this is not popular but it is unfortunately where nobody trots out numbers to contradict it and the kingdom has to face this. just to go back to the saudi

issue, every conversation i have with people who are involve in defense, intelligence and foreign affairs do not see this nuclear agreement as having any positive effect. now some of the more recent meetings may or may not have helped to deal with that. but i also when i talked to them am reminded yes the nuclear issue has a very high profile. a lot of it is driven by our

focus on proliferation, the politics of u.s. and israeli relationships by the history of some very key figures like turkey as supporters of arms control. but when you go to a different level, the focus is on asymmetric warfare capabilities and and missiles. as seen from an iranian viewpoint they don't see themselves as a successful stable military power in other ways. they realize a hell of a lot of their air force is stuff they were buying when i was serving in iran and that was for obvious reasons, the early to mid 1970's. their ships, their surface to air missiles are obsolete by the

standards. this has reason to be concerned and then you look at the rising level of shiite-sunni tension which is only partly related to groups like isis and serious problems within the kingdom, some of which i think they have perhaps been too strict about dealing with in terms of the way they create their shiites. but these problems aren't going away and aren't going to be solved by the nuclear agreement. when i look at that agreement i think from what i have seen of the tentative structure i would certainly support t but it's not going to control the iranian nuclear capability. there are a whole lot of hosts of things of things. the practical problem, however,

is if you buy reacters and you get yourself into a fuel cycle and you then have to create the capability to actually develop and produce a reliable nuclear weapon that is safe to put on a delivery system, if there's no resemblance whatsoever to the kind of nonsense i see coming out of think tanks and washington which is based on an idea all you need is enough material you and have a successful bomb, as a collective intellectual community we deserve an f minus for the qualitity of various analysis in dealing with this issue. and it's going to be a major problem for the gulf states. what are the options?

people are like, if the iranians have a fuel cycle then we have to. i would not hold my breath. they have missiles as you know a strategic missile force but not a force they have a technical background to adapt. and the operators seem to have a fairly heavy chinese presence. there is no other arab country. there is only one clear place and that is pakistan. whether pakistan would sell missiles and nuclear weapons i

don't know. they will have significant overcapacity in the production of material relative to the nuclear weapons material fairly quickly so there is that potential and it would be a dangerous game changer and it is something which could present us a crisis if this nuclear agreement doesn't take place or if it's cheated on. all of which is something we may or may not discover in the next month or so. >> we just have a couple minutes left frank. i wanted to give you and françois to get a word. >> if i go back to it, we did something yesterday called hiding in plain sight. some times you see things you're

looking for something and you miss something else. there's an old joke about a watchman and guard at the gates of an establishment a factory and watching a man come out with a wheelbarrow full of straw and looks under the straw and he's suspicious suspicious. he knows there is something under it. he watches day after day and checks something under the straw and nothing is hidden. finally, he interrogates the guy and says, what'ses he doing here? what are you hiding? i know you're taking something. and the guy finally admits he's stealing wheelbarrows. not watching wheelbarrows and looking at the straw you can miss what he's doing. i'm a product of one of the best things the u.s. senate ever did. i got into global affairs.

maybe some are doing poetry and humanities. many are getting mbas and science and medicine and all of that is important. but what's really important, what's the wheelbarrow is living for four years when you're in your 20s among americans and seeing how americans think. for example, they're not going

to school necessarily to get a job in the government. in egypt they crank out half a million graduate as year who are expecting to go to get government jobs. most americans who go to go to school aren't expecting to get government jobs. they're starting businesses and there's a whole different array the way americans think about work, education and gender rolls and participation it's transformative. so i found when foreigners come back, it doesn't matter what they study they come changed. that's what i get to.

the role of religion, they're not necessarily getting the most important stuff from inside the classroom. so i don't know. i don't mean to paint any picture and say all these trends aren't real. they are. but there is stuff that's hiding in plain sight i'd like to get at too and i think that's where the business opportunity also lies. not that long ago they were trying to establish it. the first visit of the king when he became king was to iran. and there was a lot of talk at the time that things should be improving. and i'm not overly concerned -- i am concerned of course but the terrible things that are happening between sunni and shia

shia. if the situation overall calms down there a little bit things will start improving. my i think we can see the same things developing in saudi rbi i can't. i'm not so concerned about that because i think from a political standpoint can be used or not used depending on that ghost. just last note on the ministry of foreign affairs and somebody mentioned it's so important it

see him as a non-royal. i think the minister of foreign affairs i think g the quality means they can build the ministry and have somebody who can write and study and survey for the government to make decisions. until then they didn't have that. but i think that is going to be the most difficult thing to create a real ministry with real people who can provide real information. thank you for listening. >> we'll talk to death penalty executive director robert done

dunham about getting rid of the death penalty and democratic consultant liz chatterton and ford o'connell. this weekend we're live at book expo america in new york city. in the beginning of june we're live for the "chicago tribune" litfest including our three hour live in-depth program and you're phone calls. near the end of june watch for the roosevelt reading festival. in the middle of july we're live at the harlem book fair literary event with panel discussion. and at the beginning of september we're live from the

nation's capital celebrating its 15th year panelists discussed programs aimed at going to college and succeeding there and socio economic factors on educational achievement. this is 4.5 hours.achievement. this is >> i'm calling it back into order. this is day two of the civil rights briefing on completion rates on the socioeconomic ability on minorities. i'm chair of the u.s. commission on civil rights and today is may

29 and we called this to order at 9:00 a.m. eastern time. as i said today's briefing continues yesterday's panel which we held for a bulk of the day talking about these issues of persistence and impact it may have on minorities mobility. it will feature 17 distinguished speakers and all of them will provide us with view points on this topic. we divided it into four panels. the first one will be discussing pertinent programs. panel two will consist of the university system heads and we'll share their experience and perspectives and the last two panels will give us view points from various scholars.

before we proceed with the housekeeping with how we'll run these panels we want to give our commissioner commissioner an opportunity to share a few words. it was her efforts that resulted in today's and yesterday's briefings. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i appreciate the courtesy. the promise of today's exploration and yesterdays as well is as follows: access to and detainment of the back lore yacht degree is key in today's national economy. attainment has significant benefit for workers and communities and national economy and international

competitiveness. it is a social, political and economic good. and yet there are racial disparities and gabs in persistence and attainment of the back lore yacht degree on the basis of race that need to be examined and are being by this commission. sometimes the operations of those programs end up having a different effect than perhaps was intended. in particular many of the

campus-based aid programs at least seemed to contribute to the racial disparities that they were designed to address positively and addressing them at least in some negative ways or at least the evidence appears to be the case and that's part of what we are exploring as the united states civil rights commission. on the other hand, there are many successful programs that federal dollars also support that help address the gap the achievement including such programs as gear-up and trio and other campus specific-programs which chancellors and presidents will be testifying to the ethicacy of. perhaps additional investment in those programs might be an

important way to address some of the racial disparities that are obvious by virtue of examining the statistics. as a nation we're underperforming in terms of achieving the baccalaureate degree for the jobs that are currently available and that will be available for the workforce in the next ten years and in the ten years after that, so we're underperforming in the aggregate right now and we're underperforming with regard to particular demographic groups including some minorities. it is possible at least my contention that it might be possible through the redeployment of federal investment, even utilizing differently the resources that

are currently being deployed let alone seeking the deployment of additional resources. even if we were not to do that but to encourage the congress to consider redeploying existing resources and deploying them more strategically and the racial groups lagging behind, it could indeed be the case we could begin to address some of those persistent racial gaps. i believe that that could be possible. and it will be the job of the commission to determine whether or not those theories hold water. this is a pressing issue of our time and i am delighted that my colleagues on this commission have seen fit to allow the commission to address this important issue. so i thank you for the courtesy, mr. chairman. >> thank you and i also want to thank the commissioner and her

staff for the effort but also our commission staff for putting together the briefing today and yesterday. it is not often we do a two-day briefing so it takes additional effort to coordinate this so we're appreciative for their effort. in preparing for these hearings and through the course of yesterday's testimony, what we're doing here is really -- hits close to home for a lot of us on this panel and many of us who testified yesterday in terms of us being first generation college students. many of us being the first in our family to graduate from high school such as myself. i'm the product of headstart and affirmative action and higher education. so these programs aren't constitutional theory, these are the kinds of programs that resulted in me sitting before you as the first latino chairman of the u.s. commission on civil rights and there are many points in my education as in the trajectory of the students

highlighted in the testimony that i could have fallen between the cracks or been pushed despite the fact that i was an honor student in high school. a private high school that my parents paid. and my high school counselor said i should not apply to college. i should be in the steel mills where my father and uncle and i insisted on going to college. she didn't fill out my applications. my parents didn't know what fasa was. it's not just something endemic to the neighborhood i grew up with but i shared the story with others and elsewhere in groups of large latino community leaders and that is a common experience for many of us. and i know it's shared by other

communities of color. one of our panelists yesterday, same thing happened to him in his high school experience. these are real issues that effect real lives so. i'm really glad we're looking at these because they impact the future of individuals and communities in this country. so we thank you for being here and the efforts everyone is putting in it on behalf of this issue. our panelist today as the panelist yesterday will have seven minutes to present to us based on their prior written sub missions and there is a system of warning lights just like traffic light. green, go. yellow means getting ready to stop. you'll have two minutes. and red of course stop. we'll ask you questions and there will be a chance to elaborate things that you were in mid sentence on and our commissioners will try to fairly provide them an opportunity to speak with you because we want to elicit as much information as

possible. we want to know that the record of the briefing will be open for the next 30 days. they have the opportunity to present your own comments so we can review those as we prepare our report to the president and congress. so you can submit them to us, by mailing them of commission 1331 pennsylvania avenue northwest, suite 1150, washington 20245. or e-mail. with that out of the way i'd like to introduce and then swear our panelists in. the first panelist is from vanderbilt university. our second panelist is from the

u.s. department of education and our third panelist is with the u.s. department of education. will you each raise your right hand please. i'll ask that you swear or affirm the information that you're about to provide is true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief. correct? >> thank you. >> thank you. i will draw an evidence-based example from the most rigorous studies over the last two deck tkaeudz including work my colleagues and i conducted where we utilize national as well as kindergarten through 20 administrative databases. strong data are critical to civil rights as well as the solutions we construct to improve educational equity in the u.s. for all students. i argue that college completion and other factors as secondary

school context and financial aid also play a role in the odds of college success. we find that nearly 60% of the racial gap can be explained by pre college characteristics. that is before the student ever another 35% of the gap in college completion is explained by post secondary or touristic. every state schooling the does not give students an equal opportunity has civil rights opportunities. giving post secondary study equality is the civil rights battle of our time. not being appropriately prepared to succeed in college is costly. it is for local and state economies, as well as the

nation. they include demographic changes in their school, continue segregation levels, academic preparation, and the factors that predict the college completion gap. we end with the role of data on understanding where the obstacles are most challenging. the timer is not on. >> is not? >> i will continue. more time. let it begin with .1. we cannot neglect we are in a time of change. the majority of our students are now non-white. the cost of failing to prepare this population to earn a credential has become a matter of state and economic welfare. five states now have

majority-minority populations. latinos are now the largest ovulation and colleges. let me be clear on what this trend does and does not represent. demographic growth means there are more students, thatnot not that we have been more eligible or successful and placing them. as demographic growth is really masking the underperformance of schools. our work in texas finds that latino high school graduates are more likely to enter the workforce and to begin at a community college. this is regardless of academic preparation. next point associated with race among students at four-year colleges, our analysis finds that 48% of hispanics are

economically disadvantage as compared to 5% of whites. racial segregation continues to have harmful effects on key student outcomes. racial segregation is a key factor in the achievement gap as measured by test scores. our research further suggests that segregation in high school also has a negative effect on college completion. students have different rates of participation by race and ethnic background which is associated with the odds of college completion. let me be clear. academic preparation remains the most important factor in predicting completion. students of all racial groups do not receive the same preparation, particularly in math. trigonometry is a gateway course for completion. our work found that black students are less likely than

white or latinos to have taken a trigonometry course. that rate is 70% for white 47% for black students. some other gaps remain for courses in dual enrollment programs. college costs and financial aid continue to matter as gatekeepers to enrollment and completion. they matter by race and income. more than 30 years of research indicates that financial aid discounts scholarships positively impact enrollment. it is a contested issue, in the form of preferences to fund the students that are less likely to need -- we have seen a trend and increase in merit aid. location of colleges is important for minorities. in terms of where black students

are increasingly going to college, that is community college. before, we saw trends with black students surpassing latino students attending four-year colleges, they are now likely to attend two-year colleges. for latinos, no other institutions represent their attendance. yet we have only minimal evaluation evidence on how well the hsis are doing. that is where they are more likely to go to college. there is substantial college situation gap. the gap in texas is 14 points. between white and black's is 21 points. for the hispanic whites, there are two key factors. attending a high minority high school and he economic

disadvantage. the most critical factor with this group remains academic preparation. commissioners, improving civil rights outcomes for all students requires strong evidence in the form of longitudinal data sources to produce the most successful and information. dismantling efforts for data is likely to lead to under research with implications for all students in the nation. we cannot afford to formulate responsible education policy without strong data systems and research designs. finally, the demographic changes highlighted here bring to write civil rights issues in education as related to immigrant and english language

learners. understanding these implications are article for district in the southwest and increasingly the southeast. her schools have seen an influx of students with no comparable increase of students and teachers. i'm happy to answer questions. >> good morning. i would like to begin with a brief description of what we do at the national center for education statistics. i say this because i think it has applications for your work here on the commission. and for the work of all people that are concerned with civil rights issues. the first federal department of education was established in 1867. i quote, for the purpose of

collecting statistics and facts that shall show the condition of education in several states. congress has legislated several mandates one that might be of particular interest to you, we are to conduct activity to collect data that are impartial and complete. in addition, congress has required us to play a critical role in partnering with other agencies and departments in the federal government to strengthen and to improve data quality and access. you notice our role in gathering data from our brother's keeper. we are now administering the data collection for the office of civil rights within the department of education. many of the demographics that you see here are inter-related.

poverty, education, and other factors are linked to system and adequacy issues. as you well know. it is important to know that unless i otherwise state, the outcomes and measures i talk about briefly today do not account for interrelated factors. data from another report surveys and assessments supports the model that is shown here. in this presentation, i will explore a few checkpoints along the pathway of post secondary attainment. they include enrollment, access, and completion. let us start with achievement gaps. as one of the first access indicators here. achievement gaps for minorities

and low students start early in the process. >> your microphone just went off. >> thank you. let's begin with a look at some of the key trends and academic achievement gaps. we are looking at gaps between white and black students. historically, black, hispanic, and american indian students have lower assessment scores in reading and mathematics than their white and asian ears. there are two pieces of good news in the data we see here. these data depict over time, eighth-grade students, what you see here is that the performance is improving for both groups. the distance between the performance of the groups, also known as the gap, is narrowing. that is good news.

the sharp displays of the gap is also true for whites and hispanics. also true for native americans and whites and there has been a truly significant increase for asian students. i want to skip this next graph in the interest of time. we look at curriculum levels related to mathematic achievements with an ethnic groups. graduate students completed a rigorous curriculum as a national assessment for progress. these graduates completed lower curricula. a vigorous curriculum includes four years of english, three years of foreign language, three years of social studies, and three years of science -- biology, chemistry, and physics. a complaetion did not

eliminate the gaps as you see here. the average for for black and hispanic students was lower than the average for white and asian students. this is not of course due to race, there are many other confounding factors -- such as the disproportionate representation of social economic status among minority students and the rigor of the courses they are taking. not just the titles are. this slide to fix gaps in the level of density in the school. advanced science courses refers to those beyond introductory biology, chemistry, and physics. as well as ap and ib. density refers to the number within a school. the numbers are larger for

school higher density. as you can see here, there are differences and by parent education. 12 grade students at or above proficient at math and reading. solid mastery over a challenging subject matter, on average for 12 graders in mathematics between 26% of the students in this country are at or above e proficient. here you can see the rates are different for students that are being placed in juvenile facilities am a particular true for males. particularly true for minority males. in general disparities between enrollment and persistence -- those patterns are complex. this next slide here, you see

that trends in college enrollment have increased for all races and ethnicities and this is particularly true for hispanics. persistence is important. as you can see here, there are a number of factors that we rate for persistence. for example, whether the student has taken a credit of courses and not gone back. incurring additional costs, and so forth. finally, attainment patterns resemble some of the patterns already discussed that show on this last line here. overall, a lower percentage of minorities attain a bachelor's or higher. there are differences in a time attainment. in sum progress has been

made across the metrics that i have discussed today. clearly, there are many challenges here. we need to improve our measures for example, the eligibility of free and reduced price lunch has been used as a proxy for family income. but there is a new provision in the allocation of eligibility that is put a wrinkle in the use of student ses. digital data collection is also a challenge. i will stop there, if there are additional questions, i will be happy to answer. >> very interesting. mr. minor? >> i want to thank you for the invitation to speak this morning. i am here on the half of the

u.s. department of education office of postsecondary education, which administers programs designed to improve and expand access for students from low income families and complete college. which has significant contributions to our nation. under the act of 1965, as amended the department awards more than 4000 awards each year -- totaling over $2 billion annually. presently, the higher education program has approximately $7.5 billion in grants -- intended primarily to strengthen the capacity of institutions to serve students more effectively. no other institution or agency in the private or nonprofit sector comes close to making that kind of investment in college access or institutional

capacity annually. the office of post secondary education designed to support minorities and institutions, including historically black colleges, hispanic institutions, tribal colleges, native american non-tribal, and native hawaiian institutions, asian americans and native american, and pacific islander institutions as well as historically black graduate institutions. these programs support improvements in quality management, fiscal stability and are intended to strengthen institutions that serve large numbers of minority students, while maintaining low student expenditures. these programs represent a mixture of competitive and are funded through an appropriations bill. in 2015, more than $775 million

was appropriated. minority serving institutions that these support have traditionally been underreported and underfunded. they rely on instruction and renovation of facilities, purchase of materials, and even endowment tilting. as of 2012, these institutions and rollsns enrolled students. 50% of latino students, despite only being 4% of all colleges. more than 50% of students at minority serving institutions received pel grantsl. half of all students at minority serving institutions are first-generation college students, versus 35% of those at majority institutions. as you have heard this morning community colleges have a

particularly important role to play in providing education and opportunities to minorities. approximately half of all hispanic students enrolled in post secondary education attended two-year institutions, as do one third of african-americans. affordability and open enrollment policies are cited as key reasons why community colleges are likely to be more appealing to students from low income backgrounds or those may be less prepared for higher education. the office of postsecondary education serves low income first-generation students and there is points in the educational pipeline, from middle school all the way through graduate school. you may be familiar with some of these programs, talent search and upper bound. educational opportunity centers while these programs do not explicitly target minority students, many participants in the trio program are underrepresented.

based on 2013 data, the percentage of african-americans range from anywhere to 29% to 38%. for that same reporting year, the percentage of trio participants who were hispanic range to 30% in the ronald mcnair post baccalaureate program. many trio programs are hosted at minority serving institutions, including historically black colleges. predominantly black institutions, hispanic serving institutions, and agencies. tribal colleges and travel agencies. congress has appropriated close to $850 million for trio programs in 2015. also in the office portfolio is gaining early awareness and

readiness for undergraduate programs, which provides funding's to state at high poverty middle schools and high schools. the projects provide services like tutoring, ensuring development of rigorous curricula, fostering family involvement, raising awareness of admission and aid processes. like trio, era is not targeted specifically to minorities, but serves many as a result. 2015, congress appropriated nearly $302 million for era. the department believes these programs are critical for improving and increasing the number of americans not only enter college but also complete. as recent as 1990, america was number in the world -- number one in the world. according to some estimates, we are now 11.

the president has been clear about these goals to once again lead the world and having the highest credentials. in order to achieve this goal, we must dramatically increase degree attainment from 40% to 60% -- we need to produce 10 million additional degrees over and beyond the projections. this will require three and a half million more graduates. adult learners to become graduates. if the nation makes significant progress, we must create innovative opportunities and provide diverse pathways for earning a postsecondary credential. we must pay particular attention to the groups who struggle most to earn a degree. increasing completion rates will bear particular relevance for minority students. i want to conclude by mentioning

that the department's programs are paying close attention to interventions that guarantees -- whether those are successful. and increase the sense of rigorous standards advocates seeking to obtain funds, as well as higher expectations for the evaluations that will produce. we believe these inquiries will enhance the success and provide important information that can be used. in closing, i thank you for allowing me to speak today. on a critically important topic. thank you. >> would you like to open the questioning? >> thank you, mr. chairman. this is for professor florez and dr. minor.

you said that precollege characteristics, levels of poverty, segregation, course selection, loss of education location of the college campus all of these way extremely heavily on whether or not we can predict access, success, and completion. did i understand that? is it a fair -- and yet, we also see large success happening through campus

based programs. as a result of federal investments in such programs that is delineated by dr. minor mainly trio and era. there are many others. how do you explain those two their evils. variables. >> the work in terms of where we begin our analysis is in high school. we talk about campus-based programs we're talking about students already enrolled in colleges. the students that made it, that show success. we track the students back into high school and earlier if possible.

i think that is where you see the disconnect. not to say that campus-based programs to not be successful, we're talking about students already enrolled in college. our research covers the students that don't make it. >> that is an important clarification. it has enhanced my understanding of what the statistics tell us. dr. minor, you mentioned the critical nature of these programs. that your office administers. can you talk about the measurement that suggests to you that these programs are operating as intended? you also mentioned that they were underfunded. what does that mean? dr. minor: as the office that administers the majority of grant programs that are provided

to higher education institutions, i have not met a constituent yet who would not claim -- but we know some of that is measured against need. what institutional leaders often report to us not only the numbers of students there serving, the number of students they are not able to serve because of resources. we know that there is a tremendous need across the country, even giving the size of the scope of thedepartment is making, there are hundreds of thousands of students not being served. >> you mentioned $302 million. that is an awfully modest amount one would think, as compared to the numbers of students who might benefit from such a

program. is that your testimony? dr. minor: that is an argument that can be made. we are serving approximately 1.3 million students across the country. again, if you balance that against the number of students who need to be made. >> these are students who are already in the case of the trio programs have already been admitted to universities. dr. minor: some of them. the range of programs start to serve students as early as middle school. they serve students through their time in college and university and evening graduate and postbaccalaureate programs. >> these are students who have already indicated through performance that they have some academic merit that would suggest they're potential

college material. dr. minor: it is based on household income, primarily. no, it is not true. they are intended to increase the number of students who would be the first in her family to attend college -- to actually encourage and provide resources to them that would increase the likelihood that they would transition from k-12 to post secondary institutions. >> does your office also administer or have information regarding scog? dr. minor: yes, we do. but i would be careful to tie that program to the performance

to the ones we discussed this morning. >> why is that? dr.because it is a congressionally mandated formula? dr. minor: in part. the performance is determined by reports submitted by program directors. it is true, but they are very distinct. they are very distinct funds and programs. >> understood. we heard testimony yesterday from a number of experts that and we will here today later a kind of comparison, and i'm wondering what you think about this, it was stated that this grant is designed to address the low income populations in the

colleges and universities, right? that is what is appropriated.for we heard a statistic yesterday that $10 million of the grants are appropriated to all of the ivy league universities collectively. and collectively, those ivy league universities enroll 60,000 students -- i'm not clear of the number of pell eligible students. i was told that the california university state system which enrolls 400,000 students receives $11 million as compared to $10 million for 60,000. $11 million for 400,000.

in a situation where almost half of those 400,000 students are pell eligible. meaning that there are some levels of low income. i am wondering, how can that be? dr. minor: let me make one distinction that will be helpful. there are two primary domains. one is a formula-based grant. which means the institution meets the notion of being eligible to receive the great reward. the other category is discretionary competitive. meaning that applicants submit a proposal that is scored primarily by p or-reviewers. the department doesn't arbitrarily decide who the winner or loser in the competition is.

we have a review process that ranks the applications. there are no ways for the department to dictate. trio and era competitive. the formulas are parts of statutes and regulations neither something that the department arbitrarily changes. or an act of congress changes the statute. >> the rulemaking is done pursuant to a regulatory regime adopted by the congress. thank you so much. >> mrs. florez, you mentioned the number of latino students particularly is going up -- our population is growing so fast and quickly, by very nature, you

see more latinos in the pipeline. but that is not necessarily attributable to any specific programs that are preparing them. the population is bubbling up, it is going to reflect itself in those statistics. is that right? mr. florez: my main point is not to reach for success without understanding that it may just be demography and not policy. all of those statistics are important -- demography is very important. don't make conclusions based on demography and the actual success. >> one of our speakers was making that same point. mrs. florez: it is a common misconception.

>> dr. carr, your statistics show among the various populations continue to do better in those areas of measurement. the commissioner yesterday very eloquently distinguished between various subgroups of asians, and we had testimony from the south asian immunity which is substantially underserved and represented. there are other communities such as the indian and chinese communities who come here with higher educational credentials their children have been able to proceed in a more successful route for the most part. does your data take account of the subgroups of asian-americans and even latinos? dr. carr: the data are presented

today does not differentiate between asians and the traditional reference to chinese, japanese, and pacific islanders. the recent data has started to do so. i should say that the gaps between those groups is just as wide as those groups between whites and asians, whites and native americans excuse me. we have only just begun to differentiate the types of origins of the asian-americans. but it is important, and the department has been put on notice that this is something the community wants to see. and as we begin to release data in the years to come. we do not have data is differentiated for hispanic

americans, however, it is more difficult to assess that data. we are getting from the schools and school districts monday don't all collected the same way. certainly, the asian pacific data is one that we are working very hard to differentiate in the future. >> the school districts for differentiating in asians but not hispanic? why is that? dr. carr: they don't all report to us that way. they don't all report the origin. we don't correct the data in such a refined way. >> but you are planning to. yesterday we were talking about leveraging federal dollars, is there some way that some of the school districts -- you can request that they provide

you broken down by subgroup. dr. carr: it is a matter of putting the procedures in place such that one state gives an indication or definition of origin of the student is the same as another state. i think it is a matter of getting a definition and procedures in place. i don't think it is a funding issue. >> whose response ability is that? dr. carr: it is a collective partnership between state and the surveys and the mandated surveys, in addition to the ones that are not mandated. >> is there a plan to do that? or it would be nice to do that. dr. carr: we are cognizant of the need to differentiate among origin of students.

we're starting to indicate that most notably with the asian-americans. >> you plan to do it. thank you. commissioner: i have been thinking about this over the past couple of days. we have been talking a lot about the achievement gap in the access to higher education. there is a financial gap, as well. and then there is the completion gap, in terms of finishing it. how all of that goes towards debt burden and income earning, to escape s the low the ses factors. it appears to me in looking at the issues of access to begin with, community colleges play a

very important role in providing a couple of things. if we can achieve as some states are doing, as president obama has wanted, to have free community college, we are closing the financial access gap. within the system itself, you can provide the kinds of instruction that can get someone up to speed where they can then transfer to the four-year institution for completion. do we have any data on beauty colleges and their role -- community colleges and their role in terms of getting the men and being able to matriculate them into a four-year institution. and whether that has any institutional guarantee for baccalaureate degree. this florez: i would argue that

they have the best data to track the pathway in clear detail. a number of studies across the states of ohio, texas, and a few others found that starting at a community college -- knowing that, we work around that? her with it? there has been an explosion of research on community colleges teachers colleges out of columbia has done great work. that is the first place of entry for low income, regardless of preparation. it is an opportunity and a challenge. if the institution is not operating are performing as it should, they could have the effect of basically working against the preparation students come with. at the same time, students who are very -- who do not have proper preparation, is a good

place to begin to earn a credential. but there is a lot of work out there, i would be happy to refer you to more. the state have that level of detail. florida has a great articulation agreement. other states are working towards that. one of the trends we see in texas, students can graduate with an associates degree in high school. that is been a really interesting development and how we think about post secondary education. you do not have to finish high school before you begin. that is another area were the states have better data than others to look at the community college now that the boundaries are gone. dr. miner: we have very good data, but we are not very enthusiastic about what it tells us how low income students are

performing in community colleges. although they are very accessible to students and relativelely affordable. virtually free. we still have challenges getting students completing the degree or to earn enough credits to transfer into a four-year college or university. 25 years ago, community colleges were talking about having a cooling out function. we have enough data to suggest that it does lower the likelihood that students earn the bachelor degree. there are two things -- a few factors play into wine we are experiencing these outcomes. in any system, community colleges tend to be the resources. the majority or faculty tend to

be adjunct. there is not a residential component. they are taking classes and living their life, unlike students who are attending for year students. and i do think in some states that have very good articulation agreements, we still have the issue of students accumulate enough credits over a. period that would allow them to transfer. california is a good example, it is a challenging example. it has had the most universal access, the strongest articulation agreements, 75% of latinos and african american students who began the transfer don't earn the associates after six years.

>> is very interesting to me. the search for these answers commissioner was talking about these, you have all of these things and play. education is a holistic endeavor. you're trying to make up for deficiencies in k-12. do you do that at the community college level? supplemental services at the college level? part of what you're telling me is that maybe community colleges are not the secondary lifeboat that they could or should be. maybe they should be, but they are not staffed correctly. they are not programmed in the right way. they become this generic catchall for a lot of different things that may not lead to that baccalaureate degree. i wish that we had a second day

to get more people to talk about this. that seems to be, a lot of people throwing that out there. they cannot get into cal or michigan state or wherever, they go to community college and transfer. if the reality is not there, we need to know about that. there is one thing i want to pursue that the commissioner was trying to nudge you on. i appreciate the fact that you might not be able to talk about it. when you look at programs like trio, which are creatures of congressional creation, our job here is to be the watchdog. our job here is to bark as loudly as we can then maybe something needs to be changed. when you look at completion

rates within colleges, across the board, does it say to you -- any of you that trio or ses shouldn't be a grant? it should be formula based on how many low income and/or a students you have in your institution? not whether you have a good grant writer. to say that when the calt state has so many latinos or african-americans, we need the ability to say, this should not be a discretionary program. we have a national challenge, we need a national goal to ensure that once you are there, you make it out. we heard testimony about what

happens to people who do not make it out. how to create a legacy of debt or the next generation. it impedes their ability to move on. there are things we can do. are these things we should be rethinking the issue of grant and more along the lines of pell as an entitlement to institution's. as a reward for their ability to enroll and the practical reality that we are going to make more productive people if we give the resources to sustain them. dr. miner: let me answer quickly and carefully. it is an interesting question. but i think we have to consider it carefully. there are provisions in the regulations that spell out who should be served by many of these programs.

i am very clear about those regulations, designed to serve first generation and low income students. the question that you are asking, where should they live? what kinds of institutions -- >> not even that. do we need it? it is great, we understood that first-generation individuals are people who deserve extra tension. but the fact of the matter is over the past 40 years since civil rights, we have greeted a legacy of poverty and injustice in certain communities in this country. where, essentially, they are

first generation. their generation never got the chance to get the promises that government and others have made in the war on poverty. do we need to change then and say trio should not just be a grant award which fits into this category. we should look at disadvantaged youths for all the students. dr. miner: again, i think it is theoretical and philosophical question. >> it is a legislative fiscal western. dr. miner: congress will take up the reauthorization of the higher education act. it is one of the questions that is worth pursuing. the bigger question there is how effective are the programs we are currently investing in?

could we leverage the funds differently? or focus them differently in a way that would be more effective and ultimately sort of improve the social mobility of the students in the program? that is one of several questions we get takeout. but we should do it carefully because there are no clear answers. the final thing i would say is that any provisions that spell out how federal grant awards would be made have to be careful to be applicable. >> vice chairman sorry.

dr. florez: we do have to be able to leverage the best grants . maybe investing in institutional capacity to have stronger grant opportunities, more successful grant opportunities would be one way to have additional funds. i do think if we work -- redistribute between programming , i do think we need some form of accountability. his point about not defending the constitution, there is a way i think to be able to increase capacity for the lowest income

students and still call for accountability. >> you will be followed by the commissioner. >> thank you very much, mr. chair. this goes to all of our panelists. as educators and others have looked out reviewed pathways to higher education for our poor, our first generation, our underrepresented minority students, one of the fairly novel concepts that has been developed is that of the early college. as i understand that program, it combines high school and college. by the time the student completes their high school requirements, they have also completed two years of college. i was wondering if there was any data out there whoever saw this

is a trend or merit., what are the statistics and information telling us? dr. miner: these are fairly new programs, not in all cases. we have not seen them as systematic programs. one of the problems is that belongs to the state. the few places i have lived, i learned there are more school districts the counties. they all have different calendars, requirements, different rules and regulations about how to account for -- it is a challenge. a wonderful idea, in two ways. students actually acutely college credits which makes college more affordable. but what is more important about

that, they actually understand themselves as clearly transitioning from high school to some post secondary institution. it is a way, maybe not formally, but culturally and socially to get students in the mindset of they are expected to transition to some institution. i think it is early. i was in florida just a few weeks ago, their legislature has mandated they have four lab schools. one of them is florida atlantic university, which not only does early college -- i met a 17-year-old and a 19-year-old who were both on their way to graduate school. they had a key really did so many credits not only high school but on the college campus during that. of time. we have models, but we don't

have systematic data at this point to suggest which models of early college work best. >> is that something the department of education can understand how education is generally a state run program -- is or something the department to do to encourage folks to get more information. you are right, kids are on a college campus more often than not. and they see themselves there. dr. miner: it is one of the things we expect to incentivize and some of our programs. we are very excited about the potential of early college. dr. carr: we have transcript data from high schools. we are beginning to collect from middle schools, as well. some of these kids are involved in the programs. it is a new trend.

it takes a while to get this in the mold of data collection. we understand it that different models takes time to collect the data. and get them into the pipeline. i should say though, one of the things that is going to facilitate this type of data collection -- the digital approach to transcript data collection, currently what is done for most schools and school districts is we have to do it by hand. which is labor-intensive. the pulling of this data is also not very standardized, so there are some issues to work out. but it will be available in the coming years. is florez: i would add that

looking at the research for dual enrollment, not necessarily early college high schools, but one of the things to note on these programs -- what are we measuring? are we measuring the students who would've gone to college anyway? is getting to that question of selection bias, students who may not have gone to college. that is one of the key things to disentangle out of this. and forgive me for repeating this again, but there are ways to begin to measure this. some of the state databases emma , like the ones in texas, we are seeing students from the rio grande valley granting associates degrees in high school. we don't yet know what that means for long-term trajectory. but we do see that getting the associate's degree does lead to

completing the bachelors. >> is a former state appellate judge, i saw early on that indeed there was correlation. between education and incarceration. in fact, it was often repeated that the number of students not reading at grade level by the third grade was one of the assessments that was used to project the number of prisons that were to be constructed and the number of prison beds we would need as states in the nation. can you comment on that? is there any truth, dr. carr, to such a to cystic being kept -- to such a statistic being kept? the number of prisons and prison

beds? dr. carr: i can say we certainly don't keep that. i don't doubt that it exists and people are using it to make projections. but i can say that the gaps between the minority students and white students are large and persistent and they start early. this is something that we really do need to be concerned about the reading of students and their ability to read. it is a predictor of a lot of factors. particularly the students i think we cannot lose. we have made significant progress. it is not all doom's day. the data projects that all students regardless of rate and

-- race and ethnicity are improving. the only reason of the gaps are glaring even a small as they are is because it is coming up quicker. that means students are making improvements. >> i concur. it is not something that the department of education maintains. >> completion of a high school degree decreases crime. >> thank you. you made a comment that there were clearly many more students who are eligible to be served and are being served because of

the limitations on resources. we have an estimate on how many we are talking about? >> [inaudible] let me say it this way, we probably could double the number of students that are being served by the programs that are currently funded. >> some of the witnesses who are testifying over these two days of hearings have proposals they feel there is insufficient data to show the programs have been successful, so we should eliminate funding for that, or some have been successful. perhaps it would be better to roll it all into one a general grant program that is more flexible. i'm wondering what your take on is in terms of that data?

you know the department has been doing more databased research. i'm wondering whether any of you have a response to the issue. how could this programs be improved? quite thank you -- >> thank you. i appreciate you highlighting the point. there is no doubt we need to have that evaluation and data attached to this kind of investment. i make no owns about that. in terms of what you propose in place or interesting is. as terrible as the programs and potential to replace or do the work better. one thing we are clear is that there are many factors that contribute to a young person the success of education.

70 diversity of. one thing i clear the department is there a evaluation that are attached to the programs. some of these programs are started years ago. the effectiveness is not art of the legislative -- part of the legislative process at the time. as a move forward, i think we are significantly more sophisticated, but in terms of the science, we still have data points to fix. make sure they are cooperative and interested and willing to learn about how to more effectively serve students. i met with a group just two weeks ago. one of the things i try to communicate, these are federally funded programs to build roads

or bridges. these are young people. i take 60 the issue that we could be spending taxpayer dollars on programs that don't effectively help students be successful in the educational system. it is something we are very serious about. i can do have a much more significant factor going forward. >> has congress been providing sufficient funding to do the kind of research that i everyone agrees with be ideal? >> the answer is no. when we raised this with the grantee is -- granttees, the kind of capacity required to do the evaluation is not take into the budget.

one message is that we are working as hard as we can. now you want to play on this exquisite, collaborative -- without resources is problematic. i think that is something we have to take up if in fact we are going to ask individuals who had awarded grants to do additional work and be responsible. we have got to be serious about providing that kind of some port. >> commissioner. >> i have one more question. >> it has been my experience that the cost of attending college is not just the tuition and fees. the challenge it seems and a lot of the reading that we have is that not surprisingly if you come from a poor low income

family, you are trying to work full-time or a lot. that contributes to essentially not able to finish on time. i'm wondering how much research, if any, has been on -- done on the efficacy of providing stiff been so they could spend more time being able to study take a full load than having to have the stress of working full-time as well as trying to carry it lowered -- forward? >> very proud of the department of education. we referred to it as a campus. child hair -- childcare access for students who have children. i think it is a critically important fact or. one of the things i want to make clear is that we often talk

about college students as 18-year-old's who just left high school. when in fact that is not true. the mean age has gone up over the years. in this country, there are more individuals between the ages of 25 and 64 come individuals expect to be the work lace, the have some college, but no degree . admitting they started college somewhere and then they fell out. 36 million individuals in that age group who actually have a bachelor's degree. what that tells me is not only do we have to provide traditional opportunities for individuals to earn, we also have two provide less traditional ways first june 2 may have started three years ago.

we have to provide opportunities and pathways for those individuals return. >> a grego do posted it is no longer 18-24 -- i agree that that typical student is no longer 18-24 years old. part of that meaning you may have to fill out to fast the and how to comply with federal reg you relation and at the end of the day, many students do not get near to filling out the fafsa. there will be significant scaffolding needed to understand who would even qualify first defend, especially if it is federal money and how to make yourself known. these are way out is to just pay as you go in community colleges. i think the idea can be a great

experiment. it would require additional -- >> thank you. >> wanted to go back to the point that the chairman's darted with. it is complicated for all races. we talked about data for asians and hispanics. this will make things look different for blacks and whites, i believe. my understanding is that they tend to do better in the higher education setting bandon caribbean lacks. among whites, you get some big differences as well. some ethnic groups do better than others in higher education. students have been

extraordinarily successful in the higher education setting. on the other hand, others have not done nearly as well. this is not to say that these groups do not excel in other areas. there are big differences among subgroup within blacks and whites. as anyone collected data on that? is there any plan to be collecting on that? anyone who would like to jump in. quite it is a very complex question. we have to be very careful when regarding how to ask these questions and how we could

report on these questions. i do think that there is data that shows that blacks from african nations -- the kirby and -- caribbean blacks as well did we need to be paying attention. we have to be careful about how we ask those. >> i appreciate your question. i think it is very important. make me think of studies of immigration students.

there is considerable work considering biracial status. it would be happy to refer you to that research. it is important to know where the gaps are. >> i would add one technical problem with this. once you start at a certain level, you are not going to do patterns that are reliable or dependable over time. in many instances you cannot go down with -- there is a really good case.

located in only about five states. ask the thing that worries me is the idea that blacks as a group and white as a group -- neither is the least bit monolithic. it is very complicated groups. i take your point on the difficulty of collecting that data and the sensitivity of the issue. it is important that people understand these are not monolithic. >> go ahead. >> which factors contribute to the social economic status? i think the general understanding has to do with income or the determination of

someone's economic stance. >> there are fact or's that are typically used to determine. >> identify income. education. occupation. those are the key factors. even with those factors as a differentiation based upon the cultural and racial makeup of the family -- it might mean something very different for a white family are having a four-year degree for a black family.

maybe something very different from a family with a different sort of access to a different type of four-year institution. we have to be very careful. the department has depended most notably on a -- on data that i mentioned earlier. in collecting that from the parents -- it is a bit of a hearing. they often don't want to tell you how much they make even when you give them ranges. >> occupation, education asians dramatically outperform not just other groups groups from high

-- any data by the outperform just about everyone else? >> the agents are located in the -- compared to blacks and hispanics. unless you separate the asian-pacific islanders out they are very or. you don't see the pattern that we saw here today. >> you mentioned other programs. do you have an understanding of how much those programs or total expenditures has been level or flat. any data related to that? >> yes. with a very specific data for all of the programs.

over the last decade, there have been small incremental increases subject to the budget, but fairly flat compared to lots of other indicators. the big question is whether the investment is sufficient to actually see the movement we need to see across the country. in the last several years, it has been relatively flat. >> when did the bulk of these programs -- was it recently? i to 1970's? 1990's? >> some of the programs we spoke of where -- are about 80 years

old. they were part of the legislation. the great society that sought to and poverty in the 1960's. some of them we mentioned came online in 1998. some as recent as last year. there was a bundle that came 50 years ago. some mid to early 90's. some of these represented extensions of other programs. some are new. you heard me mention the present school to be first in the world. that has been complemented by a grant program to's were innovation. that program this year is only two years old. >> i did want to ask one quick thing before we closed.

i think they concurred that starting a course a community college makes it less like you will -- is that correct? >> students who start -- >> the president of the university of houston downtown indicated one of their success factors is that those students who enroll in a community college and then transfer to their school, they actually have them go back and complete their associates degree and graduate will through the graduation ceremony and increases their likelihood of completing their bachelors. i don't think that is necessarily inconsistent with what you are saying. could you i just that? >> i think my light is off.

the evidence i was speaking about didn't account for these innovations. i do not think they are inconsistent. i think what we are about is an additional intervention. it started with taking students back. these other studies of accounts of -- that could be an additional way. it says a lot about the students. most never even transfer. >> is that what you wanted to do? >> for the asian american community, a lot of the demographic have felt that immigration has created the community here. the biggest predict your of

poverty is language proficiency -- predictor of poverty is linkage proficiency. it is much were difficult to learn english. you have a situation where a lot of. will come from korea or other countries where they may be highly educated and have called an advanced degrees, but can automatically turn the professional life here into a professionalized -- they end up owning grocery stores are doing very low income work. there highly educated as parents, which is the back -- best predictor where the kids are going to go to college, but the income will be very low. >> these factors need to be culminated into a single construct. >> i will wrap this panel.

we have another panel. the want to be respectful. thanks to each of you. it has been fascinating and help will. i will last the other panelists to begin to move forward. our staff will change the name plate so we could get started on our next panel. thank you. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> we will get started.

we are reconvening far second panel of the day. let me briefly introduce the panelists and swear them in. we have a guest on the california state university. i'm sorry. i'm looking at the wrong one. ok. you are sitting in for him. we have scott miller of the university of virginia. you have a gain from the university of virginia. we have dr. hamilton with the new school of public affairs. i will ask each to raise your right hand to be sworn. these were that the information you are about to provide us is true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and believe? >> yes. q.

-- >> thank you. >> thank you for the chance to speak today. csu is a public university comprised of 23 campuses. we're celebrating our graduation of about 3 million. we run the largest and most diverse university system in the country. i'm honored to be before you this morning to discuss the work at the cal state university does. they provide the tools students need to excel and graduate hiring out the public mission of -- and graduate and carry out the public mission. equitable access to quality education is an important issue

in the investment -- advancement of civil rights. the idea was born of a high-quality education should be accessible to all who are willing and able to do the work. they city was and still is revolutionary. california's public hiring education is an amazing model for many colleges and universities around the country and the world. california's of looks colleges -- california's public colleges -- you could see the of the mission of the cal state reflected in our student population. half of our students are running -- earning undergraduate degrees and are receiving awards. many are the first in the family to attend college. many commute from the childhood homes and the majority work to help with school and family expenses.

students of color make up nearly two thirds of the degree seeking population at cal state. where than half of all bachelors earned annually by latino students are earned at the california state university level. expanding access to historically underserved students is central. access is only art of it. it is getting students to complete a high-quality degree and flourish thereafter is our true goal. first and often the most daunting is college readiness. csu has them wrote -- embraced several approaches to empower students to be successful in the university environment. these steps include partnering with k-12 so students could develop diversity level skill sets and clear pathways. the goal of high school and

community college education is -- remus look out to the horizon. acceptance must come up with a plan of support in the will and the ability to execute that plan. that is why we launched graduation initiative 2025. ambitious effort to increase our rate while feeling in the gaps for historically underserved and low income students relations. the core principle that all students should have the opportunity to succeed regardless of the neighborhood they grew up in, schools they tended, their parents education level, or their family income level. the modern student needs confronting the full range of challenges they face. these barriers can and will be overcome. students and staff are leading the way.

we're bringing individualized learning to scale in math a system millions of students. university and state efforts have cap tuition fees down to students in the family at an average of just over $6,000. it has been at that rate for the past four years. really we have me -- roughly half of our student's graduate with no debt. those who are do so at levels well below the national average. modest increases in federal and financial aid investment combined with strategic relocations of -- the locations of sources help students continue to have resources to be successful. there's detail in my reinstatement that funds are being allocated inequitably.

outdated formulas means that existing dollars disproportionally owed to students. this is a policy that lawmakers can and should address. likewise, it could be strengthened by strategically investing in transitional programs and expanding veterans upward bound. these suggestions are modern -- modest and they are important and achievable. it helps students dig through the early stages of an undergraduate education. these corridor efforts are tremendous effort to underserved populations and begin to adjust the civil rights of unequal access and an equals of war. and the entire american public shares in the benefit of better access and student success. a stronger global economi