to develop side impact crash worthiness standards, including performance validation for passenger rail cars. once those side impact crash worthiness standards have been developed to require that new passenger rail cars being built to this standards. i would ask you, we've had all these investigations, has any research been done on these side collision impacts. >> we're doing research now. >> can you give us information on what that entails or will you be making regulations or changing regulations. >> this research is ongoing and we can get your office a full report. apart from that we've done a tremendous amount of work on grade crossings which has been a problem for many years and is

on a slight up tick. on side impact collisions alone our research is ongoing. >> this goes back to the first question mr. defazio asked about buying new train cars. whenever this study gets done that comes with recommendations new requirements must be made for train cars that meet some increase standards for side crashes, are we getting new cars? we heard they were 40 years old and heard pictures of the car compared to the locomotive. can you talk about that. >> these cars have a very much lower section. i went to the accident site. >> i think you were the assistant director. i realize you were involved in this report for the accident in nevada. mr. boardman: i was the crsm

e.o. for am track and looked what happened. it was a double tractor-trailer and the impact from the side killed our conductor but really was a signal case the back trailer came up and hit the top of the train that did the passenger deaths and injuries. there is a i'm not a mechanical engineer. there is a huge problem at this particular location. it was a very strange crash because there was total visibility for the truck that went into the side of the train. and if you were going to protect for that by replacing the equipment, you'd have major engineering that would have to occur and i'd have to see whether any such thing could happen. >> so you disagreed with the

recommendation that they need to look at side -- mr. boardman: no, i don't disagree but think it would be a difficult thing. we can't retrofit it and it would have to be new equipment and we're probably talking about 450 of the bilevel type cars and $3.5 million to $4 million for each of those cars and could be a substantial cost to doing that and would take us probably 10 years to make those kinds of changes and deliver new equipment. >> what about as you buy new cars? mr. boardman: we haven't bought any new cars in a considerable amount of time. >> that goes back to mr. defazio's question. we heard of spending money for the signaling system and money for infrastructure but what about these old cars, what's the plan there? mr. boardman: what we did with the single level cars and the locomotives, we're paying for that out of the fares we

receive on the northeast corridor. on the long distance trains there's no additional revenue and it's a completely deficit operation and we don't have those resources to borrow money on the r.i.f. program or any other way to replace those cars. >> that seems to me to be a problem. mr. boardman: yes, ma'am. >> mr. davis? mr. davis: thank you to each of the witnesses for being here today. my first question, mr. boardman going back to earlier statements you made in the q&a, you mentioned there were six, possibly 10, if i'm doing the math right vulnerabilities identified similar to what we saw in the northeast corridor, the northbound train going towards the curb. and you mentioned that these types of curbs existed. have you installed co-change points at those curbs and was there a cost to do so?

mr. boardman: you have to go back to the incident in 1990 and when that occurred, the safety community got together, operators got together to look at what needs to be done to protect ourselves in that case. and what they identified were six curbs on the northeast corridor they needed to treat. and those six curbs included the north side of the faping further -- the fang ford curb because the entrance speed at 110 was greater than what the turnover speed was in the curve itself. so they put a co-change point there. mr. davis: is there a cost in the co-change point there? mr. boardman: and the south side there was not a need to do that because the approach speed was 80 miles an hour and therefore even if that engineer failed to slow they wouldn't

overturn. so there was six places along there. mr. davis: a total of six. mr. boardman: there's a moderate cost to doing anything you know. but not a major cost. mr. davis: what is the cost? mr. boardman: i don't know. the automatic train control system provides an idea whether there's something in front of you on the track. so the way that you do this co-change is you really have a bit of fiction here. you say there is something at the curve and so that's when you point -- you put the co-change point in. it wasn't build to do positive train control. on the other four where you added up six and four, what we looked at was the f.r.a. emergency order was the change that occurred here and the conditions that exist on the south side and we put that

co-change in on the south side and looked to find out on the northeast corner, we had 300 curves, what conditions or curves meeting that condition need to be changed and that's what we told f.r.a. there was work to do. mr. davis: i don't have a lot of time left but have a lot of questions so if you could have your staff get back to me on if you found any other amtrak corridors with the same issues and when you estimate you'll be done identifying and actually installing co-changes on those areas identified as vulnerable? mr. boardman: we only would do it on the northeast corridor on the emergency order. mr. davis: i have amtrak corridors in my state of illinois. are there any vulnerabilities there you have identified? mr. boardman: they're all over the united states and mostly on host railroads and depend on the expertise of our engineers and how the signaling system works and if there's no signaling at all and there are

locations across the country where that occurs though depend on a form d control system. mr. davis: in a 2012 inspector general report amtrak was criticized because despite the legal requirements to do so amtrak did not include the funding requirements for p.t.c. in the five year financial plan and annual budget request. and this is directly from the report. can you explain this critical omission? mr. boardman: what we saw in that particular report in 2012, they were looking for us to have come to congress to specifically ask for p.t.c. service and that wasn't what we operated with with congress. it was almost like a block grant of capital projects. i identified as soon as i got over there what it was going to cost for us to meet this

requirement by december of 2015 and it was about the safety of that not about the dollars of that. mr. davis: ok. i'm reading in the report here and says further to a transportation official stated his departments purposefully omitted p.t.c. costs for host lines from the plan in annual budget requests and cited his belief that this would weaken amtrak's negotiating position with the host railroad, etc. that's concerning to us but appreciate the job you do. thank you for being here and thank you to all the businesses. i yield back my time. >> thank you. mr. sanford: i'll try and make my comments brief since i'm separating you from lunch and you guys, and gal have been most generous with your time and appreciate it. i associate my comments with what congressman zelledon said

with indeed mourning for the loss of life a very sad day. but what i think is important in the wake of any sad day or any tragedy is to go in, do the investigation, but to make sure in many ways as a society we don't overreact in ways in which that would make the system less sustainable from a financial standpoint and we don't overreact to what impens upon individual liberty and we don't overreact in ways that it becomes so constraining so that the practical effect is people say i'm walking. i guess the safest of all mechanisms would be to put people in those things you strap into it at a public fare. you're locked in but from the standpoint of a practical effect you can't use your

laptop or talk on the phone and say i'm going to a different mode of transportation. with that in mind it seems like in the course of the hearing two ideas have come out i think would be dangerous in terms of the overreaction to the real world tragedy each one of you have had to deal with. one is this idea of seat belts. if you think about it, there's a reason there are seat belts on airplanes which is you have all kinds of vertical and horizontal considerations based on airlift well outside of the control of the pilot. we've been in the thunderstorm moments where oh, my goodness, what's happening next, that does not occur on a train. what we all know is when a plane crashes wearing a seat belt or not tragically, a lot of people die. same thing with school buses. a lot of kids ride to and from schools daily and in most cases i'm aware of, certainly in the case of south carolina, there aren't seat belts for those kids. i think it would have a dangerous effect and would love to hear your further thoughts, if you were to impose

seat belts in reaction to this tragedy. in my sense it would be a step too far. the other would be directed towards you, mr. pierce, and that is this notion of moving to two men in the front of the train. it seems to me it would be an added financial burden to the amtrak system which is already straining to the tune of more than $1 billion in terms of subsidy and other. and if you look at the whole notion moving towards positive train control, the idea is to take out that possibility of human error which wouldn't be frankly, truncated or eliminated if you move to a two-man system up front. i think it is important what you all have done at the amtrak level to move to this notion of inward facing cameras. i think that can watch out for human error but think that would be a step too far as well. and i apologize. it was my sister. any thoughts on either one of those two as steps too far.

she's resleptless. ms. fineburg: we're moving ahead with inward facing cameras and something my predecessor was moving ahead with at the time of his departure. this committee urged the f.r.a. to make sure we're making use of the commit and asked rsac to come to a conclusion and we told them we were moving ahead. mr. sanford: you agree on seat belts or two men in the front? ms. feinberg: seat bettings, the way i've been briefed on it, the need to harden the seats in order to put seat belts in would be more dangerous to passengers than belting passengers in. so if the ntsb feels differently we'll start our

engagement in conversations with them but that's my understanding why seat belts may not be the best move on a train because it would make people more dangerous. on two-person crews -- mr. sanford: when i travel to new york, i used to work there, the reality is people are up and moving and part of why you take the train as opposed to getting on an airplane, you can be on the phone or having a small group meeting with a couple other folks and you take that out, i think you begin to lose market share that much further relative to plane travel. the other, i'm sorry? ms. feinberg: two person crew is something we've been taking a close look at. it's less relevant in passenger service because there are multiple people on the crew. amtrak had five people on the crew, i heard six people on a crew on this particular train. it's usually discussed separately. but following the metro north incident, one thing we required is for the engineer to be in almost constant conversation with the conductor to make sure

that they are talking back and forth signals and make sure the conductor had access to an emergency brake which is another good approach. mr. sanford: i hear my gentleman's tap, tap, tap. i get the message sir. >> i'd like to change the chairman for being expedient today and yielding back so much time. mr. behalfen. mr. behalfen: last but not least, hopefully. thank you, witnesses for your time and efforts this week to try to reach answers to this great tragedy that occurred in the northeast corridor. it's been interesting to listen to these lines of questioning. it's hard to imagine why it's so complicated to get the answer to whether the engineer was utilizing a cell phone at the time of the crash. it seems like it should be just a simple answer, simple

endeavor to find out, as ms. com song in her -- ms. com stock, in her line of questioning, did he text or use his phone, it should be there. hard to figure out why that's not true. and in terms of further investigations there was a news report, several of them, that stated amtrak regional 188 had a fist sized area of severe damage on its windshield, possibly consistent of that being struck by some rock or object. 20 minutes before the crash of 188, a regional commuter train in the same area had to stop service after its window was hit by an object. finally, also around the same time, amtrak 2173 was apparently also struck by an object while traveling southbound in the very same area. there's an old saying that while once is an accident, twice is a coincidence and

three times is a pattern. do you think, mr. hart, that that applies here? mr. hart: we are confident the train left the station without windshield damage. we are confident the damage occurred after leaving the station. we don't know whether it occurred before the accident or after the accident. we do know it was not a weapon fired. the f.b.i. helped us determine that so we know that. we know rocks are thrown at windshields all the time and often cracks the windshield so that could have happened but that's a way the windshield could be damaged but also could be post accident damage as well. mr. babin: there's been no revelations or findings during the investigation of any individual or individuals culprits responsible for the damage done to the other two trains as well? have we found out anything in that regard. >> no, we do not have any information in that regard.

mr. babin: would any other panelist like to address the possibility of damage to the windshield? >> i think we have from time to time have people throw rocks at our trains. but what's the specific question sir, in terms of -- mr. babin: i have family that lives in manhattan and they ride this train. i've ridden the train several times along the same corridor, and i've remarked to myself and to others that there's certainly a lot of availability or the possibility of vandalism, somebody pitching something over on to a train or firing a weapon or whatever. and i just wonder if there's been any -- besides the investigation ongoing now has

there been any addressing of this possibility by ntsb or any of the other of your agencies. mr. boardman: actually, the way we've been addressing a particular area including this one is with the amtrak police department and the partnerships we have with the police departments along the way. so as we've been there, we're looking to see where those rocks might have come from and anywhere else that we have this kind of difficulty on the corridor we do have an investigation that goes in to see if we can find the when and the where and the who that might be tossing rocks. it's generally an some kind of kids or something doing that and it's not just the trains but to buses to cars, to other kinds of conveyances as well. mr. babin: mr. chairman, i yield back.

>> the gentleman yields back. >> mr.00, what time is it? >> mr. hunt: 1:06. >> that says 1:05. do seconds matter to a train going 100 miles an hour. mr. hart: very crucial, yes. mr. capuano: at this point as we speak you have some general knowledge what occurred with that cell phone? is that a fair assumption or had you just not looked at it at all? mr. hart: we are looking at it with respect to may 12. mr. capuano: you're dotting your i's and crossing your t's before making a crucial statement? mr. hart: we want to get it right and not be hurried to getting the right answer. mr. capuano: are these normal procedures? mr. hart: we look at cell phones all the time because we're seeing it so frequently.

mr. capuano: like everyone else i'm frustrated the cell phone thing is not celtsed yet but i presume you have some general information about what has happened and you've been reluctant to say it because you're dotting your i's and crossing your t's which is exactly what i want you to do. it would be nice if you could do that now. i hope it's soon. i assume it will be. nonetheless, i guess i'm willing to wait. on seat belts ms. feinberg, you're not as old as i am. when i was a kid, we didn't have seat belts in the car. we had them -- i'm not even sure we had them. i take it back. i used to be thrown in the back of a station wagon and we could play all day long and run around the back of the station wagon until my mother and father turned around the made the threat, sit down and shut up or i'll stop this car. every kid my able heard that but yet we put seat belts in cars. you restricted my freedom, now

i can't run around in the car. you have seat belts in airplanes. you restricted my freedom but yet i can still get up, go to the toilet, talk to my friend in the back. and i under fully well that the structure of current trains may not make it much -- i get that. i get the fact it may take us five, 10, 15 years to get where we want to be on seat belts but at some point, again on the presumption seat belts help because i assume they do because the automobile and airplane industry instituted them. i know some people don't wear them and i'm not perfect myself. i didn't wear my seat belt until i started screaming at my kids to put their seat belt on or dad would be arrested, which at that age they cared about and realized what a hypocrite i was and started wearing my own seat belt. like it or not it's better for me. i get that. i'm not suggesting we need to put seat belts on the train now but to pretend seat belts in a

train are going to somehow restrict people's freedom and drive the ridership down is absurd. and i would simply encourage you if it is a safety issue -- again, i'm not a safety expert and will listen to the ntsb. if seat belts can save lives or stop injuries, we should start planning on the implementation of them. if they can't be done in the current train configuration fine, i get that. but at some point you'll order new trains and when you do maybe you can implement seat belts in them. and i want to do one other thing. i ask unanimous consent to include in the record tearls from the f.c.c. which shows what they've done to, i won't say help but help or hinder the railroad's move towards positive train control. >> without objection. sorry. mr. capuano: yet i yield back. i gave you time. >> if mr. sanford were here, he'd take note. obviously there's a lot of

frustration in this committee and certainly a lot of attention to the lack of answers thereof. it has been three weeks now. item been all over the media, rightly so, there's been loss of life. there are americans that are still looking for answers on this as well. i know you'll continue to do your research but you've now come before the entire transportation committee of congress to come here and not have cell phone information, whether the cell phone was on or off, operable. to not understand what those records are after three weeks to not have an idea whether there was mechanical failure when you have the train a brand-new train had been put in service less than a year ago and can't do the autopsy on the train to understand whether there was a mechanical failure. it sounds like while the

engineer does not have recollection seconds before the crash, that he's at least being cooperative. we ought to have some assumptions or some facts on there or not there was operator error or an operator that actually created some type of malfunction. there are very few answers right now three weeks after one of the most horrific crashes that our nation has ever seen. so because of that, we're going to ask you for a timely response to the questions that have come here today and need to make a determination whether or not this body will have another hearing several weeks from now. so with that i would ask unanimous consent that the record of today's hearing remain open until such time as our witnesses have provided answers to any questions that may have been submitted to them in writing and unanimous consent that the record remain open for 15 days for additional comments and that witnesses provide answers to our questions for the record within

15 days of today's hearing. without objection, so ordered. i'd like to thank each of our witnesses for being here today. again, i would also like to thank our witnesses for your expedient response to the crash site itself and the collaboration each of you showed in working together to resolve that. and mr. hart, a response? mr. hart: we've not found anomalies with respect to the locomotive the signals the brakes or the locomotive that would explain this accident. mr. den dm ham: thank you. if no one has anything to add, the committee stands adjourned. . [captions copyright national

cable satellite corp.2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> the senate approved the house passed surveillance bill tuesday 67-32. we spoke to a reporter about the legislation. >> nancy is the correspondent for cbs news joining us on

capitol hill. thanks for being with us. nancy: thanks for having me, steve. steve: the votes failed in the u.s. senate. what happened. nancy: he's the leader of the senate and the majority party and yet all the amendments he put forth and that he argued very vigorously in favor of failed and not by close margins and failed pretty comfortably. he wanted in his words to impose safeguards into this new bill that he doesn't really support, the freedom act, which kind of requires the n.s.a. to stop collecting phone records of all americans and puts those records in the hands of the phone companies themselves. so he wanted to do things like lengthen the transition time between when these records stopped being collected at the n.s.a. and when they start

being collected from the phone companies from 6-12 months and wanted to make sure the director of national intelligence could sign off on the new system before it went operational. in both cases the senate said no and the house was also saying no that they had passed the freedom act and liked it the way it was. the white house was saying don't do it. he found himself in the minority. steve: it passed in the house and kevin mccarthy of california saying pass the bill as it is, sent it to the president's desk and don't change it. his republicans in the house were saying the same thing. nancy: right. one thing they were afraid of was not only that house republicans wouldn't like the changes but also that they would start to say well, if the senate can change it, then i've got an amendment i'd like to add and something i think should be in there and suddenly you have a whole new can of worms at a time the patriot act, or at least portions of

it, already expired which nobody wanted and the program and a few others are in limbo and want to get it done as quickly as possible. steve: for those that follow the senate closely it has been a interesting 48 hours. what's your take on all this? nancy: what's most interesting is the fact that the republican party, which we typically think of as the party of defense hawks is currently enjoying a moment where it's the party of privacy advocates. the privacy wing, the kind of libertarian wing of the party that says the government should stay out of your business is winning this debate. you've got folks like mitch mcconnell, like john cornyn saying this program is working. we are using this data quickly and easily when we need to to track terrorists and see who they are talking to. why would you fix something that isn't broken? but you have rand paul and other republicans, a lot of democrats arguing the

government shouldn't be holding on to all of this information about americans who have done nothing wrong. and that if investigators want information, they should have to get a warrant and go to the phone companies and get it that way. steve: as you pointed out on cbs this morning, an interesting dynamic between the senate republican leader and his colleague senator paul and the words turst sharp critical, some republicans like john mccain very angry at senator rand paul. nancy: isn't it fascinating. i know you're talking about republicans but democrat dick durbin had a good line today and said i don't want to be an extra in somebody else's television campaign commercial. democrats and republicans alike felt that the way that paul was fundraising off this issue was a little unseemly and transparent and felt he was doing some of this for show, especially because the delays

he imposed only meant that the program kind of went out of commission for 48 hours and now what has he actually accomplished? and i think republicans in particular felt that he was selling them out, that he was making the leader look bad. he runs the senate. when something goes wrong, he's the one with egg on his face and after all, these are supposed to be close kentucky allies and have within in the -- have been in the foxhole together and was endorsed for president. even if paul wasn't running for president i still think he would have taken the stand. this really is the issue that brought him to capitol hill in the first place when he does his famous filibusters, this is the issue he talks about. so i think he was always going to jump at the chance to sort of mettle with the patriot act and with this meta data collection program but just happened to be eager to benefit from it this time because he's

trying to raise money to run for president in a very crowded republican field. steve: nancy, as you talked to members of congress, was america's national security at any point at risk during the last day and a half or so? nancy: not in a significant way, according to the chairman of the senate intelligence committee, richard but of north carolina, he acknowledged a short-term halt to these programs isn't really a problem, it's if these programs were shut down long-term that would be difficult. and that's because the metadata program and this roving wiretap program that enables investigators to track terrorists who are using and discarding multiple cell phones, they're important tools but not used all the time. they're used infrequently, and so it's not as if investigators missed out on dozens of

opportunities during the last two days to utilize these programs. but if they aren't restored in a timely manner, that's when you could run into some security problems. steve: your observations were at the six-month mark for senator mitch mcconnell and promised a return to the regular order and the assumption of the amendment process. have things changed? nancy: i think you've seen some successes and some failures. he promised that he would create a more open amendment process where senators from both sides would have more chances to introduce amendments to bills and let the chips fall where they may. he said he was going to go through regular order more often where bills came up through their committees. in many cases he has held true to that and so senators feel more empowered like they have more of a hand in what's in the

legislation being crafted and what's being passed. on the other hand, he's still wrangling a party that now has something like five u.s. senators running for president who are all very eager to set themselves apart who are eager to show that they are not of washington and sometimes they are willing to go against official washington. well mitch mcconnell is about as official washington as you get. he is the leader of the senate. so sometimes they end up thwarting him in unpredictable ways. in this case, even his allies say that this was kind of a tactical error leaving this vote to the very last minute on sunday afternoon the way that he did. you could almost predict the way that things would have gone down. that doesn't mean that he had a lot of other options besides, i suppose, canceling the senate

recess or coming back several days early but he certainly gave rand paul the opening he's been waiting for for years. steve: nancy cordes covers congress for cbs news and look for your reporting on the cbs evening news and online @ cbsnews.com. thanks for being with us on capitol hill. nancy: thanks for having me. >> last month in garland texas, two gunmen opened fire outside of a cartoon contest and later were killed by police. today counterterrorism officials will testify about the shooting and terrorism threats on our soil. we'll have live reports at 10:00 a.m. eastern on c-span 3. later in the day former republican senator lincoln chafee who served as rhode island's governor will announce he's running for president as a democrat. that's live at 5:30 eastern. also on c-span 3.

>> a data breach at the i.r.s. resulted in personal tax information of 100 household being stolen. the head of the i.r.s. said updating security systems for the agency has been challenging because of recent budget cuts and the high demand for data security employees. senator orrin hatch chairs the senate finance committee.

>> the committee will come to order. our hearing includes revelations the internal revenue service was a target of a service breach named at texts to accounts. we understand over 100,000 of these breaches were successful with cybercriminals obtaining confidential taxpayer information from the agency's get transcript implication. in dealing with this breach here in the senate, this committee stands alone having legislative jurisdiction over the internal revenue code,

oversight jurisdiction over the i.r.s. and wide ranging abilities to conduct investigations dealing with individual taxpayer information. while i've raised questions in the past about the way the i.r.s. prioritizes its spending today's hearing is about finding out how criminals stole vast amounts of taxpayer information. any questions regarding funding level for the agency should wait until we have a complete understanding about what occurred. before we return to the technological issues let's focus for a moment on the victims because of this breach, criminals were able to get personal information about roughly 104,000 taxpayers potentially including social security numbers, bank account numbers and other sensitive information. these taxpayers and their families must now begin the long and difficult process of repairing their reputations and

must do so with the following the thieves who stole their data will likely try to use it to perpetuate further fraud against them. the commissioner put pressure on them. we work to find out what individuals or organizations were behind this breach, discover how this breach occurred and what steps the i.r.s. might have taken to prevent it and find out what taxpayer information was compromised and how it may affect boast taxpayers and tax administration going forward and determine what tools and resources are necessary to better protect taxpayers, catch cybercriminals and prevent this type of breach from being successful in the future. most of all, we must pledge to work together to make sure this type of breach does not happen again. the secure movement of information is the lifeblood of international commerce and a necessary predicate for efficient government

administration. unfortunately, this information is also highly valuable to criminals. we see it in the headlines nearly every week a major insurance company, bank or retailer has its information security compromised and personal information or corporate data is stolen. federal departments, especially defense related agencies, come under attack each and every day. the i.r.s. is not and will never be exempted from this constant threat. in fact, there's reason to believe the i.r.s. will be more frequently targeted in the future. after all, the i.r.s. stores highly sensitive information on each and every american taxpayer from individual taxpayers, from large organizations and to mom and pop businesses to multinational corporations. the challenge of data security matters a great deal to every single taxpayer and will continue to be a i think sl challenge to tax administration in the coming years.

of course data security and the protection of taxpayers information is of the highest importance in the prevention of stolen identity, refund, fraud identity theft and the resulting tax fraud costs taxpayers billions every year. once it occurs it could take months or years for a taxpayer to mitigate the damage. it was out of concern over stolen identity refund fraud that langing member widen launched afternoon investigation this year requesting information from the largest taxpayers and a deb id card companies. we look forward to working with the i.r.s. as we move forward with this investigation and consider policy changes. we also look forward to hearing the report from your preparer working groups and the committee looks forward to weighing in on those matters in the near future. so i welcome our witnesses here today. the i.r.s. commissioner

koskinen and inspector general george. inspector, when i first welcomed you before the committee as chairman, i noted it would help to be the beginning of a new chapter in the long, historic relationship between the revenue service and senate finance committee. i said because the issues before us are too great for that relationship to be anything but open, honest and productive. today's topic is a great example why that relationship is so important. cyberthreats will only continue to grow. and those type of threats go to the core of our voluntary tax system. we must work together to figure out what really has happened and what went wrong in allowing the breach to occur and how we can prevent another successful attack from taking place in the future. finally, i'd like to acknowledge today's hearing occurs during somewhat unusual circumstances. the issue before us is the subject of several recently opened investigations including

a criminal investigation conducted by tigta. i caution members of the committee to be sensitive to these investigations when asking questions of the witnesses, and be aware that they may not be able to provide full answers to every question in this public forum. in spite of these limitations, it is important to discuss this matter today as fully and as candidly as possible. i would then like to turn to senator wyden for his opening remarks. senator wyden: i look forward to working with you and our colleagues on what is a important and bipartisan concern for this committee. three mopts ago the finance committee met on a hearing on the latest i.d. thefts and other scams plaguing taxpayers and said then that wave of attacks sure looks to me like organized crime. today we meet after 104,000 tax

returns have been hoovered up by what appeared to be a sophisticated, organized crime syndicate. the problem continues to spiral with hackers targeting federal agencies state governments, including my own, and private companies alike to steal money and data. one report from the department of homeland security said federal agency's computer systems come under attack hundred of times a day, tens of thousands of times a year. the investigation of the stolen tax returns is ongoing as of this morning. but once again, it seems that the thieves are a step ahead of the authorities. they've gained access to enormous amounts of personal data which is up for purchase at extraordinary costs on the

internet's shadowy corners. these rip-off artists use that data to slip past the security filters at the i.r.s. and steal taxpayers' most sensitive financial information. so it's my view that it is fair to say once again that this conduct fits the definition of organized crime. the thieves who steal taxpayer information could wipe out people's life savings and leave them in financial ruin. they could falsify tax returns next year or further down the road they could take out huge fraudulent home or student loans. and on a bigger scale, the money stolen in the cybercrime wave could be funneled into yet more criminal activity. it could wind up in war zones and there's a possibility it could be used to form acts of

terror without being traced. just like when the white house and department of defense were targeted in the past, this was an attack on the security of americans. i'll be very direct about what's needed here to protect taxpayers from this onslaught of cybercrime, the i.r.s. needs a 21st century i.t. system. now, this is not just a question of resources and it's certainly not a lack of commitment from the i.r.s. staff. it's also a question of expertise. the era of punch cards and paper forms ended long ago. agencies like the i.r.s. need to tap in to the expertise of our leading technology firms, the pros who serve not millions or tens of millions but hundreds of millions of users.

this expertise will allow the pitfalls of the past and implement a 21st i.p. is that products taxpayers privacy and catches the hackers and the cheats and funds our government as efficiently as possible. when that system is in place, congress has to step up and provide the funds necessary to manage those functions effectively. legislators wouldn't call for a department of defense or white house security budgets to be slashed after tiber attacks but the i.r.s. security funding has been shrinking for years. no company would try to defend against modern cybercriminals with technologies 20 to 30 years old but that's what the i.r.s. is stuck using in the absence of the expertise of resources that serve the american taxpayer. the congress must also make sure the i.r.s. has the information it needs to mount the strongest possible fight

against the fraudsters. if the i.r.s. had access to the w-2 and 1099 forms from the beginning of tax season, it would be much easier to catch fraudulent returns early and save taxpayers the nightmare of a stolen refund. chairman hatch and i have developed a bipartisanship proposal to add an extra level of security to distribute unique passwords for individuals to use when they file. and when the taxpayer does become a victim of fraud they ought to get more help undoing the damage more quickly and restoring their credit. it ought to be clear that beefing up cybersecurity that the i.r.s. ought to be a top priority and draw on the technology expertise that exists in my home state and in states across the land. it's my hope that our hearing today will set aside once again the politics of these issues and focus on bipartisan, fresh

ideas on how to best protect our taxpayers. thank you, mr. chairman, i look forward to working with you. mr. hatch: thank you senator. our first witness is commissioner koskinen who has been serving as the head of the internal revenue service since december 2013. mr. koskinen's extensive public and private sector experience has prepared him to confront the many challenges facing the i.r.s. i have a great deal of confidence in commissioner koskinen. i want to thank you, commissioner, for being here with us today. and we're going to -- let me introduce our second witness as well and then have you give your statements. our second witness today is inspector generous ell george of the treasury inspector general for tax administration or tigta. inspector general george has been serving as head of tigta since 2004. he has extensive public service

including working for the house of representatives committee on government reform and oversight. i have a great deal of respect for you, also, mr. george, and want to thank you, mr. inspector general for being here today. so if you will, director koskinen, commissioner koskinen, we'll start with you and hope can you keep your remarks within five minutes because i'm sure we'll have a lot of questions. mr. koskinen: members of the committee and chairman hatch, thank for you the opportunity to appear before you today to provide information on the recent unauthorized attempts to obtain taxpayer data through the i.r.s.'s get transcript online application. securing our systems and protecting taxpayer information is a top priority for the i.r.s., even with our constrained resources as a result of repeated decreased funding the past few years, we continue to devote significant time and attention to this challenge. at the same time, it's clear that criminals have been able to gather increasing amounts of personal data as a result of data breaches at sources

outside the i.r.s. which makes protecting taxpayers increasingly challenging and difficult. the unauthorized attempts to access information using the get transcript application were made on approximate 200,000 taxpayer accounts from questionable email domain and attempts were complex and sophisticated in nature. attempts were made using taxpayers personal information already obtained from otherses outside the i.r.s. it should be noted that the third parties who made these unauthorized attempts to obtain tax account information did not attempt to gain access to the main i.r.s. computer systems that handle tax filing submissions. the main i.r.s. computer system remains secure as do other online i.r.s. applications such as where is my refund. the access get transcripts taxpayers must go through a multistep authentication process to prove their identity and must first submit personal information such as their social security number date of

birth, tax filing status and home address. the taxpayers receives an email from the get transcript system containing a confirmation code they enter to access the application and request a transcript. before the request is processed the taxpayers must respond to several so-called out of wallet questions designed to illicit information that only the taxpayers would normally know such as the amount of their monthly mortgage or car payment. during the middle of may our cybersecurity team noticed unusual activity on the get transcript application. at the time our team thought this might be a denial of service attempt where hackers try to disrupt a website's normal functioning and uncovered questionable attempts to access the get transcript application. of the approximate 100,000 successful attempts to access the get transcript application, only 13,000 possibly fraudulent returns were filed for the tax year 2014 in which the i.r.s. issued refunds totaling $39

million. we're still determining how many of these returns were filed by actual taxpayers and which were filed using stolen identities. for now our biggest concern is for the affected taxpayers to make sure they are protected against fraud in the future. we have marked the accounts of the 200,000 taxpayers whose accounts were attacked by outsiders to prevent someone else from filing a tax return in their name both now and in 2016. letters have already gone out to the approximate 100,000 taxpayers whose tax information was successfully obtained by unauthorized third parties. we're offering credit monitoring at our expense to this group of taxpayers and giving them the opportunity to obtain an identity protection personal identification number or i.p. pen, as it's known and will further safeguard their i.r.s. accounts. we're also in the process of writing into the hundred of thousands of taxpayers whose accounts were not accessed to let them know third parties appeared to have gained access from outside the i.r.s. to personal information such as their social security numbers

and other information. we want them to be able to take steps to safeguard that data. the get transcript application has been taken down while we review options to make it more security without rendering inaccessible to legitimate taxpayers. the problem of crins using information to impersonate taxpayers is not a new one. the problem of tax refund fraud exploded from 2010 to 201. since then we've been making steady progress both in terms of protecting against fraudulent refund claims and prosecuting those who engage in this crime. over the past few years almost 2,000 individuals were convicted with connection to refund fraud related to identity theft. physically as our -- additionally as our processes improved we've stopped fraud at the door. we stopped three million returns before processing, an increase of over 700,000 from the year before. but the criminals continue to

become more sophisticated and creative. as the chairman note, recently held a sitdown meeting with the leaders of the tax software and payroll industries and state tax administrators and we all agreed to build on our cooperative efforts of the past and find new ways to leverage this public-private partnership to help battle identity theft and expect to announce details shortly. congress plays an important role, too and can help by approving the president's 2016 budget request which provides for $101 million specifically devoted to refund theft and fraud. as senator wyden noted the request is to propose filing dates to january 31 of the year following the year for which the information is being reported. that would assist the i.r.s. in identifying fraudulent returns and reduce refund fraud related to identity theft. chairman hatch, ranking member widen and members of the

committee, this concludes my statement and would be happy to answer questions. mr. hatch: we'll now turn to mr. george. mr. george: thank you, chairman hatch, ranking member wyden, members of the committee. thank you for the opportunity to discuss the data breach that occurred at the internal revenue service. on may 26, 2015, the i.r.s. announced criminals had used taxpayer specific data acquired from noni.r.s. sources to gain unauthorized access to information on approximate 100,000 tax accounts through the i.r.s.'s get transcript application. our office of our office continues investigating this incident. according to reports previously from the i.r.s. which we have not yet validated, and individual or individuals succeeded in clearing an authentication process that required knowledge of prior information about the past -- the taxpayer, including social

security number, dates of birth tax filing status, street address, as well as answers to personal identity verification questions that only the taxpayer would know. security of taxpayer data has been dedicated -- designated as the top concern facing the i.r.s. since fiscal year 2011. due to risk in this area we have an audit underway to assess the i.r.s.'s process for identikit taxpayers -- for authenticating taxpayers. information obtained from data breaches and increased availability of personal information on the internet have resulted in a weakening of controls used to authenticate individuals accessing personal data. the risk for this type of on authorized access will continue to grow as the i.r.s. focuses its efforts on delivering taxpayers self assisted

interactive, online tools. more avenues for online assistance also means more opportunities for exportation by hackers and greater risk to the i.r.s. and taxpayers. in prior audits, we identified a number of areas in which the i.r.s. can better protect data and approve -- improve its security posture. for example, we found the i.r.s. had not always applied high risk computer security upgrades known as patches to ensure systems were protected and operated securely. in another audit we found the i.r.s.'s office responsible for addressing cyberattacks was not monitoring a significant percentage of i.r.s. servers which puts the i.r.s.'s networks, data and applications at risk. the i.r.s.'s continuous is under attack by those using the tax administration system for personal gain. these attacks and the methods used to perpetrate them are

constantly changing and require constant monitoring by the i.r.s. two of the most pervasive where it is being perpetrated that impact tax payers are identity theft. the i.r.s. faces a daunting task. this incident that is the subject of the hearing provides a stark reminder that even security controls that may have been adequate in the past can be overcome by hackers who are anonymous persistent, and have access to vast amounts of personal data and knowledge. the i.r.s. needs to be even more vigilant in protecting the confidentiality of taxpayer data appeared otherwise, as shown by these incident taxpayers can be exposed to the loss of privacy and financial damages resulting from identity theft or other financial crimes. we are committed to our mission

of ensuring an effective and efficient tax of ministration system and preventing, detecting, and deterring waste fraud, and abuse. as such, we plan to provide continuing investigative coverage of the i.r.s.'s efforts to protect sensitive taxpayer data and investigate any instances of attempts to corrupt or otherwise interfere with tax of ministration. -- tax administration. thank you for the opportunity to share my views. senator hatch: in your written testimony, you said that they' ve designated the security of taxpayer data as the top concern facing the i.r.s. in every year since 2011. as you stated today. in spite of your concerns, the i.r.s. has not implemented many of the recommendations. about how the i.r.s. can

strengthen its i.t. security. as of march 2015 the i.r.s. had not implemented 44 of the audit recommendations about i.t. security 10 of which were more than three years old. the i.r.s. had disagreed with another 10 recommendations about i.t. security. mr. inspector, if the i.r.s. had fully implemented the past recommendations about i.t. security, do you believe the recent attacks on the get transcript application would have been successful? mr. george: i cannot give you a definitive answer as to whether or not it would've been possible, but i can say it would have been much more difficult had they lamented all the recommendations we make. senator hatch: mr. commissioner, in your testimony would knowledge that the use of stolen identities has exploded

in recent years. now due to the theft of personal information from your agency, there are more than 100,000 new identities on the international black market. as many as 13,000 new fraudulent returns have been filed at a cost to taxpayers of up to $39 million. when it comes to identity theft and tax fraud, i do not think we can adopt a "pay and chase" mentality or we will lose every single time. a stolen identity serve significant -- they are significant problem. but also, not a problem that your agency consult on its own. what your agency can solve is the eas e by which criminals use the stolen information and obtain fraudulent tax return refunds, i should say. news reports indicate that the recent i.r.s. identity thieves may have been in russia. two years ago, there were large

numbers of fraudulent refunds issued to bulgaria, lithuania, and china. i am not asking you to speak about the new investigation. can figure of you tell the committee about more -- what more can be done to stop these thieves from robbery the treasury both at home and abroad? do you feel like you receive the adequate cooperation of the justice department and others in finding and stopping these perpetrators? commissioner koskinen: as noted an increasingly complicated challenge everybody faces in the financial world. i would note as a correction there are not 104,000 new stolen identities. those identities were stolen before the transcript for access. what is available now is for those transcripts out there more details to go along with a stolen identities. there are breaches across the private sector and across the economy, all of that data is

being collected by organized criminals who have a database in the so-called dark net that exceeds the amount of data in the regular web we use. as the inspector general says it is an increasingly compensated challenge. what worked a year ago may not be working anymore today to you continually have to attack that problem. we work very closely with the inspector general and value their input. in many cases, we asked them to do audits of security and the i.t. systems as we go for. in response to your question, we looked at that in terms of the suggestions made about improvements we could make none of t, virtually all of the reports we have recently have looked at our security with regard to our basic database. those reports and those recommendations do not deal with the authentication process for this website. the problem with the e- authentication process for the website is what is a perfectly

secured mechanism that was used by private sector financial institutions is being overtaken by events. senator hatch: foreign criminals are reaching into the federal treasury from abroad. do you get adequate cooperation from foreign governments? commissioner koskinen: we get very good cooperation from the justice department. our criminal investigation division, we have thrown 2000 people in gop are resources -- we have 300 fewer investigators than five years ago. it is a problem when you find as you do that an increasing number of the attacks are coming from criminal syndicates in eastern europe and asia. extradition finding and tracking the signal down is much more difficult. we do not get a lot of cooperation. senator weiden: commissioner, at a hearing in march, i pointed out with the increased sophistication of those involved

in taxpayer i.d. theft looked to me like the work of organized crime. i understand that you have since stated that most taxpayer i.d. theft involves organized crime. you also said that the recent taxpayer i.d. theft involved bulk attempts to access taxpayer records. now, i know the investigation of this latest i.d. theft is ongoing, but from what i have seen thus far, it sure looks to me like this attack was undertaking by an organized crime syndicate that already had access to enormous amounts of data on u.s. taxpayers. would you agree? commissioner koskinen: i would. as a fed, there is an unimaginable amount of personal data as a part of data breaches in the hands of criminals not only here but criminal syndicates around the world --

eastern europe and asia. the battle is becoming increasingly more difficult, not just for us, but for everyone in the private sector. this event is a shot across the bough to remind people of the nature of the battle we are fighting and the sophistication of the enemy. senator wieden: given that you said you agree with my description of the threat, you would describe your challenge as making sure that you're in a position to have a game plan so you can stay ahead of these increasingly sophisticated threats to our taxpayers? commissioner koskinen: whether we will be able to stay ahead or not is the challenge. our goal is to make sure we are even with them and understanding what is going on and being able to protect data and taxpayers from these ongoing attacks. senator weiden: let's talk about the game plan you would have to have. as i say, i think the

sophistication of these organized crime syndicates is such that whenever you close the store, they look for the next one. and that is why i talked about how we are going to try to take them on. it seems to me it comes down to having the people who have the skills and experience to combat the threat. the critical pay a sortie to be able to hire them. and sufficient funding to upgrade the i.r.s. computer security system. is that general he the elements of the kind of strategy that you want to have? commissioner koskinen: those cover most of the certificate points particularly what we call the streamline critical pay. the small number of people that were authorized to hire. our present head of information technology is on streamline critical pay. that was program work pro -- for 14 years. it was not extended. we had to senior sophisticated

i.t. people we cannot hire because they did not want to go through the normal government process. it is critical to us. it is a total authorization -- we are down to 16 as the program runs off. the head of our cyber security and it is critical pay. our program director was critical pay. so that authority is critical for the small number of people we need. we are going to be a world-class experts at dealing not only with technology but with security. senator weiden: what is this committee need to do -- we want to work with you on a bipartisan basis. what does this committee need to do to assist you in executing this game plan, to make sure you have adequate numbers of people in cyber? commissioner koskinen: i appreciate the chairman's note that we need to work on this together. this is not an issue that has a political overtones. this is a challenge that faces every american, faces every

company in this country. as i noted, if we could get w2's and information returns earlier it would allow us to be more effective in detecting theft. to the extent we could get authority to adjust the social security numbers -- the way they are produced on w2's, it would help us ensure that those are not fraudulent. there are others including streamline critical pay that would be helpful. i think the chairman is right. we have not made a point in this presentation the budget is an issue but we are running an antiquated system with some applications that are 50 years old, as noted in some cases, we have not been able to provide patches for all of the upgrades. some of our systems do not have patches because they are no longer supported by the providers. so we obviously do need jointly to figure out what does it take to make sure the system is able to be protected. senator seweiden: if you have i.t.

from the dark ages you're not going to be able to stay on top of these kinds of problems. i'm committed to working with you. i also mentioned in my opening statement, there are some very good people in the technology sector, people who run major tech firms that i think would also be available to work with you. we are committed to making sure that you understand there is a bipartisan effort to help you put that game plan in place. senator grassley: i thank you for coming to -- for this conversation and the reason for that is the theft of personal, private tax information of over 100,000 taxpayers is deeply concerned because our whole tax system is based on the proposition of voluntary compliance and privacy and all that. so i'm asking about a letter i sent to you. asking a number of questions related to data breach. i do not expect those answers

now, but i want to find out when i'm going to get answers to my letters. this would include request for documents that should shed light on whether the i.r.s. carefully consider security risks prior to instituting the get transcript online service. my letter asks that you provide a response by june 4. and it was sent last week. some examples of what we are concerned about is whether or not you had a risk assessment plan, and implementation plan and mitigation plans. those are some of the documents i am asking for. so, do you have any idea where my request stands in the process? do you expect to be able to fully respond to my letter by june 4? if not when do you expect that i will be able to get a response? commissioner koskinen: that is a good question. as you know, i'm committed to

the chairman that my confirmation hearing that we treat letters from the hill very seriously. they are a high priority. sometimes i get a request to give a response within a week to a lot of data that is difficult. but our goal is to not make this delayed any longer than we can. the amount of information you want probably makes it unlikely you will get it by the end of this week. but certainly by next week, we expect to be able to provide you that data. the chairman has a pending request, thoughtful request about our entire i.t. program which is in the process of coming back to him. it has taken longer than we'd like that it will be 50 pages long with very instructive detail. i found it interesting to read about the priorities we have, the challenges we have faced over time and how we have responded. but we will point out to you -- we take risks seriously when this get transcript was put up. when any new application is put up, we look at the risks. whenever we have a program, we work with the inspector general to see it is it being set up appropriately, are there protections?

it is an important question, one that as we move along not only do we have risk mitigation plans when we start, we monitor as we go forward each year, one of the schemes, what is going on with identity theft? we are pinged, not necessarily attacked, but people checking to see where we are over one billion times the. we have security going on every day. senator hatch: we have a vote on. senator grassley will finish his questions. next is senator carper. i will try to get back by then. in that order. senator grassley: i think i heard you respond by june 4 by next week. mr. george ig's are their important offices as far as i am concerned. did your office evaluate the security majors -- measures put

in place by the get transcript service before after when online, and if so, what were your office's findings? did the i.r.s. fully comply with any recommendation you hated made ? mr. george: we did take a look at an earlier iteration of the get transcript program. at that time made recommendations that we believe are implemented. and a subsequent version of it we have not taken a look at u ntil now. obviously, we will be looking at that. senator grassley: reportedly the attacks began in february, but the i.r.s. failed to notice suspicious aivity until mid-may. why wasn't the i.r.s. able to detect the activity when it initially began? commissioner koskinen: last fili ng season there were 23 million successful downloads on the get transcript application.

it is a huge volume. we now know when it started by going back through our logs. we log every transaction. they were shrouded under the choose all you of request going out legitimately. when the filing season ended, i think what happened was that volume dropped. then said i up again. by that time, the volume of legitimate quest had dropped and the activity became visible to us. i am not sure that people are expected to be visible. that is when we found it. it was in mid-may when we noticed. first we thought it was a denial of service attack because things were backing up. within a couple days, our security people went through and figured out it was not that. it was, in fact, unauthorized attempts to access data. as soon as they found that out, within a day or two, they sat down with us. we advised the hill. and as i say, i am delighted we have been able to notify the 104,000 taxpayers already.

senator grassley: my time is up. i will submit to questions. one to mr. k and one to the i.g. for an answer in writing, please. senator: it is great to see you both. we appreciate your presence today. we appreciate your service to our country. i want to start off by going back to commissioner koskinen: in talking about what the i.r.s. is doing in reaching out to those citizens those taxpayers whose information may have been compromised and try to help them in time of uncertainty and a time of concern and owrry. -- and worry. a lot of us use the golden rule to guide us in our lives. treat other people the way we want to be treated. tommy how the i.r.s. is using -- tell me how the i.r.s. is using the golden rule to reach out to people whose information may have been put at risk? commissioner koskinen: the

investigation is still going on by ourselves, by the inspector general, but as soon as we knew there had been inappropriate access and data had been released, our first concern was taxpayers. we regret that this attack took place. we understand that it is such a matter e-- it is a traumatic event. we deal with the victims of identity fraud virtually every day. our goal is even while we are trying to get to the bottom of it, once we are able to identify the taxpayers were information had gone out, our goal was to get that notice to them as quickly as we could. we secure their accounts and secure the accounts of the other 100,000 even though no data one out, so they would not be false refunds filed against their social security numbers. as i say we completed the mailings to the 104,000. we are offering them credit protection. we are also offering them to authenticate themselves and get an i.p. pin. to give them for

the security we have done everything we think we can do. and we have done it as quickly as we could, because we think it is important for them to have that information. senator: did you see the letters have been center are being sent? commissioner koskinen: the letters are in the mail. the letters for the 104,000. we are now processing the letter for the 100,000 where no data escaped. senator: do these letters include phone numbers to book and call to get further have further conversation, gain further assurances? commissioner koskinen: there are numbers to call. the ability to get us on the phone is not as good as we would like it to be. we are suggesting they go to the website first of they have questions. we've already had people showing up at our taxpayer assistance centers and we are providing them assistance as well. senator: sometimes people ask me why i've had some success

in my life. i surrounded myself with people smarter than me. it is not hard to find him. i want to talk about, i want to go back to the issue of streamline critical pay. i'd like for us, i will ask you to answer for the record, if we were to restore this program which i think ended in 2013, if we were to fully fund this program, what would be the cost on an annual basis? compare that for us with the cost of the breach. what is this cost in the treasury as we attempt to respond to it to date. if you have an off the top of your head, that would be fine. i would love to know what kind of return we get in the investment. commissioner koskinen: inspector general did a review of the program that he published last december. as a general matter, it appeared that the cost of the government was $500,000 a year.

pay increase differential is modest. we only had 30 people that had taken advantage of it. some of them get paid less than seniors. for the $400,000, we think you get a great return. the 13 million returns that went through with refunds out of the 140,000 have refunds totaling 39 million dollars. some of those were turn out to be real taxpayers. but the return on investment is significant. the head of our i.t. program who is wonderful, is a streamline critical pay. we lost three people who were great data analytics people. senator: inspector george, can you give me a number 10 to 1? i'm going to ask you to respond to that for the record. mr. george: we did find the program was operated successfully and it was justified. senator: thank you. outside help. you are not in this by yourself.

you have other federal agencies that have responsibilities. to be of assistance to the i.r.s. one is the department of homeland security. i would ask you for the record, what help of they provided? is there more that they another agency should be doing? commissioner koskinen: we have regular communications with homeland security. i have met with the secretary of homeland security at your suggestion. they provide us technical expertise. we alerted them immediately when even went we thought it was a denial of service attack, that this is an issue they needed to know. we alerted the inspector general. holman security has been very supportive. what they provide is -- homeland security has been very supportive. they provide updated information across the spectrum. there is a good working relationship of agencies under attack trying to see what are the patterns, what is going on what can we learn from each other? senator: thank you both very much. senator insley: i read your

testimony. i thought of other possibilities for the data breach. i was reminded of them when i filed my taxes i had overpaid. and i don't have electronic transfer to the bank, because i'm not going to share that information with the i.r.s. so i received my tax refund in an envelope. what surprised me was in the envelope there was a flyer from the consumer financial protection bureau. the consumer financial protection bureau has the power to examine and reporting requirements on financial institutions and all kinds of regulations and on personal information. they are collecting everything -- people are worried about the national security administration. they ought to worry about the consumer financial protection bureau. they are getting all of our data all the time. and that is one of the possibilities for a security breach. i do not believe the authority extends to the i.r.s. to solicit

american stories about their money through the consumer financial protection bureau. additionally since victims cymer financial protection bureau is funded by transferred of nonappropriated funds from the federal reserve system combined to earnings before it ever gets to the general fund, i question whether it is appropriate to advertise the consumer financial protection bureau as the i.r.s. did by including this mailing with the tax refund. lastly because it is supposed to be an independent organization, i do not believe the treasury department should be soliciting information on behalf of the entity. so i'd appreciate answers to the following questions. some will be more detailed than the time we have. but i would like to know what authority the treasury department relied on to include that information in the i.r.s. tax refunds? what agency paid to print and mail those flyers. have you respected all the boundaries concerning

confidential taxpayer information? could hackers be getting data from the consumer financial protection bureau athatthat is used with the i.r.s. from data that may be the i.r.s. is sharing with that department? mr. commissioner, some of those i will put in more detail for a written answer, but my best chance of getting an answer is right now. how did that happen to wind up in my statement? commissioner koskinen: first, i should make a correction. i talked about 13 million returns. it is 13,000 returns had a false refund, potentially false refund or they may have been real taxpayers. the previous question. with regard to this, we provide taxpayers with information that may be of support to them particularly in financial matters. under our protection of taxpayer data, we do not share information with other federal agencies unless unless there is

a statutory authorization for that to my knowledge, there is not one with the consumer protection bureau. i will be happy to get you further details as to who paid for the flyer, white was put in their? we provide information to taxpayers for their assistance and their information in ways that they be hopeful to them. we are not asking for them to provide us additional information or in those filings that we will give you more detailed information. i will get you that information, again, if you will provide the detail of that question to do not wait for the record. if he will send me a note, i will get you the answer quickly. senator insley: i know there is a cost of putting something in an envelope. different question. unless an tax return preparers may are we are preying on uninformed taxpayers. i did not exactly see that in the testimony. but i know that is one of the

possibilities for places where people may be getting the information. to what degree is the i.r.s. working to eliminate these fraudulent taxpayer return people? commissioner koskinen: we monitor the tax preparers. we've actually had criminal prosecutions against a number that have taken advantage of their clients. we are concerned about not only criminal tax preparers but uninformed tax preparers. we requested legislation that would allow us to require a minimum qualifications for a tax preparer. to go into low income and immigrant communities, and you'll see people advertising we get you a big refund. they do not say whether you are entitled to it or not. that is what they are up to. so, to the extent we can, we have a voluntary program that provides continuing education for taxpayers who want to sign up. but we monitor fraudulent returns and if there is a pattern that they come from an individual preparer or group of preparers. we refer those

cases for prosecution. senator: i will have to put us into temporary recess. while i go vote. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> last month in texas, two gunmen opened fire outside a prophet mohammed cartoon contest and were later killed by police. today, counterterrorism officials will testify about the shooting and terrorism threats on u.s. soil. we will have live coverage from the house homeland security committee at 10:00 a.m. eastern on c-span 3. later in the day, former republican senator who also served as rhode island's governor will announce he is running for president as a democrat. that is live at 5:30 eastern also on c-span 3. >> this summer pulse tv will cover book festivals around the country and top nonfiction authors and books. this weekend, we are live from the chicago tribune printers wrote lit fest, -- printers row

lit fest, including your phone calls. near the end of june, watch for the and you'll -- the annual roosevelt reading festival. in the middle of july, we are live at the harlem book fair, the nation's flagship african-american literary event with interviews and panel discussions. at the beginning of september we are live from the nation's capital for the national book festival celebrating its 15th year. at a few of the events this summer on c-span's book tv. >> president obama awarded the medal of honor posthumously to armor sergeant shemin and henry johnson for their courage and actions during world war i. it has been reported that these two army veterans may have been denied this honor during our lifetimes because of religious and racial discrimination. this ceremony was held in the east room of the white house. ♪

["hail to the chief" playing] >> ladies and gentlemen, the president of the united states. ♪ >> we read in the sacred songs "even were i to walk in a ravine as dark as death, i fear no danger for you are at my side. your staff and your crook are

there. let us pray. all powerful every living lord of all, may you guide this time, this gathering as we remain mindful of the costs paid fo rour liberty. we gather and gratitude for the men we recognize today, for their courage, their faithfulness, and their selfless service. may the lives of sergeants henry johnson and william shemin remi nd us the soldier's heart, the soldier spirit and the soldier soul are everything. keep us mindful always of these men, of their acts of valor their witness to the indomitable human capacity for good, even in the face of the most inhuman conditions of the battlefield. may these soldiers, their acts

of hero is him, continued to form the fabric of our nation's unyielding devotion to protect the dignity of all humanity, of life liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. let us take to heart these words once spoken after battle, that i s "for us the living to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought who have nobly advanced. god of redemption and grace, i ask these things in your name. amen. >> amen. president obama: good morning, everybody. please be seated. welcome to the white house. nearly 100 years ago, a 16-year-old kid from the midwest named frank buckles headed to europe's western front.

an ambulance driver, he carried the wounded to safety. he lived to see our troops ship off to another war in europe. and one in korea. vietnam. iraq. afghanistan. and frank buckles became a quietly powerful advocate for our veterans, and remained that way until he passed away four years ago -- america's last surviving veteran of world war i. on the day frank was laid to rest in arlington national cemetery, vice president biden and i went to pay our respects. and we weren't alone. americans from across the country came out to express their gratitude as well. they were of different ages different races, some military some not. most had never met frank. but all of them braved a cold winter's day to offer a final

tribute to a man with whom they shared a powerful conviction -- that no one who serves our country should ever be forgotten. we are a nation -- a people -- who remember our heroes. we take seriously our responsibility to only send them when war is necessary. we strive to care for them and their families when they come home. we never forget their sacrifice. and we believe that it's never too late to say thank you. that's why we're here this morning. today, america honors two of her sons who served in world war i nearly a century ago. these two soldiers were roughly the same age, dropped into the battlefields of france at roughly the same time. they both risked their own lives

to save the lives of others. they both left us decades ago before we could give them the full recognition that they deserved. but it's never too late to say thank you. today, we present america's highest military decoration, the medal of honor, to private henry johnson and sergeant william shemin. i want to begin by welcoming and thanking everyone who made this day possible -- family friends admirers. some of you have worked for years to honor these heroes, to give them the honor they should have received a long time ago. we are grateful that you never gave up. we are appreciative of your efforts. as a young man henry johnson joined millions of other african-americans on the great migration from the rural south

to the industrial north -- a people in search of a better life. he landed in albany, where he mixed sodas at a pharmacy, worked in a coal yard and as a porter at a train station. and when the united states entered world war i, henry enlisted. he joined one of only a few units that he could -- the all-black 369th infantry regiment. the harlem hellfighters. and soon, he was headed overseas. at the time, our military was segregated. most black soldiers served in labor battalions, not combat units. but general pershing sent the 369th to fight with the french army, which accepted them as their own. quickly, the hellfighters lived up to their name. and in the early hours of may 15, 1918, henry johnson became a legend.

his battalion was in northern france, tucked into a trench. some slept -- but he couldn't. henry and another soldier, needham roberts, stood sentry along no man's land. in the pre-dawn, it was pitch black, and silent. and then -- a click -- the sound of wire cutters. a german raiding party -- at least a dozen soldiers, maybe more -- fired a hail of bullets. henry fired back until his rifle was empty. then he and needham threw grenades. both of them were hit. needham lost consciousness. two enemy soldiers began to carry him away while another provided cover, firing at henry. but henry refused to let them take his brother in arms. he shoved another magazine into his rifle. it jammed. he turned the gun around and swung it at one of the enemy knocking him down. then he grabbed the only weapon

he had left -- his bolo knife -- and went to rescue needham. henry took down one enemy soldier, then the other. the soldier he'd knocked down with his rifle recovered, and henry was wounded again. but armed with just his knife henry took him down, too. and finally, reinforcements arrived and the last enemy soldier fled. as the sun rose, the scale of what happened became clear. in just a few minutes of fighting, two americans had defeated an entire raiding party. and henry johnson saved his fellow soldier from being taken prisoner. henry became one of our most famous soldiers of the war. his picture was printed on recruitment posters and ads for victory war stamps. former president teddy roosevelt wrote that he was one of the bravest men in the war. in 1919, henry rode triumphantly

in a victory parade. crowds lined fifth avenue for miles, cheering this american soldier. henry was one of the first americans to receive france's highest award for valor. but his own nation didn't award him anything - not even the purple heart, though he had been wounded 21 times. nothing for his bravery, though he had saved a fellow solder at great risk to himself. his injuries left him crippled. he couldn't find work. his marriage fell apart. and in his early 30s, he passed away. now, america can't change what happened to henry johnson. we can't change what happened to too many soldiers like him, who went uncelebrated because our nation judged them by the color of their skin and not the content of their character. but we can do our best to make

it right. in 1996, president clinton awarded henry johnson a purple heart. and today, 97 years after his extraordinary acts of courage and selflessness, i'm proud to award him the medal of honor. we are honored to be joined today by some very special guests - veterans of henry's regiment, the 369th. thank you, to each of you, for your service. and i would ask command sergeant major louis wilson of the new york national guard to come forward and accept this medal on private johnson's behalf. [applause]

military aide: the president of the united states of america authorized buy act of congress march 3, 1863, has awarded in the name of congress the medal of honor to private henry johnson, united states army. private henry johnson distinguished himself by extraordinary acts of heroism at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as a member of company c, 369th infantry regiment, 93rd infantry division, american expeditionary forces, on may 15, 1918, during combat operations against the enemy on the front lines of the western front in france. in the early morning hours private johnson and another soldier were on sentry duty at a forward outpost when they received a surprise attack from the german raiding party consisting of at least 12 soldiers. while under intense enemy fire and despite receiving significant wounds, private johnson mounted a brave retaliation, resulting in several enemy casualties.

when his fellow soldier was badly wounded and being carried away by the enemy, private johnson exposed himself to great danger by advancing from his position to engage the two enemy captors in hand-to-hand combat. wielding only a knife and gravely wounded himself, private johnson continued fighting defeating the two captors and rescuing the wounded soldier. displaying great courage, he continued to hold back the larger enemy force until the defeated enemy retreated, leaving behind a large cache of weapons and equipment and providing valuable intelligence. without private johnson's quick actions and continued fighting even in the face of almost certain death, the enemy might have succeeded in capturing prisoners in the outpost and abandoning valuable intelligence. private johnson's extraordinary heroism and selflessness above and beyond the call of duty are in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself company c, 369th infantry regiment, 93rd infantry division, and the united states

army. [applause] president obama: growing up in bayonne, new jersey, william shemin loved sports -- football,

wrestling, boxing, swimming. if it required physical and mental toughness, and it made your heart pump, your muscles ache, he was all in. as a teenager, he even played semi-pro baseball. so when america entered the war, and posters asked if he was tough enough, there was no question about it -- he was going to serve. too young to enlist? no problem. he puffed his chest and lied about his age. [laughter] and that's how william shemin joined the 47th infantry regiment, 4th division, and shipped out for france. on august 7, 1918, on the western front, the allies were hunkered down in one trench, the germans in another, separated by about 150 yards of open space -- just a football field and a half. but that open space was a

bloodbath. soldier after soldier ventured out, and soldier after soldier was mowed down. so those still in the trenches were left with a terrible choice -- die trying to rescue your fellow soldier, or watch him die, knowing that part of you will die along with him. william shemin couldn't stand to watch. he ran out into the hell of no man's land and dragged a wounded comrade to safety. then he did it again, and again. three times he raced through heavy machine gunfire. three times he carried his fellow soldiers to safety. the battle stretched on for days. eventually, the platoon's leadership broke down. too many officers had become casualties. so william stepped up and took command. he reorganized the depleted squads.

every time there was a lull in combat, he led rescues of the wounded. as a lieutenant later described it, william was "cool, calm, intelligent, and personally utterly fearless." that young kid who lied about his age grew up fast in war. and he received accolades for his valor, including the distinguished service cross. when he came home, william went to school for forestry and began a nursery business in the bronx. it was hard work, lots of physical labor -- just like he liked it. he married a red-head, blue-eyed woman named bertha schiffer, and they had three children who gave them 14 grandchildren. he bought a house upstate, where the grandkids spent their summers swimming and riding horses. he taught them how to salute. he taught them the correct way to raise the flag every morning and lower and fold it every night. he taught them how to be americans.

william stayed in touch with his fellow veterans, too. and when world war ii came william went and talked to the army about signing up again. by then, his war injuries had given him a terrible limp. but he treated that limp just like he treated his age all those years ago -- pay no attention to that, he said. he knew how to build roads, he knew camouflage -- maybe there was a place for him in this war, too. to bertha's great relief, the army said that the best thing william could do for his country was to keep running his business and take care of his family. [laughter] his daughter, elsie -- who's here today with what seems like a platoon of shemins [laughter] -- has a theory about what drove her father to serve. he was the son of russian immigrants, and he was devoted to his jewish faith. "his family lived through the pogroms," she says. "they saw towns destroyed and

children killed. and then they came to america. and here they found a haven -- a home -- success -- and my father and his sister both went to college. all that, in one generation! that's what america meant to him. and that's why he'd do anything for this country." well, elsie, as much as america meant to your father, he means even more to america. it takes our nation too long sometimes to say so -- because sergeant shemin served at a time when the contributions and heroism of jewish americans in uniform were too often overlooked. but william shemin saved american lives. he represented our nation with honor. and so it is my privilege, on behalf of the american people to make this right and finally award the medal of honor to sergeant william shemin. i want to invite his daughters

-- elsie and ina -- 86 and 83, and gorgeous -- [laughter] -- to accept this medal on their father's behalf. [applause] military aide: the president of the united states of america, authorized by act of congress, march 3, 1863, has awarded in the name of congress the medal of honor to sergeant william shemin, united states army. sergeant william shemin distinguished himself by extraordinary acts of heroism at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while

serving as a rifleman with g company, 2nd battalion, 47th infantry regiment, 4th division american expeditionary forces in connection with combat operations against an armed enemy on the vesle river, near bazoches, france from august 7th to august 9, 1918. sergeant shemin upon three different occasions left cover and crossed an open space of 150 yards, repeatedly exposing himself to heavy machine gun and rifle fire to rescue wounded. after officers and seniors noncommissioned officers had become casualties, sergeant shemin took command of the platoon and displayed great initiative under fire until wounded on august 9th. sergeant shemin's extraordinary heroism and selflessness above and beyond the call of duty are in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself with g company, 2nd battalion, 47th infantry regiment, 4th division, american expeditionary forces, and the united states army.

[applause]

>> way to go, else! [laughter] president obama: well, it has taken a long time for henry johnson and william shemin to receive the recognition they deserve. and there are surely others whose heroism is still unacknowledged and uncelebrated. so we have work to do, as a nation, to make sure that all of our heroes' stories are told. and we'll keep at it, no matter how long it takes. america is the country we are today because of people like henry and william -americans who

signed up to serve, and rose to meet their responsibilities -- and then went beyond. the least we can do is to say -- we know who you are. we know what you did for us. we are forever grateful. may god bless the fallen of all of our wars. may he watch over our veterans and their families and all those who serve today. may god bless the united states of america. with that, i'd ask the chaplain to return to the podium for a benediction. >> lord of all, as we go forward today we ask you to instill within us your peace, your courage, your strength. lead ut s to all that is

good and brings honor to your creation. help us defeat the evils we face every day. bless us with the wisdom to celebrate and recognize our capacity for good to free the oppressed. let us serve all with valor as these men have shown and witnessed to us today. be upon us now and remain with us always. amen. >> amen. president obama: with that, we conclude the formal ceremony. but i welcome everybody to join in a wonderful reception. and let's give our medal of honor winners one big round of applause. [applause]

thank you, everybody. [applause] >> love you! >>president obama: lobe ve you back! ♪ >> washington journal" is next. the house will finish up work on the commerce, justice, and

science spending bill and start debate on the 2016 transportation hud spending measure. watch live house coverage on c-span. later today former republican senator who also served as rhode island's governor will announce he is running for president as a democrat. we will have live coverage of 5:30 eastern on our companion network c-span 3. coming up this hour, a preview of several on them is dealing with state marijuana laws which will be debated on the house floor. congressman earl blumenauer who serves on the ways and means committee will join us. then house oversight committee member congressman thomas massie will discuss changes to the nsa surveillance program after the senate approved renewing the last provisions of the patriot act. and as part of our spotlight on

magazines this series, new -- "new republic" contributor will talk about her article on fate hanley leave -- pa him ♪ host: good morning. after eight years debate 23 republicans joined 53 democrat to pass the usa freedom act yesterday by a vote of 67-32. in the approved the bill ending the nsa's bulk data collection. president obama signed into law last night. we will begin with your thoughts on this fight in congress and reforms made under the new law feared republicans