he then said what we can do is help them in the ways that they want help from us. the conversation we need to have is that one. you hit the nail on the head a couple of times. when we ask people if this is true for the majority of countries, what is the number one thing you admire most about america, liberty and freedom are the first thing they say and technology is the second thing. >> i am in no way saying that people don't want the outcomes of democracy and good government. i'm just saying that democracy has a really bad brand with those people right now. we have made a plethora of very bad policy decisions in the region, especially in the last 15 years. moving forward, i point was, we should not simply just do what is popular, because what is popular and what has become popular at this late date in the arab spring is not something that we can get behind in a lot of countries. mr. hadley: i'm going to bring this to a close and we will do some other questions.

i think there are two cautions. just because it is short-term popularity does not ensure a true chart for a future of a prosperous and stable middle east. secondly, i have to add a footnote. america does have its own interests, and sometimes, those interests contradicted the preferences of the people of the region. when your country is attacked from that region, you have to respond and do things that are many times going to be unpopular. one of the things we have to do, if we get this kind of understanding of the region, we are going to have to put a filter on our own national interests. jessica, do we have any twitter questions at this point? no.

>> i think the big issue that i have seen from these graphs and data, it is jobs, jobs, jobs. you have young people who want prosperity. the big short-term challenge is how do you create jobs. do you create jobs through innovation? the region has a lot of liquidity. they have $2.5 trillion in exchange returns. how do you bring -- have you get people to invest? i say innovation, not imitation. mr. hadley: we have a task force that is working on that very question. that is clearly part of the study. jessica, do you have a twitter question? jessica: we do. they want to know how can we

harness public/private partnerships better to effectively meet the needs and wants of the people in the region? jim: i would refer you back to the same speech i am talking about, the may 2011 speech, the fifth anniversary of -- the fourth anniversary of the cairo speech. he talked about all of that. when he said here is what we can do, what he talked about was a fund that would promote the private/public partnerships to create jobs, to help build the middle class in tunisia and egypt, because they were going to be the catalyst that would make democracy move forward. we couldn't teach democracy, we could rather create the structures that would enable it. i thought that speech was very thoughtful in that regard. i think there are plenty of ideas out there. i think the question is getting

the will on the part of government to make those programs available and actually pushed them forward. i know aid does have programs from our and like that. they are underfunded programs. former secretary albright: what happened as a result of the cairo speech, secretary clinton wanted to have these partners from the beginning. i chaired that. there is a local chapter in tunisia. we just had an investor conference in tunisia in order to bring public/private partnerships together. that is a model that works very well for trying to figure out how to develop the jobs. mr. hadley: we are now down to the 4:00 hour so i will take one more question and one more response and then we will adjourn.

those of you who have to leave can do so. those who want to stay, we will have a reception out in the hall. hopefully, a number of you can continue this conversation. there was a hand up here. >> my name is erica and i am with u.s. aid. thank you for speaking to the work we do. i was wondering if you could perhaps talk a little bit more about what role u.s. aid can have in the region, because a lot of the findings were very interesting. also talked to some of the needs they have like jobs will stop in

addition, some of the discussions that we have been having have been around should we get back to more basic development projects, such as infrastructure building, or education, or some of the more basic, gritty projects we are known for doing? >> i would strongly advise from my experience traveling to the region the latter. the current minister, the basic needs that poor people go through in egypt has become a way to improve ways in which subsidized bread is brought to the ovens people stand in front of every day.

u.s. aid should be helping to fix that. it should be helping to fix nursing in a place like egypt. i happen to be more familiar with that. those are the projects that are apolitical, and that no one can blacklist. it would be hard to say that the u.s. was poisoning the area if they were helping the water system. that will probably not get too much play. you are in it for the long haul. you were not interested in any kind of political gain. you are doing this because this is a long-term commitment. it has nothing to do with what president in office, or any of that. you demonstrate this is the interest of the american people moving forward in the long-term.

that is what has value. >> make the projects demand driven. we also can have partners on the ground to help. i think it is increasingly becoming more demand driven. >> we come to the end of our time. i want to thank everyone, and secretary albright, and everyone in the audience. please give a round of applause. [no audio] [applause] >> coming up on c-span, a hearing on the garland shooting. later, senate banking committee hearing on the export import bank. on the next washington journal

a look at the government data collection program with julian sanchez. then a discussion on how radical islam's recruit followers. and the executive director of the national center for transgender equality on transgender rights. life every morning at 7:00 a.m. eastern. you can comment on facebook, or twitter. today the defense department gives an update on operation inherit resolve. it discusses combating isis. we will have the central commander lieutenant general jon tester and -- hesterman. here are some of our featured

programs this weekend on the c-span network. on c-span2, book tv is live. our two day coverage begins on saturday. speakers include senior advisor to president obama daniel axelrod, and lazarus dean on the last days of that -- of american spaceflight. on sunday, we continue our live coverage with our three hour in-depth program. we will be live from the stage. he will be taking your phone calls. following that, on his book "unforgettable." and alice on the results of the war on drugs in disadvantaged neighborhoods. on american history tv on

c-span3, join us for features beginning on sunday. one on the four days of gemini 4. at 4:30, thousands of pictures capturing those images and the stories behind them. then we visit with senator lamar alexander as he shares a stories behind political mementos. at 630 -- 6:30, they discuss their vietnam war experiences at the opening of the exhibit. get our complete schedule at c-span.org. >> on may 3 two gunman opened fire in garland texas.

next the homeland security committee is holding a hearing on the shooting, and terrorist threats in the u.s. >> the committee on homeland security will come to order. the purpose of this hearing is to receive testimony regarding increasing threat from violent islamic extremist groups such as isis who use the internet and social media to recruit fighter, share information, and inspire direct attacks. before i recognize myself for an opening statement i mind like to recommend daniel donovan of new york, we have another new yorker on this committee. we are building a relationship here. his experience as a district attorney and dedication to

public service make him i believe a valuable asset to this committee and we are happy to have you, sir. appreciate it. >> gentlemen? >> i yield for the gentlemen from new york. >> i would like to welcome mr. donovan. he is an outstanding district attorney, public servant and will work across the aisle. it is great to have you on board. >> ms. rice? >> as a democrat i would like to welcome my former colleague former da dan donovan. great too you here and looking forward to working with you. thank you, mr. chairman. >> anybody else like to say hi? >> on a more serious topic yesterday in boston reports are emerging that a man was killed by federal law enforcement officers after lunging at them

with a knife. he was being investigated by the boston joint terrorism task force after communicating with and spreading isis propaganda online. known associates of the man are being arrested as we speak. these cases are a reminder of the dangers posed by individuals radicalized by social media. elton simpson, in garland, fired off tweets declaring loyalty to the islamic state and urged others to do the same. since then, texas attack, the decision to terrorize the prophet mohammed cartoon contest that islamists had signaled the event as a target. simpson told followers to follow

a 20-year-old british foreign fighter embedded with isis in syria, and one of the group's top recruiters who has been linked to the sent com attack earlier this year. he issued a warning that same night stating quote the knives have been sharpened and soon we will come to your streets with death and slaughter. this attack shows a new era in which terrorism has gone viral. extremist issued a call to arms to attack a radicalized follower he heeded the call and made sure information spread and motivated more. social networks are an extension of the battlefield overseas turning home-grown extremist into attackers.

the proliferation of material online is extending a new battle. we are no longer hunting terrorists living in caves and only communicate through cure -- careers. we are facing an enemy to people whose violence is posted and promoted over the internet. the threat level at military basis across the country was elevated after isis supporters posted the names of military members serves. they quickly spread this on socliam media. inspiring fanatics can receive updates from extremist via twitter watch isis blood lust on youtube, view jihad selfies on instagram, read religious justifications for murder on

just paste it and find travel guides to the battlefield on ask fm jihad. recruiters are mastering the ability to prey on susceptible youth seeking out users who have questions about islam or want to know what life is like in the so-called islamic state. they engage, establish bonds of trust, and assess the commitment of their potential recruits. from there extremist direct users to continue the conversation on more apps and secure communication hide the message from intelligence agencies. such communication involves advice for terror safe havens, contact information for smugglers or the membership process for joining isis.

i know the people before us today are disturbed by the trend joining us. mobile apps like kick and what is up and apps like whicker and sure spot are allowing extremist to communicate outside of the view of law enforcement isis attempts to use the dark or deep web with just as concerning. these websites hide ip addresses and can't be reached by search engines giving terrorist another means by which they can recruit fighters, share intelligence raise funds. yesterday in boston, they tailored the message for

specific audiences and in doing so it projects power beyond the growing safe havens by amp amplifying battlefield susceptive people. this helps them achieve their self proclaimed caliphate. it stands in stark contrastto al-qaeda's past outreach that relied on top down messaging and propaganda more difficult for inspiring jihadist to find. instead, isis is taking a grassroots approach to terror seeding the oppressive world view from the ground up. isis is using its multi platform engagement to create a subculture that supports violent behavior and encourages attacks against the united states and its allies. they are a change for spreading

terror and require from us a shift in the counter terrorism intelligence and operations. for example, we can start by doing what the fbi director suggested and that is shaking the trees more aggressively to quickly identify and engage potential home-grown jihadist. but this is a new front in the war against terror and it will require a new approach with a focus on the battle space. i am grateful for the three witnesses we have here today that are dealing firsthand on the front lines with how this is going viral. i look forward to hearing the testimony, and recommendations for confronting this challenge. with that, i recognize the ranking member. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you for holding today's hearing. on may 3, the defense initiative which is recognized as a hate group, organized a

mohammed art exhibit. two extremists attacked police that were providing security to that event. that resulted in the wounding of a police officer officer. according to the fbi, hours before the garland attack, a bulletin was issued to local police stating that one of the assailants may have an interest in the event. unfortunately, the local police stated that the bulletin was not received. by no means am i saying that this bulletin would have changed the outcome of the situation. i do think this illustrates that we need to continue looking into information sharing. also we need to listen to boots on the ground on how to recognize acts of home-grown

violence. in the days following the attacks, supporters of isil praised to the attacks. it was discovered one of the gunmen detailed his plan to travel to syria. the plans were disrupted when the fbi arrested some people that planned to travel with him. it also came to light that he engage with other isil followers around the world. mr. chairman, we know the threats from foreign and domestic terror groups are not going away overnight. using the internet and social media to recruit members, plan attacks and spread ideologies is not a novel. as it was pointed out in a hearing in february, exultation of social media plays a

prominent role in the ability to recruit fighters from around the world. as we look at social media and how violent extremist propaganda is playing, we must look at ways to counter this. both sides of the aisle are engaged in this examination of the countering violent extremism strategy. it has a vital role to play in carrying out the strategy as evidenced by the fact that there's a dedicated coordinator working. mr. chairman, at this time i request this committee have an open oversight hearing where we can take testimony from the coordinator about the role of the department in implementing the strategy. furthermore, we know more work remains, and that our partners are able to stop, edited a five

foreign fighters at their borders. last friday, the council issued a statement urging countries to enforce border control that allows suspected terrorists to travel across international borders. the direct order also stated in the hearing that there was work to be done in this area. i know the committee has a task force that is examining this issue, and we should be receiving their recommendation soon. mr. chairman, as i stated in our last hearing, we all have to -- have a stake to prevent terrorist attacks. accordingly, i encourage this committee to continue serious discussions on how to counter violent extremism while protecting constitutional rights. we need to foster greater

information sharing among diverse partners, and seek new ways to work together to pursue effective approaches to violent extremism. with that, i yield back. >> thank you, ranking member. the gentleman from texas the chairman of the rules committee also represents garland, texas. he should be allowed to participate with his hearing. the gentleman from texas is recognized. >> i would like to be recognized. i appreciate your indulgence, and i would yield my two minutes. >> thank you very much. my thanks to the chairman, my colleague from san antonio for kindly yielding time to me.

i want to thank the young chairman from homeland security as well. and the ranking member, my good friend bennie thompson, and members of the committee. thank you for inviting me to participate in today's hearing to discuss the terrorists attack in garland, texas. as the proverb presented it of the 32nd congressional district i am pleased to notify each of you that all of north texas is committed to fighting terrorism. specifically, the city of garland is a diverse all-american city, that attracts families with its thriving economy and growing opportunities. since 1891, this city has grown from a small cotton farming community to a thriving metropolitan area outside of dallas. it has almost a quarter million people that call garland, texas

home. the mayor, doug atlas, is a friend of mine. he works closely with the city managers as well as the police chief, and local officials including the school board and other community leaders to ensure that garland is a great safe cities live in. on march 3 -- may 3, the courageous garland police officers swiftly acted to protect people from garland from what could've been a devastating situation. i would like to commend the police officers and all members of law enforcement who stood in the face of terrorism and protected countless innocent lives. i remain committed to working with each of my colleagues in the house local leaders, and local law enforcement. it is our duty to protect the people who we serve.

this morning i will speak briefly about the recent attacks in garland, texas and the role of social media in that event and then transition to broader remarks on isil's use of social media before concluding efforts we and partners across the and federal government are pursuing to counter that avenue of threat. as has been described, last month, two u.s. citizens attacked an art exhibit and cartoon contest in garland texas. the attackers arrived on the day of the event, exited their car and opened fire with semi-automatic semi-automatic rifles injuring a guard on the or scene. they were aware of the potential violence and responded quickly to prevent injuring or killing others. this event highlights the growing threat the nation faces from a new generation of terrorist operating from a far often who use social media to find like-minded associates within our borders who can be motivated to violence attacking with little to no warning.

an online isil supporter on twitter hosted a link to information about the cartoon contest a couple weeks beforehand and the message suggested extremist should follow in the footsteps of the charlie hebdo attack in paris. days later, one of the attackers reached out and asked to move communication to private twitter messaging and the same individual urged members to follow the account of a known isil member. hours before the attack, the attacker post-ed on his twitter terrorist attack. isil operators praised the attacks and urged others to follow suit. they highlighted the attack in their online magazine.

like any brand that seeks to target young people, isil and continually innovates its online marketing to insure it is developing affectively crafted messages using well known platforms like youtube, facebook or twitter isil works to make sure they reach audiences far and wide through reposting and translations into multiply languages. they employ marketing trade craft, attaching messages to trending topics in order to gain additional readership. their social media presence is wide spread more so than any other terrorist group. since the beginning of year isil published 1,070 pieces of terrorist information. these included videos and online

magazines. they are professional in their presentation and they are timely in delivery. isil's commitment to master social media tools to advance their objectives. isil shaped their media content to amplify the affects of the violent opportunities to inject power and intimidation and employ appear approach to enhance recruitment a projection of the caliphate as an idealized family-friendly environment in which ideological and personal fulfillment can be realized. this has induced large number of young people to make their way to the combat zone of syria and iraq. isil's social media operators have pursued a new line of

effort and following statements from isil leaders encouraging loan attacks in the west these operators are practicing online recruitment and were provisions of terrorist organizations. as we have seen, some individuals have embraced the messaging and sought to commit acts of violence on this bases. when it comes to countering the spread of isil's violent messaging several social media platforms have closed down accounts advocating terrorism and violent attacks. however, efforts to prohibit the propagation of violent messaging has not been universal and there is much work to be done to encourage greater vigilance and a broader sense of corporate responsibility to address this threat to public safety. for our part, we are employing the knowledge we have developed

, that has been developed by the u.s. counter terrorism community to refine and expand our efforts. we have seen a steady proliferation of community engaged initiatives across the state working the goal to give communities information and tools they need to the threats needed and to engage it before it manifest in violence. with our dhs colleagues we have created and deliver a resilience exercise program, a table top exercise that brings together law enforcement and community leaders to run through a hypethetical scenario and potential responses. in summary, we need multi level partnership efforts to enable local u.s. communities to deal with the dual capabilities of addressing radicalization and insuring responses when an individual moves from radical ideas to radical violence. we need to communicate the knowledge so it could be used to minimize the application of

terrorist online tactics against our citizens. i will stop there, mr.chairman. thank you for the opportunity to address the community. representative mccaul: chair new recognizes secretary taylor to testify. secretary taylor: chairman mccaul, representative thompson, and members of the committee thank you for the opportunity to appear with my colleagues to discuss the home-grown violent extremist threat. the terrorist threat is decentralized and complex and not constrained to one group race, ethnicity, origin religion or geographic location. isis and others have expanded their recruiting at home and continue to be effective in recruiting foreign fighters from western countries to travel to syria and iraq. core al-qaeda and affiliates remain a major concern for dhs the group and their affiliates

maintain the intent and in some cases the capability to facilitate and conduct attacks against u.s. citizens and facilities. the attack planning continues to despite our persistent efforts to disrupt them. through the sophisticated messaging capability as mentioned, isil has been able to reach a global audience and encourage acts of violence inspiring citizens to travel to syria to recruit and radicalize the balance of the western homegrown homegrown homegrown extremist at home. mobilized offenders present law enforcement with limited opportunities for detection and disrupting their plots. the recent attacks in texas reinforce the importance of close sharing information between dhs, fbi, and other

state, federal and local partners. prior to the attack the fbi and dhs served with texas and local law enforcement warnings that the event was at risk for being targeted for violent extremism. these warnings led to the action taken by garland police that thwarted the attack. this evolving threat is information and intelligence sharing with partners. dhs, ina, and the national protection division field personal are instrumental in this effort and provide measures that help build resilience across the country. as an example of intelligence sharing between dhs, ina, and our state and local partners was the protest last week in

phoenix, arizona this past weekend. we proactively contacted partners on the ground and shared intelligence from the fbi and dhs sources in real time to insure local leadership and law enforcement had the necessary information to protect their communities and their citizens. additionally we reached out to the faith community in phoenix to provide information regarding the fopotential violent activities so they could take preventive action. it is important to build partnerships with state and local law enforcement that enhances community relationships, and builds extremist violent recruitment. dhs has a senior executive now the dhs cordinator's sole role is to work the efforts. the new strategy has

strengthened the local communities and the premise that well informed and equipped families and communities represent the best defense against violent extremism. dhs will work with colleagues and our international counterparts and partners and within the state department to identify potential threats to security both at home and abroad. chairman mccaul, and ranking member thompson and distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you. >> the chair recognizes assistant director michael steinbach. director steinbach: good morning chairman mccaul, ranking member thompson, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you and discuss the recent terrorist influence that go across boundaries like never before.

the terrorist use of social media in the rhetoric and encouraging attacks on the homeland and abroad. as the threat to harm evolves we must adapt to confront the challenge and this includes working with state and local partners. we continue to identify individuals who try to join in support of isis and the home-grown extremist that conspire to attack the united states within. conflict from syria and iraq entice western base extremist who wish to engage in violence. we estimate upwards of 200 americans have travelled or attempted to travelled to join the extremist groups. we closely analyze and assess what isis' influence on those in the united states who are inspired to create acts of violence. these threats remain the highest

priority among the fbi and intelligence community as whole. the group continues to attract like minded extremist. unlike other groups, isis as constructed a narrative that is appealing to many walking through life. it seen by many who click and receive social media push notifications and participate in social networks. isil has advocated for attacks against militarily personal and law enforcement personal. they have gone so far as to post the names and addresses of military member do is the internet that went viral. community and world events may entice an individual to act. as we have seen with highly publicized events it will attract the media and may inspire copy cat events.

it encourages the call of isis and the power of viral messaging. as i stated in previous opportunities i have had to testify before the committee there is no step profile for the consumer of the propaganda but one trend continues to rise and that is the inspired youth. we have seen children and young adults drawing deeper into the narrative and they are comfortable with communication platforms especially social media networks. some of these conversations occur in public social media sites and others take place via private platforms. it is imperative the fbi and organizations understand the latest tools and are equipped to identify terror attacks on the homeland. we live in a technology society and the terrorist have adapted. social media is the latest tool exploited by terrorist.

with the widespread distribution model and encrypted communication it has a free zone to recruit, radicalize, plot and plan. we need to assess the laws that apply the matters and work with private industries toward technology solutions to correct the narrative. this is not a conversation about national security at the expense of privacy or about weakening security of communication products through creation of technology backdoors. if the legal process shows the evidence of a crime gains access to the front door with full knowledge of the companies. the fbi seeks to insure no one is above the law so the bad guys can walk away there is a balance between security and privacy. the fbi and partnership with dhs is utilizing all techniques and

method to combat the threats the individuals pose to the united states. along with domestic and foreign partners we are collecting and analyzing intelligence information as it per tain do is the ongoing threat poised by terrorist organizations. in partnership with federal, state and local agencies assigned to counterterrorism task forces we remain vigilant to protect the public. i thank you for the opportunity to testify regarding isis' continued threat to the united states. representative mccaul: i now recognize myself for five minutes. i want to first pull up on the screen what i consider to be an internet conspiracy to conduct a terrorist attack. i was a federal prosecutor and worked on direct cases organized crime, there are a lot

of similarities but this one is conducted completely on the internet. i want to commend the fbi, homeland security, and the joint counterterrorism task force for their text book model case efforts in both the garland attack and most recently in boston. that is the way it is supposed work. unfortunately we have yet to get it right every time and they just have to get it right once. but this shows what we are dealing with-- the threat gone viral. yeah, this guy was an isis follower in somalia directing attacks against the cartoonist competition and mr.simpson who responds and as the attack is being conducted we have the chief isis recruit

recruiters/hackers/directors for terrorist attacks congratulating them and basically saying that the knives have been sharpened and soon we will come to your streets with death and slaughter. i guess my first question is to director michael steinbach. this is just a microcosim of the conspiracy and threat on the internet we are looking at. how many potential recruiters do you think we have sitting in syria, and somalia and northern africa actively recruiting acts of terrorism globally? director steinbach: that is a good question, sir.

i think you could refer to the brookings institute study on terrorist use of social media in particular twitter and it gives you an idea. when you look at the volume of social media and its availability to spread horizontally you are looking at a couple thousand core uses, and probably in the area of 50,000 individuals retweeting that message and upwards of 200,000 say for instance republicceiving the message. that is the pool to start and those are ballpark numbers. social media is a great tool for the public but allow for the horizontal distribution that is difficult to follow. that is the baseline numbers we start with. representative mccaul: so you said it has been reported as many as 200,000 pro-isis tweets per day occur on the internet. is that correct?

director steinbach: i cannot give you the exact numbers. it is a large volume and that is the trick, right? what is somebody's individual right to tweet and say what they want to say verses somebody who is going down a different road? more nefarious road. so that is the starting point. the thousands you are talking about. trying to cull through that and see who among those individuals are up to no good and who are plotting an attack on western interests. representative mccaul: and that is the great challenge; to try to monitor the communications to the extent you can. director steinbach: it is hugely problematic. social media is great. it is out there, open source, but the volume is emense and i am talking about the open side of social media, not the encrypted messages which is another huge issue for us. representative mccaul: how many

followers are actually in the united states in your estimate? director steinbach: so i think it was stated last time. there are hundreds, maybe thousands. it is a challenge to get a full understanding of just how many of those passive followers are taking action. representative mccaul: and i read some of these twitter accounts and tweets they have thousands of followers and thousands following, which means they are actively communicating with each other. then they go to instant messaging and they go into a more secure space where if we have coverage we can pick up that communication, but as you suggested in your testimony then they have the ability to go into what is called dark space, to another platform. that platform is secure and we

don't have the ability to monitor these communications. is that correct? director steinbach: that is correct, sir. representative mccaul: to me that is one of the greatest concerns i have. do we have any idea how many communications are taking place in the dark space? director steinbach: no, we don't. and that is the problem. we are past going dark in certain instances. the ability to know what they are saying in these encrypted communication situations is troubling. representative mccaul: i think it is a tremendous threat to the homeland. do you have any recommendations for the congress? director steinbach: i think we need an honest conversation and get past the rhetoric of what we are talking about. this is not large scale surveillance techniques. we are talking about going before the court, whether the criminal court or the national security court, with evidence, a burden of proof/probable cause suggesting a crime has been committed -- or in our case there is a terrorist, and

showing that burden of proof having the court sign off on it, and then going to the providers and requesting access to the stored information or communications is ongoing. in our case, we are not looking at going through a backdoor or being nefarious. we suggest and are imploring congress to help us seek legal remedies to that and asking companies to provide tech -nological solutions to help that. we understand privacy. privacy above everything including safety and freedom from terrorism, is not where we want to go. representative mccaul: i think the community should be looking at this important issue. finally, if you can comment on the most recent boston case, it has been reported that this was an isis-inspired event over the internet to attack police

officers. we know they call to attack military instillations and police officers. i know this is an active investigation, but to the extent you can, would you comment on this? director steinbach: the investigation is early on, there is not a lot i could say on the intelligence side. you are right sir, we know isis put out messages to attack the west -- specifically law enforcement, and military. we know they have been looking at those target sets and we are careful where they are out. the counterterrorism subjects are being monitored for any type of action, any time of overt steps, mobilization factors and when we see those we are not taking the chance. representative mccaul: i appreciate and we commend your efforts in this most recent threat. with that the chair recognizes

the ranking member. representative thompson: michael steinbach, you went into great detail about the challenge of social media and other things. do you see the challenges or the do you see the challenges or the resources do you job? director steinbach: i don't feel we have a resource issue. we did an effective job working the state and locals to focus the target set. we have to prioritize resources but the challenge for me is the technological challenge to get over that hurdle. representative thompson: when

you say “technological,” well will you explain that a little bit for me please? director steinbach: when a social media company elects to build in their software encryption and leaves no ability for even the company to access the content, we don't have the means by which to see the content. when we intercept it, it is encrypted communication. so that is the challenge working with the companies to build solutions and prevent encryption above all us. representative thompson: there is nothing from a congressional standpoint authority you need from us to make that happen? director steinbach: well, i think congress passed law that was put in place many years ago that required telecommunication providers to provide assistance

to law enforcement. i would suggest that is a starting point and we need to expand who is bound by that law. telecommunications providers are a small subset of the companies that out there providing communication these days. i think as a starting point that would be helpful. representative thompson: can you provide the committee with beyond the starting point in terms of where the department thinks we should be going in this direction? director steinbach: i could. i think more appropriately the fbi operational technology division has the lead on that. i am sure they would be happy to come here and lay out for you, step by step, where they'd need to go. representative thompson: i think we ought to try to make that part of what we do. mr. mulligan according to your testimony, videos and tweets and messages are probably not enough to radicalize individuals who

are beginning to show these tendencies. they serve as discussion points. what do you do about online portals that start people down the slope? john.mulligan: sir, as i mentioned, it is part of a diaologue. they start out by trying to gain your interest. it is marketing and advertising. as michael indicated there are followers. we need to help educate members of the public about this process. we have been trying to do that with dhs so as michael said

, family members are aware if there children are spending a lot of time on this they need to counter this and execute some degree of measures. these individuals are very savvy and they are understanding of the gradual nature of recruitment and operationalization. they create images that are attractive and abroad in that into a further discussion. it does require an interventionalistic approach. representative thompson: general taylor, can you tell us where dhs fits in this space in terms of trying to do the community engagement in other kinds of things that can help what mr.mulligan is talking about? general taylor: yes, sir certainly. as my colleagues on both sides mentioned it starts with the

intelligence to understand the tactics our advisaries a using to reach in the units community. and we conduct resilience and teach communities about the tactics, techniques and procedures and what to look for and how to spot and who they may report to about that activity so they can intervene at the earliest possible stage. we have done it across the country. secretary johnson has done six of these this year. he is out doing one this afternoon. it is a clear part of our strategy to insure the communities understand the threat and how it is being manifested. in my mind, it is almost like what we do with predtory behavior with child molesters. we have to inform parents of

what is happening on the internet so they can monitor what children are doing and seeing on a continuous bases. representative thompson: do parents who are monitoring, do they have enough options out there? i think the child might be engaged in this behavior. who do i call? the local law enforcement? the fbi? our strategy to insure the communities understand the threat and how it is being manifested. in my mind, it is almost like what we do with predtory behavior with child molesters. we have to inform parents of what is happening on the internet so they can monitor what children are doing and seeing on a continuous bases. >> do parents who are monitoring, do they have enough options out there i think the child might be engaged in this behavior. who do i call? the local law enforcement? the fbi? or have a put my child in a

situation where have something between law enforcement and the parents that can help mitigate the circumstances? >> certainly, i think the opportunity is to -- for the >> certainly, i think the opportunity is to -- for the community to engage for the schools to engage before it gets to a radical action that requires law enforcement involvement. what we try to do get communities to understand is they are part of the solution. it is not just the law enforcement solution we are looking for. we are looking for communities to be engaged and understand and intervene when these events occur. there was a recent case where there was father in new england his daughter went missing. he went to the airport and said i think my daughter is leaving. we were able to find his daughter. she was not at that airport but another one before going overseas. that happens every day with someone having that challenge. it isn't a law enforcement response. it is helping parents be good parents and helping the children not make bad mistakes. enforcement

response. it is helping parents be good parents and helping the children not make bad mistakes. >> thank you. >> mr. king is recognized. >> thank you mr. chairman. let me thank all of the witnesses for their testimony today and the service they have given our country. i would like to slightly disagree with something the ranking member said or maybe more about clarification but whether or not isis use of social media can by itself cause someone to carry out violent action. we had new york case where a man in queens attacked two police officers with a hatchet and it doesn't appear of a long process of radicalization. he was responding to a director from isis. and we had two women, this might have been a longer process with ied's in their apartment and they both seemed to primary

means of radicalization was the isis use of social media. am i correct? >> i would suggest congressman you are absolutely correct in they believed they are able to operationize people solely through social media. they believe they can enter into the dialogue and provide the tools and they are not getting into complex tools. but they are telling them is here are tactics and procedures you should use and here are readily available information online you can exploit. they believe they can provide them everything they will need to undertake some kind of lone after attack. >> so i think you also hit on an important point and that is the diversity of the threat. you have a slow burn and individuals that flash the bang quick. we have seen more of the flash to bang with isil and their online efforts.

again, it isn't just going some place on the internet and looking it up. social media push is coming right to your pocket via your smart phone. so it is a diversity of threats. you are right in that it all depends on the individual. but we have to be prepared for both types of situations. >> as far as the dock areas where you cannot go right now, it would seem in those instances it is more important that human sources on the ground can fill in those gaps. and maybe this is rehetorrhetorical but with the talk of snooping and spying makes it harded to recruit people on the ground. in boston if this was two days ago and the associated press and new york times uncovered the fact the boston police were following the alleged terrorist it would have been snooping and spying and now it turns out it

is affective surveillance. i think the use of the terms are doing a disservice as far as enabling law enforcement to recruit people on the ground. you said you want to work with the community, and you do but the onslaught from the media and certain people in politics talking about snooping and spying undoes a lot of the good you do. i don't know if you want to comment on that. but anyway comment fine if not i will leave it. >> i agree with you. you have to have people online and in person trying to research this. we try to put sources in situations where there is a predicate predicated situation but it is a challenge. >> i would indicate this is a total human fight taking humans, what i call transactions and looking at travel patterns and those things to come to this and

certainly in communities they sometimes feel they are looking at us too much as opposed to another community and our response is generally the bad guys are trying to recruit your kids that is why we are talking to you. it isn't because of your religion. but what the bad guys are trying to do and that is why we are hear talking to you about strategy. >> they are encouraging the use of hope threats. what happened on memorial day with ten different hoax threats called into the airlines and they were called in again this weekend. if that is a response to isis are these a person carry out a hoax or what? >> we don't have creditability threats to aviation so those

appear to be hoaxes. tracking them back to an individual or group is still on ongoing process. >> but isis said the use of the hoax itself is an effective means of attack? >> yes. >> i yield back. >> mr. richards is recognized. >> and i guess i will start with mr. taylor. you mention there were about 1700 messages sent out on isil. how many if you had to estimate, how many people did that reach? >> certainly tens of thousands. 1700 separate publications via video release or online magazine release but certainly in the thousands to tens of thousands.

>> we are not seeing similarities or consistent traits across the board in the people that start to engage are we? >> well sir, it is partly about what the actually video is about or what they are trying to insight. we are concerned when we see someone who is let's say a twitter feed that is being followed and they are really strongly advocating violence. i think the fbi is paying particular attention to those. ...

they're effective at using and manipulating social media. to do or not to do to protect themselves, themselves, and i guess now i will get into sensitive areas. to depict or make fun of islam. but in my mind anchor is my mother not to walk down dark streets and night is dangerous. i would get upset if someone drew cartoons of jesus are

called mary a slut. so if you know they are a social media expert and they are good, are we inciting some of this with our or some people's hatred toward their religion and other things? only fueling some of this fire? >> sir, sir, i think i would answer that question simply by saying the constitution of the united states of america and our rights and freedoms or something that stands in the way of our enemies effort to create a global caliphate. i do not think anyone event fuels this. it is coming at our system of government come our freedoms is what

they are trying to undermine they are in the new cycle. >> you don't see a spike in people following after events like this or any rise in social media conversations when you have a contest like that going on? >> of course you do. >> i guess that's my question. >> again, in america those kinds of conversations happen everyday. as a part of our constitutional rights in this country. and so saying that we should stop doing something year what caused them to stop doing it there. they will there. they would find somewhere else to look for a reason to attack america. >> i agree with that. but i i guess my question command i think that a guy that's going around the lady walking down a dark alley is going to rob somebody but i will encourage my mother not to walk down an alley so it will be heard so that it is

not easy prey. i guess it is our constitutional right to say what you want but i promise you if you mother a name there will be consequences of repercussions. i just don't think that we are having that honest conversation were talking about young people angry people, people who are picked picked on. i mean,, you know there are some words that will trigger a response, but you have the absolute first amendment right to say it. that it is up to me whether i want to exercise my discipline or hit you in the mouth. the question becomes how often we will we get hit in the mouth for realize that we may be playing into it unnecessarily by being callous and cool. thank thank you for your questions and thank you, mr. chairman. >> i think the gentleman. >> thank you. this is a difficult subject

trying to find the line between privacy and security let me ask you this there are folks that might wear their heart on her sleeve regarding the circumstance, radical islam. they might be having a conversation openly and social media where they espouse their opinion which might lead them to be a target for some of these individuals if you know what, i mean, and even some of the folks in this building, somebody building somebody that is having this hearing today are someone that is asking questions. do you folks have any way or do the platforms of anyway of monitoring traffic about those individuals that might have had a conversation with a friend openly on open-source online about their disdain for

radical islam or tax and might have been disparaging about it? do they become a target? does that individual become a target? do social platforms have a way of monitoring it? you collaborate on that? is that the chill? is there a chilling effect for free speech, people feel like they might be targeted because of the thoughts posted openly and social media. >> i'm not sure i fully understand the question. social media platforms usually abide by the terms of service agreement. small compliance departments. i don't think think social media companies are doing anything along the lines that you speak. as far as the intelligence committee or law enforcement monitoring those individuals exercising expressions of

freedom and becoming targets we don't have a mechanism in place to track them. the jacket from the other side. if you see threats coming. >> eventually. >> we are not tracking it from the other end. if someone comes to us and says i feel threatened of course we will look into it. as far as a datable no. >> go ahead. >> if i could also offer another bit of context when you are operating on social media, particularly the barley available public platforms your in open space you can be monitored by any entity out there, commercial entities, educational institutions, the media anyone can be looked at that. that is one of the challenges that i think people often concerned about frequently we are trying to

encourage credible voices to contest the ideological extremist that is being advocated and those folks are reluctant to do so because of the fact that they are concerned that they will become a a potential target of violence and intelligence target, law enforcement target. we have been trying to do collectively is trying to change the environment from the perception of the us government monitoring of their activities, but i believe again it is open space. any person enters into that space needs to understand that. >> when you talk about -- some of you talked about encrypted direct messages and dark space give me some examples. essentially essentially just texting? would that be considered off-limits to monitoring by the united states government even in cases where there might be an eminent planning and plotting.

is there any way -- and if it's classified, that's fine. i'm wondering from that perspective. if it's not on facebook or twitter do we have the capability the federal government have the capability and/or do the providers have the capability in all your algorithms? >> the answer is no. 200 plus social media companies. some of them build their business model around end-to-end encryption. there is no ability currently for us to see that. if that. if we intercept the communication always sees encrypted communication. >> some examples. if we are talking just a texting, a texting, i no the program called cyber dust. once you send it is received it disappears, and that would be -- is that an example of dark space or is that just encrypted direct communication? >> dark space is a general

term. there are lots of miles out there, models, social media that go point-to-point and once you read it disappears, not saved. some companies you can set how long a text is saved, some of them are encrypted from the start most of them are text type, some are photographed. there are all there are all kinds of different models. some are like bulletin board formats. there is lot a lot of different formats. >> and all of that is off-limits right now to the federal government. >> not that it is off-limits but there are more and more companies building a platforms that do not allow us. we will still seek those companies, companies, but if the company has built a model that even they can't decrypt than it does not do us any good. >> thank you. i yield back. >> you are recognized. >> thank you very much. thank you very much for your

information sharing. i want to tag on a little bit to the congressman's congressman's question. i want to get at something that i have not heard a lot about. i am i am reading that they're really is no sort of common denominator here, no religious zealot individuals being radicalized or even necessarily no what the islamic religion is all about. it is not socioeconomic racial or ethnic. what exactly is it? what is enticing about beheadings and violence and just very angry assault that our young people are being exposed to? what is stripping them and their attention to that kind of radicalization?

>> ma'am, if i can give you a little bit of context. your context. your right to describe, and one of my colleagues described earlier the range of -- how can i say it, experiences and if you will ideological knowledge varies incredibly widely. what there seems to be is, they is, they are appealing in some instances to if there is a sense of victimization that they are the individuals who are those who will conquer, those who have been the victimizers. and so it appeals to that underdog nature. they really do they really do an effective job in communicating that sense. as i said in my remarks they couple that with an ability to present here is the idealized vision of what our religion presents command if you really want to lead the trappings of all the challenges and troubles are having in your current life and join us we will offer you more direction and meaning.

so that is how they seem to be succeeding. >> they seem to be attracting young people. are we talking about middle school age we talking -- what age are we talking? when we say youth just how younger these people? >> i would say we're seeing ages in the teens, probably upper teens in the 20s. we deem this a knew generation of terrorists. a lot of them are extremely converse of. they have grown up with it. so this is the means by which they use. >> i understand that. what is enticing them? what appeals to you when you see someone beheaded? you see these nasty threats on this violence? the victimization is something i would like. one of my favorite programs the fbi profiler. so i'm wondering is that a

real thing? do we -- is there such a thing as psychological profiling? are we looking at those kinds of things? are we identifying some traits that have nothing to do with ethnicity or socioeconomic or whatever, but other traits? and are we able to like, identify red flags in the children and young people in school in college? because i just i just wonder whether or not we are expending enough energy and resources in trying to identify early on and intervene. >> yes. the fbi does have a behavioral analysis unit. within the national center for the analysis of violent crime there is a unit dedicated to terrorists command it spends a lot of time looking at the parts of radicalization and mobilization what attracts folks.

it is a very complicated piece. and quite frankly, we have seen as far as the profile is the lack of a profile. there are just so many reasons. we don't see disaffected. we don't disaffected. we don't see -- we see some well-to-do. victimization is certainly a common theme. younger and younger individuals are drawn in to this messaging. i would say they have done an effective message that they have said publicly caliphate is here. come now to a country where a country where sharia law rules. bring your family. they have messages it across the spectrum to a wide block of individuals. >> let me ask this last question. should we be engaging the department of education, the higher education in identifying programs and approaches and

sort of learning devices that would be able to anticipate and deal with our younger people who are affected by whatever it is that is turning them on hear? >> yes, we should and are beginning to work with the department of education on these kinds of issues because it is a whole community effort. it is not just the police not just the churches but education, civic organizations well. >> thank you, mr. chairman. at some time i would i would like for us to explore what more can be done proactively in identifying and sort of intervening at an earlier state. thank you for your indulgence. indulgence. your recognized. >> thank you, mr. chairman ranking member for holding this hearing. a number of these issues we can talk all day long about. my 1st question is to mr. mulligan and ambassador taylor the community

engagement exercises and engaging credible voices throughout the committee. how do we make it bigger, how do we accelerate on is projects? >> we have been developing a partnership. he awareness briefing and have been moving it out slowly initially to ensure that we have a degree of success, but we have had some success and now we're trying to train the trainer so that we can get into a situation where we are propagating broadly across community be his going back to some of the other observations that have been made it really is at the committee level that we need the success. also we need to have i think as the ranking member said levels between government and local. a lot of this is particular family members, people are reluctant to engage any sort of authority. we need to try and find middle ground. >> and i appreciate that because we need to think about this in terms of

weeks, not years. that is the is the speed at which we need to counter the threat. ambassador taylor. >> it is a global phenomenon. our outreach international has been important as well. i'm leading a delegation to australia next week to further our communication with their partners about this phenomenon and how we can engage communities across the world to better -- so that they better understand. >> because in order to make the fbi job easier this lone wolf idea the only way we will stop that is by countering violent ideology. that is going to take a government effort. human the government is responsible? >> the cbe activity. >> it is actually a shared responsibility between justice the intelligence community, dhs and the fbi. and our deputies meet regularly to formulate those strategies and implement the strategies within the us.

>> my suggestion looking at unity of command. when command. when you have three people in charge of something no one is in charge. that is something we are plagued with. my next set of questions is to mr. steinbach. on counterterrorism the canon, terrorists are trying to do two things kill a lot of people an and illicit countering terrorism responses in the government to upset a population. and so with that as the background, i'm a little bit nervous when we started talking about kelly expansion, these kinds of things. i get i get nervous because the privacy aspect. my question, not to get too technical does end-to-end encryption provided by many us companies prevent your ability to do attribution? >> in some cases yes. >> but not in all cases. >> on all cases. >> are you suggesting that when you have a court order

someone connects the terrorism that there are companies that are not cooperating with helping to get as much information as they can? >> no, i am no i am suggesting that companies are built upon that does not allow them to help. >> but if your saying it does not prevent attribution because the key here is to try to find as much information so that we can to exhibit the success you have had in boston you were able to identify someone and use other tools to track them and you know, stop and prevent this happening. and that is a difficult task don't get me wrong to read i no how hard you guys are working maintaining the operational pace that you have maintained since september 11. it is unprecedented. you are the men and women who should be patted on the back and heralded another we have to make sure we protect our civil liberties and our borders at the same time. and when you talk about reviewing applicable laws around the technology

challenges that your facing i just want to be clear that you are not talking about putting a backdoor in software. >> no. like i said in my prepared statement, i'm talking about full transparency, going to the companies we think could help us get the unencrypted information and the attribution piece is important. depending upon the technology involved -- and this requires a technology specimen, there are tokens that are used. do not allow for attribution. it is not quite as simple as just using other techniques. sometimes techniques. sometimes the attribution is not there, and i would be happy to discuss the classified setting in more detail just exactly what we're talking about. >> i i would love that. we've been talking about social media and digital tools. it also gives us an opportunity to do double agent operations, to penetrate, you know, their ability. ten years ago if you are

anything close to an american you would get your throat slit. now we have new tools order to penetrate the. i have run out of time and i yield back to the chairman. >> if i could briefly -- we led a delegation investigating foreign fighters to the middle east and europe's. we found that there is a counter narrative. this is not online the foreign fighters. love the region. some return some return inspired and more radicalized and some return very disillusioned from the experience. i think that narrative the state department initiative, to get that narrative out there, the better off we will be. so the chair recognizes mr. price. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i want to ask you a couple questions. how does the intelligence community qualify an elevated threat from online? we all know they raise the

threat level. but specifically with this online communication, how do you rate what level the communication, how it rises to something that you really are worried about. >> it is i think a simple question with the competent answer. there are a lot of pieces of volume volume, specificity, whether or not they have identified willing sympathizers who will do something. a lot of pieces go into it. many of those factors are present now. >> so either -- what is the biggest difficulty in terms of being accurate when you are trying to raise the level of a threat? >> as was stated previously, the social media is great because it is out there. it is voluminous. trying to weed through the thousands and thousands of

individuals on social media and find all the signals all the noise out there and identify the signal. it is a volume peace. looking at social media requires a different business process. and going from there to finding a credible threat is a difficult process. >> yes. i mean, it seems like it would be. we have been talking this whole time about online communications, online radicalization's. is there any physical presence? >> so, i would say we have of course a small number of return foreign fighters, individuals who have been a overseas and returned. where where they are and who they are is probably an intelligence. our best estimates are we

have individuals who have taken up the call to arms based on there messaging. >> but not everyone who has gone and come back becomes a recruiter. >> correct. >> am curious as to whether there are people who don't go anywhere and are in a physical place and actually doing you know, you know, whether in tandem with the online recruitment face-to-face. >> you're talking about the homegrown violent extremist lone wolf. there are number of factors that would call someone to radicalized. does not have to be online. it could be a friend, an associate, other factors may cause that person to become radicalized. online just happens to be when you look at the spectrum by volume lies percentage. if you're asking, do we have core al qaeda coming to the us and sitting here, i think we look to that -- look at that intelligence all the time.

for the most part no. >> thank you. i yield back my time. >> mr. duncan is recognized. >> thank you, mr. chairman. al qaeda led the way with inspire magazine which was an online publication. are we still seeing inspire as prevalent as it was? adopted that media? and is there a way to track? you got a website platform is there a way for you guys to track who visits that page, he takes it and forwards that information if you can answer that for me. >> to answer your question is still comes out periodically. that model has been successfully copied by

several of the other affiliates and other terrorist related entities. they entities. they see that whole process of an online magazine as being an effective model. it has been adapted by isi l. they have a publication that is a a variation on it. they put out there information in multiple languages. to answer your question about our ability to track its propagation and will we are not able to do that. they put multiple links to it. as you can imagine once something starts to propagate it is there and can reside in a number of places. that model does exist and continues to be employed. again, it is extremely impossible track. >> freshman members and people are just following this issue i recommend you get inspire magazine and take a look at the information being provided.

i've never seen the information you were talking about. if there's a way to share would like to take a look's. i'm interested. i went to europe to delve into these foreign fighters coming off the battlefield from syria, whether they transited through turkey. when i was there by before i got to brussels of foreign fighter came back and shot of the museum the jewish museum and killed three or four people and tried to flee to north africa. so the timeliness of my travels. but this was the beginning. you did not here about isis is much not like you here about them now. at the time that foreign fighter that shot of the museum in brussels germany knew about it and failed to let the belgians are french now because they were suspicious of us

intelligence gathering through monitoring phone calls and all that. what are some of the challenges of tracking foreign fighters? you talk about core al qaeda. i'm talking about the french guys that go over and get radicalized on the battlefield. how how do we track those guys and how successful have we been? >> that has been ironically an incredibly unifying factor among the counterterrorism committee across the globe. a lot of a lot of our western partners -- i mean, they have substantial foreign fighter flow issues. as mike indicated -- >> the shenzhen region in europe. you get there. >> yes. that is something is something i tried to confront with regard to how they manage this. we have been sharing a lot of information back and forth with some of the means and processes we are trying to employed attract foreign fighters.

what is what is also clear to us is it needs to be particularly with foreign partners the whole of government approach. we are trying to share with them the benefits we have experienced by ensuring that the free flow of information among the inner agency in many instances we develop an effective relationship with a foreign partner only to discover that the partner flow is not optimized to try and ensure appropriate law enforcement has been alerted. the bottom line is things are trending positively in the information sharing. >> the bilateral trade. >> multilateral. multilateral. the other challenges again. we estimate about 4000 in total foreign fighters flowing. what we have seen foreign fighters from over a hundred countries. some of our other partners) have developed effective mechanisms for tracking the foreign fighters and developing rehabilitation programs. ..

>> some of the direction that's been given lately over the last several months by isil leadership they are urging fighters to remain in place. >> we are working closely with our partners on that from italy

and into the northern parts of europe. it is a very big concern for us not only from a counter terrorism perspective because some of these people might end up applying for visas in our country. so it is a high priority for our intelligence exchanges with our partners in europe in terms of getting our arms around the particular flow. exchange ith our partners in europe. >> i am out of time. i would ask that we delve into the effectiveness that might have to be in a classified setting. i yield back. >> and those classified breves with fbi and homeland and social media and the encryption challenges. your partners don't as they

go back into europe is a big security gap and parliament addresses that. >> it is work. it doesn't move as fast as we would like it to move but there is a glimmer of hope based on recent activity in threats and actions in europe that the europeans understand the importance of state dash tracking citizens so we have some hope there is light at the end of the tunneling for word -- of going forward. >> 80 and i apologize if the questions have already been

asked but for that current status for that role if i could summon you know, i spend a lot of time as they relate to physical infrastructure can you tell me in your role with social three a and recruitment what you see in terms of the efforts of infrastructure and can you also describe what metrics come --, if any to be interested in cyberterrorism rather than physical attacks?

>> that is the great question. first of all, we see more and more cyberintrusion with of counterterrorism. where we are at now you see that same counter terrorist actors using cyberintrusion as the tool to see how effective they are most recently to become more adept at the cyberintrusion activities. >> i would add to those comments by saying this is a very high priority concern for the department of all men security with the protection division to work with the critical infrastructure every day across this country about the cyberthreat in general, specifically about the actors so they are prepared for a and

understand the threat to mitigate those attempts with the critical infrastructure. >> i would agree with those points. if it is the inevitable trend to move into that realm because it is a means by which they could affect damage in a cost-efficient way. and a high degree of maneuverability in cyberspace in physiological they would have those mechanisms. >> but we focus on an ad as a tool. >> yes. >> now i am supportive of efforts to incorporate

countermeasures into this he the and the public-private -- public-private partnership like the program mentioned in your testimony. at the same time with those strategies is the credibility of the messenger to greatly undermine so how could we be sure there are independent voices without compromising? >> sir, that is exactly the effort we're trying to make. is the question is to establish a process that people feel they have the tools to do that counter messaging. but there is still a cost deficit that needs to be

overcome. and for those intermediaries to take up the effort. >> before my time runs out the social media platforms have a prominent role cayenne you describe their relationship that each of your agencies have with those private operators of the networks are the institutional or based on personal relationships and what type of request to you make of these companies? >> i would say we have relationships with every country. we have to process. based on personal relationships at the starting point but we develop more than that but each company is different it is not appropriate to talk about those within the company. >> i wish dad homeland security as the

relationships evolve, as mentioned, we probably want to have these conversations classified. >> if i could read just late -- just quickly say people ask why redo that cyberoffensive attack i guess once that is done it could happen rather quickly and then it goes down quite a bit. but the chair now recognizes the gentleman. >> thank you for holding this critically important hearing and they get to the witnesses for being here today for all the important work you do.

this attack seems do demonstrate the challenges isis' poses today. we saw no civilian casualties and law-enforcement do exactly what they should have done to protect the public but yet we live in the unprecedented times were a failed attack by isis in that regard is still spotted as a women wear a failed attempt still plays into the merits they want to sell. as a former terrorism prosecutor who handled a number of members handling al qaeda there is an important difference. al qaeda and isis are encouraging multiple attacks but al qaeda has done this with very little success in this seems isis has been very effective in this

regard over a matter of months. with the situation it appears to me that isis sophisticated use of social media is a cascading effect to have a terrorism multiplier of sorts. and can use the ice is brand without having to join isis and it concerns me that it seems that they have created a terror franchise. so i want to quickly ask you if you think i am accurate in that assessment. >> i think that is an excellent characterization i would agree precisely. they have effectively leverage to that capability that exceptional capabilities and they claim

to make maximum use of every opportunity to amplify defect in terms of the of victories on the battlefield the way they have treated our hostages. to squeeze perceptual power on social media. i would agree in that regard i have been doing this for a long time. i have never seen a terrorist organization, a public relations that i have seen globally to be effective. >> in addition and it is up focus on the western audience when they tweet in english they are at a much

higher rates for car is a great propaganda messages that is focused on the western english speaking audience. >> talk about of message i went to focus on the cause and director, he with the deputy director talked about the unique narrative isis has created, a false narrative that involves a sense of community, a sense of the venture the ability to find a spouse. all know how ridiculous the claims are but if they are susceptible to radicalization, it seems to be a successful there there from their standpoint. since i sister out of al qaeda from iraq why did they suddenly become the effective at crafting this message when al qaeda and

other terrorist organizations have not previously? to be have any insight into that? >> i would point out the demographics that the younger generation of fighters who were much more conversant in a situation where they initially occupied territory where there was fairly advanced infrastructure so if you think over time in some instances al qaeda was not occupying optimal areas to leverage that infrastructure where isis did. they have a fundamental orientation into action that dominates their psyche and how they move. >> the other difference is social media was not as robust when al qaeda started as it has been since 2010 in

the era of spring and house social media was used and propagated the use since that time. >> just to further clarify he is absolutely right. but get the internet six years ago but somebody still had to reach into a forum and go into that but when social media comes to you is so far advanced in advance or in comparison to the internet. >> hope you will indulge me to ask one additional question because what is important i want to find out to talk about the effective messaging that they have well winning brand that is disenfranchise to them what do we do to counter that message?

in other words, to create a boozing brand? part of that is a kinetic military operation on the ground but from the social media standpoint is there a counter strategy? >> there is basically a three-pronged strategy to link counter on the battlefield and and make eight be image they are successfully representing. that is their center of gravity. the second pieces whole cyberonline media piece just very quickly the range of options of over the top applications they can employ , and going back over the options available to the al qaeda? now we're in another universe of operational activities but nevertheless because they are operating a public space they have vulnerabilities and we should move aggressively to counter that. number three is the space in terms of finding the credible voices to contest

that ideological message. we have to work to give us all those points of never. >> i appreciate that. i yield back. >> mr. chairman. i am looking forward to a reading with a steady on terrorism and social media. i took a sneak peek while we were in their firm and i understand as of october last year there were 42,000 identified twitter accounts that were flagged and thousands disabled. and i kind of think that is good to view what is said. it is one way to try to prepare and prevent.

mr. taylor there is a lot of talk about the programs and community awareness and community policing. we have known there is a lot of issues in the past that need to be addressed from a neighborhood level. but somehow we cannot translate that and we have seen a lot of tensions arise between local law enforcement groups and community groups that this has been ongoing saw what does community policing look like in my neighborhood or the northern part of california? >> your question is a good

question for griping community policing is community policing. i don't think it is about relationships with the community is that every serve as has the changed in 20 years and i have been involved is what happens with people who were from the community to build partnerships. that is what it is all about and i daresay that have been in diverse communities and majority communities but the same way never you have to build a relationship and the trust. part of secretary johnson has spoken eloquently when he goes out to do community engagement he is mitt with skepticism and receives complaints about profiling and other concerns but you have to have that discussion

also to build the trust. we talk about the things the community needs to know to protect themselves. >> i know well i want you to know i represent the airport which is to our demise that is controlled and managed by lax for car would like to hear more about the fbi joint terrorism task force in los angeles and how they are working with my local police department in ontario to ensure that training is happening not only for those officers that lax or lapd but for those who would be the first responders should an incident happened spin refrigerate to resound task force isn't just including lax but all major airports

of orange county and ontario. make an appointment to go to were that i am sure that office would be happy to give you a firsthand understanding how robust the task force is for our was just out there a couple weeks ago discussing with him to meet the folks but go see firsthand. >> right. , will have the discussion off the record to bring to your attention that my staff recently went on a tour and i was saddened to have discovered while trading is happening among other agencies the ontario police department has not been invited to participate in much of that. >> cat would be happy to have a conversation and also bring those concerns to his attention.

>> our community outreach with a dhs we are working hard with police agencies throughout california so if there is a deficit of training or something that teeeight just might help in ontario we are more than happy to have that discussion to make sure that training is available. >> thank you. i want to thank each of you for being here today i have heard and i am amazed at your depth of knowledge and your dedication to the mission for right echo my sentiments of my colleagues but appreciate we we're doing to keep the country safe. but i want to talk about the comments made and i want to make sure we are clear. i was a federal prosecutor