report and find it helpful. but we are making a difference in this. >> can you show me the report? can you get that to me within a reasonable period of time? >> to respond to recommendations on oversight, i don't think the va completed them. it isn't a two or three lag. there has been changes made. there is a box checked on the behavioral autopsy report that oversight has been done. >> that is all there is? >> that is one of the things. they are revising guidelines and making progress. but it hasn't been completed to my understanding. >> i am not give you another chance but dr. clancy you said

something in your testimony that was important to me and that is this seems simple but the idea that if people want to hurt them several selves have to hang up and call another. you said you are going to fix that and hit a key and make it work. i want to know when so i can get a date and call the number. >> by november or december. one of the things we have been working closely with the veterans crisis line. we don't want to overstretch that system >> i just want a date so if it isn't there by november or december -- because i agree with

the guy that stood up in the back -- it is just great to keep hearing you will all do work but from where i sit, the actual accomplishment of the job is not happening. so hopefully there is a number we can hit. i have people calling. i will yield back. >> mr. waltz, minnesota. >> thank you to the chairman and thank you for being here. the osi implemented in minneapolis and we have followed this and are getting results. i know this is something knew to

you but we saw a dramatic increase to calls to our office after implemented when is probably expected but i think the lack of maybe being there or the alternative. this issue of mental health priority and treatment certainly is society wide. i am proud of the work this committee started. a small step on clay hunt. but it is the broader issue. on the opioid issue this issue went back and forth from overprescribing to underpre underprecribing that. and i guess the frustration and you hear it from veterans rather here or all of the time this pain management is tough. i say this is i think it is important because i represent the mayo clinic as well.

one of the first bill i moved through was the military care act and veterans pain care act and the vha pain's director 2009-053. what it was is we put together through iom the step care pain model which is the gold standard. the best practice. is that correct? okay. and i will not go through all of her, but what i would say is it had a five-year span. i wanted to go further but it expired in 2014 before fully implemented. it did not reauthorized. but dr. clany, you responded we

don't need approval and i followed up but the frustration is lying in this. seven years ago we were dealing with pain management. we implemented best practices and started but didn't fully implement. eight months ago it expired and three months i asked about it. i hate the exchanges we continue to have. i hate the pattern of communication because it is not boding well for veterans and fitting and it is very irritating. i understand the challenge of this issue. understand the deep positives we are making and the pluses and minuses. the frustration lies more in this may not be the fix but why didn't we do it? >> it has been done.

this is an issue highlighted and put us on the high risk list and we have to get better at the process of updating our directives. but the pain directive has been updated. >> who knows that? >> would the author of the bill not be somebody who should know? >> we will tell you once we review and make sure we have agreement and not missed details. i have not personal seen your letter but i will before the day is over. >> you have other priorities but this is an issue we struggle with. this very thing. our job is tasked do this. we built a great coalition with companies like boston scientific to working with your talented people in this. we have a good piece of legislation on it. we are trying to communicate to implement it and are left in a

no man's land. this is important stuff. there are things and i encourage colleagues to look at this. the thinks i hear the ranking member asking to put in she is clicking into this and that is in the pain management. the things you are hearing from dr. benishek are in the plan. if we get it out implemented and make it sop it would be there. i encourage you in many cases to communicate with us and see us in our words. we look forward to the follow-up and i yield back. >> thank you. dr. roe tennessee. >> thank you, mr. chairman. just a couple things. one on data collection and certainly when draw or produce

data the results may not be accurate. it is important to get the data right because it is conclusions on this many patients did this or that and the outcome is important. when you put bs in you get bs out. and i am being crude but that is what it looks like you have done. and the rank member pooped -- pointed out many alternative theories and dr. murphy

continually complains about being at dod and has a patient stable and they are separated from the military and they go to the va there is a different formula there so they then stop all of what he has taken forever to get the patient stable on and they are now on something else. i think that is something that needs to be addressed. he was very adamant about that and sees it a lot. and i, too, along with dr. benishek was just frustration from probably a veteran who tried to get in or couldn't. and mr. o'rourke has every right to be frustrated when he has people lined up outside of his office talking about not being able to get in the va. let me share why that is frustrating. i have been on the committee six years and we increased the budget 64%. it is not money. it is management. it is not the amount of money we are spending on the veterans.

there is plenty of money out there. i don't understand why the system isn't functioning better. any comments on that? mr. williamson i think you pointed out in your testimony, poor oversight, nor accountability, what happens to someone when they are not following the rules? apparently nothing. you mentioned all of the outcomes and things. mr. williamson? >> directed at oversight? >> yes, sir. >> there is a lot of reasons why that doesn't happen. i think a lot of times the va doesn't have the data that is real, accurate and complete to do that kind of thing. i don't think there is willful vote motives. there is not that accountability that a supervisor is holding his

or her employee accountable. >> that seems basic to doing your job to me. the hold someone accountable for their job. that is not rocket science. you are not doing your job. what happens when you don't do your job? do you lose your job? what happens? >> i am not sure i am the right one to ask that but you know in my perfect world, i would think you would. we are held accountability for the quality of work we do and we get feedback and hopefully corrective action after that. that is business 101. >> so dr. roe, i want to say to you and my colleagues, we share your frustration and i want to absolute my colleagues who are working with others. yes, people do don't do their

jobs should be held accountability if they have the resources. >> mr. o'rourke pointed out 20-something jobs available right now. we claim we have a job problem. 24 people need a job in el paso texas and there is money to fund fund it. why are the positions not filled? >> we have tried a variety of ways to recruit people. mr. o'rourke came in with a group of partners from the committee, and he has my full commitment to -- >> the va is making it hard for the veterans to leave the system and go to private practitioners with the veterans choice card or non-va. we find it is hard for the rules to get out it takes forever to get an appointment. and one last thing, i know my time is expired, but why does it take six months when you call --

i know how frustrated i get when i call taking two for this and three for that, how hard is that to do when someone is thinking about suicide to have a phone changed where they go straight to a person? >> we want to make sure we don't overstress the people who are taking the calls. one of whom recently took their own life. as you can imagine that is a very stressful job. we are testing it first and then rolling it out. >> it may be stressful and i am story for the family but it is stressful on the other end as well. >> we want to make sure when you hit the number that it connects you directly to a counselor. i do have to say that issue of transitions service members over to va they continue on the drugs

they were getting in the service. we have done over this with dr. woodson. >> talk to dr. murphy on the house floor. he is under a different impression >> i would we happy to follow up with him. >> ms.wright, new york. >> thank you, i hate to say the stress for the poor operators comes from the fact they know they will not have the support from the va in getting the callers the help they need. i would like to recognize the work being done in the my home state and the bronx and manhattan. they reject the diagnose later treatment policy i think is all too often adopted by the va. they have taken what shouldn't be a revolutionary pain approach but it is. they believe the first thing you

do is diagnose the patient before developing a path of treatment. instead of prescribing opioids from a default, and i understand when a patient comes and presents with real pain you want to take awiay the pain i get that is the doctor's first mode of reaction. but this facility using alternative approaches like acc accupuncture and exercise to relieve pain and they experience relief from pain without the harmful affects of the narcotics. this should be the norm at all va facilities nationwide. my question is to you dr. clancy what is the va opinion on alternative forms of treatment? >> first, let me tell you i

share your excitement for what division three is doing. we have many thousands of veterans using alternative forms of therapy. there is no aversion. for veterans getting opioids like other americans and some coming to us on active duty the path forward is different. it is not starting from day one. so i love what they are doing in new york. i have spoken with many veterans and have actually begun to thing about using their stories to help those struggling to get off opioids and try alternatives. many of the veterans who take opioids would like not to. but they would like to wake up and it all be okay. the journey there is not so easy. so we actually have -- >> there is a system that we know works. i think one of my colleagues

told the story about noah and clearly he was prescribed drugs, no follow-up, no alternative, any therapy, anything like that. the doctor who is in charge of visn-3 she stated -- she made a statement i thought was accurate, she said to be on opioid opioids is to be trapped in a cycle of poor function and poor pain control. that is what we need to get away from. it is not rocket science. they get it right there. just export it throughout the rest of the country. another thing i wanted to talk about was a bill i happen to be a proud co-sponsor of put forth from senator kind. it would establish a pain management board within each vis

visn to better handle the treatment plans incorporating doctors, patients and family members into decision making process for a veterans' course of treatment. has the vha taken the ideas in this bill under advisement? >> representative kind asked for my comments and i told him he had my support which may be different from the department's support. i cannot think of any reason we would not support that fully. i was inspired in updating the practice guidelines i wanted to make sure we had input from veterans and families in doing that. i told him that. because as heart breaking as some of the experiences of the veterans, are the experiences of families who raise their hands saying i am worried about about my son, daughter and spouse. >> this isn't a service person issue even. this is an entire family issue.

i don't think we want to be a nation that says to our brave men and women who fight for us and come back so damaged and so injured that we are going to do our best to keep you in a catatonic state for the rest of your life as a pain management therapy. this cannot be where we come down on this. so i really i am begging you to do everything you can to look at what they are doing in visn-3 and export it throughout the rest of the country. it is not rocket science. thank you very much mr. chairman. >> i think i am going to sum up the hearing with a veterans health administration would be drugs are a short cut. they are a short cut to doing the right thing. to doing the therepies to treat

veterans. in terms of pain management and those suffering from depressive disorders and it is concerning and unfair to the men and women who made great sacrifices for the men and women in uniform. one question i have is how many rehabilitation physicians does the veterans administration have? >> i would have to take that for the record. >> i have the number of about 40. so there in lies part of the problem. those are the people central when it comes to pain management and we are short changing that. again the easy thing to do is to drug somebody. drug them not to feel pain. drug them to get them up in the morning. drug them so they can go to sleep at night. ...

as a neuroscientist i can tell you, the research is young. every individual experiences pain differently. because of that we also don't have a lot of great treatment options. having said that, there is a lot of research coming out right now that supports this idea of integrated management pain using alternative and complement three medicine. there is some spinal cord stimulation. there was actually a veteran who was addicted to opioids and was able to get off of those drugs through spinal cord stimulation and alternative passages, they live a better life now. these are new technologies, doctors do not know about them.

they are not using them. >> you would agree, drugs should not be the first course of action, they should be the last. >> absolutely. drugs are one option of many they might be necessary, but they should not be the end all be all. >> mr. williams then, how would you view, in terms of the treatment whether for psychotherapy or pain management , from what we're seeing here towards the testimony, seems to be the first and preferred method of treatment. >> i am not a clinician and i am not qualified to answer that.

we are going to be looking at the ba operations relative to opioid programs later this year. i will be educated after that. >> that is not comforting. dr. cutler, what you think? >> i'm glad you asked that question. the bottom line is this, whether it is pain or depression, it takes an integrated approach. different patients need to start in different places. there are patients who say they will not talk about this. a medication would make this possible. in a pain case there are people who need to not go where they mean to go into opioids, but believe this is all that will work.

we need to start where the patient is. with my patient by voice said, i have a lot of different tools talk therapy and medication good and bad in each, one makes sense to you, we can devote area -- we can do both. >> in a report from 2013 it was recommended that ba facilities take action to improve post discharge follow-up. particularly those identified as high risk of suicide. what is being done to ensure that process -- this process is being followed. >> a few years ago, da put out as a performance measure that veterans us be seen in person or at least by phone in the first seven days after leaving a psychiatric hospital. this is the most vulnerable time

for a suicide attempt especially after treatment of depression. we have been monitoring this, we are not perfect, that we have -- i cannot give a number now, we are across the nation we are tracking this. we have taken it further, i wish i could give you the exact number right now. >> from what we are hearing on the ground and in this committee, it is a world apart. for what we are hearing in this committee is true, we would not be here today. >> german, if i might we are not saying everything is fine. what i did want to tell you is we are committed to getting it right. this is tough work. we have a lot to improve on. we very much welcome your support and help. >> very hard to get in writing if you're not a knowledge and problem.

>> thank you to our panel for coming forward and all of the comments. i want to follow up on where we go from here in terms of sharing best practices. we have heard dr. masucci i appreciate your commentary and if you -- expertise in this area. i talked about some examples in white river junction, how do these best practices get shared and the research that is underway, had we move forward to make sure more veterans and families will be served by this? in particular, the clinician education, i think we have to change the many parameters and go to answers to some of the -- that some of the clinicians have. where do we go from here with this?

how can this committee best a on top of that? had we make sure we are serving these veterans all across the country. i will bring el paso out. one of the challenges is this involves a intensive approach. the worst-case scenario is to cancel someone's medication without follow-up, because as we all know that is why people are turning to heroine. how do we get this right? had we get it right up -- across the board? >> what i might suggest is you invite us back for a briefing. we would give you a follow-up. you pick the frequency, a couple of months, three months. i didn't get a chance to say before, i do think people monitoring for this abrupt

discontinuation of medications, i am worried about people changing providers. if we are sending out a message that we want to see fewer veterans on opioids it is much easier for someone to say no when they change providers. that is no definition of success. i want to be clear on this point. some challenges are areas where u.s. medicine is struggling in general, chronic pain. mental health, we have to blaze some trails. there is not one clear-cut test to check on diagnosis or assessment. it depends on standardized questions, and in some cases this we are working hard on. we are changing how we schedule appointments and simple buying it so that it is much more easy to get veterans and for that follow-up. you should hold us accountable,

i would look forward to showing you where we have been and where we are going. in no way do i not what to say we have problems to solve, we do. we are stepping up to them, and we look forward to your support. you can help by working with us on reducing stigma. this remains a huge problem. also i think sending a sense that you are supporting the efforts to get our care for veterans. one of our challenges is a lot of young people are not choosing to go into these fields. that is the ultimate recruitment problem. if they are not -- we have terrific incentives thanks to the hunt act in terms of debt reduction. those are great tools, but someone has to make the decision to go down there. >> thank you. dr., i want to stress the need for you to turn over documents

on request by congress, your failure to do so makes our job difficult. >> dr., thank you for addressing the el paso issue. the feedback stands, i am hearing it directly from veterans that it is apparently not happening in el paso. we must conclude that for every letter and taking time to come to the town hall meeting despite whatever their going through, to tell their congressman they are having the problem with 200 other veterans and are admitting that they are receiving opiates there are many others that that person represents that have given up. we have a problem in el paso perhaps nationally in terms of ripping people down or finding an alternate therapy. i would like you respond to

something that the secretary said, he has 20,000 positions to fill in the vha. it is something that was reiterated three weeks ago, four weeks ago and a hearing here read then when a ranking member and i were in your command and control center on the eighth floor a few weeks act, we heard that number was 50,000 positions to be filled at the vha. could you confirm that number? could you tell me how you are prioritizing those hires? are we treating all hires the same? if you're i prioritize -- if you are prioritizing mental health here is your chance to tell everyone. >> i will have to check the numbers. with 300,000 employees we have

normal turnover which is 7%-8% across all disciplines. areas we are trying to fill this challenging. we have identified five areas that are the highest priority. physicians, nurses, mental health professionals, physician assistants, and i am blocking on the fifth. mental health professionals is on that list. we have been way ahead of the curve compared to the rest of the country in terms of hiring mental health professionals from multiple disciplines. they work as teams, we have been in primary care, as well as mental health clinics. trying to do everything to make it almost impossible to seek assistance and get it if you actually get care from one of our facilities, we have a long way to go. i was simply commenting on the pipeline problem. the other area where we do a lot

now is in tele-mental health. big-screen taxes -- egg spring taxes -- big spring texas, we are working with them to make the business process work as smooth as possible. many veterans prove that. >> i appreciate that. as i yield my time, i will conclude you had asked for an additional briefing or hearing to follow up, i hope that when you come back, you come back with a plan for el paso or any underserved community. you say, we are paying therapist x, i want to pay them x plus

20%. you have a huge problem with retention as well, or some other land -- plan that treats this as the crisis that it is versus we are making us a priority, we are going to do this, that and the other, i need dollars on a table, specific offers deals that will get that psychiatrist or mental health professional there in the first place and keep them there after. i hope for specifics next time. i appreciate your answers today, and i thank you for holding this. >> thank you mr. chair, briefly i want to follow up for my colleagues that we will do a follow-up hearing, not only on the types of pain management and techniques that do seem to be working, but in particular, i would like to include tele-mental health.

may be we could do a short demonstration. that may be an alternative in this crisis situation. i want to make sure we stay on top of this so our colleague -- >> our thanks to the witnesses, your now excused. today we have had a chance to hear about problems that exist within the department of veterans affairs with regards to prescription management and veteran suicides. this hearing was necessary to a competent number of items, to demonstrate the lack of care and follow-up for veterans prescribed medications for mental disorders, to demonstrate the inaccuracies and discrepancies in the data elected by the v.a. regarding veteran suicide and those diagnosed with mental disorders and three, to allow the v.a. to inform the subcommittee when it plans to do to improve these glaring deficiencies to ensure

veterans are receiving the care they deserve. unanimous consent that all members have five legislative dates to extend remarks that include extraneous materials. without objection i would like to once again thank all of our witnesses and audience members for joining in today's conversation. with that, this hearing is adjourned. announcer: on the next "washington journal or co-we will talk to luke messer then congressman david price entree flirtation and hud spending. he is the top democrat on the house of appropriations subcommittee. a preview of this year's congressional baseball game. our guest is joe martin -- joe

barton and mike doyle. washington journal live with your phone calls at 7:00 a.m. eastern on seas in. -- on c-span. announcer: here are some of our programs this weekend. on book tv on c-span2, fox news contributor, kierstin powers says that although they were once champions, liberals are now against tolerance and free speech. on sunday night, former deputy director of the cia, michael brown on the agency's war on terror. on an american history tv on c-span3, saturday night at nine -- 9:15, author kevin mcmahon. sunday night at 6:00 on american artifacts, we visit the national

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announcer: on wednesday, the house debated amendment to the defense spending bill with many of those in the postponed until thursday. one of those amendments would withdraw congressional obligation for the force -- use of force against isis trade here is the debate. >> thank you mr. chairman, this amendment would prohibit funding pursuant to the 2002 a rack -- iraq militarization. i am proud to offer this with my colleagues. why is this amendment necessary? three years ago, president obama declaredraq war -- iraq war was over. since then, the president has stated a number of times that the 2002 aumf is no longer necessary and the congress -- and that congress should work to repeal it. yet congress has allowed this authorization to remain on the

books indefinitely. now we all are familiar with the report, we know what is taking place in iraq syria, and across the middle east as it relates to isil. we all agree they must be degraded an disdismantled. but just as with the 2001 resolution, the 2002 aumf is completely inappropriate to deal with this threat. this is a new war mr. chairman. not an old war. this is a new war which the people of this country have a right to have their members of congress debate and vote on. even the president included a repeal of the 2002 aumf in the proposed authorization he sent to congress in february that we can't even get that authorization brought up for a debate and vote. so simply put, the 2002 authorization is no longer necessary. we need to come back to the drawing board and decide based on what this body wants to do should we vote for a new

authorization or not? if we want to commit the united states to another war in iraq, congress must have that debate and decide whether or not to authorize another war. i'm pleased that my sense of congress resolution, it was an amendment actually affirming this, was passed in a bipartisan basis in committee and is included in this bill. mr. chairman, this amendment is common sense and we cannot continue to leave authorizations for the use of military force on the books indefinitely. it's time for taos reassert our constitutional prerogative to declare war or not, to debate and vote on any military action in iraq. let me yield to our ranking member mr. visclosky. mr. visclosky: i would reiterate my comments from the gentlewoman's previous amendment and that is, after 13 years, things have changed. one of the changes we ought to make in this chamber is to have again that wholesome debate as to what the parameters of our

military involvement overseas is going forward from this point in time not the beginning of the previous decade, and appreciate the gentlewoman offering the amendment. ms. lee: thank you. mr. chairman, how much time do i have remaining? the chair: the gentlelady has two minutes remaining. ms. lee: ok, mr. chairman, let me just say with regard to this amendment, congress has a constitutional responsibility. it's our prerogative to declare war or not. it's our prerogative to debate and vote on any military action anywhere in the world, more than a prerogative it's our constitutional responsibility. we represent the american people. the american people deserve to have a voice in such grave matters. that's why the constitution required that. and for us not to do our job and to continue to rely on old authorizations from 13 and 14 years ago, really is an

abdication of our responsibility. people did not elect us to congress to duck and dodge the hard questions and the hard issues. some of us agree we need to go to war. some of us don't agree. but that's not the issue. that's not what this amendment nor my prior amendment was about. it was about our -- doing our job here, laying out the pros and cons, making some heavy duty decisions and that's what they are, that's why we're here and then instructing our commander in chief what congress believes should be the appropriate course of action. many would vote for it many would vote against it. but again, not to have this debate and vote when we're now 10 months into another war is down right wrong. it's almost lawless. it's something that -- it's hard to imagine getting away with this long. so i hope we get a good bipartisan vote on this. it's about time that we do

debate this. again, if the speaker did not like the president's authorization that he brought forward then let's get another authorization. let's write one ourselves. let's bring forth, i have one, i know other members have one, let's bring forth an authorization and debate what we want to do moving forward. that's the wise thing to do. that's the smart thing to do. that's the right thing to do. we have troops and -- troops in harm's way. they need to know what their members of congress believe, what the constitution requires in terms of doing our job. they deserve that. the chair: for what purpose does the gentleman from new jersey seek recognition? mr. frelinghuysen: i rise in opposition. the chair: the gentleman is recognized. mr. frelinghuysen: as i said, currently u.s. forces are conducting multiple air strikes against isil in iraq and syria. without this authority, those campaigns would stop. certainly much has happened

since the authority was first given. as a matter of fact, things are getting far worse than they have been in the past. acceptance of this amendment would rob our country of one of the key authorities our command for the chief needs and relies on to keep us safe and to address these type of crises which seem to occur all over the middle east. therefore i announcer: today the house is supposed to vote on several amendments to our live coverage begins at 10:00 a.m. eastern time here on seas and. -- c-span. today, the csa nominee. and later veteran suicides. this morning the leader of the

scottish national party will talk about her parties historic gains in recent elections, and the relationship between scotland and the british government. live coverage begins at 8:30 eastern time on c-span two. later, federal government whistleblowers on c-span3. announcer: the new congressional directory is a handy guide to the 114th congress color photos, plus bio and contact information and twitter handles trade also, district maps, a full doubt map of cop -- capitol hill. a closer look at the cabinet governors,. order your copy today. it is available on the c-span

online store at c-span.org. announcer: the rector of clinical cardiology, dr. patrick o'gara on the advances of heart surgery in the progress being made in the understanding of heart health. dr.: this is actually a valve that has been crypt on -- crypt -- crimped it will be deployed and the new valve will go inside the old calcified valve. the delivery system is being withdrawn and the wire will be drawn -- withdrawn. what we have seen is the replacement of a diseased they were excelled -- diseased aortic valve. we are trying to become smarter

about predicting who will get disease, we are trying to become smarter as to identifying the most effective means to prevent the disease, and smarter about following up for a longer. of time. we are currently a in an era where we are harnessing the promise of the human genome, research project that is now 10 years old. with everything driven by the giants of the industries and information about sociology, demographics where you live, where the railroad tracks are what is your likelihood to get diabetes on the basis of your education, and what is your likelihood of developing something like diabetes or hypertension if you live in a certain part of a city where you have less access to the right kinds of food, or even

instructions about sodium consumption, little things like that that could have enormous impacts. announcer: dr. patrick o'gara sunday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span's "q and a." announcer: peter nesson and her is the nominee to head the transportation security administration. he discussed challenges facing the tsa including lapses and airport security and background checks of tsa employees. this hearing is an hour and 20 minutes. >> this hearing will come to the order. >> this hearing will come to order per cry will welcome the admiral and we appreciate your willingness to serve considering your nomination for the position to his vacation security administration we had an interesting hearing yesterday and i thank you come into this position

understanding you have significant challenges ahead of you and we are looking forward to the hearing today. we're looking forward to your oral testimony and answers to our questions. i will hold off on further comments. also the united states postal service and other agency that will require a lot of the box thinking so i just want to thank both nominees for your willingness to serve in that i turned over to the ranking member. >> thank you for your service you have anybody with your family here today? some brief comments thank you for joining us yesterday

also in to take the measure that tsa has been now with the leader since the end of last year from press reports from famous briefings guess it faces serious challenges from the senate confirmed leadership with someone that we believe can provide those needs right now. to serve as a commissioned officer in 1982 but vice commandant through may 2014 and the admirable -- general has shown difficult challenges to all -- had on

as the commander for the deep water horizon oil spill but has said vhs inspector said they need someone that is rolling toward knowledge and confront that will strive for perfection while addressing at the same time the priorities of security and expedited travel. we want to make sure people get where they need to go safely and teetoo expedite to the security checkpoints but oftentimes it is not an easy job and we're grateful for the people who'd do this work and to meet the challenges that we provide that support that they need.

i had the opportunity to meet recently with the position for the agency to be the right person for the job at this time. and david shapiro sitting in the front row but to serve as governor is the very challenging time at the postal service as albert einstein once said with diversity this opportunity to buy the same token in a lot of opportunity the postal service with the massive logistics' industry and even as lost to other forms of communication it could be any number of ways a of some were discussed yesterday it is still effective option for her

thousands that people still like to receive the mail not even the millenials the commerce is booming and even the postal service the competitors will rely on that to carry for the last mile they always want to do not want to the last 3 miles or 5 miles but the postal service is happy to do that they go that way anyway. of ford to anything needs to be done in the ongoing challenges with the skills and experience that you will bring to the board as a

company with nearly 40,000 employees to bring a unique position - - perspective if confirmed mr. shapiro it would double the size and read that a real opportunity here to strengthen the postal service. i want to thank both of the nominees and hopefully we can call him governor shapiro. with the accord to hearing from you. >> thank you senator carter. please rise and raise your right hand to use through the testimony is the truth of whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god? please be seated.

vice admiral, admiral neffenger for us of the coast guard 34 years of service to held key leadership positions and served as the sector commander from 2008 through 2010 with the coast guard district for coast guard operations to help secure 1500 miles of u.s.-canada border with the commander through the deep water horizon oil spill in the gulf of mexico. >> thank you mr. chairman i have an opening statement. good morning to members of the committee i am privileged to be here before u.s. the nominee as the head of the tsa i am honored by his call to service his

secretary johnson has given strong leadership to the department. with a 30,000 members of the artillery that i have been privileged to serve and i have learned important leadership and duty to people and excellence i want you to know i am deeply honored to secure the transportation system that you have a difficult missions that has caused in detail with high level of respect i of confidence in them. to pursue solutions from covert testing the must be in place for the vulnerabilities. to drive a focus on the primary emotion to secure

aviation and must be a culture of the evolution of plants am processes with a new concept of operation and new capabilities. and turning the confidence of the public with discipline performance their professionalism to bring a perspective to address the immediate challenges to accomplish the most important mission of the tsa that is critical if confirmed it is up the corps in one that has been proven in their real world. the clear and unequivocal peters of performance with the relentless pursuit of accountability after a disservice for leadership

positions culminating in my current duties as second in command is the coast guard with there premiere law-enforcement agency. with a more complex responsibility of confirmed with my extensive experience of law-enforcement to ensure the nation's transportation system. that the global tariffs that have evolved is more decentralized and more complex of our intent to strike united states and we know that some of these are focused on commercial aviation. the threats are persistent in devolving and work-force training and accountability if confirmed but i will pay

close attention to the tsa work force and examine how the academy further improves performance with a critically important mission and will focus on customer service with the effective screening to be treated with respect. to address that persistent terrorist threat we must question ourselves with more capabilities and adapt for those who wish to harm us envision what comes next. as such if confirmed i will ensure this tsa is a high in the cable terrorist organization. has multilayers operations their recruits and retains the skill of a highly trained workforce of professional values and accountability.

now pursues his - - a pursues its van strategies and continues to strengthen the integration with the private sector with federal state and local partners and will follow the strategy to adapt appropriately forever proven record and an extensive background to apply security principals of maritime threats to other transportation modes and have proven to be decreases to make then need to be aware with the protection of liberty's and if confirmed safeguarding privacy interest will be a top priority for our look forward to partner with this community with the safety of the travelling public and in closing i think president

obama than the chairman and ranking member for the opportunity to appear before you today. i look forward to your question. >> also it is the job to ask all nominees a series of three questions. is anything you are aware of the my present a conflict of interest to which it is the office of which have been nominated? >> no sir. >> you know, anything personal that would prevent you to keep your responsibility to the office of which have been nominated? >> no, sir. >> to testify can you testify before any committee if you are confirmed? >> and during that hearing it was pretty stark the dual

mission on the of one hand you have the need for efficiency so nobody misses their flight on the other hand, can you speak to the nature of those two goals in three plays priory? >> would be happy. from my perspective with my career in the coast guard never lost sight of safety and security of people using maritime transportation system. we still need to move goods is services and that is no different it is critical you move people through that system effectively. it is always a balancing act

but if you focus on security and are transparent by definition it creates inefficiencies. before 9/11 most ports were wide open the issue needed to move a lot of stuff there is a lot of access points because of trucks and rail but after 9/11 13 started to look at those first attempts it was the real challenge to figure out how to do that without clogging up the system working with the private sector partners there is a lot of good ideas that we can benefit the debt would be no different with

aviation so in those recent findings of the inspector general you have to do that very carefully with the people who were running the major airlines with the airport environment to explain why to see what that looks like it in the future it will take out of the box thinking and what would that look like if we decide that for tomorrow? that is the balance between those two but i don't think it is impossible just difficult. >> we surprised with fake

explosives? >> it disturbs me and is confirmed as the immediate priority to close the gaps to look systemically. >> to your knowledge that reality? for what tsa is security theater. for those checkpoints to read acknowledge the fact is simply is not working? >> so with a security system so think of entering that system so to be looked at in

some way. to be balanced against all right database. and these are some of the questions raised. and with the destination airport on the other and i want to be looked at. and i want other things to be happening as well. i want to know as much as i can about the travelers coming through. and to do that for a good reason. the following that i would like to know there are a number of things that might

have been. trying to make my way through this system i wanted to be predictable so to have players in the system so those that are described to me as bomb sniffing dogs i'd like to understand what is the effectiveness behind that the world is looking at the threat to understand how that'd devolving to look at

the things that are recommended then go back immediately. and there are disturbing of of great concern of what you need to find out. >> another vulnerability with the airports and the air -- with the airlines with the ig report showing we're not matching up everybody to all potential watch list. is this a commitment to make sure the tsa enters into the agreement with every possible watch list is utilized? >> that is imperative. is the coast guard i have said working within the intelligence community for quite a few years and one of the findings of the nine living commission was the

failure to link itself together so it is imperative that they have information to the same database so i would absolutely commit to that. >> with that statement that secretary johnson says you are a the smartest she has ever met and he said there is to. [laughter] but with the chairman's question that was excellent. look at the ig report the 95 percent failure rate with the attempts to pierce the system and those that were

successful but if you go back over the last 10 years we measure a lot of metrics. how many people died because of explosions and that is what we need to keep in mind i was told remember to keep the main thing the main thing. the main thing is to make sure they go where they need to go safely and expeditiously. i want to talk about agency morale. to do more of that. and i would say some from another state read the to

find him or her from the state to delaware. and the coast guard has very highbrow by common metrics there has to be some lessons learned as he tried to move some idea is what can we learn from the coast guard to help improve that route from those of the tsa? >> you are right to think they do have a high morale and to me that begins with a dealership that invest in the mission. you have to have alignment.

if you say the mission is the most important but then it is said to them most important. i think tsa has the great mission. and it is no problem to have that dash did it isn't one time trading but it is a continuous process the kitchen after trade that organization some of the best innovations come from the front line doing the work but those men and women to rigo work is no different from the tsa. the transportation and security officers is the

face of tsa and also of mission you need to trade and empower them and listen to them for now they are failing with procedures or equipment to not allow them to meet the mission you have to the value and support that work force and have their back for cry had a great opportunity with rated airport as part of the briefing to prepare for this. they were very afraid in a nuclear they understand the mission. there are those who raise their hands against all enemies and to connect to a mission and that it begins the upward movement.

but said to have that accountability so with that inconsistency it isn't long before it is is serious about it to set and communicate clear standards is that you grow up with it in the military. they are the people that do the work for the resources and training to have their back to look for ways to empower them to do their job >> you learned an important lessons about leadership? i was calling to ask you to

talk about some of them but you already have the think about that question the most important part of success is leadership. talk to us why you thank you have ben successful as a leader? to read as i said it was lucky i had great parents but i have been fortunate to work alongside dedicated people. but you do the best i can to the best of my ability we will figure it out together and going up in the organization helps you to have leadership but the best

leadership is the site to site wording from the people working with you. if you are trained to do the mission is somebody is not performing there will be held to account because that is part of the leadership what is the job and watery trying to do here? is somebody who understands to take advantage of their strengths so whenever that current task is to evaluate how it was conducted with that of what you talk about the opening comments in the my find excellence in the process.

your id is character at the every level. >> my time is expired that we just received an excellent tutorial of leadership. >> thank you senator. >> i will be it in and out we have of markup and i need to be there as well. until we can figure it out i will be in both places. >> thank you. admiral thank you for being here today and for your service for a few have done an excellent job to lay out your vision. something senator carter brought up yesterday during our hearing he asked the witnesses to provided vice to congress to address the recent problems addressed earlier and in response to

raise the lack of oversight with the numerous contracts to measure performance it is an issue for many of us hopefully introduce a legislation but if you are confirmed in regard to the numerous contracts and obligations. i had a lot of experience to look how those were put in place with that component

acquisition that i am responsible to a higher as to do things so mostly in the area of itt's services and financial management. but contrasting can be a very useful tool if used appropriately but you need the strongest controls and people who are trained to but to have a process and i am a substance guy but it doesn't occur so that means one of the requirements to generate for why i hire a contractor in the first place and to determine it is

correct to return to the potential contractors is it tidy enough to be overseen? so to understand that contract to read that require me and what is my access strategy if it is not working? all of those bad to the process. looking from the front to the and not just what is right now but if confirmed one of the things i intend to do is to look carefully of resources are extended but with contacting because it can be an invisible world of not careful. of with program management

with the important bottom line. thank you. and supporting a number of those trends and to make up a large portion with us tsa with transportation and security officers and as they are uniquely qualified for these positions in the security space is there even more that can be done to recruit for our veterans? >> edits a wonderful question but i agree there is provide of wonderful potential source of employment and to accomplish that mission there is room for that.

we'll look for opportunities and to increase that were possible. >> and last, very briefly rigid have questions about the pre-check program coming now from yesterday's hearing. we heard a lot from the different witnesses that expressed concern of the of free check program and there are security risks with that can you address those pre- check idea is the we are property that those travelers may be not just than that out like candy? >> i believe in the trust of the population in the more you can know about

population the more comfortable i.m. so i am a fe and of vetting going into pre-chat with a fully vetting population but how can those be expanded to make that entry into that system more accessible? but the goal should be a pre-check population that is the vetting population that has expanded based on that. >> i appreciate your answers and your testimony in a look forward to working with you in the future. >> thank you for your service. with your pre-hearing

questions if you believe the tsa fills aviation responsibilities he did not directly answer the question of the wood is sure it remains laser focused on the core mission. do you believe tsa is laser focus on the core mission? >> that is the question given the results of the inspector general investigation there are still levels of security but with respect to the equipment by the inspector general of one to provide you with a true and complete your answer if confirmed and the immediate task with eight internal work because what are they finding? so what is the extent of

those gaps as we look for the systemic issues and then going back then to look how that fits into the entire system if there is the captive in a another layer for the security system because as it works asshole is the effectiveness with those individual components with the decision. >> i appreciate that leering peace but you think it is succeeding in its mission? >> i travel a lot and i travel to the west coast this weekend but if that feeling was a good feeling to have that is the way

because the equipment it occurred at a number of airports. i don't even look at how that was done what has the tsa currently done? >> i appreciate reran a classified briefing yesterday but for those pushing on those issues i will be honest i am not that surprised by the 96% issue because there are other classified reports we cannot reveal the particulars of in this setting but you're not answering the question whether you think it is succeeding or failing in its mission. >> i appreciate where you are going senator. the reason i'm not giving a direct user because there are aspects that to work but

i want to know how well and i think some of the name based checking is working at a now how effective it is so if confirmed today given deeper some of what i have heard is reassuring and some of is deeply disturbing. >> without revealing any details to give the terrorists are roadmap to believe the public has a right to know more of the feelings? >> i of the fan of transparency is in the government to make clear how effective the government is and what we do about it so i am a fan of that but not a fan of giving away secrets to our enemies are to expose

for their abilities. that is the delicate line line, but i don't want to give comfort or help to those who would harm us survive so my calls are to declassify with the american people about how badly it is dealing with a caveat which did not reveal any details to give them a road map but the point about security theater one of the main benefits is the deterrent benefit those that were functioning much more but "politico" said he would have the of our herculean turnaround do you think that is what is required? >> first of all a refocus with the understanding that this organization has got to

be the day you thank you have it right that is the day will be defeated you question in every assumption about your performance because somebody will question you if you don't do with yourself then you are staying ahead of the people who are questioning you and it doesn't surprise me but what do you do internally. >> if you fix a broken institution that requires admitting the institution is broken. secretary johnson said that tsa is the best model of risk-based security and he specifically highlighted the pre-check system we know they fail to catch weapons 26% of the time i am curious

how can rehab these type of security lapses 40 years after 9/11? >> is a question that made me say yes to take the job. my family travels i wanted to be safe for all americans i care very deeply about the safety and security of the nation i went to answer that is in the affirmative way i don't know if this is right now that will be my focus for a promise i will come back to this committee to lay out that i find to do so in the unclassified setting. >> that the magnitude of the challenge what grade would you give the hsn tsa?

>> it may be premature to assign a letter grade that i will come back with that if i am confirmed that as a former college president and no where a 4 percent success rate could be anything fan and death. we need to address the magnitude of this problem and people have a right to understand more clearly. >> so to fully admit you have a problem but that with the 25,000 flights what are the odds? henry have to read the problem.

>> i appreciate you being here for your willingness to take on the position the nominee for this position so i appreciate your willingness to take this on and as you heard this testimony in the classified setting what would you prioritize the first thing that you will do if confirmed for this position? >> my first priority is to ensure that those are carried out and extended if necessary.

but to close the gaps the to look systemically across the organization how much will it take to do this over time. >> with the testimony we heard yesterday that was disturbing with respect to this 73 airport workers that the ig found links to terrorism that we were told in fact, tsa was not fully vetting those employees against all the information that the fbi had in terms of those with the terror watchlist. i heard yesterday identified the problem that then we went to the fbi to ask for

information hear we are in 2015 if it is that urgent that there was not the immediate fix it is pretty disturbing. when i was asked is if this committee if you find something like that you don't wait for the bureaucracy to answer but you let us know to make sure a fix like that that is so obvious and immediate so we don't have 73 airport workers with ties to terrorism that we find right away that we are vetting people of fully to not let the bureaucracy bog us down purple will you commit if you find something like that you are now waiting for an answer for it -- from another agency budding gauge as to help you to protect the american public? >> i could not agree more on that issue. absolutely there are legislative fixes i will be

the first to come back to request those fixes is but if confirmed we are connected to those databases as us full member now i understand the importance that was one of the key findings. >> 9/11 was about communication. >> i am in full agreement. >> i appreciate that. and you take on this task of leadership right now to understand this committee is committed to having your back. if you find saying is that need to be fixed right away if they are wrong and you need legislation that this has to be a priority we want

to work with you to make sure we get there right one thing and want to ask about is we had testimony before a committee of whistle-blowers they were compelling about what they went through individually to tell their story is rewind of culture if you bring forward that information in this deal -- you are punished or swept aside if you ring gauge with the employees in your organization to come forward as whistleblowers to those deficiencies he will fully support them to make sure they have the support to make sure we understand all the problems and can address them? >> i do commit to that and i do believe in fighting mechanisms to express

concerns if they see a problem i want to hear about it. if they don't feel there is any other way than to go outside the organization it is still an important item believe there should be any punishment against an individual. these are people who raise their hand to taken no stand they find something and it takes a lot of courage to speak out and go outside your organization. we should commend them to the courage. >> was glad to hear you say that you think the terms of pre-check we need to ensure a fully vetted program and also the other issue is the issue that has popped up in another context where we know behind-the-scenes, the

access given with those badges in the airport and in fact the system is one where the airports are controlling that we cannot account for where all the badges are so take a careful look at those badges to make sure we're not giving people access that we should not. >> i will do that. >> one final thing is the thing that i took from the testimony yesterday classified and unclassified, there are many sops but inconsistent with that application is so if it is the checklist because it'll make takes as you know , one instance of the sops to not be followed of those checks in place to allow a terrorist through. so i want to get your perspective on that and what we should be doing to make

sure there is consistency. >> that is a great question and fundamental to how they perform the mission so it is all about standard operating procedure so you can ensure your focused on the mission and. those can be refined overtime to be straightforward and clear to have a consistent way to train to those standards whether through resident training or through teams that train or individual units. you have to have a way to determine if those standards are being adhered to. so in the coast guard my experience has been standardization in teams that go around and test it people are living up to the standards of to and including the inspector general it is usually just a

matter to what people through the procedures he will confront this situation so what is the procedure? a checklist can help where it is appropriate but it is also an understanding of the process of you focus on the mission what do i need to do to accomplish the mission and what are the standards and the process and what can be done in the checklist fashion and then how do i pinscher it is done? then do it again. i concur it is important to look at the current sops can you understand what you are reading? does it make sense or reduce the things we ought to add? what i have discovered is you can become a slave to your sops than not be aware of the real process.

be careful not to just go through the motion but you need a thinking population. we get that all the time in the military then when somebody asks why then you say i have no idea. [laughter] >> senator langford? >> thank you. thank you for your past service and to take this on as a consideration for to have been asked to consider leading an agency right now that has very low morale morale, systemic problems problems, recent bad evaluations can use is the are wrong metrics the way they evaluate their own performance. that is not an easy thing to step into or uneasy assignment regard this so thank you for your consideration. and went to bounce a couple of issues off of you.

some of the metrics of evaluating the issue of conduct purses' performance whether the goal is to quickly get people in line or for safety checks i think we can do both right now we're pushing on the speed rather than safety like we put ourselves back to sleep on critical issues. how will you would just that with the valuation that i want to move from here to route to how to read engaged there are some great folks that serve that have been terrific service but the morale is terrible nationwide. >> thank you. i thank you hit on the key concern which is the care of the workforce and the

training and the brow for cry mentioned in an earlier question about this same issue rile is the important mission and we already have that. a clear sense and dedication of the leadership to perform that mission so talk about the potential disconnect is key to one fundamental aspect of route. if i am told the most important thing i can do is protect the travelling public but i am not measured how i do that is a disconnect my fear is that breeds cynicism to low morale so i get that so first what is the most important thing? why did you raise your hand?

not many people do that so they are still among the though 1%. you deserve to support them. up next comes training you have to train them and to continually trade them to get them in the continual learning process in a callous that different from what is happening out? because all of those things are occurring now. >> i am not sure, i think over time it is easy for reorganization to shift focus to think they have the mission right and work on other things. you cannot -- never stop referring back what i found in my service in the coast guard even in a high morale organization you could have pockets of low morale, the date you get complacent at the leadership level to thank you have it right. space gets tired of being

reminded of how important their job is are being trained burchfield good how to use equipment and no one gets tired of engaging with that organization so it is the engagement you cannot thank you have a right because as you have a meeting and move on. in annual surveys are a good place to figure out where to ring gauge more effective but it only raises questions >> the hiring and training makes a difference there working in close quarters of there is a bad apple is difficult for everyone in the group to manage those attitudes emplacement to make the enormous difference tsa has millions of dollars of equipment stored in the warehouse is to determine that deficiency when they will purchase something

different with a 2% gain is that enough? it involves billions of dollars of procurement and so is that a change of attitude for you? >> my current role of ethnic component executive for the coast guard's ally oversee the whole acquisition and process that starts with the basic requirements of how the mission and can be accomplished and the threats to keep us from accomplishing the mission then you build the requirements that you need summer human summer equipment and those are interactive. then you have to have the ability to translate those into this thing that you need to buy. so there is a process and i have learned if we completely rebuilt the acquisition program we did

not have one of the best processes and government but i do think we do now because we looked at it from start to finish you cannot simply walk out to say give me something that will do something. i don't blame industry for providing things that don't work. they will provide what they have but you really need to examine what do i need to know? if you look at a piece of detection equipment what do i need it to find? what are the limitations of that technology? so what are the other requirements on top of it? it is not just for the equipment but what it cannot do. that is combined into the procurement process is indeed a rigorous process to read here to oversight and controls to separate the person who writes the

requirement to the person who implements to oversee the program and a person and contracting and the more separation you can have among those a more rigorous up process or you run into schedule preachy and cost overrun. >> gan to evaluate not based on the laboratory very real world function ability and that has been a problem that we have to have the real world involvement and the chairman indulgence with the pre-check issue people are coming through that are not really preach checked so we need to change the name gore really focus on pre-check. not those that have really gone through the process but it seems we increase the number of people for efficiency but we're losing the focus of what it is

designed to do and the actual security proposal trying to increase efficiency but losing the focus on security is a recipe for disaster so pre-check should be pre-check with the background more than book of profile. thank you. >> senator? america want to add my voice to with the senator just said. this has got to mean something it cannot be you flew a lot of miles and nothing bad happened so you get the pass you have to know who we're dealing with. want to add my voice how grateful we are you are stepping up to take on this enormous challenge. to opted rigo say thank you to those folks that goes to

that onerous and difficult process, but we are extraordinarily grateful. we find more and more people that put on the uniform of our country to serve tend to step up to continue their service so thank you with your willingness to take this on ion excited about the changes i know you will make having been in important leadership positions in the past. but what i do want to talk about is how do you engage everyone regardless if they are collecting the trays to the curve -- the person at the very top? how do they have a sense of purpose was strategy's kid

you deploy to improve route but the sense of importance? >> the need to look at how do we teach people? thinking back to my experience, in our case everybody read dave wonderful letter from treasury secretary hamilton the very first instruction to that than commanding officers of the carter service there precursor to the coast guard. was challenging there were told to go do something that has never been done before to collect a tariff something merchant vessels were not pleased about and did not want to encounter the new government trying to

assert its power. in the process he lays out the requirements and duties and obligations. but he said something very interesting that begins that cultural indoctrination into always keep in mind your countrymen are impatient. that is wonderful and it goes on and on the letter is multiple pages but it is repeated over and over again throughout your career in the coast guard. we use it when we of various people in ring can promote them and with a new oath of office to remind them that he will do things that by nature interfere with the free movement of people and sometimes it will interfere with their individual rights

because they bite to do something and you will get in their way. it doesn't have to offend them or that does not respect them. how does tsa do that? what is the way that tsa indoctrinates or provides a culture? there is the tsa academy had not know how well attended that have deep engaged with the work force? we live in engaged it is easy to communicate with people i don't except the adp to shore where the dispersed you cannot find a way to talk to them. we do this all the time to work in small unit teams i cannot touch every single member every day but i can assure myself that they are plugged into the organization. if confirmed am booked ways to do that with the tsa and

connect leadership to the front-line the another big factor of more route is how distant is your leadership from the people doing the work? i don't do the work of the coast guard any more. the coast guard does the work that people on the front line. how do they know i am paying attention and i have their back to provide them with tools and training if i don't teenage? that is what i look to while i connect to the work force and then met what i said -- i meant what i said about commitment to excellence and service to the nation on a daily basis i am always astonished at the new things that i've learned about. >> has been said already but improving the morale of tsa to reduce turnover, you have

an appreciation how important their work is and how much their country is counting on them and as we saw their work can be dangerous and they need to be appreciated for that to stand on those frontlines to be the signal for go the other thing i would say that the public gets frustrated is when they don't see value added to the savings that tsa does. why would we need to do that? it is important your communication and why they need to do that talks about the challenges that you have so people like us at airports better understand what that goal is so rough for that suggestion not that we spend a lot of time

talking to the travelling public about the importance of what you do. we have great hope for you if there is something we can do or ideas were the laws restrict you i hope you come back to the committee or individually to say this makes no sense. please change it. >> thank you senator. we're pretty well covered most of the issues. but i will make a statement. regardless of the fact we have not had additional airplanes used as a weapon because we did deal with solutions to hard in those cockpit doors effective from the standpoint of security i do believe the tsa has been in denial of the processes and procedures we have in

place it will catch the water bottle or my of little boy scout pocket knife that i did not realize was in my briefcase for those determined people i think that is pretty telling. it is a matter to recognize reality we have those problems but i will ask given testimony yesterday one of the whistle-blowers claimed the feeling of fear and mistrust and the senator charts to retaliation which we will have a hearing tomorrow on whistle-blowers and the type of retaliation but it is disturbing across the government how prevalent that is and there is that problem within the tsa as well some of you have a

significant management challenge with low morale i do you really believe is a possible to have that prevalent feeling of fear and mistrust? but from that tedious nature it is into complacency. how you manage that or rotation of storer provide incentives to keep people alert? but the fear and mistrust statement from mr. delaware? >> i hope it is said a pervasive fear and mistrust but i will tell you that i start from that premise of trusting maya organization. that is where you learn the most about what you are doing. i will commit this is one of the most important thing is