thomas. that is followed by prime minister's questions at the british house of commons. then, another chance to get our interviews with rand paul and bernie sanders. ♪ >> this week on "q&a," our guest is evan thomas, author of "being nixon: a man divided." he talked about the life and career of richard nixon, focusing on the personal stories that help define our nations 37th president. brian: evan thomas, your new book on richard nixon starts out in a way that i assume no other richard nixon book has started talking about virgil. why? evan: nixon was in that latin play when he was a high school or, and he had never kissed

anybody. he had to go kiss. the never kissed anybody before and he lumbers across the states to kiss her and the high school students arrived in laughter derision mocking. it was an early case of nixon having to deal with adversity. he was humiliated. he tries to make up with the girl who becomes his girlfriend and he learned to deal with diversity and to come back and show people. brian: his girlfriend ola florence weltz. evan: there are hundreds of oral histories about his high school and college years at whittier college and at cal state fullerton.

she was quite touching about nixon. she found him to be impressive and not to normal high school kid. she first wrote in her diary, i hate richard nixon, but she was his girlfriend for four years. she finally dumped him and he was sad about that, but he found pat and was pretty happy. evan: i came away that there is an awful lot of personal stuff in here. unlike some books that only worry about the history part of it. evan: i don't think you can do nixon without doing the personal. you watch nick said you wonder, what is driving this guy, what is it like to be nixon. i called my book "being nixon" because i was really curious about what it would be like to

be richard nixon. he seemed haunted at times troubled at times, enthusiastic at times, proud at times, his chief of staff called him the weirdest man i ever met. he was, for better or for worse, a weird man. brian: we have a lot of video we want to show that parallels your book. first, we will go to a phone conversation and his chief of staff we just fired on april 30 1973. that is after he gave an important watergate speech. let's listen. >> hello? >> i hope i didn't let you down. >> knows her. >> i'm never going to discuss a

thing again. >> you have done it now, laid out your position. >> they waiting to see what the polls show. brian: what are you hearing? evan: he has had a couple of drinks. the dow call capacity was low so maybe it was just one drink. he could sound drunk on one drink. the other thing, he just fired him on national tv. the -- you could tell he was upset that no one was calling.

the asked if you could get people to call again the old days. it is poignant, it is heartfelt. he actually does love the guy he is just fired on national tv. you can tell he is going down. he is going to be in office for another 15 months so it will take a while but he is finished as of april 30 1970, and you can hear it in his voice. brian: these are not chronological recordings, just a way to see how he was like sometimes off-camera. this is from 1982, it was on cnn crossfire. pat buchanan was interviewing him and this is when they were in commercial. >> i think maybe we can get through lbj in that period.

>> there is this terrible book out on him. >> did you read it? >> it has gotten some rave reviews. unbelievable. animal. brian: i don't you get things like this but we got it. evan: that is the full nixon because he actually admired lbj. both were politicians with a p in both understood power with a p. even though johnson had called nixon a traitor, and had

arguably disrupted these big note -- these big negotiations to win the presidency, it is a murky and not good chapter in nixon's history. johnson called nixon a traitor for having done that. you can see nixon also admires what a man lbj was. he was a man. port next and wanted to be a man. he got himself in more trouble on those tapes like trying to appear macho. all that swearing and profanity nixon wasn't even good at it. it wasn't natural to him. you could hear lgb a -- here lbj swear he was good at it. nixon wasn't a macho guy.

he was shy intellectual thoughtful. he couldn't let himself be that. i think that is one of the reasons he destroyed himself. brian: how in the world can you be shy in the presidency? evan: that is one of the reasons why wrote the book. one of the most introverted politicians ever became one of the most successful politicians in the 21st century. he was on five national tickets he won the presidency twice. he could barely make small talk. sometimes you just spin his hands. he just couldn't do smalltalk and he was a terrible blurred or. there is a scene -- he runs into

jackie kennedy and martin luther king junior's funeral and he says to mrs. kennedy, this must bring back many memories. this cringe making. you just blurt things out because you're uncomfortable. nixon would do this all the time. he was terrible at smalltalk, he like to be alone. people used to say that he was always writing on yellow pads. he didn't have any best friends. the secret service would sit on the boat with them and listen no conversation.

he was depressed and this high living center, a friend of jack kennedy from florida, a democrat , brought him to florida to cheer them up and have a guys weekend out on the boat. nixon was really not good at either of those things. at first, he thought who is this guy, he's no fun, but a can sip was established. there was a vulnerability and a sincerity. he understood that what nixon needed was companionship without talk. brian: he was here in 1992 for his book, "seize the moment." we had some clips from that just to get you to reflect on what you see in this. there is one where he talks about how he sizes of people. >> i am not one of those who believes in the psychiatric

examination. i believe that most of these people should be on the stories themselves rather than to psychoanalyze people that have never met. on the other hand, when i meet people, i don't judge them in terms of whether they have a firm handshake or eye contact. these are things that are learned. when i try to do when i meet people is to listen to what they say. you don't learn a thing when you are talking, you learn a great deal when they are talking. brian: is talking about you there. evan: one of the many tragedies of richard nixon was that he was not very self-aware. there are endless ironies here. he did have a psychiatrist. he was an internist.

nixon went to him because he had psychosomatic illnesses in the 50's and he gave him some mild therapy. even though he went to one, he hated his psychiatrist and was always announcing him. he was afraid in a way of looking at himself in a realistic way. he said i don't carry grudges. richard nixon was one of the greatest grudge carriers of all time. this lashing out of enemies is what really hurt it. his last words were something along the lines of don't hate your enemies. it is self-awareness but it is way too late. brian: you do spend a lot of

time talking about his mother hannah, his brother frank. what did you learn about that? evan: his father was a bully and his mom was a saint, but kind of a passive aggressive saint. he was desperately trying to win her love. the older brother died of tb and what his younger brothers who is very sweet died -- who was very sweet, died. his mother said that he tried to be both of those boys and he couldn't be. he was very forlorn. he carries issues around in a bag. he was a lonely forlorn boy trying to please his parents in a way that i'm not sure he ever succeeded before becoming president. brian: his brother had

tuberculosis and went off to a different part away from them. evan: nixon was excepted to harvard out of high school but couldn't go because the money held used to take care of the older brother. mom had gone out into the desert in arizona and rented a place -- in those days, tb sufferers would go to dry places because it was pre-antibiotics. nixon loses his mother to go take care of his dying older brother as a teenager. i think that was tough for him. brian: talking about the unusual nature of his personality. here is a story from when we did our in-depth. >> the only person i've ever dealt with always spoke himself

in the third person. if you expected a change in a manuscript, he would think about it seriously. all his positions were pantomiming his thoughts. nixon would not like that. it was remarkable. he thought of himself as a separate creature altogether and would usenet send in the third person. -- and would use nixon in the third person. even at home, he would say that as if it were a perfectly normal thing to say. evan: can you imagine what would be like for mrs. nixon?

henry kissinger told me a very affecting story. he was asked to go to dinner at the residence with mrs.'s and. as he was walking over, this is the -- as he was walking over nixon asked him to tell mrs. the about some of his foreign-policy compliments. kissinger dutifully starts in and mrs. nixon says, henry, you don't have to. she understood her husband. i actually think the marriage was much closer than we think. we have seen all these photographs of her looking pained and unhappy. i think late in watergate, it was pretty bad. next and even said in his memoirs that he doesn't tell his own wife he is resigning. he tells his secretary to tell

mrs. next. you wonder how close they were in august 1974. but before that, in the early years, there are very touching love letters. she was the prettiest girl. if you look at field old photographs of her, she was gorgeous. she became gone to later but when she was 20 pounds heavier she was a knockout. she helped him a lot in the early years. she stood by him and when he thought about quitting she said you can't quit. it was a good marriage in some ways but i think in the white house. i have to say, the marriage resumed and after he left the white house, when she died, he is just bawling.

he's not just crying, he is convulsed with tears. brian: here's some more from the time he was here for his notes interview. >> what. of your like to enjoy the most -- what period of your like to do enjoy the most? >> i don't like to psychoanalyze myself but let me attempt to answer them subjectively -- answer them objectively. i like all. periods. i went through the depression and it was rough. we think of it as a depression. i can remember when getting a stake was considered to be something that was so unusual that we just thought this is the ultimate as far as food and so forth is concerned. all that has changed.

evan: to the other poor boys and would year -- at whittier college, he probably wasn't that for. he used his shyness to understand outsiders. at his college, there was a cool guys fraternity called the franklin's. nixon started an alternative -- started a fraternity for uncool guys knowing there were more uncool guys then cool guys. this was the beginning of the silent majority. nixon was elected president of this class i getting all the outs to outvote the ins. he did that 30 or 40 years later with the presidency. he knew how to exploit them. brian: how did you approach the

research? evan: i needed to find people that were around and physically close to him. dwight chapin, his body got. -- his body guy. his military aide, speechwriter. there were a lot of people who were kind of in the office with him and who were around him. they are a little defensive around the press and they were a little defensive around me. i'm an east coast establishment. a lot of years have passed and they were pretty generous with me. steve bowl talk to me about how it was like. i think that they wanted to -- yes, nixon was a weird guy. but he was a considerate boss, a thoughtful boss.

i think they wanted to get that side of him across so they talked to me. a lot of his aides -- he was always a good talent scout for young talent. kissinger talk to me. donald rumsfeld was a young aide who worked for nixon. george schultz was a young cabinet secretary. a lot of these names became more famous later but got their start with richard nixon because he had a good eye for talent. someone i wish i had talked to was roger ailes out of fox news. roger ailes was a fairly obscure daytime tv producer when richard nixon discovered him and put him in charge of his media team.

he had an eye for talent. he also has a ton of talent. for all the craziness of watergate. evan:brian: chapin spent a lot of time around nixon and he also went to prison for six months or so. let's listen to dwight chapin from the nixon library. >> it's very late at night, we went and got on the plane. he had one or two of those small bottles of scotch. he was exhausted. the next thing i knew, he was crying.

what brought this about, this emotional uprising, is that he was talking with ray, who i think attracted some stuff for the speech in miami. they were starting to look on his acceptance speech and how that might work. this was the one in 68. he started talking about his mother and dad and his brother and this brother that he lost to tuberculosis. this guy is a human being. . he is not that different from us. evan: but of course, he was different from us. we don't have his ambition, his dreams.

much of nixon tried to wear a mask and the max fell off from time to time. it cried all the time. i have five or six cases of him weeping when his emotions, which were boiling within him, when well up. he was very human. that's one reason why it is such a great story. brian: did you asked why chapin how he feels after he fell on his sword for nixon? evan: when chapin was being fired -- chapin had run done some great -- had run don segreti. chapin was tasked with running segretti, so he had to take the fall for this.

when chapin heard about it, he wept. it was early in watergate, when things were turning sour, and i think chapin just couldn't believe it that after all this loyalty he was being cast loose. but there is no bitterness and chapin. he is realistic about nixon but loyal, and i think that after all these years, despite jail time, devoted to him. brian: did you watch many of those interviews? how many hours do you think resurfaced? evan: years. this is my ninth book and i usually spend three or four years. erwin gelman, the one nixon

scholar who is actually read all of the documents. he was incredibly generous with me. i'm a journalist more than i am a scholar, so i go to scholars and i asked them. my researcher mike hill has helped me over the years. a little bit less on this particular project, but he has been a great help over the years. mike and i were at the library i spent a couple months out of the library listening to tapes and the archivist there helped me. the one thing that scholars, or rather journalists, need to know is that if you want cold into a presidential library, forget it. you need to spend a couple of years reading the secondary

stuff and talking to people before you even darken the door of a presidential library. but then, if you befriend the archivist, they will point you in the right direction. brian: which book that you read did you find the most useful? evan: the diaries are quite useful. those are 40% to maybe half of the actual diaries. the haldeman diaries is great. he is a great observer. haldeman was a smart, and even funny in a driveway. he was a good observer of the president. he was gentle and kind of tender about nixon in a way and he also did make fun of him a little bit. william safire, one of the

speechwriters, observed nixon up close, and was full of psychological insight. i thought that was a particularly perceptive book. very useful. here is the surprise one. juliet said, the daughter, wrote a memoir of her mother. nobody uses the book because they figure it has to be a puff piece because it is his daughter. it is a really smart book about mom, but also about dad. brian: here is an interview we did in pennsylvania where she is talking about the happiest moment in her father's life. >> if i were to choose the one moment in the political years, i think the best is the election of 78 -- the election of 68. he had lost the governorship of california in a humiliating loss

and a lot of people thought he was a loser. with the loser image had to overcome and 68. he entered every primary and it was this great big adventure. that moment in 68 was a joyful moment. you just knew, at that moment, that this was the supreme moment for them to achieve that goal. evan: not that joyful the night of the election. was typically in one room, and the family was in a different floor. they heard that the votes were being held back in chicago. this brings terrible memories. mayor daley allegedly held back

the votes. in 1968, the year that the chicago votes were all coming in on razors edge, this is the years this and her daughters -- mrs. nixon hears this and her daughter skinnier vomiting in the restroom. -- her daughters can hear her vomiting. in the morning, they find out they won, and nixon is happy. he opens up all the windows, and he conducts "victory at sea" alone out the window. no family there. brian: before we more -- 01 mark lippert julie, you say in your book that nixon thought georgetown was out to get him.

you say he was right. evan: today, the georgetown set does not exist. in the 1950's, powerful. a group of cia harvard and the ale alumni, very charming pleased with themselves. mrs. graham was at the center of this world, and joe also. i used to, i came in at the end at newsweek. i used to go to dinner and see them. they said they were out to get him, mrs. helms, cynthia helms wife of the cia director richard helms, said there was no mercy for nixon at these dinner parties. henry kissinger was often the honored guest. kissinger, who could be

shamelessly flattering of nixon in the white house, would go out to dinner with the georgetown set, and make fun, gently, but make fun of his boss. nixon knew this. he knew, he rationalized it. he said, henry needs this. but it hurt him. he would say there goes henry. talking to the georgetown crowd. the georgetown people, and the washington post, out to get nixon. and you know what? they got him. brian: another clip of julie nixon eisenhower. >> was your father unfairly treated by the media? >> there is a great book called "it didn't start with watergate ," which was published in 1976. his thesis is, political

scandals always happen in administrations. there is a laundry list of mistakes and abuses of power that happen in modern presidencies. it is the question of, whether you want to go after the issue and pursue it. i think my father was controversial because of the war. i think he, those who opposed him probably pursued him very hard and it worked. they may not have pursued another candidate or another issue might have come along. certainly, he made mistakes with watergate. brian: the basic point is true. evan: nixon was hardly the first president to wiretap. he was envious of the kennedys and johnson, he thought they were better at early tricks than he was. he was trying to catch up to them.

he wasn't wrong. i wrote a kennedy biography, the kennedy machine was tough. bob eat -- bobby kennedy did more wiretapping than nixon. it wasn't like the presidency was innocent and all of a sudden there came evil nixon. executive power was concentrated, in the 50's and 60's, in the white house. the rules about wiretapping were blurry at best. the effort -- the fbi was happy to be an instrument of the white house and spy on the president's enemies. mix it was not the first guy. -- nixon was not the first guy. the fbi got out of the business for working for the president doing this bugging. hoover said, we will not do it anymore. hoover, he could feel the lawsuits coming on. the warren court was a more liberal era. the roles were about to change.

what does that mean? nixon goes in house. he creates the plumbers. in-house capabilities to spy. unfortunately, the people his aides hired, hunt and the lady -- and liddy, were not that competent. but's reputation was pretty bad. he was one of the chief plumbers. g gordon liddy was a call -- a colorful figure but kind of a screwup. those guys made lots of mistakes. they were not good at what they did. it were not competent at what they did. they got caught and nixon got caught with them. brian: what more interview clip, maybe i have one more click left. let's try one more. he talks about his real friends. >> we had difficult times in

office, as everybody knows. not speaking just of watergate but presiding as president over a war that was divisive and not easy. the. -- the time since then has been, it has it it's competent -- its compensations. when you are down, you discover who your real friends are. i have some great trends out there. i hear from them by mail, some come to see me. when i think of people being for me at a time when most of your friends in the media were against me, which is not unusual, they always have been. it is very reassuring. evan: after he left office in disgrace, he almost died. the nurse was slapping him richard, wake up. richard. he was near death.

to his credit, he came back, he started playing golf with jack brennan. he talked about his friends, he had a few. walter a bloomberg -- ammenberg invited him to his house. but he did not have a lot of friends. mix it was so broke -- nixon was so broke that tricia and ed cox had to help them. i was told that there was literally a question of whether they could pay for their groceries. evan: going back to your comment about tricia and ed giving their father money, that is an anonymous quote. evan: it has to remain that way. the person who told me does no

one to reveal their identity. brian: why? evan: i can't say. it would give it away. i have a single anonymous source. everything else is -- brian: only one? he had a friend named elmer. you have this in your book. you have to set it up a little bit. we have leonard talking about what happened, but how did they get into elmer's house? evan: elmer was a pharmaceutical sky. he was a friend of nick's and was in florida with a fellow lawyer. they are preparing to argue before the supreme court. they are down there, and nixon

is supposed to spend a night in a development in florida. with his antenna nixon realizes the owners of the development of going to use him to promoting. at the last minute, he says come on, leonard, let's go to elmer's house. it is all dark and locked up. nixon says, it's over the wall we go. in their wingtips with their briefcases, they climb over the wall and they spend the night in the pool house. apparently it was like summer camp. they laid awake -- evan: here is leonard -- brian: here is leonard. >> he had to -- rate trouble sleeping. he was an insomniac.

he would talk, maybe have a drink or a sleeping pill like most of us do in times of tension or illness. at any rate, he did quite a bit of talking, free association. i was in the other bed. it was a friend telling about his life and problems. >> what did he talk about? >> he talked about his ambitions and his mother and her love of peace. and the troubles, his brothers. everybody knows that so well. and he made it very clear that he was going to, if he couldn't, he would do anything to enhance his energy and his ability to maintain footing in public life with a view, doing the things he felt he was destined to do. in a world of foreign affairs

bringing about stability and hope for peace in the world. he wasn't kidding around that night. he gradually became more personal, talked about his hopes and aspirations. then he fell asleep and i fell asleep. brian: that was in 75. evan: he lost for governor. people finish -- big he was finished. but he wanted to come back. he said to some people, if you didn't go back into public life he would be mentally dead in two years and physically dead in four. he read a book about a psychiatrist called "the will to live here co the book suggested that people who are destined for greatness have got to be in public life or they are going to die. nixon believed he was destined

and this is a positive thing. we think of him as being a hack. as a young congressman, when everybody else was isolationist, he was an internationalist. he realized the united states has got to be confronting communism, saving europe. he was pro-marshall plan. his constituents thought it was wasting money. nixon went against his constituency because he believed in american power for good to save europe in that case and stand up against communists. he had a grand vision of himself as helping the united states fulfill its destiny as a great power. with nixon front and center. brian: when monica crawley was 21, she worked for him in college. she wrote two books. she wrote down everything he

said when she was around him. here is a story i want you to see and fill in the blanks. >> nick's always claimed he never watch television. of course, he did. he liked to watch the news, he watched sports, he is to watch football and baseball avidly. he never admitted to watching mindless entertainment. i was five minutes late for our meetings at the residence in the afternoon, so he expected me to be late. what day, i was five minutes early. i was walking up the stairs and before i could clear the stairs to the third floor, i heard the television going. then i heard laughter coming out of the television. i realized he was watching something meant to amuse. i was surprised by this. i looked at him, and he had his shoes off, and his feet were in stockings, on the ottoman. he had the remote control in his

hand, and he was laughing. he was enjoying the show and the moment so much. i observed him for a couple moments, because i wanted him to have those few extra minutes when he didn't have to be on and he didn't have to be the serious richard nixon he presented to me most of the time. i enjoyed seeing that. but i cleared my voice, i cleared the top of the stairs and he looked at me and he was horrified that he had been caught in the act of watching television. the dick van dyke show, no less. he tried to shut the tv off with the remote, and put issues -- put his shoes on. he dropped the remote and it was chaotic. he said, well, he was red-faced and said well, you have caught me watching the tube. brian: this is why -- this is when he lived in new jersey after the presidency. he also talk about his television habits in your book. evan: it is a charming story.

i think nixon was half in love with her. you can see why. in an innocent what -- way. he liked having her around. he was sheepish and bashful. he got caught in the white house watching television, "all in the family" he watched. he was a sports fan. he would yell at the tv watching sports. he was a joyous, explosive fan. you think of him when he bowled, ebola alone and with a necktie on. when he was watching again, he could explode. i have a photograph in my book of him and a ballgame, leaning forward in his chair, roaring out something. the inner nixon would pop out sometimes. he was friends with the coach of

the washington redskins, george allen. he once allegedly called a play for the redskins, there is some dispute about how it played out. nixon loved sports. our houston call up arnold palmer -- used to call up arnold palmer. nixon did not let down his guard easily. monica was around him all the time and even she barely saw the kind of relaxed, it was hard for him to unwind. even with his own family. brian: what was his story about running in place 300-400 times? evan: before he gave a speech, he would jog in place to get his wind up. he would have a little bit of wheat germ to get some protein. he was very ascetic in his way. he would have a pineapple ring

with cottage cheese for lunch. he was proud of that. there is a debate about how much he drank. i can't resolve it. he had a low capacity. i think towards the end, even julie in her memoir says both her mother and her father drank more than they should have. i don't think he was a crazy drunk. although i have to say, there is a conversation between kissinger and another man were kissinger casually says they can't put the president of the phone to the prime minister of britain because he was loaded. that is october 1973. nixon is in the throes of watergate, it is getting ugly. i was told that henry kissinger passed cables were presented to nixon, and sometimes he would say, go bomb them.

he would ignore the order. because nixon was not capable of giving the order. i was shocked that i was told that story. i don't know the depth of this. this is late in the game, i don't think it represents his whole presidency. but towards the end, nixon was not terribly functional. brian: an attorney worked at gerald ford and negotiated the pardon with the nixon people, i found this on youtube. i recommend people watch it, it is over an hour. he tells the story about going out there with final negotiations for the pardon. he has gotten the signatures and he left the house and went to his car. then, somebody runs out, and called him back. here is back are telling that story. >> i get all of the imagery

coming back when i tell this story. he was standing behind his desk and he said, before he left, i wanted to give you something. because you have been a gentleman. i said, that is unnecessary, mr. president. he said, no i want to give you something. then, he made a gesture. a gesture, symbolically to say look at this room. look at this office. and he said, i don't have anything anymore. they took it all away. look at this room. before i could respond, he said, but pat found these. he reached in his desk and brought out a small box. i want you to have them.

there aren't any more. she had to get this from my dresser drawer. he gave me a small box which had the presidential cufflinks, the presidential seal and his name on the back. they are usually given at state dinners. it was a very poignant moment, it really was. evan: when we think of him, he has become a cartoon version, a monster. he did some monstrous things. listen to those tapes anti-semitism and all of that. but nixon he wanted to be a better person. late at night, he would take those yellow pads and he would write what he wanted to be. he would seem joyful, inspired

confident and serene. these are adjectives that did not describe him. that is not too he was, but who he wanted to be. brian: did you see the pads? evan: they are preserved in the nixon library. when i started writing i was struck by this. it was such a contrast to the idea of we have of nixon scheming. it was very different. both nixons are true, but you have to see the whole man to understand him. the good with the bad. it adds a kind of poignancy. i think becker saw that. nixon is so awkward he needed things to hand people, like cufflinks. he would get a pen and say give this to your wife or girlfriend. we won't tell.

completely inappropriate, not funny, awkward lines. he was someone uncomfortable around people. he needed props to deal with ordinary people. it is laughable, we can make fun of it, i don't make fun of it. but it is also kind of touching that he is trying that hard to be affable, to be things he is not. inc. of what a struggle it was to be him. brian: where do you put this book on the nine you have written? evan: the most fun. i didn't expect that. he is so fascinating. he is the great american novel. you can't top richard nixon. you can't top his american story, a poor kid who climbs to the very top and overcoming all obstacles, defeated many times then destroys himself. brian: i want to switch and run

some video now. you may or may not have seen this. we will listen to about a minute, then i want you to talk about it. i want the audience to look closely at this person talking. >> eisenhower's well-deserved break equation in europe was made by his extraordinary success in pulling together men of different nations and points of view. therefore, i expected from him at least a greater effort than we have had to pull together our allies in france. the one fact you can't escape is that we have simply got to stay with the non-communists of age and europe -- asia and europe. not just the french, the whole lot of them. i don't think that is always reasonable right, but we are not strong enough to ignore this.

evan: that is my grandfather who ran six times for president. he was not a very good father to my father, but a good grandfather to me because he had more time for me. amazingly, the only time i ever met richard nixon when i was at "newsweek" and nixon came over to me and said, your grandfather was a great man. i said what? i was caught by surprise. he was a good grandfather. typical nixon, he did his homework. he had the guest list, someone told him that my grandfather was norman thomas. it made me feel good. i was flattered that he knew my grandfather was and that he had a view different from him. brian: your father was editor of

kennedy's book "profiles in courage here: and a lot of other books. is it hard to live up to? evan: yes. i am still working on it. brian: your father and grandfather went to princeton. you went to harvard. then you went back to teach at princeton. evan: i taught there for eight years. i have a soft spot for princeton. i am the kind of person nixon would have hated in a lot of ways. i'm an east coast establishment guy. that made me more curious about him, and i was just touched, the one time i met him, that he was able to fight through, he could have been, i was the grandson of a socialist. yet, he made the effort to be

personable with me and be friendly. that gave me a bit of insight into how he became more successful than you would think. he can remember names, i wish i could do that. he studied. he was a great politician. he was bad at small talk, but he will your name, he knew your father and mother. it made him more effective. it was i think a very, he was a very catching figure. i grandfather and father disapproved of richard nixon but i think if they had known him personally, they may have had a different opinion. brian: of all the people you wrote about in your book, if you could write another long treatise about who was the most interesting character? evan: he was surrounded by interesting people. henry kissinger, you can't top him for shakespearean greatness

and tragedy. brian: somebody who was surprising. evan: pat. we think of pat as being a sad figure with the long face. she was a good, loving wife. she stood by him. she is a figure in my book. a poignant figure. i got from julie's memoir, at the top of the stairs at the state dinner, they are dancing below. she is dancing alone, all alone dancing at the top of the stairs. that was a very moving image for me. brian: what is next for you? evan: i am thinking about writing a book about the decision to drop the atom bomb. i'm interested of the idea, and the question, who controls technology? does man control technology or does technology control man? the atom bomb was a good case of technology controlling man. they used it to end a war.

there attempts to let the genie back in the bottle after the bomb was dropped. my characters would be cure alito and -- hirohito and truman and stalin. brian: if there is a show like this 50 years from now and one of your children is talking about their father, what would you think they will be doing? evan: one of my oldest daughters as a writer. the other is a construction manager. who knows? i hope somebody is still writing. i hope the written word lives on because great as tv and film and the internet is, somebody still has to write books. brian: the name of the book is "being nixon: a man divided" and our guest has been evan thomas. thank you.

evan: thank you. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> if you enjoyed this week's interview, here are some other programs you might like. former director of the richard nixon presidential library scott berg on his biography of woodrow wilson and talking about theater roosevelt and cap in her book. you can watch these anytime at c-span.org. on the next "washington journal," the supreme court

ruling on the affordable care act and what this means for the health care law going forward. watching to post about an article on diversity in the 2016 republican field helping republican voters. you can join the conversation on facebook and twitter. washington journal is live on c-span. >> next week, congress is out for the holiday break and american history is prime time, featuring a different topic. monday, the manhattan project. the production of the first nuclear weapon. tuesday, the debate between james baldwin and william buckley about the american dream. wednesday, the highlight of the