congress. then democrat loretta sanchez on u.s. strategy against isis and iraq and syria. then eileen norcross with the results of the report ranking the economies of the 50 states. >> good morning everyone. after 13 hours of debate the south carolina state approved legislation 94-2020 remove the confederate flag from the capital ground. meanwhile washington education policy in this country is being debated. the house last night narrowly approved a rewrite to the no child left behind law. over on the senate side lawmakers are working on their own right of the education law. that debate on c-span two. we'll turn it all of you to get

your thoughts on changes to the nation's education laws. parents 2,027,488,202,748,001 and 202,748,003. you can send us an e-mail or facebook. start dialling in and we'll get to your thoughts and how you would change education policy in this country. but first joining us on the phone this morning is lauren camera, reporter for education week to talk about the debate. let's begin with the house approving legislation narrowly last night to rewrite the no child left behind law. why this debate now? the education law no child left behind expired in 2007.

>> right if did expire some time ago. essentially what you have is people and states operating under a system of the department of education right now. it's been a big battle to get enough votes on either side to get this moving but it seems like congress is getting it

going. >> what motivated lawmakers? what has this administration been doing in the absence of reauthorization or rewrite of no child left behind. what are they doing to motivate the lawmakers? >> it's been a real effort to push higher standards. a loft states have adopted the common core state's standards which has become a contentious issues and been pushing states to get march serious about their future's ovulation system. a loft republicans would possibly agree are good but they don't want that coming from the federal government. >> spho child left behind law unpopular. one poll shows 2012 gallop pole that three in ten americans

thought the law has worsened the quality of education. what has been the trend? >> well, let's see, i mean the adequate yearly progress which is the accountability system forces states to dummy down their stabbed ardz. students hitting a higher bar year after year. so that more students could hit that bar and that was one of the biggest problems with the law. you will hear across the board positive thoughts about no child left behind in its ability to shine a light on some stuff where some students who before 2001 hadn't really been looked at and really gone a long way in being able to close the

achievement gap. host: we want our viewers to tell what whaeupbgz they would make. 218-213, what does this rewrite say about testing? >> this rewrite would keep in place the federal schedules. it would however give a lot of flexibility there in an amend thaplt was adopted last night before the final passage of the bill would allow parents to opt out of the requirements and also exempt schools from requirement that 95% of the students take these tests and that requirement is in place in order to get a good snapshot of student

achievement. but for republicans that was something they wanted to see in there. host: what would the senate do? keep it the same? >> yes, that's correct. there is a lot of misconception that the federal mandates a ton of testing, it doesn't. it there is so much weight put on the accountability for state's accountability system that the states and local governments are requiring more and more testing. so the big picture thinking here is if you role back the current accountability system and let states create ones for themselves that would be lifted.

host: what do these two pieces of legislation say on standards. >> they make it clear that the u.s. department of education and secretary of education cannot mandate and ensent advise and coerce to adopt any kind of standard. the words common state standards are in the legislation and that's important for republicans who are hearing from a lot of their constituent getting frustrate with some of the things that are coming along withstand ardz. host: and teacher unions how do they view common core? >> teacher unions are generally backing of common core. it's hard to be against high

standards standards. their issue, a lot of their issue comes from the ones attached. host: go through the two piece of legislations and major point of contention. >> so the senate bill would require states to evaluate teachers but doesn't necessarily say how to do that and that's something that was vague for lamar alexander. he said multiple times yesterday if you believe that the underpaying of education is high standards you'll be with me on this bill. but we left the state choose

those. >> finally. what about funding levels for education. >> it would be significantly diminished and one of the biggest democrat's rights in addition to decreasing funding is that the bill would also allow title $1 for low income students to follow them to the school of their choice. title one is a lynch pin of this law. it's a $14.5 billion program. that provision would shift critical funding from impoverished disstricts to wealthier ones. that's a big problem for them.

host: lauren cameron, thank you for breaking it down for our viewers. >> no problem. thanks. host: we turn to all of you. what are your thoughts. how would you change education policy in this country. pat, a teacher from new york. good morning. caller: good morning. how are you? hakem: doing well. caller: one change i would make i would improve the quality of education programs education programs that universities. you need to make them more selective and improve the quality of the program that improve the quality of the

input. much like we see in another country throughout the world make it like medical school and law school. make it incredibly difficult it and you'll see the outcomes improve. host: did you hear what they did in the house last night? what stands out to you? caller: the thing that stands out the most for me not surprisingly the union stand behind the common core. it it does increase stabbed ardz in most most states.

caller: the problem is i oppose any type of -- i mean i think it would lead to radicals, radicalization of of our school system. they'll organize their own school and we might end up with teenagers being -- once you go down this road of individuals -- individual schools reporting to whatever a person wants, host: willy, oppose to vouchers.

what do you think? caller: well, good morning to c-span and those listening around the world. i'm a military instructor military intelligence and one of the things we often found in the military involvement throughout any chain or training was this session which students set their own thing and gather information. and the reality of that is we take a yes or no look pack and think what happened when we said the expansion of the internet or silicon valley and you'll take a one week class for $5,000 and all you had to do was pass some tests at some point and say you were certified.

guess what? you were certified that you knew stuff, but when you got into the world you had no experience with the equipment. host: what's the solution then? caller: here's the solution, greta. we all learn differently. we have to understand when you've been in a group of individuals together you have to do a personality test to determine how they learn best. are they a person who learns best in the morning or afternoon. no student should be made to sit in 6-8 hours of instruction which they have shown the average attention span is about 45 minutes. so when you break that down is, you understand who's in the morning and then you take and those who can be more left brain

one would say, you go, this is where you sit in class in the morning. host: ken in miami. what changes would you make to education policy? >> i think the federal government really has to stay out of it. they screw up everything they touch t has to be focused on the local level. in the name of high standards and teacher evaluation it sucks money away from schools in the inner areas and no children left behind doesn't work because what happens is when you try to make everybody happy and keep the standards exactly the same, the more promising students suffer and they get pulled down by the

slower students where the accommodations are all made to accommodate the slower students. host: you mean when you have the testing that goes along with them, they teach down instead of up. caller: they teach down instead of up. like in florida you have the f-cat which is controversial and they cut down a lot of that where teachers are 0 he they spend so much tile on how to pass a test pu they don't actually teach the content. host: what do you make of what the house did last night? the house and the senate bills to keep in intact this testing. but standards now are going to be in the hands of the state. and the worry from democrats you'll have all these different standards and that standards in

order to hide poor test results the standards will be lower in some states and higher in other states and that leads to inequality in this country. caller: a lot of the state governors are right wing republicans and they perpetrate the same thing on the federal side, more vouchers and higher standards. but the result is it sucks money away from the system. leak you said they teach down where the promising students are left behind. this is such a focus on bilingual education in miami they attempt to teach math and science so it's a real problem

down here. host: look at the "washington post" of yesterday's house bill that was approved.

they understand the unique needs of their students far better than any bureaucrat ever will in washington ever will. the department of education has

sent so many mixed sing signals. this is why i'm a strong supporter of hr five. i commend them for putting forward legislation that ensures that students and schools are put first. the department of education has become far too overreaching in defining accountability. host: freshman republican on the floor yesterday saying why she supports the house legislation that passed last night. not one democrat voted for the piece of legislation. 27 republicans across the aisle to vote against it as well.

but it did pass by three votes 218-215. matt fuller wrote this -- so passed by five votes there exthey were able to put it over the top. matt fuller with that tweet. this is what democrats had to say about the legislation. here is democratic congressman of texas and his argument about why he argued against it. >> in a few weeks are bright faced young children who put on their backpacks and head off to school. as their number increases this bill cuts the purchasing power available to our schools to meet those growing needs.

and most importantly republicans would encourage the states to divert aid from the schools and use federal dollars to replace what the states are already spending on education. not only does the bill short change our schools and our students it also eliminates dedicated funding for programs like stem, science, technology and education and math education. schools across the country, we need not only accountability but funding. this bill should be rejected. host: democrat of texas there on the floor arguing against the legislation that passed in the house. the senate is working on their own version of a rewrite of the no child left behind law.

so we're returning to get to your thoughts 0 on what changes you would make. good morning and welcome to the conversation. >> yes no. they had two different superintendents one for the blacks and one for whites. teachers were able to teach, and reteach. traditional teacher which lasted 200 years had been ten out of the classroom. there are people now who are administrators now are not what tpoez on in the classroom pause they get out early. there are too many managers in the school system. there's too much who knows what and who do not know what, students have rights and teachers do not have rights.

and send the kids back to the classroom. we need -- host: heard you there. harrisburg kentucky, what changes would you make? >> first i'd like to address the problems in the present school system. the problems of the teachers, states and parents. you have a very diverse group of students come into any situation. in these days we have all the more people with autism disabilities and then theyou have

families who are just core that come in. every child is on s.s. i.for some reason or another and given no instruction at home -- host: our connection with you is not that great. maybe you can call back on a better line. little difficult to hear you there. anthony in ohio. what changes would you make? caller: these are the change i would make and i wish they were implemented 5 to 10 years ago before they broke all the school stems across america. one i'll put aoupb tpoplz on every child to erase the peer pressure because poverty is very shameful. if child have a uniform you

don't know how much they're lacking financial shreu. two, i would put cameras in every classroom. it's very inexpensive. three, i make sure this is security at the school. it has to be a safe haven for children. when it's time for children to go home and come to school because a lot of bullying takes place and intimidation takes place and fourthly, i would make sure that they have computers at every desk. if they implement those four things especially with the cameras it would skerecure all the education deals. host: hi, jerry. caller: hello. host: you're on the air. caller: i'm a former teacher. there is one big thing that can

be done and that is get the federal government out of the schools. they have no business being in the schools. if you look back 50 years ago before the department of head indication was formed we had a good education system. host: what if this are states where the poor or minority children are not being -- not receiving a quality education -- the same quality education they would receive in another state? caller: that's up to the states. we have individual states. you actually have made it worse. even the states that are bad were better that they are now. host: hi, phaoeub michael go ahead with your thoughts. >> i would hrf to say you're my

favorite host on the show. myself and myself four children went to khrepbl on savings and loan and myself and the kids and both sides of the grandparents and i think with a few bad apples ruin the whole thing and the government stepped in there and they took over this education and come out with is this very high like $60,000 and takes them

forever just to get on their feet. i'm just saying that the government needs to step out of this money and stuff and get back to where the folks -- host: we'll keep getting your thoughts on how you would change education policy. the house is debating a -- approved a rewrite of the no child left behind law and the senate is working on its own version. you can follow that debate on c-span two this week. the baltimore sun reporting that the mayor has fired the police commissioner saying his presence had become a distraction and

then you have this -- that now goes to the republican governor nikki haley. she has praorbed for this and the senate approving the same legislation. we covered this debate on the state senate side and state house side. if you go to c-span.org. many of you heard the computer

glitches. what happened at the new york stock exchange. it freezes pig boards for hours. it turned out to be a non-event and then also we told you about what's going on in china and their stocks. this is from the "wall street journal" this morning. the government has moved to try to tame the stock market but it's failing and then the financial times their front page says this, that china is how banning big share sales in its draft pick effort to try to study the market there. a six month curve on stakes that are 5%. host: "new york times" this morning --

and then also below that story is this one about medicare. many of you familiar with this debate that took place after the affordable care act passed. medicare plans to pay trz for counseling on end of life. so that in the paper this morning and also this from the washington times this morning about president obama's trip to

kenya. president obama to be greeted during his visit. he has a problem in kenya. it will confront many of the challenges of his presidency back home from terrorism to economic competition and gay rights. and bill cosby. victims groups are now pushing the president to revoke bill cosbies medal of freedom that was rewarded to him pie the bush administration in 2002.

host: some of the news in the papers about education. we'll go to steve next. hi, steve. good morning to you. how would you change education law? caller: what i would do is mandate that school be a full day. so all expectations of learning happen in the classroom. so therefore you wouldn't have the disparity about the amount of help that the child gets and goes a little ways in separating the haves from the have notes. host: how would a full day do that? caller: when my child gets home from school at 3 o'clock, if he needs help with his homework he asks his mother and me for help. when the child gets home from 3 o'clock they have both parents working two tops or single head of household or even a worse

circumstance and no help it's not fair and not even playing grounds for my son versus the child who doesn't get the same kind of help that my son gets. if we have school every day from the morning until 5:06 o'clock with the expectation that children are not expected to go home and it all happens during the day then at least it's some -- some attempt is made to even the playing ground for all kids of all backgrounds. caller: i say the proper use of the english language is the basis, the very base thing he can do to teach the children every subject they need to know. because english is not being taken seriously.

we had this discussion before. it's a science with rules and rules have got to be taught to the children. what's happening is whatever you think it is, johnny. the teachers this have generation are not fully equipped themselves to teach properly. i have to say this, the past tense plead is not pleaded. i have to say i know that everybody in america has seen it and heard it. he pleaded guilty. wrong. this is how you use it. i pleaded with him and pleaded with him to plead guilty. he finally pled guilty.

caller: the object of education is to improve the mind and being able to remember, just to remember. we have not even discussed the teaching of memory which was done normally by the religious groups from the greeks to the romans to the jews and so on and so forth. we haven't looked at that subject. everything you want to teach them becomes easy if they want to learn it and that's our problem. because these kids all want to learn. they all want to do wonderful things. when they get pwred they're disrupt ty. pu what you attack the memory grand and you show them how creative your mind can be are the rest is history. host: front pain of the

"washington post" this morning as a story about education secretary.

on alison in new jersey what are your thoughts? caller: my thoughts on education students don't need on standardized tests. schools and teachers need the money and the funding so they can continue doing their job as a teacher. you have to teach. i completely agree with the man from new york. students learn by creating things and not by taking tests. host: there is a reaction on twitter --

and then -- in my 13 years i was satisfied that mine were fair but many are not. tiffany as a parent, what are your thoughts on education policy? caller: i was state i feel like they should incorporate more of the arts and music in these schools. a lot of times we focus on english and math and science but in child development new teachers that are coming in professors often teach us we have to incorporate the whole child. i believe that's lifting in the

education system today. >> clay in missouri, a teacher. incorporate the whole child. i believe that's lifting in the education system today. >> clay in missouri, a teacher. hi clay. what change would you make? caller: i'm a science teacher and the primary concern is the difference between what we're trying to to each and what the students are learning to learn. i had too many students tell mae that a d is good enough. on the mandated testing, you know that that never shows in their record. i had a student that took 120 tests and took him 20 second because i'll mark all b's because it doesn't matter to me. i want an experiment where the student gets to learn and if it

doesn't work right then you talk about it. the gentleman who backed talked earlier about what about the children, that's not the school's responsibility. and the school cannot and should not be teaching them all the things that the students are ever going to learn. i guess the big problem in a nutshell is we've got too many students today that are mandated to go to school and no responsibility. and the school cannot and should not be teaching desire to even be there 50 years ago if you didn't want to go to school you didn't go to skol and and there's the big difference.

host: caller: i'll sorry. those standards measure exactly what? do those standards measure anything at all? i realize they put them up there

and they say we tested our students, but have you really tested what the student learns or have you just -- most of those are trick questions and it's all about whether you realize they put them up there and they say we tested our students cannd the different prayer in the question and not whether or not you can add 2.2. jerry wharbs's your position? caller: oeupl a tkpepl straighter looking at the community and we're lacking back. i'm a former member of the board and everybody has filtered out, the disrupters and all that kind of stuff and what we get is this but if we go through the education system and when the department way created we had separate but but equal. i'm going to say something right now that may not be politically

correct. but when we had everybody separated in their own school stems, everybody within those stems that are separated they felt equal to each other because they were equal to each other. the main know this is to get the department of education out of the system. a minor criticism. y'all make it a big deal of staying on subject but yet all the hosts will along and reach in a bunch of all in all, you do a wonderful job. >> thank you jerry and the reason for that is we want you to know -- there's other issues that washington is reading about and talking about so we're treug to let you know what information

is reading the policymakers you know what information is reading the policymakers and the lawmakers what their reading when they make up and it's not an endorse of the story, but i want you to let you know as we continue conversations on different topics. sue in qunicy massachusetts, hi sue. caller: originally they were founded to help equalize funding and opportunities for students who were from poor communities and seems like that rile really what i think the rule should be of the government. they're micromanaging everything and coming up with all these charter schools. what's happening is that. the children in the poor communities are ending with no

choices. i have a niece who is a teacher in the columbus school system, i feel that a lot of the problem lies with getting the parents more involved. i don't think there is more parental involvement in the schools. and, yes, i think the governmentment -- federal tkpwroftment should stay out of it and go back to the states, but you know also a lot of kids

have the opportunity from my niece's perspective she's worked in both school system -- she worked in columbus school where there was a lot of poverty and she said poverty breads poverty. she only had nine kids show up for class and that's the pare epbts problem. host: we'll take a short break. we continue talking and sphed with the representative phil roe of tennessee. well talk about the debate in the house and legislation they approved and later we'll talk about u.s. strategy against isis with representative laura sanchez -- loretta sanchez democrat of california. first, here's the headline out of south carolina.

they are going to take down the confederate flag after nearly hours of debate. listen to a little bit of the debate on the floor. many of the representatives came to speech to speak. >> the same reasons it's right to do it today and for the sake of all in our state don't lose this moment. that's what our friend would be telling us. that's what he would be tell all of us. do not lose this moment. i remember one thing he said, and he said this before and i was quoted by our president and i thought it was a wonderful statement. he said, you know, across the south we have a deep appreciation of history.

we haven't always had a deep appreciation for each other's history. i think that speaks volumes about where we are right now. sometimes we don't have an appreciation for our own history and i hear all this talk about about we have to honor those that fought and died in the civil war and we should and do much as a matter of fact we have monument and i dare say on the state lawn of every courthouse around our state the most popl informant place and ed helocation is the confederate soldiers. don't tell me moving the flag fails to honor our soldiers because we're doing that. let me tell you what dishonors our soldiers and what is a dishonor to their memory and

service. it is to fly that flag. i want everybody to represent, i'm talk to all my colorado legs we must keep it in there. oh high how i wish robert e. lee, general lee, i wish he was here tonight. he would tell you all it is an abomination for his flag to fly as a matter of fact his flag was if you recall to untpurl and fly it violates the terms of surrender. host: we want to welcome back to the table congressman phil roe

here to talk about the house passing the rewrites of the no child left behind law. tell us why you support the hraepbl legislation. host: we need to go back to the concept of what we started it 13 years ago. the reason was that we had a subset of students who weren't achieving as well as they should have and others who were and so there was a days i want it personally thank you, all the teachers across this country for what you do every day. you're one of the most important parts of our country and i want to go back to my experience.

i had never attended a private school. i all 23 years of it, the parent didn't the i would get through school. i shortened a little bit but i want to thank the teachers who gave me the public school system. i was a guy who couldn't go to a praoeu the school and the first one i went to was a two room county school and i had two things in that school that were remarkable and those were two great teachers. i want to thank all the teachers across the countriment you have a hard guy. in a way we made it harder with no child left behind and had a chance to change in spheupbgz and i think what had happened at least what i'm hearing from my teacher in the first congressional district they're

tired. essentially the students the school year is over and kids are incredibly tremendouses -- stressed. we're evaluating how good the teachers are by the test results and we can go through there there was a system called a. y.p. let's give you one example that teaches it as . i go to her class and read from time to time. so she had a student in there. way you reading. second grade class and one student was walking off. i said how is he doing and she said he'll back with me next year. i said why, well he's missed 60 days of school much one of the first things i asked the pair oepbts has he been sick? his mother won't oup in the

morning. so he's missed 60 days of school. let me get this right, the mother won't get up to get him out the front door. he misses 60 days of school. he doesn't make adequate yearly progress you're a bad teach. we had to change that and the new bill we passed we got rid of a by's and taoepers out there take a child who maybe limited english and bring them to grade level in one year. can you not do and certainly a noble goal. the other noble tkpoel was to get every child reading at one pun% and math 100%. let me give you the numbers. that was the go. if you didn't reach that goal were you a failing school. 26% of high school seniors are

proficient in math and 38 are -- host: it didn't reverse the trends. what about the legislation that was passed in the house. it still includes testing. caller: it does but it pushes it down. i think the best decisions are made at the state and local level. our school board -- and we had a great interaction with our school board and we act like -- i know you're reading in the "washington post", the concept is that washington knows best. we're not interested in puig successful in our local 60 boards pu we are. we know if you drop out of school, you have a very limited chance of getting a decent job. we know also you'll earn 250 shall $300 less in your live time than somebody with just a

high skl educationeducation. i was very motivated to make sure that we had as high tkprad weighings rates host: amendment was approved last night to allowed parents to opt out. >> i wish we had that in school. i'm afraid my parents would say, no buddy, you're taking the at the time. teaches are are so stressed about these tests. most parents aren't. we put the pair exhibit back in charge and the not the federal government. host: there is some worry if you have this opt out provision that administrators will ask the children who are not performing well who opt out and then that

skews the at the timing results. >> we'll tpaoebd out fairly soon. i trust our teachers more than that. is there a teacher somewhere that would do that? probably. most teaches are are mote people either. i'm in school all the time and i never understood why education is a partisan seubt. make no sense. host: what about standards? what happens to standards like common core? >> what had happened before when we did reauthorize no child left behind. if do you that you have to accept these common core standards.

and people don't -- at least most of the teachers i met will make anything work. you'll be successful and motivated to teach students. i think this made it harder for them and we allowed the states and local systems to opt out and we take the power of the secretary away and with host: and finally funding before we get to calls. are democrats dispointed? >> this is a great book that everybody needs. i don't get a royalty from this pu thissen -- it's a fantastic book. he's from philadelphia and what he said he was trying to find a movie set for a movie he was

doing with mark wahlberg and he went to two schools four miles you a pay part. one of them was incredibly successful. and the other one almost halftalk about being for mouse apart. he started really looking into education. and i was trying to encourage you to read this book and it is just not money. you look in washington dc, they have some of the highest per capita per student in the country. yet the outcomes are not that good. that is one of the reasons here in washington we wanted to allow schools -- to allow parents to opt out of bad schools. here is an amazing statistic. about 99,000 schools in america 2000 of those schools -- listen to me carefully -- 2000 of those schools cruise over 50% of the dropouts in america. it is not just money. host: let's get to calls.

joseph first in new orleans, a democrat. caller: good morning. guest: good morning, joe. caller: i am wondering why the republicans spent so much time being against whatever the president proposes. and one was during his administration, it has been common core. when the concept of common core, to my understanding, was a republican idea. and you always hear republicans in whatever talk about getting the government out of education. well, from my understanding, it was the state who developed what is to be taught in their state along with educators and parents. to develop the curriculum for their children. my understanding is the common core was they have a common core of education for all students

throughout the united states of america. but as soon as obama's name was attached to that idea, then all of a sudden, it was wrong. host: i will jump in at that point. it was starting to become called obama core. guest: look, i don't know again, why would you would have republican and democrat in education. it is about educating kids and what is the best way to do it. joe is correct, that the common core was formed by the governors. there is some truth to what she said. the fact that you do that and it is not working i think is the reason we look -- and we are getting, i mean, an incredible amount of pushback from the educators that are having to execute this. i have gone into classrooms and

listen to multiple teachers, multiple school directors. look, they will make whatever works. if they don't like it, that is the role, they will make it work. just like we in medicine have to work with medicare. it doesn't mean we have to like them and it doesn't mean that there can't be something better. it is not just president obama. that has, at least in my view -- host: lawrence is next in pennsylvania, a republican. caller: i just wanted to say, congressman, that it is not reading that counts. it doesn't matter how many books a student reads. it is the quality of the reading. i refer back to the lady from wisconsin who is absolutely right. it is language that we don't pay any attention to. you could talk about your education and becoming a medical doctor, but it is not the teachers, it is the curriculum.

our paying any attention to our language? we don't. are we paying any attention to the great american literature that we have? we don't. we talk about generalities. we talk about all kinds of things. statistics. we talk about -- when the fact of the matter is, all this business that you are passing is going to have enormous economic benefits for the textbook companies, for educational testing services. that is what it is really about. host: congressman, your response. guest: i think if you are talking about a classical education, which i think you are look, reading is one of the things i think is one of the most fundamental things you can learn to do. if you can't read, you really can't do much of anything else in the society. i don't care how many cell phones or have or computers you have, you have to be able to learn and read with understanding. the education i came up with encouraged me to read and my

parents did. in the state of tennessee, we have something called innovation library. this was started by part in -- p arton where every child that is born, and i'm an obstetrician so i saw this firsthand, a child every month until they get to kindergarten gets a burke -- book sent to the home. i can tell you one of the things i did with my grandchildren and parents need to do is they need to sit down and read to their children. and you will learn and children will then become to love books. there is not a day that goes by that i'm not reading a book. i have been a lifelong learner and that is what you have to do. i think what you are saying is this great literature that is out there that i'm sure you have read and i have read, we need to encourage everyone to read. i encourage -- agree with you on

that. host: virginia, jim, and independent. -- an independent. caller: yes, i would say that learning does begin at the home. and we quit our jobs because they are our children. i work around the school system here and i see so many parents rushing their kids to the corner or rushing them in the school and getting them there so they can get off to work. i think that is totally wrong. i stayed home with them, was able to help them out, get them a proper breakfast. when i hear people saying that we need to start school this way or that way so i can get off to work, it drive me off the wall -- drives me off the wall. also, it should be left to the state. if tennessee says two plus two equals five, they should -- i would give them 110 people and that is it. but when tennessee sends them a test that says two plus two equals five, they should notify

them that something is not right. it is up to you to spend that money. but behind greta, that mining -- building that i can see right now, that money we pour into washington dc -- kids get lost in the bureaucracy. host: all right, jim. guest: jim, it's a secure and i would have a great discussion -- it sounds like you and i would have a great discussion together. education starts at home. you are absolutely right. it is one of the reasons -- another reason that people have pulled their children out of schools. there is a big home school movement in the country now, and for that for a reason. and parents don't like the curriculum, they don't like the way the students are being tested and don't like the way they are being taught. i admire you for what you have done.

a lot of parents financially cannot afford to do that. they have to rush off to work to pay the bills. but i admire you for what you are doing. host: democrats though, have argued that it is about a common ability. take a look at what was said on the debate yesterday. >> [video clip] >> there is not much more to say, but i want to talk about one of its biggest shortcomings. namely, getting accountability right. we can all agree that no child left behind did not get accountability right. but the answer is to move forward and improve upon and make accountability work, not to take a step backward, which is what this bill does by having a misguided set of principles defining performance, targets, and accountability. if this bill were to become law, states would not be required to set performance targets based on student growth proficiency or graduation rates. the bill doesn't define low performing schools, nor does it establish any parameters for

intervention when we know a school isn't working. one of the most compelling things that we can do here in washington is equipped local superintendents with the toolbox they need -- -- equip local superintendents with the toolbox they need and this bill fails to do that. host: congressman, let me ask -- he wrote recently this, that this legislation pending in the house and the senate simply put no longer would states and districts be required to take action when students aren't learning at grade level. students and their families will not be assured that action will be taken on the behalf when student achievement information shows schools to be chronically low performing all when growing achievement gaps further disadvantage poor students and students of color. guest: let me just point out they are not doing all that great now. if you keep doing what you are doing, you are going to keep getting the same results. 26% of seniors are proficient in

math. i would call that underachieving. 38% of seniors are proficient in reading. and that is to assume -- [laughter] -- that is the arrogance of washington. that is to assume that the local people don't care. they do. i am a lot more motivated to go care about what is going on in my congressional district then george miller is in california. and i respect george a lot. i have worked with him for six years. he cochairs as a ranking member on the committee that i chair. so i know them well and i respect both of them. i think they both mean well, it is just that we decide here in washington that we know what is best for our local school systems. i think our local people and our state people do. let me tell you about tennessee. our state has said, we are going to make community college free. if you graduate from school or view having graduated and you want to go back, we have 26

technical centers -- farming, welding -- you can go to those for free in tennessee. why? because we have a program -- 55% of our folks that get out of school has a certificate because we know it is going to require those skills. 98% of the jobs if you are high school drop out, you cannot qualify for in this country. that is very limiting to what you can do. that tells me that our state is very interested and involved. i think other states are too. we are competing around the world now. we also competing with other states. businesses move in our areas so we can help the economy where we live. we are very motivated to the best education system. i'm a lot more motivated than washington. host: hampton, virginia carlson, a democrat. caller: good morning and thank

you for the opportunity to express my views. i'm a retired veteran of the united states air force, korea. and what i believe is that -- that there is a role for the federal government to play in our education system. the reasoning is because if we have a national agenda, then we can -- we can get what we need and help to support the country. very easily if we have standards. and if the federal government is involved with our student growth because that enhances patriotism. where is the patriotism being taught to our youth? host: congressman? guest: first of all, thank you for the service -- your service. i proudly serve on the veterans affairs committee. let me go back to curriculum and standards and so forth.

when i attended the university of tennessee college of medicine, we knew that i was going to have to pass a national board test. and at that college -- no one came in and told them what curriculum. every students knows that if they are going to go to college across the country that your students are going to have to score in ac t-test or an sat test. -- act test or an sat test. there are people who teach the tests. out much rather have them teach to learn. we know we are going to have to have those tests that compare how you do in michigan or california or whatever. and right now, it is hard to tell because many states don't require all of their students to take that test as we do in tennessee. so every student takes up there. california, other states, they don't all take it. it is hard to compare these things. national tests are already there. host: pending legislation in the

house that would make president obama's community college free plan a real a-day -- a reality. if that comes to the floor it is something that happens in tennessee, would you be favor and what the president would want to do? this is for low income americans. guest: what i would do is, first of all, we have a $500 billion deficit right now. i think we should let tennessee decide see what it is doing and see if our outcomes are good. i think they will. i think you'll pay tremendous dividends for us. and we are not here to discuss higher education. but one of the great concerns i have is the higher education data. i was able to go to college and medical school in seven years. my father was a factory worker and my mother was a bank teller. and i was able to graduate with no debt. that just doesn't happen anymore. education that is a huge thing. but to answer the question, no i think we should let tennessee see what it is. we need to learn how to pay for

things appear, which we haven't done. tennessee is not a rich state. guess what? we made that a priority in our state. we said, this is very important for our citizens. i think we should see how it works in tennessee. host: massachusetts, dan, a republican. caller: how are you doing? i have a couple of questions. the first question would be -- common core gets funded then those school systems that topped out, obviously, do they or do they not get funding for just having, you know, being quite of the school system or do have to have common core to be funded? and then second of all, as a parent of three children, i mean, i was heavily involved in school. my wife was heavily involved in school. we teach discipline at home, we teach that all elders -- and i

hate to use that word because i'm in my 60's -- that you have to have respect for people. we are interracial. we find sometimes that is difficult because we get calls from the school's, you know, saying someone's idea son may be a should let your hair grow longer, if you will. it is like, well, we find that offensive. and i said, you do? my kids were taught differently and now you're putting something in their mind. so i think education -- when i was going to school, if i didn't have the intelligence to be with the other kids, i was put in another classroom with other kids and i felt good about myself. because i could compete with those kids, where was -- when i was in the other class and i found out i'm not with them intellectually, not that they are better mean -- better than

me, they are just smarter than me. that is all there is to it. and i turned out to be very -- a good person. with a degree in culinary because i went to a technical school. i have worked all over the world. so you don't have to go to college to be a banker or any of those type things. technical schools -- i have many friends that work in the plumbing industry and the mechanic industry and all that. that are very well-off. so, i think we get a little bit delusional sometimes i have to have that higher education. host: dan is a republican. guest: i'll start with question number two first. you are 100% correct. one of -- most of the things we learned begin at home. and the school should amplify those teachings that you have obviously received at home and that you did offer. you are absolutely right about the technical schools.

look, we are in the height of the recession, 2009, 2009. the graduates of our technical schools in tennessee, 90% of them got jobs during the was part of that recession. virtually now, 100% get jobs. whether it is, as you said plugging -- plumbing electrical, sheetrock, whatever it may be. not everybody needs to go to college. i cannot agree with you more. to see where failure if you don't do that is wrong. by the way, if you have been in a factory lately, it is amazing how technical or how skilled those workers have to be and how productive they are in those factories with robotics and computers and all of this. i bet you cook a mean dinner too. common core. what happened with common core? the secretary of education was given the power since we didn't reauthorize no child left behind.

the secretary was able to say to tennessee, ok, here is $500 million of race to the top money. if you want this money, you will do certain things. this bill that was just past does not allow the secretary to do that. and we took 69 programs -- i couldn't even list them all -- that the department of education has and put them into one block grant. it is about two point $3 billion per year that can be block granted out to the states and local and let them do what they want to. if they think they need more low income kids, they can put the money there. if they think they need to put it in some other area, they can. but the local system business either jump through a bunch of bureaucratic hoops. host: in new york, a democrat. caller: hi, good morning. just two questions here. one is common core. are you hearing me? host: we are hearing you. go ahead.

is it noel? caller: yes. when students come to new york -- i teach high school here -- and i find they are learning different contents. to me, common core would be very good because they would have the same content knowledge. that is my first question. the second one, the gentleman talks about charter schools. what we find with charter schools -- they take students but they have disciplinary problems -- if they have disciplinary problems, they kick them out and they come back to public schools. and what we find out is that a lot of money is funneled from the public school into charter schools, and less support is given to teachers in the public schools that have students with a lot of discipline problems. and teachers need help there. so what they need to do is to

support -- supports teachers in public schools because we have the good, the bad, and the indifferent. and they never seem to be talking about that. host: we will have a congressman respond. guest: noel is right. she has to take everyone at comes in the door. thank goodness they allowed me and taught me. thank you, noel, for what you do every day. you do make a good point and it is a point that is in favor of the common core, which is if you move to a different state theoretically want to be at about the same place, or if you move schools. and we have one school in my district, from -- a low income school from kate through fourth. 80% of the kids who start in k don't end up in forth.

they moved. thing in negative -- the negative part is we feel it is washington restricted education. that is the pushback back i get. teaching for the test. by the way, not all charter schools are successful. you are absolutely right. and i would encourage you, what again, to read this book. we know what works in the country. again, we need to target where the issues are. 2000 of our schools, remember, of the 99,000 schools in america, provide over 50% of all dropouts. for instance if you are not greater any review the ninth grade, you have a 50% chance of action graduating from high school. really abysmal. host: by the way, the author of this book was on c-span's "booktv," and discussed the book. go to [indistinct chatter] -- go to c-span.org to find out what he said.

linda in louisiana, a republican. caller: good morning. thanks for having me. i have a lot to say, but i will try to make it as quick as possible. i taught school in the past and i have substituted for several years. the difference between a long time ago from the time i was in school and schools today -- the number one problem across this country, there is no discipline in the home. it has become an almost epidemic problem. what i would do is -- if you are bad in a regular public school how about schools for people with discipline problems? the problem i saw is one that apple can spoil about six other kids in the class. before you know it, you are not teaching and you are just taking care and babysitting a bunch of children. and curriculum is getting thrown out the window. so, also, the technical schools

what they ought to do is this goes wicked have problems, they are probably the ones who should be in the technical schools. getting half the class learning the things they need to learn. and learn a skill so they can be set for when they get out in the real world. also, the common core, i'm totally against it. i have seen a lot of things in there that absolutely blows my mind. the math for one is absolutely one of the worst things i have ever seen. host: congressman? guest: linda, first of all, it is great to talk to some of the economic state from the south. i appreciate what you said. discipline is important. it starts at home. the teachers can't do -- they can't do everything, and that is what we are asking the teachers to do. to be the parents, the spiritual adviser, all of these things and educate our children.

in our community at home, we do have alternative schools. and many school systems do where children who are not a grade level or a not producing or have discipline problems, usually their parents or enter a goal, whoever is raising this child there is an alternative school and we have had great success with that. the thing that you cannot do for the child is they cannot continue to be not successful. if they are, they are going to drop out. they have to have some successes along the way. as the caller for massachusetts just said, he felt a successful in the class he was in and he has had a successful life. i agree with you that some children ought to be in the technical route. learn to basic skills in math and reading. then if you are good at other things with your hands, you should do that. we should not force everybody towards a college career. thank you for the years you spent teaching. host: richmond, virginia, barber

is watching us there. in independent -- an independent caller. caller: yes, good morning. i'm an educator and i have taught in both public and independent schools. it seems that the legislature spent a lot of time discussing curriculum discussing teacher accountability, student accountability. but the one thing that is not addressed and you are hearing it -- every study shows that the largest impact on a child is their home. and i would like to know about parental responsibility. host: sorry, barbara. guest: sorry, we didn't mean to cut you off. barber, you are right. look, if i were a judge -- and i told you about this child you that missed 60 days of school -- when -- at least school will

provide them breakfast and lunch. my parents were not about to let me lie around or whatever. they were going to make sure i was successful. every day when i got home, i was asked, what did you learn at school today? the problem is there is a huge divide in -- in literally the problem with education, almost like it is with health care. it is poverty. if you look at a child in very low income homes, i the time they get to kindergarten, they have heard 30 million less words than a child in a more affluent setting. if you take schools that have less than 10% poverty in this country and compare the positive scores, 13-year-olds around the world, we are behind liechtenstein or something. you take schools that have less than 10% poverty -- norway has less than 4% -- we have the highest test scores in the

world. we need to focus on these places of intense poverty where it may be 70% 80% of the schools are free and reduced lunch. so we do have a huge problem. i don't know how, barber, you make somebody a better parent. for me, it is the greatest honor that i've had in my life to be a parent. i think we need to say how privileged and blessed you are to have a child. and it is your responsibility to make sure that child is successful. host: larry in tennessee, a democrat. caller: hello. [indiscernible] -- state's states are supposed to monitor, be the driving force on education.

i would like to ask him to go back and address with the other tennessee -- what the other democratic senator was talking about, as far as putting dollars towards corporate testing and stuff like that. address what he was saying instead of turning it into a political -- host: we understand, larry. guest: larry, first of all, i spent seven summers at their reservation rates near highway 107. i know it well. i know we live. it is a beautiful part of the state. i grew up not too far from there. i'm glad you called in. first of all, larry, i wasn't sure on the second. host: i think you is referring to senator lamarr and goat vendor -- alexander or sunday.

guest: i think on the state issue -- host: he was wondering where tennessee ranks. guest: ok. tennessee used to be in the 40's. we would always say, thank goodness for mississippi and arkansas because they would usually be below tennessee. our state legislature, i would teachers, and our parents in tennessee, in the last testing we had the largest gains in america. we moved up 15 spots. and if you look at some of the real challenges in our state and there are challenges. i lived in memphis for 10 years when i was in medical school. and i taught at northside high school there for three years. they have a different set of challenges so our state has done very well. as a matter of fact, the secretary of education points out tennessee's successes frequently. host: and our producer has found

the education -- the education department for tennessee, their website. you can go to the website and find the tcap results at a glance. you can see the highlights there. tennessee's education department's website. mary in virginia, an independent. you are next. caller: thank you so much for taking my call. i think we ran into trouble when we hit -- back in the 1970's. i was catholic school educated in the 1950's. i'm 64. i was in the class from kindergarten through the eighth grade. these were not wealthy kids. about half the class were first-generation immigrants with parent to spoke no english or broken english. everyone of us came out literate. and came out able to do math.

i remember fanatics. i remember fat, rat, cad, bat. -- cat bat. that's being taught that way. we need to go back and introduce these. a lot of the catholic nuns are 95, they are still alive, and find out what they did because i can only remember two kids who were wealthy in my class. this -- i went with what my irish father called -- [indiscernible] he wanted me to go to another school where i was more challenge, yet they were completely literate by the eighth grade. please, this was saint catherine's in new york. it is closed now. host: we have to run, so i'll have the congressman -- guest: that is awesome, mary.

god bless my 10th grade english teacher. i still to this day cannot and a sentence with a preposition. [laughter] i hear what you are saying. and you did get a good basic education. and i think that is what we long for. education is different now because technology is different. i will tell you, the thing that has changed this world -- i have watched the amount of information that is available to people today. it is unbelievable compared to 20 years ago. i can literally take my ipad or my phone now and between here and that capitol dome right over there learned what i need to do to go to my next meeting. there is that much information and it happens so fast. she is correct. what we had before, i think she was saying, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. we put people on the moon. we created that computer. when i was in china a few years ago and korea with their

education systems -- what they looked that was how innovative they were. if we don't want to become a system that is just memorizing and this is the way you have to go, we need to go outside the wet lines and the innovative and learn because that is how we developed all these phenomenal things we have done in this country. host: congressman, i don't know if you have a -- had a chance to learn about this. a story that broke last night. in a rapid and dramatic policy shift, confederate like imagery could be allowed to remain displayed on graves on federal land in some circumstances under a republican sponsored amendment that will be voted on the house today. it is going to be part of the interior environment spending bill. it looks like that vote could happen today. how do you plan to vote to go guest: i have not seen it -- how do you plan to vote? guest: i have not seen it yet so i don't really know. if you are from the south my

grandfather was in the confederate army. certainly, i'm not going to dishonor my -- people still want to honor their heritage and their culture. not to hit or anything. i think that would probably be allowed, but i haven't seen the bill yet. host: the move came just before hours after the house adopted a trio of democratic amendments that would constrict confederates like imagery and federal land. guest: 11:00, i was already asleep. host: we will see how it plays out. congressman, thank you for your time. guest: thank you for having me on. host: we are going to switch gears coming up and talk about the strategy of isis. and later, a look at economic conditions in your state. eileen norcross will talk about the findings of a new report.

the confederate flag, as many of you know, the state house in south carolina voted to approve taking on the confederate flag from state grounds last night after 13 hours of debate. 1:00 in the morning, they voted 94-20 to do so. here is a little bit of yesterday's debate and republican representative denny when talking about the issue. [video clip] >> i cannot believe that we do not have the heart in this body -- to do something meaningful, such as take a symbol of hate off these grounds on friday! if any of you vote to amend, you are ensuring that this flag will fly beyond friday. and for the widow of senator pin

ckney and his two young daughters, that would be adding insult to injury! and i will not be a part of it! and for all of these reasons, i will not vote to amend this bill today. we may visit this another session, another year. but if we amend this bill, we are telling the people of charleston, we don't care. about you. we do not care that someone used the symbol of hate to slay eight innocent people, who were worshiping for god. i'm sorry. i have heard enough. about heritage. i have a heritage. i am a lifelong south carolinians. i'm a descendent of jefferson davis, ok? but that does not matter.

it is not about jenny or in. it is about the people of south carolina who have demanded that the symbol of hate, off of the state house grounds. and i will tell you i do know and i have an good authority that the world is watching this debate. and there is an economic development prospect in dorchester county that is in jeopardy because we refuse to act. we need to follow the example of the senate. remove this flag and do it today! because this issue is not getting any better with age. >> "washington journal" continues. host: back at our table this morning, congresswoman loretta sanchez. welcome, thank you for being here again. guest: thank you, good morning. host: i want to begin with what

happened yesterday. we saw these computer glitches with the new york stock exchange, the wall street journal's website, and then united airlines. your reaction to them. guest: well, certainly a little disconcerting when you have three major icons of the american economy, in particular, get attacked at once or not work at the same time. i believe we will have to ask someone questions and really delve into it. i know that the administration and others have said that they are completely disconnected. and we hope that that would be the case. but remember, every day, we get attacked from cyber attacks in everything. in business, our defense computers. so we really need to understand that this may be just the beginning of many issues

layering on top of each other. this is a form of war at this point towards us. i'm not saying yesterday was that case. we have to really take a look at it and ensure that that was not the case. host: i want to show our viewers and have you respond to the fbi director. he was on capitol hill testifying and was asked by lawmakers about these computer questions. [video clip] >> we are not big believers in quincy dance, either. we have been involved in all three -- in contact with all three companies to understand what is going on and we do not see any indication of a cyber breach was ever attacked. i think the wall street journal piece is connected to people flooding the website in response to the new york stock exchange to find out what is going on. but it looks again, you don't love coincidences, but it does not appear there was a cyber intrusion involved. guest: in fact, we have seen that before when amazon gets too busy or somebody's website gets

way too busy. you put out a really good deal out there and all of a sudden he goes down. i could imagine that is probably what happened with that ball street site. the wall street journal site. but we definitely need to ensure that that is the case. host: and you believe that the cyberattacks that we are seeing are acts of war. what does the law say about cyberattacks as acts of war? what -- what should the commander in chief be doing about this? guest: the commander in chief in this particular case, our president, is exley doing quite a bit about -- actually doing quite a bit about drilling down. remember, there are two separate entities in the u.s. government that deals with cyberattacks. the first is a military side of our defenses and the second is homeland security, which is to protect everything else other than defense. and it happens that i am one of those persons who sits on both

subcommittees for both of those committees. so, we are doing a lot more than most people think. and yet, i have to say, and people understand that -- that it is always after the fact. then we say, oh, we need to strengthen this firewall, we need to do this, etc. but we are always reacting to what happened before. which is difficult to say, but we must -- we really are trying to turn -- and the president is tied to do this, trying to turn it into a possibly could happen rather than what has happened in the past. because these are insurgent attacks. they get to choose anytime anyplace, how they are going to attack us. remember, there are actually countries who -- they have places whose sole job is, maybe 10,000 people every day go into some shop, and their sole job is

to china infiltrate -- is to try and infiltrate our defense strategies, our defense blueprints of a next they knew fighting plane or what have you. it is a constant. i would tell people, it is a constant barrage of highly paid people who try to infiltrate our system. host: is the united states prepared for a larger type a cyber attack that could really cripple the economy? guest: i will tell you that i feel very confident to begin with, for example, the financial institutions. we really work with them. there is another issue also. it is not like the government controls a lot -- 90% of the infrastructure that is important to the united states, the banking infrastructure, is not controlled by the federal government.

but we have worked hand-in-hand with the banks to ensure that there is redundancy, that there is robustness in our system so that hopefully you don't get to your atm one day and no money comes out for any of us. we are working very hard with industries. host: what is it -- guest: which one? the probably have is some of the senators have their own ideas and of course, each in their own party. in the house, we have passed several pieces -- i don't believe it is really strong enough. the reality is a gets watered down. and the president has honestly put many resources toward cyber security. another what, they have realized they have to move on given that the lawmakers are taking their sweet time. host: speaking of technology and the fight against isis,

headlines in the papers recently that isis is using encrypted codes in order to carry out their strategy against iraq, syria, etc. what are your thoughts about the u.s. strategy against isis right now? guest: well, honestly, i believe that the u.s. strategy -- look we all agree on the same thing. and i would say that from my perspective, isis ,isil whatever you want to call these people are a direct threat now and an international threat. so they are a problem for the united states and for the well-being of americans. so, we have to understand that we must put the resources towards making sure they don't have safe havens. so, i believe that most of my colleagues in the congress and most people here in washington

fully know that is the case. how do we get to that point i'd where we differ? clearly, you know, you have to look at just what has happened in the last few weeks to understand our strategy is not working. the strategy we have is not working. and so, what would i do? well, we have a strategy of a couple things. we had the state department tried to work with the law, in particular, for example. there are three different groups -- look, this hasn't happened. it is not great when the government that is in control of iraq is using iranian soldiers to go after isis and to go after others. that is a problem. and certainly gives confidence to the other two groups there and iraq. clearly, we are trying to do the

political, diplomatic efforts. but we have been doing this for decades with them and it is not working. military -- certainly, we are trying to deny them a safe haven. we have tried to do that. intelligence -- we don't have as much actual intelligence on the got to be as effective in our military campaign. economic -- we are trying to cut off the financial arm to isis. and the treasury is doing that. informational -- the department of state and our intelligence agencies and others, trying to fight this whole web-based -- recruitment efforts. incredibly important for us to do as a nation. this is a major problem for us. the recruitment of the junk people who cannot only hurt us by going to syria and iraq and yemen in these types, but who

could create problems for us here, as we saw maybe in tunisia and other places towards individuals. and of course, homeland security. ensuring that people aren't getting into here that could do this. what do i think it takes to be successful? first and foremost, the united states have to decide who we really want to win this battle. the current situation we find ourselves is not working. we have to devote more resources . i do not say that we need to put ground troops in, but there are other ways in which we can turn the tide. we have to be much more effective. host: let's get to calls. adam is up first in california, a democrat up early. go ahead. caller: hi, how are you. guest: you live in a beautiful place, adam. caller: thank you.

i want to talk about how increasing the international affairs budget would be much decrease the safety for these terrorist groups and for isis, specifically, and al qaeda. we saw these dismal conditions and world war i -- or after world war i -- with hitler coming to power. we sought in afghanistan where al qaeda was able to operate freely and the taliban was able to take power there. and most recently in somalia. so, increasing the international affairs budget wouldn't cause us to put in troops. it would be a lot cheaper. and it would decrease the safe havens for these terrorist groups. guest: adam, you are very farsighted and what we need to do. let's think about what has happened. so, when we have an msdn a country, we call it a mission. it used to be we have an abbasid

or ants than we have economic development and peace corps, all towards -- an an embassy in a country, then we have economic development and peace corps. if the quality of life is ok in another country, you are going to be happy to be in that country. so mission is all about -- but there are places we can impact that we do. this is what has happened in the 19 years i have been in congress. our missions in a particular country -- in some cases have been cut in all these other economic and educational and putting in institutions for democracy and human rights and these types of things that missions used to do.

now, even people in other countries, when they view our embassies, they view it as a military compound most of the time, rather than as a mission to help in integrating people into a true life situation. i would agree with adam. it costs a lot less to do that. unfortunately, those types of programs have either stayed for a stagnant or have been cut. especially when we use some of the sequestration issues, we tend to favor military projects and we tend to decrease what is going on in the foreign relations aspect. host: maryland, sarah an independent. you are on the air. go ahead. sarah, good morning. caller: i just wanted to ask you something in regards to isis

trying to get the united states involved in another ground were over there. i am worried about military excursions because, to me, it doesn't seem like it does anywhere. i don't think there is necessarily a military solution. but one of the things is, you know, you are in this committee. do you gas discuss unintended consequences -- guys discuss unintended consequences? when qadhafi was killed and hunted down by the west and the united states, i remember, clearly, that qadhafi stated that if you kill me, the floodgates will open up and others people from the middle east and africa will come to europe. and that is exactly what has happened. the other thing is, i find that president bush has set the middle east on fire with his administration because all of these conflicts today are a direct result of involvement and

china to take out leaders -- trying to take out leaders without thinking about the long-term and result -- end result in that. host: congresswoman. guest: first of all, thank you for your comment in your question. you are looking at someone who voted to go into the iraq war. why? because i could see the future. and we were not prepared for once we brought down saddam, which we did fairly quickly what were we going to do, what timeline did we have, what kind of government is going to sit there? and we have been, quite honestly, very ineffective. anybody can look at what is going on in iraq and understand we have not been successful there. so the answer is, yes, there are quite a few of us who -- who try to do that. the problem was, of course back

when we're with bush and the republican congress at the time, that they had the majority of the votes and certainly even about half of my democratic colleagues voted to go into that incursion. there were some of us who stood strong and said that it was the aftermath that we see. and it was not well thought out. he we sit, 12 and 13 years later, having had major problems with it. do we do it enough? because the question was, do we all think about it. the answer is, no. we don't do that enough. we don't have the time in a space where we can really say, really guys, let's think about what this looks like. if it is right on the forefront if it is right on our plate, if we have to deal with a vote, we try, most of us, to get as much information as possible about what the aftermath looks like. but certainly, there are a lot

of unforeseen and unintended and not discussed issues that happen after the fact. and then we spent all the time tried to figure out how we solve those. and in some cases, we have really ended up with a quagmire. host: alexandria, virginia. a democrat. good morning to you. you are on the air. caller: -- [indiscernible] host: your connection is very bad. hopefully you can call back. david in arizona, a republican. caller: good morning. guest: good morning. caller: good morning, ms. sanchez. guest: good morning, david. caller: i follow the house and the senate and things that go on. i am asked military. i trained for nine weeks and then you take advanced infantry training.

for eight weeks and we go off and fight a war. we continue to put money into the middle east, train these people for 10 years the job their weapons, isis gets it, and they kill our men and women. why do we keep putting good money after bad? host: sorry, david, thought you are finished. guest: if you look back at the history of my dealing in particular, whether it was dempsey, this whole issue of what we call the iraqification of the army, let's train them let's build that military -- if you look back at the hundreds of thousands supposedly that we trained of the last 10 years, a lot of them were phantom. they didn't exist. someone was pulling a paycheck someplace.

they paid everything en efecti vo with money. or the recruitment of 60-year-olds into the military. really? that is going to constitute a good military? we saw in iraq be dropping -- the dropping of weapons. the tough things that had to be done whenever done there. and when i had dempsey and others, this whole issue of 20% kurds in the north 20% -- i'm talking about population iraq -- and 60% shia in the south and putting in what turned out to be basically a shia type leader -- and then when you look at their military, the fact that proportionally speaking, moneys and weapons should have gone to the kurds the sunnis, this

year, but only went one direction. or the fact that the military, when it was being constituted was always heavily cited into the 60%. and the kurds really didn't feel like they had a provision there or a place there. neither did the sunnis. and it created an instability. it created a lack of confidence to deal effectively with each other. and so we never were able to unite in iraq because the leadership that we buttressed there was only one sided. host: given the fight to now, should the united states armed directly to kurds? guest: yes. host: you would vote for that? guest: i would vote yes. let's go to the current. the kurds have proven to be the only effective fighting force really there in iraq. and we have to go with those

that we can win with. and, you know, they have told me for years -- i have been going and talking to their leadership. we were with you when you came in against saddam, we were with you, we have been with you, we have been fighting off isis and you know, we have been doing it with rudimentary weapons because nothing has come from baghdad to us. they said, if it is going to be 20% of the weapons, send it to us. but there are those regional conflicts. the sunnis are afraid, the shia are afraid, but right now, the only true fighting force that is standing its ground and winning by the kurds. my answer would be and has been, yes. let's work with the body of people who actually can win these battles. host: kerry in arlington,

virginia. caller: good morning. ms. sanchez, thank you very much for the work you have been doing . as you say, you have been doing it for years. i am trained. i am very document oriented. things aren't getting better but we have to go back and look where it started. a lot of the internet issues came from military programs that were developed are but and tarp. -- darpa. there has been a proliferation of releases of the domain names which allows anybody in the world to be an entity or a force. a military program was started in 1998 along with ikahn --

along with all the other issues that are going on. these are american started programs. it is important to look back at us. it is what i do when i look at papers. i do my best to go to ground zero and i spent a lot of time around congress. i don't see the research that needs to be done being done. i see new people in old seats at the witness tables. and i hear people running off of talking points. this is a very serious issue. greta wodele brawner: ok. congresswoman. eileen norcross: yes. the answer is that within the military, we have special areas that deal with -- gps, the internet, several other issues. it is called basic research. when we do basic research,

whether it is in the military or the national institute for science or nih although the real cutting edge -- think about gps and what it turned into. who would imagine it. we do the basic research and we put our money there. we have a policy that we flip it out into the commercial world because we believe that it can find applications for basic research which gives us things like yahoo! and google and websites. we have much less control once it goes into commercialization than if we hold it ourselves. the journalist is correct. we, the government, invest in basic research. should be -- we have held the internet only to the defense department. i think as americans when we see

the positives and what the internet has done for us that the answer would be well of course not. but are we also to police the internet? and it's really not the defense department's job once it goes into a commercial phase to police the internet. so the question is who? and do we? and is that a privacy issue? what do we do with the internet? every time we try to say something about the internet, let's not expand it, let's charge people for high speeds, let's do taxation -- anything that has to do with the internet, people are always like, oh my god, this is a free thing. it allows people to move freely. it allows us to talk to our grandchildren for free in australia or whatever. don't touch it.

that is really the grassroots effort toward lawmakers. don't touch our internet. unfortunately with the good comes the bad. grandparents who want to talk to their grandchildren in australia for free also means that terrorists can link up and do bad things to us. we have programs where we are trying to figure out what they are doing. is it enough? obviously not. greta wodele brawner: we're talking with congresswoman loretta sanchez. she sits on the armed services committee. we are talking about isis strategy. djoh in nebraska. good morning. caller: these things you are talking to about the last couple of colors about iran and iraq --

how about you doing the same thing. get off your seat, go across the street, and get in your chambers and start doing the tough things. all you do is talk about all these different things and never solve any problems. greta wodele brawner: john, give us an example. caller: oh yeah, give us an example. sure. i'm trying to explain myself and you are going to jump in there with give me an example. i want her to give us an example of how she can go to work and start at 8:00 in the morning and work until 5:00. and don't give me these excuses that you are in committee. go to work like all democrats i know have to go to work every day. greta wodele brawner: all right. congresswoman? eileen norcross:loretta sanchez: i usually start at 6:00 a.m. and i'm usually done at 10:00 or 11:00 or sometimes midnight. if you ask anybody who knows me, i work six and a half to seven days a week.

so your whole premise that we are somehow just sitting around and talking i don't believe is correct. there are a lot of things we are working on to try to get solved. if you ask anyone around the chamber and in the senate, they will tell you i work in a very bipartisan manner on issues that are very important. and i can point to very specific things. iron dome was a project that mike turner and i really pushed on when others didn't want to see it happen. it was a defensive mechanism that is working well and which will probably be in other countries because of the threats. with respect to putin and the baltics and our nato allies, trying to ensure that we are aligned correctly in order to move forward. this iran nuclear deal that the administration is in charge of

with respect to negotiations but which we in the congress have a very -- should have a limited role in, but we have expanded our role because we believe it is so important to the american people. and working with our european allies to ensure that sanctions are in place. and should there be a deal that is acceptable, how do we ensure that sanctions don't come off right away. how do we ensure that the bodies of other parliaments of other allies work with us. these things just don't happen. there has to be a lot of discussion dealmaking, pushing in order to make these things happen. greta wodele brawner: on the iran deal. no time limit on nuclear talks. what if there is no deal but the administration just keeps the

talks open? loretta sanchez: i believe the congress will not stand for that. greta wodele brawner: how would congress change it? loretta sanchez: well, congress can just say, we are putting back up all sanctions. it would require that our european allies be with us in that. there has been some lessening of the sanctions on that and that is a worry. the more money that iran has while we are just limping along trying to make a deal -- if it were me, the more i would be moving to try to get to a better bargaining point. more towards having a nuclear weapon that i can actually use of versus not. greta wodele brawner: iran has

been striking deals with other countries, russia, etc.. loretta sanchez: that is a problem. and back to our last caller, what are you doing? we can put in all the sanctions we want, but if the russians or the chinese aren't with us, they can just say they are getting the deals and we are not. it is very important these diplomatic efforts where we aligned together. we actually have the players that make a difference at the table. that in itself is a pretty big deal. last time i looked. greta wodele brawner: steve in michigan, a republican. caller: good morning. on the iron dome you just mentioned. i would like to remind you that it was the artsisraelis, my folks, the jewish people, that

developed that for you. they took the rocket shots the developed an excellent way to use it. shows you how to use it. you may have given them money and hardware, but we are the ones that are responsible for that iron dome. point number two. if you do your work, and you do it -- how can i say to us americans, why do you let those book smart nerds that call themselves scientists waste billions of our tax dollars to have rockets blown up in their face trying to get supplies to the international space station? and it took the russians to get there because you in america could not keep mr. kelly who is a brother of gabby giffords wife, you could not keep him alive. his life was dependent upon vladimir putin.

we cannot get them back. we have no way to get them back from the space station and we had no way to keep them alive with supplies. it is the russians that are doing it. greta wodele brawner: ok david. loretta sanchez: well with respect to iron dome, it is a defensive system. yes it was researched and developed by israel but we actually put the money to manufacture it. we are manufacturing it now in the united states. it has been a joint effort. as so many other programs on the cutting edge with respect to missile defense have been. not only does it benefit israel, it will benefit the european continent and our allies in asia. it is an integral part of what

we do with respect to missile defense. it takes all of us together. so yes, of course it was researched in israel, but it was actually paid for by the united states. with respect to -- i guess upset with respect to nasa and trying to get supplies to the space station? we have cut back our whole idea of what we do with respect to space exploration. that is one of the cutbacks that has happened in the federal budget. we have decided a while back before i even came to the congress that we would do that in conjunction. but it was one of those relationship building issues with respect to the russians if we could do something up there

with respect to research versus weaponize nation of spacation of space that we would build a working relationship with the russians because we need them. when we confront issues like iran getting a nuclear weapon or chemical weapons in syria. we cannot ignore the chinese the russians -- do i think that they come to the table on each and every subject willing to work with us or without another agenda? no. we work with them where we can how we can. it was decided a while back that we would work in conjunction with them with respect to the space station. greta wodele brawner: usa today has this story. it has been reported that an iso-leader inis leader has been

killed in a drone strike. diego is on the phone. caller: do you think the government would think it is hypocritical that you are trying to limit their recruitments while the u.s. recruits its own military? and do you support the part of the ndaa that would extend the drug war money to other countries at the time when we realize that the drug war is not working in our country and mexico is using our money to kill its own people? loretta sanchez: with respect to the drug war, you are looking at somebody who has had a different attitude on how we handle that, especially within our own borders. i think it's much more complicated than most people believe. when innocent lives are taken

as we have seen in some cases where entire populations have been under the thumb of narco trafficants, it's a problem for us. with respect to isis and recruitment, the united states is a recognized country. isis is not. it is not recognized by its neighbors, by the united states, by russia, we do have a military and we recruit for the military. and oh, by the way, that military is under civilian control. it is under our commander in chief is a civilian. president obama is not a military man. he is a civilian. we have a doctrine in the unit states that our military will be under the control of civilians. isis does not have that.

it is neither recognized as a state and it certainly doesn't have the doctrine of its army under control of its people. so i think you are trying to compare apples and oranges. greta wodele brawner: this story in the new york times says, after killing a deported felon san francisco mayor is now mulling -- has strong criticism from both parties. the mayor said he would speak to federal officials about how the city could participate in a new obama administration deportation program after a mexican felon who had been deported five times with charged with murdering a woman. loretta sanchez: it's always interesting how one case always gets the news when the reality is that that is not the full breadth of what is going on with respect to people who are without documents.

greta wodele brawner: and sanctuary cities. loretta sanchez: we all know that most people who are here without the right documents are not here to hurt us and they are not here to be criminals. they are here to make a better life for themselves and their children. we know that. my parents are immigrants who came to this country with nothing. they had seven children. they educated them all here. they educated themselves. and by the way, they are the only parents ever in the history of the united states to send two daughters to the united states congress. we bleed red white and blue. so is this the case with most people that come here? because we are still the people of hope in the world. so what have we done? it has always been the policy that we deport criminals. that has been the number one

issue with respect to deportation. so when we are as a country spending our resources pulling a mother off of her two children both of whom are either born here or one has a green card or the mom has no paperwork and we as a country say, she's an illegal here, let's deport her. that's the worst thing we could be doing to those american children. they need their mom. and we know this. anyone who is about family values understands this. we have been spending our time trying to eliminate that rather than saying, let's get the money and go after the criminals. now i believe that president obama has been in maybe six years, he finally shifted away from that to criminals criminals

criminals these are the people we have to get. i have not had a chance to read the full brief on this gentleman in san francisco who took the life of this beautiful young woman and i mean beautiful in all aspects from what i hear -- that he had been deported several times and had returned several times. so these are the type of people we need to say, how do we use our limited resources to ensure that these people don't get back into our country. greta wodele brawner: but you do not want to see a policy shift in san francisco. you want to see remain a sanctuary city. loretta sanchez: san francisco is going to have to decide that for themselves. there are several sanctuary cities in california, but it has always been even my local law enforcement, that the criminals are the ones we pick up and put behind bars and support.

but then it comes deport. but then we send them back into countries that don't have the resources to know what to do with these criminals. if the country you are coming from is in a better place and you believe you have a better future there, you are probably going to stay there. these people are coming back to return to their same disgusting methods. greta wodele brawner: we are coming up on a major anniversary of the vietnam war. you put out a press release saying you were against the white house hosting a vietnam leader which happened on tuesday at the white house. why? loretta sanchez: he is the head of a political party. by the way, only one party system in vietnam. think about that as americans. there's only the communist party. it was the leader of the commonest party -- communist

party. what is the world leader doing hosting someone who is not a per liter at the white house -- world leader at the white house? he has no power. why are we hosting a communist party leader at the white house? that to me is a problem. especially when it is a one party system and they are terrible on religious rights and human rights and labor rights and environmental issues. there is no freedom of the press or freedom of assembly. if you are a church leader, you are allowed to have sunday mass.

as the priest inside that church that is the only time my congregation can meet. anything else is an illegal assembly. i'm not allowed to pass out anything written. i can't pass out something that says, there will be a pancake breakfast on thursday. nothing. limitation on speech, the press the press can only be state sanctioned. it is a terrible country with respect to human rights. and yet the president would host a party leader? not even an official from the country? i think we need to push back and say, every time we have lessened constraints on you, we eliminated the embargo will lead you into the world trade organization. now we are looking at this

transpacific partnership agreement. every time we have done economic positives for your country, you have told us you are going to be better about human rights. and every time, you have become worse. i have a little problem with respect to what's going on there. greta wodele brawner: this weekend marks the 50th anniversary of the vietnam war. congresswoman loretta sanchez, thank you for your time this morning. loretta sanchez: my pleasure. greta wodele brawner: next, we are going to talk with eileen norcross of george mason's mercatus center to talk about the fiscal health of your states. we will find out which ones are doing the best and which ones are doing the worst right after this rate. -- break. ♪ >> conservative pollster and

author of the selfie vote on the trends and technology, the millennial generation, and how the political parties are vying for this increasingly crucial voting bloc. >> political advertising became very heavily focused on ads. the technology has changed so that now if you walk into a room not just of 20 rolls but of 60-year-olds, what are they looking at? their phones. so for folks who want to reach the next generation or into the future of political advertising things like candy crush or whatever the latest game is -- there is a was something new popping up. finding ways to get your message in front of people. where they are paying attention is really important. >> sunday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span's q&a.

this week on first lady lady's influence and image, we learn about lucretia garfield and mary arthur mcelroy. lucretia garfield was an educated woman and a believer in women's rights. when her husband president james garfield was assassinated, she returned to ohio and ensured his legacy by making their home into an early version of a presidential library. chester arthur, a widower, becomes president and his sister, mary arthur mcelroy fills the role of first lady and establishes white house social etiquette used by future first lady's for decades. lucretia garfield and mary arthur mcelroy this sunday night at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span's original series, first ladies: influence and image. from martha washington to michelle obama. sundays at 8:00 p.m. eastern on american history tv on c-span3.

washington journal continues. greta wodele brawner: we are back. here to talk about the fiscal health of the states in this country is eileen norcross. she is state and local policy project erector at george mason university's mercatus center out with a new report looking at the ranking of which states are doing the best and worst. let's talk about what categories you looked at to determine who is doing the best and worst. eileen norcross: we ranked them based on their own financial reports and we looked at short and long-term. the short term is does the state have enough cash to pay short-term bills? budgetary solvency is looking at revenues matching expenses. that there is a measure of liabilities and assets. service-level solvency look set the ratio of taxes to total state personal income.

lastly i look at trust fund solvency which is breaking down pensions and health care obligations and debts relative to personal income. greta wodele brawner: why do those characteristics matter? eileen norcross: the report looks at the short and long-term. the short term is looking at, can you keep the government functioning? the long run is what are the risks going forward in terms of debt? are you paying attention to those and fundamental they were as a building into a larger problem? greta wodele brawner: let's take a look at the top five states doing the best great you have alaska, north dakota, south dakota, nebraska, and florida. they are all faring the best right now. why? eileen norcross: alaska is an outlier. they get a lot of their revenue from oil. when oil is doing well, so are

alaska's revenues. north dakota also an oil-rich state. the dakotas and nebraska are though debt states. -- low debt states. florida is prudently managed in terms of debt as well. greta wodele brawner: for florida to be in the top five after the financial crisis and the housing market that really dragged down that state -- for them to be in the top five, what have they done? eileen norcross: these metrics are limited. it can give you the full picture. they have recovered a bit from the recession. revenues have rebounded. their debt is not as strong. you are seeing that getting picked up in these metrics. they have a strong cash position. they were able to budget in that year. we only looked at fiscal year 2013. they have recovered a bit. greta wodele brawner: up at the bottom five. illinois, new jersey massachusetts, connecticut, new york. why? what is happening in these states? eileen norcross: they all suffer

from some of the same problems. they have large unfunded pension liabilities. health benefits for public workers unfunded. some of those states issued debt on top of debt to cover some of that. this has been building up for a while. they had a week cash position -- weak cash position. greta wodele brawner: let's talk about new jersey. a lot of governors are running for president in 2016. chris christie is from new jersey. what is he going to have to explain to potential voters about why his state is in the bottom five? eileen norcross: only looking at 2013 i can say this has been building for years.

those bills are coming due and new jersey is having to confront that today. some of the pension reform measures they undertook they're struggling to get them implemented. i don't know if that's going to be enough. he has inherited a problem that has been building for decades. same thing in illinois and connecticut. greta wodele brawner: we're talking about the fiscal health of states in this country. we want to know what the economic conditions are like in your state. eastern central part of the country, dial in at (202) 748-8000. mountain pacific time, (202) 748-8001. we want to get your thoughts on what it is like in your state. what are the issues, what are jobs like, what is the government doing. we will get your comments in a minute. is the recession that we saw

back in 2008 still having an impact on some of these states? eileen norcross: you're seeing the effects of having to make that up over time. it didn't help in the area of longtime liabilities where some states elected to reduce ongoing payments. it is a ripple effect. it continues into the future, though revenues have started to rebound. those long-term debts -- the recession didn't do that any favor. greta wodele brawner: what about commitments that these states make, medicaid spending has expanded under the aca what kind of impact is that having? eileen norcross: medicaid spending is growing, not as rapidly as some might project, but it is putting pressure on budgets. you're seeing that in these financial reports. also or they had large debts

bond issues they are still having to deal with. you also have unemployment insurance that is starting to rebound a bit. the stimulus money is gone now for the most part. i think the states have better footing than a few years ago. greta wodele brawner: there is talk of in washington about how we need to invest in our country. roads, highways, bridges are in major disrepair. states trying to attract companies to come to their state and have jobs for their constituents are looking for the investment from the federal government. does that have an impact? eileen norcross: infrastructure spending certainly puts pressure. those gas taxes are not bringing the revenues that they need to make those kinds of repairs. that is an area of growing stress and concern. how are we going to fund that.

let's rethink how we are funding transportation on the state and local level. because you cannot rely on the gas tax. greta wodele brawner: how are states competing with each other? what sort of proposals do they have that the state of texas for example will put out there so that a company leaves oklahoma and comes to texas instead? eileen norcross: this study did not look at tax structure. we see states that have tax climates that are broad taste and low rate -- broad based and flow rate. -- low rate. this study really looked at the fiscal side in a narrow way. greta wodele brawner: let's get to a call. jim in oklahoma. what is it like an oklahoma?

caller: it's fairly steady. fairly good. it would be a lot better if we covered the main problem. -- got rid of the main problem. the five autumn states have had a history of being run by liberals. and too much federal government. that is the problem. the problem is we are all text way too much. it should be controlled by local government on the taxation on usage. we should be able to keep 100% of what we earn. the president talks about taxing the rich more. if this is a free country and everyone is equal, everyone should be taxed the same regardless of what you make. taking more money from people that put themselves out there and made more is theft. it's like eating at a bus stop and having everyone deciding to take 50% of what's in your wallet. greta wodele brawner: ok.

you have a thoughts on that? eileen norcross: again this study focused on the debt and not the tax side. these things are not built overnight. it is taking on a lot of debt and not paying for those debts. greta wodele brawner: i want to show the viewers the overall map of fiscal solvency. california in the yellow. what's going on there? eileen norcross: it has very large pension liabilities. they hada a weak cash position. they have a sizable amount of debt. they're not the worst because it is a relative ranking. they also have health care obligations. if you look at liability per capita you have general obligation debt, pension and health care obligations. in that year, they had a weak position.

revenues about matched expenses. that is why they rank yellow. it is a relative ranking. they have to fall somewhere. greta wodele brawner: north carolina wayne, you are on the air. caller: appear in the blue ridge mountains, you can basically say there was some momentum until about 12 months ago. at least there was some. but it has died out. people appear are just treading water and they are just hanging on. it seems like there is a social net and it is easier for about half the people appear in the mountains -- up here in the mountains to not work so they can keep their income low enough for the government to support and provide them enough substance sincistence to survive.

the good 50% of the people here are not self-assured enough in the economy to gamble with going out and getting a full-time job and prospering. they had lost that dream appear. -- up here. eileen norcross: north carolina has a somewhat mixed performance. in some dimensions they do pretty well. i did not do an analysis of the economy, so i don't know if i can comment specifically on your question. greta wodele brawner: christopher in florida. what is going on in your state? caller: i actually deal with this on a day-to-day basis. i believe florida is going to lead the nation and health care reform and i think we have a great opportunity here and i think we will do that.

you can ask your expert. we have great potential when it comes to private and public hospitals everywhere. my second comment is i took part in a stem cell research study at the university of florida were they put stem cells inside majorette from -- greta wodele brawner: i believe that there. -- i am going to leave that there. caller: you can look at it in terms of the stimulus and unions. look at it in terms of stable conservative governor as opposed to most governors who go to jail in illinois. you need to do studies about centralized government. give this money out for political reasons. and it does the grassroots no good at all. they pay off unions and buy votes.

eventually they by generations and eventually democracy is gone because every thing has been socialized. greta wodele brawner: what is going on in indiana? do you like governor pence? caller: absolutely. he was overwhelmed by this thing that was horrible for the local economy in indianapolis. and before him we had one of the better governors ever. it is stable. but getting compared to illinois. ohio had its problems, too. whenever you have these governors for these parties that try to buy votes with goodies look at the economic situations. greta wodele brawner: ok. jean is in indiana talking about illinois. governor casing is thinking kasich is jumping in later this month. eileen norcross: indiana has a

really low level of debt relative to assets. they are strong there. illinois by contrast has 1.4 times liability to assets. that gets into that pension story. illinois dealing with a massive unfunded pension liability. they have been accumulating debt for years. indiana is prudently managed fiscally. again, i focused on the fiscal side. you mentioned ohio. that is an interesting story. they do well on some dimensions. they have a strong position in the short run but in the long run -- when you look at that pension bill, ohio's liability is massive. there are number 48 in trust fund solvency.

that is 56% of total state income. you might be doing well today but if you don't think about the bills that come due in the future you end up in a downward spiral. greta wodele brawner: let's talk about wisconsin. another governor who is going to be announcing on monday, scott walker, that he will seek the presidential nomination the republicans. how is wisconsin fairing? eileen norcross: number 28 in the overall ratings. a mixed picture. they are pretty well-managed. they come out the best on the pension front. they have liabilities that are about average relative to assets with the rest of the nation. a net asset ratio that indicates they may be dipping into assets to pay for current spending. they are a mixed story.

someone in the middle. i have to flag them as the best in managing the pension obligation. greta wodele brawner: robert in mississippi. was it like there? caller: i would like to ask some information about the pension debt that some of these states have. isn't a pension plan designed like an insurance plan, where you put money in, and gamble that you are going to get it back when you need it? and some people who don't live long enough don't get what they paid in? or is it that if somebody dies early, their descendents get the money? is that true? does she know that for sure? can she tell me? greta wodele brawner: eileen norcross is not an expert on pensions per se. eileen norcross: you're talking

about mortality risk in a plan. there is no way to manage that other than that it is based on the mortality of that individual before they collect their pension. the risk in pensions stems from the accounting. they have been valued based on the expectation that the assets are going to perform really well. economists are arguing you need to value that liability like it is a bond. when you do that you are using lower discount rates and your liability is larger and you have to put more aside today. economists are concerned about the investment risk. that is something they can manage. the mortality side they can't manage. greta wodele brawner: we are talking about the fiscal health in each of the states. the mercatus center at george mason university is out with a new report about what is

happening in the states along with state rankings. you can find that on their website, mercatus.org. eileen norcross is the state and local policy project director. she put together this report we are talking about. we are asking all of you to call in and way tell us what is going on in your state. joann in indiana. good morning. go ahead. caller: in indiana we are more or less used as slave laborers. they put temps all over indiana. if start through them to get a job or even to be looked at for a permanent job anywhere else. this ranks from anywhere to your construction workers to your

distribution centers. this minimum wage entry-level is the only way that they are even looking at people for full-time positions. is why indiana is doing so well. these temp places take two dollars per hour out of each and every one of these people's pockets. somewhere in these temp areas for more than one year. they are supposed to be placed into permanent positions somewhere within six months. this never happens. greta wodele brawner: ok. do you have any thoughts? eileen norcross: i did not look at employment in this study or even the rate of employment so i don't have any comments for that. but thank you for your comment. greta wodele brawner: what about living wages? there is a lot of debate in states about raising the minimum wage and what impact does that have? eileen norcross: that is more the economic side.

that may be something to look at in terms of balancing that the fiscal picture and economic picture. i did not look at that. greta wodele brawner: james in ohio. caller: it tends to be fair to partly cloudy on these days. my comment has to do with the recent budget in ohio. they fought over this that and the other thing, but the bottom line is the governor wanted to decrease taxes on the people making more than $250,000 but increase the sales tax which affects every person, even the person like me on social security. and that tends to be a rather stark way of dealing with budget crisis. and i want to get a comment on that. eileen norcross: i haven't looked at ohio's tax rates income versus sales.

there are pros and cons to how you structure your tax system. i would need to know more about how the income tax is structured versus what they are trying to do there. if they are trying to get more revenue, how is that sales tax structured, are there exemptions it sounds like they're trying to perhaps look at a tax structure that would bring in more revenue. but what is the behavioral effect, the fairness effect. i did not look at the tax structure in this study so i couldn't comment further. greta wodele brawner: mike in pennsylvania. but is it like there? caller: i live in a small town in the middle of the state. it seems to be holding its own. i try to support local merchants. i think they are doing ok but i wouldn't say it's great. my question to eileen is do you have any idea of the long-term impact of fracking?

there's a lot of that going on in pennsylvania and people claim it generates lots of jobs but are not sure pennsylvanians are making high wages and i am worried about the long-term impact of the environmental cleanup and the damage to the roads. the roads are really beat up because of the trucks back and forth to fracking sites. i'm interested in your perception of what happens when all of the fracking wells are deserted and the big jobs go away and what is left. eileen norcross: it might be useful to look at north dakota as a comparison. they are going through that right now. we have seen on the fiscal side is it has been a windfall in terms of revenue. but as i caution, that windfall revenue means they are also building up expenses. that level of expenses can't necessarily be supported by state personal income. that is on the fiscal side. in terms of the economic effects and wages and the environmental

impact, i would say look to north dakota. it has been a few years. see what those effects have been. greta wodele brawner: bernadette is in new mexico. good morning. caller: my question is how much of what is going on in new mexico or throughout the nation is dealing with agenda 21? we see an influx of mental illness here in new mexico and i am wondering what is really happening right now. to those people who are not familiar with agenda 21, i think they should the. i personally think that we need to revisit agenda 21 and put a stop to it. greta wodele brawner: we will move on to ann in illinois. you are on the air. caller: i'm calling about

illinois. illinois is doing horribly. the governor is trying to do stuff now, but he can't do anything because everybody is democrats and he is a republican. now the local governments are trying to take all the money so everyone that is working for any local government industries or anything is not getting their state checks so they can't pay their bills or anything. greta wodele brawner: let's dig into illinois little bit. eileen norcross: what you are seeing there is tension building between the state and the localities. chicago has a huge pension problem. the local governments are starting to feel the stress on their budgets.

the illinois state supreme court said, the constitution says you cannot compare these benefits -- impair these benefits. what you are seeing is pressure mounting statewide. they have a little room left to maneuver in terms of how they are going to start paying for this. they are looking to local governments, even the mayor of chicago was looking to other pension systems -- other local school district systems in order to figure out how he is going to deal chicago's pension plan. you're starting to see the relationship get tense among springfield and the local governments. greta wodele brawner: russ in connecticut. caller: things are very tough year. we have a tough budget battle. the state tried to cut funds. no matter what they cut there were outcries. it didn't matter if they were

cutting the governor's horse cart. they cut out salutes at veterans funerals. the veterans were up in arms about that. health care for people who are disabled. we have so many things. one comment i want to make, this is a state that pays more into the federal government than we get back. our federal taxes are going to help other states. greta wodele brawner: connecticut is one of the bottom five in the fiscal report put out by the c mercatus center. eileen norcross: they had a poor cash ratio. revenue is about expenses that year. they have a long-term liability ratio of 1.26. they have liabilities 1.2 times

larger than the assets behind them. large liability per capita. net asset ratio is negative which means they are probably looking at pay-as-you-go. the pension problem i calculate is much larger than they do. they have an unfunded liability in their pension system of 76 billion. that is 35% of state personal income. those benefits are unfunded. the health-care benefits are being funded on a pay-as-you-go basis and that explains that pressure that is building every year. they are not in great budgetary health. they have some stress building there. greta wodele brawner: back to illinois. good morning. caller: good morning. i'm scared to death about what is going on in illinois and i would like to know if your study addresses the disparity

between what the pensioners receive, dollars, and what people on social security like myself receive. many of the state employees retire after 20 years of service and they get $7,000 a month. social security no way pays that. i would like to see some figures. does your study address that you eileen norcross:? eileen norcross: it does not. there are studies that have unpacked illinois pension plan and try to address that. there is information out there on that question but it is not part of the study. greta wodele brawner: again from illinois good morning. caller: good morning. i am on a state pension. it is very small for me because

i work halftime on social security which i don't get. illinois has a problem because we had a flat tax. your first caller said we needed a flat tax for everybody to pay the same. that's we had for over 40 years. every time somebody ran on raising that income tax, their opponent would say, oh they want to raise it 100%. the governor finally got elected and then didn't get elected because of raising the tax. flat tax doesn't work. our citizens are just as responsible as our government. it is not all that cheating in government. we needed a progressive tax and we have needed it all this time and we're just getting further in the hole.

eileen norcross: i can speak to pensions. the problem going on across the united states is the accounting for years has been misleading. it has implied that you can set aside less today than is needed to fund that benefit in the future. in the case of illinois, connecticut, new jersey, massachusetts, california, these states issued bonds to make that payment. new jersey would skip a payment and issue a bond. when you skip pension payments, you're basically saying i am only going to pay a fraction of my credit card and then open another want to cover it. they are dealing with that now. they thought that looks like it would work out 20 years ago. tomorrow is now today and they are facing that mounting bill for how they decide to fund these systems so the accounting is misleading across the board. the states that did those

gimmicks on top of misleading accounting are having to dig out now. greta wodele brawner: linda in ohio. caller: everybody talks about how no one can afford the deductibles and premiums for obamacare so they go in with no insurance. i am from ohio. governor kasich has brought in my care and it is privatization of medicare and medicaid and will progress to social security as you have heard. other parts of the government are privatizing. these private companies don't pay providers on time. a push to agencies for care.

so it gives raises to the agencies and they don't pay on time. you want independence, because you want to know who is coming into your house and their address and phone number. you want to know who they are. you can't with an agency. if you have any questions or would be happy to answer. eileen norcross: i don't study the medicaid issue that closely but thank you for your comment. i don't have anything to add to that. greta wodele brawner: medicaid spending goes back to what you are talking about. that is an issue for some of these states. eileen norcross: that is going to put some pressure on the budget going forward. it is going to grow a little bit each year. they have been dealing with that over a period of years. it is one of their biggest areas. i think that pressure is going

to continue. greta wodele brawner: the color in california. make quick. caller: this woman has an agenda to destroy retirement plans. in california for every dollar we pay in federal taxes, we only get $.75 back. that means we are carrying the baggage for the rest of the country. this is a big state and there is a lot of money here. i don't know what this agenda is to try and destroy retirement plans. if we didn't offshore all the jobs, if we had living wages people would make more money and be able to put more money into those funds. eileen norcross: i don't want to destroy pension plans. i think is a tragedy what happened in the accounting over a 30 year period. the accounting has been misleading. in the case of california, if you assume these high investment

returns, he gets the accounting system the illusion that investment risk is going to pay for the plan. when the market crashes, that is when they get these big holes in the plan. they don't make that annual payment regularly. we see that in new jersey and illinois. so i think the state should be making good on these promises. greta wodele brawner: we have to leave it there. the house is about to gavel in. eileen norcross, thank you. we now bring you to the house floor. thanks for watching live coverage here on c-span. washington, d.c., july 9 2015. i hereby appoint the honorable david g. valadao to act as speaker pro tempore on this day. signed, john a. boehner, speaker of the house of representatives. the speaker pro tempore: pursuant to the order of the house of january 6, 2015, the chair will now recognize members from lists submitted by the majority and minority leaders for morning hour debate .