example, what has happened with household wealth, unemployment rates, income and equality. this is all part of our program looking at americans and how they view their middle-class status, where they see themselves compared to others and how they see their financial futures. host: let's start off with selena and houston, texas or those who have an income of below $25,000. caller: at one time i did work for the food stamp office. i am now retired on a fixed income but i see the problem that children have, especially with black parents is the parents have these [indiscernible] i think that is one of the major reasons. guest: that is exactly right. then being gainfully employed was one of the challenges that many people face and this was partly but is causing some of the higher poverty rates we see among some groups of americans. host: 202-7 48-8000 for income

below 25000 and 202-748-8001 for all others. james, you are next from massachusetts. hello? caller: mi actually on tv? host: you are, go ahead. caller: i had no idea. i'm site i was not prepared. i am an individual who spend a lot of time in school. i have a lot of education yet i found myself making basically welfare wages. i'm curious what you would say about this middle class. i have $200,000 in student loans. i make about 25,000-30,000 dollars a year. i have no idea where this is going, frankly. guest: it is a very good question and something we have been tracking at the pew research center for a while.

looking at the ways americans exceed themselves and rather not they see themselves as part of the middle class and to what it takes to be part of the middle class. perhaps one of the most interesting public opinion results we have had is that we take a look at -- you asked americans, do you expect or chip in to have a better standard of living than you do now? you start to see many americans of saying, no, we do not expect our children to be better off in the future than they are now. that is an indication or a collection of some of the challenges that you just outlined. everything from student debt to maybe people pursuing education but sometimes those particular degrees do not translate into significantly higher wage, particularly with large student debt. these are things we have been looking at as parts of the broader story around what has been happening with the american middle class. certainly your sentiments are sentiments we have seen in many public opinion surveys of broad and part of the american public. host: in massachusetts, go

ahead. caller: thank you for taking my call. i had to questions for the data on hispanic americans and hispanic immigrants. did you segregate metrics between puerto rican hispanics versus citizens or immigrants from mexico, central america, and latin america? and my second question, or a non-survey question about african-american performance -- you know, i really think it is the lack of a two-parent household going back 60-70 years really and i think social support is well intended -- while intended and decades of public housing, food vouchers.

you know, i do not think they are working because you tend to segregate african-americans into just large blocks of underachieving. there are no role models, there is no middle class residents were they used to be in american cities with a high industrial base, you would have a strong middle class that would be aspirational for people in the lower rungs of their demographic. i am curious about puerto rican performance because i believe that they mirror, in my opinion because they have been segregated in public housing etc. on the success or failure of i think african-americans in this country. host: thank you. guest: very good question, susan. puerto ricans versus others -- for this particular report, we did not do an analysis for poverty rates for puerto ricans

versus mexican-americans versus cubans, versus dominicans etc.. one of the things we have done is take a look at poverty rates generally for these hispanic origin groups. yes, the poverty rate for puerto ricans is higher than other hispanic origin groups, but many hispanic origin groups have high poverty rates higher than what you see for whites generally. the one group of hispanic that generally has a lower poverty rate is actually cuban-americans. and also many hispanics who trace their roots to south america. these are groups are you have a high share of people with a college degree and many folks in this particular group also have high median household incomes. there are indeed differences. in terms of african-americans and an african-american in the middle class and some of the broad economic changes that have happened in the united states over the course of the last 50 years have not only impacted them african-american middle class but probably impacted the u.s. middle class overall. many americans who used to have

middle-class jobs working in manufacturing for example have seen those jobs disappear over the course of the last 30 years or 40's. of course, the economy is always transitioning and in the process of transition, some jobs and subsectors of the economy are hit harder than others. but there interesting questions and to like. host: reporting that there are many people, tens of thousands of puerto ricans coming to the united states because of its current economic conditions. guest: yes, some of the research we have done suggest that about 70,000 people have been coming annually from the island to the united states. 20,000 return every year so it is a net of about 50,000 but we are seeing this accelerate. a lot seems to be related to finding a job. why you come into the united states and one of the big reasons is to find a job. host: william is up next. hello. caller: yes, my question is -- a lot of black unemployment is because other nationalities are

coming in and the people that own the workplaces are usually white man. they take them over black males and i see it in workplaces because i worked in factories. now you go into work factories and it is 80% 90% mexicans and they are taking all the jobs. we always had that problem in america being black. the white man always take every other group even though we work and die to build this country and every other group they take them before us. and thank you. guest: interesting comment. certainly we have seen a growth in the number of people from other countries coming to united states. the u.s. has more than 40 million immigrants today. any of those immigrants are of working age, so when you take a look at the labor dissipation rate of immigrants, they tend to be higher than they are for the

american public generally. many immigrants are taking jobs in different sectors, not just a manufacturing. we are also seeing immigrants in positions such as professors or positions in the tech industry. there has been a broad -- on-site, the population has certainly been engaged in the labor market in the united states in a number of different areas and not just in manufacturing. host: mark hugo lopez of pew research center joining us. this is teresa. hello. caller: good morning. i live in tennessee and i know many, many people in tennessee and kentucky on food stamps, and the first thing they do at the first of the month when they get the card is to sell them for pain pills or drugs and they get $.50 on the dollar for them. that supports their drug habit so they do not feed their kids. their kids are fed through the school system so they do not have to worry about by nutrition

for their children. and they will not find a job but they make more money statement on their butt doing their drugs and accepting welfare than they ever would with the job. they have free childcare, subsidized housing, so it enables people not to find a job and to stay in poverty and i would like your comment on that. to like. guest: very interesting question. when you take a look at, for example, people who are in poverty. there are many got participated in poverty programs for a number of years. the persistence of poverty for some parts of the american public is, well, many people in persistent poverty for many, many years and about. it is hard to draw a firm conclusion on your particular question because there is so much your question, but certainly there are some parts of the public that to participate in poverty for many, many years. host: yanna, you are next.

caller: good morning. i and an african-american middle-class woman in maryland. i am a social worker. i really have a question -- i do not know how much research has been done in terms of african-americans, what are some of the issues that are really impacting the african-american race with being able to keep up and to raise up in terms of the poverty level? i heard someone earlier talk about the fact that white folks giving them opportunities and others talked about the system. i also had conversations with the blood that talk about -- with people that talk about the system does not allow people to be self-sufficient, kind of helping people to stay stuck. as a social worker, i can see both sides of the coin. has there been any research that has gotten into the wise so we can get to the real mean for not

just african-americans but poor people in general, specifically african-american so we can understand, what is this stuckness about? has to be research that has pointed it out? guest: very good question. i think there is a lot of research out there that has looked into this and it sort of point to one particular research. particularly education because education is one of the main vehicles that can help somebody achieve in the united states today. for example, when you take a look at the share of african-americans up a college degree, that share is about 20% of people 25 and older. for hispanics, 50%, lower number. the whites, 30 something percent, for asians, more than half. -- for hispanics 15%, lower number. the whites, 30 something percent, for asians more than half. that is not going to be a solution for everybody, but it is one of the ways in which one

can reduce the poverty rate for one particular group. host: from iona, michigan judy is joining us with mark hugo lopez. hello. caller: hello? host: hi, you are on. caller: of his. i have a concern about the prison population in michigan probably elsewhere i am sure but i live in michigan. i know that it is very bad and they are blessing these inmates from one prison to the other constantly -- blessing these inmates from one prison to the other constantly and i'm not sure what the point is and it is costing the taxpayers millions of dollars. if there is a way we can reduce the prison population, even if it is to put them in halfway houses with monitors on them to keep track of them, it would just make more sense then to keep just piling one on top of the other and busting them -- and bussing them from prison to

prison and costing the state millions of dollars. i just do not understand it. guest: you have a really interesting point. we take a look at who is imprisoned african-americans and latino males particularly, are more likely to be imprisoned than any other group of americans. many even served many years in prison. of course, once one had spent time in prison, that can have major impact on the types of jobs of that one being able to get once one leaves prison. in terms of the nation's prison population, it is population has overrepresentation of block and white men. this is one of the challenges for both the communities and something that plays a role and impact in poverty rates. in terms of the question about taxpayers paying for prisons and what happens, particularly in michigan, i am not familiar with what is happening in michigan but it is an interesting

question. host: pew research center also includes that black children chair population 23.7% and 34.8% in poverty for blacks. hispanic children chair 32 point 9% and hispanics in poverty 42.5%. you reference this before, but what would you like to add on as far as this research? guest: this is an example wasted overrepresentation of poverty among hispanic children. for example, we talk about hispanic children, a greater share of all people in poverty who are hispanic children that are representation children overall in the hispanic population. it only shows you that much of the impact of poverty in the latino and african-american community is really young people, not necessarily equally distributed across the population. host: harrisburg, pennsylvania, wayne, good morning to you. hello. caller: i would like to know that everybody who came on the phone that was talking, i went

to go another way. what about the psychological aspect? ok, i have been here 50 years. a person can get locked up on the same corner then a week later, there is another person that are selling drugs. if a person got killed in that same spot, there is another person that comes up there. i had watched this for good years happen. it has to be psychological. you need to have some psychiatrists appear to try and figure out what is the psyche of these young black men. that is all i have to say. guest: i would say that the same would apply to young hispanics as well and also other groups of you people who live in poverty. i think this is not only a challenge for the african-american males but for

others, too. host: from ashburn, virginia jimmy is next for our guest. caller: hi, good morning. this is a very interesting conversation. african-american male here so all the comments -- they are all right on. i would like to know a couple things. number one, how did you collect your data? number two, what are the figures for each of the areas, each of the nationalities? in other words, how many african-americans? how many asians? so we can get a better idea of the magnitude of this problem. also, in your analytics, someone mentioned the prisons. a lot of folks are incarcerated because of mandatory sentences. you know, they might have a small amount of marijuana or something and then they go straight to jail. and when they get out and they tried to get or fill out a job application, they have to put this information on their and

that is automatically going to get them a denial for a job. these are a lot of the things that if you put those in your analytics, give us an idea of how many folks cannot get a job because of that simple thing that they went to jail because of some small amount, some minor -- host: got you, thank you. guest: first, the data, what is the data come from? it is from the u.s. census bureau, collected by the u.s. census bureau, part of an annual data collection that particularly looks at income poverty, and health insurance. a survey of over 150,000 people nationwide and it is representative of the nation as a whole. again, something that has been double sometime since the 1970's, this has been a regular piece of research that has produced by the federal government looking at poverty in the united states. your second question, what is the magnitude of these numbers? let's talk about the childhood

poverty numbers -- how many african-american children live in poverty? 4.2 million. there are 4.2 million african-american children living in poverty out of the 14.7 million children overall who live in poverty. how many hispanic children? about 5 million. how many white children? 4.1 million. you can to the magnitude of these numbers. we talk abou african-american children living in poverty, that poverty rate is at 38%. that is hard at what he does for hispanics at 30% and higher for whites which is below 15%. taking a look at poverty rates of rob, you can see that african-americans -- poverty rates overall, you can see that african americans are on the higher rate. you asked about the role of spending time in prison, having a felony conviction and what that might mean for job later on. you are right that this has an important impact on people's jobs prospects whether they are african-american or not.

once they leave prison and this is something the president has been trying to address in the last week or so, visiting a prison and also talking a lot about changing, perhaps, some of the ways in which sentencing is done, it particular person -- small drug violations. all of this is something that impacts african-american men particularly and something i think you will probably see more discussion because it seems to be something many researchers are focusing on more than before. host: what statistics tell us about people moving out of poverty -- guest: interesting, not everybody lives of poverty for their whole lives. people come and go, so there is the cycling in and out of poverty. a lot of times they fall into poverty because of a job loss.

a job loss leads to a family falling into poverty but eventually there may be a couple of months of poverty and they may move out. that is the story for most people but there are some people who are in poverty for many, many years, perhaps even decades. and that is the persistent poverty problem which is somewhat more challenging to address. host: from germantown, maryland, clem, hello. caller: hi, i have been listening to this conversation and it is rather interesting and enlightening at the same time. i think -- this is really a vicious and terrible cycle in the sense that it is not a problem which comes out to the front on its own. it is actually a problem that is inclined in so many other social statures. for example, i am looking at the african-american side -- the major call of this is the mentality that people have with regards to african-americans their children are born into this and they just grow up --

i'm talking about the social ills that we have in this country. before i even go there, i wanted to ask you how do we compare to the rest of the world? in the countries where child poverty -- do we rank amongst them? or is the rate of poverty of children better than the rest of the world? host: clem, we will let our guest respond to that. how does the u.s. shall poverty rate compared to other countries? guest: you take a look at european countries are other developed countries like the united states, the united states has a higher poverty rate for children then you see in other parts of the developed world. when you compare the united states to other countries, say countries in latin america, or africa, or agent that are not part -- or asia that are not part of the broader developed well you do to be was poverty rate is not as high as you see

in some of these other parts of the country. we just published a report that looked at income inequality around the world. if you're interested, you should take a look to see what share of different countries populations live on two dollars a day, or live on $10 a day, or live on $20 a day. it is actually quite striking how much variation there is in terms of poverty around the world. how much progress there has been made in moving people out of the poverty but a lot of it has been moving them barely out of poverty. that is why the united states child poverty rate is lower than what you see for some around the world. host: we are talking about child poverty rates with mark hugo lopez of the pew research center . their findings can be found on their website at pewresear ch.org. dylan from new jersey, hello. caller: cap, i would just like

to say that people say the best way to decrease childhood poverty is to have every form -- host: we will go next to brittany, hopkins, michigan. hello. brittany from michigan, hello? caller: hi. host: you are on, go ahead. caller: hello. host: brittany, go ahead. you are on the phone. caller: i was calling to support michigan prison reform. host: ok. thank you. yasmin from atlanta, georgia. you are on what mark hugo lopez. good morning. caller: good morning. i was just calling to say that i feel like a lot of the poverty in the african-american community is generally should know. -- community is generational. they do not see how they can get out of that so they start to

learn about using government assistance to live a certain type of lifestyle at a very early age, and they just pass that along to their kids and their kids and their kids. it is a never ending cycle within our community. guest: i would say that is not only a challenge for the african-american community but also you see this happening in other communities as well. a very good point. host: from betty, that he lives in new york. good morning. go ahead. caller: hi, i just want to tell my people that we have to look at the difference between [indiscernible] if they know who we are, because the real israelites, we would understand what is going on in this world. host: one last call. patricia, oklahoma city. hello. caller: hi, one thing i think is

that the study the pew institute, i believe that is what is called, there have been a lot of things that have changed starting in the 1980's computer going for the african-american community. one of the things was, and it is evident here in oklahoma, is that you had to make sure that hispanics and asians took over a lot of the jobs that african-americans had and their agencies in oklahoma where they have gotten rid of all of the african-american employees and replace them with hispanic and asians. this has been going on for the last 30 years. to suggest that in has something to do with quality with

african-americans, this is a systematic purposeful -- it was intentional. this is -- basically, this is a progress report for those people who push to make sure that african-americans did not enjoy all the benefits of being citizens, so they just replace them with the hispanics and the asians in a lot of the job forces. guest: thank you for your comment. i would say that our report is really just a report that reports the numbers. what we have seen in terms of poverty rates and so forth. your point about the changing labor market landscape particular for african-americans, or perhaps being replaced by hispanics and others who come to the country in the last 30 years or 40 years, our point out that the u.s. labor market has grown larger and it hasn't changed in terms of its characteristics. there is a number of forces that

work in which i think have impacted not only the african-american labor market in experience, but the experience will hispanics, asians, and whites as well. host: pewreserach.org is we can find out that. mark hugo lopez the director. thank you for your time. for the remainder of the phone open phones. here aside can call it -- -- here is how you can call we will take open phones with "washington journal" continues. ♪ ♪ >> freedom breeds inequality.

he was always to the right and on most always in the wrong. >> filmmakers robert gordon and norman rat -- neville talk about the documentary "best of enemies" between where you left buckley and over war, politics, god, and sex. >> very unlike today. today, i believe there is someone saying the numbers are doing doing, they talk about hot topics, hot salacious topic number two. whereas then, i do not think that was the norm in tv at the time and i do not think these guys need to, as morgan said these guys did not need that. >> the moderator, a distinguished newsnight, who i think was really embarrassed by this. he was moderating but he disappears for some time five

minutes at a time today, you would not have a moderator jump in every 30 seconds. i think really everybody at abc just stood back and let the fire burned. >> sunday night at 8:00 eastern and pacific on c-span's "q&a." >> "washington journal" continues. host: open phones, 2-74 8-8000 for democrats. 202-7 48-8001 for republicans. 202-7 48-8003 for independents. . john kasich is going to make his announcement and you can see it on c-span3. you can also listen on c-span radio and watch on www.c-span.org as well. if you go to the editorial page

of the des moines register today, their lead editorial specifically takes a look at presidential politics and direct's comments to donald trump, asking him to leave the campaign. here is what some of the editors write this morning -- saying in the five weeks since he announced his campaign to seek the gop nomination, trump has been more focused on lending himself -- he certainly did so by questioning the war record of john mccain, the republican senator from arizona. that is the editorial in the des moines register this morning. open phones, we start with roger in miami, florida. project, go ahead. caller: good morning.

i wanted to address the last segment with mr. mark hugo lopez pertaining to poverty amongst all americans. i think the underlying issue is our economic system. capitalism is the issue. it requires an underclass of thousands of people to survive. it is very vampire a stick and it feeds on the poor to survive. unless we address the overarching issue of our economic system of cataclysm we will never address poverty because it needs an underclass. look at countries that are more socialistic and they tend to do a lot better. not suggesting that socialism is the way because that has issues, too, but i think the overarching problem is capitalism. we do not want to talk about it because we worship it, but that is -- you want to end poverty? we have to find a new economic platform. host: what is that economic platform? caller: i would say that it has to be a hybrid or combination of anarchism. when you hear and a crisp they

think people running around entering things that but that is not what it is. it is a whole process and requires a whole new way of thinking where people actually own their own labor. from the manufacturer that makes the jet planes and the cars to people who make the pants we wear and the clothes we wear people have to own their labor. you cannot have an elite at the top believe everything that we make and two for the rest of society and not expect to have -- it is a new way of thinking and not just one way of looking at it but capitalism is the problem and i think it is starting to show its up to be a failure. host: pollock from asheville, north carolina. republican mine. if you are next. good morning. caller: good morning. how are you doing, pedro? host: well, to buy. caller: -- host: i am well, thank you. caller: you have responsibility

for how many children you are going to have. if you come over here and you just have child after child after child, of course that hispanics are higher poverty. of course the black people are high. this is why white people have only the children that they can support, most of the time. not all of the time you've got to have some sense about this and not just come over here to collect tax dollars were to have a child that is american or just to have children because you want to have children. you've got to be responsible about it. if you want the get your child out of poverty, i suggest what birth control is. host: 202-7 48-8000 our line for democrats. 202-7 48-8001 our line for republicans. 202-74 8-8003 our line for independent.

to focus more intently on military hardware than on less profitable government services. the transition will be structured in a way that generates the tax benefit of about $1.9 billion for lockheed martin and shareholders, effectively reducing the purchase price to 7.1 billion dollars according to folks at lockheed. again, 202-7 48-8000 for democrats. 202-748-8001 republicans.

yolanda, hello. caller: hello, i will like to make a request of c-span. i watch you regularly and i have never seen a program that tells the public how companies and organizations become tax-exempt and how tax credits are decided to be given to certain organizations. now that is one thing i would like to know more about. host: why are interested in this topic? caller: because i have been reading there are so many, so many, so many organizations that are tax exempt and they are profitable. and so that could mean more revenue to take care of poor children but on the other hand, there has to be some program for

distributing help to people that actually need it. i would like that to become a focus for the people of this united states to know because i've have been reading and it is incredible how much taxes are not being collected. the country is in need of revenue and work. how to bring that about is for our legislators to think about. the one thing i never hear is how large, profitable corporations are making billions of dollars and they are tax exempt. host: we have done segments on the past if you want to go to our website and type some of those keywords, we can show you segments we have done.

before we let you go, yolanda your thoughts on new governor announcing his intention to run for president of the united states as a republican. caller: i have voted both ways. whoever appears more logical to me. i know we have a governor who has done some things for ohio, but not enough, and not enough for the places as well. i would like to know how that is -- i have read stuff on the computer and nobody actually tells you how to actually determine whether a company should be tax exempt. host: yolanda, if you go to our website, www.c-span.org, and type in those topics we will show you all the segments we thought, not only on this program but on our other platforms and networks. again, www.c-span.org is where you go for that. governor kasich announcing his intention to run for president

of the united states. see that at 11:00 on c-span3 c-span radio and www.c-span.org . john, hi. caller: hi, pedro. i would like to make a small comment. i will be briefed about the poverty rate. i am 68 years old, a vietnam vet and i just retired four years ago. my mother had 12 children. we grew up in poverty, but the things that helped us out most was the parents have to have a work incentive. my mother was on welfare for about 10 years but she always told us the work ethic and we had the spiritual base of working hard. some of my brothers went to jail, some of my sisters had their little problems, but my mother -- i did not have a father at home. once i got out of the service, i went to school and it was just

little things that helped like summer programs little incentives like that. that is almost people need little incentive because if they do not have a little help, they stay in poverty. but they still have got to have that spiritual base and a work ethic and they had just got to work hard in america. i don't have no problems. i told my children the same way and i teach my grandchildren the same way, and i am just saying i am blessed to be in america. host: that is john. here is dino, from garland, texas. go ahead. caller: i wanted to comment on the poverty thing and why people are in poverty. not all of them -- it is all races, not just blacks or spanish, but the majority of lakhs and spanish multiply faster -- of blacks and spanish multiply faster than whites. i'm making six $2000 a year and

i've only got two kids and you're making $40,000 you, you own -- and you have four kids, naturally, you are going to be poor than me because you more responsibility. it is part of the parents who bring the kids in the world summation they have enough money to support these kids. whites do make less children more and are a little more responsible so when they make the money over a long period of time. i see it all the time when i work out where you have got housecleaning people married to construction workers and it got four kids. how are you going to support your kids when you do not have this kind of income coming in? these kids are going to be poor. i just wanted to make a comment on that because i think it should have been more broadly spoken because some people are not communicating properly on this situation. host: open phones until 10:00. if you want to keep on calling and make gods known -- and make

lots known, (202)-784-8000 fo democrats. r (202)-784-8001 for republicans. (202)-748-8002 f independence. ofindings available on a website that www.c-span.org. joining us to talk about the poll in the service, robert green. he is a pollster and principal mr. greene, hello. guest: how are you? host: fine, thank you very much. one of the things you ask about of those super participated is the topic of the supreme court bipartisanship. what were you looking for and what did you find? guest: what you found was the public basically -- we gave them a choice whether they thought the supreme court was acting in a serious and constitutionally sound manner or whether in essence they see them -- they proceed the court as partisans

like democrats republicans in congress. essentially two in three think they are acting along partisan lines. moderates and conservatives basically see it as partisans, a little less among liberals. in fact, that is the only real divide among the public where liberals tend to see them as acting in a constitutionally sound manner. americans of every type and description, with the exception of liberals, say that they are split into parties like republicans and democrats. in essence, almost like they are politicians and roads. host: where these responses specifically tied to decisions about same-sex marriage, decisions about subsidies under the health care law or was it overall people were asked about the things? guest: we have asked his question in the past in a somewhat different form having looked at these issues over six years, 10 times, actually. this time, we thought we might

see something different about this split on political grounds like congress when we asked them in terms of the affordable care act, also known as obamacare, and half the people heard that. half the people heard whether the same-sex marriage decision whether they were split on political grounds are acting in a constitutional manner. the learning was the split is the same. it did not actually make that much difference. essentially, two and three americans think that the act like republicans and democrats in congress rather than acting in a serious and constitutional manner. host: mr. greene, one of the things we talk about on c-span and other people talk about as well, the idea of cameras in the supreme court. you asked questions about it what did you find? guest: this has been so interesting over the six years a majority have always supported cameras in the supreme court.

what we are finding is that the support is actually at 15%. it bounces around but it has never dropped below the 60's -- low 60's. now, basically three and four americans, and this includes americans of every type and description, does not matter if their liberal, old, young, they are virtually identical percentages and they say they would like to have tv coverage of the supreme court. host: when the matter of lifetime appointed, which is out supreme court justices are chosen and what they get, to the public think that is a good thing or bad thing? guest: well, that is another thing i found fascinating about these numbers. most people, when you are asked to strongly agree to disagree that the u.s. supreme court justices should serve lifetime appointments daybreak 60-40

against lifetime -- they break 60-40 against lifetime alternatives. you give them alternatives, it gets released on. in essence, we get essentially four in five americans would prefer -- and we tested this particular alternative, there has been others. we tested and 18 europe women with the potential for reappointment -- in other words somebody could serve as long as 36 years. in any case, when you give them something specific, the public knows what they want which is they would much prefer that these guys were serving long terms rather than lifetime appointments as is true today. host: robert green i found the auspicious event to talk about the educational background of the justices, why did you find out? guest: we thought it would be interesting to see whether in fact we basically mentioned --

reset up -- well, all the justices are basically all come from harvard, yale, columbia law school and whether in fact they sought -- they've got justices would ideally come from some different background. what we found was very strong for the one support for different backgrounds rather than, if you would, the ivy league law schools. interestingly, the older you are , the more likely you are to follow the courts 50 and older voters as well as nonvoters i enormous margins. eight to 11 justices to come from a different background. the only americans slightly to support more of what might be thought of ivy league traditionalism would be the younger ones. not that they don't also want

justices from a different background, but the margins are little closer there. in essence, americans want something different. now, one thing that was sort of fun about this, in essence what we were looking at were strangely, if you saw justice scalia's the sand in terms of same-sex marriage, he actually touched some of the same notes that this question also looked at. we wrote the question before any of that happened and have asked this question several times over the years. they really would prefer terms on term limits, excuse me they preferred terms and they would also prefer that the supreme court justices came from somewhat different and presumably broader backgrounds and what they do today. host: much more information available on this recent poll of the u.s. supreme court. robert grey joining us to talk about it. thank you for your time. guest: -- robert green joining us to talk about it. thank you for your time. guest: thank you, sir.

host: you can find that cameras in the court specific page tied and dedicated to that topic. if you want to tell them what about where the justices stand out what other things have been said about cameras in the supreme court. back to open phones. this is avon park, florida. john, thank you for waiting. go ahead. caller: hi, my name is john and i am a government employee. i would like to tell the people that there is not going to be a 2016 election. host: why so? caller: because under the obama administration, they are going to launch a weapon of blood the united states, either north korea or russia, and this emp is going to detonate and it is going to destroy the internet

satellite, cell phones, all communication, everywhere. there is going to be riding in the streets -- ritinoting in the streets and he is going to declare martial law. when he declares martial law that is when they will start -- they will start rounding up everybody and put them in caps. host: tim from alabama. republican line. caller: yes, i would like to comment about the young lady who was benched in the jail in texas. i think what happened was the police had told her that she was going to be released and in order to escort her to the jail cell to the place where they were going to release her, they had to handcuff her.

once they put the handcuffs on her, then i do not think she was able to resist being lynched by the police officer that were there. what i would like to see done is that there be a sandra bland law that anybody who is in jail for some reason and unarmed or whatever, they seem to have died while in police custody, that there be a law passed say that the fbi and the doj should come in and investigate. i would like to see a law passed like that. thank you very much. host: david from florida. independent line. caller: hello, how are you doing? my comment is basically on mr. lopez. lots of things he didn't do. once of the things he didn't do is that poverty may be an

individual problem and i know that when i grew up, we do not know we were in poverty but i guess we were in poverty because my father was on subsidized government subsidies at certain times, but he did work. what they did in school and stuff like that was kind of teaching that you should work. i don't know that they teach you in school. when i got out of paschal, which i did graduate and most of my friends did not -- when i got out of high school, which i did graduate unless my friends did not come i went into the military and i learned the discipline that i needed. i got out of the area i was in, the socioeconomic area i was in, and what i found was a lot of my friends did the same thing that were in the military and race was not an issue. i got along -- we all got along with everything. we had common goals and things like this and eventually i did retire from the military. he gave me a direction. the way out.

i think that young people should realize that it is their responsibility to get out of the poverty, not the government's responsibility to get them out of poverty. that it is an individual problem and hopefully they will come up with a solution. when i was older and countered people -- and counsel people when they had a discipline problem because of may be something that had happened in their youth or something, i would tell them -- they would tell me terrible stories and i would tell them, well, you know that is a really terrible thing, but when you are 25 nobody is really going to care what kind of childhood you had so you need to get over those things and move forward. host: ok, david in florida. hervey from mississippi. democrat line. caller: we need -- we had $4.2 billion every year for

protection for 10 years and anybody that has received reparations for the damage done to him, they have always done good here in america. america has a problem with destroying the black family -- they take the black males, $3000 a month to keep them in federal prison, turn around and give a black female $1000 a month and turn around to give her a most $800 in food stamps, turn around and have the kids on medicare and medicaid, that is over $6,000 a month. if they used that money, the family would not be in poverty and this would subsidize for reparations. if we watch anything else, the indians and the jews are doing fine in america. host: "the washington post" with their front -- their front page over corruption charges saying that lawyers for the senator accused federal prosecutors and fbi of light to win a corruption indictment in the spring, saying that the justice department with

"stop at nothing" to try to convict the powerful lawmaker. the story goes on in the pages of "the washington post" this morning. we go to brian in tennessee, republican line. caller: yes, sir. i was calling about the poverty of children in america and also my point was along the lines of the last caller in that it is more than the color of somebody's skin. it is the breakdown of nuclear family. in the black community there

going a lot more than others and you look at the poverty rate, i do not know about hispanic anyway, that was my comment. host: it also takes a look at how veteran groups have responded to donald trump's statement about senator john mccain and his war record, taking -- this is jeremy peters writing that mr. trumpeted soft in words on monday when he told bolo riley -- when he told bill o'reilly that he had respect and he said if there was a misunderstanding, i would take that back. one of the first pieces of legislation that became law after republicans to go for congress this year.

that story in "the new york times" this morning. the author is jeremy peters. editing from california. democrat line. caller: hello. i just wanted to call in. the most children in poverty because he is percentages. it used the facts, the numbers -- i saw somewhere where 19 million of the children in poverty are white. i believe it was 13 million for hispanic and 11 million for black. that needs -- you need to talk about things according to numbers instead of percentages because there are more white people in the united states even though it does not look like it is in some places.

in you use actual numbers, you will find out that the blacks are not the ones that are the worst ones in poverty. host: rene is up next and she is from west chester, pennsylvania. caller: hi, i would like to speak about poverty with the children. someone made the statement earlier about women having a lot of children. look at the connection of women with drug problems. the drug problem in this country is really -- it affects the children. children born with all sorts of problems and these women that have -- iran across a woman who had eight children. she was in her 20's. of course, she had a drug problem and just pop them out. i believe there is also a connection there, unfortunately.

if you go around the country geographically, if you go to some areas, white poverty is higher, some black some latinos, asians depending on the part of the country. that is all i had to say. host: the private space contractor spacex is going forward with lance defend missions to the international space station in "the wall street journal." saint an unusual structural failure last week -- likely caused last month exposure.

mary from phoenix, arizona. sorry, wrong button. steve from phoenix, arizona. caller: good morning, how are you? host: fine, thank you. caller: thank you for c-span. i was noticing the child poverty rate and i saw that it seem like the hispanic people have more children in poverty than the black people. i was wondering people say, well, there are fewer jobs, but isn't that really more to the fact that employers are deciding to make people work for -- well not making the but offering whatever wages there are and a

lot of hispanic people are offered lower wages than other americans? host: we are going to leave it there. a hearing on the oversight of the administration's misdirected immigration policy. this is a hearing taking place in the senate judiciary committee on c-span. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] senator grassley: for the benefit of the audience and witnesses. generally, and in this case, too, senator feinstein is the ranking member for this hearing and she and i will make opening comments. then, we'll impto our first panel. this committee continues to honor its pledge to conduct oversight over the implementation of the laws congress has passed as well as the policies and practices of

the executive branch. today, we will focus on how this committee's immigration policies and practices are hurting american families. the committee will hear powerful testimony from a number of relatives who have lost loved ones as a direct result of the administration's failure to deport aliens or its tolerance of sanctuary policies. i'll begin by extending a special welcome to our witnesses, especially family members of victims. i hope you will accept our deepest sympathies for the losses each of you have suffered. thank you vutch for your willingness to share your stories -- you very much for your willingness to share your store us under difficult circumstances and to pay tribute to those, no longer with us in body, are surely with us in spirit.

today, we'll honor josh, kate, dennis, kenny, grant and many others whose lives were tragically cut short because of the administration's lax immigration policies. we had many families and relatives who wanted to testify today, but unfortunately we had to turn them away because we were limited in time and space. however, we welcome all testimony for the record and encourage them to commemorate their loved ones with stories written letters to this committee. we will examine the administration's policies from top down. we'll look at how federal benefits are being granted to deportable criminals by u.s. citizenship and immigration services while criminals are being released by u.s. immigration custom enforcement and how enforcement of the laws can be better achieved. we will look at how we can improve cooperation between

government agencies and we'll look into how we can improve cooperation between the federal government and state and local law enforcement agencies. after all, we all work for the same taxpayer, we ought to be cooperating. we'll look at sanctuary jurisdictions and try to understand why policies protect criminal aliens are in place. in the past few weeks, we have learned that there are thousands of detainers placed each year on federal agents -- by federal agents on undocumented immigrants with criminal records that are ignored. according to government data, between january and september 2014, there were 8,811 declined detainers in 276 counties, 43

states, including the district of columbia district of columbia. of the 8,811 declined detainers, 62% were associated with over 5,000 individuals who were previously charged or convicted of a crime or presented some other public safety concern. and nearly 1,900 of the released offenders were arrested for another crime after being released by sanctuary jurisdiction. this is obviously disturbing, not only to me but to most americans. there's no good rationale for noncooperation between federal level and state and local law enforcement. public safety is needlessly and recklessly put at risk when state and local officials provide sanctuary to law-abiding immigrants just to make a political point.

this administration in too many cases has learned a blind eye to enforcement, even releasing thousands of criminals at its own discretion many of whom have gone on to commit serious crimes, including murder. the administration has also granted deferred action to criminal aliens who have committed heinous crimes after receiving this relief from deportation. i have written to secretary johnson about four specific cases in which such individuals have received president obama's deferred action for childhood arivals, and that is referred to as daca, in this town. one of these beneficiaries was a known gang member when he applied and received daca. then went on to kill four people in north carolina. another daca recipient used his work authorization to gain employment at a popular youth camp in california where he was recently arrested for child

molestation and distribution of child pornography. i'm still waiting for responses on some of these cases. further, the administration's completely failed to do anything about sanctuary cities while -- all the while challenging states that took a more aggressive approach to enforcing immigration laws. i recently sent a letter to attorney general lynch and homeland security secretary johnson about sanctuary cities. i urge them to take control of the situation to ensure detainers are not ignored and undocumented individuals are safely transferred to federal custody and put into deportation proceedings. i implored them to take a more direct role in the matter and on those letters i have not received a response. but this isn't a new issue for this administration. i wrote to then-secretary

napolitano and then-attorney general holder in 2012 and asked them to intervene in cook county illinois, another sanctuary jurisdiction. nothing happened. in fact, since then the administration officials have publicly stated that they neither believed detainers have to be honored nor that they even want them to be mandatory. enforcing the immigration laws in this country is not a voluntary or trivial matter. real lives are at stake. things cannot continue this way. we are a nation based upon the rule of law, and if that rule of law isn't respected only chaos will succeed. that is why i'm introducing legislation today that will hold sanctuary jurisdictions accountable. it will require the executive branch to withhold certain federal fund fg they refuse to work with the federal government in transferring criminal aliens.

my bill will require them to cooperate on criminal aliens or risk losing law enforcement-related grants that are distributed by homeland security and d.o.j. my bill will also require mandatory minimum five-year prison sentence in addition to possible fine for individuals who enter the united states after having been deported. current law does not require prisoner time and caps to possible prison sentence at two years. my bill is aimed at individuals who ignore our laws time and again. no more people should die at the hands of those who break our laws just by being here. no more families should have to go through what these families and others have gone through. again, i'd like to thank our witnesses for taking the time to be with us today. your strength and determination to change the unacceptable status quo won't go unnoticed.

i will now turn to senator feinstein and after she does, i'll introduce the witnesses. fein fein thank you very much -- senator feinstein: thank you very much, chairman grassley. i want to say our ranking member, patrick leahy, would be here but there's an urgent family appointment that he had to keep this morning. and so i sit in in his stead, and i know this is a hearing that he very much would have wanted to have attended. yesterday, i had occasion to meet with the steinle family, and jim steinle is sitting front and center at the dock. and what i saw was a very hurt family but very resolute and very concerned about doing the right thing, whatever that may be in the case like this. so i want to voice my very clear sympathy and condolences to the family members that are hear today. i can't think of anything

that's harder to do than what you're going to do today and i think your strength in doing it is noted and very much appreciated. it is very clear to me that we have to improve cooperation between local, state and federal law enforcement. the overriding concern and a deep belief of mine is that convicted felons should not be removed from the country -- should be removed from the country but not released onto our streets. when immigration authorities ask that a state or local law enforcement agency notify them of an impending release of an alien with a serious felony record, that request should be honored. i strongly believe that local law enforcement should have notified the immigration authorities in the case of the accused murderer of kate steinle. the man who killed kate is a

classic case of the multiple felonies and prior deportations. and a simple phone call would have been enough. but that did not happen. in fact, the san francisco county sheriff adopted his own policy on march of 2015, just four months ago. the memo states, sfsd staff shall not provide the following information or ask access to i.c.e. representatives end quote. one of the items listed in the department's memo is, quote, release dates and times, end quote. in other words, the sheriff's department barred its own deaf utes from en-- deputies from informing i.c.e. about an individual's release date and time. that, i believe, is wrong. i believe it is not required by san francisco's ordinance as the mayor has made clear to the

sheriff in a letter dated july 14. and mr. chairman, i would like to put that letter in the record, if i may. senator grassley: without objection, so ordered. senator feinstein: i agree with the mayor, and to prevent a similar tragedy i hope and expect that my home state of california and the city of san francisco, in particular, will agree to take part in the department of homeland security priority enforcement program, known as p.e.p. this focuses on felons and others who are high priorities for removal from the country. under p.e.p., i.c.e. can request notification of an alien's release date from a state or local -- from state or local custody, and so that they would have the opportunity if the circumstances warranted to take custody of that individual

itself. in some instances, p.e.p. also allows for i.c.e. to lodge a detainer request with local law enforcement asking that they hold an alien for up to 48 hours. it seems to me that a simple notification to i.c.e. could have prevented kate steinle's death. i have urged mayor lee and the board of supervisors to participate in this new program, which the secretary announced late last year. this program prioritizes those who threaten our nation's national security. i'm pleased that mayor lee is taking this request seriously and is in the process of communicating with the department of homeland security about participating. we all know that most undocumented immigrants are otherwise law-abiding,

hardworking and just want to provide for their families. i believe that deeply, but that's not the element of the undocumented population we're talking about today. i'm currently working on a bill as is our chairman and i think others in this committee that would require state and local law enforcement to notify immigration and customs enforcement of the impending release from a detention center of an illegal alien who has previously been convicted of a felony. if i.c.e. requests such notification. this bill is a work in progress, and mr. chairman, i look forward to hearing the testimony today and to working with other members of this committee so that we might produce a bill that is worthy of consideration and passage. and i thank the chair. senator grassley: thank you, senator feinstein. our first witness, ms. susan

oliver ms. oliver is a widow of deputy danny oliver, a police officer in sacramento. danny was killed while on duty by an undocumented immigrant who was previously arrested on two separate occasions on drug-related charges and twice departed. ms. oliver has established a foundation in her husband's name to help kids in school. our second witness, ms. grace huang, she is public policy program coordinator for washington state coalition against domestic violence a nonprofit network of domestic violence founded in 1990. our third witness, mr. michael ronnebeck, he was shot down by

an undocumented immigrant. u.s. immigration and customs enforcement released grant's alleged murderer who was awaiting deportation. grant was born in iowa but resided in arizona and had two brothers and a sister. our fourth witness the reverend gabriel salguero. reverend salguero and his wife are the lead co-pastors of the lamb nazzzeen, new york, and also founder of the national latino evangelical could hings. and mr. jim steinle of pleasanton, california, the father of kate steinle, who was gunned down 20 days ago while walking on a pier in san francisco alongside this father. her alleged killer had seven prior felony convictions and

had been deported five times. sanchez was shielded by san francisco's sanctuary policy which allowed for his release in march despite an i.c.e. detainer placed on him. six person chief j. thomas manger. chief manger has been chief of police, montgomery county since february 2004. chief manger also serves as president of the major city of chiefs police association. our seventh witness is dr. brian mccaan. mr. mccaan's brother, dennis, was killed in 2011 by a drunk driver who was in the country illegally and driving without a license. u.s. immigration custom enforcement had placed a detainer on the drunk driver,

but he was released under cook county illinois, sanctuary city policies. our final witness, ms. laura wilkerson of pearland, texas she's the mother of josh wilkerson. josh was 18 years old when he was kidnapped and murdered by his high school classmates, an illegal immigrant after offering his classmate a ride from school. josh's murderer was sent to life in prison and will be eligible for parole in 30 years. i want to thank all of you for being here. as i expressed to you privately, our condolences i say so now publicly, you're very brave to come forward in testimony and we welcome that very much, and we'll start with ms. oliver. you -- i know you folks have been told about a four-minute

rule. the red light comes on. if you have a longer statement it will be put in the record. that doesn't mean just exactly when the red light will come on i'll gavel you down. please cut it short because this is a very important hearing. we want to get the witnesses in but the most important thing after you tell your stories is for us to hear from the administration and to question the administration. will you start, ms. oliver? ms. oliver: good morning. i just wanted to first state that i'm honored that the bill has been named after my husband, deputy oliver, as well as detective davis who were killed on october 24, 2014. over the past nine months, my life has changed dramatically because of the loss of my husband. sacramento county sheriff deputy danny oliver. danny oliver was a special person that knew that treating people with dignity and kindness resulted in stronger, healthier and safer communities and he worked every day to help make that a reality for

communities that needed it the most. as a 15-year veteran of sacramento county sheriff's office, danny oliver was not a man to boast or gloat of his professional accomplishments. in fact, when he was given a standing ovation at a community meeting he felt unsure how to deal with this overwhelming approval. danny felt he was doing his job and that was all that was needed to feel accomplishments. my husband's last shift with the sacramento chef's office ended by doing something he did countless times before in his career. he was policing his community and trying to make a difference. danny was a pop officer, problem oriented policing officer. his job was to identify possible community challenges and try to get ahead of them. he put himself into harm's way every day. on friday, october 24, 2014, my husband and father of two approached a car on his beat. but this time it was the last time.

the last thing my husband attempted to do as a pop officer was to ask the man inside the car how his day was going. but he never made it to the driver's window. at about 10:30 a.m., that man was in the country illegally and armed with numerous illegal weapons. he aimed one outside the car of a parking lot of motel 6 in sacramento and he opened fire. killing my husband with a shot to the forehead. i can honestly say that not a day goes by that this has not affected me. it may not be visible always. it may not be written in bold for all to see, it may not even be recognized but it's always in the background of my mind. sorry. sometimes daily. sometimes moment by moment as it should be. many people asked if i gotten past that terrible day and i say no. honestly i don't think i'll

ever get past that day. i lost the man i was married to for 25 years. each day i look for parental backup for rearing my child who's 12 years old and i fill that loss. each day my child meets milestones. recently my daughter got endaged and there will be a marriage he will not be at. there will be weekly family branches that we have held. i no longer have my husband by my side. i was with him since i him since i graduated high school 25 years ago and we watched each other grow up. we made careers together and we raised two children. we could just look at each other and know what we needed. perhaps it was support, a loving smile or even i'll talk to you when we get home look.this trust and understanding, but we had it mastered with ease. but because of the actions of one criminal this all ended on october 24. my life will never be the same. unlike law enforcement there

are few professions that consistently send our loved ones into harm's way. it's frightening, always knowing that each time they walk out the door it could be the last time you see them. at the same time not many professions consciously or intentionally give the order to take a life through the use of deadly force in order to protect others who can't protect themselves. an awesome responsibility that my husband understood clearly and this continues to be -- to create a lot of ongoing dialogue within communities throughout the country as we see a lack of -- as we see a lack of -- as we see a lack of continuity among law enforcement groups and communities that they serve. every single day law enforcement at the state, local and federal level put themselves, their loved ones, their communities that they serve at risk when they are forced to release criminals who are illegal, who pose a threat to community safety. all in violation of current laws that require deportation.

in just the last two years i.c.e. released back in the nation's streets 76,000 convicted criminals who are in this country illegally. there are 169 criminals in the united states who are here illegally right now. that means there are 169,000 people in our streets who have criminal convictions and were lawfully departed but who remain here to commit other crimes, to possible kill someone else's loved ones. the sanctuary cities have resulted in another 10,000 potentially deported illegal immigrant criminals being released by local law agencies since january of last year. and 121 of these criminals have been ordered deported in the last few years and yet were released by i.c.e. i have now -- and have now been charged with additional homicide offenses. the man that killed my husband,

danny oliver, was deported several times for various felonies before killing my husband on october 24, 2014. however, due to the lack of coordination between law enforcement agencies, he was allowed back into the country and in one day he committed another crime. only this time his illegal crime status impacted many in a direct and profound way when he shot and killed my husband. it would be remiss if i didn't also mention that it wasn't my -- it wasn't just my life that was changed that day. that same criminal eluded hundreds of officers from sacramento to auburn, california during a six-hour crime spee that left david michael jr. dead, a motorist in serious condition from a gunshot to the head. many lives changed on october 24. today, i honor my husband. sacramento county sheriff deputy danny oliver, and the other fallen heroes throughout this nation who are always with us in our hearts and in our memories. i wonder if i would even be here today talking to you about

my loss if the government -- if the government better enforced immigration laws. unfortunately, this is now my reality. thank you for hong danny and the others who have made the ultimate sacrifice. i hope by being here today and telling you about the grief my family has unnecessarily endured i can help save the life of someone else's friend, husband or father. i hope that my husband's death won't be in vain. i hope i can be here to make a difference. my life has changed and saddened. please put policies in place to make sure that criminal aliens who are in this country illegally are never allowed to dictate the life of a true humanitarian like my husband, deputy danny oliver. senator grassley: thank you, ms. oliver. ms. huang. hank hank thank you chairman -- ms. huang: thank you, chairman grassley and members of the committee. i'm grace huang, deeply honored

to be here regarding federal immigration enforcement on victims of domestic violence. a show of violence in our communities is challenging, complex and deeply emotional. as someone who worked for survivors of violent crime for over 20 years, i know how important important it is for people to feel that they can prevent future tragedies and i want to extend my heart felt condolences to the families here today. over the years, over the years in my work at the coalition i've had the honor to work with -- work in helping families make it -- work in the advocacy process in advancing effective policy solutions through and open and honest dialogue, i hope we can find solutions that make our communities safer for everyone. one crucial thing we can do is to build strong police and community relationships which means establishing an environment of trust. if witness doss not feel safe coming forward, the police cannot do their jobs and we are

all less safe. congress has affirmed that principle that immigrant victims and witnesses should feel safe to come forward by creating the u.v. suffer victims of crime in 2000 in the violence against women act which was recently re-authorized. i thank you all for everything you have done to make women in our communities as a whole more safe. i ask that you remember these lessons as you work to address this new challenge. as a victim advocate i'm deeply concerned that mandating local police cooperation with immigration enforcement will strengthen the hands of violent perpetrators helping them silence their victims and witnesses. i'm also concerned that vulnerable immigrant victims brave enough to step forward will face detention, separation from their children and swift deportation. this was what many communities encountered with the cure communities and the chilling affect it had on police community relations with both dramatic and counterproductive. one example of this chilling effect is the case of cecilia, she was sexually abused by a

family friend at the age of 5. her parents, who were undocumented, were terrified of reporting the crime to the police after having been told by friends and family that they would be reported to immigration if they stepped forward. a year later that same perpetrator sexually abused another child. in the end, after the father of that child contacted cecilia's parents, they went to the police together and the perpetrator was caught and all righted -- prosecuted but because of their initial fear to report, another child was harmed. when immigrants are afraid to come forward with information about a crime, the entire community is less safe. when reaching out to police to address domestic violence may end up in deportation, law enforcement is effectively removed as an option for safety, which has life-threatening impacts. for example, one client, maria, so distrusted the police that when her abuser tracked her down after she fled to another state she tried to call her lawyer instead of calling 911. it was midnight, he was pounding on the door and she was frantically calling over and over the closed office of

her attorney who was of course not at work. for maria the idea of calling the police was simply not an option that put her life in danger. imagine being so fearful that even though somebody is trying to break into your house you cannot turn to the police. as victim advocates, we're concerned that immigrant survivors are caught up in deportation cases when their demand for cooperation. it is not unusual for them to be deported. for example, in california, cindy, a taiwanese, was arrested and convicted of domestic violent crime charges and spent a month in jail. she bit her abuser when fighting him off while trying to rape her. although a jury -- the jury determined the force to defend herself was greater than the assault. was siddy was not automatically referred to i.c.e., she was

able to continue her studies, become a productively member of society. police policies limiting local police cooperation with i.c.e. may provide just enough respite for cindy for them to access the resources they need. we in the domestic advocacy field appreciate the work that congress has done to support a coordinated community response to domestic violence. proposals that are under consideration now to limit funds to so-called sanctuary cities will allow violent crimes to go uninvestigated and leave victims without redress. federal funding of law enforcement supports critical training equipment and staff that assist victims all over the country every day. without such funding there will be cases that go uninvestigated, protection orders that will not be served or enforced, rape kits that will not be tested the child abuse -- sexual abuse victims that will not have trained interviewers. these victims are not limited to immigrants. we recognize the fact there are victims, both with lawful

status and those without, that are harmed by some immigrants. we want -- we all want justice for victims and to prevent future crimes. we urge congress to proceed with measured, thoughtful policies in order to enhance the safety of all of our communities. thank you. mr. ronnebeck: good morning, distinguished committee committees. grant ronnebeck, a 21-year-old son, brother nephew and grandson, he was a bright young man with an infectious love of life. he had a positive outlook on life. grant had no enemies. he was a friendly, outgoing, loveable guy. as a 21-year-old american, he was just starting out in life, starting to realize his dreams, starting to follow his heart in matters of career choices and just discovering his life's opportunities. his desire was to work his way up into the job he loved working for the quick trip

corporation as he had for the previous five years or possibly later to become a member of the law enforcement community. he loved four-wheeling in the desert or around his home near mesa arizona, spending time with friends and family and watching the broncos play during the football season. he was a pretty typical young american man but to us he was a very special family and community member. at 4:00 a.m. on january 22 2015, just six months ago, while working the overnight shift at his quick trip store, grant assisted a man buying cigarettes. the man dumped a jar of coins on the counter and demanded those cigarettes. grant tried to explain that he needed to count the coins before he could give the man the cigarettes. the man pulled a gun and said you're not going to take my money and you're not going to give me my cigarettes. grant immediately offered up the cigarettes to the man who shot him point blank in the face killing him. seemingly unaffected, the man coldly and callously stepped

oufer grant's dying body, grabbed a couple packs of cigarettes and left the store. after a 30-minute high speed pursuit through the streets of mesa and arizona, the man was taken into custody. inside his car were the cigarettes and two handguns, one of which was believed to have been used to kill grant. the alleged murderer is an illegal alien. according to a news article dealing his 2012 arrest, he was a self-proclaimed member of the mexican mafia and says he has ties to the drug cartel. the news article states that in august of 2012, he was arrested with two others after kidnapping and sexually assaulting a woman and burglarizing her apartment. she was allegedly held naked and against her will for a full week prior to escaping. he took a plea deal and pled guilty to a charge of felony burglary for that incident.

he was sentenced to two years probation and turned over to the immigration and customs enforcement agency due to his undocumented status in the united states. he never served any time in custody related to that offense. i.c.e. immigration and customs ens forcement agency, released the now convicted felon on a $10,000 bond pending a deportation hearing. in the two years since then while awaiting his deportation hearing, he has had two orders of protection filed against him, including one from a woman who claimed he threatened to kill her and pointed a gun at her boyfriend. i.c.e. was reportedly notified about the protection order by a judge. he was still allowed to remain free in our country in addition to him i.c.e. reported they released 66,564 other criminal aliens back onto the streets of

our country in 2013 and 2014. and another 10,246 as of march 2015. this group included aliens convicted of violent and serious crimes, including homicide sexual assault, kidnapping and aggravated assault. at least 123 american citizens have been rekilled by these convicted aliens including my nephew, grant ronnebeck. there have been a number of immigration bills, among those, grant's law, for my nephew, kate's law, for kate steinle, the davis oliver act for law enforcement danny oliver and michael davis, and jemeil's law for jemeil shaw, all americans killed by illegal immigrants. each of these potential laws have a specific component that would help protect american lives. i ask that each of you give

consideration and priority to passing these important bills into laws. it is my family's greatest desire that grant ronnebeck's legacy will be more than a fading obituary, a cemetery plot or a fond memory. instead, we want grant's death to be a force for change and reform immigration policies of this great nation. in closing, i am asking you, our elected leaders scholars, lawyers to make these changes, to rise above your political differences, to set aside your personal interests and to use your resources to make sensible immigration reform a reality in the coming months with the safety and security of the american citizens first and foremost in mind. senator grassley: thank you, mr. ronnebeck. now, reverend salguero. revernd salguero: my name is

gabriel salguero. together with my wife, jeanette, i am the pastor of the multiethnic lamb's church of the nazarene, where immigrants, police officers whites, african-americans and nations worship together. i'm also the founder of the national latino evangelical coalition which represents are some of the eight million hispanic evangelicals living in the united states. i offer my sincere thanks to chairman grassley, ranking member feinstein and the other members of the committee. i'm honored to be here today. i want to begin by saying that i'm heart broken by the senseless violence and tragedy that we are discussing here today. i prayed and asked the lord to bless these families and provide grace and comfort to each family member here today. i could only imagine that every family member, friend and community member continues to reel from the shock, loss and grief at the remembrance of these lost loved ones. my prayers and sincere condolences go to each of you and your families.

nothing i can do here today will heal that grief, but your families will remain in my prayers. i pray for an end to violent acts such as these and i pray that those who would commit such acts face just consequences and redemption. i am here to speak about my belief that we should take care to ensure that while we work to prevent these tragedies from occurring in the future we do not harm entire communities in the process. faith organizations, including my evangelical community, have historically played a critical role in promoting community trust and providing safe haven to refugees, those fleeing violence and other immigrants facing daunting challenges of opportunity in the united states. i do not believe that these tragedies we discuss here today are the result of policies that seek to promote trust and cooperation with immigrant communities. the values of sanctuary churches in the united states are deeply rooted in safety,

family unity and trust. these values are critical in the promotion of healthy vibrant and nonviolent communities and they are the foundation of hundreds of communities across the country who have chosen to emgrace local law enforcement policies that foster and protect trust. these policies should be designed to prevent dangerous crimes, not encourage them. in the midst of our collected grief, i pray we avoid criminalizing or casting collective blame on entire communities for the actions committed by one or even a small number of individuals. in order to uphold our criminal justice system and ensure our communities feel safe enough to come forward and interact with law enforcement, cities across the united states need to work on their role in collaborating in an effort to ensure both survivors of both domestic violence, human trafficking and other serious crimes will

cooperate with law enforcement and come forward. if we fail to create smart policy that promote trust, victims and witnesses will remain silent due to their fear that they or their loved ones face deportation after seeking protection from the police. silence can create fear and expose all communities to greater risk. we as a nation should focus on solutions that will make our communities more integrated and, yes more safe. i believe that legislation targeting immigrant communities will just lead to more crime as it may silence many of the more than 11 million immigrants who will fear cooperation with police at the risk of deportation. i urge congress to resist politicizing the murders and the grief of these families with sweeping measures and to instead work with local communities and churches and others to ensure community safety. let's work together to reform our immigration laws. faith communities should work

to keep families safe, to keep families together and to keep children with their parents. faith communities should not permit our grief to turn us against each other or against entire communities. yes, our immigration system is broken and it needs reform, but we should not move forward with reactionary legislation that does not address the real issues at hand. the real solution to our immigration challenges is broad, just and humane immigration reform, which would place undocumented immigrants on an earned path to citizenship, get many people on the rolls that way we know who the criminals are and who isn't. allowing them also those hardworking immigrants to contribute to their families, communities and country. as a pastor, i want to avoid scapegoating entire communities by passing legislation that focuses solely on deportation and not on integrating hardworking families in the

united states. so let's work together to promote community safety. we can and should look at state and local policies carefully. i encourage communities to carefully tailor their policies to keep people safe. i encourage the federal government to carefully review its own policies and work with these localities across the country to ensure that our systems appropriately meet the goals of violence prevention against all community members. but i do not encourage us to force states and localities to pursue a one-size-fits-all policy. as we continue to mourn and pray for these families, let's work together to find real solutions that promotes peace and security, not fear and not collective punishment. i pray for an end to senseless acts of violence. i urge for every policymaker here and beyond to make rational and deliberate decisions. pray for reform that promotes thoughtful community safety policies, immigration integration and commonsense

comprehensive immigration reform. i pray for the comfort of each of the families speaking here today and those who are not here. and i thank you, again, for inviting me here today. senator grassley: reverend salguero. now, mr. steinle. mr. steinle: first of all, on behalf of my family, i'd like to thank the members of this committee for the honor to speak to you about our daughter kate. all children are special in their own way, and kate was special in the way she connected with people. we called it the kate effect. kate was a beautiful kind, happy, caring, loving and deep in faith. kate had a special soul a kind and giving heart, the most contidgeous laugh and the smile that would light up a room. kate loved to travel, spend

time with her friends and most of all spend time with her family. in fact the day she was killed we were walking arm in arm on pier 17 in san francisco and enjoying a wonderful day together. suddenly a shot rang out, kate fell and looked to me and said, help me, dad. those are the last words i will ever hear from my daughter. the day kate died she changed her facebook cover photo to a saying that said, whatever's good for your soul do it. that was true -- that truly describes kate's spirit. after graduating from california poly, she went to work for a title company and saved her money so she could see the world. she traveled to spain, thailand amsterdam dubai, south africa, just to mention a

few. she even met her way -- made her way to the slums of dubai india, to reach out to friends. she spent time with a woman's family and came back a changed person. everywhere kate went throughout the world she shined the light of a good citizen of the united states of america. unfortunately, due to disjointed laws and basic unconfidence on many levels, the u.s. has suffered a self-inflicted wound in the murder of our daughter by the hand of a person that should have never been on the streets of this country. i say this because the alleged murderer is an undocumented immigrant who has been convicted of seven felonies in the u.s. and already deported five times. yet, in march of this year he was released from jail and allowed to stay here freely because of those legal

loopholes. it's unbelievable to see so many innocent americans that have been killed by undocumented immigrant felons in recent years. in fact, we recently came across a statistic that says between 2010 and 2014 121 criminal aliens who had an active deportation case at the time of release were subsequently charged with homicide-related offenses. think about that. 121 times over the past four years an illegal immigrant with prior criminal convictions that later went on to be charged with murder when they should have been deported, that is one every 12 days. our family realized the complexity of immigration laws. however, we feel strongly that some legislation should be discussed enacted or changed to take these undocumented

immigrant felons off the streets for good. we would be proud to see kate's name associated with some of this new legislation. we feel if kate's law saves one daughter, one son, a mother, a father, kate's death won't be in vain. senator grassley: thank you, mr. steinle. now, chief manger. mankmank chairman grassley, thank you -- mr. manger: chairman grassley, thank you for giving me a chance to testify. i come here to represent the major chiefs association which represents the largest cities in the united states. as cops we see the good and the bad every day. we're witnesses to the immense benefits of immigration that immigration brings to our nation but we also see the sinister side. our priority in local law enforcement is exactly what i think you'd want and expect. the safety of our communities

across the nation and our priorities should be the prevention of crime and the protection of the public that we are sworn to serve and that's every resident of our community. in order to do our job local law enforcement has to have the trust and confidence of the communities that we serve. if we fail if the public or any segment of the public does not trust the police and will not come forward when we need them or when they need us. i want to talk about the major city chiefs association policy with regard to immigration. i want to start by making a statement. i want to be very clear. while we do not believe that local law enforcement should be saddled with the responsibility of immigration enforcement, we do believe that it is our duty to cooperate with i.c.e. in a manner that is consistent with our duty to protect the public. to this end, we've developed a policy which i think strikes the right balance and i'm

pleased to share some of the aspects of that policy this morning. first and forse most, federal -- immigration is enforcement is a federal responsibility. it is today and has always been. local agencies cannot be expected to take on these additional duties. secondly, we must secure our borders. immigration is a national issue and the federal government should first act to secure the national borders, preventing any further illegal entry into the united states. federal agents must consistently enforce existing laws prohibiting employers from hiring undocumented workers. we are united in our commitment to continue arresting anyone who violates criminal laws of our jurisdictions, regardless of their immigration status. those individuals who commit criminal ax will find no safe harbor or -- acts will find no safe harbor within any major city but will instead face the

full force of criminal prosecution. the decisions related to how law enforcement agencies allocate their resources, direct their work force and define their duties to best serve and protect their communities must be left to the control of local governments. the decision to have local police officers perform the functions and duties of immigration agents should be left to local government. this shall not be mandated or forced upon them by the federal government through the threat of sanctions or holding police assistance funding. the major chiefs supports the program that has been developed by the u.s. department of homeland security. d.h.s. listened to our concerns and they included us in the development of this new program that includes procedures for notification to i.c.e. by local police agencies. montgomery county, maryland, serves as an example of how the new program works well. while it's not our policy to inquire our investigate immigration status we provide

electronic notification to d.h.s. whenever we make an arrest. likewise, we provide notification if such person in our custody is to be released this is a modeled policy of major city chiefs and the modeled policy of montgomery county. local law enforcement is cooperating with d.h.s. through the know notification provide sess but not engaged in routine immigration enforcement. in our view this notification policy represents a balance that the judiciary committee should consider. with recognition of immigration enforcement as a federal responsibility, we ask the committee to resist initiatives that would seek to force routine aspects of federal responsibility upon local police. finally, regarding federal funding, federal assistance programs at the justice department and homeland security were established to strengthen criminal justice and domestic security, not to compel local agencies to perform federal duties. their purpose was to help local police and this was, not require we take over the job of federal agencies. it is right to call upon us for

actions to protect the public from crime and violence. but it's wrong to demand that we engage in matters we lated solely to immigration enforcement. by withholding federal funds to coerce performance of federal duties by local police. this is not why these programs were established. we welcome this dialogue and commit to our partnership with this committee. thank you. senator grassley: thank you, chief manger. and now mr. mccaan. mr. mccann: on behalf of the mccann family, i want to thank you, senator grassries, and other members of the committee, for this opportunity to share with you my efforts to return justice to our family after the violent death of my brother four years ago and about six weeks. denny was crossing on chicago's north side to visit with a client of his. he was a commercial insurance

broker. the restaurant was named el sid's and he and the owner would frequently dine together in the evening. as he was crossing a walk that was at the international marker, this kid chavez, came by drunk as a skunk and drug him for about a block and a half and killed him. he was charged with aggravated d.u.i. and two days later i.c.e. issued the detainer, a bunch of us, family -- i guess a week later for the arraignment and they assured us -- see, i didn't know anything about detainers. they assured the federal government had these holes with detainers and no way would he be able to post bond and leave. his bond was, what $250,000. so we were comforted -- if you use that word -- that he would

be prosecuted and few people in the neighborhood wanted a -- a retired judge said he'd get six to eight years. that's some measure of comfort that we were assured of. well unbeknownst to us that summer members of the cook county board -- cook county, they're the administrators of justice in my hometown, chicago, they worked tirelessly without my -- my knowledge -- we have this witness -- witness notification system in illinois that's in the constitution. well nobody notified me what they were doing. and they ran through an ordinance after the august recess in september without going to committee. now, you all know how important committee work is. well, cook county apparently didn't in this case and got it passed 10-5. well, we weren't notified of

that. nor was the prosecutor. she wasn't aware of this. somehow there is this lack of communication. the county passes this very important ordinance and they don't even tell the 400, 500 assistant state attorneys. the lady was prosecuting my brother's killer was never notified. so here i am sitting at home the day -- sunday before thanksgiving and i get a recorded message from some kid at the jail and said that chavez left. he posted bond and ran. and who do i call on a sunday? nobody's working. i couldn't get a hold of the prosecutor. so i got a hold of my niece who was a deputy sheriff in the county and she verified he in fact did get released but i wasn't able to call the prosecutor until the next day. well, she immediately runs to her supervisor and they sent out a couple of cops to look for him. he's gone. the brother said that he never sees him and that he lives in the basement.

there are a bunch of lies everywhere. so anyhow, long story short -- we also learned -- and i failed to mention, this kid was prosecuted for a prior felony two years earlier and he was put on probation. and i.c.e. was never notified because secured communities i guess had gotten off the ground in 2008 or something and so the notification -- the system the police use electronic system, was -- i'm going way over time here. so anyhow, long story short, we've been fighting for the last couple of years. we have a law enforcement pending, judicial watch is -- has helped us. we worked with the prior i.c.e. guy, morton. he was very helpful. and it's just been a pathetic

mischaracter of justice upon my family and hundreds of families across the country. i'm glad that you were able to spend time listening to this. all eyes are on both the senate and the house judiciary committee. i'm convinced this is where resolution rests. the sanctuary jurisdictions are going to get away literally with murder passing these policies and you guys got to do it. and i regret that my senator had to leave and couldn't hear my testimony. but maybe i'll talk to him later. all right. thanks. senator grassley: thank you, mr. mccaan. and ms. wilkerson. ms. wilkerson: thank you for allowing me to tell the story of my son, josh, and his murder. my son's name was named joshua wilkerson, in 2010, he was beaten strangled, tortured until he died.

he was tied up, thrown in a field and set on fire. his killer, hermillo morales, was brought here illegally by his illegal parents when he was 10 years old so he fit the dream kid description. he was sentenced to life in prison which means it will be 30 years until he will be up for parole. he will be a 49-year-old man who i don't expect to be deported and i just hope he doesn't come to live in your city. we had to hear this kid from the stand muttering about in my country in my country never to finish that sentence. he went on to tell -- we listened to tell us repeatedly that his killing skills took over, that josh had kicked his dog, his killing skills took over. his parents somehow managed to provide lessons that he acquired so he acquired a black belt in mixed martial arts.

joshua had never been in a fight in his life, very quiet, old soul. he didn't speak a lot but when he did you listened to him. like i said, he never been in a fight in his life but somehow the killing skills were the martial arts his parents gave to him. we got an autopsy report that reads in part -- this body is received in a gray body bag. there's a tag on his toe that bears the name joshua wilkerson. he is he's a white male weighing 100 pound, he's tied up with braided rope, 13 loops around his neck with a slip knot. it goes behind his back during his back belt loop, it goes to his hands and his feet, behind his body. he has multiple fractures in his face.

and nasal calfity. his throat and his voice box are crushed. he was kicked so hard in the stomach that it sent his spleen into his spine and sliced it into two. it was painful. the medical examiner said it was torture. this body has significant sin scoss -- loss on his buttocks, abdomen, penis hands and his face. he has one stick of gum and a tardy slip in his pocket. this was our family's 9-1-1 terrorist attack by foreign invader whether you want to recognize it or whether you do not. this government continues to fail or even recognize that we have an issue. americans are dying daily at the hands of criminals that we don't

even know are here. you are officially notified today there is a problem when this happens. you can't deny it any longer. you can't ignore our families, our american families. you are elected by americans not any other country. you should be for americans. if you want to sit quietly on the sidelines, you have thrown your hat into the ring already. your silence speaks volumes. you're either for americans or you're not. i will not give up control -- another one of my children so that a foreign person can have a nicer life. i'm note going to do t you don't understand the pain. it's so deep in the soul in the place that you don't even recognize you have. there aren't words to describe the pain to someone who has gone through it.

i'm not giving up another kid. thanks for city policy screamed to the criminal element of all illegals in this contry, there is a criminal element, it screams to them come to our town u.s.a. we'll protect you from our terrible policemen, we'll protect you from these tough american laws that you, because you had a hard life are not able to go through the same motions that an american did. they are buying into that fact. it's going to take another life lost by senator congressman, the president, even another of today's heroes, someone from hollywood, before someone in a position moves on this. i urge you you're in a position to do something about this for americans. i thank you to mr. trump for getting a message out about the nation in two minutes that for 4 1/2 years solidly maria espinoza

at the remembrance project and countless families like my own have been trying to say for five to six years. it feels good to be heard, whether you love him or whether you don't, i felt heard. our family is shattered. it's shattered. it will never be the same. we'll manage. we'll go on. we function. we put on a happy face. my kids have changed. the surviving kids. everything about us has changed. it's by the grace of god that in our broken hearts we have a stream of memories of the loving relationship that we had with joshua. joshua had a very deep, intense spiritual relationship, leaving us four, five scriptures in the weeks before he died. i'm ok with where josh is at today. i don't -- it's not just about missing josh. it's about what you're doing to the entire family. not just our immediate family. his friends. the teachers, the community, our

extended family. it's incredible. i can't even explain it to you. america lost that day. you lost a good citizen that was on the brink of becoming who knows what? he mentioned going into the air force like his older brother who had to come home for two weeks and bury -- was out defending this country americans, and we had to bring him home for two weeks to bury his little brother when he wasn't being defended right here at home. it's absurd to me. thank you for your time. i do want to say, too, just a little bit of rebuttal about they are not scared to come here. we are inviting them. sanctuary cities say come on down. you can have a pass in our states. you're tying policemen's hands. i'm not mandating to ask them where they are from. but if they pull somebody over for reason, valid cause, and they are investigate veggetting them for something they have a right to ask them. they have a right to ask me something on the freeway, where

are you going where are you coming from? do you have drugs? i'm going to answer those. in 15 minutes it will come out in the wash i'm ok to leave. why are you creating a last of people who seem to say we can't do that. they are not afraid to come here. they are not afraid to traipse across the desert. i have been to the border. i stood there with border agents and watched them come across from jet skis. i will finish quickly. sympathy has never trumped a law in this country, ever. you sympathize with me. can i go break a federal law? anyone? anyone here like to let me do that? every one of them here threaten national security because we don't know who they are. so they are a threat. we don't know who -- they make a decision to come here. they are not scared. they are invited by sanctuary city policies. they are not scared to stand in line for a handout that every american here has paid into the system for our children.

if need be. they mistrust police because they come from countries that mistrust police. they are not scared here. i want you to know that our family is broken forever. we are forever broken. thank you. i thank you for your time. i don't want the sympathy. i want you to do something about it. everybody sitting here is in a position to do something. just throw your hat into the ring for americans. quit sitting silent because it's going to help you get a vote. throw your hat into the ring and take care of american families. thank you. >> thank you. senator grassley: personal thank you -- first of all thank you

for your testimony. i heard frustration. and anger. about our immigration policies. we can learn a lot from you about how our immigration system needs fixed. and for me that starts with border security. can i ask my members, because we are here for oversight of the administration. how many of you have questions that you want to ask of this panel? if none of you want to ask questions of this panel then i will dismiss them after thanking them. thank you-all very much for coming and lending your expertise to this hearing. i'll call the next panel.

senator grassley: could we have order. today's hearing deals with a very special issue. i trust that members of the public here will act accordingly

. i want to note at the outset that the rules of the senate prohibit outbursts, clapping and demonstration of any kind. this includes blocking the view of people around you. please be mindful of those rules. as we conduct a hearing. if it isn't abided by, i would have to ask the capitol police to remove anyone who violates the rules. senator grassley: before our next panel's seated, i would like -- i would ask ms. saldana

and mr. rose, would you come, please. before i introduce i would like to ask you to affirm. do you affirm that the testimony you're about to give before the committee will be the truth the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god. thank you very much. leon rodriguez is director of u.s. citizenship and immigration services. he was confirmed by the senate on june 24, 2014. director rodriguez was born in brooklyn new york. graduated from brown university and earned j.d. degree juries doctorate degree from boston college. sara saldana is assistant secretary for u.s. immigration custom enforcement. she was confirmed by the senate december 16, last year.

she's born in corpus christi, texas. graduated from texas a and i university and received her juries doctorate from southern methodist university. director rodriguez, would you please begin. and then we'll call the other director. director rodriguez: thank you, chairman. thank you, ranking member thank you members of the committee. in august of 1988 i was sworn in as an assistant district attorney in brooklyn, new york. kings county, new york. at the time i was sworn in, new york city like many other large jurisdictions throughout the country, was witnessing unprecedented crime rates. high homicide rates, high sexual assault rates high robbery rates, high narcotics trafficking rates. it was into this environment that i started as a young 26-year-old prosecutor. among my assignments as an

assistant district attorney were homicide investigations, sex crime special victims prosecutions organized crime investigations and prosecutions. during my tenure as an assistant district attorney, i sat by the side of many hundreds of victims of violent crime, family members of victims of violent crime including homicides. i witnessed the same kind of grief without limit that i saw among the crime victims' families that you saw here this morning. i witnessed the sense of profound injustice that was felt by those families. i did everything i could as an assistant district attorney to honor the oath that i had taken in august of 1988 and have frequently remembered throughout my many years of government

service frequently remembered and felt the grief and sense of injustice that i saw in those years. in brooklyn, new york. i learned another lesson as an assistant district attorney and that has been in law enforcement one size does not fit all. one size fits all is the surest way to let violent criminals go free to let the worst crimes go unaddressed. it is for that reason that there are homicide detect yifts who specialize in homicide. those detectives are not asked to go and arrest the individuals who jump the turnstile at the subway. the daca program the deferred action for childhood arrivals program, provides a way to take young people who came to this country not of their own volition, but were brought by

their parents. it takes such young people who have not been convicted of a criminal offense who do not present a threat to national security who are not members of gangs, and while they are pursuing a course of study or have pursued a course of study, and does nothing more than to delay their deportation and to offer them work authorization. let me be clear about one of the points i made here. those individuals are not supposed to have committed and been convicted of a prior felony , significant misdemeanors, or multiple misdemeanors, and they may not be or have been a member of a gang. now, several of you are well aware there were situations in my agency where that policy was not understood.

and as a result in a small number of cases, approximately 20 individuals who were identified in law enforcement databases as gang members were afforded deferred action nonetheless. that is unacceptable. we took decisive steps to correct our procedures, to retrain our staff to ensure that that bedrock requirement of the deferred action for childhood arrivals program was fully understood. as a result, a number of those individuals have had their deferred action terminated. in a small number of cases we determined that the individuals actually were not gang members at all after thorough investigation. but you have my pledge that we will conduct our business at uscis, u.s. citizenship and immigration service, in a way that prevents gang members from

ever receiving deferred action. now, having said that i realize the topics that we are here to talk about are important and grave ones and i look forward to what i think is the very important dialogue that the chairman, you have convened today. senator ghastly: thank you, mr. rodriguez. ms. saldana. secretary saldana: thank you, senator grassley, ranking member feinstein, and other members of this distinguished committee. like you-all and everyone in this country i am greatly moved by the stories i heard this morning anti-tragedy that is have occurred and the pain, the very palpable pain that's been inflicted on the families that we heard from today. to them i say i am so sorry for the loss each of you has experienced and i know many of you have shared those condolences as well. and i say that not only as a director of immigration and customs enforcement, but i say it as a mother, a sister, an

aunt, and a grandmother, one of my grandchildren being here today with me. i can only imagine what such a loss be like. and i want to say that over -- for over a decade first as a prosecutor then as a united states attorney for north texas and now as the head of immigration and custom enforcement, the largest law enforcement agency in the department of homeland security i am committed to do all i can to prevent violent crime. i have been and i continue today to do so. i consider myself a law enforcement officer and have for several years. and while the things we did as prosecutors will not bring back the victims of any violent crime, there is some very small solace that i gained, at least in bringing the perpetrators to justice. and i'm very proud of that work.

as you know, the men and women of i.c.e. play an integral role in public safety and national security. tragic situations like the ones that the family members find themselves in are demrorable and highlight the need to -- deplorable and highlight the need to continue our work to focus on the apprehension and removal of convicted criminals who pose the greatest threat to public safety and national security. this is exactly what our priority enforcement program is designed to do. we spent months talking with all kinds of people from all of the stakeholders that are interested in our program in designing it. and our objective is to take custody of dangerous individuals before they commit further crimes. and before the release into the community. as has been said before, it's not a one size fits all. we have been working across the country to bring people to the table to work with them to reach

the -- their communities and the needs of the communities when it comes to public safety. just as senator feinstein has done in san francisco, i am asking for the help of each one of you and those other members of the entire senate to assist us in this effort to try to have jurisdictions who have not cooperated with us in the past to start doing so now. now. and i urge you quite frankly, as part of all that to help with respect to a comprehensive change to immigration law. it is complex it is broken, this is the -- these are the statutes and codes of regulations that our folks have to deal with every day. and it is -- i implore your help in that regard. secretary johnson has made it clear that our borders are not opened to illegal migration. as such, i.c.e. through our enforcement and removal operations direct trat e.r.o.,

is dedicating our resources towards the removal of individuals considered enforcement priorities. we are making some progress. along the southwest border this year apprehensions are 110 thousand. that i see as as significant. 34% from last year at this time. i likewise our interior enforcement efforts are also paying off. of those people detained in our detention centers, 96% of them meet our top two priorities. 76% of them,p 6% of them -- of them, 76% of them pete our top priority. i believe our people are doing a good thing and focusing where they should be with respect to these criminals. you know the enforcement work and the investigative work that our other side of the house does, homeland security investigations. very fine work with respect to transnational crime with very

good results. one in particular i want to point out with respect to gang enforcement. we have an operation recently called operations all fire which netted 32,000 criminal arrests. and 1,000 gang members in that particular group. some charged with criminal offenses. of thousands 1,000 913. and it is very meaningful work as well. i do know we are going to focus on the enforcement and removal side and i stand ready to take any questions of this committee. senator grassley: i thank both of you very much for being here. most importantly i want to thank you for coming and listening to the testimony of the first panel. i'm going to ask questions then senator feinstein will and then because the finance committee's meeting on taxes upstairs, i'm going to have to turn over the

meeting to senator sessions, if he'll do that, please. start with you, mr. rodriguez. you said that certain actions of people in your department was unacceptable in regard to daca. and that -- so a natural follow-up of that is somebody didn't do their job right in this particular case, somebody probably didn't do their job right and we know that people have died as a result of it. so then if it's unacceptable, who's been fired or disciplined for providing daca to gang members? director rodriguez: senator, there was action taken to correct and counsel individuals who did not understand back in 2013. the proper manner in which to

utilize the text database which is the law enforcement database that identifies an individual as gang members. we have undertaken extensive efforts to ensure that both the policy that very clearly excludes gang members from deferred action and the processes of our agency are fully understood. i would also add that we have run the entire population of deferred action daca recipients back through the text database to identify all those instances where gang membership was not handled appropriately by our officers. so there has been counseling in appropriate instances. senator grassley: since there were 323, home were -- how many were changed after review? director rodriguez: as i

indicated, of the nearly 700,000 daca recipients, we identified 20 cases in which an indication of gang membership appeared in the law enforcement databases for individuals who had previously received deferred action. eight of those individuals have already been terminated. others have been turned over to i.c.e. for appropriate handling. several others continue to be adjudicated. in a few cases we actually determined that notwithstanding the identification as gang members in the database, they were not after investigation gang members. senator grassley: what process, if any, do you have in your agency in place to learn about daca's recipients' criminal activity in order to immediately terminate the benefit? director rodriguez: we obviously have ongoing contacts and discussion above all with i.c.e.

we are notified in situations where individuals have either been convicted of a crime or were -- where information is discovered that they are gang members when we receive that ngs information we act on it. we are also in the middle of the daca renewal process right now. some individuals have been identified as being gang members during the course of that process and of course have been denied renewal and other appropriation action taken. senator grassley: does the agency require an interview in every daca applicant who has a criminal record? director rodriguez: we do interviews in those cases where in order to resolve an outstanding issue, for example one related to either criminality or gang membership, we do use -- utilize interviews in those cases to resolve those concerns. senator grassley: ms. saldana,

you told the house you supported mandatory detainers. the following day you changed your position. sanctuary cities as you have heard today do very little to protect the public safety. they are in place free throw text certain groups of lawbreakers but there are real consequences. can you tell the family members here today including the steinly -- steinle family, that you don't think state and law enforcement officials should have to abide by detainers of criminal aliens? secretary saldana: i'm not going to say that, senator grassley. what i am going to say is that we are working very hard, very hard with respect to a whole host -- there are about 200 last time i checked of jurisdictions, when i say jurisdictions i'm talking about counties cities, all over the country, who have declined to cooperate with us in the past. as the secretary testified last week, senator, we are making

some progress. we have actually identified the top almost 50 jurisdictions that we have had little progress in the past couple of -- in the past couple of several months, and we are going -- going and meeting with those local officials to try to engage them in why the p.e.p. program is actually different from their experience was with secure communities. you heard from some of the witnesses this morning that there is some fear out there and some concerns about even the impact on local law enforcement if they -- if there is a feeling of distrust between a community and law enforcement. my answer, the question to me was, would it be helpful? it clarity is always helpful to law enforcement. but what i would like to do since we just rolled out this program, we have been working on the design and implementation of

it for months, we just rolled out this program, i want us to be given a chance to work with folks. as u.s. attorney my whole existence relied on relationships with state and local law enforcement. i had to work with sheriffs d.a.'s all across north texas to try to get them to work with us. and it's a mutual cooperation. they help us and we help them. and i'd like to continue those efforts. senator grassley: can you admit yes or no, that sanctuary cities pose a problem to public safety? secretary saldana: i don't know exactly what sanctuary cities definition is, i do know and i have said this in the past sir so has the secretary, that not cooperating with us does expose our officers to greater risks because now they have to go out at large and try to recover some of these convicted criminals. and it's a resource expenditure

much greater than it would be if we could just get these people from the jails directly into our custody and through the process. senator grassley: senator feinstein. senator feinstein: thank you very much, mr. chairman. let me thank the two witnesses and the very moving witnesses we heard in the prior panel. i would like to put in the record the record of lopez sanchez because you see the felonies and you see the number of deportations and you really see the failure of the system. so the question really comes what to do about it. it's clear to me this man who was convicted and served time in more than one state, deported five times, kept coming back, and this is how it ended.

it shouldn't happen that way. and maybe the price on deportation is too low. because it doesn't seem to be a deterrent at all, at least in this case. mr. ronnebeck said the following. i.c.e. reported that they release 66,564 other criminal aliens back on to the streets of our country in 2013 and 2014 and another 10,246 as of march, 2015. this group included aliens convicted of violent and serious crimes, including homicide, sexual assault kidnapping, and aggravated assault. then it goes on and says 123 americans had been murdered by one of those released criminal aliens. including mr. ronnebeck's nephew. are those numbers correct?

secretary saldana: they are. senator feinstein: ok. then how does it happen that of those numb numbers an additional 123 americans have been murdered them? secretary saldana: how is it that happened? or how is it -- senator feinstein: yes. it seems to me that we've got one size fits all that you do for the worst felon what you do for someone without that kind of record. secretary saldana: and you really struck on the heart of our efforts in talking to jurisdictions who have not been working with us in the recent past. we try to tell them, work with us. let's look at your statutes. let's look at what you passed. and let's see if, one, we have to urge you to try to tweak it, or, two, if we can work within it in whatever ordinance, or legislation there is. i truly believe in my heart of hearts that we can bring reasonable minds to the table to

work -- that's why we talk about one size not fitting all. it's because we are trying to accommodate the needs of the communities that are so different. west coast, north and south. i come from texas, our problems there are not the same as the problems in california or new york or in the heartland. that's one of the beauties of p.e.p. again, i need local -- senator feinstein: let me ask you what should happen to somebody convicted of seven felonies in this country in a number of different states and someone who has been deported five times and comes back to eventually commit a heinous crime? what should -- how should that be prevented? secretary saldana: my belief is in developing those relationships, in communication here. there was a three-way law enforcement communication.

the bureau of prisons. and immigration and customs enforcement. i'm doing all i can to try to -- look into and we actually have directed my senior staff to start opening doors and there have been conversations already with the bureau of prisons which is overseen by my department to try to talk about at least with respect to federal agency to federal agency what we can do better. i invite your thoughts. senator feinstein: one last question. supposing the sheriff did consult with you the city did consult with you. the record is still there. seven felonies, five deportations, and he came back and he's tried a number of different states and managed to commit felonies there, too. what would happen to them? what would you do with him? secretary saldana: we would probably with someone with that kind of a record, we would, if he came into our custody, present him to the u.s. attorneys' office for

prosecution. senator feinstein: on what? secretary saldana: illegal re-entry. there are escalating punishments if you have, depending on your criminal record. we can do that. right now it's up to 20 years depending on the nature of the person's background. senator feinstein: are there cases where you have done that? secretary saldana: oh, yes. senator feinstein: can you tell me approximately how many where somebody with multiple deportations and multiple felonies actually goes, based on the last deportation, to jail, to federal prison or a long time? secretary saldana: we present presented in every occasion that those facts arise. unfortunately, the prosecution decision isn't up to us. it's up to the u.s. attorney's office. they have their own priorities. i can't quibble with that. we do present it every time we see those facts. senator feinstein: there are members here who have bills that would like to put a minimum sentence on deportation that's violated. in other words, the individual

comes back. what do you think of that? secretary saldana: i've got to start with, quite frankly, i would like rather than a piecemeal approach to this tremendous problem a more comprehensive approach to reform. but if we are just looking at that i'd like to take a look at that language and what the statute provides. this fellow in this case served several sentences for illegal re-entry and substantial, the average sentence is 18 months to two years n this case we have 36 56, 46 months this individual served. obviously it did not deter him. senator feinstein: right. my time is up. i will put in the record two different copies of the criminal record mr. lopez sanchez. senator sessions. senator session: thank you, senator feinstein. and you made some important points.

i would note that san francisco proudly calls itself a sanctuary city. they are not hiding it. they are proud of it. they directed their police chiefs and police officers to act in that accord, too. we are focused, i think, more today on the sheriff's department who even the mayor has concluded acted improperly. i would offer for the record a letter just a week ago on behalf of the san francisco deputy sheriffs that work for the sheriff there and that letter to the sheriff says this, as evidence by the tragic death of kate stein --le -- steinle on july 1 to coordinate much less cooperate with forle law enforcement agencies, recklessly compromises the safety of sworn personnel, citizens, and those who merely come to san francisco area. this association hereby demands

the department immediately rescind the directives and comply with the statutory and contractual obligations to meet and confer in good faith. they go over, say moreover it is the association's sincere belief that any changes that the department might pursue should honor ms. steinle's life by directing the department's flawed philosophy so the people of san francisco citizens, visitors employees alike are safer in the future. ms. saldana, you are a in charge of filing these detainers and dealing with these issues, do you agree with that letter from the deputy sheriffs of san francisco? secretary saldana: i would agree with the essence of what's requested. let's do what we -- senator feinstein: could you put on the microphone. secretary saldana: let's get coomings, let's do all -- cooperation. let's do all we can because we are all in the same business.

senator sessions: you're exactly right. this is all about protecting public safety. isn't it a fact, ms. saldana everybody who would like to come to the united states is not entitled to be admitted on their demand? secretary saldana: that's why we have these statutes. senator sessions: make evaluations on people. if they get here legally or illegally and evidence dangerous tendencies they can be deported? secretary saldana: that's certainly laid out in the statute. senator sessions: that's required in certain instances by the statute. said they shall be deporded. secretary saldana: yes sir. senator sessions: i think we have a serious problem here and i believe it's directly from the top of this administration and i believe you have been directed to carry out administration policies. when you are asked about the sanctuary city reform, senator grassley said, you said absolutely, amen. and the next day did you have a conversation with someone and decided to change your statement on that?

secretary saldana: as i said before senator truly, my response was a straight out law enforcement response. what i did the next day was to clarify. i am not going against what we have, all our efforts in establishing and now implementing the p.e.p. program. we want to work with those jurisdictions. that's what i have always done is try to set up relationships with -- senator sessions: i agree. united states attorney, you gave a law enforcement response. which is this is unacceptable. every jurisdiction in america that i know of participates in a detainer policy that honors detainers from other jurisdictions. they don't ask whether the case is a good case or not. they don't retry the case. united states, federal, state, or local jurisdictions places a detainer hold on a prisoner that's honored. isn't it historic and really

unbelievable act that major cities in this country are refusing to comply with that basic requirement of law enforcement? secretary saldana: this is why i needed the next day to clarify sir, that, yes, we need to get there. but we've got this program that we are about to roll out and it's all hands on deck. we can't afford not to work together in this area. senator sessions: what if they don't cooperate? what if they just refuse as they refused before? didn't your predecessor call on chicago, cook county, to stop its sanctuary policies? secretary saldana: i'm sorry sir. i wasn't following that. senator sessions: he made a clear statement about it. and it was a call on them to change. now the administration apparently has changed and stopped pushing it. and now after this -- these events that have achieved so much publicity you're beginning to talk about it again. mr. rodriguez you represent the

citizens on immigration services. your counsel president -- council president has made a series of statements, he's a head official, saying, quote uscic adjudications officers are pressured to rubber stamp applications instead of conducting diligent case review and investigation. the culture at uscis encourages all applications to be approved, discouraging proper investigation into red flags and discouraging the denial of any applications uscis has turned into an approval machine. he goes on to say uscis officers who identify illegal aliens that in accordance with law should be placed into immigration removal proceedings before a federal judge or prevented from exercising their authority and responsibility. goes on to say, ms. saldana, the

i.c.e. officers' morale is reported to be the lowest in the entire federal government. they file a lawsuit against your predecessor, the office association did claiming that they are being ordered to violate their oath to enforce the law. what actions have you taken to end this and create and meet with the officers to create a system in which they are encouraged to follow the law not inviolate the law? secretary saldana: i listen, senator. i have been to several of our offices across the country. i wish i had time to do all of them in my first year on the job. but i do go and i do listen. i meet with union officers. i meet with employees top to bottom. we discuss what our mission is.

and how it's so important and how common sensical it is to focus on the most heinous crimes convicted criminals. i get a very good response. so i -- by the way, i may not be a named defendant in that lawsuit, i think i have been replaced. i take those allegations seriously and i work with our employees across the country to discuss it. senator sessions: i never seen the kind of morale problems that i see from the statement to you, mr. rodriguez and your official actions. and you, ms. saldana, and your predecessor. this is not healthy. it's very bad. and it's a product of the trends we are seeing of nonenforcement rather than enforcement. senator feinstein: senator durbin is not here -- excuse me

senator schumer is not here, senator durbin is here. i call on him. senator durbin: thank you very much madam chair. first, i was not able to stay at the hearing for brian mccann's testimony. brian mccann is from chicago. i agreed to speak at a alzheimer's association research meeting. came back, got him on the phone. we are working with him through the f.b.i. to try to help bring this fugitive to justice who is responsible for this terrible tragedy in his family. i want to put that on the record. let me see if i could put some perspective on this for a minute. there seem to be two or three basic elements here that we ought to keep in mind. first is the belief of local law enforcement that if they are called on to enforce status crimes, that is persons who are here undocumented, that it could infringe on their ability to maintain order in a community. every time a police car drove by folks in a certain neighborhood thought they are working for

undoimented people, those folks are less likely to step up and cooperate with police to find real wrongdoers, real criminals so that they would be brought to justice. that seems to be a starting point i have heard over and over again. ms. sail dana. secretary saldana: i agree. i heard it also because i met with quite a few officials. and they have a tough job. we all have a tough job. i recognize those arguments. one jurisdiction oregon has been sued and other jurisdictions, and in these days of tough financial budgets i can understand why people are concerned about being exposed to constitutional challenges like they have been in some of the laws. senator durbin: what the president has proposed in daca, referring to young people, dreamers who were brought here as children and undocumented, and dapa for those millions here here undocumented, working,

raising families and such, in both instances the president has insisted that there be a criminal background check before they are even given a temporary a temporary permission to stay to either live, go to school, or work. is that not true? secretary saldana: certainly. and my colleague director, can seek more clearly to this. yes, that is my understanding. senator dush indiana: director rodriguez, of the 680,000 who have successfully applied for daca status, dream -- dreamers, who were able to stay, of that number i am told roughly 323, about one half of one percent have -- either engaged in crime or had a criminal record to the point where they were disqualified from the daca program. director rodriguez: that is correct. most of those were as a result of criminal convictions, some of them were because of information

received that they either were gang members or presented threats to national security. senator durbin: they were disqualified from the program. director rodriguez: correct. i would cite that as an instance where we did not rubber stamp. as my union head suggested. we certainly dug into those. senator durbin: and the president's proposal when it comes to the millions undoimented, they, too, will not only be subjected to background check before they are eligible to stay and work on a temporary basis, they are subject to review every time that permit comes up to see if they committed a crime, is that not true? director rodriguez: that is correct, senator. it is a multistep process. biographic and biometric checks that are conducted on all such individuals to eliminate criminals, eliminate threats to our national security eliminate gang members from access -- senator durbin: on both these programs, daca and papa, there's been general opposition on the other side of the aisle.

what the president has proposed for regular criminal background checks about these people living undocumented america, has been resisted. that's been a starting point in each of these proposal. yesterday i spoke to jeh johnson, secretary of homeland security, he just visited in chicago to meet with some of our political leaders to talk about the specific issue that brings us here today. what do we do about those who are convicted of crimes and also undocumented? and they are working now to come to an aagreement threw the p.e.p. program there be an understanding certain levels of crime will result in reporting. they have not reached an agreement. don't get me wrong. but they are moving in that direction. can you explain to me the difference between a civil detainer and criminal detainer and whether that is significant to our conversation here? director rodriguez: senator, i think i'm a little -- i do have some insight into those distongueses -- distinctions based on prior positions i have held as a federal prosecutor and

also county attorney, but given it's director saldana's portfolio i may defer to her. secretary saldana: yes. quite frankly i'm not familiar with the distinction that way. more importantly it seems to me when there is a criminal case that's been presented to the united states attorney, they have accepted it, there will be a criminal warrant and a detainer notice sent to the person is in somebody else's custody, and that has -- it's a court order. it is not administrative. which is the large part of what our function is. our function is civil and administrative. there are some groups of illegal immigrants that we do refer to the u.s. attorneys for criminal prosecution, but that's only where -- that's the only place the criminal documentation would arise. senator durbin: if we are dealing with someone who is

incarcerated and been found guilty of a serious felony, no questions asked, it's over the line, serious felony from your point of view, what you're asking is that before they be released and their undocument status there be a report to your agency? a notice. secretary saldana: please advise us with respect to the notification part where there is not -- we have not established problem cause or we have a detainer. senator durbin: we are dealing with a question of illegal re-entry, illegal re-entry, may occur, if i'm not mistaken, someone who has been deported from the united states and attempts to return. even if there is no criminal history other than that action of returning after deportation, is that correct. secretary saldana: that is right. the u.s. attorneys across the country are not necessarily enforcing those because of their priorities. it's just too low level. senator durbin: the suggestion we make a mandatory minimum five

year sentence for people who have been deported and come back across the border with no other criminal--o no crime mall history and no other history from the government's point of view, that seems to me to be an invitation for a lot of prosecutorses -- prosecutions. secretary saldana: we are stretched on our resources already and focusing on convicted criminals. to expand it to just illegal entries or re-entries would be a very big problem for us. senator durbin: thank you development senator sessions: thank you. i believe senator lee has yielded. senator cruz. senator cruz. senator cruz: thank you, mr. chairman. thank you, senator lee. thank you to the witnesses for being here. the testimony we have heard today is powerful. ms. saldana, you are a texan. you were a prtor -- prosecutor in our state. had you a good reputation as a prosecutor. you are serving an

administration that consistently refuses to follow the law. we heard this morning the very real consequences of that. now, in march when you were testifying before the house, you were asked about sanctuary cities. cities like san francisco that defy federal law and because of their defiance of federal law kate steinle is no longer with us, she was murdered because of the refusal of local officials to recognize federal law. you were asked in that house hearing should federal law compel state officials to comply with federal law? and your answer, and i want to quote, verbatim, was thank you amen. yes. in my view, that was the former federal prosecutor speaking.

and giving an answer. yet the next day you issued a statement retracting what you said and saying, in fact, although you said amen, which is a pretty powerful statement from the heart, you didn't, in fact, mean the federal law should force local officials to comply with federal laws. i want to ask you what political officials pressured you to change your statement? secretary saldana: not a single one. this came from the -- the original statement came from my heart. the clarification came from high heart. i don't mean to quibble with you, senator. i respect you greatly. i will say this, the question was not asked, the question was very specific. would it be helpful for detainers to be mandatory. the law enforcement response there is clarity is always helpful. but i wanted to be sure that people were not reacting to that as an indictment of p.e.p. or working with communities.

and that's what i'm committed to do. senator cruz: let me make sure i understand your testimony correctly then. you said then it would be helpful, as in presumably helpful is good, beneficial something you support, so are you saying, then, that i.c., supports making it manned -- i.c.e. supports making it mandatory to comply with detainers? secretary saldana: no. senator cruz: you just said it's helpful. secretary saldana: clarity is always helpful. but cooperation and working with our state and local partners, something i have always done, i will continue to do and i'm committed to see it through with respect to these jurisdictions. senator cruz: it is difficult to work in an administration where you're required to take a position where although something would be in your own words helpful, you nonetheless don't support t let me shift to a different topic. in the year 2013, how many criminal illegal aliens did the obama administration release?

secretary saldana: in 2014, it was a little over 30,000. senator cruz: how many murderers? secretary saldana: in that year, sir, i can't remember the number right now. but i know that we had -- the statistic was said earl yerks four-year period, there were 121 persons who committed crimes. i can't provide you the number. senator cruz: how many rapists? secretary saldana: i am not sure right now. i have to pull that number. senator cruz: how many drunk drivers. secretary saldana: same answer. i can break that down for you. i think we are working on that right now. it's been requested before. senator cruz: yesterday how many murderers did the obama administration release? secretary saldana: senator, i don't know the answer to that question. i want the american people to understand our job and our mission if i may. we don't release people willy-nilly. we release people pursuant to

these statutes and regulations. there are only a limited number of crimes that we are -- we are required to detain people. it is mandatory. they are spelled out here very clearly. many of them related to drug distribution and conspiracy. the rest of the people, as you know very well the law requires us to release some of the a small percentage of the total. also the immigration courts have half a million case backlog, they have the proceedings they go through. they will order release because many of these folks challenge their bond or their detention. but the rest and i think it's like 49% this past year, in the rest where i.c.e. has discretion , where this statute has given us discretion, we have very well trained, very experienced law enforcement officers who look at the entire case just like a magistrate judge or a federal

judge does -- senator cruz: ms. saldana. i want to know your testimony here, when i ask you how many criminals i.c.e. released in 2013, you are off by a factor of three. you said 30,000. the correct answer is 104,000. there were 68,000 krill nams, criminal illegal aliens that i.c.e. declined to begin deportation proceedings against despite the fact as senator sessions observed, the federal law you are holding up there they shall be deported, the obama administration refused to deport them. that's 68,000. in addition to that, there were 36,000 in deportation proceedings with criminal convictions that the obama administration released. i would note among those were 193 murderers with homicide convictions. 426 people with sexual assault convictions. were over 16,000 criminal

illegal identicalens with drunk driving convictions. released by this administration because this administration refuses to follow the law. secretary saldana: those numbers i'm looking straight at them. you asked me, i thought, about 2014. that is 30,558. and the good news is at least that was down from 2013, when it was 36,000 -- senator cruz: you are admitting the 68,000 criminal illegal aliens that i.c.e. did not begin deportation proceedings you add those together it's over 100,000. secretary saldana: that's right. all done pure suit to this statute that the congress has outlined. senator cruz: you heard the testimony from the victims' families. i introduced case law in the senate a mandatory minimum of five years in prison for anyone apprehended with an illegal re-entry. does i.c.e. support case law? secretary saldana: i is sure would like to look at that. i'm not sure if it was

introduced -- -- senator cruz: last week. secretary saldana: i'm willing to look at any proposal along those lines and consider and work with you -- >> we'll leave this hearing to take you live to the floor of this house for morning hour speeches. we'll bring you back to the senate judiciary committee hearing assuming its still underway after the house goes into recess. this is live coverage on c-span. the speaker pro tempore: the house will be in order. the chair lays before the house a communication from the speaker. the clerk: the speaker's room washington, d.c. july 21, 2015. i hereby appoint the honorable carlos curbelo to act as speaker pro tempore on this day. signed, john a. boehner, speaker of the house of representatives. the speaker pro tempore: pursuant to the order of the

house of january 6, 2015, the chair will now recognize members from lists submitted by the majority and minority leaders for morning hour debate. the chair will alternate recognition between the parties with each party limited to one hour and each member other than the majority and minority leaders and the minority whip limited to five minutes but in no event shall debate continue beyond 1:50 p.m. the chair now recognizes the gentleman from north carolina, mr. jones, for five minutes. . mr. jones: former president george w. bush spent $400,000 at a fundraiser for veterans wounded in iraq and afghanistan. a president who sent thousands of americans to die in an unnecessary war justified by manipulated intelligence would charge a fee to speak at a fundraiser for wounded veterans. abc also reported that in addition to charging $100,000

to speak at the charity, and i quote, the former president was also provided with a private jet to travel to houston at a cost of $20,000. . 2350ed to speak on behalf of men and women he ordered into harm's way for him to be paid to raise money for veterans that were wounded in combat under his orders. i don't think that's right said former marine eddie wright. eddie wright mr. speaker, lost both hands in a rocket attack in fallujah in iraq in the year 2004. this is so disappointing and outrageous. these veterans have been severely wounded and the president who led us into an unjustified ward charged us

$100,000 to be in their presence. that's wrong, mr. speaker. that's really really wrong. many of these wounded veterans live from iraq and afghanistan live in the third district in north carolina where i have the privilege to represent. for years i have felt deep regret over my vote to go into iraq and to atone for that. i have publicly and privately apologized and signed over 11,000 letters to families who lost loved ones in afghanistan and iraq because of my mistake. president bush and vice president cheney have never publicly apologized to the families for the unnecessary war they began. mr. speaker, i think my friend colonel lawrence wilkerson, steve of 1/2 to former secretary of state colin powell was right about the iraq war. on misnbc news a couple months ago, and i -- msnbc a couple months ago, i quote, the intelligence was fixed and everyone should know that by now. it was failure of the

intelligence agency, but it was also a failure of the political people who manipulated the intelligence failure to their own benefit. he further stated, it destroyed the balance of power in the gulf and produced what we have today. the chaos we have today. al qaeda in iraq. never there until we invaded. the mess we have in yemen. everything that's happened in the middle east today can be attributed to our having destroyed the balance of power that we had carefully maintained for a half century with the invasion of 2003. it was a disaster. i have a lot of respect for colonel wilkerson because he's telling the truth when he made this statement to msnbc. let me repeat the words of marine eddie wright who lost both hands in iraq. and i quote eddie wright. for him president bush to be paid to raise money for veterans that were wounded under his orders i don't think that's

right. mr. speaker, it is not right. and i'll add my own thoughts and use the word shameful that the former president and his administration who created an unnecessary war and sent our troops over there to die and also to be wounded should not charge one dime to go help them out now. so with that, mr. speaker, i yield back the balance of my time and ask god to bless america. thank you. the speaker pro tempore: the time of the gentleman has expired. the chair recognizes the gentleman from texas, mr. poe, for five minutes. mr. poe: mr. speaker a gunman with a heart bent on mischief and mall list aforethought, unleashed hell in chattanooga last thursday. he shot up an armed forces recruiting center and drove to a navy reserve center and continued his shooting spree. five warriors were caught in the begunman's furious rampage and were killed.

the killer who once followed an al qaeda cleric on line wounded three others. to kill the very people who devote their lives to keeping our country safe is ironically and tragically sad. they were fathers, boyfriends sons brothers, and friends whose lives were robbed. the fallen were gunnery sergeant thomas j. sullivan, united states marine corps. he was from massachusetts. tommy and his buddies and family called him, as his family called him, was deployed twice during the iraq war and received two purple hearts. he had been enlisted for almost 18 years. the sullivan family owns a local bar and restaurant in springfield, massachusetts. pictures of red white, and blue ribbons memorialize the veteran on the restaurants' facebook page. he was an avid boston sports fan who loved fans and musicians. freand said he was a short guy by his personality was bigger than his height. you couldn't like tom. he was 41.

lance corporal squire, "skip" wells. united states marine corps. he was from cobb county, georgia the service was in his blood. he was a student attending georgia southern university where he decided to follow in the footsteps of his family and enlist. god and country flowed deep in his vains on thursday he had been text was his girlfriend of 2 1/2 years about his upcoming visit in chattanooga. the last text he sent her was two words and capitalized that read active shooter. she tried desperately to reach him but did not learn about the murders until the next day. he was in his early 20's. sergeant carston a. pomquist, united states marine corps, patriotic outdoors man from a small town in wisconsin. he joined the marines right out of high school and taken to the battlefield in a born land. he was deployed to afghanistan twice as part of operation

enduring freedom. it was reported that he was so proud of being a marine that when he finished boot cam he went right back to the small town of grantsberg to visit his high school dressed in his marine uniform. he and his wife had a young son and are expected another. he was 25. staff sergeant david a. wyatt united states marine corps, a native of russellville, arkansas, husband and father. he served two tours of duty in iraq and one in afghanistan. he was described as a leader, a mentor and quick to help and was easy to approach. wyatt was father who was overjoyed about the upcoming birth of his second child. he also planned to serve at least 20 years in the military. he was 35. petty officer second class randell smith, united states navy. a former high school baseball star from ohio joined the navy in 2010. he was a pitcher for the high school panthers and accepted a

scholarship to play baseball at defiance college in ohio. after a shoulder injury smith decided to forgo sports and serve his nation. he was a father, a husband, he had three little girls. according to his facebook page, he was a passionate sports fan. he was passionate about the united states women's soccer team and their world cup win. he had even a love for the houston astros. he was 26. good men. good warriors. good americans. all died before their time. this was a senseless and dalous act -- callous act of hate. even those these military facilities in chattanooga are riddled with bullett holes they are a steadfast symbol of the patriotism of our military. they are not enough tears or words for the sorry that engulf this nation. they are the best this nation has and we continue to mourn their loss and pay pray for their family and friends. ronald reagan said it best. we will always remember, we will

always be proud, we will always be prepared so that we may be free. the chattanooga five. that's just the way it is. i yield back. the speaker pro tempore: the gentleman's time has expired, the chair recognizes the gentleman from minnesota, mr. emmer, for five minutes. mr. emmer: mr. speaker, today i would like to recognize johnp of elk river and disabled veterans of america organization for all the incredible work they have done and continue to do for our nation's veterans. on august 5, john is hosting a charity fishing event in ramsay minnesota. he's hosting the event for disabled american veterans. along with friends and volunteers, john plans to bring 150 wounded veterans to a private lake for a great day of fishing, games and simply enjoying the crit minnesota outdoors. our veterans have stood for our country's freedom and individual liberty all the while putting their lives on the line.

disabled veterans have sacrificed in order to protect and serve our great nation. it is an extraordinary kind of person who cares for others so deeply. i would like to thank john and the disabled veterans of america not only for all the work they have done for this event but for also recognizing that veterans need and deserve to be cared for once they return home. mr. speaker, i rise today on the fifth anniversary of dodd-frank to share a story from a small community bank that has three locations in my district. this bang is struggling -- bank is struggling due to the additional regulation dodd-frank imposed on them. they were forced to hire a full-time compliance director, in addition to retaining two outside compliance firms. this cost the bank nearly $100,000 more a year. in addition numerous other staff members now have to take time away from revenue generating activities to satisfy the compliance regulations created by dodd-frank.

they told me, quote compliance has always been a cost that is just a part of our business. however, since dodd-frank this cost has expanded greatly. unfortunately, since there is no offsetting revenue for the expanding cost, we are forced to consider passing our cost to our customers with additional fees, close quote. mr. speaker, i wish i could say this is an isolated occurrence, but a recent study shows that dodd-frank has added $61 million hours of paperwork and more than $24 billion in final rule costs for the financial industry in this country. nationwide, we have lost approximately $1,500 community banks already. the five years since dodd-frank was signed into law have been marked with five years of failure. mr. speaker, i rise today to acknowledge and congratulate the mustangs for being named the 2015 minnesota state champions in physically impaired adapted

softball. comprised of students from many cities, these players were forced to be reckoned with at this year's state championship. having earned the number one seed, they went into the tournament boasting 11 wins with more than 167 runs scored during the season. with the momentum of an undefeated season, the mustangs cruised to victory at the recent state championships after scoring nearly a dozen runs and compliting a few notable double plays. the must tanks won the championship game with an 11-8 vick trim over the rochester raiders. more impressive, the mustang championship win ended a six-year winning streak for the previous defending champions. i ask that this body join me in congratulating these tremendous athletes. well-done. mr. speaker, i rise today to speak in support of the house agriculture and energy and commerce committee's actions on the safe and accurate food labeling act of 2015 of which i am a co-sponsor.

biotechnology is nothing new. norman bore log, a researcher and legend in my home state was the father of the green revolution while at the university of minnesota due to his groundbreaking work on high yield crops that have fed billions of people around the globe. american farmers already deal with heavy compliance regulation s to ensure our food is safe to e-families must know that his incredible accomplishment and hard work of the american farmer is not in vain. it is no surprise that i'm not favent federal bureaucracy, but on this issue we must stand with american farmers on the health and safety of our food. we should move in the right direction and the house should pass this bipartisan legislation that will create a voluntary label that supports farmers and american families. mr. speaker, i yield back the balance of my time. the speaker pro tempore: the gentleman's time has expired. the chair recognizes the gentleman from florida, mr. bilirakis, for five minutes.

mr. bilirakis: thank you, mr. speaker. mr. speaker, i rise today to mark a anniversary that has pained the cypriot and hellenic communities for 41 years. on july 20, 1974 41 years yesterday, in violation of international law turkey invaded cyprus and captured much of the northern part of the island. . since the invasion turkey has inhibited cyprus. forcibly relocating 160,000 greek cypriots and infusing the island with hundreds of thousands of turkish settlers. nearly 1,500 cypriots remain missing since the 1974 invasion, including four americans whose remains have not been located. religious artifacts and cultural relics have been destroyed in the wake of the turkish army's invasion and after 41 years of displacement

are now lost to time. hundreds of churches and monasteries have been shamefully desecrated losing all sense of their historic and religious significance. sipe russ has been a steadfast ally and cypriots deserve an end to this senseless division. with negotiations under way, again, for reunification, let's hope this time next year we'll be celebrating the end of this illegal occupation. as it builds, turkey cannot be allowed to stonewall this democratic process any longer. turkey, the united states stand -- today, the united states stands in a unique role as a friend of both cyprus and turkey. as an honest broker to both sides, we can help them to see that a unified future for cyprus is far more promising than the present. the united states' relationship with all its allies, turkey

included, must be shared on values and mutual respect and at the core the rule of law must be respected above all else. 41 years of legal occupation is 41 years too long. cyprus has long been a strong and faithful ally of the united states, and we owe our support for both peace and the end of this illegal occupation. i encourage the cypriot leaders to keep up the hard work of unifying the people divided for over a generation. many hard issues remain, but hopefully this will be the last year we acknowledge this illegal occupation. thank you mr. speaker. and i yield back. the speaker pro tempore: the gentleman yields back. the chair recognizes the gentleman from florida, mr. curbelo, for five minutes. mr. curbelo: mr. speaker, i rise today in honor of one of my constituents, lieutenant colonel eldridge williams, a

tuss tee gee airman who -- tuskegee airman who passed away. born in texas in 1917 lieutenant williams graduated from xavier university in 1941 and immediately applied for the army flight program. he was commissioned as a second lieutenant in miami beach in 1942. lieutenant colonel williams trained tuskegee airmen who flew overseas to escort bomber planes across europe. though he didn't make it overseas, he trained other pilots until the end of world war ii. he continued to serve during the 1948 berlin airlift and the korean war. in 1949, mr. williams moved to richmond heights, a community in south miami-dade, established for black servicemen returning from the war. mr. williams taught physical education at richmond heights middle school and was soon after promoted to administrator serving as

director of desegregation for miami-dade county public schools. he retired from the school system in 1985, but remained committed to overseeing programs aimed at assisting kids that had dropped out of school. president george w. bush presented mr. williams and the other living tuskegee airmen with a congressional gold medal in 2007. this was an honor long overdue to these taylor blazing heroes. on -- trail blaising heroes. on behalf of a grateful nation, i send my condolences about mr. williams' loved ones and the many lives touched by his influence. may they take solemn pride in a life well lived. mr. speaker, i rise today to recognize florida international university and their outreach to those in our agriculture community. i recently learned of a new program created by f.i.u. to give veterans, along with

minority and women farmers, the opportunity to expand their knowledge of the agriculture business. the veterans and small farmers outreach program will provide direct benefits to not only our brave men and women returning from harm's way but also to the countless small farms in homestead, an agriculture focused community in south florida. the students currently enrolled in the veterans and small farmers outreach program at f.i.u. have the opportunity to learn more about tending crops and raising livestock through apprenticeships throughout miami-dade and broward counties. i am confident these students will soon enter our work force and be productive members of the agriculture community. we will all truly benefit from the fruits of their labor. i thank f.i.u. for their continued innovation in bettering the south florida community and wish only the best of luck to the hardworking students of this newly created program.

mr. speaker, i rise today to express my serious concerns over the iran deal that was recently announced. so far it appears that this agreement is bad for the united states and bad for our allies in the region. as i have said before, a weak deal that gives iran any possibility of achieving a nuclear weapon is unacceptable. key components of the nuclear program are still in place. iran will still be allowed to have centrifuges and continue research and development on them. facilities will remain in place to purportedly continue their nuclear activities for peaceful purposes. in addition to these troubling facts, the iranian regime is going to receive an exorbitant amount of money that they will undoubtedly use at least in part to fund hamas and hezbollah. mr. speaker, from what i can tell, this deal does not prevent iran from having the

parts needed to reach the nuclear threshold capability down the road. and it will boost the regime's ability to support terror in the region. i strongly urge my colleagues to continue to carefully monitor this situation and consider the security risks of our interests and of our allies' interests as we continue analyzing this deal. mr. speaker i rise today to congratulate two students from my district, daniel and silvian who got the rank of eagle scout in homestead florida. this accomplishment has been received by only 4% of boy scouts nationwide. daniel is the first scout in troop 69 to attain an eagle palm pin in the last 15 years.

his fellow troop member sebastian completed 173 volunteer hours at jack g. dmplet gordon elementary school for his eagle scout accomplishments. they are exemplary of the boy scouts' logan, do a good turn daily. i applaud their hard work and dedication to achieve this honor. they truly embody the bow scouts' commitment to our community and i'm always pleased to see young people with such dedication and giving back and making our neighborhoods better. once again congratulations daniel, and sebastian. with that, mr. speaker, i yield back the balance of my time. the speaker pro tempore: the gentleman's time has expired. pursuant to clause 12-a of rule 1, the chair declares the house in recess until 2:00 p.m. today.

to help our community as opposed to put roadblocks in the way in their community policing. >> and would you tell us what you would support in that regard right now? director saldana:er: i'd be happy to work with you -- i'd be happy to work with you with any legislation you would proposed. senator grassley: thank you, senator vetter. there was nothing in the gang of eight that would fix the sanctuary problem. it was one of the loopholes in that legislation. senator sessions: senator purdue. senator purdue: this is a tremendously important crisis, as i would call it, not just an immigration crisis but -- senator perdue: this is a tremendously important crisis, as i would call it, not just an immigration crisis. we heard from six families this

morning, there are many other thousands out there who have similar experiences, including in my home state with similar tragedies. we both got to work together and solve this thing. we heard this morning that between 2000 and 2014 that over 100 convicted criminal aliens were released and then subsequently arrested again for murder after they had been released. those convicted criminals were in our communities because the government let them go free instead of deporting them. in 2013 alone, i.c.e. released over 36,000 criminal and illegal immigrants into american communities. these illegal aliens had almost 90,000 convictions on their records. including 193 murder convictions and over 16,000 drunk driving convictions. all told, and i know this is a debatable number, but all told, there are over 340,000 criminal illegal immigrants walking the streets right now.

i would argue this is a national emergency. it's absolutely outrageous, in my opinion. i don't think there are innocent parties in this debate. in 2000 my home state, we had a 16-year-old kid killed by an illegal immigrant. today, 15 years later, the perpetrator of that crime is still at large. this is unconscionable when you hear the stories of these families, but we could bring thousands in here. it's time for us to do something. i just have a real quick question, director saldana, and thank you for your service in texas and now nationally, but fud this perpetrator in california -- if you had this perpetrator in california in your custody, i want to ask you again for clarity, what's i.c.e.'s policy, how would you have treated this particular instant where it was -- they were released back to the custody of the authorities in san francisco? director saldanaa: the

difference between a criminal -- director saldana: the difference between the criminal -- when we get a judicial warrant and a criminal warrant -- senator perdue: and what if they don't? director saldana: we take them to court, then and say this individual, this jurisdiction has failed to honor this court order. i mean, that has teeth, right, when it's coming from a federal judge or even a local judge? and then we ask other jurisdictions to honor our criminal warrants that we get in our investigation. so to us it's a mutual benefit and we would honor that criminal warrant typically. now, the secretary testified last week on something i know he and i are going to have many more conversations about and that is what more could be done to try to ensure that we have

-- where we have a jurisdiction that's not cooperating with us that we work in this case with the bureau of prisons or someone else to try tone sure we get custody of that person? senator perdue: i want to come back to bureau of prisons in a second. this is not a trick question. but i want to know that the policies consistent in your organization about how you would have treated that particular perpetrator because just last week one of your senior officials inside your staff told the judiciary committee staff that in their opinion that i.c.e. would have done exactly the same thing as the v.o.p. in that particular instance and released that individual back in the san francisco county, is that -- community, is that correct? director saldana: we have a warrant signed by a judge. we call the jurisdiction and say, are you -- is this still a live warrant, and are you going to pursue prosecution? and we work with that jurisdiction if the dependent

what the answer is, we work with them where we get the biggest bang for our buck? is it the state prosecution or federal prosecution? and that's where that cooperation is so important. and why i truly recommend against forcing these jurisdictions because that breaks relationships. senator perdue: i'm not worried about relationships. i'm worried about results and right now we have cities not adhering to federal law and i think that's a tremendous problem regarding immigration or highway issues. let me change topics. we mentioned p.e.p. earlier. several senators sent a lettory secretary johnson a couple weeks ago. we still haven't a response, by the way. we're concerned about p. e.p. -- we're concerned about p.e.p. p.e.p. will release additional, maybe thousands of additional criminal aliens from federal custody. and i'm really concerned about what effect that could have,

just like we heard this morning. let me ask you this. with regard to these communities and p.e.p., given that these communities did not previously honor i.c.e. detainers or cooperate with federal immigration at all, why do we have confidence that they're going to work with us on p.e.p. and why do we any that will be aette better approach? director saldana: because of the differences we had with the new p.e.p. program. i mentioned one earlier. we're removing the objection, the constitutional objection that we're detaining people or asking them to hold people without a basis. they completed their state or local sentence and now we're saying ok, don't hold them 48 hours in the typical situation. just give us notice of 48 hours before. we've got some differences to communicate to them and to show them and i think it will make a difference in many cases. i don't know -- i don't know if i shared with you, senator, i'd like you to know this, we have identified the top 49 jurisdictions that would have the greatest impact based on their illegal populations.

and 33 have already said they'll work with us one way or another. and 11 are still in the process of considering it. we're going to keep working that. and that will have a great impact. senator perdue: director rodriguez, i'm sorry. i'm almost out of time. i want to talk about the martinez case with regard to the exception relative to gang membership and potential loophole. this thing's pretty obvious to me. we talked about this in an earlier committee hearing but i'd like to get your opinion. isn't this just another loophole for someone to falsely claim a threat if they were to go back home they are under threat therefore they should get asylum here? director rodriguez: you should not use your prior criminalality to claim a particular social group. we think rulemaking is the right path to resolving the right way to handle this issue and we can certainly meet senator, and talk about solutions to the issues you presented.

senator perdue: thank you, mr. chairman. senator sessions: senator flake, we're going to senator tillis or are you going next? senator tillis. all right. thank you. senator tillis: thank you. director saldana and director rodriguez, thank you for your be -- thank you for your service. i know you have a tough job. we need to unify what i think are very, very important numbers. the center for immigration studies estimates that there are some 347,000 criminal immigrants at large today. according to march 2 report, i.c.e. weekly departures and detentions report, there's 168,000 convicted criminal immigrants who had final orders of removal but are at large in the united states. now, in 2013 i think that senator perdue mentioned there were some 36,000 aliens

released. now, they represented a total of 88,000 convictions. 193 homicide convictions including one killing of a police officer with a gun. 426 sexual assault convictions. 303 kidnapping convictions. 1,075 aggravated assault convictions. 1,160 stolen vehicles. 9,187 dangerous drug convictions, and 1,670 drunk or drug driving conditions. after they were released -- now, that's what -- that's what they mounted. by the way that's on average, if my back of the napkin math is right, releasing someone who is convicted of a homicide, some two or three times a week. now, after these people were

released, 1,000 were convicted of another crime following their release. this is a significant problem. those stats were only for 2013. we could quote stats before and after that. it's a serious problem and i think it's something that the sanctuary cities need to recognize. director saldana -- director saldana: quite a promotion. senator tillis: i'm not so sure. i'm a little bit confused about the p.e.p. program. i understand that you're trying to work with local law enforcement. but to a certain extent, it seems to me that we are really excusing the fact that they're not really reading, at least the spirit of the law, and some would say the letter. we talked about if we passed legislation and be very specific about the mandatory requirements and you don't want

to do it. it seems to me you're concerned about the relationship damage that could be done by forcing them. is that accurate. director saldana: well, sir, as i said our local law enforcement relationships are vital, not to just what we do in immigration. i mentioned homeland security investigations earlier. we rely on our local law enforcement partners to assist us with crime that is part of the homeland security investigations. senator tillis: i understand that but shame on them if they all of a sudden not going to cooperate on other matters of homeland security because we want to take a very specific direct stand that they should obey the law. that to me is like we'll do a favor here and cut them some slack. that's their job. that's what they're sworn to do. director saldana: just because i worked in law enforcement over a decade, i want you to understand. most of the jurisdictions work with us every day. thank goodness they do. and let me set some context

here. i think i mentioned a little over 200 jurisdictions that have passed some kind of ordinance or legislation not to work with us. there are thousands of jurisdictions that do already. i'm very proud of my home state of texas that has 254 jurisdictions in it and we have very good relationships with 99.9% of those. please, do not assume that these 208 represent the total number of -- the vast majority of jurisdictions out there. senator tillis: i do understand. we need to keep in mind that numbers i went through are significant, and each and every year there's roughly the same sorts of numbers. this is a significant challenge. i don't feel like, what i consider bad actor cities, sanctuary cities, shame on them. they need to cooperate with you all. you need to do your job. they need to help you do your

job. not because of some favor but because of responsibility. now, the last question that i have relates to the daca program and, director rodriguez, this may be appropriate for you. i asked the secretary when he was here if he felt certain -- you're probably familiar with the rangel hernandez qude rupele murder down in charlotte, 20 minutes where i lived, this is a guy who had some affiliation with gang violence and he was one of the cases that i think spurred you all's review of the other actions. are you absolutely certain that we've scrubbed those who have received deferred action and that we don't have another hernandez out there waiting to happen? director rodriguez: i'll take that as really two questions. so the first is, am i absolutely certain? i am satisfied that my staff

engaged in a very thorough process of running the entire daca cohort back through the law enforcement databases that we use to identify gang membership. i do believe that the label of gang member in that database is a reliable label so that if the individual's identified, that gives us what we need to either deny them outright or to conduct further investigation. so that as we speak today that does leave me with confidence that as of the date that we ran -- we did that review that we were able to address all cases of gang membership. if we have future cases where people either become gang members or commit crimes, we will address those as we have. we will terminate daca in the manner that we have in other cases. senator tillis: thank you. thank you, mr. chair.

senator sessions senator flake. senator flake: in response to a letter i sent to you along with chairman grassley, you mentioned in the morano case he posted $10,000 bond after his immigration hearing which means that he became obligated to report to i.c.e. upon demand. and at the time the most recent criminal offense i.c.e. had not triggered his obligation to report on demand. he was released from custody in january of 2013. he was arrested for murder january 22, 2015. over two years. was there any contact with i.c.e. during that period, between i.c.e. and him? director saldana: he was in proceedings. that's then -- he's involved with the court with the immigration courts. whether i.c.e. had some communication with him in that two-year period, i don't know, senator.

senator flake: do you know if the immigration court or anybody had contact with him? director sal dana: i don't know. senator flake: is it ok for them not to talk to him for two years? director saldana: it could happen. senator flake: i.c.e.'s obligation to report you mentioned you didn't see him because there was nothing that triggered an obligation to report. has that policy been changed in terms of triggers for reporting ? in light of this case and others, has there been any change? director saldana: not that i'm aware of, sir. senator flake: how many times has i.c.e. revoked bail for those that have been put out on bail like this? director saldana: oh, it happens with some regularity. i can't give you a percent but i can give you for that specific period. senator flake: one thing

striking about this is the lack of coordination and even notification between federal and local officials in response to the letter that chairman grassley and i sent to you, you mentioned that i.c.e. is working to implement a new tish tiff called the law enforcement notification system, or mentioned that lens has been de-- deployed in several states. what's stopping that from being implemented in the other 39 states? director saldana: because we have to work with the each state office that gets notices out to their counties and communities. some, like mine, have a lot of counties. it's complex. we have to make our systems compatible to talk and so we started with three states as test cases. texas being one of them. and it worked pretty well there. we expanded to the total of 11, and there's a period of time that you have to work out kinks

because we want to be sure to get this right and that's what we've been going through right now which is the test program. we passed that. we expanded that to the 11. we're liking what we're seeing. senator flake: is this being handled with a little more urgency now? director saldana: i will stay on it. i assure you, to make sure it gets done as quickly as we possibly can. senator flake: so by the end of the year you can say in all 50 states we have better notification requirements? director saldana: yes, sir. senator flake: in director rodriguez's testimony he mentioned that 43,370 new daca requests were denied. 414 renewal requests had been denied. of these you know, 44,000 denied requests, houm have been deported? -- how many have been deported? there are 43,375 daca requests

that were denied, and then 414 renewal requests have been denied. if somebody is not able to access daca, then they are still eligible for deport sayings or that is demanded, how many of those have been deported? director saldana: whether they're daca or not eligible, sir, we look at ours the same way we do anybody else. daca doesn't give them a free pass. we have to look at them on a case-by-case basis as to what's the next step, whether we detain someone, what level of bond we place, if we release them, that kind of thing. it's all done on the whole fact and circumstances surrounding that individual, including criminal history. senator flake: if they've done something or have an offense that makes them ineligible, you would assume they're being

looked at now. can you give me a ballpark of how many of those have been deported of the 44,000 daca cases that people who were not able to access daca? director saldana: i will get us an accurate number for you. i'd rather not throw out a ballpark. senator flake: director rodriguez, in the case of kate steinle, mr. sanchez was here in the country illegally. obviously he had been deported five times. that means he was able to come back across the border illegally five times. obviously border security is something we're very concerned about in arizona and this committee is extremely concerned about. there's one program that we've had, operation streamline, in arizona, a secure -- or a secure consequences program. it's helped significantly in yuma. we've been able to bring repeat

crossings down significantly. yet, the department of justice seems to be now backing away from that program. what are your thoughts there? director rodriguez: well, senator, as you know, i administrator the immigration benefits structure. i don't operate border security. i certainly support border security. i'm sure commissioner -- the commissioner can address those concerns you have, sir. senator flake: we want to make sure that the programs we have are working continue. we have one working in arizona and we're very concerned it's not being fully implemented. the fact that mr. sanchez was able to so easily return across the border five times in the case you know, in california is very disturbing but not surprising frankly. so i thank you for your

testimony. appreciate it, mr. chairman. senator sessions: thank you senator flake. well, the streamline program i don't think either one of you operate that but i hope you'll fight for it because backing away from it as senator flake said, is very much a retrograde step. we're also familiar with the 287-g. ms. saldana, you talk about cooperating with federal and state and local officials. your department, homeland security has dramatically weakened the 287-g program which trains local law enforcement officers how to properly and legally assist the homeland security in carrying out its function. do you support the 287-g, and what's the status of that? director saldana: well, yes. i'm not sure what you mean with respect to weakening. we welcome any 87-g partners.

senator sessions: just check the record and see if there hasn't been a me minute ution of the 287-g program which needs to be expanded regularly. director saldana: it's because of us not wanting that partnership. it's because jurisdictions have withdrawn or not coming to the table anymore. senator sessions: we think it needs to be advanced and what should be. what the american people know and what the victims of violent crimes know is that this administration has consistently and steadfastly placed the goal of amnesty above the goal of public safety time and time and time again, that's been the fact. and you're just functionaries in that system. you're asked to do a system but within the rules been given by the political leaders and it's just not right. it's wrong. we need to do more about that and we need to see that end.

if this administration has spent one 10th of the effort on enforcement in protecting people from crimes and punishing people who are criminals who violate our immigration laws rather than on amnesty, we'd be a lot safer today. many of the people that have been injured robbed or killed by illegal aliens would be alive today. that's just fact. everybody knows it. so i'm concerned about it. ms. saldana, chris crane is head of the association -- i.c.e. officers association. 7,000 officers. they have -- they're the ones that filed a lawsuit against your predecessor saying that he was ordering them to carry out out policies that required them to violate their oath. to enforce the law. i never heard of anything like that the statements, mr.

rodriguez, that your officers said 12,000 led by chris -- ken polinkis, are just stunning in their criticism of supervisors and political leaders. morale is down. and it's because we're not doing what they're paid to do. and they know it. mr. crane says, ms. saldana i.c.e. is crumbling from within. morale is at an all-time low. as criminal aliens are released to the streets and i.c.e. instead takes disciplinary action against its own officers for making lawful arrests. it appears clear that federal law enforcement officers are the enemy, not those who break the laws, closed quote. he goes on to say, i.c.e. officers requested a meeting with president obama and are still waiting. in that time the white house has met with big business, big labor, illegal alien activists. the administration has ramped

up its nonenforcement directives, putting officers and the public in danger. every day dangerous and violent criminal aliens are released back into our communities closed quote. that's the true facts of the situation here, and you can do better if you had leadership that would let you do better. we could do so much better. we've added thousands of officers since last dustup in 2007 over amnesty. and we ought to be in a position that we can make real progress. director saldana: senator, may i say something? that's one of the first things that caught my attention when i joined the agency late last year, early this year. i am putting a lot of effort in trying to engage employees and what they do. i will tell you this, though. i have met with mr. crane several times now. i met with mr. trumka, the head

of the afl-cio, as well to discuss our mutual -- their concerns our mutual interests and i will say when i get out in the field, this is somewhat inconsistent with the portrayal that you just described of our employees. they are so proud of the work they do, and they're so proud of being able to focus on criminal convicted aliens and removing them from the country and they go about their business in a very efficient and good way. and they take pride in that. i just want to mention that to you because that's a fact. i mean, that's what i've seen as i traveled across the country. senator sessions: i believe the facts show that this administration in a host of ways has failed to take strong action to help those officers do their duty and comply with their oath. mr. rodriguez, on the secretary

jeh johnson, your supervisor testified recently before the house and you said that comprehensive immigration reform had it passed we would know who the criminal aliens are. but that's not so well-said because i don't think anyone that has a criminal warrant out for them or has a history of criminal activities is going to register for any of these programs that you got. in fact, mr. johnson admitted as much saying, most criminals do not subject themselves to criminal background checks. i agree with that. so you're not saying, are you, if we called for people to come and register under daca or the president's executive amnesty that people with criminal records are going to waltz in and file with you so they can be arrested? director rodriguez: so let me few things if i may senator.

some may have, to their detriment, in the daca program, some had disqualifying criminal records did number and apply and in many cases became subjects of notices to appear. but part of my point also is that those who are not criminals, those who committed no illegal act other than illegal entry into the united states, who are not murders rapists, are on the record should they become criminals down the line we know who they are. for the most part, you're right. your ordinary criminal will not register in the manner you described. if i could senator invite you to tour a field office with me because if you did that with me you would see what i have seen is that our officers take pride in their work. they feel empowered in their ability to do their work, and

they exercise their discretion and the chips fall where they will. meaning if there is a case to be denied they do that. i've seen them do that firsthand. senator sessions: well with regard to this daca program and the process of providing legal status to people in the country illegally, isn't it a fact you set it up so they will not be in-person interviews for the people? director rodriguez: yeah to my point -- senator sessions: an in-person interview is critical to a proper evaluation of a person who's applying for legal status? director rodriguez: and we do in-person interviews in those cases that raise concerns that need to be investigated. senator sessions: well, how do you know if it will raise concern if you haven't met with them? director rodriguez: what i do is look through our files. i know at a time we're reviewing the file there is extensive information about

that individual. where our experienced, trained officers can identify, if it's the kind of information about that individual that warrants an actual -- senator sessions: well, mr. polinkis has his -- how it will work in the real world. it has been set up there are few in-person interviews and he says that denies your officers to make rational choices that can protect the public safety. so i guess you just disagree with him on that. director rodriguez: i respectfully do, sir. senator sessions: regard to your process, is it true that over 95% of the daca applicants have been approved? maybe 99%? director rodriguez: i wouldn't be able to tell you the specific percentages other than to say there are a significant number who have been denied or -- senator sessions: you don't know what percentage can be denied? director rodriguez: i couldn't other than to say a substantial

number who has been denied. senator sessions: would you is i less than one half of 1% is a substantial number? director rodriguez: i wouldn't say the number. senator sessions: you are the director of this program. director rodriguez: what matters to me is the manner in which -- senator sessions: what mars to me what percentage -- what matters to me, what percentage is being denied? director rodriguez i can'tty tel you. i know a significant number have been denied because of these kinds of -- senator sessions: i'm looking at a sworn statement in the lawsuit in texas. we've referred to, according to the most recent data i've seen, this his quote under oath, quote, according to the most recent data i've seen, uscis reports a 99.5% approval rate for all daca applicants. the approval rate is high because uscis leadership, you

prevented immigration officers from conducting case-by-case investigations of daca applications. leadership has intentionally stopped proper screening and enforcement. and in so doing it has guaranteed that applications will be rubber stamped for approval, a practice that virtually guarantees widespread fraud and places public safety at risk. so i'll ask you, does this process allow for person-to-person interviews for even a substantial minority? director rodriguez: as i mentioned, when there are concerns that warrant such an interview, yes, the process does allow for it. senator sessions: it goes on to say, as explained by routing daca applications through service centers instead of field offices all over the country, uscis management has intentionally created an application process that bypasses traditional in-person

investigatory interviews with trained uscis adjudication officers. the way this will work, someone sends in an email or mails in a document, is that what they do, and they are approved based on that? director rodriguez: well, there's obviously a lot of information collected. there are specific items that are required as part of the initial request. there are requests for evidence that are subsequently sent to the requesters. there is a sweep of biometrics checks to answer national security issues. that forms the entirety of the files. if those raised concerns then, yes, those are referred for interviews. senator sessions: let me go further with what he said under oath. for example, new uscis computer systems -- a new uscis computer

system to screen applications known as, quote transformation, has proved to be a disaster as the agency has spent upwards of $2 billion for a system that would eventually allow an alien, now referred to as a customer, under uscis policy, as i previously stated, to upload their own information via the internet for adjudication purposes. close the quote. .