" with robert kurson, followed by presidential candidates speaking this last week at the urban league's national conference in fort lauderdale. ♪ >> this week on "q&a," robert kurson discusses his book "pirate hunters" and the search for the ship the golden fleece sunk off the dominican republic in the 1680's. the captain, joseph bannister, was a respected merchant captain but became a pirate. robert kurson also talked about his work as a journalist and author. brian: robert kurson, author of pirate hunters, here for the

third time. this is your third book. i want you to tell us about your father and his storytelling. robert: my father was the single greatest storyteller i have ever known. he owned his own motorcycle chains and lubricants business when we were young. but he functioned as its sole traveling salesman. he was on the road for nine or 10 months out of the year by car. we grew up feeling like we knew him. my dad would call me out of school. sometimes for weeks at a time -- can you imagine such a dream for a kid? and he would take me on business trips across the united states. by the time i was eight or nine, i had been to all 48 continental states. i knew more about oil viscosity and paint than any eight-year-old in the country. we would pass the time during these long stretches by telling stories.

few would tony made up stories true stories. he was the single greatest weaver of yarns you could imagine. there was always one condition -- if he told you a story, you tell him one. brian: you remember one of his stories? robert: he had a series of stories about two fictional back was named marvin and arvin. if you can imagine a story about bad school's and went on trips with their very bad father, they would stretch from state to state. then he would tell me true stories about buying a coppermine when he graduated from college, and his adventures in mexico running a coppermine as a 22-year-old kid. brian: do you have brothers and sisters? robert: i have a sister that is

younger than i am and a brother who is five years younger. brian: your mom was a storyteller? robert: wonderful storyteller. that is part of what they loved about each other and had in common. the thing about both of them is that they were sensitive people and noticed everything. their entire worlds were in shades of gray. there was no black and white. they would notice things that made others sad or could affect others emotionally that no one else could see. they would say, see that person? that person is suffering inside or does not know what to do. at first glance, they would look like anyone else. but when they told you what to look for, see how their eyes are moving, they noticed everything. that was at the bottom of what made their stories great. brian: do you notice everything? robert: i try to, and it is a double-edged sword. when you grow up with people do notice everything, you start to notice things yourself, including the sad and happy

things. it is a vibrant world when you notice, but it can be upsetting sometimes. brian: we have not talked about this -- you talked about the difficulty you had in high school. you got d's and f's. robert: i was right 606 out of 660 in northbrook, illinois. the safety schools others were applying to wear my first choices, and i did not get into those. my guidance counselor advised me not to even bother with college or community college. rather to enroll in the peace corps. i was so naive, i did not know what the peace corps was. it was looking bad for me at 18. brian: what was the problem you had with high school and some of the kids had with you? robert: i had moved a few days before high school started.

i went from a solidly middle-class neighborhood to a very upper-class neighborhood. i did not quite fit in right away and never connected with the kids. there was some kind of dysfunction happening at home too, that was difficult on me emotionally. a lot of the factors came together in a confluence of circumstances that did not make for a productive for years. brian: was that between your mother and father? robert: they had a troubled marriage at that point, even though they loved and admired each other. but my mother was suffering emotionally at the time. it was not the most stable household. it was interesting. i do not think there was anyone in the history of my high school that did as poorly as i did academically but was in no trouble. i did no drugs, did not drink a single beer. brian: we talked before about

you went the -- to the university of wisconsin, harvard law school. then you got into the writing business. what were the things -- one of the things that got your attention was my favorite teacher karma --, an article for esquire. robert: this teacher in northbrook, illinois, who was a very kind, gentle man, that seemed to see the loneliness in other students. there were those of us that felt disconnected from everything and were having trouble at home, felt lonely in the world. he seemed to see that, he noticed everything too. was very kind to the lost souls of the school. at least on the surface. and people gravitated towards

him and a trusted him. he was also the athletic trainer. i would see him in the locker room, taping up members of the football team. but one day, he did not come to school. there was an announcement he would not be there. by that time, all the radio and tv in chicago was announcing his arrest for the murder and rape of the son of a policeman. it turns out it was not his first kidnapping and abduction. he had a sophisticated way of picking up hitchhikers. he resigned his post because he intended to go after his own students. on the 20th anniversary, i always thought about him, as funny as that might sound, and i always wondered how that might happen to such a gentle man. i went and found him in prison. he was serving a life sentence. i asked him the questions those

wondering. brian: what was he like? robert: as gentle and nice as i remembered. he was remorseful. i had read court transcripts. he explained terrible things have gone wrong with him. she had a genetic disorder with an extra chromosome. it developed in certain ways physiologically as a woman. he was a very complex situation. but he knew what he was doing and that it was getting worse and worse. he planned to take himself into the wilderness in montana, so far that he could never do these things again. but he was finally caught and sentenced. brian: is he still alive? >> robert: i believe he is still alive. after our second visit, he cut off contact. but i learned one of the students he may have had his eye on was me. myself.

brian: did you feel it at that he was after you? robert: it felt just the opposite. with him alone, it felt that you were safe and the entire world was a threat to a 14-year-old kid that was displaced with nowhere to go. that was the one safe place, in his presence. brian: what was the process that you wanted to write about for esquire magazine? robert: when i told the editors about the story, they felt it was compelling. especially the part about my involvement. when i went to read the story -- write the story, i believe that writers should be like good umpires -- invisible. i took the personal part out of the story. my editor mike said that is the most important part. put it back in. when i put myself back into the

story, that is when the story resonated for people. brian: what happened after that story? what recognition did you get? your first book was in 2004? robert: it really launch my career in terms of magazines and books. i became a finalist for the national magazine of. i got -- award. i got a lot of attention from agents. brian: what did your wife think? robert: she was very happy for me and very supportive. i used to be a lawyer and had better career prospects at the time. but she was behind me the entire way. i could not have done it without her. brian: did you have rough times in the beginning as a writer where you did not have the money to live on? was it ever difficult? robert: i had made a vow at law

school that i would not get the old in handcuffs put on me -- golden handcuffs put on me. a lawyer is a deadening profession in some ways. we all talk about, do not get the mortgage, the bmw. do not bury yourself in debt. i was grateful i stuck to that promise. i had a wife who said, no matter what you are making, if you come home every day, i am happy. brian: your first book sold 600,000 copies. how many more has shadow divers sold since then? robert: i think it is closing in on a million. 22 languages. it has done very well. brian: let's bring the audience up-to-date. let's show a little of that interview from 2004. [video clip]

robert: a friend told me about the story originally added touted too -- it sounded too unbelievable to be true -- two divers finding a german u boat. brian: once someone gave you the idea, what did you do? robert: i got on the phone with the divers, the principal divers, and asked them, could this be true? they said, not only is it true, it is more than that. i asked if i could see them and i was on my way. brian: who were the divers? robert: john chatterton and richie kohler. brian: you lost a lot of weight. robert: i was chubby. brian: how did you do that? robert: i had a doctor tell me i was one step away from diabetes. my dad was overweight and

diabetic. this was five or six years ago. i have two young boys of my own. i remember how painful it was to watch my dad died in front of me. i did not want to inflict that on my family. brian: his mom alive? robert: she died recently. she was a great admirer of yours and had hopes for me. i am grateful she lived to see me have some success. brian: let's go back to the million-seller. what impact did it have on your life? robert: the thing it really did for me is it gave me enough financial security to take a chance on writing books that interested me. i did not need to follow up with a nautical adventure, which is what people were expecting. i was able to take a risk in my next project. it also allowed me to take my time. if i needed to find the right

story or do something over, i did not feel pressured to rush something. brian: economically, this book is selling so well is everything settled down? robert: for the first time, it is settled down. my wife is an attorney. i made one promise -- do not marry the attorney. thankfully, i broke that. so she is contributing and was finding her way at that time too. brian: one of the characters in shadow divers, john chatterton is in the current book. the second book you wrote was "crashing through." here is our interview in 2007. [video clip] brian: how did you find mike may? robert: at the time, he was 50 years old. the only mention of mike was

that he had gained division from a rare stem cell transplant. there was no mention of his emotional state. i had to know what his life was like. i looked up his name and phone number in davis, california and introduced myself. i was ready to hear someone that sounded to be on the verge of suicide. all these cases are filled with reports of suicidal thoughts, fury at the surgeons who cured them. in the best documented case, the person was so disappointed in the visual world, he gave up and died. i expect it to hear someone a different -- desperate straits. but the person sounded extraordinarily busy. i told him i had read about the cases. he politely told me, i am too busy. i do not give up easily, so i kept bothering him.

finally agreed to see me. brian: mike could not see, and you told the story of how he was operated on. have you been in touch? robert: i saw him on friday in san francisco. he is an amazing guy. his eyes are perfect. they worked perfectly. his brain will always be the issue. some things he can do effortlessly -- he can sink free throw after free throw. but if you do not tell him step -- he will step off a 20th floor balcony. brian: in 2007, you said he could not see faces. can he see them now? robert: you cannot see them any better than he did the first time around. if you were sitting as close as you and i and his wife were across the table, he would not know her unless she spoke.

he has facial blindness. his eyes can see the face perfectly but he cannot recognize faces. brian: how did the book do? robert: i do not know the figures. it did not do what shadow divers did. but as i said, i was so grateful to branch out and do something that was not necessarily expected after the first book. i love that book. brian: we have talked in both cases about movies being made. did a movie get made? robert: no, and they are still working on the shadow divers movie 10 or 11 years later. i was so innocent and signed a deal and calculated that it would take three months to find actors, about 10 months until the premier. 10 years later, they are still developing shadow divers. brian: what about crashing through? robert: they worked on it for years at the same studio.

several different writers and producers, but it did not seem to work out. brian: let's go to pirate hunters. the first thing i want to ask you about is why senator john mccain endorsed this book. robert: he is a man of adventure and i think a man who appreciates risktakers and brave souls. brian: does he have the same publisher? robert: i do not think so. brian: did you ask him to do this? robert: i did not, but he endorsed shadow divers. not sure how that happened either. he had the same publisher 10 years ago. i think that is how we made a initial connection. but i was flattered the first time and even more grateful this time around. brian: there is video on the website promoting the book. let's start the process by looking at part of the trailer. [video clip] >> joseph bannister is the only

pirate in history to fight the british navy to a standstill. >> this is unheard of. >> pirates ran and hightailed it. he actually went in for a shot. >> i was working on another book when the phone rang. the person on the other end did not introduce themselves. they just said, do you like pirates? it was john chatterton, the subject of my previous book, shadow divers. >> the thing that attracted me to the golden fleece was the character of joseph bannister. >> up until 1680, joseph bannister was a well-respected english gentleman, noble sea captain. then he stole the golden fleece and turned pirate. brian: can you tell us what book you were working on before john chatterton called? robert: i was working on a military story, trying to put together the pieces of it. a story about heroes.

i am drawn to heroic stories. men at turning points in their lives. but it was not really coming together the right way. it was a vietnam story. some of the pieces were missing. i found myself yearning for the adventure i wrote about the first time around. the phone rang, and it was john chatterton from shadow divers. brian: what did you do? robert: i tried to make excuses. he told me, if you like pirates, come to new jersey. i have like pirates since seven years old, but it was christmas time and there were presence to wrap. but the thing i learned from john chatterton is if there is a window in life, you go. so i packed up, headed east on i-94 to new jersey, to hear the story. brian: how long did you spend with him before you said, i have a book? robert: i was in this steakhouse

for 20 minutes when he told me it was not a pirate story. it was a treasure hunting story. that got me halfway there already. the idea of finding treasure looms large in my imagination. it was not until we were thrown out of the place and standing in the parking lot that he said, we will tell you how we found a pirate ship. he said, the rest will come when you go to santo domingo. but i knew i was in the right place. brian: here is more from the trailer to bring us up-to-date. [video clip] ♪ >> this was the riskiest thing a human being could do in 1680. if you turned pirate and were caught, you would hang. but turn he did. if you learned what he did, you are looking at a completely different life. ♪ >> finding a golden age pirate

ship is the single rarest thing a person could find underwater. history believed they knew where the golden fleece had some, but it was nowhere to be found. >> trying to solve those mysteries is an irresistible challenge. >> we logged the space you just searched, and there's nothing there. brian: has this made a difference? robert: they make these like movie trailers. that is the language of a lot of people. brian: john mattera and john chatterton, this is all they do? robert: they are shipwreck hunters. originally, they were at a crossroads in life. a lot of deepwater exploration.

some of it very dangerous. they saw friends die. but they were at a crossroads. chatterton was approaching 50, and mattera, 60. they were at a crucial point and decided they would find the treasure ships, old spanish treasure ships. that is what they dedicated their lives to. in treasure hunting, it often turns out very bad for the explorer. they almost always go broke or do not find what they were looking for. so it was a big risk. but how could you not do it if it was out there to be found? brian: where does john mattera live? robert: in boca raton, i think. brian: when did you meet matt era: robert: i met him in chicago at a dive show.

he was huge and powerful. he had been one of the highest aid personal bodyguards in america. he picked up a four figure dinner check that looked to be headed my way. i remember that fondly. the next time i saw him was in new jersey, several years later. brian: why do they call you? robert: they knew this discovery -- this was only the second pirate ship ever found and identified -- this was something more than a press release. it is the hardest thing you can find underwater and in the world. they are so rare, to identify someone -- one positively. brian: when was the golden fleece sunk? robert: is that of the best name, by the way? it was sunk in 1686 in a battle

with royal navy warship. the ships were sent after the captain, joseph bannister. the ship was on its side on the beach so the crew could clean its hull. that's when the warships arrived, but they never expected to find what they found in bannister. brian: the word "careening" is in the book a lot. explain what that is. robert: i had no idea what careening matt. -- meant. they had to explain that in the olden days, with wooden ships barnacles would grow on the hull. if you did not clean the hull, barnacles would slow down the ship. pirate ships had to be fast and clean. you had to turn them on their side and scrub the hull. but it left the ship vulnerable.

brian: the book has several stories. we will go to chatterton in the moment when mattera and of the mafia. robert: he grew up in staten island, the son of a hard-working guy. mattera was surrounded by people who did business with the gambino crime family. there was always mafia in the air. he learned of the life of the streets. he was a very streetsmart kid. by the time he was in high school, he had his own money lending operation. he owned at nightclubs. that he was too young by law to enter. it could be he made a wrong turn and chose a life of crime or organized crime. but he had an interesting swerve. brian: what happened? robert: i think he realized if

he went the wrong way, got mixed up with organized crime, it would not end well. she could see around him that the people who were in it almost always ended up in a bad place whether they were buried in the sand flats, in jail, it seemed to end poorly. so he became a beat cop. brian: you have names that are familiar -- john gotti sammy the bull garavano. how close to the get to that? robert: his best friend was the son of a high-ranking again member, who was gunned down in the famous mob hit outside of spark's steakhouse. he knew the players.

it would have been easy for him to get in the world if he had not chosen the right way. brian: the background on john chatterton -- where did you get to meet him? robert: chatterton i met when i heard about the story of shadow divers, the discovery of this lost uboat with 56 dead sailors on board. i was told about the story and it seemed to unbelievable to be true. so i called him out of the blue and asked if he could answer my questions. it seemed he answered every question but the one i never heard answered was the one i cared about -- why would you risk so much? three people died from this over six years. chatterton locked his marriage almost all his money. he came close to dying himself. it was for a three digit number. a footnote to history. no one explained why someone would risk so much for so little. brian: they have done a lot of

television since this happened. robert: chatterton and his partner richie kohler went on to become the host of a series called deep-sea detectives, 57 episodes on the history channel airing nationally. they became quite well known. you can make the argument that chatterton is the most famous scuba diver in the world. brian: you said earlier that john chatterton shared in the profits for shadow divers. did you have the same arrangement with this book? robert: we did not do that arrangement. brian: why not? robert: i was in a different position in my career and he was too. when i met john, he was working as an underwater construction diver. we are now at different places financially and professionally. brian: joseph bannister -- who was he and what role does he play? robert: if the english

historians of the time had the choice, we would never know anything about him. he started his life not as a pirate but a noble english sea captain, a gentleman trusted by shipowners to sa to carry valuable cargo like indigo, sugar, between london and port royal. he did that responsibly. but one day in 1684 for reasons no one can determine, justice bannister stole his own ship, recruited a pirate crew, and turned into a pirate. went on a rampage. brian: what was so special about him? robert: he did things that seemed impossible to do, almost as if he had been created by a hollywood writer. he was caught six weeks into his

first pirate outing. it looked certain that he would be hanged. he was going to make a terrible example of bannister, he was caught red-handed, but bannister bribed witnesses, probably bribed a jury, and looked like he was going to get a free man. that guilty verdict was -- not guilty verdict was so stunning to the governor of jamaica, he was said to have died of shock. the new governor retried him. but bannister again escaped reese stole -- restole the ship, and then went on a rampage for two years. it wasn't until the royal navy battled him, and he defeated the royal navy, then his legend was made. brian: i have some video of a man named tracy bowden. we will show this and then find

out what role he plays in the story. ♪ >> what is it like when you discover treasure that might be a from a can pirate ship? -- drunken pirate ship? >> controlled chaos. i have been doing them for so much of my life, the heart races, breath speeds up. you know you are the first one on the planet being it. it doesn't matter how much money you have or where you are from, the moment, i have never gotten used to that. i'm as excited today as i was 30 years ago. brian: that came from the history museum in louisville. did you meet him? robert: yes, i interviewed him. he is one of the great treasure hunters of all-time. he salvaged three spanish galleons in the dominican republic. he's a legend. brian: what is a galleon?

robert: a spanish treasure ship. brian: how much does the government of any of these countries clay, how does that work? robert: by the time i found it story, dominican republic was only one of a handful of countries that allowed private treasure hunters to work. they allowed them to work to split the salvage with the treasure hunter. they would allow the treasure hunter to divide the pile, and the country would take its pile first hear it brian: what does the united states do with spots off the coast, do they have permits to treasure hu. nt? robert: it depends on how far you go. there are strict controls. you might remember a shipwreck the most valuable found today. worth $600 million in treasury now. the state of florida and government battled the finder

for years, it went to the supreme court. it was the and millions of dollars of effort to try to claim what was rightfully his. brian: to go beyond three miles? robert: then he goes out to 12 miles, there are different rules. when you get into international waters you have a better shot at keeping what you find. but not all of these guys are anxious to alert people when they find things, because there are a lot of regulations. brian: was the american government involved with chatterton or tracy bowden in the dominican republic? robert: no, that is the dominicans' province. they least rights to waters to tracy, and building allowed chatterton to work in those waters. brian: when did they begin looking for "the golden fleece?" robert: they began in 2008. brian: there was an admiral.

a retired admiral. robert: she married a dominican women -- he married a dominican woman. he was able to give them a lot of information. but more than that, he sounded warnings to them. that the days of private treasure hunting might be coming to a close. that the dominican government might be considering signing on to unesco agreements or prohibiting private treasure hunters. the clock was ticking on this. these two guys promised never to let anything get in the way of the treasure hunt, but here came the opportunity to find a pirate ship, but they had to do it fast for they were kicked out and before it disappeared forever. brian: where does the money come from for all this? robert: that's always the biggest question with private hunters. they often get investors to fund exploration, because it is extremely expensive to go out of country, run a ship, hire a crew, by the equipment.

i think they spent a couple hundred thousand just on site scan sonar. they spent $25,000 on a custom software package. there is an $80,000 underwater roving vehicle. this is not your average person looking in water up to your knees. this is serious expensive business. brian: why did they want to do this in the first place, and where do they get tips? robert: matera has been a lover of history. it's my theory that caused him to go the right way in life. you can find him in a library or rare book dealer, looking for information on historic shipwrecks. when he married a dominican women and lived in the dominican republic, they pulled out books from the archives that had not been opened for centuries. he believed if a person looked hard enough and invested all of himself, he could find a treasure ship of his own.

he had not seen chatterton for 25 years. he had a chance encounter. he told him that information. chatterton was in immediately. brian: when you were here for "shadowdivers" chatterton, his marriage was falling apart. robert: he had a successful marriage to another woman that endured until recently, from what i'm told. but it is a good look at how difficult this life can be on a relationship. these guys to go diving and searching, especially dangerous shipwrecks, there is a lot of stress in their life and on people who love them. you never know if they are coming back on any given day. to date, chatterton has seen nine or 10 fatalities. brian: how are they killed? robert: often they die by having explosive decompression they get a buildup of nitrogen very deep in the water. they either run out of air and come up too fast, or panic and

come up too fast. often it is from shooting to the surface and getting a taste of the bends. brian: the interesting connection, you at eight years old had to hold that heard those stories from your father. and natera cared about that at eight years old. now you have come together. robert: that's true if you talk to tracy bowden. you love stories. if you only care about the loot, you will not last long. it is too hard to do it just for the stuff. you had to in love with stories and the idea of these historical figures coming to life before you. otherwise you won't stay with it. brian: since you started writing and researching how many days where you out of your hometown of chicago doing research? robert: i went to the dominican republic twice for a week or we can have. and then out to florida and new jersey and new york for several weeks, not just to interview

subjects but to do my own research, filling the holes and backup the research and they did. it was a good time away. brian: well is the best source for you? i know you read a ton of books on pirates. robert: there was one historian only one, who really knew anything about the pirate joseph banister. his name was whitewashed by the english officials. i'm not certain, but that's my guess. it is hard to find information. there is one historian, and absurd -- oxford educated man who worked on decades for stories of port royal, jamaica. by the time i came across his name and figured out he could tell me more than anyone in the world, from any century about joseph banister, i thought it will be a miracle if i could find him. he lived in jamaica for decades. i typed his name into a computer hoping he was still alive. only one name popped up.

it was 12 minutes from my home. in chicago. within 45 minutes, i was eating lunch with him across the table at jack's restaurant. brian: he's still alive? robert: he is. he is one of the kindest smartest gentleman i had never met. he was crucial to the putting together of the story. brian: what are the chances he was living in chicago? robert: i tried to copulate that it goes into many powers. if i had not met him or he had not done the work, i don't think this would have happened. brian: give us an idea of what he told you. robert: he had done research not just on port royal but on joseph banister himself. he had done this incredible thing of writing a jury and stealing his own ship. but the best thing he did was uncovered the journal of an eyewitness who was aboard one of the royal navy ships that fought to banister. he uncovered an eyewitness account.

without that, none of this could have been put together. without him finding the eyewitness a literate man, a mathematician, a beautiful writer took account of the whole thing. he kept writing and drawing. it's a gift. brian: how has your writing changed since you began? robert: i tried to get out of the way more, and trying to be more like the baseball umpire and not be seen. i don't know how effective i am. but i tried. i try to please remind myself to show, don't tell. i'm guilty of it, but i'm trying to be less guilty of it. that is mostly what's on my mind. brian: how many drafts do you do on a book like this? robert: probably three or four.

but i spend the bulk of my time structuring the book. that takes an even more time than it does to write here it i put it best. i put together the structure of the book. then i get into the writing and it comes easy. brian: where have you been on to her? robert:-- on tour? robert: up and down the east coast. brian: what is a question you are asked at bookstores, that seems to come over time? robert: everybody wants to know what amount of treasure was found aboard the pirate ship. you get that from the little tiny kids all the way to octogenarians. everyone wants to know what treasure. it was fascinating. i put photos in the book. the artifacts are even better than the treasure. there is a cereal bowl that is still half filled with porridge. the whole whole of the ship is perfectly preferred -- hull of

the ship is perfectly preserved. but that amazing thing is it is about the rarity and historic nature. brian: how much did tracy bowden raised and how much was he involved? robert: he had been working for 30 years in the dominican republic, going after treasure ships. he deserves a lot of credit for knowing about the story and wanting to get the ship. but he put chatterton to work on the ship. as rare as a spanish italian is, a parish it is more so. he wanted to team up with guys to find this. it wasn't that expensive of a opposition at first, because people had a pretty good idea of where it might need. -- b. it seemed this would be an easy endeavor. brian: you point out that he was wrong where the ship was. robert: not just tracy, but

history itself. there is a napoleonic era map that labeled an island as bannister island. everybody thought it would be found at this place. they were wrong. that is what makes this an interesting story. if they just went out and find it -- founded in two weeks, there would not be much of a story to tell. it seems all of history was wrong. the question was, where do you look? in order to do that, chatterton had to stop looking for the ship and look for banister, the heart of the man. brian: is there anybody in the u.s. government that keeps track of where ship are around the world? robert: i don't know. that's a great question. certainly they would have little idea of pirate ships erie it were supposed to be stealth operations. they never filed manifests. no governments at the time when looking for them. they didn't even really know

about them. i'm sure there are agencies and historians to keep track of ships. but i'm much less certain of pirate ships. brian: you have any idea of how many shipwrecks there are around the world? robert: i think in the imagination it is much greater than the actual number. the shipwrecks called to these guys. there's a lot of them. brian: if we knew right now how many people were looking around the world, how many with the numbered be --number be? robert: there is a lower number for looking for shipwrecks in general. government make a lot of regulations that prohibit salvage once you find it. it's hard to say how many people are looking, but it's a pretty small community. if you're talking about deepwater shipwrecks, it's even smaller. the people capable of diving are very small. brian: a little more video showing the things you have been talking about from the trailer.

then we come back and continue. [video clip] >> what started as an interesting idea soon manifested into an all-out obsession. >> i knew we had to think like bannister would have been thinking. that was the key to finding it. >> we uncovered the hull in its entirety, and we took a collective wrath. never have we ever seen anything like that. the things they started to pull off of their, weapons, knives daggers, tell you you are looking at a golden age pirate ship. >> we people up a dinner boat that had fossilized porridge in it from some guys last meal before the battle. we knew we had it. it was the first time all the pieces of the puzzle fit together perfectly. brian: what about a movie? robert: i hope so. it has been optioned for screen.

but this time, i have not calculated it will be out in a few months. fingers crossed. brian: for a writer like you, is that a good thing -- a lot of money come back to you? robert: it is more money if they and up making the movie. but for me it isn't one of the fun times, -- it is one of the most fun times. because it is gratifying to know it speaks to me people. brian: the narrative is almost like fiction. if there is something you don't want the audience to know before they read the book, what would it be? robert: something i don't want them to know? brian: that you would rather have them read it. robert: the greatest challenge and what made this very challenging, it did not matter to them if they found the ship. they had to prove its identity. finding it would be worse if

they cannot prove its identity. to do that, they knew it was going to be virtually impossible. they almost needed a miracle to occur. for a guy like patterson especially -- chatters and especially, to risk his life, it would be worse than death. he had to know. knowing it would be almost impossible to prove it was only like his own suicide mission. and yet, he does it. that is how i would like people to read it. brian: i have to say, my biggest surprise was on page 245. to matera, bannister's calling was democracy but what mattered most was bannister had answered. the last thing i expected to come out of this book was democracy. explain that. robert: me too. i would have put that word last. but it's true.

when they looked into pirate and piracy, they discovered that pirate ships were among the first democracies. a concept that would not take hold in america until hundred more years. the lowliest man on board voted and it counted the same as the captain's vote. it voted on everything, where to go, what to steal. every vote counted the same. the captain did not get a morsel more to eat then the lowliest guy. for two guys trying to figure out why a man like joseph bannister would risk so much, this idea started to speak louder and louder. this guy had to have become intoxicated with this incredible idea of freedom, and totally quality aboard where everybody decided where they went. and you did not speak to both the shipowners or anyone else. brian: how big was the ship? robert: 100 feet long, 30 cannons, a crew of about 100. brian: what was it made of?

robert: mostly with. it had iron cannons and anchors. that is what they looked for. brian: how did joseph bannister die? robert: officially, they finally tracked him down to the mosquito coast. after a brief battle, they took him and some of his men prisoner and sailed him back to port royal. but when they got near that, rather than charging them as english law required, they hanged joseph bannister and his cohorts from the yardarm of one of the navy ships in front of the people, cut off his body, and put in the sea. chatter since -- chatterson and matera don't necessarily believe that. he had humiliated the english government. they wanted to know if he disappeared into the ether.

brian: what do the british do now about bannister? robert: they stopped talking about him in the 16 80's after the story ended. it makes sense. there's lots of correspondence to the governor of jamaica about what a scourge and embarrassment he had been. i don't think they wanted to talk about him. brian: as they were searching for the golden fleece, the ship, how deep did they expect it to be in the water? robert: history said it would be found at 24 feet here at much different than the u-boat, at 230 feet. six months after the battle when the pirate ship sank, the people who had seen the wreck, said there was the muskets and it would be in 24 feet of water. it made it seem like it should be an easy search. brian: how deep was it? robert: 24 feet. brian: where? robert: a small island in samana

bay, one of the most beautiful pieces -- places. you see that and you know you are dealing with a great pirate. brian: what did they find? robert: the entire ship, buried under four feet of mud and silt hearing with a freshwater stream, the entire hall was -- hull was intact. you can see the beads as brightly colored today as when the pirates wove them into their beard and hair. brian: once they found it, by the way, how many people were looking? robert: just chatterton and matera and bowed. but once word got out then other treasure hunting outfits appeared. they did not necessarily admit to what they were looking for, but it is pretty obvious given

where they were anchored and when they showed up. brian: then what happened after they found it? robert: a big celebration. and then the salvage begins. it is their job to perfectly preserve things. that is when the dominican government sends an official, an archaeologist, who watches every bead it is catalogued and put into the ministry of culture. finally after the salvage is done, they put it back where it lay originally. brian: did they take it out of the water? robert: no, that would ruin it immediately. these guys are about history. they don't want to mess up. there is worry about private hunters that they don't care about preserving it. but in my experience, nothing could be further from the truth. it is buried again under the mud. brian: are they still working on it? robert: no, it is almost complete. it is back under. you can see swimmers and tourists going right over it.

they have no idea they are over history. brian: have they done a lot of video? robert: yes. it is very interesting to watch. it is not the kind of video you or i might make. it is archaeological. they are trying to preserve where things are. it is about distance. it is not as beautiful as we might shoot it. brian: i always ask you about the next book. this one took eight years. robert: i got to it about three and a half years ago. i was doing screenwriting in between, and other investigating. since i started working on this book i compared myself to a treasure hunter. i am always looking for something great. but it takes time. these guys went a long time between -- part of the java have to get used to is it may take a while. brian: when did you finish? robert: it was finished about a

year ago and then it went into final editing, and then promotion. it takes a lot of time. brian: are you on to your next book? robert: i have something than looking at. i'm not quite ready to discuss yet. brian: would you ever admit you are looking at something? robert: when i'm in the middle of it, i do. i don't in the early days, often because those ideas will fizzle out, and i don't want to get too excited, or other people too interesting -- interested. brian: you told us amy is a lawyer. what kind? robert: she does government work in chicago. zoning and land use and lobbying. she's in the thick of one of the most interesting political places in the world. brian: how old are your quick dash kits? robert: 13 and nine. brian: are they interested in storytelling? robert: they are great storytellers. i tell you a story, you tell me a story.

we try to do what i did. brian: what did they tell you? robert: they tell me about things that happen in school they make up stories sometimes. brian: when you look back at how difficult it was for you, at home and then in high school and getting grades, what is the moral of this story? robert: for me, it is to stay at something, and not to settle for being unhappy. i could have settled into an unhappy life. i was not having a good time as a lawyer. i figured, this is not how to spend the next 50 years of my life, no matter what the money was. i believed in myself. in a crazy way probably. even when i was struggling in high school and they were recommending al qaeda drastic measures, that i should -- all kinds of drastic measures, that i should get therapy, i had a feeling that i would be ok. brian: have you ever been back to glenbrook high school?

robert: once or twice. they made me alumni of the year if you can believe it. my pictures hanging next to pictures of people who actually deserve it. a couple of times. brian: what do you think of being a writer? robert: in a lot of ways it is a dream. i get to go on these adventures with interesting people. i get to stay for two or three years. but i don't have to stay forever. then i get to move on to another world. it's great. in other ways, it's lonely. i work by myself. i have a home office. i.e. lunch by myself every day. i miss the days when i was in an office and could round up a couple of people and rapid by deed. brian: by the way anyone who wants to read, you can go to google and find the esquire article. you doing anymore for them? robert: i haven't in a few years, but i'm grateful. they helped make my career. brian: first, "shadowdivers"

and the third book, "pirate hunters: treasure, obsession and the search for a legendary pirate ship". robert kurson, thank you very much. robert: thank you so much. >> for free transcripts or to give us your comments about this program, visit us at q and a.org. they are also available as c-span podcast. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> "q&a." -- if you enjoyed this week "q&a."," there are others available.

simon winchester discussing atlantic, the history of the atlantic ocean. you can watch these anytime or search the entire video library at c-span.org. >> on the next washington journal, two former officials of the centers for medicare and medicaid services market medicare safety is anniversary with a look at how it is working today. robert dickey from the alzheimer's association talked about how medicare spending will be impacted by the expected rise in alabama's cases by 2050. as always, we take your calls and you can join the conversation on facebook and twitter. live at 7 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> the republican presidential candidates are in manchester new hampshire, with the first presidential forum at monday --

on monday at 7 p.m. eastern. c-span is providing live coverage on c-span, c-span radio and c-span.org. the union leader along with media organizations from the early caucus and primary states are sponsoring. following the live for him, you can provide your input by joining the call in program or adding comments on facebook and twitter. wrote to the white house when he 16 on c-span, c-span radio and c-span.org. >> next, presidential candidate hillary clinton, jeb bush, bernie sanders, ben carson and martin o'malley speak at the urban league convention. and another chance to see "q&a." with robert kurson, author of the book "pirate hunters: treasure, obsession, and the search for a legendary pirate ship". >> the british parliament is in recess until september. prim