of the various hacks that have taken place out there, if we could globally share that information than 11 hack occurs place, hopefully at network speed we can widely share that vulnerability and protect everyone. >> monday night at 8:00 eastern on the communicators on c-span-. ♪ >> this week on "q&a," robert kurson discusses his book, "pirate hunters" and the search for the ship the golden fleece, sunk off the coast of the dominican republic in the 1680's. the captain, joseph bannister, was a respected merchant captain before he stole the golden fleece and became a pirate. robert kurson also talked about

his work as a journalist and author. brian: robert kurson, author of "pirate hunters," here for the third time. this is your third book. before we talk about pirate hunters, i want you to tell us about your father and his storytelling. robert: my father was the single greatest storyteller i have ever known. he owned his own motorcycle paints and lubricants business when we were young. sometimes he had decent years, sometimes he didn't. but he functioned as its sole traveling salesman. so he was on the road for nine , or 10 months out of the year by car. we grew up feeling like we knew him, did not grow up feeling fatherless. my dad would call me out of school. sometimes for weeks at a time -- can you imagine such a dream for a kid? and he would take me on business trips across the united states. and it was all by car, all over the united states. so by the time i was eight or , nine, i had been to all 48 continental states by car to industrial parks. i knew more about oil viscosity and high-temp paint than any eight-year-old in the country.

but we would pass the time , during these long stretches by telling stories. he would tell me made-up stories, true stories, sometimes a mixture of each. he was the single greatest weaver of yarns you could imagine. there was always one condition -- if he told you a story, you told him one. brian: can you remember one of his stories? robert: he had a series of stories about two fictional bad boys named marvin and arvin. these two guys would get into all kinds of trouble. but, if you can imagine a story about two very bad boys who missed a lot of school and went on trips with their very bad father, these stories could stretch from state to state. the chapters would often run interstate. and, they were terrific stories. on, he would tell me true stories about buying a copper mine when he graduated from college, and his adventures in

mexico running a copper mine as a 22-year-old kid. i could listen to these for weeks at a time. brian: do you have brothers and sisters? robert: i have a sister that is 1.5 years younger than i am and a brother who is five years younger. brian: your mom was a storyteller? robert: wonderful storyteller. that is part of what they loved about each other and had in common. the thing about both of them is that they were sensitive people and noticed everything. their entire worlds they saw were in shades of gray. there was no black and white. they would notice things that made others sad or could affect others emotionally that no one else seemed to see. they would say, look closely. see that person? that person is suffering inside or does not know what to do. at first glance, that person would look like anyone else. but when they told you what to look for, see how their eyes are moving, they noticed everything. that was at the bottom of what made their stories great. brian: do you notice everything? robert: i try to notice everything, and it is a double-edged sword. when you grow up with two people who notice everything, you start to notice things yourself, but

they include the sad and happy things. it is a vibrant world you live in when you notice, but it can be upsetting sometimes too. brian: we have not talked about this -- but you have talked about the difficulties you had in high school. you got d's and f's. robert: i was a very poor student, ranked 606 out of 660 in my class in northbrook, illinois. it looked very bad for me. the safety schools others were applying to were my first choices, and i did not even get into those. my guidance counselor at my high school advised me not to even bother with college or even community college. rather to enroll in the peace corps. i was so naive, i did not know what the peace corps was. it was looking bad for me at age 18. brian: what was the problem you had with high school and some of the kids in high school had with you?

robert: i had moved a few days before high school started. i went from a solidly middle-class neighborhood to a very upper-class neighborhood. i did not quite fit in right away and never connected with the kids. there was some kind of dysfunction happening at home, too, that was difficult on me emotionally. all of the factors came together in a confluence of circumstances that did not make for a productive four years there. brian: was that dysfunction between your mother and father? robert: they had a troubled marriage at that point, even though they loved and admired each other. but my mother was suffering a little bit emotionally at the time. it was not the most stable household. it was interesting. i do not think there was anyone in the history of my high school that did as poorly as i did academically but was in no trouble whatsoever.

i did not do any drugs. i did not drink a single beer. nothing like that. i did not miss any school. i was just hurting in a certain way brian: we talked before about you went to the university of wisconsin, studied philosophy, went to harvard law school, practice law for a while didn't , like it. then you got into the writing business. one of the things that got you attention was "my favorite teacher," an article for "esquire." robert: it was about the biology teacher at glenbrook high school in northbrook, illinois, who was a very kind, gentle man. he seemed to see the loneliness and others walking around. especially in students. and there were plenty of lonely students, more than i really realized at the time for job there were those of us that felt disconnected from everything and were having trouble at home, felt lonely in the world. he seemed to see that in us. he noticed everything too. he was very kind to the lost

souls of the school. where everyone seemed to have it made at least on the surface. , and people gravitated towards him and trusted him. he was not just the biology teacher -- he was also the athletic trainer. i would see him in the locker room, taping up members of the football team and things like that. but it turned out, one day, he did not come to school. there was an announcement he would not be there. by that time, all the radio and tv in chicago was announcing his arrest for the murder and rape of the son of a chicago policeman. it turns out it was not his first kidnapping and abduction. he had a sophisticated way of picking up hitchhikers. he had tried to stop himself and resigned his post because he intended to go after his own students. and so, on the 20th anniversary, i always thought about him, as disturbing as that might sound, i thought of him fondly, and i

always wondered how that might happen to such a gentle man. i went and found him in prison. i asked him all of the questions i had been wondering for 20 years. he was serving a life sentence. brian: what was he like? robert: as gentle and nice as i remembered him. he was remorseful, as he always had been. i had read court transcripts. he explained terrible things had gone wrong with him. he had a rare genetic disorder with an extra chromosome, i believe. he developed in certain ways, physiologically, as a woman. it was a very complex, complicated situation. but he knew what he was doing and that it was getting worse and worse. he had resigned his position and he had planned to take himself into the wilderness in montana, so far that he could never do these things again. but this thing got away from him and he was finally caught and sentenced. brian: i calculate he would be 71 today. is he still alive? robert: i believe he is still alive. i saw him twice in prison. after our second visit, he cut off contact. but i learned one of the

students he may have had his eye on was me. myself. and that is sort of the theme at the end of the story then i wrote. -- that i wrote. brian: did you feel it at the time, that he was after you? robert: no, it felt just the opposite. with him alone, it felt that you were safe, and the entire world was a threat to a 14-year-old kid that was displaced and -- the one safe place. i was lonely and felt there was nowhere to go. that was the one safe place, in his presence. brian: what was the process that you wanted to write about for "esquire" magazine? robert: when i told the editors about the story, they felt it was compelling. especially the part about my involvement were important. when i went to write the story, i believed that good writers should be like good umpires -- invisible. when you get to the end, you haven't noticed them. so, i took the personal part out of the story.

my editor, mike warren, said, that is the most important part. put it back in. that is what you told me the first time. when i put myself back into the story, that is when the story came together and resonated for people. brian: what happened after that story? what recognition did you get? your first book was in 2004. was any of that related? robert: it really launched my writing career in terms of magazines and books. it was the first story i had written and became a finalist for the national magazine award. i got a lot of attention and interest from agents. brian: what did your wife think? robert: she was very happy for me and very supportive. you know when you decide -- i used to be a lawyer and had better career prospects at the time than i had jumping into writing. but she was behind me the entire way. i could not have done it without her. she believed in me. brian: did you have rough times in the beginning as a writer, 2000 and that time period, where you did not have the money to

live on? i mean, was it ever difficult for you? robert: it was hard to live on, but i made a vow at law school that i would not get the golden handcuffs put on me. a lot of people i went to law school vowed, we will not make our living as lawyers. it just seemed a deadening profession, in certain ways. but the thing we all talked about was, do not get the mortgage, the bmw. do not bury yourself in debt. because that was how you got trapped. the one thing i am so grateful i stuck to was that promise. i did not have high overhead. i had a wife who said, no matter what you are making, if you come home every day, i am happy. brian: your first book sold 600,000 copies at that point. how many more has "shadow divers" sold since then? robert: i think it is closing in on a million now. many languages, about 22 languages. it has done very well. brian: let's bring the audience

up-to-date. let's show a little of that interview from 2004. [video clip] robert: a friend told me about the story originally -- it sounded too unbelievable to be true -- two new jersey recreational divers finding a german u boat off the new jersey coast. i could not believe it. it started from there. brian: once someone gave you the idea, what did you do then? robert: i got on the phone with the divers, the two principal divers behind the story, and asked them, could this be true? they said, not only is it true, it is even more than that. i asked if i could see them and they agreed, and i was on my way. brian: who were the divers? robert: john chatterton and richie kohler. bus new jersey residents who had made this amazing discovery. brian: you lost a lot of weight. robert: i was chubby then. brian: how did you do that? robert: i had a doctor tell me i

was one step away from diabetes. my dad died from being overweight and diabetic. this was five or six years ago. i have two young boys of my own. i remember how painful it was to watch my dad die in front of me. i did not want to inflict that on my family. brian: is mom alive? robert: she died recently. a year and a half ago. she was a great admirer of yours and had hopes for me. i am grateful she lived to see me have some success. brian: let's go back to the million-seller. what impact did it have on your life? robert: it changed everything. the thing it really did for me is it gave me enough financial security to take a chance on writing other kinds of books that interested me. i did not need to follow up with a nautical adventure, which is what people were expecting. i was able to take a risk in my next project. it also allowed me to take my

time. so that if i needed to find the right story or do something over, i did not feel pressured to rush something. that is a very big gift for a writer. brian: economically, in 2004, this book is selling so well, is everything settled down? you don't have to worry about it anymore? robert: for the first time, it is settled down. my wife is an attorney. i made one promise in life -- do not marry an attorney. luckily, i broke that. so she is contributing to the family and was finding her way at that time too. that was a nice transition point for us as a family. brian: one of the characters in "shadow divers," john chatterton, is in the current book. the second book you wrote was "crashing through." here is our interview in 2007. [video clip] brian: how did you find mike may? how old was he? robert: at the time, he was 50 or 51-years-old.

the only mention of mike may was that he had gained division from a rare and revolutionary stem cell transplant. there was no mention of his emotional state. and so, i had to know what this person had gone through and what his life was like. basically, i just looked up his name and phone number, found him in davis, california and introduced myself. i was ready to hear someone that sounded to be on the verge of suicide. all these cases are filled with reports of suicidal thoughts, clawing at the eyes, fury at the surgeons who cured them. reverting to dark rooms and blindfolds. and in the best documented case, the person was so disappointed in the visual world, he gave up and died. so i expected to hear someone in , desperate straits. instead, the person sounded extraordinarily busy. i introduced myself, told him i had read about the cases, and had to know about his life. he politely told me, no, thanks, i am too busy.

i do not give up easily, so i kept bothering him. he finally agreed to see me. brian: mike may could not see, and you told the story of how he was operated on and learned to see. have you been in touch? robert: i saw him on friday in san francisco. he is an amazing guy. his eyes are perfect. they work perfectly. but his brain will always be the , issue. some things he can do expertly, he can sink free throw after free throw, he can catch a ball, ride a bike. but if you do not tell him, he might step off a 20th floor balcony, because he cannot judge depth. but he is always learning shortcuts, and he is always training his brain to see around limitations. brian: in 2007, you said he could not see faces. can he see them now? robert: he cannot see them any better than he did the first time around.

if he were sitting as close as you and i and his wife were across the table, he would not know her unless she spoke. so, he has facial blindness. his eyes can see the face perfectly, but he cannot recognize faces. they have no meaning to him. brian: how did the book do? robert: i do not know the figures. it did not do what "shadow divers" did. i was afraid of that. but as i said, i was so grateful to branch out and do something that was not necessarily expected after the first book. and i love that book. ,it has meant a lot to a lot of people. brian: we have talked, in both cases, about movies being made. did a movie ever get made of either book? robert: no, and they are still working on the "shadow divers" movie 10 or 11 years later. i was so innocent and signed a deal and calculated that it would take three months to find actors, about 10 months until the premiere. well here we are 10 years later, , and they are still developing "shadow divers." brian: what about "crashing through"?

robert: it does not look like it now. they worked on it for years at the same studio. several different writers and producers, but it did not seem to work out. brian: let's go to the new book, "pirate hunters." the first thing i want to ask you about is why senator john mccain endorsed this book. robert: he is a man of adventure and i think a man who appreciates risk-takers and brave souls. brian: does he have the same publisher? robert: i do not think so. brian: did you ask him to do this? robert: i did not, but he endorsed "shadow divers." the first time around. and, i'm not sure how that happened either. actually, i do know. he had the same publisher 10 years ago. i think that is how we made an initial connection. but i was flattered the first time and even more grateful this time around. brian: there is video on the website promoting the book. let's start the process by looking at part of the trailer. [video clip]

>> joseph bannister is the only pirate in history to fight the british navy to a standstill. not one, but two royal navy frigates. >> this is unheard of. >> pirates ran and hightailed it. he actually fired the first shot. ♪ robert: i was working on another book idea when the phone rang. the person on the other end did not introduce themselves. they just said, do you like pirates? i knew the voice right away. it was john chatterton, the subject of my previous book, "shadow divers." >> the thing that attracted me to the golden fleece was the character of joseph bannister. robert: up until 1680, joseph bannister was a well-respected english gentleman, noble sea captain. and then one day, he stole his own ship, the golden fleece and turned pirate. brian: can you tell us what book you were working on before john

chatterton called? robert: i was working on a military story, trying to put together the pieces of it. a story about heroes. i am drawn to heroic stories. men at turning points in their lives. but it was not really coming together the right way. it was a vietnam story. some of the pieces were missing. i found myself yearning for the adventure i wrote about the first time around. the phone rang, and it was john chatterton from "shadow divers"" a screenwriter could not have put it together any better. brian: what did you do? robert: i tried to make excuses. in the beginning. and he told me, if you like pirates, come to new jersey. of course i have liked pirates , since seven years old, but it was christmas time and there were presents to wrap. but the thing i learned from john chatterton is if there is a window in life, you go. even if the window is open just a tiny bit. so i packed up, got in my car, headed east on i-94 to new jersey, to hear the story. brian: how long did you spend

with him before you said, i have a book? robert: i was in this steakhouse for 20 minutes when he told me it was not a pirate story. it was a treasure hunting story. that got me halfway there already. the idea of finding treasure looms large in my imagination. it was not until we were thrown out of the place and standing in the freezing parking lot that he said, we will tell you how we found a golden age pirate ship. he said, the rest will come when you go to santo domingo. we will tell you the rest of the story. but i knew i was in the right place. brian: here is more from the trailer to bring us up-to-date. [video clip] ♪ >> this was the riskiest thing a human being could do in 1680. if you turned pirate and were caught, you would hang. but turn he did. if you learned what he did, you are looking at him in a completely different light. ♪

>> finding a golden age pirate ship is the single rarest thing a person could find underwater. history believed it knew where the golden fleece had sunk, but it was nowhere to be found. the question became, where was it? >> trying to solve those mysteries is an irresistible challenge. >> in treasure hunting, x never marks the spot. it marks the space you just searched, and there's nothing there. brian: in your first book, was there video like this? robert: no such thing back then. brian: has this made a difference? robert: they make these like movie trailers. that is the language of a lot of people. you connect to something in three minutes like that, and they did a compelling job. brian: john mattera and john chatterton, this is all they do? robert: they are shipwreck hunters. originally, they were at a crossroads in life.

they had done a lot of deepwater shipwreck exploration. some of it very dangerous. they saw friends die. both of them. but they were at a crossroads. chatterton was approaching 50, and mattera, 60. they were at a crucial point and decided they would find the treasure ships, old spanish treasure ships. what could be more exciting than that? historic ships. and so that is what they , dedicated their lives to. it is very risky. in treasure hunting, it often turns out very bad for the explorer. they almost always go broke or do not find what they were looking for. so it was a big risk. they pledged all of their time and money to it. but how could you not do it if it was out there to be found? brian: where does john mattera live? robert: in boca raton, i think. brian: when did you meet mattera? the fellow with less hair.

robert: i met him in chicago at a dive show. i remember two things about him. one, he was huge and powerful. he had been one of the highest paid personal bodyguards in america. you shook his hand and knew that was true. and secondly he picked up a , four-figure dinner check that looked to be headed my way. i remember that fondly. the next time i saw him was in new jersey, several years later. that's where they told me the pirate story. brian: why did they call you? robert: they knew this discovery -- this was only the second pirate ship ever found and positively identified -- this was something more than a press release. it is the hardest thing you can find underwater and in the world. they are so rare, to identify one positively. almost impossible. i think they wanted the story told in a big way. brian: when was the golden fleece sunk? robert: is that not the best name, by the way? the golden fleece.

it was sunk in 1686 in a battle with two royal navy warships. the governor of jamaica sent the warships after the captain, joseph bannister. he had a very good chance of sinking the ship. the ship was on the careen, on its side on the beach so the crew could clean its hull. that's when the warships arrived, but they never expected to find what they found in bannister and his crew. brian: the word "careening" is in the book a lot. explain what that is. robert: i had no idea what careening meant. the guys said, the only reason they even got close to the golden fleece was a cushy was on the careen. they had to explain that in the olden days, with wooden ships, barnicle's wedding he right through and also slow down the ship.

they had to explain that in the olden days, with wooden ships, barnacles would grow on the hull. if you did not clean the hull, barnacles would slow down the ship. pirate ships had to be fast and clean. you had to turn them on their side and scrub the hull. but it left the ship very vulnerable. brian: the book has several stories. we will go to chatterton in a moment, but mattera and the mafia. robert: he grew up in staten island, the son of a butcher shop owner, honest guy, hard-working guy. worked 16-hour days six days a week. mattera was surrounded by people who did business with the gambino crime family. and so there was always mafia in the air. he learned of the life of the streets. he was a very streetsmart kid. by the time he was in high school, he had his own money-lending operation. he owned nightclubs that he was too young by law to enter. it could have been he made a wrong turn and chosen a life of crime or organized crime.

but he had an interesting swerve. brian: how did it happen? robert: i think he realized if he went the wrong way, got mixed up with organized crime, it wasn't going to end well. he could see around him that the people who were in it almost always ended up in a bad place, whether they were buried in the sand flats, in jail, it seemed most often to end poorly. so he did what nobody expected he would do, and that is he , became a beat cop. brian: you have names that are familiar -- john gotti, sammy the bull gravano. john bilotti. how close did he get to that? robert: his best friend was john bilotti, the son of a high-ranking gambino member, who was gunned down in the famous mob hit outside of sparks steakhouse.

he knew the players. it would have been easy for him to get in the world if he had not chosen the right way. brian: the background on john chatterton -- where did you get to meet him? robert: chatterton i met when i heard about the story of "shadow divers," the discovery of this lost u boat with 56 dead sailors on board. i was told about the story and it seemed to unbelievable to be true. as i said, i called him out of the blue and asked if he could answer my questions. it seemed he answered every question but the one i never heard answered was the one i cared about -- why would you risk so much? three people died from this over six years. diving this wreck. marriage, lost his almost all his money. he came close to dying himself.

it was for a three digit number. a footnote to history. no one explained why someone would risk so much for so little. that is what i wanted to know. brian: they have done a lot of television since this happened. robert: chatterton and his partner richie kohler went on to become the host of a series called "deep-sea detectives," 57 episodes on the history channel, airing nationally. they became quite well known. you can make the argument that chatterton is the most famous living scuba diver in the world. brian: you said earlier that john chatterton shared in the profits for shadow divers. did you have the same arrangement with this book? robert: we did not do that arrangement. brian: why not? robert: i was in a different position in my career and he was too. when i met john, he was working as an underwater construction diver. we are now at different places financially and professionally. we did not need to make that arrangement.

brian: joseph bannister -- who was he and what role does he play in this book? robert: if the english historians of the time had the choice, we would never know anything about him. he started his life not as a pirate but a noble english sea captain, a gentleman, trusted by shipowners to sail the golden fleece between london and port royal, which was known as the wickedest city on earth. and to carry valuable cargo between london and port royal. for years, he did that responsibly and no bully. but then, for reasons no one could determine, he stole the ship and recruited a crew and turned into a pirate. he went on a pirate rampage. brian: what was so special about him?

robert: he did things that no one else could do. almost as if it had been written by hollywood writer. the public was certain he would hang. was quoted as saying he was going to hang. there were witnesses against him. it appears that bannister arrived in the jury will stop and looked like he was going to be a free man. so not guilty judgment was stunning to the governor of jamaica, he was said to have died of shock. the new governor retried him. but bannister again escaped, restole the ship, and then went on a rampage for two years. it wasn't until the royal navy battled him, and he defeated the royal navy, then his legend was made. not one ship but too, and possible.

two. impossible. brian: i have some video of a man named tracy bowden. we will show this and then find out what role he plays in the story. ♪ >> what is it like when you discover treasure that might be a sunken pirate ship? >> controlled chaos. i have been doing them for so much of my life, the heart races, breath speeds up. you know you are the first one on the planet seeing it. it doesn't matter how much money you have or where you are from, the moment, i have never gotten used to that. i'm as excited today as i was 30 years ago. the first week i am there folded out of the ocean. brian: that came from the history museum in louisville. did you meet him? robert: yes, i interviewed him. he is one of the great treasure hunters of all-time. he salvaged three spanish galleons in the dominican republic. he's a legend.

brian: what is a galleon? robert: a spanish treasure ship. brian: how much does the government of any of these countries play. how does that work? robert: by the time i found it story, dominican republic was only one of a handful of countries that allowed private treasure hunters to work. they allowed them to work to split the salvage with the treasure hunter. they would allow the treasure hunter to divide the pile, and the country would take its pile first. brian: what does the united states do with spots off the coast, do they have permits to treasure hunt? robert: it depends on how far you go. there are strict controls.

you might remember a shipwreck, the most valuable found today. worth $600 million in treasury now. the state of florida and government battled the finder for years, it went to the supreme court. where fisher finally prevailed. but it was years and and millions of dollars of effort to try to claim what was rightfully his. brian: to go beyond three miles? robert: then he goes out to 12 miles, there are different rules. when you get into international waters, you have a better shot at keeping what you find. but not all of these guys are anxious to alert people when they find things, because there are a lot of regulations. a lot of roles involved. brian: was the american government involved with chatterton or tracy bowden in the dominican republic? robert: no, that is the dominicans' province. it was strictly a situation where the dominican government to waterstain rights to tracy bowden, and bowden allowed them to work in the waters he held the least to.

-- lease to. brian: when did they begin looking for "the golden fleece?" robert: they began in 2008. brian: there was an admiral. a retired admiral. robert: she married a dominican -- he married a dominican woman. he was able to give them a lot of information. but more than that, he sounded warnings to them. that the days of private treasure hunting might be coming to a close. that the dominican government might be considering signing on to unesco agreements or prohibiting private treasure hunters. the clock was ticking on this. these two guys promised never to let anything get in the way of the treasure hunt, but here came the opportunity to find a pirate ship, but they had to do it fast for they were kicked out and before it disappeared forever. brian: where does the money come from for all this? robert: that's always the biggest question with private treasure hunters. they often get investors to fund exploration, because it is extremely expensive to go out of country, run a ship, hire a

crew, by the equipment. i think they spent a couple hundred thousand just on site scan sonar. they spent $25,000 on a custom software package. there is an $80,000 underwater roving vehicle. this is not your average person looking in water up to your knees. this is serious expensive business. brian: why did they want to do this in the first place, and where do they get tips? robert: matera has been a lover of history. it's my theory that caused him to go the right way in life. you can find him in a library or rare book dealer, looking for information on historic shipwrecks. when he married a dominican woman and lived in the dominican republic, they pulled out books from the archives that had not been opened for centuries. he believed if a person looked hard enough and invested all of himself, he could find a treasure ship of his own. he had not seen chatterton for 25 years.

he had a chance encounter. he told him that information. just as i said it to you, and chatterton was in immediately. brian: when you were here for "shadow divers", chatterton's marriage was falling apart. robert: he had a successful marriage to another woman that endured until recently, from what i'm told. but it is a good look at how difficult this life can be on a relationship. these guys to go diving and searching, especially dangerous shipwrecks, there is a lot of stress in their life and on people who love them. you never know if they are coming back on any given day. to date, chatterton has seen nine or 10 fatalities when he has been out shipwreck diving. brian: how are they killed? robert: often they die by having explosive decompression, they

get a buildup of nitrogen very deep in the water. they either run out of air and come up too fast, or panic and come up too fast. often it is from shooting to the surface and getting a taste of the bends. that can cripple you or kill you. brian: the interesting connection, you at eight years old had to hold that heard those stories from your father. and matera cared about that at eight years old. now you have come together. robert: that's true if you talk to tracy bowden. you love stories. if you only care about the loot, you will not last long. it is too hard to do it just for the stuff. in loveyou have to be with stories and in love with the idea of these historical figures coming to life before you. otherwise you won't stay with it. brian: since you started writing and researching, how many days where you out of your hometown of chicago doing research? robert: i went to the dominican republic twice, for a week or we

-- or week and a half at a time. and then out to florida and new jersey and new york for several weeks, not just to interview subjects, but to do my own research, filling the holes and backup the research and they did. it was a good time away. brian: well is the best source -- what was the best source for you. i know you read a ton of books on pirates. robert: there was one historian, only one, who really knew anything about the pirate joseph bannister. his name was whitewashed by the english officials. i'm not certain, but that's my guess. it is hard to find information. there is one historian, and -- -- an oxford educated man, who worked on decades for stories of port royal, jamaica.

by the time i came across his name and figured out he could tell me more than anyone in the world, from any century about joseph bannister, i thought it will be a miracle if i could find him. he lived in jamaica for decades. i typed his name into a computer hoping he was still alive. only one name popped up. it was 12 minutes from my home. in chicago. within 45 minutes, i was eating lunch with him across the table at jack's restaurant. brian: he's still alive? robert: he is. he came to a book talk i just did in chicago. he is one of the kindest, smartest gentleman i had never met. he was crucial to the putting together of the story. brian: what are the chances he was living in chicago? robert: i tried to calculate that before, it goes into many powers. if i had not met him or he had not done the work, i don't think this would have happened. brian: give us an idea of what he told you. robert: he had done research not just on port royal, jamaica, but on joseph banister himself. he had done this incredible thing of writing a jury and stealing his own ship. but the best thing he did was uncovered the journal of an eyewitness who was aboard one of

the royal navy ships that fought bannister. he uncovered an eyewitness account. without that, none of this could have been put together. without him finding the eyewitness, a literate man, a mathematician, a beautiful writer took account of the whole thing. he kept writing and drawing. it's a gift. brian: how has your writing changed since you began? robert: i tried to get out of the way more, and trying to be more like the baseball umpire and not be seen. i don't know how effective i am. but i tried. i try to please remind myself to show, don't tell. i'm guilty of it, but i'm trying to be less guilty of it. that is mostly what's on my mind.

brian: how many drafts do you do on a book like this? robert: probably three or four. but i spend the bulk of my time structuring the book. that takes an even more time than it does to write here it i put it best. i put together the structure of the book. then i get into the writing and it comes easy. brian: where have you been on to -- on tour? robert: up and down the east coast. brian: what is a question you are asked at bookstores, that seems to come over time? robert: everybody wants to know what amount of treasure was found aboard the pirate ship. you get that from the little tiny kids all the way to octogenarians. everyone wants to know what treasure. it was fascinating. i put photos in the book. the artifacts are even better than the treasure. there is a cereal bowl that is still half filled with porridge.

the whole hull of the ship is perfectly preserved. but that amazing thing is it is about the rarity and historic nature. brian: how much did tracy bowden raised and how much was he involved? robert: he had been working for 30 years in the dominican republic, going after treasure ships. he deserves a lot of credit for knowing about the story, and wanting to get the ship. but he put chatterton to work on the ship. as rare as a spanish italian is, a parish it is more so. he wanted to team up with guys to find this. it wasn't that expensive of a opposition at first, because people had a pretty good idea of where it might need. -- b. it seemed this would be an easy endeavor. brian: you point out that he was wrong where the ship was. robert: not just tracy, but

history itself. there is a napoleonic era map that labeled an island as bannister island. so, everybody thought the wreck would be found at this one place. they were wrong. that is what makes this an interesting story. if they just went out and find -- found it in two weeks, there would not be much of a story to tell. it seems all of history was wrong. the question was, where do you look? in order to do that, chatterton had to stop looking for the ship and look for banister, the heart of the man. brian: is there anybody in the u.s. government that keeps track of where ship are around the world? robert: i don't know. that's a great question. certainly they would have little idea of pirate ships erie it -- of pirate ships.

pirate ships by their very nature were supposed to be stealth operations. they never filed manifests. no governments at the time when looking for them. they didn't even really know about them. i'm sure there are agencies and historians who keep track of ships. the weather not they do it on par chips, i am much less certain. you have any idea of how many shipwrecks there are around the world? robert: i think in the imagination it is much greater than the actual number. the shipwrecks called to these guys. there's a lot of them. brian: if we knew right now how many people were looking around the world, how many would that number be right now? looking forou are treasure ships, that is a lower number for looking for shipwrecks in general. governments make a lot of regulations that prohibit salvage once you find it. it's hard to say how many people are looking, but it's a pretty small community. if you're talking about deep water shipwrecks, it's even

smaller. the people capable of diving are very small. brian: a little more video showing the things you have been talking about from the trailer. then we come back and continue. [video clip] >> what started as an interesting idea soon manifested into an all-out obsession. >> i knew we had to think like bannister would have been thinking. of course, that was really, for us the key to finding the wreck. >> we uncovered the hull in its entirety, and we took a collective wreck. never have we ever seen anything like that. the things they started to pull off of their, weapons, knives daggers, tell you you are looking at a golden age pirate ship. >> we pulled up a dinner all dinnerd fossilized -- bowl that had fossilized

porridge in it from some guys last meal before the battle. we knew we had it. it was the first time all the pieces of the puzzle fit together perfectly. brian: what about a movie? robert: i hope so. it has been optioned for screen. but this time, i have not calculated it will be out in a few months. fingers crossed. brian: for a writer like you, is that a good thing -- a lot of money come back to you? all three books have been optioned, haven't they? robert: it is more money if they and up making the movie. it is one of the finest kinds of money. it does not require any extra work. because it is gratifying to know it speaks to people. brian: the narrative is almost like fiction. if there is something you don't want the audience to know before they read the book, what would it be? robert: something i don't want them to know? brian: in our discussion. you would rather have them read it. robert: the greatest challenge, and what made this very challenging, it did not matter

to them if they found the ship. they had to prove its identity. finding it would be worse if they cannot prove its identity. to do that, they knew it was going to be virtually impossible. they almost needed a miracle to occur. for a guy like chatterton especially, who was willing to risk his life, it would be worse than death. he had to know. knowing it would be almost impossible to prove, it was only like his own suicide mission. and yet, he does it. that is how i would like people to read it. brian: i have to say, my biggest surprise was on page 245. "to mattera, bannister's calling was democracy, but what mattered

most was bannister had answered. 'the last thing i expected to most was bannister had answered. "'the last thing i expected to the last thing i expected to come out of this book was democracy. explain that. robert: me too. i would have put that word last. but it's true. when they looked into pirate and piracy, they discovered that pirate ships were among the first democracies. a concept that would not take hold in america until hundred more years. the lowliest man on board voted, and it counted the same as the captain's vote. it voted on everything, where to go, what to steal. every vote counted the same. the captain did not get a morsel more to eat then the lowliest guy. for two guys trying to figure out why a man like joseph bannister would risk so much, this idea started to speak louder and louder. this guy had to have become intoxicated with this incredible idea of freedom, and totally quality aboard where everybody decided where they went.

and you did not speak to wealthy shipowners or anyone else. brian: how big was the ship? robert: 100 feet long, 30 cannons, a crew of about 100. brian: what was it made of? robert: mostly with. it had iron cannons and anchors. that is what they looked for. brian: how did joseph bannister die? robert: officially, they finally tracked him down to the mosquito coast. after a brief battle, they took him and some of his men prisoner, and sailed him back to port royal. but when they got near that, rather than charging them as english law required, they hanged joseph bannister and his cohorts from the yardarm of one of the navy ships in front of the people, cut off his body, and then dumped him in the sea. if you ask chatter senate and -- chatterson and

mattera, they don't necessarily believe that. he had humiliated the english government. they wanted to know if he disappeared into the ether. brian: what do the british do now about bannister? robert: they stopped talking about him in the 1680's after the story ended. it makes sense. there's lots of correspondence to the governor of jamaica about what a scourge and embarrassment he had been. i don't think they wanted to talk about him. brian: as they were searching for the golden fleece, the ship, how deep did they expect it to be in the water? robert: history said it would be found at 24 feet here at much different than the u-boat, at 230 feet. six months after the battle when the pirate ship sank, the people who had seen the wreck, said there was the muskets and it would be in 24 feet of water. so that was a very, very important clue.

it was one that made it seem like it should be an easy search. brian: how deep was it? robert: 24 feet. brian: where? robert: a small island in samana bay, one of the most beautiful places i have ever seen in my life. like an and visible place. when you see this island, where he went, where he really went, you know we were dealing with a great hiring, not just a good one. brian: what did they find? robert: the entire ship, buried under four feet of mud and silt hearing with a freshwater stream, the entire hall was -- hull was intact. you can see the beads as brightly colored today as when the pirates wove them into their beard and hair. brian: once they found it, by the way, how many people were looking? robert: just chatterton and

mattera and bowen. but once word got out, then other treasure hunting outfits appeared. they did not necessarily admit to what they were looking for, but it is pretty obvious given where they were anchored and when they showed up. brian: then what happened after they found it? robert: a big celebration. and then the salvage begins. it is their job to perfectly preserve things. that is when the dominican government sends an official, an archaeologist, who watches every bead, it is catalogued and put into the ministry of culture. it is all catalogued, and then finally after the salvage is done, they put it back where it lay originally. brian: did they take it out of the water? robert: no, that would ruin it immediately. these guys are about history. they don't want to mess up. there is worry about private treasure hunters that they don't care about preserving it. but in my experience, nothing could be further from the truth. so they put it back and it is buried again under the mud. you would never know it is there.

brian: are they still working on it? robert: no, it is almost complete. it is back under. you can see swimmers and tourists and fishermen, going right over it. they have no idea they are over history. brian: have they done a lot of video? robert: yes. it is very interesting to watch. it is not the kind of video you or i might make. it is archaeological. they are trying to preserve where things are. out, --ee ted measures tape measures out, string, it is about distance. it is not as beautiful as we might shoot it. brian: i always ask you about the next book. this one took eight years. robert: i got to it about three and a half years ago. i was doing screenwriting in between, and other investigating. since i started working on this book, i compared myself to a treasure hunter. i am always looking for something great. but it takes time. to find the real thing. long time went to a

between mayors, and part of the job i have to get used to is it may take a while. brian: when did you finish? robert: it was finished about a year ago, and then it went into final editing, and then promotion. it takes a lot of time. brian: are you on to your next book? robert: i have something than -- some things i am looking at. i'm not quite ready to discuss yet. brian: would you ever admit you are looking at something? robert: when i'm in the middle of it, i do. i don't in the early days, often because those ideas will fizzle out, and i don't want to get too excited about it, or other people to interested before i am absolutely sure. brian: you told us amy is a lawyer. what kind? robert: she does government work in chicago. zoning and land use and lobbying. she's in the thick of one of the most interesting political places in the world. brian: how old are your kids? robert: 13 and nine. brian: are they interested in storytelling? robert: they are great storytellers.

i take the mantra, i took them on my book tour with me. with the agreement. i tell you a story, you tell me a story. we try to do what i did. brian: what did they tell you? robert: they tell me about things that happen in school, they make up stories sometimes. they even give me a marvin and arvin story sometimes. brian: when you look back at how difficult it was for you, at home and then in high school, and getting grades, what is the moral of this story? robert: for me, it is to stay at something, and not to settle for being unhappy. i could have settled into an unhappy life. i was not having a good time as a lawyer. i figured, this is not how to spend the next 50 years of my life, no matter what the money was. i believed in myself. in a crazy way probably. even when i was struggling in high school and they were recommending all kinds of drastic measures, i should go

get therapy or whatever it was, i had this feeling about myself that i would be ok. and that feeling has always been with me. brian: have you ever been back to glenbrook high school? robert: once or twice. they made me alumni of the year, if you can believe it. my pictures hanging next to pictures of people who actually deserve it. in the main hallway there, so i have been back a couple of times. brian: what do you think of being a writer? robert: in a lot of ways it is a dream life. i get to go on these adventures with interesting people. i get to stay for two or three years. but i don't have to stay forever. then i get to move on to another world. it's great. in other ways, it's lonely. i work by myself. i have a home office. ie to lunch at myself almost lunch by -- i eat myself every day. i miss the days when i was in an office and could round up a couple of people and rapid by deed. brian: by the way, anyone who wants to read, you can go to

google and find the esquire article. you doing anymore for them? robert: i haven't in a few years, but i'm grateful. they helped make my career. brian: first, "shadowdivers", and the third book, "pirate hunters: treasure, obsession, and the search for a legendary ." robert kurson, thank you very much. robert: thank you so much. ♪ >> for free transcripts or to give us your comments about this program, visit us at q.org. also available as c-span podcast. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> if you enjoyed this week "q&a," there are others available. with roberterview

kurson talking about his previous books. and simon winchester discussing atlantic, the history of the atlantic ocean. you can watch these anytime or search the entire video library at c-span.org. >> monday night on the privacy,tors, internet cybernet security issues and how data breachcent issues. >> it the most recent attack of course on the office of management, but also target, home depot, so many other private organizations have had customer information stolen. in so, what we have realized is we can try