examining drinking and drug use among pregnant teenagers. talks about endangered species and big game hunting. we take your facebook comments and tweets. host: good morning, it is tuesday, august 11 and student loans is where we will begin this morning. with outstanding student loans ill-equipped dribbling since one $.2estimated trillion some of the presidential candidates are talking about how they would address the rising cost of a college education. hillary clinton was the latest to outline her plan. will tell you about the details this morning and get your experience with paying for college. if you have student loan debt dial in at (202) 748-8000. if you paid off those loans (202) 748-8001.

no student loans your line is (202) 748-8002. and all others can call us at (202) 748-8003. at can also send us a tweet @cspanwj or go to facebook.com/cspan. we will get to your calls in just a second at first i want to show you what hillary clinton had to say yesterday. a $350 billion plan for student loans. [video clip] student shouldo have to borrow to pay tuition at a public college or university. [applause] schools will have to control their costs and show more accountability to their students.

42% increases over 10 years. way above the rate of inflation of anything else. their will have to meet obligation to invest in higher education. [applause] the federal government will increase its investment in education and will not profit any longer off of student loans. everyone who already has student debt will be able to refinance it at lower rates. hillary clinton yesterday on the campaign trail talking about her $350 billion proposal on student loans.

according to the wall street journal under the plan the u.s. would send large grants to the state. states would be required to lift higher education spending and families would have to contribute what they can afford. it also includes an obama administration proposal between two years and free community college. these ideas would cost about $200 billion over 10 years. the plan would revamp the federal student loan program for lower borrowing costs for people who already hold student loan debt. people could refinance at lower rates or get lower rates in the first place and cap payments at 10% of discretionary income. if any money is still owed after 20 years it would be forgiven. is estimated to

cost $125 billion over 10 years. paidntire plan would be for by capping deductions for high income taxpayers. by plan is welcomed activists who have pushed candidates to support bold proposals on college affordability. the plan was attacked by republicans as a tax increase and a new dose of federal control. there is bipartisanship on this issue. while there are deep divides the wall street journal reports there is remarkable consensus on the problem. debt is nowlated the highest form of household debt except for mortgages. we turn to all of you this morning -- let washington and these candidates know your experience. casey in westminster, massachusetts. you're on the air. caller: good morning. i student loans and they are manageable and i pay them each month. but i am troubled with the fact

that presidential candidates are even wondering into this. host: why is that? caller: where in the constitution does it say that united states federal government should be micromanaging and dictating how public and private universities are conducting their businesses? if colleges and universities need to lower their costs, why aren't they lowering costs themselves? host: why do you think it is? the demand is still there. -- i assume that they can keep raising the costs. caller: of course. the money is going to be there, so why not. they are in the business to make are not necessarily interested in educating people per se. i'm not a big college sports fan but there are probably dozens of universities with multimillion

dollar sporting complexes. when you make sipping too easy to get, of course people are going to take advantage of it and get these loans. hello people probably should not be going to -- a lot of people should not be going to college in the first place. host: what should the federal government do? inminate grants to colleges order to eliminate that money? caller: i just think that the more the government gets involved in decision-making that should occur at a local level, the worse things get. thank you so much. host: let me read this from "the wall street journal". clinton takes taxpayers to take ons there tech -- it. the government has, since the 1960's, dump truck loads of

money on colleges and students and the result of which has been higher tuition. schools pocket the subsidies and pass on the costs. a july report found that every additional dollar in aid led colleges to raise to wish and as much as $.65. as $.65.n as much here is how governor jeb bush responded. we need to change the incentives for colleges with fresh policies to result in more individualization and choices, tribe down overall costs, and improve the value of a college degree, which will help lead to real, sustained 4% economic growth. francis, you have paid off your student loans. good morning. tell us your experience. caller: i took out student loans years ago and i became a teacher.

but this will be the subject. they will have her on the program or pursue her in a way that is pleasing. you are the one giving all of the ideas that supported hillary. people who want to go to college, if they are really interested they can study hard in high school. there are a lot of scholarships i have had that are hardly even taken up. we have a lottery in tennessee that pays for scholarships and when they get to college, if they do their work they can continue. ways.are lots of the fellow from massachusetts was right.

the federal government just wants to get bigger. keep putting hands into the pockets of people who never get to go to college. host: it is not just hillary clinton talking about it, here is marco rubio in a recent campaign event. due to the right to know before you go act. [video clip] sen. rubio: weed to reform additional higher education -- we need to reform additional higher education as well. any of our young people take out student loans, that is who will have to tell you how much you can expect to make you graduate from that degree that schools people can decide if it is worth borrowing tens of thousands of dollars to major in basket weaving. my apologies to the basket weavers. host: senator marco rubio

talking about what he would like to see done on this issue. "politico" put this together. colleges in the 2016 crosshairs. democrats want to make college cheaper or free. this is what politico writes that the surge in candidates collected interest in the issue isn't a coincidence. on the importance of financial aid in college decision-making said it was very important. the highest percentage ever in the 42 years the question was asked. i found more parents fret about having enough money to pay for college. for public four-your colleges and doubled for private once in -- last three decades open helping push higher education issues to the forefront.

fear among many voters that they and their children will be shut out of higher education altogether. caller: good morning. i not only paid mine off but my wife's as well. host: what was it like? when was this? how much did you have to pay? the two of us it was probably $100,000 and this was back in the 1960's and 1970's that we went to school. my wife got some partial scholarships, there is a lot of scholarship money out there. weird onereal 1 -- that only benefited people from a small county in upstate new york. there are a lot of specific ones that people are aware of that the woman was talking about from tennessee making some very good points. if you want to go to college

there are the state schools and in new york city the city university. compared to private schools that is almost free to there are a lot of ways of getting an education. to does every kid have to go college? what is wrong with the trade schools and vocational schools? all of my nephews and nieces are in the trades. have a five-year trading -- training program. all of these schools have several years of school which they do not pay for. there part of the job. i wonder why are we pushing kids that should not be at a higher education setting into they will runre up a lot of debt and not be able to find a job? -- bernieou think

sanders is calling for free college education. caller: that is because he is a socialist. as margaret thatcher said, socialists are great until they run out of everybody's money. host: how many years did it take to pay off that $100,000 and how big were your monthly payments? caller: i don't remember the monthly payments but it took about 20 years. host: do you remember it being a burden? that it was difficult to find the money for the payment or that it was stressful? caller: i was able to budget my expenses properly and live within my means. host: business insider put together some charts on the current situation. the 90 day the link would seat rate has risen to 11.3%. for context the rate for mortgages has dropped to about and credit card delinquency

have reached historical lows according to the fed. delinquency is not connected to borrowers who took out huge lungs to attend medical schools. 5000people with only dollars or $10,000 are still going to link went. the hardest hit age group is people in their 30's. i have seen their outstanding student loans nearly triple since 2014 as they returned to college during the downturn. in illinois, your student loans. good morning to you. bit more have a little of a recent story than the previous caller. school in theing mid-1990's. i was a single mother.

i did ask for scholarships and wasn't given hardly any and had to take out student loans to fund my tuition. the state schools have waiting lists. sometimes if you want to get into nursing school people want theynish their education. turned to the private school. with about $80,000 in student loan debt. they are not doable for a single mother with two kids. as you put the loans in forbearance the interest will still accrue.

my student loan debt has now climbed to over $350,000 as of today because that interest rate keeps on adding and building and building and i just cannot make the payment. i am back at home with my mother and i am 43 years old. host: are your kids still with you? caller: yes. all three kids are still with me and my oldest daughter is now in school. she is not eligible for financial aid because of my income as a nurse. now she is taking student loans out as well. i see the cycle starting to repeat itself. i am really hoping with this new reform being proposed -- i'm not sure if it is even proposed yet

until hillary gets into office but it is something i would really hope to benefit from because i graduated in 1999 so how many years ago was that? host: you have been a nurse for how many years and do you mind telling us reseller he? -- salary? $90,000. am making i work for the federal government. i have a very good job except for my student loan debt is just i have not been able to buy a home, i can barely purchase a car because of this payment. it is just astronomical. host: jan in huntsville, alabama. no student loan debt. how did you do that? theer: i went to college in early 80's and college was affordable than. now are at a state

university paying $25,000 year and it goes up every year and she has had to take out student loans to go. payuld not help her to because of the economy. i ended up losing my job is several years back so she was left with no choice but to borrow money to go to school or not go. there are not enough scholarships out there for everyone. my first husband was a college professor. there is just not enough scholarships out there for everybody who wants to go and needs to go. afford tory cannot not allow people to advance and get higher education or we will not be competitive in the world. some states have offered

alternatives maybe like georgia and tennessee but not every state has that. alabama had a program for children and parents to invest in so they could go to the state college but it went broke. they did not manage it properly. there needs to be an alternative now that the cost of education is so high. i need to go back myself because the world has changed and the longer asave is no becausele out there technology has changed so i need to go back myself to get a better job but there is no way that i can go without borrowing funds. daniel in bloomington, indiana, you have paid off those loans -- good morning to you. >> good morning ma'am.

before we institute a forgiveness plan we need to make better friends. ms. clinton has proven that power is a curse and she deserves no more. against loansly either. i had the payoff each semester or i received grants which has been really a blessing but i have probably paid back over two thirds back in taxes to the federal and state governments. blessingbeen really a because it is helped me understand that the federal government has the constitutional authority to economy through these student loans and other things because if it wasn't for us there wouldn't be an economy. so by delegating the scheme for

us to go through school is probably the biggest bailout next to corporate welfare. host: robert, you have student loan debt. good morning. caller: good morning. just acrossal, is the capital the interest later so high. when you see home loans and small business loans etc. you to 4% interest rates just wondering why the government is gouging these kids for costs. one of the cost of what to make is when the gentleman was talking about a vocation -- why go to a four-year college. i would like a fundamental restructuring and allowing children to go two years to get specialty in whatever they may

be in. host: i apologize, you are breaking up but on your point. but me show you "the new york times" editorial. crisisge affordability and the board writes that students and their families are paying more for college and going deeper into debt every year. but 60% of graduates had student loans in 2013. more becauseng state governments reduced higher education spending by 25% per and 2014.tween 2000 11% of total outstanding loans are delinquent by more than 90 days compared with 6% in 2005. the new york times goes on to say that hillary clinton's plan

along with other democrats plan has one problem. to whatd states react they are proposing. the new york times goes on to say as well that senator marco rubio has highlighted his own struggle with student loans and has supported loan repayments the borrower's income but he does not have a comprehensive plan. another republican candidate has caused great harm to the university of wisconsin's system by cutting $250 million from the budget which is forcing administrators to raise tuition for some students. candidates from only one party are taking it seriously. that is what the new york times believes. we are getting your thoughts on student loan debt. what has your experience been like paying off these student loans and paying for college. in other news will start with politics.

the washington post this morning says this about donald trump. the aimless torchbearer. mr. trump may have struck a cord but he is not the truth teller he purports to be. anyone -- we are tempted to say any more on can grab a torch and run before the mop. what takes talent's political anger management. to identify legitimate complaints enter them into instruction. explicit demands for a massive tariff on chinese imports or his insistence shows no sign of possessing such capability. he shows no sign of technology and the need for it. >> many of you know the criticism that donald trump has had for fox news and its moderators of the foxnews debate. he came to twitter yesterday to say that he had a phone call

with roger ailes. >> he is a great guy said donald trump and assured me that trump will be treated fairly on fox news. his word is always good says donald trump on twitter. megan kelly had her show last night and this is what she had to say about what donald trump has been saying. [video clip] >> mr. trump was upset with the question i asked him about his electability and specifically comments he had made about women. a few words on that. apparently esther trump thought the question i asked was unfair and felt i was attacking him. tough that he was asked a but fair question. we agreed to disagree. mr. trump did interviews over the weekend that attacked me personally but i have decided not to respond. mr. trump is an interesting man who has captured the attention of the electorate. that is why he is leading in the

poll. trump will not apologize and i will not apologize for doing good journalism. i will continue doing my job without fear or favor. , i expect, will continue with what has been a successful campaign so far. this is a tough business and it is time to move forward. host: megan kelly responding. att night hillary clinton her event on student loans at a news conference and reacted to last thursday night's gop debate and what mr. trump has been saying. [video clip] sec. clinton: none of the candidates offered solutions for how to make college affordable arrays income for hard-working families and they cannot even talk about the real pressure facing american families. and what donald trump said about megan kelly is outrageous but with the rest of republicans are saying about all women is also outrageous. they brag about slashing women's health care funding.

they say that they would force women who have been raped to carry the rapist's child. we don't hear any of them support raising the minimum wage or paid leave for new parents, access to quality childcare, equal pay for women or anything else that will help to give women a chance to get ahead. womankelly is a strong and more than capable of defending herself against donald trump. about whatd republican policies would do to the rest of america's women and i will continue to speak out and speak up about that today and through the rest of this campaign and in the white house. host: that was hillary clinton yesterday responding to the trump-kelly back and forth. in the washington post, clinton takes an oath on turning over e-mails. facing questions over her use of

a private e-mail system while secretary signed a statement over the weekend declaring that under penalty of perjury she has turned over to the government all of the e-mails that were federal records. submitted to a federal court matches what she and her campaign is set for months about exclusive use of a private e-mail account server to conduct public business. republicans are charged that she may have withheld some correspondents that should have been part of the public record. the latest on that from the washington post's morning. -- this morning. there is also this policy from the atlanta journal-constitution -- cruz keeps focus on the south. flockedted cruz was after a solemn prayer service. a patient greeted him long before he took the stage and more than 1000 crammed into a on free ice nosh

cream and hear him speak. is the biggest commitment yet of any presidential candidate to the primary. the collection of mostly southern states voting is a block on march 1. jeb bush is going to be talking this evening in california. he will be giving a foreign-policy speech and we will have coverage of that airing at 11:00 p.m. eastern time and 8:00 p.m. pacific. politico has a story this morning with the headline that jeb bush is expected to a sale clinton and obama on iraq. he will ask where was the secretary of state clinton in all of this. tune in if you're interested in that part of our road to the white house coverage and this headline in the chicago sun times.

the illinois congressman who was forced to step down, shock to the federal government -- let's make a deal and lynn sweet reporting that the documents show he has been seeking immunity from prosecutors and another headline for you this morning this is one many of you are familiar with. usa today, estate of emergency has been declared as violence a reps in the city. here,n see the picture -- asing dozens of people violence erupts in the city. you can see the picture here, arresting dozens of people. author and actor cornell west arrested at the demonstration. jumped over the

metal barricades and walked toward the officers guarding it. protesters sat before the building's entrance in the group surrounded overnight in ferguson. as many of you know, a young man was shot there in that city as well. a state of emergency declared in ferguson. we have been talking about student loan debt in this country asking all of you to tell us your experience. if you have student loan debt (202) 748-8000. if you have paid off the student loans (202) 748-8001. no student loans (202) 748-8002. all others (202) 748-8003. let's go to georgia next. eugene, thank you for hanging on the line. caller: great to be on the program. first of all, no student loan debt. no student should have to pay to go to college.

the english program that they have when any kid can go to school was great i think they have changed it a little bit now. cuba does a chance to go to school without having to pay for their education. we, being one of the leanest and ,ichest countries in the world should not have our students burdened with all of this debt. somet here and talk about kids shouldn't go to college and that is a lie. every kid should have the ability to go to college. expanding about horizons and getting to know the arts and appreciating interactivity with other people from other cultures. vocation is about the work. the two can go together but you

do not what to a limited one for the other so when you hear people talking about how some shouldn't go to college that is up during- as i came the time when they said the same exact thing during the 60's. you have certain people that need to do plumbing work in certain people need to do brick laying. guess what? we had some the best educated carpenters, plumbers and mechanics because we were able to go to college and get an education. helps our vocation. talking hast there a son, grandson, a niece or a daughter that needs education. host: we got your point. , eugene arguing for free college education, listen

to what bernard sanders senator from vermont had to say recently. [video clip] sen. sanders: i have introduced legislation and will fight as president of united states to make certain that every public college and university in america is tuition free. [applause] we must also significantly reduce student debt. it is insane that people are paying 8%-10% interest rates when you can refinance your home for 2%-3%. host: senator bernie sanders on this issue of student loan debt and the hill newspaper with this headline -- sanders pulls a crowd of 27,500 people in los

angeles. large crowds turning out for the independent senator and vermont. marie, you paid off the student loans, what was it like? i attended college in the late 1960's as well as my husband. forher of us accrued debt our bachelors degrees. my husband went to medical school and did borrow money for medical school. therapistucational and i work with those who have had difficulties. studentsalifornia, must graduate in the top third of their high school classes to attend public universities. here in california one out of four of them have to take remedial classes. they have to pay to wish and. -- tuition.

yet those classes do not apply to their degree. i believe what we need to do is to reform our k-12 school systems. this is terrible. the situation is even worse for community college students. if you look at the date at which i keep track of, over 50% of the students attending community colleges also have to take remedial classes in english, reading and math. our system is increasing the cost of higher education. host: nick in ohio. no student loans. caller: i had no student loans to i was not in a position to attend college in the 1970's when i got out of high school. is an enormous discrepancy in the number of families in america who are in

the position to bear the enormous, extraneous expenses of sending a child to college. higher education. as it exists right now, is a subsidy for the upper class families who were in the position to send their children to school at the expense of the less fortunate. person whohat a wants to get a degree in apology, --at atamology, ornithology -- modern dance. should be able to do that but they should bear the consequences of the decision they made and pay the loans that they took in order to subsidize that curiosity, as ronald reagan put it.

am, thestate where i tuition collected from students is nearly exactly equal to the tax revenues that the school collects, state, local, federal. those educations are already 50% subsidized by the makingr before the nurse $90,000 working for the federal government refuses to pay back her loan. donald in new york, you do not have student loans. go ahead. caller: i don't know where to begin. i never had a student loan. i didn't go to college. anybody'sto pay for higher education. host: why, donald? caller: because i am a single

person. people's -- their education for their early years. in fact, they are asking me not to pay for preschool and they're asking me to pay for daycare. see them going to grade one -- feed them going to grade one through 12 and every time i turn around they are asking for school supplies and a backpack that i am supposed to supply them with. how am i supposed to have any faith in the system if i am supposed to be supporting these people all the way through their , even education and then now they are saying, they don't have to pay their debt after 20 years. what kind of education is that?

you don't have to pay for something you sign up for. host: all right, donald. on twitter here is some reaction from our viewers. loansrson says student should not have a high interest fee. there shouldn't be big profits from this as if a business or mortgage loan. then you have this room of your -- i recommend going to a vocational school. and most schools require a masters. and elliott says government should only give grants for degrees and certificates that guarantee employment. jim, good morning to you. you are on the air. .aller: first-time caller in terms of not having loans my parents came out of the depression and world war ii and what they taught us was to pay your bills and then save, save thomas save.

based on that they were able to get me through college with the loans. and under the clinton years i had saved up enough money so what i was able to do was take out a loan while i was making lenny on our investments and when alone can do pay the whole thing off. if i had more than one kid it would've been big trouble. i think a problem also is with colleges, they always say they have people graduate and they have 88% success rate or whatever. my son, having gone through johnson and wales for a business degree is now a waiter at the same job he was at when he was getting these degrees. he cannot find a job at this

point. the last thing i would say -- with my mother, when we grew up she was a member of the school board forever and a day. her theory was that not everyone should have to go to college. vocational schools were underrated and that was one of her take pushes. host: all right, jim. some quick headlines. another one on campaign 26. texas governor rick perry stops paying his staff as fundraising has faltered at the national headquarters in austin as well as an early caucus and primary states and iowa, new hampshire and south carolina. the campaign manager told staff members the day after the first republican debate that they would no longer be paid and are free to seek other jobs with so foremost most of stuck with perry. there are bids on the front page of the wall street journal.

reporting that china asked to devalue its currency. balance the currency is the world's second-largest economy continues to sputter. the people's bank of china took a step toward making the currency value more market-based. on fixing will now be based how it closes in the previous trading session until now. it had been entirely determined by the central bank itself. the trial for that washington post reporter held in iran is over and a verdict is expected soon. then there is this. find to build and over for health care -- an uber for health care.

put an uis looking to ber spin on visits. it provides a range of nonemergency medical care much like a mobile urgent care clinic. the companies you slightly different models. pager in new york city dispatch his doctors or nurse practitioners for $200. he'll -- heal promises to get a doctor to you for under $99. apps that are starting across the country were a doctor is on demand and will come to your house. they don't take ensure its but you can either pay out of your help savings account for the services or submit the bill to your insurance company. kaitlin did in virginia, you have student loan debt. good morning to you. graduated college in

2013 from florida state university and i have still about $30,000 in debt. i deferred loan payments for about a year and a realized how much interest had accrued for the last several months i haven't paying about $350 a month in student loans. it doesn't give me an opportunity to save and get ahead. i think what they need to do is more education about when you take out student loans. when i was in school it's like everybody gets financial aid in their bank accounts for thousands of dollars and you don't really understand the consequences of it and what you will be paying after school. host: how old are you, did you say? caller: 24. host: how much do you have in student loan debt? caller: about $30,000 and it was about $35,000.

host: you pay about $350 a month what is that mean for your monthly hills? how much of that eats up your income? it is all of my savings. i cannot manage to save any money by paying off these loans. if i want to get another car it will be hard to do that. i would like to buy a home that i am living in to put money toward a mortgage as opposed to rent going nowhere and it will be hard to do that, too saving up for a down payment. host: how much is your rent? caller: $1000 a month and i share with a roommate. host: split between the two of you? caller: yes, not including bills. host: so your student loan is almost as much is your rent payment. caller: yeah, kind of. host: i appreciate the phone call. we will switch gears coming up to talk about home ownership in this country and those that are

underwater. we will talk with gretchen morgenson of the new york times about drowning homeowners in the federal government program. and will be joined by susan carlson tucker what fetal alcohol syndrome. the impact of it on our society and later we will be talking about victim hunting. on monday, the middle east institute held a discussion on the iran nuclear agreement. here is robert ford at the middle east institute. [video clip] >> it is very difficult for me to imagine that in the short term, the iranians will not use some small portion of financial resources that they re-acquire as part of the sanctions relief

-- that they will not use some portion of those resources to isp lebanese hezbollah which really now fighting full out in syria. the number of casualties now is in the hundreds and it is beginning to approach the number of casualties from the 2006 war with israel and that they will also use some of those resources to shore up the government, both economically, and war material. material supplies but it could also be paying salaries to shia fighters that they recruit from countries like pakistan and afghanistan and iraq. you ad recommend to report at the washington institute put out about two weeks ago about the casualties

among expatriate shia in syria. hundreds have been killed in the last 1.5 years because of the iranians. take thexpect to leader at his word that they were going to stay on and double down. i think that is the least they are going to do. i think the prospect of sanctions relief for a run means there will likely be -- four iran means there will likely be an increase in fighting. >> for more of this you can go to our website. now joining us from new york this morning, gretchen morgenson with us to talk about home ownership. you can read the story of slack lifeline for drowning homeowners. gretchen morgenson began with this program that homeowner set up to help these homeowners. what is this program.

theou know this was signature program that the obama administration wanted to put in place to help homeowners and it started in 2009. we have a long arc of performance here to evaluate. as you remember in the crisis the banks got huge enormous bailouts and homeowners were really left struggling on their own. so the program as it was called was designed to really help them and combat the idea that only the banks got the bailout. so what we have been looking at recently is a report from the special inspector general of the charter program. went backr colleagues and analyzed how many banks turned down or what number of borrowers are turned down by the banks for the program and the numbers were startling. host: from your story, here is a

quote from christy saying, we are constantly seeing problems with the way servicers are treating homeowners and not following the rules. i don't understand why the hasn't been a stronger policing. what is going on? guest: i don't know if you remember this. crisised the mortgage and from the beginning it was evident to anyone who looks at the procedures that the banks and the servicers -- the companies that send you your bill every month and take your money that operate the behind-the-scenes administrative aspect of a mortgage -- those banks were woefully unprepared for the folk -- four coat -- foreclosure crisis. and we learned how they were making up documents and creating documents and they were robust side almost automatically to it

is not as if it is so totally a surprise because even prior to the program even during the foreclosure crisis and before we saw problems with loan servicers. but the degree to which this is problematic is that this was supposed to help homeowners and a borrowers and it turns out that instead of throwing them a lifeline, they are really throwing on an anchor and it is not that helpful. >> you profiled lucy circle. what was her experience? guest: she was in vermont. her experience is fairly common. she wanted to try to get a loan modification. she wanted to try to get the terms of her mortgage changed so that she could afford it. she became disabled and could no longer work. she was getting disability insurance and she had enough

money to make a mortgage payment that was lower than the one she had previously. sendust got the runaround the documents, resend the documents and it just did not occur as smoothly as the program had been advertised and she actually had to and list the help -- had to enlist the help of a legal aid lawyer. a lot of homeowners have had to do that to fight on their behalf because you cannot do it alone. it is very difficult to come up against these behemoth organizations that are incredibly incompetent or just doing what they can to try to put off any kind of help to the borrower. as i said in the article you really cannot underestimate the butntial for incompetence as one of the legal aid lawyers told me. there are benefits to the banks

if they hold off on giving a modification because the interest accrues. and soeclosure fees rise there is a monetary incentive to put off giving someone a loan modification. i don't know that is what is going on but it is a possibility. many?lucy is one of how who have had this experience? in thethe headline report, or one of the headlines in this special inspector general report was that 4 million borrowers had been rejected for loan modifications by the banks operating the of anm. that is kind ironic or paradoxical number because that was the number the treasury and administration said

would be helped by the program. christy romero estimates that there are roughly 890,000 people currently in modification programs. that is far less than the 4 million at the program had set out to help. host: do the banks lose under this program? guest: the banks make money under the program. it is not a lot of money. income. incremental fee it is something that they are able to volunteer to do it they don't have to do it. the treasury did not require the banks to do it which was an interesting element because at the time, a lot of these banks were receiving billions of dollars from the taxpayer and yet the treasury did not require them to participate in the program for main street. there were flaws from the

beginning. the way the program was set up evident that it is certainly not meeting its goals. host: how do people qualify for this program? says my house is not worth what i paid for it -- guest: there are a lot of rules in the rulebooks for who qualifies for a loan modification under the program. the best thing that a borrower can do is simply apply and to try to get through the maze of requirements. where ite in a state is considered -- where the -- have to oversee foreclosures, you are in a better position because the courts will monitor how the bank is operating and if you have legal aid help that will really help you try to navigate these

shoals. applying for the loan modification and then finding out if you meet the requirements -- there are requirements that your debt to income cannot exceed to get a loan mod. it is a strict set of rules but a lot certainly could get in to the program but it does seem as though they are being held off and stonewalled. host: eric, you are on the air with gretchen morgenson. caller: good morning. let's go back to the very beginning. all of this started under a republican administration, the deregulation with glass-steagall. with that did was open the floodgates of subsidies and corrupt or grams to these you by at comes to allowing commercial money to be used in investment banking. if you with separate these two

they were not have this money to gamble with. what they would have to do then -- they would have to scrutinize these mortgages more in order for them to get any kind of money out of them. it is all on the insurance companies to pay up these mortgages. they don't care if they have to be paid or not. it's glass-steagall and republican's deregulation and that is basically what it goes to. certainly there was deregulation and that was a central heart of the problem that emerged in 2008. we also had what was considered an innovation and mortgage products that were not regulated closely. the fdic was really the standalone regulator who was trying hard to push back on the innovation the banks for coming

up with. these were these crazy mortgages were you only had to pay the interest and not the principal or a mortgage whose payment exploded or ballooned at a certain point in time or the interest rate went up. programse creative that wall street and the banks came up with to try to allow -- they were called affordability products. many that people who may be should not buy as much of a house could afford that house using these crazy mortgages. regulators were nowhere to be found on that turf. they were not regulating that closely in the fdic tried and was pushed back by the federal reserve. it was really very obvious to a lot of people that they would end up badly. i agree that there was a deregulatory element involved in the crisis and how it came about. host: peter, a republican.

good morning. caller: miss mortenson, i read your book "reckless endangerment." it was great. i recommend it to my question is, and i asked this two peter wallace, because i read his rebuttal to the majority in the financial crisis. republicans blame democrats. democrats blame republicans. i believe they are both at fault. this is my question. bill clinton's administration raise the mandates on subprime mortgages, according to your book. that created the incentive for banks to create these subprime mortgages -- to convert into .ecurities in 2003, president bush went to ,arney frank and chris dodd

that he thought there was a problem with fannie and freddie. why didn't president bush reduce the mandate back to 3% in 2003, if he thought there was a problem? peter wallace that question, and he couldn't give answer. i would appreciate if you could enlighten me, why is president bush knew there was a problem, he continued president clinton's policy on the private-public partnership. thank you. guest: i have not spoken to president bush about this, so i would only be speculating about what was in his mind at the time. i think, honestly, that we were in aposition -- we were moment of time when homeownership was something that everyone believed was a benefit to all levels of society, and the goal of pushing , as bill clinton

wanted to do in his partnership in 1995, pushing the levels of homeownership of to 70%. that was the goal. across-the-board goal, republican goal, a democratic goal. it was believed that that kind of homeownership is good for society. it was certainly good for business. the construction industry, the insurance industry, the banking industry. so much of our economy touches the home building, homeownership business. it was deemed to be a win-win for everyone. if i were to speculate, my best guess would be that in 2003, we .com sort of coming off the

com bust of the internet. was a feeling that we didn't want to meddle with this large of a portion of the economy. it got to levels that were really unacceptable, and really could not be sustained. that is when, again, the crisis occurred. clinton, maryland, monroe. good morning to you. caller: how are you today? host: doing well. to give youuld love my information off-line because i think i'm the perfect case study for everything you are talking about. when you talked about how they work being uncooperative -- hopefully i can get my story out in time. .- it was countrywide they were getting buyout by bank of america, in which case, paperwork got lost. i submitted it to different

times to bank of america, in which case, it till didn't get approved. know, whatople don't the banks will do if they will put you on these repayment plans, but you have to sell the repayment plan before they put you on a better repayment plan. what inc. of america lost their class action lawsuit, they had to sell a lot of their bad loans, in which case, i got transferred and settled up in 34 days flat. what they didn't tell you is the amount that they forgive is considered w-2 income. $116,000 reduction which got tacked onto the w-2, and i owed money. i did my taxes on my own and didn't know i had to fill out a

worksheet. this is crazy. there is so much that could work if it were better explained. guest: you did a great job of explaining it right there, i will say that. this is one of the reasons why it is unfortunate that so may homeowners like you don't have in these very tricky, convoluted, complex arrangements. the banks really do have the upper hand here because they are dealing with something they are familiar with, they have done it before. the woods, andin it is really tricky. as you say, so many different toes to get through -- rules get through the maze and thicket of these regulations. it sounds like you had a good outcome. that is wonderful, i'm glad to hear it. our summary people that did not have a good outcome, and are still waiting, and are still a difficultand in

situation. it is interesting. i received an e-mail from a reader who said to me, why don't you get over it, this is so long 7-8 yearshappened ago, let's move on. what i find intriguing is there are so may people who can't move on. for me, i think it is really important that we remind people across the country that there are still a lot of people in trouble with their homes. wehas not gone away, and cannot really move on. i thought that was an interesting comment to come in. or a sectorlevel -- of people who say, let's move on from this. host: gretchen morgenson, some areas of the country have seen homeownership take right back up to prerecession level. are there other areas with the values of homes are still not what they were before the recession? guest: absolutely.

there are tremendous losses still in arizona, las vegas -- where the overbuilding was really excessive, and where there were a lot of second homes , a lot of speculation. people were buying houses to flip them, not to live in. in those areas -- florida was a classic case -- you still have a lot of pain and suffering. even in areas where it didn't really go up, you are really still in a stagnant environment. homeownership, the levels have come down dramatically. for me, i think that is beneficial because it isn't right for everyone to own a home. if you have to make these crazy loans, devise loans that are really toxic and end up being

poisonous, to get people into homes, then i think there's something wrong with that picture. host: eric is watching us in georgia, a democrat. you are on the air. caller: good morning to you both. wholeuation with this trying to get a reduction, we -- it wasght after get a seminar, and they four or five people to go on the stage and say wonderful things like they got their interest got at 2%, and they also loan.ion, and a

it just isn't true. i'm with bank of america, and i just want to tell you something. if you two wonderful people for you to, in order get any kind of -- into any type of program to get help, they will tell you that you have to be at least three months behind. host: let's take that point. gretchen morgenson? guest: this is an aspect of the loan modification process that has been very troubling. what sometimes happens is the bank will take advantage of the fact -- they will tell you to be late, to not pay, and then they will foreclose. i havereally really -- heard many stories of this type of situation. it really is not the right approach to take. that is something that you

really ought to question. if that is the remedy that the again, theseng -- are complex issues, a lot of legalities involved. you have to, if you can, try to go to a legal aid organization which provides low cost or no cost legal assistance to help you go through these programs. host: is there supposed to be a federal agency that is your legal aid, that helps you navigate this with the banks? is there a watchdog? guest: know, there's really not a watchdog. the treasury is supposed to police the program, oversee it because the loan servicers -- the treasury was the kind of conduit for the program, the ones who created the roles. as christie romero, in the

report and her interview with me , says she has been disturbed has not been more policing of the problems that anyone who looks at this can see. i was speaking with legal aid workers in new york city who were able to send me legal documents that show me the kind of stonewalling that borrowers have received in new york. the only reason that this came out at all was because, in new york, if you are going through a foreclosure, you have to have it overseen by the courts. there are a lot of documents in the courts -- something like one third of the court docket is foreclosure cases. there is a legion of these cases that show how borrowers try and try again to send the documents, get them in, they are refuse, turned down, stonewalled. it is very disturbing to see how

many cases like this there are. specialcording to the ig's report, 72% of applicants were rejected. what are the reasons why? guest: the banks will say things like the borrower didn't put in the right paperwork, the borrower didn't make the first payment. they essentially blame the borrower. that would probably be true in some cases, maybe even in many cases, but what we know, having investigated the mortgage servicers from the fact that million, i think ulty011, over there falsi practices, we know there are problems in these organizations. it really does i have mustered to say it is always the borrower's fault. host: jeff and charlotte, north

carolina, a republican. you are next. caller: you actually just took the words out of my mouth. i live in charlotte, north carolina, which is bank of america's headquarters. bank of america and other banks are always being vilified as the problem, when in reality, folks should not be getting loans in the first place. the government have a policy that everyone should own a home, so banks were under pressure to extend credit to folks who should not receive credit and mortgages. i remember a time when you could just declare your income without any verification at all. what happens is folks get a mortgage, they don't pay the mortgage, they get the home foreclosed on, and then it is fault.k's i understand you have financial problems, lose jobs, and everything, it is about accountability, i think.

if i couldn't own a home, and before i was in a position to own one, i rented. guest: i know there is plenty of blame to go around. obviously, there were borrowers who were greedy who wanted to flip houses and make a product honestly, the banks were supposed to be the prudent person in the room. there is the lender. they were supposed to be load be about the repaid. if you are creating worlds that will explode in their interest rate, and they ask you to only pay the interest and not the principle, to only put people in the home, and you are profiting from those loads, then i think the banks need to take responsibility for those actions. the fact of the matter is that the banks could have checked

whether borrowers' income was factual, as represented, but they never did check. whenever you take out a mortgage, you have to sign a document saying the bank can go to the irs and check the income. they didn't check. they didn't want to know a lot of these things. .he fees were too rich they shovel the loans off to investors, and they didn't have any skin in the game. all they worried about was generating the mortgage, shoveling them off to someone else, and that person had to sustain the losses when the loans did they get paid. i think there is blame to go around, i agree with that, by think the person in the room that was supposed to be responsible was the banker. they really fell down on the job in the they had no skin game, they couldn't care less if the loan didn't get repaid.

host: massachusetts, sandra, an independent. caller: good morning. i have wells fargo, who i have asked to turn around and make the payment for a different part of the month because the income had changed at the month. during the month, we needed it moved over, so we wouldn't have extra money added on because we wanted the payment to be moved orr, like until the 30th, 29th, of the month because of the way our payments had changed. they did not go along with us. we asked for the other thing. $450turned around and took saying, no, we didn't qualify at the time because the house wasn't up to the money they wanted. then, we went to another bank. the other bank turned around and

could dobe we something. next thing i know, they had a reason why they couldn't do it, but yet they took $200. now, we are in fannie and y.eddie mad they accepted us, but i took it to the bank to see if there were hidden things. yes, $600, and that was to rewrite the loan. the guy told me afterwards -- after i ripped up the papers, he called and said, what was wrong? $6,000, i haven't got that money. he said, that was going to be written into the loan. where is the truth? why is all this money going out? are at 6%.e -- we we are struggling, and we are senior citizens.

three of us in one house right now. our incomes total $27,000-$30,000. they wouldn't change the loan at all. we have top credit. host: gretchen morgenson? guest: sandra, i would urge you aido you have a legal society or some sort of pro bono legal assistance program in your area? i would urge you to go to someone there who could help you. not -- gorepeat, do to one of these companies that claims to help you, and are really a for-profit company that are often scamming homeowners and borrowers. my recommendation would be to get an expert to help you. there might be a possibility that you get a loan modification without paying all of these fees. your point about the fees is

very well taken. that is what the banking business does nowadays. in the old days, you had a banker on the corner, they would give you a loan, they believed in you, it was a face-to-face transaction, and they expected you to pay the loan off. banks do ill the day give the fees to someone else. the banks giving you the loans only have the fees at heart. that is why the fee system has really gone a little bit out of control. that is how they make their money. they don't make money on interest anymore. that goes to someone else. that also influences the whole idea of making loans that the bankers knew people couldn't repay, and they didn't care because the investor, or fannie mae, would be the one to take the loss when the bar would defaulted. host: tell us about these fees.

how many fees? what are they charging? guest: oh my gosh. probably foray legal assistance for the bank, the bank's lawyer, if you are in foreclosure, there are these drive-by appraisals. sometimes they joined by every day to make sure there is someone living in the house. maintenance. they will charge you to mow the lawn, keep the property up. there are just a tremendous number of bogus fees associated with foreclosure. host: what about just simply going to try and get a mortgage these days, or refinancing? are banks making money from the fee system as well? guest: definitely. know, the application fee.

there are all kinds of -- what you do when you get mortgages you ask for a good-faith estimate. the good faith estimate will tell you all the costs associated with getting a mortgage. there are a lot of them. host: lida in connecticut. caller: it's linda. host: good morning. caller: you are one of the reasons i read "the new york times," you are my favorite columnist. i appreciate your work deeply. incomeand and i suffered loss, and we have top credit, and always been our bills. at the time, we were with countrywide. countrywide put us in a section of their company called "full spectrum," of course, it was bought out by bank of america. nextour mortgage club -- thing i know, our mortgage check

didn't clear. i panicked. i called my congresswoman who put her legal department on it immediately. the four closure proceedings from being filed in the state of connecticut. checks,e me cancel both go and get a bank check, and send it to bank of america immediately. they also found that we had been thatharged $1300 in fees they put a halt to, so we didn't have to pay that. they got us our refund. we were so fortunate that i picked up the phone and called my congresswoman, who puts her legal person on it. to the gentleman who called

earlier with a sarcastic , and his income tax problem, tell him to call the lady that c-span has on tv all the time, the irs tax advocate. host: nina olson? caller: yes. call the irs tax advocate. he will set up a plan for him on how to repay it. it will be done smoothly. people that c-span puts on ank you deeply.ou deepl tell them to call the congresspeople.

they have aids that can help them. your congressional representative can move mountains for you. host: we will leave it there. gretchen morgenson? guest: and sounds like you had a great outcome. i'm very happy to hear it. thank you for being able reader , that's wonderful. i would agree to you as far as reaching out to congress person. i think that is a way to get some help. congresspeople to have legal aides to help their constituents. i'm so glad you got a great result from your reaching out. again, your experience is so when youat i think have people who get rid of those problems, get rid of the $1300 in fees, it is really a wonderful story to hear. i hear so many of the opposite. host: barbara, washington, d.c., a democrat. caller: good morning. host: go ahead with your question or comment. caller: i have a question.

i was looking at getting a reverse mortgage on my house. i was wondering how that lines with a program -- guest: you can't do a reverse mortgage in hand, i am not the expert, but i don't think you can. if you need a loan modification, you should not be talking about a reverse mortgage. if you are thinking of doing a reverse mortgage, i would urge you to make sure you understand all of the fees associated with that mortgage. they do have to provide that information. make sure you are comfortable, if you go forward with it, that you are comfortable with the fees you will be paying to put that mortgage onto your property. host: we will go next to louisiana, john, a republican.

true story, 1981, i moved down to louisiana thanks to the u.s. air force. i owned a house in indiana, which has been vacant for two years. i took two mortgages. and my wife,s, me working two jobs, we finally got out of debt. i asked for no help from anybody because the way i see it, if you cannot afford it, don't buy it. person in thee room is the person signing for the loan. nobody put a gun to their head and made them sign a document. responsibility and accountability are big words "me,"ave been replaced by and "now. all goes back to jimmy carter and the pie-in-the-sky

idea that everybody should own a home. that is a pipe dream. there are people who don't own homes. they are called something -- renters. host: gretchen morgenson? guest: i agree. there are people who should not take on the admin's responsibility of a mortgage. i'm certainly for accountability. i'm for responsibility and all people, whether it is the borrower, the banker, the investor. all across the board, people should take responsibility for their actions. i think there are a lot of borrowers who did understand what they were taking on. yes, they did not have a gun to their head to take on the mortgage, but as you remember, going on.mania house prices could never go down. in addition to the borrower being responsible, the bank should be responsible, and the regulators should be responsible for making sure the bank was responsible. i do not think we are operating

in a country where only the borrower has a responsibility. i think that responsibility should be shared by all parties in the room. people whoat the really want in the situation, which are both the banker and the regulators, and the bar was lost.- borrowers when you have a foreclosure, your credit is ruined. you have no ability -- if you go bankrupt, that lasts on your record for years. the borrower takes the hit. from the got help government, and the regulators actually got promoted and more power with dodd frank. something is wrong with that picture when the only person who took the hit was the borrower. host: let's hear from rate in massachusetts, independent c aller. caller: calling in reference to

ahead wells fargo when i first bought this house in 2000. at that time, i had good credit, but it was the first time i ever applied for a loan. .t was my family's home my mother and father passed away, and i bought it from my brothers and sisters. they gave it to me at 12%. i kept it for two years, and then i went to a credit union, and right now, i dropped it down to a 15 year at 3.25% fixed. i take on the with my taxes and everything else, a total of $710. say andlady would go to credit union in massachusetts, they would help her out. iswells fargo, all they do

review off. i really hope she does. host: all right, ray. we will move on to paul in missouri, a democrat. caller: the only question i have are sallie mae and stillddie mac considering reductions for loans? guest: i'm not sure. for years, they were not considering them because they were subject to a bell out in 2008, and it was felt that they should not reduce the principal owed on mortgages because that would be a burden, that would create losses for franny and fannie and freddie. that may be changing because the companies have become very popular again, starting in 2012. host: chris in brooklyn, a republican. caller: thanks for taking my

call. i agree with the caller from louisiana. gretchen morgenson said the people in the room should have taken the hit. my taxesg charged on so that people can stay in a house they can't afford and so the banks can be bailed out, i don't agree with the at all. this is a free market economy. boys and girls, take your head. that is what it comes down to. if you can afford it, you can't afford it. i can't get on the property ladder because it is all tightened up by people looking at houses that they can't afford. host: what do you mean you can't get on the property ladder? we won't find out. chris is in with us. what is going on now in the housing market because of what happened? guest: first of all, i would like to respond to his comment

that borrowers should take the hit. he made an excellent point, banks got bailed out, they didn't take the hit. their shareholders took the hit. 'su hardly saw a bank top management being removed because of poor management. borrowers should take the hit, i agree, but the banks did not take that hit. what he says his taxes are going examineeally ought to the fact that the bailout money that went to the banks was something that allowed them not to take the hit. i think that is a disparity there that really he should examine. as far as what is happening in the market right now, there are pockets of very hot markets -- new york city, probably washington, d.c. still is, i think, a sense

that the market has not recovered. it is very difficult to get a mortgage to this day. you have to have perfect credit, score, and no s blemishes on your record. it is very difficult for people to borrow and renegotiate their loans. i think that is having a stagnating impact on wife'de swaths of the housing market. host: rose, pennsylvania, a republican. you are on the air. caller: yes. a victim of predatory lending. $50,000,ed a house for , and my house is now with $26,000. i'm going through a lot with this house.

i don't know really what to do with it. i tried getting a loan idification, but i was told just need to try to get out of the loan. time doesn't permit me to go into all the details that i could tell you, but what do you suggest i need to do? thank you, and i will take my answer over the phone. host: thank you, rose. like, unlessnds i'm wrong about the description, the house has gone up in value, which means a very good thing for this person. she should maybe try to sell the house and capitalize on it and take a profit. if i'm not understanding that correctly, and it has gone down in value or stagnant and she needs a loan modification, again, i would urge her to try and find legal assistance to help her maneuver the process

because it is a very complex process. host: i will get in nancy hear from maryland. caller: good morning. anust wanted to share experience, similar to one of your other callers in maryland, affordableme modification program. i was part of a predatory lending with countrywide, when countrywide went down, my loan was sold to bank of america. i went through the modification program. i had similar experiences -- and i was not behind, but i was having financial difficulties. each time i would do that, my papers would get lost, they said they never received them. i did a about three times. this was over a year. finally someone told me to call fannie mae because my house is a

fannie mae house. i went straight to fannie mae, no problem. i didn't have to deal with bank of america again. i got my loan modification in a short time. excellent.'s very happy to hear that. that something great approach, honestly, to go directly to fannie mae, and then you circumvent all the nightmare that people are going through when they tried to deal with the banks. host: we will have to leave it there. gretchen morgenson, we always appreciate your time talking to our viewers on this issue and other financial issues. gretchen morgenson, you can follow her on twitter, also go nytimes.com to follow her reporting. thank you very much. guest: have a great day. host: same to you. up next, we are following a range of issues. we will talk to susan carlson, former first lady of minnesota,

and founder of th an organizatin on fetal alcohol syndrome. later, john jackson will join us, he is chair of the conservation for. we will get his perspective on big game hunting. all of that, right after this break. ♪ >> this sunday night on "q&a," institute of policy studies fellow and activist phyllis bennis on the war on terrorism. >> who is isis? what are their origins? why are they so violent tackle all of those questions are important and i dressed them in the book, but what i think is important in some ways is what is the u.s. policy regarding isis? why isn't it working?

can we really go to war on terrorism? are we doing the war wrong or is it wrong to say this should be a war on terrorism at all? i think those are the questions that in some ways are the most important and most useful. 8:00 easternht at and pacific on c-span's "q&a." >> with the senate in its august break, we will feature book tv programming weeknights and primetime on c-span 2, starting at 8:00 eastern. at the end of the summer, look for two booktv special programs. on september 5, we are live from the national book festival, followed by our live "in depth" program with lynne cheney. booktv on c-span 2. television for serious readers.

>> "washington journal" continues. host: joining us from minneapolis this morning as the former minnesota first lady lady, susan carlson. she is also the president and founder of the minnesota organization on fetal ball syndrome. mrs. carlson, what is fetal ?lcohol syndrome it is now being called fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. what is a? guest: first, i want to thank c-span for bringing this issue before your viewing public. it is a significant issue. in 2004, there was a group that got together and washington, d.c., and they came out with the term fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. it is not diagnostic term. it describes what happens to our y's brain during pregnancy, and the problems that child will have. under the descriptive term, there is still fetal alcohol

-- rome, what we call arbd this is a field filled with acronyms, hopefully we don't confuse the viewing public. simply spoken, it is damage to the baby's brain during pregnancy. the baby's brain is developing all through pregnancy. any alcohol will cause harm to the brain. unfortunately, it is an underrecognized disability. it is the leading cause of developmental disabilities and learning disabilities in the united states and around the world. it is actually more common, than finding more common autism. recent studies are showing that about between 2%-5% nationwide.

is a lot of concern. i have had this concern for many years. host: you have been looking at this for many years. how can you know that it is a problem? what shows up? the obvious, how do you notice a problem? how can you test for it? guest: those are all very good questions and complicated questions. if your viewers know anything about this, they are aware of face of fas.s the we tried to get focus away from andfacial characteristics the actual medical diagnosis. it is small eyes, thin upper lip . those can actually be measured. whatrain damage is really

is causing these children difficulty. in a lot of mental health diagnosis. adhd is probably the most common mental health diagnosis that a child will receive that has damage to the brain. problemsauses learning . i think what is most important is the executive functioning, which is the frontal cortex of the brain. that is what gives folks the ability to think before we act. that is what happens to a lot of the kids in the juvenile justice system. , andare very impulsive they have learning problems, so they don't learn from their mistakes. i think the incidence in the juvenile justice system is a lot will comean what --

but we don't identify them in the juvenile justice system at the time. host: take a look at the statistics about the fetal alcohol spectrum disorders. host: what you are saying is this stays with the child throughout life? guest: this is a permanent disability. quotingistics you were are from a secondary disability study that was done in the 1990's, and then updated this decade. it showed there were 450 d thatduals with fas they looked at what disabilities occurred because of their primary disability which was brain damage.

you showed those statistics. i think what was important about that study is all of those people were getting mental health services. havingt like they aren't problems, they are having problems, but we're not understanding the root of their problems. when we understand the root of their problems, it is much easier to deal with them. that' study also showed that 8, 6, orgnosed early, below, will fare much better. facial features, they will also do better because they are recognized. it is interesting, i was thinking about this before i came on -- there's a lot of attention over autism. i had kids in juvenile court that had autism, but they were and we try toze, understand them and everett them out of the juvenile justice

system. unfortunately, that is not what is happening with this population because it is really an invisible disability. those who have the facial features and the growth , they are the small percentage. the ones who have the brain is 10 times more than those who just of the facial features. host: we are talking about fetal syndrome disorders in the courts with susan carlson, former first lady of tha minnesota. we are taking a questions or comments this morning. let me give you the lines. republicans, (202) 748-8001. democrats, (202) 748-8000. .ndependents, (202) 745-8002 start dialing in now. we will get to your questions and comments on fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. tell us how you got to get an

interest in this, a former attorney as well as judicial officer. inst: it was while i was juvenile court and while i was first lady, i thought kids -- i saw kids that came from substance abuse families. is a hugeabuse problem, and we all know the alcohol is the most commonly used drug. there were a lot of kids coming from substance abuse problems, and they had various mental health diagnoses, conduct adhd, they have learning disabilities. in fact, there was a study done riod of a pee year, and 75% came from families and had

mental health issues. they would talk about -- did this child have brain chama after the? there was never the question brainperhaps having any demo to before birth. i started educating myself, and one of the first books that i dorris's michael gli both. we learned a lot about his son, adam. he was profoundly disabled. i learned that. a doctor, one of the authors of these secondary thebility study, as well as first team that diagnosed the first child back in the early

1970's, i read her book on secondary disabilities. all of a sudden, i just started thing, we are missing so many kids in our system. the psychological evaluation, and they don't ask the questions that would lead us to believe that some child had fasd. i just started getting myself educated. i would come home and talk to arnie about it, and we thought, this is something that we really needed to take a look at. i was chair of a governor task .orce on fas we came up with a plan. do was get wanted to out in the field and see if what i was seeing in the courts with similar out in minnesota. we had nine public hearings. it did confirm what i was saying. there was -- substance abuse was

huge, and alcohol is the most common substance. a lot of these kids have disabilities. you asked about diagnosis. it is a complicated diagnoses, and an extensive diagnosis, but when you look at the cost of these kids, it is, to me, not that expensive. they test if they have learning a day longs through procedure. they talk to the parents about the behavioral problems. it is something that i felt we needed to focus on and minnesota because you really need a visible population. that is one thing we have created in minnesota. youth, andilies, they are owning their diagnosis, and understanding their diagnosis. the parents are understanding it , and it is making a difference

in how the children fare as they go through their school years into adulthood. host: we will get our viewers involved. iris is first in michigan. , how are you doing? listen, i think one of the best indicators is the passive attitude, unemotional, whatever, thank you for your sacrifice. host: not sure where she was going with that. guest: i think she was just trying to describe what she had seen in this population. host: why do you think that is? what about what she said is reflective and this population? i guess i wasn't quite sure what she meant by passive attitude. there are very many cognitive -- i must say, each child is different. that is why you need to get the

particular diagnostic evaluation . that is what is really important to professionals. we don't want to generalize. i think the executive functioning skills are critical. that is what you and i did to prepare for today. , if it'sformation interpreting, and we prepared. these kids, they have a hard time doing that. studies show when you have -- they can see that these kids take a lot more brain energy to .o the same task they get very exhausted from doing the same thing. that is where the problems come up. washington, d.c., democrat. you are on there, question or comment? caller: i had a comment about how the situation is going

unnoticed. a lot of these kids end up in trouble. it is going unnoticed. that is an issue here in washington, d.c. host: susan carlson, how are these kids being treated? if you don't know that their behavior is related to alcohol as an infant, in the womb, how do you treat them? guest: those are couple of different questions. the first one was really important that they are being recognized. i just returned from a of juvenile and family court judges. that is something that really needs to happen. we need to start asking the question about prenatal alcohol exposure anytime a youth comes into the system or into the

child protection system. we don't do that. once you can get the prenatal alcohol exposure history, then you can begin to unravel if they ,ave the behavior problems learning problems, attention problems. it may not be just one thing, but a constellation of difficulties that this child has . then they could be referred for the full diagnostic evaluation. we exited that -- we actually did that and screened those who scored high on the mental health test, and then a significant percent of those received a diagnosis. we had to know our population because when we first started,

we were screening everybody, and it was much too high. i think it is really an unrecognized disability. it doesn't surprise me. substance abuse in our systems is huge. it really is. even alcohol use in our society is significant. that is kind of the problem because it is a legal drug. one of the most important things i tell our judges that are learning, the research is clear, the issue ofust the day. this is over 40 years of research. animal research and human there isthat has shown this disability, and it is not just the face, it is the brain. there's all this research showing that, but we don't have that same research for other drugs. in fact, i don't know -- you

probably don't remember, but the cocaine babies in the late , cocainee're finding does not show the same long-term harm that alcohol does. host: once you make this diagnosis, how do you treat these kids that are in the juvenile justice system? guest: i think recognition first of all that it is a disability. those that are going to treat the child have to understand what the disability is whether particular disability what their particular disability is. i had a young man who i had seen on the bench, and i was the project director of our screening program, and they came to me and said, this kit is one

of our most difficult kids. treatments,in 11-12 and we don't know what to do with him. we had him screened, and he came back with partial fas. his in-home family therapist had been trained and his disability, and we sent him to a group home that had also been trained. when he got there, he displayed a lot of the behaviors, but they understood what was causing those behaviors. i think it is an understanding of people who are dealing with this population makes a big difference. , he had no credits when he came to the home. he got his ged, worked in the community, and the last i heard, he wanted to go into the army. this is a young man that was not he was going to go down

the path that end up in our prisons, but because of the intervention, it made a difference. i must say that his probation officer who was skeptical about the whole thing came up to me later and said, that was so much better for this young man. i know it can work. maybe not in every case, but i have had parents, foster parents, adoptive parents, to me and thanked me. it is kind of like a parent -- you have a roadmap for chicago and you are in st. louis, missouri, how can you navigate? that is kind of what this is about. host: more calls. joe in atlanta, republican. hey, greta, you look great. thank you for taking my call. real quickquestions go qui

. does planned parenthood help with this? do they help mothers with helping their children with this fetal syndrome thing? ,ne question for you, greta will you have donald trump? i would like to see you do that. c-span.org, we have been interviewing several of the candidates, you can find that interviews there. susan carlson? guest: that is an interesting question. but i would say is i think planned parenthood helping women get out of control will obviously be a significant piece women getting pregnant, particularly those who are at risk and have substance abuse problems. in that respect, i think they can provide a valuable service. duringot just drinking

pregnancy, it is also preventing pregnancy. host: marianne in virginia, independent. yes, c-span, thank you for bringing this issue to the forefront. my son, who is 20 has fetal alcohol syndrome, he is adopted. it was really a nightmare raising him. he is still very severely impacted, adhd, and select the .- dyslexic he can't handle money, he has been arrested, he's an at addict. very few of the doctors, psychologists, teachers, and principles that we dealt with know about this fetal alcohol syndrome. how can we get the word out about what this is and how to treat these folks? guest: i think that is an excellent question.

that in theeful past couple of years, we have seen remarkable changes on the national level on this issue di. the first one is the american academy of pediatrics. they developed a tool for pediatricians to help with recognizing and getting kids diagnosed. s -- awere all the result committee out of the and i a a niaaa. i think what is going to happen in the mental health field will be huge. acronym,tion of a new neurobehavioral development with

prenatal alcohol exposure. it is in the appendix but it also puts in a diagnostic code which is payment for services. health the mental practitioners will start recognizing it. one of the issues i will be working on and i would welcome your viewer that just called, we into -- to get f asd autism is in their, and f asd is not. are inf the youth special ed the different categories and there is not specific training. if you put it in there will have

to be specific training on how these educators deal with use fasd. with the treatments will not work for these youth. done have there been tests on how much alcohol is problematic? of course women are told when they get pregnant not to drink by their doctors. there was a study of couple of years ago that found it was fine moderately, drink one drink or something like that. do we know that women should not be drinking period? unfortunate that we as a society have not said -- have not taken it seriously. a lot of mixed messages women get about use of alcohol during pregnancy. i think the study you are

referring to is the one out of denmark. unfortunately, they did not actually say that you could drink and the surgeon general back in 1981, that was one of the first surgeon general's that said women should not drink during pregnancy. it was reissued in 2005. the message is, you should not drink. , if youo equate it to want to have a drink during pregnancy, which you give that same drink to your-day-old baby? for your toddler? we as a society would say that would be child-abuse if you gave a child alcohol yet the connection from the mother through the placenta is a much more direct connection as it is later on for babies and toddlers. i think we have to reframe the issue. there are studies that show moderate amounts of alcohol can

cause harm. months.ne -- it is likeomen russian roulette. not every child the gets exposed to alcohol is going to be damaged. it is based on the amount of alcohol and we know that inch drinking is the most -- binge drinking is the most harmful. a study out of a midwestern town found it was binge drinking on the weekends before they knew they were pregnant. they ended up having a child with asd. the message has to go even further. we have not talked about the study that just came out, a large study of teenagers and a significant percent of those

pregnant teens were using alcohol. i think it has to start really early in the schools and the home. host: rene. maryland, independent. caller: thank you for taking my call. i do educational testing in the schools and just recently became aware of fetal alcohol syndrome. i'm curious to know more information. perspective,stic how would we know if this would be an issue for a child? a lot of parents really underreport their alcohol and drug usage so there is no knowing this could be a problem. you talk a little bit -- talk a little more about interventions. what can we do in the schools? guest: that is a next

question. i think what is going to happen, if we can get fasd into the idea, you'll find more education happening of teachers. not knowing whether the child difficult.t is i must say that when we did screening of our youth in hennepin county, we did not have a lot of difficulty getting that information from the bio moms. it is how you phrase the questions. generally if you ask about drinking habits before they knew they were pregnant, they will freely talk about that. then you ask them when they knew they were pregnant. it takes away that stigma. that is one of the issues we seriously are working in minnesota to get away from that stigma. until we get away from the stigma of the mom and the child,

this will be an issue that will stay under the radar. we had a bio mom that spoke at our last fundraiser and she got up and talked about the culture of drinking in her family and she did not understand that it would cause that kind of harm. she was very brave and got up and at the end of it she got a standing ovation. i'm hoping that the school districts, once we get it into idea and we get the stigma away kids can get these identified. psychiatristsof having this in their diagnostic manual will provide that opportunity. i'm hopeful that in the next several years this will be a major change. host: kelly, a democrat. good morning. caller: good morning. this is generally not popular.

i would like to introduce the idea of nutrition, like the previous to caller said, what can we do in the schools? feed them good food. i have observed in many times that somebody that is really -- really seems to be very sick, if ,ou feed them the proper foods some ongoing thing of children rating -- raising gardens. , for people who , is this diagnosis for kids there certain things they should eat? if their medication they can take? -- is their medication they can take? guest: the research now and one researchst exciting

happening at the university of minnesota is the use of choline. choline is in the yoga bags, liver -- is in the yoke of eggs, liver. toing choline supplements two and three-year-olds, showing significant increase in memory and cognition. they are looking at giving choline to pregnant moms that have chemical dependency problems. showing it will lessen the harm to developing brains. with the age of the brain and the research going on, we will have a lot of solutions. i think the caller makes a lot of sense. i think nutrition can help the brain. i think exercise -- one of our researchers says the best thing,

one of the things is exercise. playing the piano forces the brain to do different things. the problem is, we have not had the population -- we do but it has not been identified. when we identify it, hopefully the money will come. that will help these youth with the disabilities and we will start recognizing them earlier where you can make a big difference. so we won't have all those secondary disabilities. host: we will hear from sally. silver springs, maryland. caller: this is a great program. i have heard of this spectrum for quite a while. one thing i have been wondering, does the father have some responsibility as to this problem? i also think they probably should stop treating before they -- stop drinking before they think they will have children

and also, does it matter whether it is beer or other alcohol? guest: those are great questions. let me answer the easiest one. alcohol is alcohol. when we were doing our screening, one of the moms said, i don't trick any alcohol, i just drink beer. amount. cause the same in child protection we have had women who would trick a case of beer in a day -- drink a case of beer in a day. alcohol is alcohol. the other questions were -- host: i am blanking as well. oh shoot. we will move on to john in harrisburg, pennsylvania. guest: i'm sorry. host: no worries. go ahead, john. caller: my mother was an

alcoholic. us, my sister and i. she drank really heavy. i was put away when i was six it.s old because of a children's home until i was six years old. from six to 14, i went to a place called 10 hearst -- penn hearst. i don't drink. more because no i've seen what it did to my mother. she was an alcoholic and it caused me to be put away and stuff like that. i went through stuff because of it. was supposed to be retarded but i proved to them i did not

belong there. i made my way through. three biological daughters and one son. stepdaughters. i have been doing good. i am still seeing a psychiatrist. he has been helping me a lot. i just wanted to to say i'm glad you guys are having this program. this is getting ridiculous. these people that are killing and drinking and don't know which way to go. host: that was john. guest: i just want to commend john. through my experience in the court, this becomes a generational problem. you have a lot of the mothers

having children that have been exposed. they have a high risk of substance abuse. the one thing we learned, if you identify that first child, you don't want to have one, but if you have to have one, that woman is more likely to have another child with fasd. that's why it is important to start identifying these kids. he shows he does not have to go down that path. he has done well. once you recognize and understand -- a lot of these people have creative skills. brain damage does not take away that ability to saying or draw or paint -- sing or draw or paint. host: our producer remembered what the caller asked about, the father's responsibility.

guest: the evidence is not as clear as to whether an alcoholic or someone who is drinking during conception, the sperm re.t gets in the research is not clear on that. we don't want to take fathers off the hook because they are the ones that influence women in tricking habits. drinking habits. it is a culture. i don't want to take men off the hook. , founder ofcarlson the minnesota organization of fetal alcohol syndrome. i appreciate you joining us for this conversation. guest: it has been a pleasure. host: we will switch topics. turning our attention to big-game hunting. we will talk to john jackson, chairman of the conservation force.

he will talk about a hunter's perspective on big-game hunting after this break. ♪ night on q and a, institute for policy studies fellow and antiwar activist phyllis venice on u.s. foreign-policy since 9/11 and the war on terrorism. >> who is isis? all of those questions are important and address them in the book. i think what is more important, because it is something we can do something about, what is the u.s. policy regarding isis? why isn't it working? can we really go to war against terrorism? is it wrong to say there should be a war against terrorism at all? i think those are the questions that in some ways are the most important and will be the most useful. >> sunday night and eat :00 eastern and pacific on c-span's

q and a. pacific00 eastern and on c-span's q and a. >> booktv programming in primetime on c-span 2 starting at 8:00 p.m. eastern. look for two booktv special programs on saturday, september 5 we are live from our nations capital for the 15th annual national book festival. followed on sunday with our formerh program with second lady and senior fellow at the american enterprise institution, lynne cheney. >> washington journal continues. host: we are back. joining us from louisiana is john jackson, chairman of the rce.ervation fo you recently wrote in usa today the opposing view on big-game

hunting to give the hunters perspective. you wrote, safari hunting brings benefits. you write that if it weren't for regulated hunting in africa, most african lions would cease to exist. explain. guest: that is a lot to explain. the fish and wildlife service and review of the status of the threats werefound a loss of habitat, conflicts with local people and loss of prey base. the hunting community provides those things, the most habitat per lion. the largest part of the budget revenue for management of all wildlife in the african nations. it provides the first line of defense against poaching. a conservation tool.

been national and international workshops on how to save the african lion. hunting was found not to be the cause of the decline but the solution and a method of saving african lions in the wild. host: most habitat for lions. how is that? guest: the fish and wildlife service in its review said the amount of habitat that has been set aside specifically for trophy hunting has increased the range in habitat of lions. hunting has not been perceived to be the problem but the solution. in most countries, the largest part of lion range is in the hunting areas. lienargest remaining population is in tanzania. 60,000 to 18,000 lions. there hunting -- 16 to 18 --

60,000 to 18,000 lions. if you eliminated anything to compromise that habitat, you would eliminate half the lions in africa. that is one sample. host: how does it work in a country like tanzania? these hunting parks? who owns them? how does an american hunter get there and how does the process work for them to obtain a permit to go to these parts and hunt big-game? century,er the last since the time of teddy roosevelt, hunting has been used as a means of establishing value to local people and setting aside habitat outside of the national parks. it's considered by the international union for the conservation nature to be protected areas but there are different kinds of areas.

those are gazetted by the government. as national parks in tanzania and five times larger than national parks in kenya. .ou also have other habitats communal management programs where the local people are involved and become partners in hunting operations so that you will have horrid doors between the national parks and -- corridors between the national parks. also it's of licenses and excise taxes. just like here in america. huntersstem where the pay the bills. most of the bills for the operating budget are wildlife

management departments. in the united states, it is 72% of the operating budgets of our state budgets. might be closer to africa. they pay so much more than resident hunters. that is what african hunting is. it is not resident hunting. we call it tourist safari hunting. host: the new york times has a front-page story this morning about big-game hunting. their story, the best way to save lions, hunt them, some experts contend. they write that lion hunts bring in between 24,000 and 71,000 per outing across africa. is it guaranteed that a hunter will kill a lion? guest: that is an understatement of how much it costs. my information is more like

$110,000. $70,000 inet down to less romantic destinations. does that answer your question? host: are you guaranteed to kill a lion? guest: absolutely not. this is a hunt in the wild. you can go on 20 without seeing a shoot of a lion -- a shootable lion that meets your understanding of what you want. any number of things like that. lion hunting is a high risk hunting. very low success rate. host: you argue that if this habitat did not exist for hunting at the lion population

would decreased radically? explain why? who would be killing these liens? guest: the land would be converted. this is a competition over space. wildlife habitats do not exist by accident. it has to beginning something of value to local people otherwise it will be converted to agriculture and livestock. hunting does not simply pay for itself, it pays for bills for everything, national parks that all lose money. host: let's get our viewers involved. ashley, it republican of florida. -- republican in florida. caller: i would like to ask this gentleman if he owns animals. i guarantee you would not like anyone shooting his animals. they all have personalities, even wild animals.

secondly, if it is about conservation, white not write a check? i hear this on all social media sites from holders -- from hunters. i guarantee you don't tell your friend when you're going to africa, i'm going to save some liens. you're going to kill the animals to bring it back so you could put it back on your wall. for anyone that is against trophy hunting and is considering voting for donald trump, his son recently went to africa and killed an elephant and cut off its tail. it's not about conservation. you are telling yourself that to make yourself feel better and make people not judge you. we all know it is simple to kill an animal. there are projects going on with asia.nts in a project called chain free project in asia. it is working with the locals to tell them how to care and manage

animals. they can adapt. it does not mean if you were not killing these animals to land would be converted and the land would be gone. beh this money, you could donating to real nonprofits were working on change who really need the money. these people could be going into local communities like they are and educating people on respect for animals. they need money, there would be no printers because they have the money from you guys. you are fueling this trade and it is sick making -- it is sickening. shame on you. guest: i don't know if that was a question. the reality is, my organization represents hunting organizations and their missions to save wildlife. the 18th largest ngo in africa out of 290. we spend tens of millions of dollars on wildlife conservation in africa and around the world. to african lion, over three

-- over $3 million to $5 million over the last five years. we put the most money on the ground in most countries for the most species. that is what this nonprofit does night and day. stakeholders, stewards of the wildlife in this habitat. game, you'rehave not going to have game. it is not generate revenue, it will be replaced. there is no question. organization, my paid $125,000 and participated in the national action plan for liens to update their national action plan. the second-largest elephant

population in the world. that was a responsibility we assumed as the hunting community to do that. before that, i was working in wenke national park to persuade people to give up cattle and agriculture and enter into the safari industry to generate revenue for the communities next to them that would otherwise poach wildlife. these are scientific strategies by the world's foremost experts in africa. , lion numbers are increasing. elephant numbers are stable. in many instances where hunting is used as a tool for its conservation. my organization's name is conservation force, using hunting as a force for conservation. .t exists in america

7 million while turkeys, 55 .illion pair of waterfowl the safari industry is the ducks unlimited of africa. host: the chairman of conservation force. his also a sport hunting advocate. former chairman of the safari club international. he wrote the opposing view in usa today from a hunter's respective. marie, your next. caller: hello. i am happy about the woman that last called and told the truth about everything she said. why would you want to kill something so beautiful? do you realize the pain they have when you are shooting these arrows and everything into them? it is not fair. every animal should have a right to live. host: let's take that. what is the appeal for shooting a lion?

guest: it is hard to explain what hunting means in human terms. .t is a high order experience some of the greatest wildlife managers and leaders in america know. it, you can'tuntil you know explain it. it is a special, natural relationship with an animal. , aticularly with a lion is, theere all that greater the experience in the depths of the experience to the hunter cannot be explained. because it is a higher-order relationship, it is beyond explanation. not explain could it and said that it could not be explained to someone who hasn't done it. the nature of hunting is that the more that you do it, the more it enlivens your senses spiritually and physically.

the better the experience, the deeper the experience. that is what turns hunters into conservationist. he was a hunter. ones payingare the the bills. it is the core of their lives. they are very intense about their experiences. that is the nature of hunting. it is real, whether or not it can be explained. like love and affection. woman, and vice versa. it is beyond explanation. it, those people that know have experienced it, can know it's real. host: dittmer, missouri. independent. caller: yes, hello? host: good morning, you are on the air. caller: i have a couple of questions. his organization, primarily a lot of the donations go to

lobbying to have a lot of these protection acts removed. there is the polar bear protection act that prevented them from being brought in as trophies. his organization was successful in that, now polar bears can be shot and brought in. they also lobbied fish and wildlife to keep lyons off the endangered species list. off the endangered species list. they claim to be conservationists, but the sei has a trophy room. 290 kills on endangered species, the man who won this year. how is that a conservation group? host: mr. jackson, your response? guest: ducks, you mount ducks with wooden decoys on your wall. it is that simple.

ducks unlimited has saved 13 million acres of wetland habitat , the largest wetland habitat organization in the world. ,en it comes to lions, that is a different situation. you mentioned a number of different species and each one would take a lot to explain. i'm not a lobbyist, i'm not paid. i do write laws. i drafted the conservation act for congress. before that a fellow hunting buddy, a congressman from the houston sporting club, jack wrote the african elephant conservation act and fund. i have participated in trying to pass the great acts conservation fund, providing $5 million per later notfor 10 years get congress to act, including those that just introduced withlation to stop hunting

hunting imports. no one wants to pay the bills except the hunters. they have the most at stake. we are of course talking up -- host: we are of course talking about this because of dr. palmer, killing settle the lion. -- cecil the lion. legislation has been introduced -- this from bob menendez -- host: the act introduced by the senator would curb the killing of species that are proposed to be listed as threatened or endangered and extend import and export protections for species and prohibit the import of any trophies from such animals without explicitly obtaining a permit from the interior department. your reaction to this

legislation? guest: this is crazy. the last thing you want to do. the fish and wildlife service that has made the proposal has specifically found that hunting was not a problem. it was part of the solution. radioed one excerpt from the final findings. found that if trophy hunting is part of a scientifically-based management program, it could provide significant benefit to the species, reducing and removing incentives by locals to kill lyons in retaliation for livestock losses and conversion of the lion habitat to agriculture." i have already explained that most habitats or liens are in hunting areas. it speaks for itself. the amount of habitat set aside specifically for trophy hunting has greatly increased the range and habitat of lyons and their prey base.

which is imperative, given the current ongoing rate of habitat destruction in africa. this is the fish and wildlife service. you have got to understand that this senator is proposing to stop that. [laughter] to theposal is contrary findings of the fish and wildlife service. sessions, planning all the programs -- over $1 million in planning that has gone over the last -- gone on over the last four years. those people that think if they pay, it will stay. a lion particularly has a negative value. the fastest way to get rid of a lion is to impose these restrictions and drive the price down. replace prey animals and lion with livestock? part andanimals on the those that come out will disperse like rabbits.

they will all be killed off because the the cattle. the -- they eat to he cattle. theign species do not get same benefits from listing as domestic species. let me explain. you list of the mastech species in the united states. first, set aside a critical habitat. you have no jurisdiction in africa. foract does not provide foreign countries. so, this is misleading thinking that it will help the species. especially if the act causes the population to decline because it removes habitat, which is one of the factors that was found as a -- foror threatened threat. the first line of defense of

poaching in the hunting community -- there are three levels of anti-poaching. you have the game department, the wildlife department. in this case a zimbabwe wildlife parks and management authority. most of their revenue, in many cases all of their revenue, comes from the tourist hunting. the parks operate at a loss. all of the value outside the parks comes in large part from hunting. you don't want to eliminate the operating revenue, the budget? the second line of defense is the hunting operator. hunting operators have to protect their investment. they all have anti-poaching teams. virtually all of them. they spend $1 million per year in those sessions. single operators. this is a necessity. just like here in north america, posting land. third, communities have been

incentivized to have anti-poaching teams of their own. game scouts. these are the three levels of anti-poaching. hunting is at the center of it. these are just some small examples of why you don't want to list an animal. host: a headline for our viewers. an update on cecil the lion. some of my said that his people failed to protect cecil the lion. inside "the washington post," this morning it said that the president was intent on using the lion as a metaphor. first four exploitation. and then the inability of his fellow countrymen to preserve their own resources. i want to get your reaction to that other recent hairline -- headline. airlines are banning big-game trophies. no longer allowing airlines to

-- no longer will the airlines allow hunters to bring back their trophies. guest: this is tragic. concerning. they say they want to support these range nation governments and conservation strategist. this is just the opposite. the ministers are one by one criticizing this. it is probably illegal. the ministers, these airlines operate in those countries. this is contrary to the public policy. conservation strategy -- host: how much does a hunter paid to bring back and how do you go about bringing back the head of a lion, if you have killed one, or whatever other big game species like that? guest: there is a whole industry built around this. everyone tries to involve the local, indigenous people as much as possible. it begins in the field. bawlingcommunity and

the skulls, tagging everything and getting it ready in the field. they transport it in town. taxidermist get to work on it. it is prepared for shipment and sent to the airline or any other means of transportation. there is all sorts of permitting . zimbabwe just did something common in africa. the are going to require presence of a game scouts that hunters pay for. leopard, lion, and elephant hunts on private property. this is a new development. i think it is a positive development. another burden on the hunting community, but it is a good burden.

if i can answer that about the airline, it is a mistake. i don't think that public can do something against public policy in these foreign countries and there is no question that if it was successful -- and they really could not bring a trophy home? the prices would fall. the land would fall. the prey would fall. the fields would be left empty. like a house empty. diffusing the poachers, that is not good. [laughter] at the would fall wildlife department. it would be the fastest way to get rid of wildlife and wildlife places in africa. host: let's go to ginger in st. petersburg, florida. caller: i would like to thank your guest for informing us on all aspects. my view on it is that the practice of trophy hunting is antiquated. it goes back to the 19th century

and the days of buffalo bill. thank god for organizations like the autobahn society. were murdered while nesting, babies were left to languish in their nests. right here in our own state we are being affected by hunting practices. recently ran an article about people wearing orange vest when they visit state parks because the government wants to start shooting black bears. the recently endangered florida panther. i guess my question to the guest way ors -- is there a even a desire to put some seed money toward market research and analysis to see if there is any way possible to develop

lucrative ecotourism in zimbabwe? host: we will take that. john jackson, did you hear that? caller: ecotourism. guest: i am a founding member of the ecotourism society. many of the hunting operators i have right to partner with in the wild -- i have tried to partner with in the wild have ecotourism and hunting operations. it is not uncommon that it can before needed and be done. ecotourism is part of the solution. but it will not carry the weight itself. hunting, tourists safari hunting as we call it, and ecotourism combined will not carry the weight. there is much more needed. it's crazy, any idea of cutting back on revenue for a negligible offtake. both.d ecotourism is very important and i fully support it. host: outside of the cost of the

permits for hunting, how much does it cost to go back to our conversation about the airlines, how much does it cost to bring back one of these trophies? permitting process, etc., give us a range. is $2000 to $10,000 to ship your trophies home. crating and weight, charge my measurements -- whichever is greater. -- charged by measurements, whichever is greater. [laughter] host: lynn, utah. caller: hi. the guest has asked us to accept that what he gets out of killing cannot be explained. i would like to ask him to consider something that may seem unexplainable to him, but that is that you keep using this phrase -- there has to be value and explaining that there won't be value unless killing is allowed. i would like to ask you to

rededicate your life. huntersencourage those that have come to you in the past and may come to you in the future and just ask them to do nott their safari killing. to leave out the negative part. the reason i am asking you this is that there is a high percentage of people in this world who disapprove strongly of what you are doing. consider?at least give it a little bit of thought? doing something good without the killing. host: ok, john jackson? guest: i think that hunters do do a lot outside of the actual pulling the trigger. the ultimate act in the hunt. that it ishave said hard to explain. i have some of my own donations. i think that photographic tourism is part of the hunt. but it is not a complete hunt.

it is like voyeurism. it's not a relationship. it's something less. the hunt is the ultimate natural act. i can tell you this. i know the lion. i know the elephant. like only a hunter can know them. i would not have wanted to live without experiencing it. i hope that more people can do it. we need more hunters and more of what they can produce. host: have you been to africa to hunt? and if so, what animals have you hunted there? guest: i'm sorry? i was thinking about my answer. what animals have i hunted, personally? host: yes. guest: i have the closest personal relationship with elephants. they really mean something to me. one lion. i have hunted it 25 times,

maybe. polar bear. i took a white rhino. never been able to afford a black myself. i loved hunting elk in the rockies. dear across the southern states. -- deer across the southern states. number of species. i focus on the ones meaningful to me. on my will, on a gravestone it will say that your lies myself, he knew the elephant. here lies say -- myself, he knew the elephant. host: how do you respond to this are -- article is morning. ,alking about dr. palmer "consider his brand of hunting -- host: is that hunting?

guest: it is a way of hunting. it is no different -- not 100% experience, but i don't know if that really describes what happened here. there is a lot of misinformation about dr. palmer from the get go. i assume that that is what is causing the outrage. octor, most of what has been said is not true. thisig craze in the media weekend was that a cup had been killed. no, not killed, slaughtered. wasn't true. before that, jericho had been killed by a hunter in the park. the brother. the reality is that jericho is not a brother and wasn't killed recentlyis is the most -- at all.

this is the most recently. it started with this drug. that is not true. and elephant in the reserve -- preserve caused the lion to be there. some of the work that i did has caused this to be an expansion area for lions out of the park. the wildlife department wants it to explant -- expand the wildlife into the buffer zone to benefit the local people. so that they will tolerate the lion and is not introduced cattle and livestock -- not reintroduce cattle and livestock. this is all success. imagine instead of having game animals there, they had livestock. young, nomadic males would disperse. they could double and triple

their populations in two or three years. they really do reproduce like rabbits. you really have to have that in a con -- conservation system. they want the buffer zones to absolve these expansions. the expansion in the valley conservancy, which the government is calling reserve, this is a positive thing. host: katie is next in new york. i respect your right. i think that hunting has always played a role in population control. the hunting of exotic animals has always been a status symbol. you mentioned teddy roosevelt. here on long island, it has been there. it smells like formaldehyde because of the and animals from room to room. there is a polar bear. lion skins, that's fine. tohink that you can go there

aid in conservation and pay the hundreds of thousands in permitting fees, all of that. ablenk you should not be to bring that animal back to the united states. i think that with all of that money, you can give it to the local economy. they can process the kill. process it. i don't even know if you can eat any of that meet. i think that in our modern world we have excellent cameras. we have seen the pictures of people posing with these wild animals you have shot. you have the right to shoot them, there is a purpose there. but there is no purpose as us -- except that as a status symbol in the united states to have the evidence of what you have done. saidve me a chill when you you wanted your epitaph to be you knew the elephant. did you know the elephant in life, or only from stocking it and killing it? and killing it?

shotgunning from all of those pellets. i'm not sure which one to ask. host: what about not allowing the hunters to bring back the trophies? take that. guest: the animal is going to be killed anyway. they trymanagers, what to do is substitute a better use for the wildlife than just being killed because it is a vermin. a lien would be a vermin for sure. it eats livestock, people, game scouts, park rangers, it kills tourists. five tourists were killed by a lion in one month at a national park i was at. wardene other day a game in zimbabwe was killed. a park guard in a national park. disappearals will unless they are given a positive value. is turning avalue

rock into a perl. l. pear it generates revenue and incentivizes the local people. that is crucial. we have not gotten there yet with this. particularly with this large beast that don't eat vegetables. large beasts that duty vegetables, like elephant. a lion eats 10 pounds of meat or. and elephant eats 500 pounds or more of crops. an elephantant -- eats 500 pounds or more of crops. you need to give them value on the borders. the buffer areas. to convert the dispersing aram -- dispersing animals into a valuable resource to be protected by the government. that is why there are so many affected hunting areas that were designated and presented by the

governments and apartments in africa. it is a system that works. it is where most wildlife still exists. if you poll of foundation from this, you threaten a foundation, you make it more difficult and reduce the price and the revenue. i would not advise it. a little knowledge is dangerous. we all have our sentiments about animals. i promise you, i have put my .ife, my wife's life into this it's genuine and real. the fish and wildlife service says so. larry, republican, california. you are on the air. caller: i want to say that you really look good in blue. i wanted to ask you something. in big-game hunting -- can you hear me? host: we're listening. caller: why is it that those who -- cats and animals

host: sorry, we had difficulty understanding you there. this from twitter -- host: we are going to hear from carol in texas. independent. caller: please don't cut me off. i have two quick comments. first of all, caesar was a rare, beautiful lion and it is hard for me to believe that this war experienced hunter did not realize that when he took him out. also, he took the shot way too late at night.

he talked about you couldn't explain just what it is that people experience. he went on to experience it -- explain it. after the first kill, especially. i'm going to jump in because we only have a few minutes left and i want him to and whato dr. palmer dr. palmer has said is that he did not realize it was cecil a lion. is that feasible? that he would not realize which lion it was? if so, are they not tracked properly in these parks? why would he not know who that lion is? guest: the more important question that you might realize, the program of the wild crew in the u.k. at the national park is to caller the lion. particularly males.

and tracked them. so that when they do leave the for, when they disperse whatever reason, the livestock, because they are overpopulated, when they leave the park it is one and a half times the size of yellowstone. they want to know the cause of death. this is management and hunting quotas, so forth, scientifically advised. this is one of the purposes in the article. these studies have been published by the groups that do this. they virtually caller every lion. literally. expected that it will be killed. the question is -- will it be poisoned? this particular park has four different environments on four different side. be a conservancy where they try to turn that into a

reserve for hunting? to expand the park with wildlife and pray? withll it be in the south almost one million communal people that still raise cattle? therefore they kill every single line across it. you cannot hunt lion over there because there are not any. liens by the thousands have been killed for decades. that is the real fate of the lion. the answer is that that is the way it works. host: what do you suspect the fish and wildlife service will be investigating? what do you think they will find? the cream of america are the safari hunters. professional people. more likely than not. he will be found innocent.

to play the probabilities. the probability is that he had no reason to know and he did have a professional license. apologize, but i want to be able to thank you for being on the show and we are ending in less than five seconds. i have to say goodbye. thank you very much. more to learn their. john jackson, with conservation force. you can go to conservationforce.org for more information as this debate continues in this country. thank you to all of you for watching today and for participating in today's program. we will be back here tomorrow morning at 7 a.m. eastern time. enjoy the rest of your day. ♪ [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2015]