>> tonight this summer marks the 25th anniversary of digital television. how modern television has changed. >> what many of us -- and that's increasing every day -- are watching in a multiscreen world, and that has been one of he more exciting outcomes of

this whole digital revolution. so it used to be that there was a stationary screen and with hdtv that was a big screen in the living room. but with the internet and the reless world extending things, now you have tab let's wifi all phones and over the place. such that tv is not just a stationary lean-back experience in the living room but very much of a mobile experience wherever you want to go. and it's also video. >> the brookings institution recently released a study place such that tv is not just a ationary lean-back with suggestions on how to make financial services more accessible around the globe. last week the brookings institution host add discussion on that study.

>> good morning. e have set up a twitter feed so we would welcome any comments that you have on that. globely there are about 2 billion individuals who suggestions on do not accounts.

this

and identify opportunities to broaden access to financial services. e examine four dimensions

commitments make a difference in terms of progress towards financial inclusion? to what extent do mobile and other digital technologies advance financial inclusion? and what legal commitments make difference in terms of progress job of policy promoting financial inclusion? so we analyze in nearly two dozen different nations that brazil, colombia,

india, indonesia, approaches do the best

not too many years ago there's been enormous growth in the number of money deployment which is are really playing a fundamental role in many jurisdictions. there's also a clear -- we see clearly the multiple pathways to financial inclusion. in some countries for example places like kenya mobile money that is using mobile phones as platform for transactions has been absolutely fundamental part of the inclusion story. but

there's no one size fits all. the good news we're seeing good progress on multiple pathways. the other observation is that in our study we did emphasize and take a very careful look at mobile and nonbank financial service providers. we believe that these are increasingly important mechanism force financial inclusion just because of the complexity of the geography and the infrastructure in many places it will be a very long you'll ever, before branches ional bank bricks and mortar in many of the, for example, smaller villages in towns and some of these countries where many of these are covered or will be covered by very good mobile phone service and that allows that mobile phone to serve as a platform for financial transactions. five key for example, smaller

villages in towns and some of these countries where many of these are covered or will be findings. country commitments matter. there are multinational financial inclusion networks alliance for financial inclusion which is we have the declaration through that. countries that have signed up for the declaration are in most cases making good on the commitments associated with that. there are countries that have joined the better than cash alliance which has also been a critically important organization for promoting financial inclusion. so the countries that actively engage in those sorts of networks in general we found that those networks are extremely important and extremely effective in promoting inclusion. secondly digital financial service ks accelerate financial inclusion. there are enormous advantages associated with digital and many environments. that doesn't mean there aren't also concerns. for example cyber security. but on balance we believe that

digital financial transactions offer enormous advantages in terms of alliance for financial security, efficiency, cost sufficiency, access locations and so on. so as those services become more common we believe that that will have a positive feedback cycle with respect to promoting financial inclusion. third, geography generally matters less than policy legal and regulatory changes. that said we still observe some regional trends. for example, as i mentioned a moment ago you see mobile money being much more common in places that lack as much of a traditional banking infrastructure whereas in places with more extensive infrastructure you see mobile money playing less of a central role and banking correspondents playing a more central role. fourth, coor coordination among key players in the space is really important. clearly if you're looking at something like mobile money

that impacts the telecommunications industry but it also impacts banks and ministries of finance and things like that. so there are complex questions that then face governments and regulatory bodies and so on when you try to make sure that these service ks be provided available at reasonable cost and critically can be interoperable. so for example a consumer is not locked only into extending or receiving money to and from people that happen to be customers of the same mobile phone networks. so coordination is an area where it's extremely important for governments and also the private sector to be engaged. then finally but last but certainly not least full financial inclusion cannot be achieved without addressing the gender gap. we're certainly not the first to recognize this. it's well recognized that there's a persistent gender gap

under which women are often significantly more excluded from access to formal financial services than men. and of course you cannot have full financial inclusion unless you have financial inclusion for everybody including women. so closing that gender gap which unfortunately has not appeared to close in the last couple of years in general is something that is really important. the other final point i will mention is it's also important to account for diverse cultural context. different countries have different infrastructures. in the philippines, pawn shops have become very important sort of physical locations for money transmission. you can go to a pawn shop and give them money and they will transfer its to somebody else somewhere else in the philippines who can pick it up somewhere else. so different countries have

different existing infrastructure that can be leveraged. one place may not necessarily be applicable in another place. we plan to publish another reported a year from now. we are very interested in continuing to foster dialogue among the many very active and critically important in this space which includes not only private sector companies, the alliance for financial inclusion and of course the governments themselves that are trying to work to promote film inclusion in these countries. that we welcome

feedback. we want feedback. any time you're trying to devise a scoring system there are choices that you make and it is impossible to design a system that is perfect. we think we've done a reasonably good job but we are also confident that we can do a better job. so we would welcome feedback on ways that we can improve our analysis in the future so that we can have an even better product as we continue with this project. that we welcome and we are also considering expanding the scope of a number of countries beyond the 21 that we've identified in this first report. so we would welcome suggestions on countries which people in the community believe are particularly important for us to consider in future rounds of the study. so with that i will move on and i will ask our moderator and our panelists to come up we will have what i am sure will be a very interesting

discussion on financial inclusion. so thank you very much for your ime. thank you, john. it's -- looking at a very long and skinny room here there and already seeing one it's -- looking at a very long and skinny room here there and already seeing one of my challenges today which is going to be spotting you guys in the back because we are going to insist you participate in this. i'm going to take the classroom pproach. i'm the world trade editor of the financial times.

i cover the international end of economics here from washington editor of the financial times. i cover the international end of economics here from washington. get very interested in development and things like financial inclusion. it's something i've been learning a lot about. since i moved here in january. very happy to be up here moderating this discussion. also, as i learned over the last few days as i was getting in touch with these people i'm the stranger on these stage. these are all friends and colleagues. they all know each other from the world of financial inclusion. i'm the one unknown component here. i feel like the stranger invited to the thanksgiving for the family here. i will do my best to be provocative as a result. let me just quickly run through our panel and then u move on to our discussion and get out of the way and really let these people who are some of the leading experts on the subject

share their knowledge and their thoughts on the back of this very good new report. on my all the way left. the lead economist at the development research group at the world bank, also the keeper of something called the global fin desm report which is -- has everything and anything you ever want to know about financial inclusion. the he data that brookings report is based on. if you go visit her she will give you the little data book on financial inclusion which has just about every statistic you ever want to know about financial inclusion in the world. next to her is jerry. jerry is a senior advocacy and regulatory specialist on mobile money at gsma.

next to him karen miller whose chief knowledge and communicationles officer for women's world banking. very well placed to talk about that gender gap that john mentioned. tina next to her is a overnment relations specialist better than cash alliance which is a u.n.-based alliance. and was up early this morning grabbing the train down from new york. and next to me is loretta who is the senior policy adviser for financial inclusion at the u.s. treasury and can tell us a little bit about why the u.s. treasury cares about all this. i thought we would start with the 30,000 foot view on what's happening in the world of financial inclusion and which is a -- some astonishing things have been

happening in recent years. something like 700 million people gained bank accounts. but then there's also some challenges. so why don't you give us that broad view. >> thank you. and thank you for a nice presentation of the report. so what is the landscape? the landscape today is we find in 2014 about 62% of adults around the world have an account either at a bank or financial institutions or the mobile money provider. that's an increase of 700 million adults since 2011. globely only about 2% have an account at the money provider. however, the number is 12% in subsaharan africa where 45% of the adults this is the only accounts they have. we have five african countries including tanzania kenya

ueganda where more people have an account with the mobile money provider than the traditional bank. but it's -- coverage is not only important for mobile money accounts but also permits the growth of agent banking. the xample, in china government moved to rolling out digital payment for government payments and they set up over half a million mom and pop shops now operate as bank agents to distribute the money and take deposits and provide additional the services. moved banking so the new technology is driving mobile money accounts, driving bank agents, car based caubts. in 2017 we'll probably be asking questioned about products we haven't yet dreamed up. but why does this matter? yesterday i logged on to the computer set up an auto bill pay for my kids' school fees this year and it was convenient but for the tens of millions

adults around the world game ally women this is changer. in bangladesh i've been working with factories helping them automate their payments and these women tell us how on payday their mother in-law waits for them to take away their full paycheck and now they can't. they can't keep track of their overtime so they're saving every month for bangladesh i've with factories helping them automate their payments and these women tell generally expenses for their children. it's offering privacy and control especially wage payments. it's safer. so for example a study fund in the u.s. found that after the u.s. digitized began making electronic payments instead of checks crimes fell in the midwest. it also is critical for women's empowerment. the study's field experiments in kenya and elsewhere are

showing that giving women an account to keep her savings gives her influence over servic. so the household budget decisions. she is able to discuss budget decisions with her husband. spending on nut rishes food. we also can encourage savings the same way that i have through auto deposits. think about 401(k) plans which digital payments allow money to be taken off the top. it takes away the need to wait in line and takes away the literal step to deposit. temptation ve the to spend the money. the money is taken off the top. we offered up -- ghana was one of the first countries to commit to digitizing their payments. almost all report putting their wages into an account and we offer an opt-out savings, 10% of salary.

now 18 months later we're seeing the money comes from a savings, drop in gifts to family and friends, which is often involuntary. and drops in hair product consumption. nally allows people to build credit histories. one of the most exciting is the development of credit scores based on payment history the same way the past ten years banks and other lenders have been showing if you receive remittance payment every month or wage payments certainly shows in the future you're able to make that pay back a loan payment. so increasingly now tens of millions of new people by digitizing their wage payments, their remittance payments, suddenly they have a payment history in kenya and elsewhere the data is being used especially by small business owners to allow them to get appropriate credit. however, certainly we need to

highlight that there are challenges in digitization. there's challenges for basic level of id's. in many countries in bangladesh we're dealing with the fact that especially women don't have any form of identification which is a necessary step to simply open an account. it's an interesting aside the employer records counts as identification for a small account at the bank or another financial institution. but we can't get the mobile accounts because to buy a card requires documentation. and that's what they don't have. e certainly have accounts becae infrastructure as my colleagues will talk about. also basic education making sure people understand their pin numbers and to keep them private. in south africa, tragically the number of women would give their pin numbers to strangers to withdraw the money for them

because they didn't feel infrastructure as my comfortable using this machine themselves. so i will end with a new favorite story. a colleague in zambia in a rural village was talking to a school teacher paid every month by the government in cash. for the first two days of every month she closes the school in the village so she can travel to collect her money. she was complaining to us about the danger the security risk of walking around traveling with a wad of cash. but by digitizing her wage payments the schools would be open an extra two days a month. so the financial inclusion is a means towards an end allows people to have a safe place to can other oney but effects. >> there's reason number one why we need more financial inclusion. more school for school kids. this is on the agenda at the ca

u.s. treasury. tell us a little more about why it's for you at the treasury. >> thank you for having me here. i was asked to come and talk about why does treasury care about this and what are we doing about it. i'm pleased to say that this is very definitely a high priority for treasury not just because financial inclusion is a good thing in its own right at an individual or household level but numerous studies have shown that there are broad economic growth and stability issues related to financial inclusion. d the evidence for this is growing by the day. and also financial exclusion presents a problem for a lot of individuals in countries in f fulfilling their own full economic and social potential. i would also add that besides the economic implications of inclusion that financial inclusion is also a high

priority in conjunction with another of treasury's high priorities which is safeguarding the global financial system from abuse. when people are having to operate in the informal sector they are not able to be counted for in any kind of safeguard or anything like that, traceability, when it comes to money laundering and terrorist financing. and this is a huge problem for policy makers all over the world. so treasury is very keen to see everyone involved in some sort of formal financial service. and when i say safeguard or anything like that mean we want to force everyone into a big fancy bank account. but if there are services that are meeting the needs of individuals, especially low income individuals in developing countries and they aren't formal, we don't ban them we formalize them so they are protected. the other aspect of this being

a priority at treasury is the fact that we are very much advocating technology enabled financial inclusion which is a today.t of this report new technologies are rapidly changing the face of financial services everywhere enabling service fro viders not only to reach into remote areas and get up to scale much faster but also allows service today. new technologies are come up wi responsive innovative services that actually meet the needs of individual consumers. and of course as providers to i mentioned before the digitization of all these services means that these services and transactions are traceable and accountable, not just for anti-money laundering consumer ut for

protection. so where did you treasury fit in with this whole agenda? from an international perspective we're very heavily involved at the global policy with the her it's g-20's global partnership for financial inclusion where we're working very closely with all of their subgroups particularly on markets and payment systems, technology enabled solutions customer protection with the re and the role of global standard setting bodies we work closely with our friends on a number of these issues to make sure that they are taking into account the particular needs of low income financial excluded individuals. heavy involved, treasury has an office of technical assistance that works closely with a number of their ounter parts around the world. from a regulatory perspective.

and so the good news is that the importance of financial inclusion and the importance of financial digital inclusion are broadly accepted around the world. which we can't sniff aff. this has really been quite a phenomena. those of us that have been worblinging in this field were arguing just a few years ago and now everyone agrees. the challenge of everyone agreeing was the environment is changing and they're saying we need help. how do we do this? you're right but how do we do it? so there is a growing need for assistance in the emerging markets in a number of areas. and some of the key ones i will mention are supervision of digital financial service providers whether they be banks or nonbanks. the traditional supervisor and

regulator out there is typically been working with banks only, with sound regulations et cetera now we've got all these new players who are digital players and they are playing an increasing role where we need to come up with new rules and ways of operating with these different kinds of players. currencies. bit coin is getting all the press these days but the whole ssue of digital currencies and sovereign digital currencies is just going to keep growing and supervisors need help in figuring out how to do this. nacting a risk-based approach. the financial action task force has stressed that they expect countries to meet their needs in terms of ant money laundering but they were allowed to do so in a risk based approach.

so a lot of countrys they say yes but how do we do that. so there's increasing conversation. consumer protection is another rea. you don't use an ombudsman for digital transaction. the horse has left the barn by that point. things like you don't use digital identity programs is critical and countries around the world are focused on this. most of us take for granted that our bank accounts are insured. you've got all these new players keeping their funds in trust accounts that are doing all sorts of phenomenal things and expanding the world. ut there might not necessarily be deposit insurance for those

accounts. so more regulators are thinking they've got to figure this out. and even fdic is looking at this for the world of prepaid cards in the u.s. and then of course digitization of government payments which play as rouge role >> huge role. as i said there's a lot of enthusiasm which is great to see a lot of acknowledgment. and growing commitments. but now those need to be followed up with action. and that is a great aspect of this report that comes out is being able to measure how well some of these countries have done and how they've done compared to each other and what other areas that we and the rest of this community can support them. >> she's teed you off beautifully here. if now is the time for action then surely you are the action

man. you are one of the people government ks pick up and call when they need help on this one. talk a little bit about what you're hearing from governments and tell us a little bit more about the better than cash alliance and what you guys do. >> thank you. me start by congratulating you. this is a really useful tool because very often when we speak to government officials they want to know how others are doing. so this is very useful tool. so congratulations. maybe a word about cash alliance. a partnership of government companies international organizations donors that are all committed from the shift .rom cash to digital payments what we see with our work is that there's a surge as loretta

just mentioned as interest from government officials in issues from digital financial services and the benefits that government can reap out of that. very often when we speak to governments it off comes from one aspect. with how ments deal to with how to design the best digitization scheme they realize there are more benefits. so there could be a digitization of payment scheme that could deliver security but also transparency and also the issue of financial inclusion. ne of the things many struggle that's where they're interested in learning from other governments or in getting some good results from this report is to understand how to make he most out of those programs. and many of them speak to us about their issue of eliminating ghost salaries or ghost recipients for cash

transfer programs and other. what we are trying to do as an alliance that brings together government and companies and international organizations is to help or support governments with the issue of developing digital inclusion. i know it's a little bit of a mouthful so i would explain what do we mean by that. in order for digitization scheme or expanding financial services for everyone in the economy meaning people, governments, local organizations, all of those need to be able to receive and make payments. it's not enough for governments to make you digital transfer instead of a cash transfer but the ideal would be for you or company to be able to use that account further on to make and receive payments. so what we see and that's a clear request for governments is they're looking for a convening authority that will support them in having collaborative approach where

government companies international organizations donors in a certain country work together to develop these digital payments where everyone can make and receive payments. and that will ultimately deliver what we're all trying to do and to achieve, which is the financial inclusion for all. we were discussing right before you asked me if i thought about an interesting example. i immediately thought about india a place where we see all of this happening and there are many people working on this right now. a year ago we've seen the governor launching a financial scheme and only opened 170 million accounts. but the interesting example of india is that the government is go beyond opening

accounts and making sure those accounts are used so they don't remain dormant accounts or where they actually become active and so they have accompanied it with pension scheme and transferring cash transfers into those accounts and making sure those individuals or house holds starts using them to make and receive payments and that's where people are go beyond open accounts and making sure those accounts are used so they don't remain dormant accounts or where they actually become active and so they have accompanied it with pension scheme and transferring cash transfers into those accounts and making sure those individuals or house holds starts using them to make and receive payments and that's where people are included and they only have an account on paper. we should come back

talk to us about why that gender gap exists and why it is that those efforts to address t aren't always working. it doesn't require a major overhaul to what they're doing. it just requires some tweaks and it just requires frankly understanding what women want. there are very few industries i don't think that we would look at that are targeting women that wouldn't actually go and understand what women's needs

are so that they can develop a product to serve women's needs. and specifically when we think digital financial services. when we think about what are women's needs, how do we address them, i would say that savings is such a critical mponent of this and we recently did some work. what was happening out there what good examples there were and how we could reach scale. and when you think about savings and you think about what women need, they want convenience. they have such busy lives between being the manager of the household and working. they don't have time. and we've heard this over and over again in the last 35 years of doing research on women's lives that they don't have time

to go stand in line at a bank branch to deposit their money or they're so far away from a bank branch that the money it ould take to take a bus to at bank branch

to help with financial inclusion. one of the things that john had said at the beginning is it looks -- the models look different. so when you think about differental savings. one of my favorite expressions now that just came about in the last two weeks our team was in mall owie and they said that savings and agent banking go together like fema and relish now probably the equivalent of peanut butter and jelly. so populations are starting to recognize what delivering a bank product to a woman is going to do for her. so we are absolutely excited about the opportunities that

digital financial services has for women but fundamentally we need to start with the understanding of women's needs and we need to be having gender data so that you can actually measure what is happening with your women clinalts in the research that we did on digital savings and looking at the landscape so few companies were actually disaggregating their data by gender so how could they tell whether they were actually serving a client base appropriately? so -- which leaves you with the message start with understanding women. you'll find that product design comes into play so it will be a well designed product. that will help men also. so one of the great things we if you design a

for women men will like it also. if you don't take into account women's needs they're not going to pick it up. for women men wi it also. if you don't take into account women's needs they're not going sounds like a rule for life. from the industry sector, you are the guy who puts the mobile in mobile money. i'm struck again in the discussions >> that rule for life. from the industry sector, you are the guy who puts the mobile in mobile money. i'm struck again in the discussions that we had a couple of days ago about this that there are still some pretty serious regulatory barriers and some challenges in rms of rolling this out in countries. and countries. and i'm also struck by the scale of the challenge and the reality is one in four one in three-and-a-half of the world's population still doesn't have a bank account or access to financial services. so just walk through from the telecommunications industry what are the kind of challenges that you see still?

>> thanks. one of the benefits of being the last person on the panel to speak is i get to listen to all the insights and then get to comment on them. so thank you for giving me that opportunity as well. turning to the report, if you look at the list of the 21 countries one thing that i noticed right away is as they mentioned there's a very diverse set of countries ranging from middle to upper income countries all the way income uite low countries. generally speaking there's a strock correlation between level of economic development and financial inclusion. but what you see in this case is the number one, four, and countries are all low income countries. and the countries around them are much wealthier countries. now, why is that? all three of those countries financial inclusion income is b driven by mobile operator led mobile money schemes.

least in significant part. and i think that's a very important thing to remember. you were talking about the fact that only two percent of the accounts around the world are mobile money based. even in subsay harne africa we're only looking at 12%. so there's huge opportunity to grow and a big part of issue is the regulatory environment. subsaharan africa has seen higher levels of growth of mobile money because more countries there have taken an enabling regulatory approach than in other parts of the world. the truth is that while we often think of subsaharan africa as kind of a monolith yirk low income area there are in the nt differences least in level. achieving high levels of not just adoption of mobile money but actual active usage. in the at the top ten

countries in the world with respect to not just mobile money, we define active usage based on 90 days, a much shorter period than a bank at the top ten ditionally countries year. but in the content of the top ten countries you have lower income countries but then up other middle income countries. year. but in the content of the top ten countries you have lower income countries but then up other middle income countries. money has

developed much more quickly this is no longer just a kenian or east african story, with the developed right enabling environment mobile money can develop in diverse economic and geographic environments around the world. you it important that have an enabling versus nonenabling environment? we track all the countries around the world which have at least one active mobile money service. that can be a bank let service or can be led by some form of a third party entity that is neither a bank nor mobile operator. today just over half of the countries that do offer mobile money products have what we consider to be an enabling regulatory environment where there's a level playing field, where banks and mobile operators and other third parties can all directly offer mobile money services. it's one where the services can be provided through a broad agent network where customers

can be registered, can cash in and cash out. it's an environment where there's a recognition that while you do need pru dential regulations in place to safeguard customer funds and ensure the protection of customers generally you differentiate between mobile money and banking because the funds are not being intermediated in the same way. it's an environment which interoperability while very important is not mandated at an inappropriate time or using a model not commercially viable. so around the world not just in subsaharan africa or in successful markets but if you look at all the countries and all the countries with a nonenabling regulatory environment active customer usage, 90 days, is over three times higher in environment that is we consider to be enabling versus nonenabling. in the top ten countries, all

countries which have an enabling regulatory approach. and in all those countries mobile operators are leading and driving financial inclusion with respect to mobile money. that's a very important point. but i don't want this to become banks versus mno's types of scenarios. you hear this a lot. sometimes they don't want to get involved. and personally i think this is completely the wrong idea and the wrong approach. the potential for digital financial services and for mobile financial services is huge. the pie is very big and is just starting to get opened up. if banks and mno's see and seize these that's a very important point. but i don't want this to become banks versus mno's types of opp there's potential to really dramatically grow that pie and to target a huge unbanked and underserved market that is not currently viable. it's not viable for traditional

banking institutions. mobile operators have the infrastructure and they can build the mobile money infrastructure. these are the rails. this is the way to bring people out of the informal sector where they're saving money in their homes under their mattresses perhaps investing in livestock other ways that people who don't have access or don't have access that works to form financial institutions, into the ing them formal financial sector. once that money is in the formal financial sector first from a macro economic perspective it can be intermediated. into the formal beyond that there are a number of other major benefits because now banks have the opportunity to provide credit. they have the opportunity to provide savings. and the banks are offering these services. insurance services have the opportunity to offer these as well. looking at one example from kenya many are familiar with the service, a tie-up between

services offered a banking service, a deposit and credit service by the commercial bank of africa. not focused on having having lots of small accounts. once they set up the service ey went from 89,000 to 897,000 loan accounts in one year and deposits from the service in one year reached 24 billion kenyan shillings. st of this money is coming from under the mattresses and is coming into the formal financial sector. kenya also set up providing loans of up to 10,000 u.s. delargs. insurance market as well you're policies that on

have been issued by services with over 1 million customers. so i really believe we shouldn't focus on banks versus mobile operators but the opportunity to help facilitate real and full financial inclusion. >> great. mnos. mobile network operators. not multilateral organizations. i just want to come back to something, india as a kind of interesting case study. i'll delow it back to you and ask, ok, india comes up in a report as a country doing interesting stuff. when you look out there who which are the countries that kind of leading the way now in financial inclusion? and you're not allowed to say kenya. policies that have been issued by services

with brazil, for example. i think going back to sort of the story of it's sort of the chicken and the egg and building for example. i think going back to sort of the story of it's sort of the chicken and the egg and building a financial infrastructure. look at latin america from 2011 we've seen double digit growth and across the region really anchored by brazil and mexico. again i don't have evidence on is just perception enormously high

has to close his rates of digital wage payments and government transfer payments. f days to make these payments. so benefiting the employers and benefiting the government. so you have all these new sectors nd financial responding by creating this point of sale infrastructure. just to get india, the index is as well we find the highest dormsy rates in the world. i would say this is really an opportunity. these are brand new accounts. we met women who had their first accounts. india is llenge for to step up and create a purpose by continuing to digitize government payments by the private sector. by making it easier for people

to make their money in an account by developing. wunch interesting thing with india also that the adults who have debit card is very, very low. and again making these accounts more convenient for people to use and keep their money there by encouraging debit cards and points of sale. >> just to add to the india story. something they've made a huge public government commitment to this. i'm sure you could argue that there's a degree of top down mandate activity going on there which always has mixed success in the marketplace. but to their credit india has also acknowledged that not a bank account. they have recently licensed 11 new players who are they are calling payment banks which could be mobile operators or other types of nonbank service providers.

so those 11 i think licensed just in the last week or so. so india deserves a lot of praise for acknowledging that customer choice is just as important as access to a bank account. nd yes, totally agree with the comment about not just government payments but also the ability to have other places to use your account to use your card the whole merchant acceptance side of things. this is one area where my colleagues are doing a great deal of work with indian agencies on putting together an extensive digital merchant acceptance network for just this purpose. >> do you want to just talk about the example how it looks from the mobile perspective? >> sure. in my prior life before i joined the gsma i worked on regulations looking at branchless banking, electronic

money, whatever you want to call them. different laws and regulations related to financial inclusion. and india you've seen over time they have continually loosened up their approach but it's been a very, very slow progression. so in 2006 i believe india initially released their regulations on what they called business correspondents which were essentially banking agents. when they first released them they were very strict. i believe they limited them to nonprofits and maybe a couple other actors. most were not permitted to provide services, extremely limited. then a year or so later they said we'll let certain companies offer these services. couple of years later then they said we'll let different shops in the community doing this. so slowly over time they started opening it. but it was always limited to banks. then they came up with some

form of payment provider couple similar to a mobile money provider but had very strict limits on the types of services, the values that could be transmitted through the service. i believe there was even a prohibition on cashing out. so it didn't have the full functionality. they've come to the recognition over time that these efforts needed to be widend even more. so now they've come one the payments banks which have a lot ore functionality. similar to e and they called them payments anks and so you may thinks so you see them move to an approach but five or six of them have mobile operators

leading or very active involved. so there's a lot of promise going forward to help contribute to that. >> correct me if i'm wrong. india now counts for one in five of the world's unbanked? it's happening. and they have 900 million cell well. in circulation as and according to the little data book on financial inclusion just 2.5% of the population now has a mobile account. which is well. and pretty astonishingly low. do you want to come back on india? >> i just want to mention one comment which is the issue of time. what we're seeing is this one year old and progress has been made including now with the cooking oil gas subsidies into those accounts has already achieved over $2 billion savings for the government and i'm sure we're

going to see more and more as the government sees that they are making their operations more efficient. but also the issue down the are there are people who managing their financial lives. and i remember myself visiting a small corner shop in india this was an eastern african country and walking to the store this woman who had actually an account. she walked into the store, she asked the person who was also out some money and then she cashed out and

i think it's a little premature to judge after one year the scales when we're talking about india are mind boggling. the biggest financial scheme, the biggest id. e're talking about the biggest -- the scale is so big it's going to take a while to see he they might intermediate funds the way results. >> opening it up to the floor shortly. but i have one last question from the podium here that i'm going to reserve results. the p to ask first. so if you can get ready we do have some microphones that will come through the room. i want to go back to something said at the very beginning. in 20 2017 you will be considering products you don't even know about right now. so i want you to think about the future and the cool new thing. is it going to be bit coin?

is it going to be some kind of other sovereign digital currency that we're going to be talking about? as you think about financial inclusion what are the cool new things that you think about? loretta we'll put you on the spot. the future of financial inclusion. what excites you? >> oh, geez. i department prepare for that one. well, without a doubt the growing movement of towards some sort of mobile device and the moving away from the branch-based activity is enormous. and just the growth of smart phones low cost smart phones across the developing world is phenomenal. five years ago we would never have anticipated the number of phones in the developing

countries right now and the numbers are just growing amazingly so. and yes the issue of digital currencies is definitely going to grow but i don't think bit coin is going to be the answer. i think there are going to be other areas. i think central banks are going to start looking at how to issue their own digital currencies. so instead of minting a bunch of quarters they're minting digital equivalence of those. so i think those are some of i think we're definitely going to be seeing. we're already seeing any number of applications out there on financial education, managing your money et cetera. and like many things these are into low cost er

low income regions and we'll find the same thing in other places. so it's very hard to anticipate the future because into low cos low income things are coming up every day. >> at this point i owe you an apology i promised i wouldn't ambush you on stage. since you brought it up, what are the great -- i also say this mindful of the fact sitting behind us over our heads is the center for technology innovation that we're talking about. >> i agree. i was scared i was willing left. i was piloting the slum in cal cuta. keeping the smart phones was absolutely mind boggling. the question is it will blur mobile money accounts from bank accounts because people i surveyed in india saying i use my smart phone to make bank transactions. so they're harnessing the power of mobile accounts through bank

accounts. so that distinction even exist. as i think an exciting growth in the use of digital payments provide basic services. the growth of the prepaid electricity minutes, so basically other infrastructure providers will invest because people will prepay on their phone. the increase of payments of sanitation in kenya. we were visiting one of these toilets that you basically make a small payment in your phone to be open to keep it clean and safe. something like 40,000 of them ave been built in the past year. so the ability of greater -- the ability of the growth of financial inclusion to enable the provision of greater basic services for people. >> mobile sanitation. i'm glad you explained that. jerry. be as sexy ay not

as talking about bit coin but i think the move towards real full financial inclusion from what has traditionally been more person to person payments air time about bit coin but i think the move towards real full financial inclusion from what has traditionally been more person to person payments air time and the types of services that year. so the mobile money really kind of started out as to moving into what karen was talking about providing real dinthal savings. we have an example where tanzania decided to take all of their interest in trust funds and pay it out to all their users. small customers, their agents, any user that had money in their system. all of a sudden people who never could afford to have a bank account and earn savings were suddenly getting interest. a small amount sure but getting something. and if nothing hells that helps with respect to -- else that helps with respect to inflation. moving from some short term small emergency loan products to things more like microfinance, small and medium enterprise access to financial services, insurance.

there's a long way to go where these different products. i think cross border we're seeing a lot of international remittance products not just from wealthier countries to low income countries but we're now seeing with mobile money a lot f connections particularly with subsaharan africa where you're seeing different countries in east and west africa interconnecting services with the same provider or different to be able to provide access in a region of the world where borders are kind of arbitrary and people have been traveling and working and many, across borders for many years long before mobile money came along. so i think those are the exciting things for me. >> i want to come back to loretta because she has one ore point and i owe you one. >> i did want to make the point partly following up that when we talk about financial inclusion, the royal we tend to

think about just the regulator the financial regulator or maybe the industry. but the reality is that certainly from a policy perspective in fostering the growth of this industry and furtherering financial many, many years long inclusion involves multiple levels of government and i volvement and we can't forget that. so a government might make a commitment to financial inclusion but if it's only the financial regulator they aren't the ones who are responsible for customer id's in that country. there are multiple agencies that come up with customer id's. there needs to be broad coordination between all those players. let's not forget that in many countries in the middle east and north africa other government departments have guardianship laws that prevent women from opening up their own bank account without the permission of a male relative. so if we don't deal with those

folks then all these other great initiatives are not going to get anywhere. and then of course to the point about all the different ways that these services can be used for education, energy, all sorts of things. so we mustn't forget that this is not just about talking to the finance guy. it cuts across all areas of a country's policy making environment. >> that's a really interesting point. that need for coordination. when you get the kind of central banks talking to the finance ministry talking to the communication ministries talking to anyone who has worked in the developing world knows that coordination is not always easy. i cut you off. i'm sorry. >> you didn't cut me off. that's ok. i think what's really exciting for us is what technology is going to allow in order to

deliver for what women need at each stage of their life. so i think there's a real opportunity for multiproduct offerings that are delivered through digital platforms that we've talked about savings, talked about credit products, talk about insurance. and that could be health insurance products, that could be agricultural insurance products. all of those that can be zhrivered for a woman to address her needs for security, and confidentiality we have the opportunity now and so it's a matter of investment by the financial institutions and m and o's to think through this. it's the donor community saying ok security, and confidentiality if we're going investing in certain projects they need to take into account the needs of women and of course it is the regulatory community and we use the word

game changer before in terms of digital but i would argue that the regulators have a game changing role right now and if they think about what is best for their entire population, there is going to be huge improvement in economic empowerment of all of the silingts sentence and their countries. >> we'll close with you before we go to the floor here. what was the cool new financial inclusion product you were thinking about at 6:00 a.m. at pen station this morning? >> i cannot predict what will be the next big financial inclusion innovation but i can predict where that's going to come from, one of the countries that were surveyed in this report. one of the important parts of our work is facilitating knowledge exchange between governments and when they come to us and ask us what others are doing they're not asking us

to know what is the u.s. or germany doing. they want to know what other country that is are brazil, china, i think that's where the big next innovation will come from because this is where innovation is now happening of all technology is now erupting and responding to needs that have been there for a while. and suddenly there is this surge on the one hand of new of innovation but also government leadership that is trying to facilitate that happening. the incredible spirit of entrepreneurship that i'm sure all of my fellow panelists see and meet when we visit those countries, i'm sure that's where it's going to happen. >> great. let's open it toupt floor. put your hands up if i can ask you to kind of limit it to questions to be snappy and quick and to the point. and also to let me know which

member of the panel you would like to direct it to. and of course to introduce yourself. we'll take these questions and kind of groups of three and then come back to the panel for responses. why don't we -- we've got a big luster here in the front here. you're talking about it seems to me the mobile technology and the rails. and i am wondering to what you are also working

with governments or conceptualizing the notion of digital identification as an integral component of the digital financial working with governments or conceptualizing the notion of digital identification as an integral component of the digital financial sector. and when you talk about india, for instance, it's my understanding that the biometric identification system was a crucial component of the financial inclusion efforts across the different governments that have come into place that this isn't just a new financial inclusion initiative that in fact it was revived in part because of the new emphasis on financial inclusion. talking about payment histories for instance, in point of fact those are digital identity points that can be used as in part identifiers to an identity.

i'm a little concerned about to what degree they're stove piping in a separation of the issue of digital identity and know your customer. loretta very articulately expressed the view that was an integral component. i'm wondering if that's a broad understanding. >> ok. digital identity which is a uestion in the news. >> i listened carefully and i thought it was great. i think we have to return to the report a little. and the notion that i want to return to is the notion of inclusion access and use.

we haven't heard much at the panel level about how can we improve use because even though we say that 30% or 32% of people use a mobile product or mobile account once in three months it means that a lot of people don't. and we've registered them. so the question for me is what would you contribute to the sort of improvement in use that we need as relates to the india example it relates all over. we haven't heard much of the actually the customer. except karen came in with specific customer group. and we also haven't heard much of the people should implement this the financial service providers. if we can get a few remarks from the whole panel or one person on that. thanks. > behind you there were --

>> we could predict i'm going to ask about consumer protection. so i would like -- when i look at the report i see that several of the countries that score very well actually are very poor in consumer protection. so just to comment on what needs to happen. what do you see that is happening and what needs to happen in that area? >> ok. we'll start with the question of digital identities. >> i'm not an expert in this issue. there's an alliance that we don't press scribe digital services solutions.

what we have seen is working with all the governments members of the alliance and others that are working with us more broadly is services there different solutions that work with different conference or different infrastructure. so in some cases that's what works. in other cases there are other solutions. you mentioned that i spoke about mobile financial services. there's definitely a -- there's also other solutions working very well in other contexts and other countries. so definitely there's the issues that i'm sure loretta can address better. but it doesn't have to be limited to necessarily mobile solutions out there. >> you want to jump in on this. i'm struck by one of the thing up in the initial discussion was talking about the regulatory barriers to getting the need for an id to get a sim card in some countries and that is a barrier to financial inclusion. for you jerry this question of identity and digital identity.

how do up in the initial you th? >> thanks. i think it's a real challenge. and the issue of kyc in general which is probably the best thing to talk about is a real challenge because you have a balancing act and loretta talked about it earlier in terms of a risk-based approach. and i want to emphasize that back in 2012 they changed from recommending or allowing a risk based approach to mandating a risk based approach. not only is it something you should do. it's something you must do. you have to look at the different risks within your country within the financial sector different types of providers different types of products. and you need to develop a risk based approach. you y doing that can dedicate different levels of esources to different types of

risks based on the actual risks present there. so the question is how do you develop a risk-based and proportional framework so that you mitigate the major risks while also not risks based on the actual unint preventings low income people who want to use basic accounts from accessing the form of financial sector. and this gives me a chance for a shameless plug because we just published a new report, a technical paper on proportion al kyc and it addresses this specific issue in the context of how regulators and assessors looking at this issue can try to address and create proportional anti-money laundering and countering the terrorism frame woorks. happy to talk about it more but i think if you have a look at the report i'm happy to discuss it further. one major challenge in a lot of countries -- everyone looks

they think ah hah that's the answer. the reality is that every country has multiple forms of id's already in existence. digitized on data bases, some of them not. oifs speaking with the world bank guy who is going to put out the wdr shortly and i think he mentioned that either 76% or 76 in total i apologize i can't remember already have some form of digital digitized on data bases, some of them not. oifs speaking with id. the problem that you find in a lot of countries is that you have multiple id's that no one has access to. you've got voters, birth municipal school, residency registries. d either these don't provide

electronic access or they just don't provide access to anyone. and so you've got financial service providers that want to be able to use this electronic access or they just for their own purposes but they don't have access. and so that comes back to some of the coordination needed amongst the different levels of government. let's go to this question of how you can improve use. i am struck by the dormancey rates you see in a lot of countries. >> i think we touched on some of the larger ones encouraging payments the recreet of payments and encourage the sending. globally according to the index over half a billion account holders are still paying their school fees in cash. this is simply low hanging fruit that hopefully the marketless reply to. i also think it's sort of another elephant in the corner of use which is encouraging merchant acceptance of payments. it's one thing to say i never thought about it but they say i'm not formalizing anything. i formalize, i have a track

record, the tax authority will be on my door steps tomorrow. mean, the surveys of small merchants, 07% report i do my accounting in my head. so who knows how many different books they have. so this is a tremendous challenge globely. and i think this is also really critical to expanding use. it's somehow breaking figuring out how to encourage merchants who are often relatively accept electronic payments. >> do you want to jump in? >> thanks for asking that question. in response also to what she just said that is the usage through the lens of digital payments. but when we think about onceic payments. >> do you want to jump in? >> thanks for asking again the broader set of financial products whether they're delivered via digital channel or not how do we increase that usage.

and i think one of the elements that we certainly need to look at is what is the corresponding financial education and consumer marketing that goes along with a product. so when it is a savings account how do you encourage behavior and educate. if i put in a certain amount of money every week i am going to be able to sive for my children's school fees or my child's wedding in two years. how do you intzpwrate the education that encourages that sage to drive the behavior and adoption that you want in what is going to be beneficial for the client. so i think we do need to look at the education element. and then also, we certaintly find this when it comes to women, is how a product

actually is marketed. we are working on an insurance product in morocco right now and it was actually a very good well-designed health insurance product and when we went in to do the market research with clients and we started describing the product, everyone's eyes lit up. and they're like that would be amazing if we had a product like that. and we said well you do have a product already just like that. but because the consumer education, the marketing of the product was so complicated and we all know when you're talking about insurance it is very complicated. but basically taking a step back and revising how that product was communicated to clients has increased the claims for that product significantly. so once again sometimes it is just some of those tweaks that

you need to make in order to increase usage. >> do you want to jump in? and also let's pivot a little bit to this question of customer protection. >> sure. so first on how we can improve usage. i think first of all you need to have a product that has the functionality that is really useful to the people who have the product. so if you just focus on getting someone a bank account but it's not an account that they can use, then what type of financial inclusion are we really talking about? if as our panelists have said you have to travel a lng way, if there's monthly fees if there's a low balance people aren't going to want to use that account and it's likely to remain dormant. and functionality is a part of that. all the folks looking at human center design in the type of work that is going on in the digital financial services realm and i think that's an important part of it as well trying to understand what the

users' true needs are and working with the financial service providers to develop products that meet the actual needs of the unbanksed and underserved. turning to consumer protection. i know this is often an issue that is treated from the perspective of regulators only. and i certainly believe that regulators have a very important role to play with respect to consumer protection. but i would like to talk about something the gsma is doing in this space. in november they launched the code of conduct for mobile money providers and it was endorsed by all the major mobile network operator groups. so when you think about the phone air tell, orange, tiagos of the world all of them have endorsed this initiative. the code of conduct itself is a set of eight high level principles of which several of them are specifically focused n protection of consumers.

the first principle focuses on the issue of sache guarding customer funds. the last three issues are all very consumer protection specific focusing on disclosure, transparency with respect to fees in terms and conditions, teaching people how to use financial services safely. pin security as an issue that's very important and i think that's one of the thing that is we're focusing on in the code of conduct. dispute resolution is another issue that we address in the code of conduct and another issue is data privacy. how do we ensure that customers understand how their data are used and how to ensure that mobile money providers get the consent of users before they use their data, their personal information in a particular way. so this is an industry led and t that compliments doesn't substitute for

initiatives in particular countries but i think it's a very important initiative and it's a very promising sign that all the major groups that are providing mobile money have endored and committed to rotection practices. >> with the advent of new types of players there needs to be a new look at how those players are operating and how their funds are protected et cetera. so the one i mentioned earlier was the issue of deposit insurance for and doesn't digital payments fro viders. and that's one of many areas that regulators to the national level are looking at these issues. and then as jerry said there's the whole aspect of what is the service provider required for in terms of fee transparency, recourse, easy ability to

reverse transaction. and that sort of thing. and these are all areas that the gsma and others are looking at very closely right now in this era of digital transactions that happen immediately. you need a pretty quick recourse. and of course part of that nvolves customer education and how much of that is the responsibility of the service provider versus the individual and the schools et cetera. it's a question that a lot of folks how much of that is the including the center are leading the way and looking at but there's no clear cut this is the new answer and that's it. evolve as s going to technology evolves. >> including let's go back to t. i promised you a question there . we'll go to your neighbor. and then again way at the back of the room. i promised i would call on them later. >> thank you so much for coming and speaking about financial inclusion. a very educative talk. my question, i have two

questions and i will begin with a comment. this outlook reminds me of the microfinancing microloan talks that happened several years ago. very similar outlooks. a lot of people very excited. a lot of finances going into things like that because of the opportunities such of a big of a pie as you were saying that is available. my first question is how are banks making money out of this is if there are accounts dormant they are still providing that service. what is their own incentive as the private sect tor expand to this bottom of the pirmid community in developing countries and emerninging markets? the second one is when you have such positive outlooks and a lot of profit to be made usually have offshoots and specially nowadays when you have the opportunity to be more of an entrepreneur you have more technology to kind of create a banking payment and

especially when you go into communities when people trust you and you create all of this they're going to start using your services. so the question with that is to advice would you give policy makers and regulators keeping in mind that this is not necessarily the capacity implementation but what advice would you give them concerning offshoots that could potentially harm communities instead of help them in emerging markets? thank you. >> ok. >> thank you. consultant to the imf and world bank on legal reform and financial services. starting with the 30,000 foot view the biggest problem of development is governance and probably one of the biggest problems is corruption. and most of the developing countries are pretty corrupt. so my question is are any of your organizations doing any work in the scope of digital payments for combating

corruption? it seems when you have indelible legal records and you trace payments that could go a long way. so are any of your institutions focusing on this? tchaunching. >> financial inclusion as a ruppings buster. all the way in the back. we had two questions there. was it just one? just introduce yourself. john nelson. i'm also the chairman of the national visibilities institute. so i specifically want to ask i'm also the chairman of the national visibilities institute. so i specifically want to ask with people with disabilities being included in the data. i don't see any information at all. both the fdic and fin ra have recently released some data about this situation. so i wondered if anybody could speak to it and specifically loretta about domestic activities related to people underbanked or

unbanchingde. >> ok. -- banked. >> ok. we'll come back to you in the next round. hy don't we run through underb. should we start with crippings. dr corruption. >> well, i mean, i suppose he will be the better respondent for this but absolutely with their ability to be traced just completely changes the game for corruption. one of the early projects that i worked on was in afghanistan helping to set up a mobile money payment system for the afghan national police. because they were getting shipped out in cash payments shipped out in cash and of course easily a third to a half of their salaries were ending

up in the pockets of their commanders. and so to suddenly be getting this full amount via their mobile money account was just a complete shock to the soldiers. not to mention their commanders. and that was a bit of a problem. so without a doubt these services go a long way in addressing issues of corruption , also in reducing ghost accounts. whether those be salary ccounts or subsidy accounts. but like everything, yes, these things -- these new technologies go a long way in addressing these problems. fixing the problems or at least providing a means to fix them. but all innovations make their own way. i mean, there are people, border guards in kenya,

demanding their bribes viea pay now. so people will rise to the level of innovation however they can at the moment. that's just the way it is. >> if i can just concur. definitely a lot of governments are interested in digitizing payments to enhance transparency and eliminate ghost salaries or recipients. i think one of the most i want resting benefits not only only sort of at the macro level for a government to see they have been able to save 1 billion or $2 billion by digitizing payments. it's actually enhancing or improving the experience of individuals on a daily basis. if you are arrested or you are cited by a policeman and suddenly you don't have to pay them immediately on the spot but could actually then pay the your fine via digital means to

the government directly, then that reduces the incentive for a police man to ask you for that fine on the spot and put pocket. ir the other issue that we've seen research done by world bank and others is as soon as you receive your payment directly to an account you are not subject to requests for bribes by the person who is managing your cash transfer, the recipient. so there is not a clerk who would say i will give you your the other issue cash transfer if you give me a small percentage because you get it directly to your account and you don't have to negotiate to get what you are -- what you deserve. but also, the government doesn't see complaints any more because the recipient to get wh receive the full amount they are due. >> do you want to just talk inclusion and inclusion of people with disabilities and also this question of kind of the microfinance example.

how do you make sure this helps communities rather than hurts them. >> disability side, i agree it's hugely important and specific work and research we've been doing it's of specific interest. unfortunately, at least with the data the meth oddologist we add on the questions on financial inclusion to this preexisting gallup world pole survey which is relatively short and does not have robust enough questions on disability. we actually tried. one sort of question like are ou able to do the physical activities that people your age should be able to do. but we don't have the data. but i certainly agree that's important topic to explore. in terms of opportunities to make money, i'll sort of bring that question back to the consumer protection questions. something that keeps coming up every time i present the data often the first question is this tremendous concern about

-- my colleagues can talk about -- mobile credit offerings. seeing how people are going to make money off of this. this is certainly one very quick way where people get on their phone even text base offers of credit and they click to get the credit and suddenly they're indebted and certainly people may not understand the credit terms and conditions and ten are very high fees and interests. again this goes back to the general bread and butter. and also i would even take your comment a step further and encourage the authors to in the next rounds to explore in greater detail the consumer protection framework around particularly these new technology and new products. and just make sure, we need both on the regulatory side understanding of who is offering these products and how. and again from the consumer side to make sure that there's transparency and disclosure and appropriate recourse in the case of trouble.

>> do you want to jump in on any of these questions? >> i'll jump in on the microfinance and then how this has evolved and we're starting to work with more and more types of players as we've discussed today. and a perfect example of this is we started work a couple years ago with nigeria, a very large commercial bank. and they wanted -- they weren't interested in serving the 56 million unbanked nigerians and they did have an interest in, mean for oes that women clients? we've never thought about women clients before. but in order for them to invest in that market they required a two-year pay-back period. so that whatever investment was made they could start making money in two years. this is a commercial bank. standard procedure there. and they weren't sure this was going to happen with developing

a savorings product for an enshirly new segment they hadn't worked in before. so women's world banking in some fill an thropic capital from visa and afiona to invest in that research part and some fill an thropic capital from visa and afiona to invest in that research part and early product design which then helped launch the savings product for diamond bank. and what has now happened is now that the product has been out for two years and it is a savings account that is opened up with the mobile phone, there's a field agents that go into the open air markets across nigeria. it takes about a minute to open up the account. and they have now seen through the savings behavior that this is a very viable market segment. so now diamond bank is investing millions of their own dollars in broadening the value proposition for the unbanked

segment in nigeria. so we are working with them on developing credit products for this market now. products. savings outh savings value proposition. so sometimes when we think the the eco system and different players involved to make this work for all parties, we -- the donor community plays this critical role and the commercial bank plays that role. and in the end the client is going to benefit. so i think it's a really exciting opportunity bringing all these different players together. >> the last word. >> sure. just two quick comments on clie? we've never thought about women clients before. but in order for them to invest in that market ombating corruption. one topic we haven't really discussed much today is small holder farmers and small holder agriculture. and before i joined gsma i looked at this topic in the context of digital services in nigeria. nigeria overhauled its one topic we haven't really

discussed much today is small fertilizer subsidy delivery program and digitized it and they found that they were able to get huge increases in the number of farmers who actually received fertilizer because they created a digital system that didn't eliminate corruption but it dramatically reduced the opportunities for corruption. so there are many different sectors beyond just pension payments or salary payments in the small holder financial sector as well there's a real opportunity there. quickly on the issue of quick access to high cost credit i think that that is something that we need to take a look at. it's an issue anywhere in the world in the united states access to payday loans is a very controversial issue and disclosure and transparency over the cost of those loans both over the specific time period and over the entire year if you roll it over, over time. i think the transparency and disclosure are key and i think that these things need to be monitored so that we make sure that the benefits exceed the negative elements of those type

of services. >> thank you. i think we've run out of time. this is a huge and fascinating subject. we could spend the rest of the day discussing it. i'm sure the panelists are going to be here for a few minutes after the panel and if you do have some questions i'm sure they would be open to addressing them. but it's -- thank you for being with us. >> i just want to thank shawn great job of moderating the panel and also our speakers. we really appreciate all the insights you offered. suggestions from the audience consumer protection digital identity and other issues that we need to think about going forward. we certainly appreciate that. anyone else who has suggestions in terms of our future reports what we should be looking at maybe thing thags we might have neglected in the first round feel free to email us. and we look forward to hearing your reactions. so insights you offered.

suggestions from the audience consumer protection digital identity and other issues that we need to think about going forward. we certainly appreciate >> christopher were gave her on thats survey of economists forecast weak economic growth over the next two years. andundtable discussion michael on wall street regulation and the volatility in the stock market. "washington journal" is live on c-span at 7:00 a.m. eastern. workis week on q&a, focusing on international conflicts and nontraditional security threats. she talks about the counter