investigations would definitely find out what drove those people. what drove those people into these decisions. >> i hope it won't be profit. >> thank you, mr. chair. mr. on, these vehicles promised unrivaled fuel economy. i know other members have asked about how volkswagen intends to make consumers whole and i want to lend my voice to that briefly. because consumers purchased a car believing it would be a clean choice, they have every right to feel defrauded. consumers were sold goods that do not exist. i think it is likely that whatever fixes to comply with

>> that's a great question and it can get you the answer now. >> was something done? >> i hope you can provide that to the committee.

i'm certain the record will be open. if i can just confirm some of the information we've received. volkswagen initiated a voluntary recall in december of 2014 that was intended in part to address the issue of excess of noncommission was that correct? >> could you repeat the question? >> volkswagen initiated a voluntary recall in december of 2014? that's correct. you had volkswagen propose the recall. >> the technical engineering department in concert with the committee worldwide. >> what explanation was given to consumer about why that to december 2014 recall was necessary? >> i would have to look into the document on how -- what we wrote to those consumers. i don't know. >> you will provide that to the committee please? >> definitely.

it's public. >> what explanation was given to regulator about why that december 2014 recall was necessary? what fix do the volkswagen implement for cars under that recall? >> all have been software fixes. new software versions have been flushed into the specific steering. >> who at volkswagen developed that fix? >> the engine and draft development software after treatment department in germany. >> did they know at the time that it would not work? >> i don't know that. my understanding was that it would work and otherwise to work. but product safety would have this version for application in the market. >> well, i thank you for your

responses. i look forward to the additional information you owe. again, i would say on behalf of the consumer of the 20th congressional district of new york, around the world impacted by this. deserve a sound explanation and a fix that will respond to the environmental damage and consumer fraud. >> thank you. >> as one final question real quick. >> first mr. chairman, i ask unanimous consent to put mr. welch's document into the record. i have one last question mr. horn. you told a bunch of us on this committee, after that west virginia university study in may of 2014, everybody was running around trying to figure out what was going on with these cars and why there was a discrepancy

between the cast that your engineers didn't know the answer. in fact, the discrepancy was because of a willful act of some engineers germany in the first place. correct? >> that's my understanding. >> those people -- that information about that discrepancy never made it to germany so they can tell your people what was wrong? is that what you're deafing here to-- testifying here today? >> i don't understand. >> you said your people were trying to figure out why there was a discrepancy. there were some people who knew. those are the people who wrote that code in the first place. are you telling me that they never told your u.s. people what the problem was and why there was a discrepancy? >> people who investigated the study in detail, the study and developed software fixes were also the colleagues in germany. of course they were informing their u.s. colleagues. >> did they tell the u.s. colleagues that there was

deceptive code and that was laughs causing the discrepancy? >> i don't think so. >> thank you. >> mr. horn, that concludes our questioning for now. this hearing is not over. we would appreciate more questions will be coming from committee members. we would appreciate a quick and honest response. this hearing is going to adjourn for a couple of hours while the republican conference meeting. we'll con reconvene in about 15 minutes. >> thank you.

>> we reconvene this hearing on volkswagen cheating allegations and initial questions. we have mr. brooks here as witnesses. let me go into this. you're aware that the committee is holding an investigative hearing. has the practice of taking testimony under oath. do you have any objectionst to testifying under oath. the chair advise you, you're entitled to be advised by counsel during your testimony today. both witnesses indicate no. could you please rise and raise your right hand and i will swear you in. do you swear that the testimony you about to give is the truth whole truth and nothing but the truth. thank you. both witnesses have been indicated that you are now under

oath. we'll now allow you to each give a five minute summary of your opening statement. >> other members of the subcommittee. we appreciate the opportunity to testify on the matter of the environmental protection agency. i'm chris grundler. i'm joined today by my colleague phil brooks director of the office of civil enforcement division. epa civil enforcement program and develop and prosecutor civil administrative and judicial cases. epa sent a no,it's of violation -- notice of violation of clean air act of volkswagen.

alleging that volkswagen audi diesel cars for model years 2009 to 2015 include software that circumvent epa's emission standards. volkswagen manufactured and installed software in the electronic control module of these vehicles. when the vehicle is being tested for compliance. put simply, these cars contain software that turns off or significantly run -- reduces the effectiveness of emission controls when driving normally. this is known as a defeat device. this design feature is in the cars emitting up to 40 times the emission that allows to ensure that public health is protected. these devices contains a switch. including the position of the steering wheel, the vehicle speed, the duration of the engine's operation and pressure.

all new cars sold in the united states must have an epa issued certificate of conformity demonstrating that the car meets federal emission standards. by making and selling vehicles with advices that allows for higher level of emissions vw violating multiple important clean air act. these violations are very serious. not only because the device resultses in excess emissions but also because after the high emissions were discovered, vw concealed the facts from epa, the state of california and from consumers. these vehicles are emitting more oxide. we know exposure has been linked with a range of serious health effects.

includwe're in the midst of an ongoing action with vw's action. however, at this point, we're unable to provide further details investigation because of the release of such information could jeopardize as enforcement investigation. epa will continue to work closely with the california air resources board during the investigation. our agencies work very closely together on the implementation and the oversight of the vehicle emissions program. we intend to assess the scope of vw's liability under the clean air act. we also intend to assess the economic benefit to vw with noncompliant and pursue appropriate penalties as well as assess the excess pollution from vw's violation.

we are acutely aware of the impact of these violations on consumers. we have provided frequentedly asked questions and answers to our consumers on our website. on september 25th, my office sent a letter to all auto manufactures letting them know that we are stepping up our activities. over the 40 plus year history of our program, we have updated and adapted our approach to compliance, oversight and technology have changed. it is this oversight that ensures the benefit of clean air emissions standards are realized. thank you for the opportunity to appear as witnesses this morning. we welcome your questions.

>> mr. brooks, you don't have a statement. you issued a joint statement? okay, thank you. now i'm going to recognize myself for five minutes. when you speak make sure you turn the mic on. in december of 2014, vw conducted a voluntary recall to duress -- what information did vw convey to you about the cause and the proposed solution to higher emission in advance of that recall >> throughout the 2014, once california and epa learned of emissions, there were technical conversations between the california air resources board and volkswagen. california took the lead on exploring what the problem was with these vehicles. my understanding they received multiple different stories

plausible reasons why these vehicles may not be performing as they supposed to. chemical based reasons, physical based reasons. what the remedy that was proposed was described to fix a problem with the vehicle concerning how it's operated under different temperatures. what kind of dosing sensors were used to make the emission control system work properly. at the time they were told by the state of california to proceed. but that california was going to test these vehicles to make sure that the fix was effective. it was not effect based on the testing by california and resources board. >> did you conduct any further evaluations and conclusions and proposed solutions to advance the recall. what process did you have in

interacting with them. >> epa and california have a very strong partnership when it comes to oversight and compliance. sometimes california takes the lead on these matters. sometimes epa takes the lead ones matters. for example, last year, we had to lead with respect to the hyundai-kia investigation and subsequent action. california volunteered to stake the lead on this matter. what happened during 2014, what is happening now as we speak. which is trying to determine what is the right recall solution to address these excess emissions. vw's responsibility to identify laughswhat was wrong and propose a fix. that fix did not work. most of the interactions were between california and the company. epa participated in some of them. we became much more actively involved in 2015 when california

produced their test resultses on the proposed fix of these vehicles. that data showed there still remained very high and unexplained excess emissions. >> who did you have these conversations with vw going back communicating while they're working and they're talking to you about these results? >> i was not part of those conversations. it was my team and the california counterparts. my understanding is those conversations included both officials from vw of america as well as from officials from germany. >> do you know their names for the record? >> i do not. >> are those things you can get for us >> yes. that would be important. >> now technical question. here is this switch that when in one position for an emissions test made a change in how this is operation also the emissions

will be lower. the other position, the emissions were quite high. is it possible to just keep that switch in the position of low emissions and they could be in compliance. does that damage the engine or reduce power significantly? do you have any idea? >> those are exactly the same kind of questions we are asking volkswagen right now. it's not actually a switch, sir. it is what we call a dual calibration strategy. the vehicle is programmed to work two different ways. when the vehicle senses when it's on a test, it very quickly goes into clean mode. when it does not sense the very specific parameters that are specified in federal test procedures it goes into a high pollution mode. i think what you're -- you take the software off and vehicle operate normally. we don't know yet. we're asking those questions.

the answer will depend on which generation of diesel engines we're talking about. we believe that the newer generation the generation so called generation three engines will be much easier to fix than the older versions. >> thank you. >> thanks just to continue. i want the newer version, they have these tanks. it's a system that you can both adjust the filters and the tanks. in fact, the vw dealers and the dealer in denver and also their mechanics told me, they feel like it would be a pretty easy adjustment even just in the codes to fix it in the 2015 and 2016 model. is that your understanding

mr. grudnler. >> i don't want to speculate that. that seems logical to us. we want to test the vehicle before further action can be taken >> it's the agency's position that these vehicles do need to be fixed, right? >> absolutely. >> they're noncompliant bother under federal law and california state law. some of the impressions given by volkswagen is well they're safe to drive. they might be safe to drive, they don't comply with the emission standards. for the car between 2009 and 2014, the fix is a bigger problem because they don't have the containers. it's harder to see without major structural changes how they can be brought into compliance.

is that your understanding? >> correct. they will require a more substantial injuring engineering. >> they will require installation of a system or different knocks, filters or both. that's going to be quite elaborate. i'm not a mechanic and i don't pretend to be one. i went over and looked at it, it looked like a very naughty problem to me. >> what california and epa have directed volkswagen to do is to present more than one option on how to address these excess emissions. we want to look at these options carefully. >> right. has vw -- have you given vw any kind of deadline for coming up with that fix? have they indicated to you when

they might be able to come up with? this is something that concern the panel in the earlier conversation today. >> i can assure you we have a very strong sense of urgency. we are pressing the volkswagen for that plan and for those solutions. we're meeting with them on a daily basis. we hope to get a proposal very soon. we want to make sure it's effective. there's some risk in rushing. we expect to see something as early as next week. >> has the company told you that they believe they can fix the affected vehicles without affecting fuel economy engine performance or both? >> they have not said so. >> okay. i just want to say one last thing. which is often times we have the epa inherent sometimes it's not the most pleasurable experience testifying. but in this case, the director

of the international counsel on clean transportation, which was the organization that commissioned the west virginia study, said quote, this is a powerful affirmation of u.s., federal and vehicle emission regulations and other agencies. clear protocols and requirements for the use of life vehicles. the authority to find enforced recalls. these are the best practices that regulations worldwide should incorporate. end quote. thank you an your agencies for your efforts here. i want to ask you, are you adjusting testing going forward? >> yes. we already have. >> what have you done? >> we've learned from this episode, for sure. we wish we had found it sooner. as soon as we learned of this

data -- how are you adjusting the testing going forward. >> bottom line, we are going to be unpredictable. what is required for a robust compliance and oversight program is both testing of new vehicles in the lab. testing what we call end use vehicles in the lab on road measurement. >> thanks. i don't have much time mr. brooks. are you adjusting enforcement efforts going so and if so, how? >> the answer is yes although, i think the prosecution and the investigation of this matter will proceed along our normal path. i think what we will see is -- we'll be getting a lot more phone calls from people. in that way it will change. we'll have more to respond to. >> thank you. thank you very much mr. chairman

mr. chairman. >> you're next. >> thank you very much mr. chairman appreciate you all being here. appreciate the questions being asked. there were a number of us, i'm one of the people who owns one of the diesel volkswagen. i have some questions in that regard. i think it's important that you change your testing methods. do you think it might be helpful in doing your job if we pass some legislation that would allow a portion of the fine money in a fraud case to go to the university that discovered it? wvu discovered the problem. you all didn't. i don't think the epa can and should do everything. this might be some assistance and just like we do with certain bad actors in other criminal

type of set who are committing fraud, we take some of their ill-gained goods. we take it away from them and the government gives it back to some of the folks who helped discover it. you think that might be a helpful piece of legislation for us to take a look at. either one of you. >> i don't think i can comment on what legislative changes might be necessary. i do understand that in the criminal context these kinds of remedies have been imposed before. >> the question is if you have that power now -- >> can you speak closer. >> if you currently have that power, let me know that. if you don't have that power whenever you come up with the fine that's appropriate for volkswagen, it would seem to me, i don't know that you have that authority now, to give wvu, west virginia university that uncovered this problem, part of

the fine to help them continue their research. that's what we do with prosecutors. we do that with law enforcement agencies who uncover crime. we do that in security cases. there are different ways that it's done. do you think that will be a authority to be level for people of the united states of america? >> i can take that back and we can respond in writing. >> sounds like a good idea to me. it is interesting that wvu found it and you all did not. i understand that you can't do everything. let's go to the other side of this. i will -- whatever you all come up with and whatever volkswagen comes up with,ly get my car fixed or if they do a buy back program, i'll have to debate whether it's better to fix it or sell it back to the company. i'm just curious, at some point am i going to be subject or

other consumers in my shoes are they going to be subject to penalties from the epa for driving a vehicle that doesn't meet the standards that supposed to be in place when they bought the vehicle? >> that question depends on where the particular other than of volkswagen one of these vehicles lives. if you live in an area that does regular emissions test that the state conducts these inspections, some states require that in order to reregister the vehicle, if it's subject to are and call to show that the fix has been made. other states do snot -- not have that requirement. depends on where you're living >> for some people who may not be paying attention to whatever notices they might get or for whatever reason aren't following the news. there's a whole bunch of those folks out there who don't follow

day-to-day news. they could end up with some kind of penalty from their state. would you anticipate that the epa will go in the direction of the national program if enough of the cars did not get bought back or fixed after a certain number of months? >> we certainly will be encouraging consumers to -- >> i understand. would not anticipate that. but it is a possibility. >> i don't think that's a possibility. >> let me tell you one of my concerns is. it doesn't have anything to do with you all. it's a rhetorical question. yesterday, we had epa official in and we were talking about the clean power plan and the cap and trade scheme which they didn't call cap and trade, they kept resisting that. it talks about putting limit on

emissions and making trades. sounds like cap and trade. what was interesting about it, he a list of quotes from lisa jackson in 2011, gina mccarthy 2011 gina mccarthy 2013 and 2014. they would never consider it. it wouldn't allowed the law to do a cap and trade scheme. i'm concerned, not for me, i will do what i need to do to make my car right. there will be a lot of folks out there who maybe caught. i want to make sure that the epa isn't doubling down on their damages. everyone -- i appreciate you listening to that. if you want to answer, aisle give you a chance to answer. >> ly assure you that i'm assure of a cleaner act which would allow prosecution for the things you're talking about

>> that's exactly what lisa jackson told us two or three years ago. that's okay, we'll move on. last but not least >> i will say it won't happen >> on gen1 cars. it also will take up some of the space in trunk area of the vehicle. >> that would depend on the remedy would be. as i said earlier, we're going to take a break here to look at what impact this is going to have on owners and consumers that will be central to how we review the options that volkswagen comes forward to. we don't know that yet. >> i appreciate it very much. thank you for being here. i yield back. >> thank you. mr. grundler. one of the concerns i raised with mr. horn earlier was concern about whether we might

find these devices with similar problems with other cars. do you have the tools you need to ensure there are no other cheaters out there? >> yes we do. >> i'm also concerned about maybe this is from mr. brooks, mr. the comments mr. ford made. suggesting there was no corporate responsibility. is it the epa or the ag who goes after the individual corporate or otherwise who might be responsible for this. do you at some point envision bringing charges like criminal charges against the corporation itself for this intentional deceit? >> thank you for the question. i can't speculate now as to exactly what all the enforcement

actions will take. my office has already taken the initial enforcement action. we are working with the department of justice on these matters. >> i guess what i'm asking i won't keep repeating, one more time. we keep talking about the fines because of what happened. is this rise to individual responsibility for those responsible? is there such a thing as criminal action against a corporation? i know i'm speculating, are those possibilities? >> let me be careful in answering that. i think that the concern that has been expressed here by members is exactly our concern -- who, what when, where, how and how. i'm concern that the investigations on going will get into exactly that. i don't think it will be unfair for me to say much more about

what the end result might be. >> but it's a possibility? >> certainly there are possibilities. >> okay. i was glad in mr. ford actually said that he understood the impact of these emissions and they could have health and safety impacts. he did say that. does it go beyond in that? he's admitting this took place and there could be some health and safety impacts because of the increased emissions. how does the epa hold volkswagen responsible for the environment environmental effects. does the epa consider -- is it possible that they will be held responsible for the impact on essentially dirty air? not just fix the cars but there might be some damages or some kind of payment that would have to be made.

the air was made dirty and people health and safety were impacted? >> the answer to that is yes. while it may go by different names, we tend to talk about it in terms of mitigation. the concept there is exactly what you articulated. looking for the opportunities the ways in which the damage that has been done to the environment and which has impacts on public health, can be addressed. obviously we can't go back in time. many of our settlements look forward and ask the question. how is it we can make air quality better than what the law minimally requires. that additional reduction in pollution is what we refer to as mitigation. we have consent decrees that go about doing that in many

different ways. >> for example, you could impose some penalties that might be used to mitigate air pollution in other ways. not by vw but that the epa would use that money to mitigate air pollution in some other way? just give me an example >> lot of the power plant case, we have had projects for example where the company has had to go out and find a third party to implement a wood stove change out program. so that cleaner burning stoves more efficient wood stoves are substituted for dirtier stoves. that has a direct impact on air quality and communities because there are lots of communities out there that rely very heavily on wood burning devices >> thank you very much. thank you mr. chairman. >> recognize dr. burgess for five minutes.

>> thank you mr. chairman. i apologize for being out the room for part of the hearing. i'm going to ask a couple of questions. if they've been asked before, please bare with me and try to give answer as consistent. first off, what is the budget for the epa currently? >> i don't have the budget for the entire epa. i can give you the budget for my organization. >> we'll take that. >> it's roughly $100 million a year and 340 full time people that work in my organization >> budget for the epa, i'm relying on memory, i think it is close to $15 billion. the epa has resources available. it has funding available. >> i do want to correct that. i think epa's budget is around $7 billion and about 15,000

people roughly. >> nevertheless, west virginia university had a budget for this research project around 50, 60 or $70,000. >> i'm not going to blame our budget for the fact that we missed this cheating. i do think we do a very good job of setting priorities at epa. once we've learned of this excess emissions we focused on it. we didn't ignore it. we've also immediately changed how we're doing our testing regime to be more unpredictable. >> well, with all due respect. just looking at the situation. i think the american people ought to ask that we fire you and hire western virginia university to do our work. they're much more cost

effective. let me ask you this. i sat on another subcommittee. we have jurisdiction over the national highway transportation administration. this is not a safety issue as they are driven. there are emissions issues. is that correct >> that's correct. >> does epa do its own kind of recall that is separate and apart? >> we do. >> would this be www.recalls.gov that is the website that consumers can go to find out information about the recall or the possible recall on their vehicle? >> we have not ordered a recall yet. when we do, we'll provide that information for sure. >> that information will be on your website? >> yes. >> i went to the website, they printed it off for me. you can get information about pesticides, pesticide websites,

epa emission recalls where i assume this would fall. is that correct? when you click on that link, you get a page not found. website improvements under way. can you let consumers know when they are likely to be able to get that information off your website? >> again, we've not ordered a recall. so there's no recall information. we have information on our website that talks about our notice in violation and what consumers need to know today. which is they can drive these cars. these cars are safe to drive. they will not be held responsible for any repairs. >> let me ask you this. mr. pallone was asking you things about payment to damages and because of the issue that the air was dirtier and health and safety have been impacted.

volkswagen of america is going to face some significant fines and penalties by the environmental protection agency. are they not >> i think that's very likely. >> have you heard that to the ceo of volkswagen, don't be dismissive. don't run from the fact that this has happened. i will a lot of people ask me that if a private company done that and turned the river yellow they will be held -- there will be fines and mitigation costs. does epa hold itself to the same

standard to which it holds private corporations? if not why not >> ask you me to testify about the gold king mine situation? >> just in general. epa causes a problem, or should they be held to the same standard. i'm not asking you to testify. i think we should have a hearing on that as a separate issue. answer the question. should epa be held to the same standards to which you will hold a private corporation? >> all i can say i'm not familiar with the details, i have seen and read that the administrator has taken full responsibility for that situation. we're acting accordingly. >> the gentlemen from virginia and texas both touting my neighboring state, western university. it's nice to see them get that accolades for doing such good work. >> gentlemen on

september 18th, epa issued a notice of violation against volkswagen. model years from 2009 to 2015. according to epa, the software produced by volkswagen is a defeat advice. i understand that vw admitted in august to installing defeat devices on their vehicle. is that correct? >> i would describe in mid olate august in october opinion we -- we were officially notified on september 3rd. what did vw tell epa that they have done to the emissions? >> we were informed that the vehicle has a dual calibration strategy. which allowed the vehicle to

operate one way. when it was tested by the epa and completely different way when the vehicle was on the road >> has vw provided epa with an engine match -- map that shows how the device worked? >> that is my understanding. like to double check that for you. >> i understand the affected vehicle falls in generation based on the model and year. at this point, does epa have a full understanding of how the fee devices work >> we do no not. >> what else do you need and has vw been helpful? what doles they need to provide to the epa to give you information that you need?

>> the information we're focused on now like laser is what are they going to do to address these excess emissions and take the software off these vehicles so they comply. we don't need to know specifically how they cheated with each line of code. the most important thing going forward is that those defeat devices are removed. these vehicles are addressed in a way that will work with consumers. >> you said you've learned some lessons here. does epa have the expertise right now or do you hire consultants? >> we do. we don't need unpack lines ever code to find these defeat advices. bottom line is testing them in unpredictable ways so we activate these devices. that's the bottom line >> are you taking broader actions now that you've learned lessons about how software code can be deceptive used.

>> yes we do. >> are you going to do that? >> we are. >> can you explain that? >> we have a number of different kinds of testing we do. we test every new model of vehicle. sorry, we require the manufacturers to test every new model and submit that data to us. we audit certain percentage of those by testing them our laboratory. we also audit by measuring real world emissions using these mobile devices. it's going to be a combination of both laboratory testing activity testing. we know how to download this software. >> back to vw, does epa know yet whether vw can successfully fix the cars here in the u.s.?

>> we don't know that yet. >> vw has a number of internal and external investigations. have volkswagen committed to sharing the results of those investigation with the epa? >> they have not. let me defer to my colleague here. have you asked them for that information? >> they would not agree at this time. >> have you asked them whether they will claire that information with the epa? >> we have outstanding official document request. today we learned this morning about one particular investigation and that is certainly -- >> will you let the committee know if vw does not provide the results of their internal investigation. thanks.

>> we have a vote coming up. >> i just wanted to make one point here and submit this with unanimous consent. the easiest solution is to give epa more solution. he said you don't want to rely on the happenstance and the investigation. >> we got three mibs members to ask questions. how many folks do we have? >> on september 25th of 2015, the agency announced they will be conducting an additional testing to 58.

-- evaluate. >> we teamed up with california and environment canada. all who have the capabilities. >> how many vehicle have you tested? >> we are still testing the first batch of vehicles >> what are you seeing so far? >> i have not seen any data yet -- >> we've been careful not to share with the automaker. we want to be unpredictable. there will be a combination of both these five cycles. what we call off cycle. >> does this include all light duty vehicles or just diesel technology? >> we're starting with diesels. >> would you be willing to

commit to keep the committee informed. >> yes. >> do you think that this is an isolated incident. do you have concerns with diesel technology in general? >> i don't have concerns with diesel technology in general. we're going to be taking a close look. >> i yield back mr. chairman. >> we only have six minutes to get to the floor >> who's job is it to make consumers whole? we're not the consumer protection agency. there are other federal agencies and state agencies that have that responsibility. as i testified earlier, the consumer will be central to how

we are reviewing the options to address the emissions. >> the excess emissions now are violating the epa standard. we just heard testimony from votes, i have a letter sent to owners that says you can still drive them. under what authority does the epa say these cars that are emitting 10 to 40 times the allowed amount, to continue to be on the road? >> the responsibility and the liability for those competentes -- that why we're conducting this investigation and learn lag the remedy is and then pursuing mitigation. >> you said that some states -- if they were to bring their car n then the consumer could be

responsible for the emissions. >> it's our devices that these devices will defeat -- >> in the meantime, half a million cars running around that are emitting greater emissions. what then, does the epa do? we heard it could be for a year. maybe more than a year before there's any real fix >> i don't know how throng will take to get the real fix. the goal of our enforce enforcement action will be to make the economy whole. >> you know there's a half million cars that consumers are told they can legally drive. that are meeting more than than your roll say. what's happening now to hold

them accountable for that? you don't have to test them. you know they're over the line. >> the owners of these vehicles are innocent in this matter. we are working with california to identify how to make these vehicles compliance. once we are confident that we have the right remedy, we'll order those recalls. the >> will they be penalized for having these noncompliant cars? >> the consumers? >> no, the company >> no, that will be the result of our ongoing investigation. that's what will be determined by the investigation >> what part of this don't you know already? you know that all of those cars are exceeding your rules. i don't get if.

>> there are many things we don't know. we don't know the why, what and where. >> you know the fact of it though. the z the fact is volkswagen designed and installed illegal software. >> they're admitting all of these extra emissions. >> we've not done that calculation yet. we know they can be anywhere from 10 to 40 times. i've done the math to find out what those excess tons are. >> i yield back. >> ms. clark. >> thank you mr. chairman. i like to pick up on the floor just raised by my colleague with respect to the emissions testing. new york state is one of those states that requires emissions testing. typically f you're a --

typically, you can be fined. because of this device most likely those vehicles would not be detected. >> correct. >> however, that doesn't change the fact that the normal circumstances, these vehicles would not be permitted on the road. to have your agency say, because it's not your fault, you can continue to drive. doesn't it sort of undermine the state requirement for certain emissions level to be contain. for you to undermine that with the ability -- for most people when their vehicle has emission problem, don't recognize it or don't think it's their fault either. we have to remedy it.

otherwise we're fine. here we have the self-vehicles running around in certain jurisdictions that would fail that. how do you reconcile that? >> the fines are a matter of state law. the way to reconcile that is to identify an effective remedy. once that remedy is fixed, those vehicle will pass the state inspections. >> the challenge that this has been happening with vehicles since 2009. we have no idea when this remedy will be cooked up. we don't know that remedy will be hard and fast. we're hoping. there's going to be testing.

there's going to be concern going forward because of the deception of how all of this occurred. we're talking about software here. how do we reconcile that? are we able to determine those states that do require -- how many vehicles, are you resident within those states. what the immediate impact will be to the environment of the people that reside in those state naps we've been able to get a sense of that. >> that will be determined as result of our investigation. it is mobile -- we want to have the confidence that it will be effective. but that will require some time >> do you that i want you will

be hearing from state attorney generals and other concern entities within these states. probably their own environmental protection organizations at the state controversial try to get a handle around this. there are certain area where is this type of emission -- troubled circumstances for individual who have health compromise. >> that will all go into part how we're going to resolve this.

>> in closing you've been able to complete urinals, if you urinals if you can your -- analysis that will be helpful. we like to attribute that to maybe the changes that occurred in the atmosphere as a result of maybe a cluster of ownership. -in a particular jurisdiction. i think that's going to be very important for us to know. >> i to state and rule and anti-tampering laws, it's also whether a criminal penalties. we would appreciate that as

you're getting this information for us. this will be helpful for the committee. i ask unanimous consent to the document to be introduced into the record. the documents will be entered the record. i want to thank the witness for coming today. we appreciate your time and your attention in this difficult matter. thank you for testimony and to the members for their devotion. we hope you will respond. with that, a hearing is adjourned. >> the house budget committee will work on a budget bill that will eliminate federal funding for planned parenthood. the committee will try to reconcile from the ways and means committee, the energy committee and the education and workforce committee.