. i think that is a big part of the problem. ing marijuana is a good way to start that, and get rid of mandatory minimum so that these people don't get charged with all this extra time that they don't really deserve to have in the first place. sam does not take -- famm stand ontake a marijuana. in the federal system, it is mostly cocaine. honestly, if marijuana were legalized in most of the states, i doubt the federal government would prosecute very many marijuana cases. they can, even in the states where does legal. change the landscape. it would change the dynamic, definitely. a full legalization is not a stance that famm takes. host: when do you think congress

may move on these bills? guest: i think congress may move very quickly. i would be surprised -- i hate to put a prediction out there because it is low in congress, but i would think maybe even by the end of this year we may see some reforms passed. particularly because the chairs of the house and judiciary committee now have bills, are willing to be on board, have hearings, and move things. up until that point, it is like, if they don't have hearings, we can't get bills to pass. none of this is going to move until the chairs of the judiciary committee, on board. now, i think we will see some movement by the end of the year. host: julie stewart of families against mandatory minimums. it is our regular your money segment.

this week, we will take a look charter schools. richard kahlenberg of the century foundation joins us next for that discussion as "the washington journal" continues. ♪ >> tonight on c-span's new series, "landmark cases," in 1830, dred scott was in slave to dr. john emerson. during his and list the army, emerson was assigned to duties in several free states, during which dred scott married henrietta robinson. when emerson died, dred scott robinson, but it

was refused. with our special guest, christopher bracy and martha jones, who will explore this historic supreme court ruling and the life and times of the people involved in the case. be sure to join the conversation, as we will be take your calls, tweets, cal and fack comments during the program. for background on each case while you watch, order your copy of "landmark cases" companion book. it is available for $8.95 at c-span.org. >> c-span has your coverage for the road to the white house 2016, where you will find the candidates, this reaches, the

debates, and most importantly, your questions. this year, we are taking our coverage into classrooms across the country with our student cap contest, giving students the opportunity to discuss what important issues they want to hear the most from the candidates. m conteste student ca on tv, the radio, and online at c-span.org. >> "washington journal" continues. host: it is time for our regular your money segment. this week, a look at charter schools, especially in light of the announcement of federal charter schools. join us for this conversation, richard kahlenberg of the century foundation. what is a charter school? guest: it is a publicly funded but privately managed school. the idea started in 1988 when al

president ofwas the american foundation of teachers, a teacher union president, said, we need more experimentation in public education. his idea was that a small number of teachers could go off and start a new school, try new things, from which the traditional public schools would learn. it was originally a very idea.ative sort of since then, we have moved to a more competitive model where you have charter schools against regular public schools. host: is it still technically considered a public school? guest: there is a big controversy over that. they are publicly funded, and the proponents of charter schools like to argue that these are public institutions. they are in the sense that no one pays tuition, and you can't tests.out students for a test

on the other hand, there have been disputes on whether you can unionize at a charter school. there, many of the charter schools claimed they are private and should be governed under private laws. there is some debate about that question. host: how does accountability work at a charter school? at a public school, you take tests, you meet requirements. does that work at the charter school? guest: yes. charter school students are also tested by greg at a public school students. there is flexibility for charter schools as well. that is where we get into some of the controversy. host: give an example. someone start one? can you give examples of some that work across the united states? guest: there are a lot of great examples of good charter schools that are faithful to the original al shanker vision --

charter schools would be places where we would learn lessons. in denver, for example, people were not satisfied with some of the traditional public schools, denveroup started the school of science and technology. that school was meant to bring students of all different backgrounds together. the denver schools are fairly segregated. founders of the school said, this is a way to bring children of different backgrounds to come together, learn together. let's see what the traditional public schools can learn from that. host: couldn't someone make the argument, why can't they learned these things and digital public -- in a traditional public school? guest: absolutely. there's a lot of innovation in the traditional public school sector. there is something of a rival between magnet schools, which are traditional public schools

that you choose to attend and do offer special themes, and charter schools, which offer that alternative. the primary difference between these two approaches is charter schools tend to be nonunionized. advocates say that means there is more flexibility to try new things. i think the response to that is is teachers don't feel like they have a safety net, if they don't them, union protecting they may be less likely to experiment. there's a lot of controversy over whether this theory works in practice. host: a discussion on charter schools for your your money segment this week. (202) 748-8000 if you are an educator. (202) 748-8001 for parents. all others, (202) 745-8002. "the wall street journal" has a story take look at charter schools this morning. they tell us the number of

2013-2014ost for the school year was a little over 6000. when it comes to enrolled students, 2.5 million students. what do those numbers tell you? guest: the charter school movement has exploded. as of 25 years ago, we had no charter schools. now, we are seeing a big growth in charter schools in cities like new orleans, washington, d.c., a substantial number of students are attending charter schools. on the flip side, those numbers suggest about 5% of school students attend charter schools. 95% of students are still in the judicial system. that is why i'm hoping the charter schools will get back to the traditional model where they are there to try new things, but primarily to inform the traditional school system.

as i said, we have gotten away from that. there is this competition between the two that i do not think has been as productive. host: what caused it? guest: quite frankly, this idea that came from a teacher union leader on the left was hijacked by conservatives in many cases. i want to be clear, there are a lot of progress is out there supporting charter schools. primarily, it became a market-driven model where the idea was if there is competition , judicial public schools will improve. there has not been a lot of evidence to back that up. as dollars for charter schools, $157 million awarded to expand charter schools this year. host: what did taxpayers get for

that? clear.it is not quite there was an inspectors general report that came out in 2012 that said the department of education is not doing a good job making sure that this money is well spent and that there are positive results coming from children. that is one area where we could see some more oversight. particularly, in this administration, there has been a strong sense that if schools are going to receive federal dollars, there needs to be accountability and information coming back to the administration on how money is being spent. this is an administration that has gotten very involved in the nuts and bolts of running a school. there has been a backlash in congress over a federal inrreach, but it said that charter schools, there has not been good oversight. we don't a good sense of whether the money was well spent or not.

host: richard kahlenberg, here to talk about charter schools. (202) 748-8000 for educators. (202) 748-8001 for parents. for all others, (202) 745-8002. the century foundation, what is it? guest: we are a progressive think tank. we were founded in 1919. we are really a group concerned about inequality in society and a variety of different areas. education, naturally, is one of our focus is. we also work on foreign policy and health care, social security, those types of issues. host: our first call is jenny, tallahassee, florida. an educator. thank you for calling. caller: yes. , in thelike to say that south, when we desegregated the

caucasiany of the parents fled to private schools. therefore, public schools became pretty much all black. what has happened is charter schools are a mechanism to front the schools that the whites fled to. there is a lot of discrepancy about charter schools that helper schools not only desegregated schools, they also don't have rules. -- if they are

so-called educationally deprived, or whatever, charter schools do not have to take those children. host: we will let our guest respond. guest: i think you raise a about theortant issue degree to which charter schools are increasing segregation in our schools as a whole. going back to house shanker's original idea, the notion is that charter schools will be a place where children of all different backgrounds can come together because you don't have to afford to live in a certain neighborhood. in theory, charter schools could provide that degree of integration. in fact, you are right that there are higher levels of segregation in charter schools today than there are in traditional public schools. it works both ways. there are some schools where white students have seen charter schools as a way to flee

integrated public schools. that is a deep concern. on the other hand, there are some charter schools moving in precisely the opposite direction. where you have many more charter schools, some refer to them as minority.schools, 99% original vision of charter schools promoting integration has in some cases been inverted where charter schools are actually promoting more segregation. host: aren't their systems from preventing that from happening? guest: no. what the charter school operators will suggest is these are parents voluntarily making choices.

therefore, we don't have to segregation. the federal government steps in went the school district is ansciously segregating system. de facto segregation, when it just results in fact, segregation is in fact not illegal. the federal government only steps in when there are conscious efforts from the school to segregate. host: larry up next. good morning. caller: good morning. the right to think that charter schools -- the land that they are both on, and the , is paid byelf state taxes?

is that the case? guest: charter schools are publicly funded. appropriations are based on the number of students you have. the buildings themselves can be funded in a variety of ways, through expenditures of the government. the federal government has a charter school fund that moneyes start up for institutions. and, sometimes private money is used. host: interviewer asked -- eight a you are asked if charter schools have to teach, core? guest: no. that is not part of the charter school idea. they will be judged on whether they make the common core

standards. they will be judged by those results. there is no particular curriculum that is prescribed for any charter school. host: in the public, we hear the argument of teaching to the test . our charter schools exempt from the idea or concept? guest: no. they will be subject to the same tests that each state provides. they will be judged on those bases. they need to pay attention. that is something that some people have been concerned with in charter schools that there is so much focus on the tests that students do not have the dig into topics that are not tested, and get a broader, more well-rounded education. michael from grand rapids,

michigan, and educator. caller: i have three points. caller touched on my my question is really about one, transportation. this allows the opportunity for some parents to get their students to the charter schools. also, the acceptance of special ed students, and students who might ha discipline problems orve emotional problems. into publicplaced schools. it forces the public schools to take more difficult students. guest: i think that is a very valid concern. if you look at the

special education numbers. you see lower numbers of special chartern students and schools. that raises a question, is it really fair to compare the academic results of charter schools and traditional public schools when, in many cases, they are teaching a different set of students. that goes back to the point i was trying to raise earlier that , as the mission of charter from cooperation to competition, we saw study whom,study of whom beats which i think is the wrong focus given that, in part, they are teaching different populations. instead, we need to get back to the original vision of how can we learn lessons from what the charter schools are doing right, and apply it so that all students can benefit.

the competitive model has gotten in the way of that effort. host: what are the educational requirements for a teacher in a charter school versus a public school? guest: this is another area where there is basically deregulation in the charter area. in most cases, you will need a college degree, for example. in general, they don't have to go through the same certification of those invitational public school. host: what is the argument, the rationale? guest: the theory is that we cannot predict to will be a great teacher. -- e open up the floodgates malcolm gladwell had a story in "the new yorker" recently and said anyone who has a college ulse should try teaching. that is the theory. you will have a broader scope of

teachers to get into the profession. then, we could see, based on .erformance, how teachers do i think many teachers find that incredibly insulting. speciale gone through training on pedagogy, teaching methods, and ways in which children learn. they want to be considered a true profession, and don't think that just anyone can teach. host: new york, i live for parents. here is gwen for our guest. caller: i understand why parents have resorted to charter schools and why they are so excited about it. i have two children. graduatedlong since from the public school system, but my kids attended public they attended public school in different -- i don't know what to call it -- tax

brackets or neighborhoods. they were very young, i was not as successful as i am now. me and my husband relies, we had to change our area code in order to provide .ur kids with better education we didn't really want to go to a private school. to work aier for us little harder, make a little move,oney to move, move, until we moved to an area where they could get a really good public school education. our taxes were skyhigh, but they could get really good public school education, and there was a difference. every time you moved, there was a difference in the quality of education. it was crazy how huge and glaring of a difference there was in the quality of education. having said that, how can you

compare a charter school that is theregulated and held to publicandards to the school system? i'm not one person that believes that just because you apply the private structure to something -- competition is not always good. i see this as another way for all to make money. it is government money. they know there is no end to it because everybody has to send their kids to school. host: we will let our guest respond. guest: let me pick up on a couple of things. one, there is the question of the profit motive in the charter school actor. to be clear, most charter schools are not-for-profit. there are some charter schools that are out to make a profit. colleagueook with my

called "the smarter charter," and we call for an elimination of those schools. there is a conflict there. we know a lot of these for-profit charter's of using online education because it is very inexpensive. they are not getting great results. we need to move away from that. the other thing i will pick up on is this idea that, in the united states today, you need to house in a buy a middle-class neighborhood in order to get access to good schooling. aspiration ofthe the charter school community is right, which is let's open up public schools to anyone, no matter where they live, so that they can access a good education. there is research going back 50 years to suggest that one of the best things you can do for a low income student is give her a a goodto go to

middle-class school where she will be surrounded by peers who expect to go on to college, buy a position to fall into your in class, and keep an eye on how things are going in the school, and where you can get great teachers. middle-class schools are 22 times as likely to be high-performing as high poverty schools. low income students, who get to go to these more affluent two years ahead of students stuck in low income schools. charter schools are, in erie, trying to get at this issue of segregation. unfortunately, in execution, most of the charter schools and the exacerbated the economic segregation and making things worse. host: philadelphia,

pennsylvania, sheila. caller: i'm sorry, i have a cold, excuse my voice. what are the reasons -- he said is that middle-class schools are better at educating because of the tax structure and money that goes into middle-class schools, and more than likely, parents of middle-class students are more involved in the child's education. teaches in ther camden school district, and so many of those parents are not truly involved in those children's education, it takes more than just a teacher who is willing. if that were the case, i have seen many camden teachers who excellent teachers. they get weighed down by parents who do not want to get involved. it is the parent responsibility, as well as the educator.

another thing, i believe that charter schools, for the most republicans want charter schools, and mainly romney and rick scott of florida, whose families are involved in the charter school business. it is a way to stop the unions in public schools. to maketo find a way our public schools better. if we don't, there are whole segments of our population that are not going to be educated. i have seen it time after time after time. thank you. 100% that the teachers in high poverty schools and places like camden are being heldrly treated, and accountable for all kinds of things that go on outside of the classroom that the teacher cannot control.

that has been a major, major problem with the no child left behind act from george bush, and quite frankly, the obama administration's race to the top program that did not knowledge that teachers in high poverty schools are facing very difficult -- having said that, one point of disagreement is it is not just the resources in the school, as we traditionally think of them. there was an interesting experiment right out of washington, d.c. hs.y had to pt one was a program to provide extra financing in high poverty schools in the eastern part of the county. for spent about $2000 extra smaller class sizes and other important investments. that had some positive affects,

but what had a much bigger affect was a second strategy, which allowed low income families to live in public housing in wealthier parts of montgomery county. we could compare students, who were randomly assigned, to public housing units in montgomery county. question became is that the investment of extra funds that makes the difference or is it being around peers who are academically engaged, and parents and position -- you know, not working several jobs, so they have time to volunteer in class. ,he problem with our current segregated system, teachers consider it a promotion to move from a high poverty schools to a middle-class school because the working conditions are much more favorable in middle-class schools. we have to figure out ways to get more low income students a

chance to go to really strong, economically mixed schools. host: off of twitter, of you are viewer asked, how successful are charter schools compared to those who receive school vouchers? results of private school voucher programs are very mixed. not a lot of gains for students. the same can be said for the charter school sector. there are some great charter schools. there are a lot of terrible charter schools. on net, their ends up not being very much difference. i think the problem with both approaches is they are aimed at saying, if we change the governing structure of schools, that will make a big difference. isaac there there's a lot of evidence going back half a century that what is really driving educational inequality theinequality in the home -- family access to resources --

but then, inequality driven by schooling. andheory, private schools vouchers could address that problem, but they haven't. host: this is ruth from north carolina. hello. you are on, go ahead. tell you what, we will put her try justin. justin in clinton, ohio, good morning. caller: good morning. i have to say, it is encouraging to hear a progressive presenting valuable information that money is not the answer, the culture is. that is really the key to educating kids. anybody who uses their brain a little bit knows that if you're not going to put a kid and a good environment to learn, they are not going to learn.

we have a growing class of uneducated people in this country. we are tolerating it. we should step on people, and tell them their family is what matters, and if they don't take care of their children -- it doesn't matter how much money you spend on them -- they just will not be educated. keep up the good work, sir. thank you. guest: and unusual conservative where we are in some agreement. i have the clear, i don't think money is your velvet. i think it can matter in education. it clearly does. there is evidence that suggests that. what matters more is the environment in which students are taught. that. environment, and the rest. many say, there's nothing we can do because the family is the

biggest predictor in academic achievement. there is some truth to that, but no one picks their parents. we have to make sure that the public schools provide that in bridging environment in which all students, whatever their academic background, whoever their parents, can flourish. one of the best things we can do is make sure we don't have poor kids who have already had one strike against them face a second strike because they are in economically segregated schools. host: is their bipartisan support for charter schools on capitol hill? guest: there is. there many conservatives who are strongly supportive of charter schools because they like the idea of competition and deregulation. there are some liberals, as well. the president, much to the mystification of any of us has been a huge supporter of charter schools.

itsas put in a request for 300 million dollars for charter schools, compared to $100 million for nine in schools, which are designed -- they are unionized, and designed to bring children of different backgrounds together, where charter schools are not doing that, for the most part. i mean,s a consensus -- if you look at how our campaigns are funded, that may explain it. charter schools are very popular among hedge fund managers. they like the idea of a fairly and extensive intervention that so there isons, and a divide between the democratic party that goes to whether you are more said that that it to oeachers and unions or t hedge fund managers of people who like deregulation. unionsow did teacher

currently look to charter schools? is there the same affection for? guest: no. the american federation of like thehave said they original idea of charter schools, where the teachers would have voice in the system. they would be unionized, but also have even more say in how the goal was run -- the school was run. they like the idea of integrated schooling. it is just that we have deviated from that original model. how shanker was the head of the american federation of teachers, and propose the charter school idea, but t toward the end of his life, he grew increasingly skeptical of the direction of the movement. in the book, "a smarter charter," we talk about 20 charter schools who are for filling that original vision. there are some great charter schools out there like the denver school of science and

technology. integrated.sciously there are others like the green .ot charter school in those schools, there are much lower turnover rates than other charter schools. that has been one of the biggest problems, teachers do not stay because they do not have voice in the way the school is run. host: the book is called "the smarter charter," richard kahlenberg, co-author of the book. go ahead. .uth, and good morning we will go on to mike in kentucky. caller: how are you doing this morning? guest: good. earlieryou was saying foundhe supreme court there was organized segregation

in these counties, or whatever, they would have to step in. of't these charter schools formal way around the law? my other question is if you took like 10 white boys, or 10 my people, and put them in a predominantly black school, they would be bullied and harassed, we know that. if you took 10 blacks and put them in a predominantly white school, they would be harassed too. if theference would be blacks were harassed in these schools, the news would come to their defense, and if the whites -- if it was the other way around, they would not say a word about it. can you speak to this? guest: i will say a couple of things. one is i think the primary focus

on making sure we have integrated schools has shifted from this focus on race on a focus on social economic status. that a school with a lot of african-american students has anything wrong with it, that students cannot learn in those schools, of course they can. it is that concentrations of poverty of whatever race tend to present problems for public education. to give you one example, in louisville, kentucky, there is an elementary school that was dutifully integrated by race. 50% black, 50% white. it was 100% poor. the school was a disaster educationally. now people are focusing more on the socioeconomic status than the race. ,hen we have integrated schools

have there been incidents where minority students or white students are made not to feel welcomed? of course. all, there is nothing inevitable about that. if you have leadership in the school to make sure that all students are treated fairly, then that is the answer. and, we have some really good evidence that parents today are looking for something better for their children, that they see positive benefits denigration. we are in a very different era than the compulsory desegregation of the 1970's when there was a lot of violence and resistance. host: albany, louisiana, betty is next. she is an educator. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. as a teacher, i found over the years that no matter what populations due to you have, if you do not have discipline, you

can't teach. i think i've seen, as a matter of fact, because i tend to go that the disciplinary schools are worse. things that are not ignored before our ignored now. you are not going to teach a child unless the children realize that there is a set structure, and they have to follow the set structure. the more chaos you have in the school and classrooms, the less they are going to learn. i think the bigger problem is that society, as well as the classroom, has ignored that fact that students need structure. students will do exactly what you expect of them. if you expect little, you will get little.

if you expect a lot, they will do a lot. thank you. guest: i completely agree that without discipline and order in the classroom, very little learning goes on. to the extent that charter schools -- some charter schools are performing better public schools, it may be the fact that charter schools are able to counsel out disruptive students. that is one of the areas where we could learn a lesson. not that we want to kick disruptive kids out of school altogether, but rather, we need to find, in our public schools, our traditional public schools, ways to ensure that teachers are not overwhelmed with discipline issues. there is evidence that in high poverty schools, where poverty is concentrated, you have the

of disorder ins the classroom. are inrast, if students economically integrated environments, you can create a system in which there are models hope,dents that have , toct to go on to college become academically and professionally successful, and that can have a big impact on their fellow students. that is one way of addressing the discipline problem. host: is there more parent support in a charter school set up in a public school set up? guest: on average, there are greater levels of parental involvement in charter schools, just by nature of the structure. you have to choose to apply to a charter school. it is not like you live in the neighborhood, and are assigned

to a public school. these are parents that are already invested enough to go through the application process. they sign a contract that they volunteer a certain number of hours in the school. mixedi kind of have thoughts on. on the one hand, i like the idea that all parents are welcome and involved in the school, bald on the other hand, is that a screening device so that parents who cannot read the contract, or who is intimidated by the idea of having to commit to a certain number of hours of volunteering, when they are already stretched thin, when they don't have a car to get to the school -- i mean, he can be a way of screening out certain populations. host: richard kahlenberg of the century foundation talking about

charter schools. he is a senior fellow, and has also written a book on the topic. thanks. guest: we are going to take you to an event that is taking place at the no labels convention with 2016 presidential candidates speaking at the convention. they want to agree to goals that unite the country, senator cory gardner speaking at that event and we will take it to you. rdner: we must find a way to move forward. at the end of my senate race in 2014, i said this. the people of colorado had their voices heard. they are not read. they are not blue. but they are crystal-clear. crystal-clear to washington, get the heck out of the way and get your job done. [applause] sen. gardner: