"sold out" about the abused of the guestworker program by corporations. ♪ host: you have seen what is going on on college campuses. cnn recently ran a story online with the headline "do u.s. colleges have a race problem?" that is our jumping off point for opening discussion on "washington journal." 202 is the area code. . democrats.r atependents you can call in 748-8002. we have set aside our fourth line for college students.

you can also get through on social media. lively conversation already going on on facebook. @c-spanwj.t to or e-mail address is journal@cspan. org. do u.s. colleges have a race problem is our question. here is the wall street journal's morning alarticle. universities are struggling to balance the free exchange of ideas with students growing desire to be shield by offensive views. at the heart of protests that have roiled campuses around the country. the missouri to yale to university of california, public and private schools have become embroiled in conversation -- and controversies that has faculty concerned about the stifling of free speech, and many students upset that their appeals to rid campuses of intolerance and racial insensitivity are being given short strip.

while the tension between political correctness and open en colleges foriv decades, a hunger strike in protest over racial incidents that forced of the university of missouri's presidents on monday have supercharge the debate -- that is from the wall street journal this morning. there is a side article at past to this larger article. cmomedy at college is no laughing matter. concernsians, rising about students reaction to potentially sensitive subjects like those that have roiled the university of missouri and yale university are no joke. stars such as chris rock and jerry seinfeld have said they college shows

anymore because the audiences are too easily offended. have contracts that for bid performers from using certain words or even broaching entire subjects. 202 the area code. -8000 for democrats. for republicans. fourth line set aside for college students. nick kristof, the columnist in the new york times, this is from yesterday. it is entitled "the zoo yale and free speech." "on university campuses across the country

we have also seen wesley students cut funding for a newspaper after it ran an op ed criticizing black lives matter. among holyoke, nick kristof cancer the production of the vagina monologues because they felt it excluded transgender women -- that is nick kristof writing yesterday in the new york times. we begin this morning with a call from omaha, nebraska. justin, you are on the air. republican line.

i'm republican. i have an associates degree in criminal justice. when i went to the community college, it was pretty diverse ethnically but id don't understand quite what is going on here. it seems like the left is really pushing an agenda. you understand that part of american government is somewhat philosophical. that is why love c-span. i don't understand what is going on here. it is like suddenly all the rules have changed. everybody has a point of view that we're all made with our own gifts and talents, but this is just outrageous. again, this is only my opinion. back someoneou into a corner and forced them to side, depending on

which media outlet you watch, i'm a white, right wing bigot and that's not true. but i'm not going to be personally intimidated by this stuff. i just, i don't understand it. carson recently reacted on foxnews to what happened at the university of missouri. dr. carson: we're being a little o tolerant excepting infantile behavior. i do not care which side it comes from. to say that i have the right to violate your civil rights because you are offending me is on american. it is unconstitutional. and the officials at these places must recognize that and have the moral courage to stand up to it, because of they do

not, it will grow, it will exacerbate the situation, and we will move much further toward anarchy than anybody can imagine and much more quickly. we simply cannot allow those kinds of things to happen. and we must encourage open dialogue. host: colleen on our facebook page opstposts. u.s. colleges have a liberal problem since they all teach hate, they should not receive taxpayer funding. the students are being taught to hate their country, hate people because of their religion, hate those who have strived to crime the -- to climb the ladder of success. marie is a democrat in new york. you're on the air. caller: i'm looking at what is happening right now and it is making me very sad. the late college in 1970's, early 1980's, and when i look at what is happening with my kids at college.

i went to a place that was incredibly inclusive. everybody had a voice. we were welcoming to each other. there was a sense of unity. buwhat i see right now is divisiveness. host: and what do think the cause of that divisiveness is? caller: maybe it are as political environment that is creating that for our students. -- our political environment. i think there has to be a whole lot more listening and a whole lot more -- discrimination demonstrations spread at universities across the u.s. this is in the new york times. at claremont mckenna college in california, a junior class president resigned tuesday after facebookver a photograph that showed her posing with two women who were wearing some boroughs, panchos and mustaches for halloween. a campus demonstration followed on wednesday. richard an independent in

massachusetts. you are on "washington journal." do u.s. colleges have a race problem? caller: no. the race problem is brought on by the blacks themselves. everything that i hear is always race, race. if you go against them, you are a rcacist. this is the problem. the government has to interfere and say hey, let's knock this garbage off. i'm getting sick and tired of hearing race. every time we have an american -- an african-american -- i watched this show for 11 years, and i'm getting so fed up with this race stuff, it's ridiculous. it is a sad day when we are pitting each other against each other on the government is not doing nothing but siding with them. that is my comment.

and i thank you very much for listening to me. host: from orlando is mark, a democrat. caller: yeah, i'm surprised at how people want to trivialize the idea of race. you know, racism is rampant in our country. you know, and there was one time when i was living in a blighted neighborhood and i was, because i am a white guy, i had people speak to me in a way that was subject was predicated by the fact that i was white. it's horrifying. because what response you make when someone says, you are certain color. therefore, you are without value. that is what racism is doing. there was an article in the orlando sentinel by a sports editor. everything that is going on at the university of missouri is adolescent and do you want football teams, you know,

bringing this much power to bear? you know. we won't even go into the economics of sports and colleges. they way they abuse people that play. but i mean, you can't ignore the problem of racism and expected to go away. and trying to trivialize the problem is no solution. i do not know what the solution is. it has been ongoing since the day they wrote the constitution and put in the 3/5th law. anyway, that is what i wanted to say. host: from usa today. university of missouri interim president. here is his picture. the governing board of the university of missouri on thursday named a black law professor --

blame white people who do not understand racial inequality. i blame our ugly history." our republican line. susan, what do you think what is going on on college campuses? caller: oh, i think it is just horrible. just breaking up the community, breaking up our nation.

that general men who started the hunger strike, that youngman, i aad yesterday how he's in congress like because of the system, the man is putting him down. he comes from a family who makes $20 million a year. that guy.derstand as far as the swastika, the fecal matter in the bathroom, there's been no evidence that that actually happened. read, they cannot find anyone who is actually seeing it. -- seen it. i think this whole thing started up with the hands up, don't shoot. that was a lie. when lies are perpetuated, this is what happens. again, michael sam, the football player went to missouri, this college. racial he never met with

discrimination. so i don't know. i think it is a whole hoopla over nothing. the headline from cny central.com. ithaca college appoints diversity officer amidst controversy over racism on campus. shawn, nashville, tennessee, independent. caller: it is just amazing how, canto say white,s, how they overlook a whole history. aesar when they went to egypt. want to talk about lies and racism? it exists. whether you want to bear your head to it, then you be ignorant thoset, and good luck to students in all the black college football players to

protest. hit them where the money hurts. host: guy in glen bernie, maryland, in the suburbs of washington. democrat, guy, you are on the "washington journal." caller: yeah, i mean, it's hard for everybody to assume they have an opinion about what someone else goes through. until you have walked that individual shoes, you're only seeing from the outside. you do not know what that person goes through. we want to solve this race issue, when people begin to see people as people and not a color of people, then things will change. but until that happens, a lot of the what color you are, that stuff should not even matter. ourou want to be fair in justice system, we are supposed to be not having, we don't see race, and we do not see gender.

then let the justice system truly be blind to color and judge and make their opinions based on the facts. host: guy, what do you think about the appointing of a diversity officer at ithaca college or the call for more cultural centers or the hiring of more african-american professors at the university of missouri? caller: that could be a double standard. on one hand, if you hire afro-americans for certain jobs, that individual will be put in a tough situation. if he shows too much fairness, then he is not going -- not doing his job. if he does not show enough fairness, he is criticized. it reminds me of what a couple of comments i heard about the president, that he had not done enough for black people. can you imagine if he got in office and he started doing things that pertain to the black people? then he would've been called,

favoritism. so that is a rough job to have. but if it is fair across the board, can't nobody complained. host: 202, the area code. 748-8001 for republicans, 748-8002 for independents. college students we want to hear from you as well. 202-748-8003. our next color is an independent from missouri. this is betty. where is new cambria? nortn missouri. i'm an alumn and i have three children who are also an alumn. host: give us your viewpoint of what is going on. caller i'm just very saddened usingomeone isn't

direction to understand the psychology and the sociology of human nature in that we cannot mandate people's hearts. anything needst to be addressed in a proper manner. and when it is forced or when it is done by coercion, all it does is half the opposite of the desired effect. and that concerns me greatly for the overall effect of human rights and maintaining the equality that we have all lived through. i went through the same thing whenever i was in school there. and all the progress that we have made seems to me like it is being diminished or being even way that now it is going

to be worse than it was before. there are ways to do things that people will accept and people will learn to change, but this is taking progress back many years, as i watched things unfold. if you read the comments on social media, and what concerns me is that they have not had any of the people who disagree with this process because of the far ear of saying something that is not politically correct. host: what do you think about the fact that the president ste step down tim will and they appointed an african-american is a new president of the system? -- tim wolfe stepped down? caller: that is a loaded question because i figured that is the way it would be. does that just placate, now we have done this? because it does not matter who

is the president or who is in charge or how many diversity people you have, that does not change the hearts of the people. that does not change the whole tone of the college. i wonder if in reality everyone could look in their heart and say what does the attitude, what the whole environment feel like at the university? i think they would admit it is a lot bigger mess now than it was previously because now everyone is in an uproar and there is no in between of let's meet each other somewhere in the middle. it is like it slid from one direction now to the opposite direction. that does not a cop was anything for relations between human beings. host: that is betty in new cam i

bria, missouri. steve says -- missouri has a problem with racism. david is a republican in st. joseph, missouri. what do you think about that sentiment? caller: it is a bunch of garbage. lie, justasd ed ionon a like a protest in ferguson is still based on a lie. the black lives matter movement is based on a lie. this whole thing. this so-called student was not even a student there that made these comments. he was some kid from out of town that put this stuff on facebook. the swastika picture is years old. been on thehas internet for a while. but it was taken way back in the 1960's. it is the stepping down of the president here of the college, that was the placate. and these people don't even want

be, discuss anything about it because they went to a conventionpeech -- on another campus and spit on th e people there. you're not supposed to criticize them, say, you are wrong about this or that. they are the only ones that are supposed to be able to talk. they are the only ones that should have things their way. it is just like the black lives matter movement. blackon't care uabout police officers or victims of crime. they don't care about any victims of crime, no matter what race. killing cvocate ops. and what for? because they want the criminals, because they are black to get away with what they do. they should not be put in jail. you can't stop them. if you and stop them in any way, you are racist, you must be sent

to jail. you know, it's all based on a budget lies -- bunch of lies. so the anarchists and other races of different color can have their way. host: that is david in st. joseph, missouri. wayne in richmond, virginia. democrat. caller: i'm glad i got on after this crazy guy just talked. i'm not going to say any names but i'm going to put it to you like this. i am a 55-year-old black man. virginia.richmond, i have been watching c-span all my life. the racism that you see and hear is because of the cell phones and so forth. the new media. it has been going on for years. right now i am being chased around virginia by the police department. the fraternal order of police are a very powerful organization. white people in the south will factffect -- except the

that black people have been disparaged, hurt physically, emotionally for 400 years. they will not even admit slavery happened. they call it different names. it has damaged us. our elites, our black supreme court justice clarence thomas, all our elites, colin powell, they have left the black community. our community, we do not own anything. all the stores are owned by asians are mexicans or someone else. and i'm talking about from norfolk all the way to richmond. virginia is one of the most corrupt police departments and course you have ever wanted to see in her life. host: wayne in richmond, virginia. missouri u has a problem with free speech. why no protest when a white professor calls for "muscle" against an asian student? if you cannot get through on the phone lines, i recommend you go to facebook. a lively conversation going on there.

"the u.s. has a race problem. where are these colleges located? yes, in the u.s. course they will have the same issues. just watch the comments that will appear on this post." josh goes on to say that "colleges are nothing more than microcosms of their communities. if the community has a race issue, the college will more than likely have a race issue as well." rose is calling and from hamilton, ohio honor independent line. you are on "washington journal." do u.s. colleges have a race problem? caller: i think the whole country has a race problem. but what i am calling about is something i think is a true contradiction and that is ben carson. i have seen it several times and i've not heard anyone comment on it. his statement that you think tot i hav ee the right violate your civil rights because you offend me. i think that is a contradiction to what many of the people on the right did when a county she could violate

the civil rights of a gay couple who wanted to get a marriage license which was their constitutional right. and i'd like to hear people, done that because i don't understand how you can take that type of a comment and not. apply it to other issues also as far as being offended at someone and thinking you have the right to violate the civil rights because they offend you. thank you for c-span. i watch it every morning. host: this is from the wall street journal. an adult on campus. we have been wondering all week what heaven to the grown-ups on american university campuses. it appears we have a sighting. mitch daniels, the president of purdue university spoke up wednesday about the chill roosevelt at yale and missouri in a letter to the purdue community --

"two years aog, a student led initiative created the we are purdue statement of values --

host: that is the wall street journal. in.calling democrat, mount pleasant, michigan. you are on the air. thisr: i appreciate opportunity. one of the things that i think is really important about this is that people are calling in and denouncing what happened at the university of missouri. must understand that that university itself, that whole community, the faculty, the students, the football team, all said at the university of missouri was out of control when it comes to the history of diversity. i taught for 40 years at a university. there is racism on every campus. i do not know that everyone has to have a demonstration about it, but obviously, in this case, there was. and the university community itself, even the board of trustees, whatever reason they appointed this new president is because they are trying to address the problem. but the people who are calling in, their racism lays them to three things -- denial,

resistance, and resentment. they resent the fat that black people are in this country. they resent the fact that black people want to have equal rights and be treated with dignity. you can hear it in their voice when they say it. one they call it lies, i did not know what they're talking about it obviously the university community does not think it is elected it is happening all over the country. you give a concrete example of how you saw or experienced racism when you were a college professor? caller: i can give you many examples. there are faculty members who say racist things and classrooms. there are students who call people racist. i can give you thousands of examples. the student newspaper at this university just devoted a whole newspaper to the issue of black students on the campus.

let me give you one concrete example. a young, black student was in a it downtown in the city and like i comes over and says to her, you know what? you are the most beautiful black girl i've ever seen. that is racist! the country is racist. it has always been racist. host: can you explain why you think that is racist? caller: it was an insult to her. she said it was racist. it's racist because why single her out? why didn't you tell a that she's a beautiful black girl? why did you just tell her that she's a beautiful girl? host: that was bob in michigan. this is from yesterday's newspaper "richmond times dispatch." black students take over vcu's president office to demand changes." about 30 activists took over the

president's office thursday morning, demanding among other things an increase in the number of black professors and more cultural competency training on campus. the next call is 10 in beaumont, texas. ken. caller: thank you so much. i appreciate the opportunity could i graduated college and i've worked hard and be very successful. it came through hard work, sweat, and dirt in the fingernails. as i am watching this, there are things going on in this country that is being struck and the similarities between this are extremely important. when you take a look at the entitlement program and rewriting history, when you take a look at what is going on with the issues in the newspapers, it is unbelievable. the analogies that i see are very similar to what was done by adolf hitler's rise to power in

.ermany by using ethnic racism i hate to say this, but the support of stroke from the white house and a lot of folks are concerned that there are issues to create a race war. i know those are harsh words to say, but it is totally about tearing everything down and rebuilding it. the average american citizen has no concept of what is going on in their not paying attention to it. they need to open their eyes and go to the ballot box in the election and bring this country back to where it needs to be in the center and not swinging either right or left. country. fantastic i've had the opportunity to travel a lot around the world. in most places, you would see the police come out in countries and open up with machine guns and killing people, not allowing this to happen. these guys are really, really taken this to the absurdity and driving it down people's throats and it's all based on a lie.

i'm sorry. i think it average person that really has had enough and is ready to step up and speak out. host: this is "the new york times" this morning. the head of the university miseries -- of missouri's chapter of libertarians overheard a conversation recently for stints over -- for students signing up to support rand paul's privacy. came onto the plaza shouting their message through a megaphone. when he complained to his friends about the activist, one of the demonstrators overheard him and told them to take their white privilege and leave. mr. parrish said, a loud argument ensued. "you can't just have one side of said mr.rsation," parrish, a 21-year-old white senior on wednesday who erected

a free speech wall on campus or people to write there opinions. me they areple tell afraid to express their opinion because they are afraid they will be criticized for davis calling in from pearl city, hawaii on the democrats line. you're on "washington journal." caller: i three points. first of all, i'm a 10 year veteran of the u.s. army. i've noticed that on fox news that are always pushing a narrative that democrats are nothing. don't even talk to them. they cannot say nothing good about a democrat. right wingve whit media pushing this all day, people can't help but start thinking that way and that help fuels racism. mayoronight, i heard the of new york -- i don't remember his name, but he said something good about our attorney general. hannity almost lost his mind.

can't you just say something good about a democrat sometimes? that's what i think is helping fuel all of this racism because it does exist. almost scared to call c-span anymore because i know we do not live in a free country no more. they are tapping your phones and stuff you anyway, that is all i have to say. janice in maryland. caller: how are you? commentsning to the and i'm just kind of sad today listening to some of the comments. i just want to say something quickly, peter. existed andlways always existed at college campuses ever since they allowed minorities in more predominantly white schools. in the late 1960's, my father went to a predominantly white college and it started with the

name-calling, the racist names, and then it is collated -- escalated to wear his life was and some kids on campus try to actually hang him one night. thank god he got away. he had to actually transfer to another school. for his lifefraid he was. racism has always existed. in the early 1990's, my husband went to a predominantly white school. once again, his life was threatened. it escalates. it always escalates. it starts slow and then escalates. this thing of, don't worry about it or just ignore it, that does not work. if you see in justice, you should always speak out. thank you, peter. have a good day. host: what was your college

experience like? caller: i went to a historically black college. i did not really have that experience. but i did see actually some gay students that were there and they were targeted. againsts discrimination some gay students that were there. that is wrong as well. when a person's fees --crimination or -- sees whenever a person sees dissemination, they should speak out against it. it's wrong, it's wrong is wrong. thank you, peter. host: missouri releases photos of swastika and previously unreported racial slurs. in response to a public records request filed earlier this week by "the federalist," the university of

missouri's custodian of records released pictures today of the vandalism incident, reports that would shock the campus and sparked protests, which led to the resignation of the university's top two administrators. thepictures released by university show a swastika drawn on the wall of a unisex bathroom stall on the third floor of gateway hall, the university dormitory. according to an accompanying incident report which was also provided pursuant to a public photos wereest, taken by dormitory advisors and police officers. a heavily redacted police -- police detailing report detailing the incident was provided to a handful of media outlets on wednesday. post"om "the washington this morning, howard university campus on alert after threat to howard university circulated on social media wednesday night

with the author saying that anyone on the historically black university's campus after 10:00 a.m. thursday would be the first to go and closing with "after all, it's not murder if they're black." photo ofge included a tim walz, the president of the university of missouri system who is forced resigned monday, after escalating protests over racial and other biased issues on campus. the threat to howard, which is in the district of columbia, said that "good people like this guy have to suffer for it" when black people complain. on thursday, howard released this statement -- "we are aware of the threat weighed against the university and its students and we are working with campus, local, and federal law enforcement on this serious matter. this is an ongoing investigation. an abundance of caution, the university has increased security on campus and at area metro stations.

we strongly encourage the campus community and our neighbors to stay vigilant and report any suspicious activity. " many students and parents were upset the university was not locked down. this was in "the washington post" this morning. lc is in salivary. caller: there is one way to solve all these problems. every black football player should transfer -- not next year, this year. with this playoff, millions of dollars are at stake. transfer the black colleges and let us see how much they will , $4 million ores $5 million, to coach. what will they have to coach? that will solve the problem right there. playeru are a d-football and you go play football, and you're a plus daughter or son has to get affirmative action to the schools, something is wrong. that is all we have to do.

just pack up your stuff and leave the football field and transfer it to a black college. see how long that will last. i will guarantee you it will be solved overnight. thank you. host: robert, a republican in arlington heights, illinois. you are on "the washington journal." do u.s. colleges in your view have a race problem? caller: absolutely. i think they do. a lot of it is economics or what have you, but i believe those kids protesting all that need to worry about getting jobs. they need to focus on jobs. that is why they want to improve their situation. they are putting it in a lot of effort to protest and all that. some of their points are valid and some points are quite not.

kids are trying to cause problems at this university instead of proceeding with their academics. the whole reason they are there is to get better jobs. i do not know how this is being productive in regards to improving their future. it is amazing to me that all of this is being condoned by the regards toin contracts. everything is about contracts and money, dividing people, with the media on the right and left, and on both sides as a way and means of contracts. you know this if you follow politics. this is being forced by the media, trying to divide people. that is all i have to say. take you very much. tweeted out sanders on listening to the black on campus conversation -- "it is time to address structural racism on college campuses."

he got 5600 retweets. trumpill" newspaper says protests are disgusting. the people who resigned are weak and ineffective people. when they resign, they set something it's a motion that will be a disaster for the next long. iod of time. christie is warning to black lives matter "don't call me for a meeting." he says he has zero interest in meeting with people from the black lives matter meeting. he says i want them to understand "don't call me for a meeting." you are not getting one. i think all lives matter in a town hall in iowa. joe is in iowa. show, we are listening to what you have to say. caller: good morning. i do not get why people are upset about racism.

we still have racism. we always did have racism. this is not the first time it happened. you know it for yourself, sir. this is not the first time. every time a black person complains about something that not different from what happened to you all. us from are stopping getting our rights and stuff, it was a ok. all?: who is y' caller: we just want our right to live like human beings. it is about having a life just like you. and everybody else in this world. we have been oppressed for 400 years. it is time for us to be considered as human beings like y'all. host: that is joe in louisiana and this is kevin in virginia on

the republican line. caller: good morning and thank you for taking my call. s havest three caller encapsulated everything i think about this whole event. listen, i am a white child of the 1960's and never oppressed anybody in my life. i've no idea of what that man is talking about could the guy from georgia wants to take the black football players and move them to black colleges. they keep naming the labels. if i'm white and i hear what he said, that is racist. that implies that white kids cannot play football. do not tell tom brady that. do not tell julian edelman that could do not tell half league that they cannot play football for until it stopped across the board, take the labels off. the white colleges, no black colleges, just make them colleges. just make us americans and not white or black americans. until everyone is willing to bury the hatchet, nothing ends and it just gets worse and we will have a race war. host: three resignations from

congress -- or i should say that three people are declaring they are not running for reelection to congress for first off is cynthia loomis, a republican from wyoming, a four-time member of congress. she said it is not a career and she was a member of the freedom caucus. non-interestg his isrunning again representative ruben hinojosa, and democrat of texas. and finally, sam farr a democrat from california also has announced that he is not running for reelection. he says he is 75 years old and it is time for somebody else to take that position. paul is in california. go ahead. there aredo think racists on college campuses. i mean, racism. the problem with the republicans

is that they are saying all those demonstrators are attacking free speech. in actuality, the republican candidates for president have all attacked the rights of students to have free speech. thesey are accusing people of attacking free speech when in actuality it is the republicans who are attacking free speech. once again, if you want to know what the republicans are doing, just ask what they are accusing other people doing. host: thanks to everybody for calling in. we have a couple segments coming up on "washington journal yuriko we have an open phone segment at the end of this morning show. if you want to come back to this issue, you can do it there or join the conversation on our facebook page. quite likely going on there at facebook.com/c-span. ising up in just a minute harvard university law professor lawrence lessig, who also ran for president on the issue of

campaign finance reform. after that, there is a new book out by michelle malkin called how high-tech billionaires and bipartisan beltway craft weasels are screwing america's best and workers." they will be taking your calls. this is what happened at the white house yesterday. this is retired army grobergflorent receiving a medal of honor. [video clip] >> he led and afghanistan national army brigade commander. as he approached the provincial governor's compound, captain grover observed an individual walking closer to the formation. all he made an abrupt turn toward the formation, he noticed an abnormal bulge underneath the individuals clothing, selfishly placing himself in front of one of the agape and this. he rushed forward, using his

body to push the suspect away from the formation. amultaneously, he ordered number of never of security detail to assist with removing the suspect. at this time, he confirmed the bolt of the suicide vest and with complete disregard for his life, he began with the assistance of the other member of security detail and physically pushed the suicide bomber away from the formation. after that, the suicide bomber detonated his vest, killing four members of the formation and wounding numerous others. the blast of the first suicide bomb caused the suicide vest of the previously un-recognize suicide bomber to detonate in the formation. with the media action, he pushed away the suicide bomber and it significantly minimize the affect of the suicide bombers attack on the formation, saving the lives of his comrades and several senior leaders. his extraordinary heroism and selflessness above and beyond the call duty at the risk of his life are keeping with the

highest tradition of the military service and reflect a great credit upon himself and the fourth infantry were great -- brigade combat team and the united states army. [applause] announcer: "washington journal" continues. host: joining us on "washington journal" is lawrence lessig, a professor at the harvard law school and former democratic presidential candidate as well. before we get into your issue of campaign finance reform, you probably heard the first segment this morning talking about the issue of race on college campuses.

you teach at harvard. what is your take of what is going on it happening at the university of missouri? guest: i think it is a of the systemic inequality institutionalized that has spread throughout our society. my campaign was targeting a very specific substantiation of that in the way that we have allowed representative democracy to become radically unequal. there is no equality in our representative democracy and that manifests itself throughout our political and social system. i think this is the critical issue that we have to find a way to rally political support to a firm the equality of citizens, which has manifested the inequality throughout our society. host: how and why to do run for president -- did you run for president? guest: i think we have at the core of our democracy a failed institution, the institution to the right over there, congress

. noled in the sense that it longer represents the people and it's no longer representative because of the way that we fund campaigns and the way of political generator mandrake -- gerrymandering creates radical inequality and polarization inside of the house. the system that we have allowed not aelop has produced democracy, not even a government that can function. my concern was that, even though candidates of my party were talking about the influence of money in politics, nobody was talking about how we could fix this crippled and corrupted congress. and that we needed to fix it first if we had any chance to do the things they were talking about. what i wanted to do in the spring of this improbable campaign was to come and a very short time, get to the level that would allow me to be in those debates. in those debates, make this issue the central issue that the democrat party would see. host: campaign finance reform.

guest: that is the way it was framed and that means i did not do a good job. i care about the fact that we do not have her present of democracy. the way that we fund campaigns is a critical part of why we do not have a representative democracy. the idea that 158 families have given half of the money that has been contributed in this political cycle so far is a measure of inequality and unrepresentative nests in our political system. it is not just that. it is also the way that we allocate power in the house of representatives. it is the way that we suppress the ability of people to vote through voter i.d. systems. it is also the way in which we no longer live up to the standard of a representative democracy that respects the equality of citizens. host: at what point did this inequality occur? was it written in the constitution or the last 20 years? historyo, america has a of striving for equality in so many dimensions, but what is so

striking is that the framers of our constitution were obviously not aware of the needs for racial inequality. they certainly did not even understand the need for sexy quality. they would not even have known what sexual orientation equality was. the framers of our constitution were very sensitive to the basic equality of citizens. when matters to describe the government that the constitution would create, we would have a congress that would be "dependent on the people alone." describing that exquisite dependence on the people, he said other people, he meant "not the rich more than the poor." their consumption of the republic and representative democracy they were creating is that it would have a basic equality of citizenship. we have allowed to happen -- and primarily in the last 20 years -- is the evolution of all sorts of inequality in the basic way

in which our government functions. the consequence of that is a corrupted and crippled institution of congress. we have all these presidential candidates running for president promising the moon as if we lived in a dictatorship where the president just got to say, yeah, we're going to have a $15 minimum wage and single-payer health care will be passed. we will take on the banks and break them up. what you know and what we know is that we do not get change unless we get congress to enact it. we will not get congress to as congress isg focused obsessively as they are right now i'm what they need to do to raise the money they need to get back into power or so long as they come from these incredibly polarized gerrymandered districts, which forced them to be sensitive to the extremes in our political system as opposed to representative of the average american. host: why were you not allowed to participate in the democratic debates? guest: i do not know.

we launched our campaign against a background of a promised by the chair of the democratic national committee that the rules for getting into the bates -- the debates were 1% and three national polls six weeks before the debate. we were told those rules repeatedly were not going to change. the firstmake that in debate. the pollsters would not include my name in the polls. they ran a piece of how they included the names of the polls that i would've qualified. fine, i did not make the first debate. we got to the second debate and it was pretty clear that we were going to qualify. a monmouth poll came out at 1%. nbc had a poll at 1%. quinn a pack had a poll at 1%. the three that would've counted all have me at 1%. before id of the week withdrew, the democratic national committee contacted our campaign to say it was not three polls within six weeks. it was three walls at least six weeks before the debate, which

meant i would not have qualified. when i said i cannot have run because of this change, there was all sorts of outrage because of that. cbs modify the rule again and said it was not 1% in three 1%ls, it was greater than in three polls. the goalposts were moved. had they not been moved, i would not be here in washington today. i would be in iowa today preparing for the debate tomorrow. host: our guest is lawrence lessig, professor of law at harvard and former democratic presence of candidate. the numbers are going to be up on the screen if you want to participate in this conversation about campaign on its reform. it is about what he calls inequality in our political system and in representation and some of the other issues in the political arena. let us begin with a call from jack in maryland on the democrats line. go ahead. caller: good morning. thank you for the effort of the guest.

what a noble idea to get the money out of politics. it could just be doing so much good elsewhere. , in thethat as well as backdrop of things, so much that is wrong with the government hinges on the majority versus the minority and the shortsightedness of things. it seeks an impartial rules committee that says eight years from now when we do not know who is going to be in power, who is going to have this way, let us write a set of rules that would be fair and get rid of things like unrelated amendments to bills, forcing thousand page bills through in one or two days, to filibuster if something passes one house and it's not even brought to a vote in another house. it can be so fair. and a leanne wood look at the system, especially -- in a an a leanne wood look of a

system where there's so much money influencing officials. host: got your point. guest: i think the point about short-term is really important. this is a city where elections are basically every two years. that is what defines the control of congress. what has happened is that campaign time has evolved from basically six months before the election to 24/7 from one election to the next. no longer is there actually a time when congress gets the govern perpetually. congress is getting to run for reelection. they are in this mode, this constant, permanent war mode where to raise money they spend all their time calling donors. the estimates at the academy say it's anywhere between 30% and 70% of their time raising money. when they are raising money like that, what they're doing is

calling out the other side as being the devil. what you spent all your time referring to the other side as the devil, it is hard to turn around and work with those people to get anything done. i think the critical thing that we have got to begin to focus on and your idea of let us set the rules for eight years down the road is how do we begin to get people who can think about what makes sense for america rather than what makes sense for my party to get control of congress in the next two years? host: the sea of tranquility tweets into you "in history, when has that ever been a equality? equality is only achieved with a planet of clients. difference is the beauty of life." that is a tweet. if you cannot get through on the phone lines and you want to tweet, at c-span wj is the twitter address. to commentuld love on that. it's a really important distinction. when i'm talking about equality,

i'm talking about equality of citizens. that idea is different from the idea that we are equal in our abilities, equal in our wealth, equal inour prospects, absolute opportunity. we have all sorts of inequality in society and some of that inequality we should celebrate. we should celebrate the inequality that comes from hard work. that is all fine. our ideal, the ideal of her present of democracy is the ideal of the quality of citizens. people should be equal before the law. people should be treated equally. in my view, i'm obsessed with the quality not because dusty equality because i'm inegalitarian could i believe in it and i think it is important. the reason i care about equality is that the corruption we have in our system right now is the product of the inequality in our system right now. a we could create representative democracy again, one where congress was not obsessed the tiniest fraction of the 1% cared about, the funders

of their campaigns, we could begin to have a government that could work again. i care about equality because you quality is the cure for the disease of our government and the disease of our government is the cronyism that comes with the corruption of this political system. host: eric is calling in from arizona on our independent line. what would you like to ask lawrence lessig? caller: i've a question in a couple of comments. ae question is -- this is not democracy. it is a constitutional republic. if you so worried about the individual, that is why the forebears native -- named it a constitutional republic. i'm curious about what he think the benjamin franklin. thank you. guest: i borrowed benjamin franklin's glasses. admirer of frankel could let us tear up this issue of democracy versus republican

the framers gave us a republic. they gave us a representative democracy. it is one kind of democracy like a red apple is one kind of apple. when people refer to america as a democracy, they should not leave that america is a direct democracy could i think would be a disaster to have a direct democracy. i believe in a representative democracy. and i say we do not have the democracy the framers intended, i mean that we do not have a representative democracy. in this democracy, citizens are not equal. they are not equal in the 345 districts in the house where seats are saved seats where the majority party basically controls that seat whether it is a democrat or republican seat. 89 million americans have no effective representation in those districts because they know that their views could never matter to the representatives the cosa happened to be from the minority party. the political gerrymandering creates one dimension of this

inequality and the way that we raise campaign funds is another. these are inequalities that means we do not have a representative democracy, which means we do not have a republic anymore. that is why my book is titled "republic lost." host: this book is brand-new? guest: it first came out in 2011 and i rewrote 70% of it that just came out last month. host: still the same name? guest: it is the corruption of equality the 2016 edition. host: john on a republican line. caller: mr. lessig, my question to you is how are we going to stop this knowing that the obama administration stop the keystone pipeline, not knowing that warned gave millions and millions of dollars toward the administration? called therailroad santa fe railroad that comes from canada all the way down to texas. to that oil is being pushed the railroad. that is why the keystone pipeline was stopped.

there are other congressmen in washington that are taking money from terrorist groups. there is one terrorist group in pennsylvania. the only reason i know that is because they grew up not too far from that area. how are you going to stop the corruption that is getting worse and worse throughout the united states and throughout washington itself? guest: it's a great question because it brings out exactly the problem with the current system that we have got right now. right now whenever you see a decision you disagree with, the first thing we run to is that they must have made that decision because of the money. i do not and know exactly why a obama made the decision that he did about the keystone pipeline. fair toit is completely point out that whatever financial interest might have benefited the democrats when he made that decision. the same thing the other way around. the point is that we have a system where we have no reason

to believe that the decisions are being made in the interest of america as a whole. we have every reason to believe that the decisions are being made to benefit the funders that is exactly what donald trump's point was in the second republican debate when he stood up and said i own all the people and i own you people because i've given you money and i know you will return the favor in exchange. he told us that the system is like as if we needed donald trump to tell us that. the point is that we all believe that this government is corrupted. these politicians are bought. until we change the way that we fund campaigns, that believe will not change. if that belief does not change, then whatever government does, we have no reason to get engaged democratically to respond to it. we just sit back and are cynical way on a couch and say that is just politicians behaving the way politicians always behave. host: are any of the candidates speaking to you as far as the issues go? is bernie sanders out there? democratsryone at the

-- hillary, burning, and martin o'malley -- have on their websites and in their policy which ificies, enacted, would address this problem could the problem is not that they do not believe in the policies. the problem is that they are not out there explaining to the american people this is what we have to do first. it is just not credible to talk about breaking up the banks when wall street and the financial industry is the number one conservator to congressional campaigns. times"the new york reviewed the health care proposals of different candidates and talk about bernie sanders's single-payer health care system, they were so derisive of what this proposal was that they were not given a paragraph's consideration. not because it was a bad idea, but it was industry opposition that would be so overwhelming that would never have any chance of getting anywhere. if that is true, why does industry opposition matter so much? it only matters because of the money industry puts into the

system. so until we find a way to address that fundamental corruption, we cannot begin to do the things that democrats are talking about. we democrats are the party of yes in this debate. we are trying to bring about changes. if you want to keep the status quo and things not to be reformed at all, this is a pretty good system for producing that because stalemate and veto is the default way the system works. host: lawrence lessig interned with both -- or was a clerk i should say with both justice scalia and with richard pozen and the seventh district in a graduate of the university of chicago. some would say those are rather conservative rituals. guest: they are. i had the honor of working for pozen are and scalia as their liberal representatives. scalia at the time would have a

liberal clerk. everyone else would beat up on. i was the person in the chamber charged with making the argument from the other side. the great thing about clerking at the supreme court though is percent to 70% of those cases are unanimous decisions. most of it has no political flavor at all. most end up with the right answer. host: do the other justices did that? do they also look for an opposing view? guest: when i clerk, it was a rare thing for a judge to do that. i'm not sure what justice scalia's current practices. most of the other chambers were unified in their positions. host: we have this tweet from dfw librarian. sner. know judge po please comment on his recent doubts that 14 commitment really conveys birthright citizenship." guest: there is no doubt my mind that it conveys birthright

citizenship. ithink there's no doubt that is a completely destructive debate to be having right now. in my view, america is filled with americans who deserve to be citizens and we ought to be talking about the fastest way that we can move the hard-working americans in society to becoming citizens. birthright is one way. i think we have to talk about other ways, too. host: tim is in ohio, a democrat. caller: good morning. the citizenss united decision of the supreme court is the law of the land. paying --all be shouldn't we all be paying off of the same tax schedule corporations and individuals the same? i will wait for my answer. thank you. guest: it is a great question. it brings out the fundamental protest in american history,

which is no taxation without representation. that was the original birth of the tea party in boston, of course. that was the protest against the british tea tax. principle, you might say, in a world where so much corporate money is driving political decisions, should produce a response for citizens to say why should i be paying taxes and a system where i am not fairly representated? indeed, some conservatives in the reform movement, a guy named bush's pater, george ethics are, and now professor of law at minnesota, has proposed a system to change the way that campaigns are funded, giving everybody a $200 voucher to fund campaigns. the name of the proposal is no taxation without representation act. his basic argument is that in this system, representatives are

responding to their funders of campaigns. so long as american citizens are not the funders of campaigns, we will not be represented. the only way that we could be represented is if we were funders of campaigns and we should not have to pay taxes until we are represented. in austin,ard is an o texas. you are armed with lawrence lessig. retired history teacher. what bothers me right now is we no longer have a government of and by and for the people. it is for the corporations. the people we are copying are the people in 1930's in germany that set up a system very similar to ours now for the corporations ran that country. they started killing off the retarded people. innow put mentally ill

prisons. they lived off of whatever they could. they were hungry. they did them under. and then they came after the jews. that the christian people of the united states are starting to get their christianity and direction of hate towards others. host: that is rich in austin. any comment for him? guest: we need historians in this debate because it is important to remember that what we look back as fascism had really too important strands in it. one part is the racism that eventually manifested itself into the holocaust. as richard reminds us, many other people were targeted by

fascists as well. the other part of fascism is corporatism and governments were governance was turned over to private corporations. it was a part of fascism that america toyed with as well in the first new deal of the united states. it was a similar model of turning over much of the regulatory structure of the recovery act to private corporations and private unions that would collude to write the rules that would make sense as they saw it for our future. that part of the new deal was struck down by the supreme court rightfully so. we should remember that any time we are tempted to turn government power over to private interests, private interest will overwhelm the government. they will steer government power and direction that will benefit them. that is what is called cronyism. cronyism, i think, is a

perfectly apt way to describe the corruption inside of our government right now. politicians are so dependent on campaign funds that they would do anything they can to make sure that their funders are happy. what that means is that the business model of corporations in america increasingly includes how do we come to washington and get special favors from washington to benefit ourselves so that we could increase our profit margins substantially rather than spending our time figure out how to build a new widget or better product that americans want to buy? that cycle, the economy of influence, that we have allowed to develop is something we have seen historically throughout our past, but it seems we have never learned from that passed and built protections into the system to avoid repeating itself. you seen this call from jonathan bernstein from bloomberg. " lessig never gave anyone reason to believe he belonged in the major candidate category.

he did not have conventional qualifications for the job and made no pretense of interest in being president. there is no reason party should elevate issue activism to the national debate platform." guest: in the democratic party, as in the republican party, there is a fundamental fight about whether insiders should control or whether we should allow outsiders in. of course, the perspective that i wanted to bring to this was not just one issue. ands not like it came in talked about climate change is the most important issue or economic equality is the most important issue. my point was that none of the issues that anybody was talking about had any hope of progress until we address this fundamental issue first. not to say that requires i call out some of the most important and powerful people on the inside, like congress as i've said right here today.

the failed institution in our government is congress. toyou depend on the insiders make that point, it is never going to be made. that's the point. it's never going to be made. so yeah, if we were in a completely well functioning democracy where the system was actually working in people were actually being representative, i would eat and the school that said let us just let the politicians deal with this. let us let the politicians solve the problem. we are in a system where the politicians cannot cure themselves. is ane need in that outsider who steps up and says, here is how we need to change the system . the republicans seem to be open to the idea. i do not like the outsiders on their stage. they have three outsiders who happened to be the leaders in that race right now. i think democrats should be more open to the idea that maybe it is time to bring a principal from outside of this government inside the government to restore it to what everyone intended it to originally be. host: let us follow those

comments with a tweet. " would you consider running for president again?" guest: i'm going to do whatever it takes. i took a pretty substantial risk of it was a one in a million shot. was certain of was that it would be expensive and i would be ridiculed for doing it. a million one out of shot because i knew that i could at least get into those debates that we would have a chance to change the dynamic of this election. what our poll showed us is that the voters, especially democratic voters, care deeply about this issue really for the first time almost since watergate. askings did a poll voters if the next president were certain to do just one thing, just one thing, what should that one thing be? by far the number one issue that democratic voters identified was fixed the way we fund

campaigns. i will do everything i can to make this issue something our government can finally adjusted if that is running again, i would do that in a heartbeat. the thing that i was most surprised about running for president was just happy incredibly rewarding, how incredibly fun it is to have a chance to talk to voters about these issues, whether it is a group of five or 20 or speaking to 100 people. that interaction is the most rewarding thing that i've ever done i would love the chance -- and i love the chance to do that in whatever chance i could. host: is your gofundme still open? guest: the website is still accepting contributions, but it will be closing by the end the month, but yes absolutely. host: jeff, you're on with harvard professor lawrence lessig. caller: i really enjoy your show. i think you have hit the nail on the head, professor.

we have got a lot of and philosophers up there on stage. a lot of them have good ideas, but you're right in the fact that they are all influenced by their funders, by their campaign funding organizations or what have you. think that is what trump's success is here. he is not influenced by those outside entities and he is a businessman. that is what we need in this country. we have some good people running. you have got hillary and even bernie sanders has a couple of good ideas, not many, but a couple i feel. if we took all those ideas and put a good businessman in that position -- host: are you supporting donald trump at this point? caller: i have to because he does not have the outside influence. host: do you like the fact that he is self-funded? caller: i really do.

he might have some personal things that he is trying to put forth, but the fact that he is self-funded is really the way -- there is no big money behind him that is speaking for him. --t: taking the circuit thank you, sir. times" reported 158 families in the u.s. have contributed half of the campaign cash for 2016. clearlyhis point is missed by people inside the beltway here in washington could i think this is exactly why donald trump is so attractive to many people on the right. they look at the system and say that these guys are all bought. when they see somebody they believe is not bought, any people are saying he has got crazy ideas about exporting 11 million people from the united states. i am willing to accept his crazy so longny people think

as we can finally have somebody who is not beholden to this money. i agree that this would be someone who would be in government not worrying about what his funders cared about, but trying to pursue what he thought was the right idea. i do not believe in the things that he wants to push. i think the thing that is most important is to recognize, look, he is right. we have to have a government filled with people who are not dependent on funders to get into government. the solution donald trump has is to elect billionaires. that is the idea that we fought a revolution against. that is the aristocratic idea that we sent back to britain when we said to them that we were not going to have a system of government that they had. i think we need a system where representatives are independent. they're able to do what they think is right according to the views of the voters in the district. on a system where the only people we can elect to governments are billionaires. we need a system where we can

elect ordinary people the government. the only way that we will get that is the politicians have the guts to use words and talk about the change that would make that possible. citizen funded or public funding of elections, which would radically change the influence of these funders inside of our political system now. host: deborah is in richmond, virginia, a democrat. caller: good morning. how are you doing? guest: great. hearingi keep republicans say that we are going to make america great again. supremacy,ve white slavery, and racism ever since george washington, when was america great? thank you. guest: this is a great question. here's what i think is great about america. core idealst its that it has not yet lived up to.

as martin luther king said in his speech at lincoln university june 6, 1961, he said america is a dream and the dream is expressed in the sublime words of the declaration which said all are created equal. that inequality is something that we have not yet achieved. injustice, the great of american history is race inequality for 400 years that we toe been fighting an america establish something that should have been obvious from the beginning -- the equality of all people regardless of race. that is the great injustice in american history tied to the injustice and other racial injustice that is extended against native americans. in the context of that injustice, what we have also thatis an ideal, and ideal we are constantly aspiring to, a dream that king said that is not

yet realized, but that we still will fight to realize. the campaign that i was pushing was an expression of that ideal. i believe that the core value of a representative democracy is equality. i wanted to have a campaign, a rally around the idea of the quality. equality thathe would end the incredible injustice that makes it even necessary to rally around a slogan like lack lives matter. -- black lives matter. the inequality that makes it so the vast majority of americans believe the government doesn't have anything to do with them. these inequalities are completely anathema to this core value at the heart of our constitutional tradition. what we need to do is continue the fight for that core value. that is the greatness that we have the ideal at the heart of who we are.

even if we have not yet come close to representing it in the practices that we have built cou. host: between for you -- "doesn't your campaign reform take away my right to spend whatever i want where i want?" guest: no, it does appear that difference i have been talking about this issue in the way that most progressives talk about this issue. that weew, the solution have the be fighting for is not about restricting anybody's ability to speak. it's about increasing the opportunity of more people to participate in i support, for example, the idea that richard .ainter was talking about we take the first $50 of everybody's taxes and rebate it to them in the form of a voucher , which they can use to fund campaigns. that is not restricting anybody's speech. everybody sensed $50 to the federal treasury. when he returned those $50, you

increase the number of people fundingspeakers in the state of political elections. if you change that dynamic and made it so candidates for congress were worried about what one million people thought rather than what 1000 people thought, you would produce a congress that was much more responsive to the people. ofelieve that the decisions the supreme court that led to the creation of the super pac are mistaken. i do not believe the super pac is constitutionally required in our tradition. i asked a think the supreme court is going to fix that within the next five years. i do not believe it will ultimately be necessary to do more than the core thing that i think we must do tomorrow, which is to change the way the campaigns are funded i radically increasing the number of people who can participate in the funding of campaigns. host: brenda in petersburg, virginia. democrat, you are on the air. caller: good morning, america,

and good morning, world. i have three things on to talk about. mr. lessig is completely correct. i'm a 66-year-old black woman, single-parent, retired schoolteacher, retired nco, who grew up under segregation and jim crow. i was against the vietnam war. i was against the draft. right now, we need to bring back the draft since we are getting ready to go to war. i need to say something. mr. lessig is absolutely right. we do not have a representative government. i taught six great history. -- sixth-grade history. me a book that has a copy of the constitution. -- every time someone

starts talking about the constitution, i open the book to see what they are talking about could the people always talking about the constitution have never read the constitution or anything in it. with the black lives matter movement, i told you how i grew up. black lives do matter. black lives matter. worldy father, who was a war ii veteran, came home, he was not allowed to participate in the g.i. bill to buy the house that he wanted to buy. therefore a generation later we still do not have that wealth and that house. every time i write to my congressman about an issue when thanks, send me money. i never hear anything else from them. send me money. host: we are going to have to leave your comments there and get a response. guest: i have to return the favor and say i think the point she is making is absolutely right.

something we have to remember as americans, we have failed to achieve the very core ideal of america and no part of america has suffered this more than african-americans. there are 1000 ways in which we have made it hard or african-americans to be equal members of the society. they are the 1000 remedies that we must immediately undertake. the way to get there is to remind america of this core value, this core principle that we ought to celebrate. from the very beginning of our republic, the value of equality with the central idea. my colleague at harvard, a woman named danielle allen, an african-american theorist wrote a fantastic book. which he argued is that the core value of the declaration of independence is the value of equality. that value ought to be our constant charge.

how do we achieve it? because if we achieve it we would have a government that was representative, and if we had a government that was are presented of it would not be the insane, dysfunctional, crippled institution that we see in washington right now. host: bill from texas, democrat, you are the last caller. caller: i want to ask the guest -- he started out with the congress campaign six months in and --he election and continue to campaign. i was in the army for 22 years, saw a blank check from the government of basically take over my life i was on call 24/7, 360 branded the year. 365 days the year.

how can these guys just were cap just work half a year and still say that they are working for the people? host: ok. we got the idea. lawrence lessig? guest: thank you for your credit -- service. something really incredible to even focus. i think that is exactly the question. it is astonishing to me that people are not outraged at the idea that they spend as much time as they do raising money to get back in congress. if any of us on our job spent 30% to 70% of our time not doing the work of our job and doing work to enrich ourselves we would be fired on day one. but we have that system in washington right now, and what we have got to do is understand why that is a corrupted system.

that begins by politicians having the courage to call it for what it is, corruption. call that corruption out and talk about the real solutions. that we areasies going to automatically amend the constitution and somehow that fixes the problem. we have to have the courage to use the words that america needs to hear. change the way campaigns are funded so that they are not dependent on a tiny fraction of the 1% to fund themselves. a tweet, congress should be will hold it to its constituency and not its donors. followed by this, a multitude of interrelated problems. which one would have to be fixed first? money? gerrymandering? guest: i would start with money. if you solve the gerrymandering problem without solving the money problem you just increase the cost of the elections. solve the money problem, solve the gerrymandering problem.

i support the citizen equality act which is now being developed by a new group. it has three parts. one, change the way elections are funded. over two, change the way districts are drawn to the we have a representative congress. and number three, and the way we suppress votes in america so that everyone has an equal freedom to vote. three changes in the citizen equality act would in one fell swoop bring about a representative democracy, something we have been denied for much of our history. host: we have been talking with harvard law professor lawrence lessig, former democratic presidential candidate as well. think you for your time. coming up next, our american companies abusing the guest worker program? michelle malkin and her co-author john miano make that case in their new book "sold out there cap -- "sold out."

that's next. well, baker says to him, i want to be a congressman. i think you are just using this as a stepping stone to the senate. and george h.w. bush says no. i wants to be president. this is 1965. he is 41 years old. he has yet to win a race. but he had a sense of destiny. >> saturday night at telecom

p.m. eastern on c-span two's booktv. a conversation between jon meacham and former president george w. bush about the life of the president's father, george herbert walker bush. also on saturday, the louisiana book festival in baton rouge. with nonfiction author presentations including adult levine and her book "run don't walk." and adam rothman and his book "beyond freedoms reach your coat and sunday night on 9:00 former congressman patrick kennedy shares his personal journey with mental illness and substance abuse. convinced that no one could pick up on the fact . it's 20. i was perspiring, i was furtive and moving around and agitated way. i totally thought no one knew. is interviewed by

democratic representative jim mcdermott from washington state. booktv. television for serious readers. c-span's road to the white house coverage continues today. live from orlando at the republican party of florida sunshine summit. the two-day event brings together presidential candidate along with florida's state and federal elected officials. this morning at 10:30 eastern. the lineup includes florida rubio, texas senator ted cruz, former arkansas governor mike huckabee, former florida governor jeb bush, donald trump, and ben carson. and more from the sunshine summit with former pennsylvania senator rick santorum, louisiana governor bobby kindle kentucky senator rand paul, new jersey governor chris christie, ohio governor john kasich, and carly

fiorina. stay with c-span for campaign 2016. taking you on the road to the white house on tv, on the radio, and on c-span.org or it --.org. >> "washington journal" continues. host: in your new book "sold out ," what happened at disney? guest: workers were funneled into a room. a lot of them assumed that they were going to be a -- rewarded. it was a horror story that no hollywood writer could conjure up. the reality was so much worse than anything they could have imagined. they were informed that they were going to be laid off, but even worse -- and this is something that has been repeated over and over again in american

companies over the last couple of decades. this was like a dirty little open secret of the information technology industry. they were told they were going to be forced to train their cheap foreign replacements from india as a condition of receiving any kind of severance pay. this is not some sort of aberrant outcome of our current immigration policy. it is actually built into the h-1bhat created the specialty worker program. i,n miano, my co-author and the timing ofk -- the book is very fortuitous. i think in some ways profit -- providential. at a time during an election cycle where these issues are finally coming to the four and where there is now a growing ever -- knowledge of this

practice and the devastating impact that these policies are having on the best and brightest workers in america. host: your coworker -- co-author john miano is also with us. guestworker h-1b process work? guest: it is a three-step process. the employer has to make out a labor condition saying that they will pay the so-called prevailing wage and that they will not be violating certain roles. a papersentially shuffling exercise because once it is submitted they are required to be approved as long as the form is filled out correctly. when that is approved you can get it automatically approved -- they submit the actual petition. and if they approve it then they go to the state department to get the actual visa.

host: how many workers are coming to the u.s. and where are they going? 120,000here are about to 130000 and year. captainthought it was 65,000. guest: it's a little misleading. ,here is a base cap a 65,000 and an additional cap of 20,000. it is unlimited for academia and research. if reason you do it that way you can say there has been a cap for all these years. in reality the visas have more than doubled since the 1990's. , the in the book you write manufacturing of a crisis. there is no stem shortage. stem of course being science, technology, engineering, and math. guest: this is one of the

of the entires debate over the last 25 years. this month actually marks the 25th anniversary of the creation of the h-1b program. all along there has been this underlying premise on the part of both big business and big government cheerleaders for the program that we need to bring in these -- we need to have this huge pipeline and it needs to be increased. in some cases many of these weasels in washington who cut all the back room deals to do things like what john says unlimited number of people coming in under the h-1b program who are hired by academics and research institutions. presumptionthis that there are not enough

american high skilled workers doing this job. we traced the history of a lot of the advocacy research. much of it was born inside the government battles -- that will -- bowels to post your -- bolster this claim that there were not enough legal residents already here to fill these jobs. it is not true. the fact is that outside the d.c. front groups of lobbyists that masquerade by these patriotic names -- we have a chapter in the book called "legion of doom." we catalog ready for the coming from, where the money is coming from, and we highlight a lot of the shoddy research they are doing. but when you look at independent havemics, people who don't

a vested interest, people who are nonpartisan. it is clear from all the economic evidence -- just looking at wages in this country in these particular sectors, that there is no shortage. in fact we had a lot of data come in over the last couple of years that indicated that we have gotten millions, millions of americans who have these so-called degrees who are not able to find work because they are underpriced by these visa holders. are going tobers be up on the screen. if you would like to debate in the conversation. michelle malkin and john miano, howuthors of "sold out," big business and big government weasels are screwing americans out of jobs. what is a crap weasel? guest: it represents his

creature in washington. an official who says one thing to get elected and then turns around and not just does another thing but completely betrays the base of voters who got them there in the first place. well, that pretty much covers 99.99% of washington. upt: how they cooked comprehensive immigration reform. everyone in washington pretends to agree america's immigration system is broken and needs to be fixed. john miano? guest: it's interesting you mention it, because somehow we have been sold that this deal would actually reform the immigration system. in reality copper reform did not reform anything. that is essentially how washington works. this distracted public by creating a bill that does not reform immigration, and calling it immigration reform. there is actually nothing there to reform immigration. one of the obvious examples of

this is the building created the current immigration system in 1952 was 120 pages long. from 2013ive reform was 1198 pages. on top of198 pages the 120 pages and on top of everything added over the decades. host: ok. i have two articles here that i want to push back just a little and get your views as an immigration lawyer and someone who is with the center for immigration studies. bucking the method that immigration harm to america. this was put out by several groups. facebook.by the consumer electronic association, etc.. myth.

lowering the number of immigrants would free jobs for american workers. , immigration helps create jobs for american workers. guest: where's the evidence? anyone can just say that. immigration itself does not create a job. to be other factors are it -- factors. host: which are? guest: what is the type of immigrants? if you import someone who is a panhandler as an immigrant that person is not going to create a job. youe have to be certain -- have to qualify more than just immigrant creates jobs. guest: the other thing i think is important in the book, one of my core missions as a journalist over the last 25 years is to help people synthesize information. the synergy that john and i had in writing this book came from

my journalism background and being able to tell stories, and john, with his analytical skills and of course the depth of knowledge that he has about how -- about the immigration reform sausage making in this town. part of that entire kabuki theater involves these advocacy groups that pose as neutral number crunchers. we have what i think is a very important and enlightening section on one of these very prominent groups. it is the partnership for a new with notin conjunction just -- from my perspective as a conservative journalist, people on the left, but people on the so-called right. big business interests. conservative think tanks. they just pull the figures out and then have them

regurgitated by bill gates or mark dr. berg and they mark -- mark zuckerberg. not only do they claim there is a tech worker shortage but they actually claim that h-1b magically create some random multiplier of jobs. 10, 20, 50 times. he really takes just a basic knowledge of things like regression analysis. i know your eyes are glazing over, but it is important to understand how they cook the books. host: some of these groups names include compete america, counsel for global immigration, information technology industry council, things like that. left-ish side of the spectrum is the american immigration counsel, and they say -- before the employer can fire a -- file a petition with immigration service, the

employer must attempt -- must attest that the employer it meant -- employment of a foreign worker will not adversely affect the wages of american workers. guest: they are quoting a different statute. the government claims that does not apply, and in fact they said -- when they make those as a stations the department of labor is required to approve them. of thethis is just part entire smokescreen that goes on, because they assume that your average ordinary american does not have time and is not interested in knowing the distinctions between a labor certification application and a labor condition application. it is part of the big fat lie.

we debunk all of these myths in the chapter on all the talking points you always hear. somehow american workers are protected not only with regard to displacement problems but with recruitment conditions as well. thesens out that many of things that they claim protect the entire class of american workers only apply to i -- a tiny amount of businesses in this country. for the businesses that they do apply to, you have the lobby in the back room trying to make sure that their special loophole is built into the gang of eight bill and its 6000 pages. host: let's take some calls. michelle malkin and john miano are the cold -- co-authors. stevens calling from phoenix on our democrat line. go ahead. caller: good morning and thank you for c-span. .y question is to both guest

i'm not trying to beat up anybody, but the question is, what is the surprise? it is all about capitalism. capitalism is about gathering market shares. it only seems reasonable to me that in the desire to lower the prices we are going to get the lowest priced labor. good withso agricultural workers. what's the problem? it works so good with down below, why not up above? that theat you see is big business is coming at the american worker from all sides. we have seen it as you are describing. most of public debate is on the low wage. low-wage immigration. in the problems of americans tech industries, they were fired and replaced by foreign workers and it really has not hit the news until recently. guest: everything i would add is

that this comes up a lot. onre are a lot of features the right side of the aisle between the riparian's to join with open borders folks on the left -- this is all in the headlines of the papers today. theink our feeling about h-1b program is that this is not capitalism. this is cronyism. businessesrican using the power of government to rig the game. appendix of the book we reprint the e-mails between google and apple fixing wages. they want to fix wages and they want to fix their pipelines for cheap foreign labor supply that is undercutting americans. host: this headline came from this morning. more cheap workers might come to the u.s..

congress is considering legislation to allow u.s. employers to bring in thousand moores -- thousands more unskilled workers for seasonal jobs that will last as long as 10 months at a time. i know that is not what your , it is not about the h-1b program. but what about the issue of unskilled workers? guest: again, precisely the same problem as the tech workers. the reality is not everybody in the united states has the skill to become a computer programmer, and so there are going to be people who are going to be doing manual labor type jobs. if we are going to do anything about poverty we have to improve the conditions for them. in theory a free market should allow that to happen but congress is not allowing a free market to work by bringing in more foreign labor. we only have 56,000 these v workers for non--- jesus --

isas issued for nonagricultural workers. in the same way that these tech companies are always cackling about a shortage you will also hear that in the agricultural industry as well. guest: i saw an article just recently where the writer was someone $13paying was an absurdly high wage. kerry is in canton, north carolina. republican. is that in raleigh durham area? caller: no it is a national area. my best friend would be so jealous. because i get to talk to you this morning. host: good morning. i have pros and cons on

both side of this. i can listen to the democratic party and the latino groups and they say they are trying to blackmail the country into accepting amnesty. but on the other hand i can see a man from san salvador having to walk 2000 miles because he knows when he gets to this country he has a job. when he looks at our inner where people won't walk across the street to get a job, i can see why he wants to come. i am poor. i grew up taking tobacco, tomatoes, beans on the farm. that is how i worked my way up to get a skilled trade job. . am a transmission mechanic they said the average age of a mechanic today is 46 years old. mizzou and the

average university's out there today and see where the government has failed. not only us but our children. host: we will leave it there and get a response. michelle malkin there is a lot there -- guest: there is a lot there. i would put it this way. as the child of legal immigrants to this country i understand what you are saying about the good -- about america as a beacon. but we are ready have many processes in place to bring people here who have something to contribute, whatever part of the pay scale we are talking about. the fact is that the number one problem in terms of immigration enforcement that this federal government faces is that they are completely overwhelmed. detail.to great deal -- in inspector general reports and every single agency of

immigration enforcement bureaucracy. they are creaking. they cannot even enforce these days ago american worker protections. b1 and theand program selling green cards to the highest bidder, let alone the ongoing program of illegal immigration. not only do we have to fight this compulsion that both parties have -- i think that is one thing that is really distinctive. we go after republicans probably even harder than the democrats. it really does transcend all of these party lines. the inability of the federal government to do with basic duty. everything the one of these immigration programs should put american workers and american citizens first. their public safety, national security, and economic security. host: i want to show some charts

from bloomberg. here is a cluster of skilled foreigners. it says that total employment, 22% in the raleigh-durham north carolina area is for skilled workers, held by h-1b visa holders. it says that most of these folks come from india. you can see that the vast majority of h-1b employees come from india, and then china is next in line. and then who is employing them? maybeare some groups that we have not heard of. it begins with tata consultancy services limited and cognizant tech solutions. the two biggest employers of these h-1b. i want you to address that. we have one more chart? ok.

this is the jobs that the h-1b visa holders are holding. systems analyst, programming, computer related. university education. electrical engineering. tata consultancy, what is that? guest: it is a division of tata which is india's mitsubishi. they are in the business of moving jobs out of the united states to india. so what the h-1b program has done is created the business of moving jobs overseas. wants to do is bring in a few people into the united states and sent 30 jobs overseas. you will see five or six people in the u.s. on an h-1b visa and then there will be about 30 americans who lost their jobs with the rest of the business going to india. william's contra

minneapolis. you are on the air. independent line. caller: thank you. you've really got to make an effort to get more calls. host: you are absolutely correct. caller: ok. i like you. michelle, i don't usually agree with you but i have to agree with you on this. i like to think i live in the h-1b capital of america which is minneapolis. they are all indian. they overstate their visa and they never go home. all they talk about is the but the are hispanics, true illegal immigrants are the people that come over here on h-1b visas and get these high jobs in corporations like best buy and target. i don't think you guys are aware of --

guest: yeah. caller: they overstayed their visas. host: ok. thank you. who wants to answer that? guest: of course in minnesota you have the senator who is the cosponsor of legislation on capitol hill that would greatly expand the number of these h-1b visas. that is themething theme of the introduction of the book. things we find has been flawed in much of the reporting, and it hasn't moved over the years, even the new york times -- which is playing catch up on covering these issues -- treats it as though it is something new, when as though when as we have emphasized, the idea of bringing these people over here, making american workers train them, and then watching them see the

replacements go back to the country -- their home countries carrying all the knowledge that they have gained has happened at disney, harley davidson, it is a massive horror stories. the fact that the collar disagrees with me on most things but that we can come together on this shows you the very interesting fault lines here. it is going to make a lot of people vulnerable. hillary clinton as a senator brought tata to buffalo as part of this government deal. they said they were going to create american jobs. they created 10. meanwhile they were petitioning for 1600 h-1b visas. where is the democratic outrage about that? the party of the workers. host: from the new york times, large companies game h-1b visa program costing u.s. jobs. she says that many of the visas are given out on a lottery to a

small number of global outsourcing companies which has flooded the system with applications, significantly increasing their chances of success. john in virginia, democrat. good morning. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. i just want to say that i live in anginia and i worked area. i am shocked at how many immigrants that are living in this area. we haves to me that seen a lot of young students graduating university, working at costco, and they can't get a job. they have an $80,000 loan on their backs. it really bothers me that when someone tells me that we don't have enough employees we give the job that we are bringing overseas. here's the thing. most of these companies care .bout the money

and so the paying americans $80,000 or $90,000, they would rather pay indians $40,000 so they can save $50,000. most of all -- i don't know if this is true or not. there is a lot of bribery and corruption going on about these evil. the people that they bring in are not qualified. they have to retrain them all over again. when these guys did not get into the system gets what they are going to say? they asked management, can i bring my friend? it is amazing what is going on. host: ok. we got the point. you write about the salary differential. guest: he is correct. theh-1b program allows employer to play -- pay the 17th percent of -- 70th percentile of the median wage. the 50th percentile is what we

would normally call the prevailing wage. i would like to say that he is focused on the indian aspect of this, which is certainly a problem. but the problem with the h-1b problem is not india, it is right over there on capitol hill with americans who are largely european americans. they are the problem, not the indian companies. host: is he right about corruption, is a gaming of the system? caller: this is not even a gaming of the system. the h-1b program is working exactly as it is designed to do. that is one of my issues. i am glad to see the new york times covering this issue but i think my biggest objection to the coverage other than it being new is that it is portrayed as exceptional. this is exactly how congress has set the system of -- set the system up. the only thing not working as it is designed is that the news media is starting to cover it now. host: we are talking with

co-authors of "sold out" about the h-1b worker visa. david is an chicago. i want to thank you so much for writing this book. it is about time the word gets out. i would like you to discuss how inveiglede deals have foreign workers. secondly, discuss the three executive actions that the obama administration wants to do in terms of spouses of h-1b work permits for fast track green cards. if you could do that. and the total number of h-1bs. host: ok, a lot there. what kind of tech work do you do? rkller: i do data center netwo

cloud with some data security. i am making what i was making 20 years ago because of the wage suppression. wages have been flat for tech workers since about 2000. we know there is no shortage. if there was a shortage of tech workers wages would be going up. certainly that is the argument for paying executive high compensation and if that was the case for tech workers wages would be going up like they did in the 90's. host: ok, we got it. ok.t: h-1b is just the tip of the iceberg. there are other ways foreign labor is coming in in this area of technical workers. one of the issues he raised is and that the inside lobbyists are using trade deals as a means to ing foreign labor and. the u.s. is locked into

giving at least 65,000 h-1b underevery year, and now this new transpacific partnership they are also trying to bring in more foreign labor. then -- i'm just going through his list -- the other thing we could is that there are executive actions going on. obama this year started allowing spouses of h-1b workers to work, and a few lobbyists have fought that in the hopes that they can eventually turn h-1b into a two twofer where they can get to spouses to work on a single visa. we have what is called the optional track training program, which is a student visa. in 2008 microsoft came to the department of homeland security dinner party with the idea is using student visas as a means to get around the h-1b quota.

they worked an absolute secrecy to produce the regulations, and the public did not even know that these are being considered until they put them out without notice and comment. essential you had the situation where microsoft were telling them about the regulation. i have been involved with that because we had a court case that got those regulations set aside. the obama administration's response to that was, let's just put out new regulations and let them work even longer. i have hit on several -- i have hit on all the different ways that are being used to admit foreign labor. host: jane is in virginia, a democrat. caller: good morning. i would like to relate to things and get a comment. refugeet one is, i am a from the big blue oval of in dearborn. when i was looking for a new

engineer firm i went to my hr person and all i got was h-1b visa people. i have worked internationally most of my life. in fact i was working in brazil this weekend. so i am far from xena phobic. i went to my hr person and said here in dearborn we are surrounded by universities that are turning out engineers. can we find at least one american. peopleold, h-1b visa work between 9000 and $14,000 cheaper so that is who we hire. the other issue as i know have graduate students who are showing the e-mails from i.t. companies that are literally based within miles of where you guys are sitting. says, come to it work for my i.t. company and i guarantee you will be excepted at one of these two

universities. one of them is also based there. if you look at them they are unaccredited universities. basically what they are doing is using the student visa system as a scam to get around the immigration workers and get i.t. workers in the company. by the way, this i.t. company -- i did a little research. i do policy work, my undergrad is engineering. this company has government contracts. we got the point. of course that is here in the washington suburbs. guest: we have an entire chapter in the book on how the foreign student visa program has been exploited as another one of these alternative channels to bring in all of these cheap foreign students who are then tied to the optional practical training program. i think it is interesting to note that these calls are coming from the democratic lines and the independent line and the

republican line. we really think that we have struck a nerve here, because if all we do is amplify these voices of america's best and brightest -- this is not news to them. what this is is a wake-up call to the beltway, to those crap weasels. i will say it one more time on c-span. talk about those -- illusions. i think that this is one of the key issues that the breakup issue for this presidential campaign michael. it is talking about how the donor class has brought both parties -- thought those parties. the testimony on the ground from workers like this engineer shows two things. not only are these american workers being devastated, but of course all of the h-1b be set workers who are used essentially as indentured servants and are being exploited as well -- we

have a whole chapter on that. perverse practices. they call them names like handcuffing and body shopping, and really sabotaging the original intent of the program. is there any relationship between this book and your earlier book this year which was on innovators and american manufacturers? guest: that is a really good question, and the answer is yes. have been thinking about delving into this issue for a long time. of course my first book in 2002 ," about then illegal immigration aspect. all along i had wanted to get here and it was really providential that the two of us were able to get together on this. when i talked to the head of mag light flashlight, he was such a fierce proponent of american companies hiring american workers. this is an immigrant who came here from termination for the

american dream -- from croatia for the american dream. he knew that the best and brightest were based in southern california. these two books are flip sides of the same coin. host: jenny, springfield, virginia. i am really glad i have a chance to speak to both of you and to the host. please don't cut me off. we just went through an election thee, and the polling -- phone calling from the different candidates. one of the things that was really stressed about how our american students are so under educated and that we really need to compete with india and china. i am talking about the democratic party telling me how our students are not really getting the math education early enough. then they go ahead and say about

-- they can't compete and the work environment because of the lack of education. , because i have children who actually are educated as engineers. what i saw was they are saying that we have to compete. i am like what about the kids who are graduating from top universities in the state of virginia? white and you take your method -- message about how under educated these kids are as they graduate and go into graduate school in degrees in engineering and physics and they can't get jobs. yet you have people who are being brought in. host: we have a lot there on the table. michelle malkin, any response from her -- for her? as trenchant a

commentary as i have ever heard on this entire issue. more trenchant and you will hear from any of these candidates who continue to buy into this mess .- myth of the worker shortage he's companies want to stable green cards to every foreign student visa. even the modern candidates were sounding the same on this, donald trump for the example. he has a terrific immigration reform plan, not only on illegal immigration and the southern border, but also with h-1b. we have seen.led he consulted with someone who we think has their head word on straight. but even donald trump has sort of paid lip service to this american tech worker shortage and talked about the need to import untold numbers of these foreign student. there is another aspect of the education part of this that we

delve into in the donor chapter. you have bill gates wanting to , andthe floodgates to h-1b then on the other side of his tongue talking about how we need common core. common core of course supports the myth that there is an american tech worker shortage. in the meantime what is it really doing? a lot of the independent academics who are behind the scenes here in d.c. where all sayback room deals are cut that all it will do is lower standards, particularly now in math and science. he would take this common core scheme which has had hundreds of millions of dollars put in it, and actually put american students at a disadvantage that they are not at now. host: from your book, clinton donaldion donor and --

trump vaulted to the front of the pack by spotlighting brutal crimes by illegal aliens against americans. but while battling to build a hel on the southern border also found a path to legalization for illegal aliens. in other words, it sounds a lot like the amnesty passed of his rivals. lynn is calling -- linda is calling in from knoxville, democrat. caller: i am another liberal democrat who never thought i would he agree and with -- i would be agreeing with michelle malkin about anything. there was an episode of "the west wing" in the mid to thousands that dealt with h-1b visas. there are so many things here. i am a high-tech worker. these people who are coming in on the visas are victims too.

these people, what they want more than anything is to stay. they have to be here. this makes them right for all kinds of exploitation. the salaries that they are purporting to get, they don't get those salaries. half of that is skimmed off by the agencies they have to go to on the way here. stinky make any kind of about it and don't pay and they never get a chance to pay in her comeback. host: what kind of work you do? caller: i don't really want to tell you. host: you don't have to. don't worry about it. let's get a response about this agency issue. most of these aliens are coming through companies that are in the business of importing workers and taking a cut off the top of the salary. that is not the way the system is supposed to work.

i would likeings to say, we have a liberal democrat here. this is an issue that essentially everyone in america liberals, and yet -- conservatives, moderates all agree that americans should not be replaced by former -- foreign workers. most of the presidential candidates are now support replacing americans with foreign workers. it is shocking. now,: this is in the open and we would like to think that part of it is sort of the "sold out" effect of the open warfare you have between cruz and rubio over issues like this. is rightly attacking rubio, and then of course rubio points out that until recently ted cruz had supported the quintuplets of ntupling oftet -- qui the h-1b visas.

if everyone adopted this last on reforming h-1b, if we could finally produce some kind of real results, not just fake, buty, so-called reform true, comprehensive, pro-american immigration reform immigration enforcement reform we would be pretty happy. host: a tweet, michelle malkin ragging on nasty evil corporations and the left still hates her? and jodi says, michelle malkin you have finally woken up. there are liberals saying the same thing. know?people, you susan is also calling this morning on our independent line. caller: this is a real issue and has been for quite some time.

quite a few people in my family are in engineering, physics, so on. but also this is happening in health care. assistants.rapy there are practices in nashville -- knoxville where all of the physical therapist and aids are all from the philippines. girls two families whose have gotten out of physical therapy school -- which takes a masters degree -- and can't get a job. this is true in so many industries. it is so detrimental to the united states. the h-1b is primarily used in the tech industry, but it is used in all industries as well. as you say, physical therapy is one. doctors, even accountants. the damage is very widespread.

too.: teachers we actually have a section that talks about that. h-1b, it iss about sold on capitol hill as being for these write specialty workers who are entrepreneurial who are going to come here and create new businesses. you will hear this propaganda from h-1b promoters on both sides of the aisle all the time. yet it covers things like supermodels. there is an interesting special interest story behind that too. " is the name of the book, and donald is in south bend, indiana. democrat. caller: i am sitting here watching this and i am just .keptical i have seen you talk a lot of and i don't news

know what to make of all this. primarily why i called is, what do you expect? that is capitalism. you and your friends on fox have been trying to tell us in labor that if a company wants to come in -- if they want to hire someone at low cost -- labor is cost. forget about they are people and everything. they don't care. it is about cost. now that it is happening to people who are working -- and don't get me wrong, you know, we need programmers etc., white-collar jobs. but now that it is happening to hey, welcome to my world. a couple of- things.

we challenge the leaders of the h-1b racket and the funders of it and promoters of it across party lines. i don't agree with everybody at .ox news about everything i know that rupert murdoch doesn't agree with what i am saying, and yet i have gone on as many venues and we have tried to reach out as much as possible. we have addressed the fact that this is not kind of -- any kind of capitalism in the form that i support. i have long been an outspoken critic of the kind of crony deal that we see not only with regard to h-1b but whether it is green cronyism, the cronyism embedded in the health care bill. i think that this is where there are shared interest among so many of the callers that we have already heard from. i understand you are skeptical.

he thinks that i have an agenda. but the fact is as a journalist who has been out of the closet as a conservative or 25 years, you can take my biases and judge them against the evidence in the book. everything. we urge everyone to do their homework. journalist here in washington. all of those campaigns out here that are crusading for the american dream in the american worker. it is important for the functioning of a healthy republic that citizens be informed and this is our educational and evangelical mission. host: this tweet from i love politics, h-1b lies told by ceo's to congress. u.s. workers are not available, not able to do the work, unwilling to take the jobs. that it -- guest: that is a some of the nonsense.

i used to be a computer programmer. right now if you are trying to find a computer programming job it would be really tough. host: why? guest: they simply are not out there and they are not being advertised. occasionally i go online to look for jobs in my area. it is where you find any and the only listings are agencies. you submit a resume and maybe they will submit it to someone else. very few real job that i correctly find. if i was actually a computer programmer it would be really tough. host: dana in california, a republican. caller: yes. your guests have done a really good job of explaining the problem. it is an eye-opening thing for me to know about all of this. but my question is, what is the

solution? is the solution to force companies to raise wages so that they are forced to pay everybody those high wages? would that cut down or help the problem? or is the problem education? what is the problem? what is the solution? host: michelle malkin guest: before you fix the problem you have at the know just how bad it really is. that's the purpose of the book. to really shake people and wake them up to the depth of the problem. and we have our own comprehensive imenforcement reform plan. it's the very, very last section of the book. it takes a comprehensive book at what needs to be done. on many, many levels. i think the immediate thing that the next president should do is put a moratorium on all these programs and reassess how

exactly they are working, who is being hurt. it's hard to do anything with regard to the foreign guest worker rackets when you have 30 million illegal aliens here, 40% of them who are visa overstayers, with the government having no way to track them down and make sure that people who should leave have already left. and then john can address some of the reforms with regard to h-1-b. the problem of dual dual intents is one of them. making sure the prevailing wage is the prevailing wage. guest: the caller is asking what he can do. i said the first thing is be informed. one of the things about doing the book is you could explain things i could not possibly explain here. we talk about analysis to come up with the bogus statistics from the visa jobs. that's one or two college lectures. we could put that in the book and explain to you how these

numbers. get these so from the book, this is a shameless plug, i guess, you can get informed about what's happening and understand the whole scope of the problem. then once you know the problem, vote. find out where your congressman, where your senator stands on these issues. if your senator or congressman support placing -- replacing americans with attorney workers, vote them out. call your congress nman. write your congressman and senators. let them know you don't support replacing americans with foreign workers. same thing with presidential candidates. let rubio and company know, you do not support replacing americans with foreign workers. host: from sold out, quote, by former representative tom davis, on big tech's push to eliminate h-1-b caps all together. quote, this is not a popular bill with the public. it's popular with the c.e.o.s.

jim in ohio on our independent line. last caller for our guest. caller: thank you. good morning to all of you. i never realized how big the problem is. but it's very personal to me. i believe that she's right, michelle, that both the immigration laws and these problems brought out here, they are interrelated. the reason is my wife is an immigrant. she stood in line and she came from korea. we got married. and i had to wait for her for two years to be able to get here. she finally became a citizen and we had two daughters. ne is now -- she was a high up graduate purdue as an engineer and she's 30 and gone back to nursing school because she can't get a job she'd like to have with her degree. my other daughter is an international politics in

journalism. right now she's working on computers because she can't find what she would like to do. i knew there was a problem but i never realized just how bad it is. host: thank you very much for calling. final word from each of you. john? guest: this book describes the problem that essentially everyone can agree on. i hope not just from the intrinsic interest in promoting the book, but this is an issue that's been near and dear to my heart for 20 years. this has been a labor of love to get it out to the public so you can see what has been -- what i have been fighting for 20 years. i hope that you will read it and will join the fight with me. guest: there seems to be a kumbayah moment on c-span to have so many folks call in across party lines who

understand just how daunting this problem is. and i really want to underscore what john said about translating this into votes. that's where the power is here. we tell the story of dave here in virginia who is able to topple eric canter and all the money, much of it coming from big tech propaganda who wanted h-1-b and gang of eight bill. it's extraordinary. we see that as a sign of hope that it can be done. the people as a voice can be heard. just address the caller as the last thing, i think it underscores another thing so important particularly to me, that is the idea we can -- so many of us can unite behind this message that pro-american is not anti-immigrant. host: finally, this tweet from k.q., thank you so much. you transform this democrat midsummer about garage inventors, your earlier book.

no hashtag h 1 b, hashtag american lives matter. thanks for being on the program. guest: thanks for having us. host: 25 minutes left in this work's "washington journal." we talked about a lot of topics. we talked about what's going on in the college campuses. we talked about campaign finance reform, h-1-b visa, immigration issues, politics. you name it. we'll go through the papers and quickly take your calls. there are the numbers. we'll be back in just a minute to keep going. [captions copyright national able satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> american history tv, this

weekend. >> setting out boundaries, political boundaries, state boundaries, community boundaries for the future. and for this territory going forward. >> lectures in history with iowa state university professor, carlton magian on the 1787 northwest ordnance, an act by congress to organize and govern newly acquired territory from ohio to the mississippi river. and our new series, "road to the white house rewind." >> who is on what side? senior citizens against the kids? no, no. i missed. come on. let them have it. >> i don't know if you made it special -- > i just do what i'm told. >> a look back at the 1992 presidential campaign of bill clinton during a visit to franklin high school in new hampshire. on real america, marking the

70th anniversary of the nuremberg trials. the 1945 u.s. army documentary on nazi concentration and prison camps. and continuing on oral histories -- >> my outfit went over, a couple days after d-day when they had enough beach land to justify it, and my captain, who was a new captain on that job, came and he said you stay here. again it was one of those times somebody reached out. and i was left. off they went. and it was several days later, a week or so. i rejoined my outfit. >> an interview with benjamin, a former chief prosecutor for the united states, born in transle vaina to a jewish family. immigrated to america. he reflects on enlisting in the u.s. army after law school and being assigned to set up a war crimes branch to investigate

nazi atrocities. watch american history tv, all weekend, every weekend on c-span3. get our complete schedule at -span.org. >> "washington journal" continues. host: during this last segment of the "washington journal" on this friday, november 13, we want to hear from you. hear your views on issues. we want to hear a lot of views this morning. so we are going to start right off with vicki in california on our democrats line. hi, vicki. caller: hi. i called before. i said before. we live on a ball. everything that has been, will be. everything that will be, has been. ok. we are repeating the same things over and over. this is just like 1865 when black people won their freedom,

racism went up. racism is lucrative. racism benefits white people. it's better for white people to capitalize on black people, slaves, what made this country great was the fact that they had to think of us as not human. that's why they treat us in inhuman way. host: tie that into today. you're talking about 1865. tie that into today. caller: we are going through the same thing. 1865. when obama won, that was a great thing for black people, right? but, white people were strategizing behind the scenes to bring him down. and this is like the rise of the ku klux klan after we won freedom. host: vicki in california. this is sandy in cheryl, new york on our independent line. hi, sandy. caller: hi, peter. it's nice to talk to you.

we have communicated through email so this is the first time i have gotten through to c-span. i just wanted to say that 30 years ago, almost 30 years ago, under ronald reagan, i worked for the department of labor, and one day somebody comes back with this h-1-b form and i read the description of the job and i brought that to my boss and i said, you know what, i think if you would let me search our files, or advertise, i think i could fill this job. i think i have people who can do this. and my boss looked at me and shook his shoulders and said, there's nothing we can do. this was almost 30 years ago under ronald reagan. so unlike the lady from tennessee, i never thought i would agree with michelle but i so thank her for bringing this to the public's attention

because this is not shifting jobs overseas, this is bringing the workers to the country under a lot of little rhetoric that sounds so good. but is really cheating the american workers. thank you, michelle malkin. host: that's sandy in sharlede, new york. this is the financial times from this morning. an op-ed written by president barack obama. it's in reference to the g-20 meeting that's going to be occurring in the next week or so in turkey. and he addresses this mainly to the other countries that will be attending. if you're interested in seeing it, it's in the financial times. steve is in portland, oregon. democrat, hi. caller: hi. i'm calling also to voice my surprising support for malkin's discussion. not only as my family and i personally seen this over the last 30 years, but there's a

part which we really haven't discussed and that is a substantial number of people who come from foreign countries actually go back to their country and increasingly we are seeing a tremendous competition set up within those countries themselves. so we are actually outsourcing the jobs permanently to create a competing industry in india, china, and elsewhere. host: steve, that's one of the arguments that the c.e.o.s and some of the other hiring people make which is, hey, let's allow these people to stay after they have been trained and have a good job and not have them go back and compete. caller: well, it is true that you could argue goodness for raising the entire -- floating the entire ocean. it's not helping american competitiveness. it might be helping the world.

but when people go back, it's because of personal reasons. these people are being pulled out of their culture, often they are top people in their culture and come here because the united states has had the top graduate school education. and increasingly they are going home because they are at home in their culture. and they want to be there. host: what kind of work do you do in portland, john? caller: computer science. host: private or public corporation in caller: private. host: thank you, sir. victoria, oregon. caller: good morning. host: where is malina, oregon? caller: 30 miles southeast of portland in the country. i want to mention my daughter's experience. she received a scholarship for volleyball to a southern university coming from oregon. and this was 1995, but hav things changed that much? she was ostracized and called an n lover for fratenizing with

some of the african-american students on campus. she said are you serious? this is 1995. are you for real? and she only lasted there, she gave up her scholarship, she said she really couldn't handle that -- there was so much segregation going on, even in the cafeteria, in the dorms, and it was very disheartening to her so she came back and completed her degree in oregon. host: that's victoria sharing a little experience from malino, oregon. this is gary in ohio. independent line. caller: yeah. thank you for taking my call. engineering and this h-1-b i have seen it since the see s and the real deal is these people can't change jobs. if they change jobs they send them back. so it's like an endentured slave

plus it takes our job. it has two -- a double -- it messes up their green card. they have to go back because they don't have a job. i have seen it happen both ways. i have worked with these people that are on this h-1-b and -- host: what's your line of work? caller: it was engineering. host: where is eaton, ohio? caller: west of dayton. host: ok. thank you, sir. barbara, englewood, california. hi, democrat. caller: hi, peter. i would like to say your you get the academy award for being cool and calm. i'm a 79-year-old former school teacher and racism has made me very upset and i guess you could

. y the slavery syndrome i can't get over that. when i taught in the schools in the inner cities, i tried to make my students love everyone, be very, very polite, don't use the color of their skin to get by, but to work very hard. after i retired, i still had that edge about me and i couldn't shake it. someone just didn't like me for the color of my skin. so i came off a little edgy and down right -- i forgot the word, but i didn't like that feeling. so i wanted to speak on behalf of some of those people, black people, who hide their really true feelings and somehow you

just have to let it go. i have been doing line dancing which helps me a lot just to let it go. i don't dislike anyone, but i still can't see why someone would hate me for the color of my skin. have a good day. i do love you, peter. i do. host: barbara, thank you. what did you teach? where did you teach? caller: you taught in englewood, california. physical education. drill team. i had large classes so i had a command of the ladies. and surely i tried to make them ladies and do a lot of things that ladies do. and i really, really enjoyed teaching. i really wasn't ready to right-side tire change, but i think they had enough of barbara

lindsey. host: englewood is majority black community, isn't it? caller: yes. but i did see a rise in the hispanic population and i was a little angry because i didn't understand, but then i went back and i read about the hispanic women. so being a minister in the public schools, because that's what the lord told me to do, i learned to love the female hispanics as well as the black students. host: no white students, huh? caller: no. when i first came there were quite a few. but englewood just -- everything black t from 95% population to over 50% hispanic.

and i really don't know where the black students went. but i did learn to love my hispanic females, plus my black students, and i would always say, with a smile, thank you. have a good day. and don't ever come to my class without saying, good morning. host: that's barbara l., retired teacher in englewood, california. speaking of education and teaching, c-span's education team and our marketing team, they are in orlando for two big events over the next couple of days. first, it's the fall national high school journalism convention. that's being held in orlando today and tomorrow. 5,000 high school student journalists and their advisors are attending this four-day conference. and c-span is there. we are showing them our student cam documentary competition and talking about that. and our c-span classroom which

provides free resources for teachers to enhance their teaching of social studies through c-span programming. there was the commercial and here is the website because the student cam thing really is awesome. it's studentcam.org if you're a teacher. if you're a student. if you're interested in seeing what some of the youth of today about,lic policy issuing go to see studentcam.org. if you're a teacher and want to find out more about c-span and the classroom, c-spanclassroom.org. this article was the "orlando sentinel" this morning, c-span relays g.o.p. sunshine summit in orlando. if you want a lot of the florida republican party, sunshine summit orlando this friday and saturday. c-span has you covered. c-span will show speeches by all 14 g.o.p. primary contenders as part of the channel's road to

the white house series. without commentary, unfiltered. unedited, as this writer says, what a concept. you can see it begins today at 10:30 a.m. all 14 will be there. live on c-span today and tomorrow. that's our road to the white house program, which used to be at a regularly scheduled time. you know what? we have really tried to make all the events live that we can. and "road to the white house" is on nearly every day here on the c-span networks. you can find that at c-span.org. there is the end of the commercial. back to your calls. matthew in alabama. a democrat. hi, matthew. caller: hello. host: i apologize. that's my fault. caller: ok. yes. thank you, c-span. i'm calling about how america as

a global government -- hello? host: we are listening to you, sir. you keep talking through that telephone. caller: yes. global government and my opinion of the debt ceiling i think it's calling debt krein we are taking loans from the i.n.s., global bank, the global bankers, which are the feds, federal reserve's -- federal reserves. and the two presidents that made our own currency who were assassinated, that would be lincoln and j.f.k., and -- john f. kennedy, that's the whole thing, it's exactly what thomas jefferson said. they are going to keep causing deflation and inflation and we are going to have to keep advancing that debt ceiling indefinitely. it will be a never-ending debt ceiling. we are just going to have to keep on raising it until our kids are sleeping in the streets of the nation that our father sounded.

host: that's matthew in alabama. emily in new hampshire, auburn, republican line. hi. caller: good morning. he previous speaker, the teacher, what a fresh person to hear. i wish i could give her a call. but my reference to the speaker at was talking about 1865, slavery, and apresident obama won election, all white people get plotting. i came from a european country 26 years ago as a refugee. i got my citizenship in 1995. i was watching in disbelief people who were hoping that 1865 mentality of slavery, something they missed or almost -- a token for excuse. they are not going to move anywhere with that attitude.

i came here with nothing. with two luggage suitcases, and my kids went to school where 70% population were kids from african-american community. my kids went to college and wonderful job with education and working. a lot of kids i knew from their childhood went to the drug dealers. when president obama won, i was actually crying in happiness, even though i didn't like a lot of his social agenda because i came from communist country and i have a goose bumps still just hearing it out. but i was hoping that he -- his life story he will inspire a lot of kids from his community to go higher, go up, put your hard work and education, achieve any he dream you can because you can -- in this country you definitely can. i just can't believe people still drag to the 1865

mentality. i think this community should shake themselves up because if they don't change it, nothing will change it. host: emily in new hampshire. emily, are you taking advantage of the fact that new hampshire is the first primary in the nation and going out to see the candidates? caller: oh, yes, i do. i'm totally involved. host: how many have you gone to see? caller: as many as i can schedule between my work and days off. host: that's emily in new hampshire. this is willie in burlington, new jersey. hi, willie. caller: hi. good morning. how you doing? host: how are you? caller: great. i am glad i checked in this morning to hear your broadcast and hear you talk to your guest because i have just been sitting down tweeting and writing comments on the same subject this morning. my problem with the whole hb system is everyone claims we are not turning out the right students for education.

our students are not equal to the other education. yet still those countries send their kids over here to be educated by our teachers and they go back to the country. for some reason they become better than our kids. and these companies that have hired those people, down playing he roles that our kids can do. we have some of the smartest students in the world. i have been able to travel around the world. i have seen how people act and how people do. and you come back home, you find out still great. the problem we have rbs and democratic people is in congress. they bring these people in and what they do, they'll take money from these big corporations, keeping these people onboard so they can make big money. and paying those people under the table half the time. you got these people saying we

are training here in the country and the people saying this morning, bring them in here. if they were still smart, why do they have to go out to the country, to get somebody to come in here to do the job? america has been working for years on going -- yet the people in the hotel industry, construction industry, now you're saying we don't have anybody in america that's willing to do those jobs? that's why you people is on the street now. host: ok, willie. we have to keep moving here. tom in minneapolis. democrat. caller: hi, i was calling in because i was in the i.t. sector. i was a pretty well paid systems analyst, computer programmer. i worked at a lot of major corporations that everyone here would know the name of. i tell you, when the flood of immigrants came in and the slow

downs in our economy over the last 13 years, had a couple of big slow downs and stock market crashes, when all that came through it really decimated the jobs. and i finally just gave up. i had numerous people saying we could get you a job, but there aren't any. yet i -- host: you work for a major corporation up there in millions, tom? caller: i was an independent consultant. so it's even a tougher road. you sort of go out on your own through brokers and get positions. just even recently. i had a friend that was laid off from a company that's a huge, huge health firm that, again, everyone would know. and he just told me about the seeds and seeds of indian -- seas and seas of indian faces when they did a telly conference. he said -- tell conference. all he could see was the sea of

indian face, indian i.t. workers. host: tom, we are going to apologize again but gary says via twitter, my brother works at boeing and they use a lot of h-1 workers. the unions have been late to the dance to protect american workers. two articles from the "washington times" that may be of interest to you. just going to point it out quickly. their lead editorial, choosing a president by man national park plays. sentially is -- president by man -- manipulation. and next president could appoint up to four high court justices might be of interest. both articles are from the "washington times." reminder every weekend c-span2, book tv on the weekend. there's the website. one of the features this weekend is patrick kennedy talking about his addiction and his family. and american history tv is every weekend on c-span3. and there's their website. you can find all