's position on means testing for certain government benefits? mr. lombardo: we don't have one right now on means testing. that is not something that we've talked about. it's clearly something that i think candidates are going to start talking, i hope the political candidates will get into that. some of the substantive policy issues, this is a fun election cycle and i think people are hope it'stertained, i some point it starts to migrate to important issues like that, but we don't have a position right now. thank you very much. i appreciate it. [applause] all campaign long, c-span takes you on the road to the white house. unfettered access to the candidates at town hall meetings, news conferences, rallies, and speeches. we are taking your comments on

twitter, facebook, and by phone. cover is campaign we available on our website at www.c-span.org. democratic residential candidates -- presidential candidates took part in a debate last night at drake university. the debate was cosponsored by "the des moines register" and twitter. this is about one hour and 35 minutes. john dickerson: good evening. i'm john dickerson of cbs news in des moines, iowa. the debate you've tuned in to see tonight is a symbol of the freedom we all cherish. last night, the world watched in horror as freedom was savagely attacked in the heart of paris. at least 129 people were killed and many more wounded in a coordinated series of terror attacks. tonight, as france mourns, so does america.

so before we begin tonight's second debate with these candidates for the democratic presidential nomination, we ask you to join us in observing a moment of silence. [moment of silence] john dickerson: now please welcome to drake university former secretary of state hillary clinton. [applause] senator bernie sanders of vermont. [applause] john dickerson: and martin o'malley, the former governor of maryland. [applause] john dickerson: joining me in

the questioning tonight are cbs news congressional correspondent nancy cordes, anchor kevin cooney of our cbs des moines affiliate kcci, and political columnist kathie obradovich of the des moines register. [applause] john dickerson: twitter is another of our partners for this debate. tweets will help us follow the reactions to what the candidates say. so please send us your comments using the #demdebate. and we'll begin in just a moment. john dickerson: before we start the debate, here are the rules. the candidates have one minute to respond to our questions and 30 seconds to respond to our follow-ups. any candidate attacked by another candidate gets 30 seconds for rebuttal. here is how we will keep time. after a question is asked, the

green light goes on. when there are 15 seconds left, the candidate gets a yellow warning light. when time is up, the light turns red. that means stop talking. [laughter] john dickerson: those are the rules, so let's get started. you will each have one minute for an opening statement to share your thoughts about the attacks in paris and lay out your vision for america. first, senator sanders. let me concur: with you and all americans that we are shocked about what we saw in paris. war, our country will help with the planet of scientists. i'm running for president because as a go around this country, i talked to a lot of people. concern that the economy we have is a rigged economy. people are working longer hours for lower wages.

most of it goes to the top 1%. we have a corrupt campaign finance system in which millionaires and billionaires are pouring huge sums of money into super pac's heavily influencing the political process. my campaign is about a political revolution. millions of people standing up and saying enough is enough, our government belongs to all of us and not just a handful of billionaires. john dickerson: all right, senator sanders. secretary clinton. hillary clinton: our prayers are with the people of france tonight, but that is not enough. we need to have a result that will bring the world together to root out the kind of radical jihadist ideology that motivates organizations like isis, the barbaric, ruthless, violet jihadist, terrorist group. this election is not only about electing a president. it's also about choosing our

next commander-in-chief. and i will be laying out in detail what i think we need to do with our friends and allies in europe and elsewhere to do a better job of coordinating efforts against the scourge of terrorism. our country deserves no rest -- no less because all of the other issues we want to deal with depends on us being secure and strong. john dickerson: governor o'malley. martin o'malley: my heart, like all of us in this room, john, and all the people across our country -- my hearts go out to the people of france in this moment of loss, parents and -- and -- and sons and daughters and family members. and -- as our hearts go out and as our prayers go out to them we must remember this, that this isn't a new face of conflict and warfare, not in the 20th century but the new face of conflict of warfare in the 21st century. and there is no nation on the

planet better able to adapt to this change than our nation. we must be able to work collaboratively with others. we must anticipate these threats before they happen. this is the new sort of challenge, the new sort of threat that does, in fact, require new thinking, fresh approaches and new leadership. as a former mayor and a former governor, there was never a single day, john, when i went to bed or woke up without realizing that this could happen in our own country. we have a lot of work to do to better prepare our nation and to better lead this world into this new century. john dickerson: all right, thank you, governor, thank all of you. the terror attacks last night underscored the biggest challenge facing the next president of the united states. at a time of crisis the country , and the world look to the president for leadership and for answers. so secretary clinton, i'd like to start with you. hours before the attacks, president obama said, "i don't think isis is gaining strength." 72% of americans think the fight against isis is going badly. won't the legacy of this administration which is -- which

you were a part of -- won't that legacy be that it underestimated the threats from isis? hillary clinton: well, john i think that -- we have to look at isis as the leading threat of an international terror network. it cannot be contained, it must be defeated. there is no question in my mind that if we summon our resources, both our leadership resources and all of the tools at our disposal, not just military force which should be used as a last resort, but our diplomacy, our development aid, law enforcement, sharing of intelligence in a much more -- open and cooperative way -- that we can bring people together. but it cannot be an american fight. and i think what the president has consistently said -- which i agree with -- is that we will support those who take the fight to isis. that is why we have troops in iraq that are helping to train and build back up the iraqi military, why we have special operators in syria working with the kurds and arabs so that we

can be supportive. but this cannot be an american fight, although american leadership is essential. john dickerson: but -- secretary cli -- clinton, the question's about what -- was isis underestimated. the president referred to isis as the jvu in a speech, the council in foreign relations in june of 2014 said, "i could not have predicted the extent to which isis could be effective in seizing cities in iraq." so you've got prescriptions for the future. but how -- how do we know if those prescriptions are any good if you missed it in the past? hillary clinton: well, john, look, i think that what happened when we abided by the agreement that george w. bush made with the iraqis to leave by 2011 is that an iraqi army was left that had been trained and that was prepared to defend iraq. unfortunately, nouri al-maliki, the prime minister, set about decimating it. and then with the revolution against assad -- and i did early on say we needed to try to find

a way to train and equip moderates very early so that we would have a better idea of how to deal with assad because i thought there would be -- extremist groups filling the vacuum. so, yes, this has developed. i think that there are many other reasons why it has in addition -- to what's happened in the region. but i don't think that the united states has the bulk of the responsibility. i really put that on assad and on the iraqis and on the region itself. john dickerson: ok, governor o'malley, would you critique the administration's response to isis? if the united states doesn't lead, who does? martin o'malley: john, i would -- i would disagree with -- with secretary clinton, respectfully, on this score. this actually is america's fight. it cannot solely be america's fight. america is best when we work in collaboration with our allies. america is best when we are actually standing up to evil in this world. and isis, make no mistake about it, is an evil in this world. isis has brought down a russian airliner.

isis has now attacked the western democracy in france. and we do have a role in this. not solely ours. but we must work collaboratively with other nations. the great failing of these last 10 or 15 years, john, has been our failing of human intelligence on the ground. our role in the world is not to roam the globe looking for new dictators to topple. our role in the world is to make ourselves a beacon of hope, make ourselves stronger at home. but also our role in the world, yes, is also to confront evil when it rises. we took out the save haven in -- safe haven in afghanistan but now there is undoubtedly a larger safe haven. and we must rise to this occasion in collaboration and with alliances to confront it. and invest in the future much better human intelligence so we know what the next steps are. john dickerson: senator sanders, you said you want to rid the planet of isis. in the previous debate you said , the greatest threat to national security was climate change. do you still believe that? bernie sanders: absolutely.

in fact, climate change is directly related to the growth of terrorism. and if we do not get our act together and listen to what the scientists say you're gonna see , countries all over the world -- this is what the c.i.a. says they're gonna be struggling over , limited amounts of water, limited amounts of land to grow their crops. and you're gonna see all kinds of international conflict. but of course international terrorism is a major issue that we've got to address today. and i agree with much of what -- the secretary and -- and the governor have said. i only have one area of disagreement with the secretary. i think she said something like, "the bulk of the responsibility is not ours." well, in fact, i would argue that the disastrous invasion of iraq, something that i strongly opposed, has unraveled the region completely. and led to the rise of al qaeda and isis. now, in fact, what we have got to do -- and i think there is widespread agreement here -- because the united states cannot

do it alone. what we need to do is lead an international coalition which includes -- very significantly -- the muslim nations in that region are gonna have to fight and defend their way of life. john dickerson: quickly just -- let me ask you -- follow up on that, senator sanders, when you said the disastrous vote [?] iraq let's just be clear , about what you're saying, you're saying secretary clinton -- who was then senator clinton -- voted for the iraq war. and are you making a direct link between her vote for that or -- and what's happening now for isis? just so everybody -- bernie sanders: oh i don't think any -- i don't think any sensible person would disagree that the invasion of iraq led to the massive level of instability we are seeing right now. i think that was one of the worst foreign policy plunders in the modern history of united states. john dickerson: all right, let's let secretary clinton respond to that. hillary clinton: thank you, john, well, i think it's important we put this in historic context. the united states has unfortunately been victimized by terrorism going back decades. in the it was in beirut, lebanon

1980's, under president reagan's administration and 258 americans, marines, embassy personnel and others were murdered. we also had attacks on two of our embassies in -- tanzania and kenya -- when my husband was president. again, americans murdered. and then of course 9/11 happened which happened before there was an invasion of iraq. i have said the invasion of iraq was a mistake. but i think if we're ever gonna really tackle the problems posed by jihadi extreme terrorism we need to understand it and realize that it has antecedents to what happened in iraq and we have to continue to be vigilant about it. john dickerson: senator sanders, let me just follow this line of thinking. you've criticized then senator clinton's vote. do you have anything to criticize in the way she performed as secretary of state? bernie sanders: i think we have a disagreement. and the disagreement is that not only did i vote against the war in iraq, if you look at history,

john, you will find that regime change -- whether it was in the early in iran, whether it was 50's toppling salvador allende in chile or whether it was overthrowing the government of guatemala way back when. these invasions, these -- these toppling of governments, regime changes have unintended consequences. i would say that on this issue , i'm a little bit more conservative than the secretary. and i am not a great fan of regime change. john dickerson: all right. john dickerson: here, let me go -- secretary clinton also said that we left the h -- it was not just the invasion of iraq which secretary clinton voted for and has since said was a big mistake, and indeed it was. but it was also the cascading effects that followed that. it was also the disbanding of -- many elements of the iraqi army that are now showing up as part of isis. it was -- country after country

without making the investment in human intelligence to understand who the new leaders were and the new forces were that are coming up. we need to be much more far thinking in this new 21st century era of nation state failures and conflict. it's not just about getting rid of a single dictator. it is about understanding the secondary and third consequences that fall next. john dickerson: all right, secretary. hillary clinton: well, and -- and of course each of these cases needs to be looked at individually and analyzed. part of the problem that we have currently in the middle east is that assad has hung onto power -- with the very strong support of russia and iran and with the proxy of hezbollah, being there basically fighting his battles. so i don't think you can paint with a broad brush. this is an incredibly complicated region of the world. it's become more complicated. and many of the fights that are going on are not ones that the united states has either started or have a role in. the shia -- sunni split, the dictatorships that have

suppressed people's aspirations, the increasing globalization without any real safety valve for people to have a better life. we saw that in egypt. we saw a dictator overthrown, we saw a muslim brotherhood president installed and then we saw him ousted and the army back. so i think we've got to understand the complexity of the world that we are facing and no places more so than in the middle east. john dickerson: i understand. quickly, senator. bernie sanders: the secretary's obviously right. it is enormously complicated. but here's something that i believe we have to do is we put together an international coalition. and that is we have to understand that the muslim nations in the region, saudi arabia, iran, turkey, jordan, all of these nations, they're going to just have to get their hands dirty, their boots on the ground. they are gonna have to take on isis. this is a war for the soul of islam. and those countries who are opposed to islam, they are gonna

have to get deeply involved in a way that is not the case today. we should be supportive of that effort. so should the u.k., so should france. but those muslim countries are gonna have to lead the efforts. they are not doing it now. hillary clinton: well, i think that is very unfair to a few that you mentioned -- most particularly jordan which has put a lot on the line to the united states. it's also taken in hundreds of thousands of refugees from syria and has been therefore subjected to threats and attacks by extremists themselves. i do agree that in particular turkey and the gulf nations have got to make up their minds. are they going to stand with us against this kind of jihadi radicalism or not? and there are many ways of doing it. they can provide sources, they -- they can provide forces, they can provide resources. but they need to be absolutely clear about where they stand. john dickerson: let me ask you -- secretary clinton a question about leadership. we're asking about what role does america pick.

let me ask you about libya. so libya is a country in which isis has -- taken hold in part because of the chaos after muammar gaddafi, that was an operation you championed. president obama says is the lesson he took from that operation. in an interview he said, "the lesson was do we have an answer for the day after." wasn't that supposed to be one of the lessons that we learned after the iraq war? and how did you get it wrong with libya if the key lesson of the iraq war is have a plan for after? hillary clinton: well, we did have a plan. and i think it is fair to say that of all of the arab leaders , gaddafi probably had more blood on his hands of americans than anybody else. and when he moved on his own people threatening a massacre, a genocide occurred. the europeans and the arabs, our allies and partners -- did ask for american help. and we provided it. and we didn't put a single boot on the ground. and gaddafi was deposed. the libyans turned out for one of the most successful arab

elections that any arab country has had. they elected moderate leaders. now there has been a lot of turmoil and trouble as they have tried to deal with these radical elements which you find in this arc of instability from north africa to afghanistan. and it is imperative that we do more -- not only to help our friends and partners protect themselves and protect our own homeland -- but also to work to try to deal with this arc of instability which does have a lot of impact on what happens in a country like libya. john dickerson: governor o'malley, i want to ask you a question and you can add whatever you'd like to. but let me ask you, is the world too dangerous a place for a governor who has no foreign policy experience? martin o'malley: john, the world is a very dangerous place. but the world is not too dangerous of a place for the united states of america provided we act according to our principles, provided we act intelligently. i mean, let's talk about this arc of instability that secretary clinton talked about. libya is now a mess. syria is a mess.

iraq is a mess. afghanistan is a mess. as americans we have shown ourselves to have the greatest military on the face of the planet. but we are not so very good at anticipating threats and appreciating just how difficult it is to build up stable democracies and make the investments in sustainable development that we must as the nation if we are to attack the root causes of these sorts of of instability. and i wanted to add one other thing, john, and i think it's important for all of us on this stage. i was in burlington, iowa and a mom of a service member of ours who served two duties in iraq said, "governor o'malley, please, when you're with your other candidates and colleagues on stage, please don't use the "boots on the ground." please don't use the term boots on the ground. my son is not a pair of boots on the ground." these are american soldiers and we fail them when we fail to take into account what happens the day after a dictator falls.

and when we fail to act with a whole of government approach with sustainable development, diplomacy and our economic power in alignment with our principles. hillary clinton: well, i think it is perfectly fair to say that we invested quite a bit in development aid. some of the bravest people that i had the privilege of working with as secretary of state were our development professionals who went sometimes alone, sometimes with our military into very dangerous places in iraq, in afghanistan -- elsewhere. so there does need to be a whole of government approach. but just because we're involved and we have a strategy doesn't mean we're going to be able to dictate the outcome. these are often very long-term kinds of investments that have to be made. bernie sanders: but when you talk about the long-term consequences of war let's talk , about the men and women who came home from war. the 500,000 who came home with ptsd and traumatic brain injury.

and i would hope that in the midst of all of this discussion , this country makes certain that we do not turn our backs on the men and women who put their lives on the line to defend us. and that we stand with them as they have stood with us. john dickerson: secretary clinton, you mentioned radical jihadists. hillary clinton: yes. john dickerson: marco rubio, also running for president, said that this attack showed -- in -- the attack in paris showed that we are at war with radical islam. do you agree with that characterization, radical islam? hillary clinton: i don't think we're at war with islam. i don't think we at war with all muslims. i think we're at war with jihadists who have -- john dickerson: just to interrupt, he -- he didn't say all muslims. he just said radical islam. is that a phrase you don't -- hillary clinton: i -- i think that you can talk about islamists who are also clearly jihadists. but i think it's not particularly helpful to make the case that senator sanders was just making that i agree with

that we've got to reach out to muslim countries. we've got to have them be part of our coalition. if they hear people running for president who basically shortcut it to say we are somehow against islam -- that was one of the real contributions despite all the other problems that george w. bush made after 9/11 when he basically said after going to a mosque in washington, "we are not at war with islam or muslims." we are at war with violent extremism. we are at war with people who use their religion for purposes of power and oppression." and yes, we are at war with those people that i don't want us to be painting with too broad of a brush. john dickerson: the reason i ask is that you gave a speech at georgetown university in which you said that it was important to show -- quote -- respect even for one's enemy. trying to understand and in so far as psychologically possible empathize with their perspective and point of view. can you explain what that means in the context of this kind of barbarism? hillary clinton: i think with this kind of barbarism and nihilism -- it's very hard to understand other than the lust

for power, the rejection of modernity the total disregard , for human life -- freedom or any other value that we know and respect. historically it is important to try to understand your adversary in order to figure out how they are thinking, what they will be doing, how they will react. i plead that it's very difficult when you deal with isis and organizations like that whose -- whose behavior is so barbaric and so vicious that it doesn't seem to have any purpose other than lust for killing and power. and that's very difficult to put ourselves in other shoes. john dickerson: very quickly, do either of you -- radical islam, do either of you use that -- use that phrase? bernie sanders: i don't think the term is what's important. what is important to understand is we have organizations, whether it is isis or al qaeda who do believe we should go back , several thousand years, we should make women third-class citizens, that we should allow children to be sexually

assaulted, that they are a danger to modern society. and that this world with american leadership can and must come together to destroy them. we can do that. martin o'malley: john -- bernie sanders: and it requires an entire world to come together including, in a very active way, the muslim nations. john dickerson: governor o'malley, you've been making the case -- when you talk about lack of forward vision, you're essentially saying that secretary clinton lacks that vision. and this critique matches up with this discussion of language. the critique is that the softness of language betrays a softness of approach. so if this language -- if you don't call it by what it is, how can your approach be effective to the cause. that's the critique. martin o'malley: i believe calling it what it is, is to say radical jihadis, that's to call what it is. but john, let's not fall into the trap of thinking that all of our muslim-american neighbors in this country are somehow our enemies here. they are our first line of defense. and we are going to be able to

defeat isis on the ground there as well as in this world because of the muslim-americans in our country and throughout the world who understand that this brutal and barbaric group is perverting the name of a great world religion. and now like never before we , need our muslim-american neighbors to stand up and to -- and to be a part of this. john dickerson: secretary clinton, the -- french president has called this attack an act of war. a couple of days ago you were asked if you would declare war on isis and you said no. what would you say now? hillary clinton: well we have an , authorization to use military force against terrorists. we passed it after 9/11. john dickerson: and you think that covers all of it? hillary clinton: it -- it certainly does cover it. i would like to see it updated. john dickerson: if you were in the senate would you be ok with -- the commander in chief doing

that without coming back to you? hillary clinton: no. it would have to go through the congress. and i know the white house has actually been working with members of congress. maybe now we can get it moving again so that we can upgrade it so that it does include all the tools and everything in our arsenal that we can use to try to work with our allies and our friends, come up with better intelligence. you know, it is difficult finding intelligence that is actionable in a lot of these places. but we have to keep trying. and we have to do more to prevent the flood of foreign fighters who have gone to syria, especially the ones with -- with western passports that come back. so there's a lot of work we need to do. and i want to be sure that what's called the aumf has the authority that is needed going forward. john dickerson: let me just -- let that is -- whatever you've got to say refugees. you've been a little vague about what you've done in the syrian refugees. i mean, what's your view on them now -- bernie sanders: let me pick up an issue that -- a very important issue that we have not yet discussed. this nation is the most powerful military in the world. we're spending over $600 billion

a year on the military. and yet significantly less than 10% of that money is used to be fighting international terrorism. we are spending hundreds of billions of dollars on 5,000 nuclear weapons. i think we need major reform in the military making it more cost effective but also focusing on the real crisis that faces us. the cold war is over and our focus has got to be on intelligence, increased manpower, fighting international terrorism. in terms of refugees i believe , that the united states has the moral responsibility with europe, with gulf countries like saudi arabia, to make sure that when people leave countries like afghanistan and syria with nothing more than the clothing on their back that of course we reach out. now what the magic number is, i don't know. because we don't know the extent of the problem. but i certainly think that the united states should take its full responsibility in helping those. john dickerson: governor o'malley, you have a magic number. i think it's 65,000. does that number go up or down based on what happened yesterday? martin o'malley: john, i was the first person on this stage to

say that we should accept the 65,000 syrian refugees that were fleeing the sort of murder of -- of isil. and i believe that that needs to be done with proper screening. but accommodating 65,000 refugees in our country, people of 320 million is akin to making room for six and a half more people in a baseball stadium with 32,000. there are other ways to lead and to be a moral leader in this world rather than at the opposite end of a drone strike. but i would want to agree with something that senator sanders says, the nature of warfare has changed. this is not a conflict where we send in the third divisions of marines. this is a new era of conflict where traditional ways of -- of huge standing armies are not as -- serve our purposes as well as special ops, better intelligence , and being more proactive. john dickerson: just very quickly, 65,000, the number stays? martin o'malley: that's what i understand is the request from the international -- john dickerson: but -- what

would you want? martin o'malley: i would want us to take our place among the nations of the world to alleviate the sorta death and the specter of death we saw with the little kid washing up on a beach. john dickerson: secretary clinton, let me ask you a question from twitter that's come in. and this is a question on this issue of refugees. the question is with the u.s. preparing to absorb syrian refugees, how do you propose we screen those coming in to keep our citizens safe? hillary clinton: i think that is the number one requirement. i also said that we should take increased numbers of refugees. the administration originally said ten. i said we should go to 65 but only if we have as carefully screening and vetting process as we can imagine whatever resources it takes. because i do not want us to in any way inadvertently allow people who wish us harm to come into our country. but i want to say a quick word about what senator sanders and governor o'malley said. we do have to take a hard look

at the defense budget. and we do have to figure out how we get ready to fight the adversaries of the future, not the past. but we have to also be very clear that we do have some continuing challenges. we have got challenges in the south china sea because of what china is doing in building up -- these military installations. we have problems with russia. just the other day russia allowed a television camera to see the plans for a drone submarine that could carry a tactical nuclear weapon. so we've got to look at the full range and then come to some smart decisions about have -- having more streamlined and focused defense. john dickerson: senator sanders, i'm sorry, we're gonna have to take a break now. we will have more of the democratic debate here from drake university in des moines, iowa. john dickerson: want to turn now from terrorism to another important issue for many americans, the financial squeeze on the middle class. for that, we go to my cbs news colleague, nancy cordes. nancy?

nancy cordes: john, thanks so much. we've learned a lot during the course of this campaign about the is that you'd like to do -- that you think help the middle class. so we haven't learned quite as much about who would pick up the tab. so secretary clinton, first to you, you want to cap individual prescription drug costs at $250 a month. you want to make public college debt free. you want community college to be free altogether and you want mandatory paid family leave. so who pays for all that? is it employers? is it the taxpayers? and which taxpayers? hillary clinton: well, first of all, it isn't the middle class. i have made very clear that -- hard-working, middle class families need a raise, not a tax increase. in fact wages adjusted for , inflation haven't risen since the turn of the last century after my husband's administration. so we have a lot of work to do to get jobs going again, get incomes rising again. and i have laid out specific plans. you can go to my website, hillaryclinton.com and read the details. and i would pay for it by, yes,

taxing the wealthy more, closing corporate loopholes, deductions , and other kinds of favorable treatment. and i can do it without raising the debt, without raising taxes on the middle class, and making it reasonably manageable within our budget so that we can be fiscally responsible at the same time. nancy: but a quick follow-up on that $250 a month a cap. wouldn't the pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies just pass that cost onto the consumers in the form of higher premiums? hillary clinton: well, we're gonna have to redo the way the prescription drug industry does business. for example, it is outrageous that we don't have an opportunity for medicare to negotiate for lower prices. in fact, american consumers pay the highest prices in the world for drugs that we helped to be developed through the national institutes of health and that we then tested through the fda. so there's more to my plan than just the cap. we have to go after price gouging and monopolistic practices and get medicare the

authority to negotiate. nancy governor o'malley, you : also want to make public college debt free, you want to freeze tuition. martin o'malley: that's right. nessie you've got your own : family leave plan. how would you pay for it? in maryland you raised the sales tax, you raised the gas tax and you raised taxes on families making over $150,000 a year. is that the blueprint? martin o'malley: nancy, the blueprint in maryland that we follow was, yes, we did, in fact, raise the -- the sales tax by a penny. and we made our public schools the best public schools in america for five years in a row with that investment. and, yes, we did ask everyone , the top 14% of earners in our state to pay more in their income tax. and we were the only state to go four years without a penny's increase to college tuition. so while other candidates will talk about the things they would like to do, i actually got these things in a state that defended not only a triple a bond rating but the highest medium income in america. i believe that we paid for many

of the things that we need to do again as a nation, investing in the skills of our people, our infrastructure and research and development and also climate change by the elimination of one big entitlement that we can no longer afford as a people. and that is the entitlement that many of our super wealthiest citizens feel they are entitled to pay, namely a much lower income tax rate and a lower tax rate on capital gains. i believe capital gains for the most part should be taxed the same way we tax incomes from hard work, sweat and toil. and if we do those things, we can be a country that actually can afford debt-free college again. nancy: senator sanders, you want to make public college free altogether. you want to increase social security benefits. and you want to spend $1 trillion on infrastructure. so you said that to do some of these things you'll impose a tax on top earners. how high would their rate go in a sanders administration? bernie sanders: let me put those

proposals -- and you're absolutely right. that is what i want to do. that is what has to happen if we're gonna revitalize and rebuild the crumbling middle class. in the last 30 years there has , been a massive redistribution of wealth. and i know that term gets my republican friends nervous. the problem is this redistribution has gone in the wrong direction. trillions of dollars have gone to the middle class and working families to the top 1/10 of 1% who have doubled the percentage of wealth they now own. yes, i do believe that we must end corporate loopholes such that major corporations year after year pay virtually zero in federal income tax because they're stashing their money in the cayman islands. yes, i do believe there must be a tax on wall street speculation. we bailed out wall street. it is their time to bail out the middle class. help our kids be able to go to college tuition free. so we pay for this by do demanding that the wealthiest people and the largest corporations who have gotten away with murder for years start

paying their fair share. nancy: well, let's get specific, how high would you go? you said before you'd go above 50%. how high? bernie sanders: we haven't come up with an exact number yet. but it will not be as high as the number under dwight eisenhower which was 90%. but it will be -- [laughter] bernie sanders: i'm not a socialist compared to eisenhower. [laughter] [applause] but -- but we are gonna end the absurdity as warren buffet often reminds us -- martin o'malley: that's right. bernie sanders: -- that billionaires pay an effective tax rate lower than nurses or truck drivers. that makes no sense at all. there has to be real tax reform . martin o'malley under ronald : raegan's first term the highest marginal rate was 70%. and in talking to a lot of our neighbors who are in that super wealthy millionaire and billionaire category great

numbers of them love their country enough to do more again in order to create more opportunity for america's middle class. nancy secretary clinton, : americans say that health care costs and wages are their top financial concerns. and health care deductibles alone have risen 67% over the past five years. is this something that obamacare was designed to address? and if not, why not? hillary clinton: well, look, i believe that we've made great progress as a country with the affordable care act. we've been struggling to get this done since harry truman. and it was not only a great accomplishment to the democratic party but of president obama. i do think that it's important to defend it. the republicans have voted to repeal it nearly 60 times. they would like to rip it up and start all over again, throw our nation back into this really contentious debate that we've had about health care for quite some time now. i want to build on and improve the affordable care act. i would certainly tackle the cost issues because i think that once the foundation was laid with a system to try to get as many people as possible into it, to end insurance discrimination against people with pre-existing

conditions or women, for example, that, yes, we were going to have to figure out how to get more competition in the insurance market, how to get the cost of particularly prescription drugs but other out of pocket expenses down. but i think it's important to understand there's a significant difference that i have with senator sanders about how best to provide quality affordable health care for everyone. and it's a worthy debate. it's an important one that we should be engaged in. nancy it is a worthy debate. : senator sanders, a quick response and then we'll get -- into health care again later. bernie sanders: i am on the committee that helped write the affordable care act. we have made some good progress. now what we have to take on is the pharmaceutical industry that is ripping off the american people every single day. i am proud that i was the first member of congress to take americans over the canadian border to buy breast cancer drugs for 1/10 the price they were paying in the united states.

but at the end of the day no , doubt the affordable care act is a step forward. i think we all support it. i believe we've got to go further. i want to end the international embarrassment of the united states of america being the only major country on earth that doesn't guarantee health care to all people as a right, not a privilege. [applause] bernie sander also what we : should be clear about is we end up spending -- i think the secretary knows this -- far more per capita on health care than any other major country and our health care outcomes are not necessarily -- martin o'malley: all right, we have found a way to reduce hospital costs. >> you are breaking the rules. john dickerson: i'm sorry, we're gonna have to cut for a commercial. we'll be right back here from drake university in des moines, iowa. there is a lot of history here. herbert was born in west france. tonight, we are in polk county

for our 11th president with three people who hope to be number 45. joining me now to question them are iowan keven cooney of kcci and kathie obradovich of the decides moines register, kevin. kevin kooney: thanks john. candidates, we've already -- heard your answers on what you would do with syrian refugees. but a crucial part of the immigration debate here at home controlling our own borders. republican say the borders, security borders is a top priority. democrats say they want to plan for comprehensive integration reform. so governor o'malley, are you willing to compromise on this particular issue to focus on border security first if they were keeping the country safe? martin o'malley: well, security -- we've actually been focusing on do -- border security to the exclusion of talking about comprehensive immigration reform. in fact if more border security and more deportations were going to bring our republican brothers and sisters to the table it would've happened long ago.

the fact of the matter is -- and let's say it in our debate because you'll never hear this from that immigrant bashing carnival barker donald trump, -- [laughter] [applause] o'malley: the truth of the matter is net immigration from mexico last year was zero. fact check me, go ahead, check it out. but the truth of the matter is if we want wages to go up we've got to get 11 million of our neighbors out of the shadow economy and into the full light of an american economy. that's what our parents and grandparents always did. that's what we need to do as a nation. yes, we must protect our borders. but there is no substitute for having comprehensive immigration reform with a pathway to citizenship for 11 million people many of whom have known , no other country but the united states of america. our symbol is the statue of liberty. it is not a barbed wire fence. thank you. [applause] kevin kooney: now, secretary

clinton, you have said you would go further than the president when it comes to taking executive action to implement immigration reforms. but the president's already facing legal troubles on this. we've seen it more just in the past week. realistically how can you go further with executive action? hillary clinton: well, first of all, i know that -- the president has appealed the -- decision -- to the supreme court. and my reading of the law and the constitution convinces me that the president has the authority that he is attempting to exercise with respect to dreamers and their parents because i think all of us on this stage agree we need comprehensive immigration reform with a path to citizenship. border security has always been a part of that debate. and it is a fact that the net immigration from mexico and south has basically zeroed out. so what we want to do is to say, "look, we have 11 million people who have been here, many of them for decades." they have children who are doing so well. i've met and worked with

dreamers. i think any parent would be so proud of them. so let's move toward what we should be doing as a nation and follow the values of our immigration history and begin to make it possible for them to come out of the shadows and to have a future. [applause] kathie obradovich: senator sanders you guys have talked , about immigration as being a wage issue in the united states. and i want to actually go directly to the wage issue now. you've talked about raising to $15 an hour everywhere in the country. but the president's former chair of the council of economic advisors, alan krueger has said the national increase of $15 could lead to undesirable and unintended consequences like job loss. what level of job loss would you consider unacceptable? bernie sanders: let me say this . no public policy doesn't have in some cases negative

consequences. but at the end of the day what you have right now are millions of americans working two or three jobs because the wages that they are earning are just too low. real inflation accounted for wages has declined precipitously over the years. so i believe that in fact this country needs to move toward a living wage. it is not a radical idea to say that if somebody works 40 hours a week that person should not be living in poverty. it is not a radical idea to say that a single mom should be earning enough money to take care of her kids. so i believe that over the next few years, not tomorrow, that over the next few years we have got to move the minimum wage to a living wage $15 bucks an hour. , and i apologize to nobody. [applause] kathie obradovich: but you said there are consequences for any policy. do you think job losses are a

consequence? bernie sanders: this is what many economists believe that one of the reasons that real unemployment in this country is 10%. one of the reasons that african american youth unemployment and underemployment is 51 percent is the average worker in america doesn't have any disposable income. you have no disposable income when you are making $12.00 bucks $10, an hour. when we put money into the hands of working people they're gonna go out for our goods. they're gonna go out for our services. and they are gonna create jobs in doing that. that is the kind of economy i believe, put money in the hands of working people, raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. martin o'malley: kathie, this was not merely theory in maryland. we actually did it. not only were we the first state in the nation to pass a living wage we were the first to pass a minimum wage. and the u.s. chamber of commerce which hardly ever says nice things about democratic governors anywhere made our state number one for innovation and entrepreneurship. we defended the highest median income in the country. a stronger middle class is actually the source of economic growth.

and if our middle class makes more money, they spend more money. and our whole economy grows. we did it. and it worked. and nobody headed for the hills or left the state because of it. kathie obradovich: you're calling for a $15 -- minimum wage. but why did you stop at $10.10 in your state? martin o'malley: $10.10 was all i could get the state to do by the time i left in my last year. but two of our counties actually went to $12.80. and their county executives if they were here tonight would also tell you that it works. the fact of the matter is the more our people earn the more money they spend and the more our whole economy grows. [applause] bernie sanders. this is not an esoteric argument. and you're seeing cities like seattle, you're seeing cities like san francisco, cities like los angeles doing it. and they are doing it well and workers are able to have more disposable income. hillary clinton: but i do take what alan krueger said seriously. he is the foremost expert in our country on the minimum wage --

and what its effects are. and the overall message is that it doesn't result in job loss. however what alan krueger said in the piece you're referring to is that if we went to there are $15, no international comparisons. that is why i support a $12.00 national federal minimum wage. that is what the democrats in the senate have put forward as a proposal. but i do believe that is a minimum. and places like seattle, like los angeles, like new york city, they can go higher. it is what happened in governor o'malley's state. there was a minimum wage at the state level. and some places went higher. i think that is the smartest way to be able to move forward because if you go to it would be $12, the highest historical average we've ever had. martin o'malley: oh, come on now. yeah, but, yes, it should always be going up. with all due respect to

secretary clinton -- hillary clinton: you would expect a median wage. of course you would do the trial. and you would index it. kevin kooney: you have -- you have given me the perfect segue. we are gonna talk about wall street. but now we've got to go do a commercial. [laughter] [applause] and we're gonna talk about wall street. so hang with us. we begin the second half of the debate. as those who watched the first hour know, our topic is wall street, for those just joining us. welcome. , senator clinton sanders recently said people should be suspect of candidates who received large sums of money from wall street and they

trust me, i will regulate wall street. you have received millions of dollars in contributions. how do you convince voters you will level the playing field when you are indebted to some of the biggest players? hillary clinton: i think it is clear they know that i will. you two billionaire hedge fund managers who started a super pac and our advertising against me in iowa as we speak. so they clearly think i will do what i say are will do. you can look at what i did in the senate. i did introduce legislation to rein in compensation. i looked at ways shareholders would have more control over what was going on in that arena. specifically said to wall street that what they were doing in the mortgage market was bringing our country down. i have laid out a very aggressive plan to reign in wall street not just the big banks. , that's a part of the problem. and i am going right at them. i've got a comprehensive, tough plan. but i went further than that. we have to go after what's called the shadow banking industry, those hedge funds.

look at what happened in '08, aig a big insurance company, lehman brothers, an investment bank helped to bring our economy , down. so i want to look at the whole problem. and that's why my proposal is much more comprehensive than anything else that's been put forth. john dickerson: senator sanders, you've said that the donations to secretary clinton are compromising. so what did you think of her answer? bernie sanders: not good enough. [applause] bernie sanders i mean, you know, : let's not be naive about it. why over her political career has wall street a major -- the major -- campaign contributor to hillary clinton? maybe they're dumb and they don't know what they're gonna get. but i don't think so. here is the major issue when we talk about wall street, it ain't complicated. you got six financial institutions today that have assets equivalent to 56% of the gdp in america. they issue two thirds of the credit cards and one third of

the mortgages. if teddy roosevelt, the good republican, were alive today you know what he'd say? "break them appear coat so i am the only candidate up here that doesn't have a super pac. i'm not asking wall street or the billionaires for money. i will break up these banks, support community banks and credit unions. that's the future of banking in america. john dickerson: quick follow-up because you will get a chance to respond. you said they know what they're going to get. what are they gonna get? bernie sanders: i have never heard a candidate, never, who's received huge amounts of money from oil, from coal, from wall street, from the military industrial complex, not one candidate, go, "oh, these -- these campaign contributions will not influence me. i'm going to be independent." why do they make millions of dollars of campaign contributions? they expect to get something. everybody knows that. once again, i am running a campaign differently than any other candidate. we are relying on small campaign

donors, $750,000 and $30 apiece. that's who i'm indebted to. [applause] hillary clinton: well, scott, scott, wait a minute, wait a minute. answer to impugn my integrity, let's be frank here. bernie sanders: no, i don't. hillary clinton: oh, wait a minute, senator. not only do i have hundreds of thousands of donors, most of them small, i am very proud that for the first time a majority of my donors are women, 60%. [applause] hillary clinton: i represented new york. and i represented new york on 9/11 when we were attacked. where were we attacked? we were attacked in downtown manhattan where wall street is. i did spend a whole lot of time and effort helping them rebuild. that was good for new york. it was good for the economy. and it was a way to rebuke the terrorists who had attacked our country. [applause] so, you know, it's fine for you to say what you're gonna say. but i look very carefully at

your proposal. reinstating glass steagall is a part of what very well could help but it is nowhere near enough. my proposal is tougher, more effective and more comprehensive because i go after all of wall street not just the big banks. [applause] john dickerson: hold on, hold on, he was attacked. bernie sanders: this issue touches on broader issues. it's not just wall street. it's campaigns, a corrupt campaign finance system. and it is easy to talk the talk about ending citizens united. but what i think we need to do is show by example that we are prepared to not rely on large corporations and wall street for campaign contributions. and that's what i'm doing. in terms of wall street i , respectfully disagree with

you in the sense that the issue is when you have such incredible power and such incredible wealth, when you have wall street spending $5 billion over a 10-year. to get deregulated the only , answer that i know is break them up, reestablish glass steagall. john dickerson: senator, we have to get senator o'malley in. along with your answer, how many wall street veterans would you have in your administration? martin o'malley: well, i'll tell you what, i've said this before, i believe that we actually need some new economic thinking in the white house. and i would not have robert rubin or larry summers with all due respect, secretary clinton, to you and to them, back on my council of economic advisors. martin o'malley: if they were architects we'll have an , inclusive group. but i won't be taking my orders from wall street. i was on the front line when people lost their homes, when people lost their jobs.

i was on the front lines as the governor fighting that battle. our economy was wrecked by the big banks of wall street. and secretary clinton, when you put out your proposal on wall street, it was greeted by many as "weak tea." it is not what the people expect of our country. we expect that our president will protect the main street economy from excesses on wall street. and that's why bernie's right. we need to reinstate a modern version of glass steagall and we should have done it already. [applause] governor i know , that when you had a chance to appoint a commissioner for financial regulation you chose , an investment banker in 2010. for me it is looking at what , works and what we need to do

to try to move past what happened in '08. and i will go back and say again aig was not a big bank. it had to be bailed out. and it nearly destroyed us. lehman brothers was not a big bank. it was an investment bank. and its bankruptcy and its failure nearly destroyed us. so i've said if the big banks don't play by the rules i will , break them up. and i will also go after executives who are responsible for the decisions that have such bad consequences for our country. [applause] bernie sanders: look, i don't know -- with all due respect to the secretary, wall street played by the rules. who are we kidding? the business model of wall street is fraud. that's what it is. [applause] and let me make this promise, one of the problems we have had . i think all americans understand it is whether it's republican administrations or democratic administrations. we have seen wall street and

goldman sachs dominate administrations. here is my promise. wall street representatives will not be in my cabinet. [applause] john dickerson: all right, i want to switch to the issues of guns here. secretary clinton, you've said that senator sanders is not tough enough on guns. but basically he now supports roughly the same things you do. so can you tell us some of the exact differences going forward between the two of you on the issue of gun control? hillary clinton: well, i think that there are different records. i know that senator sanders had a different vote than i did -- when it came to giving immunity to gun makers and sellers. that was a terrible mistake. it basically gave the gun lobby even more power to intimidate legislators not just in , washington but across the , country. but just think about this, since we last debated in las vegas nearly 3,000 people have been , killed by guns, 21 mass shootings including one last

weekend in des moines where three were murdered. 200 children have been killed. this is an emergency. there are a lot of things we've got to do in our country. reigning in wall street is certainly one of them. i agree with that. that's why i've got such a good plan. but we have to also go after the gun lobby. 92% of americans agree we should have universal background checks, close the gun show loophole. [applause] clinton: i will do everything i can as president to get that accomplished. john dickerson: secretary clinton, just a quick follow-up. you say senator sanders took a vote on immunity that you don't like. so if he can be tattooed by a single vote and that ruins all future opinions by him on this issue, why then is he right when he says you're wrong vote on iraq tattoos you for offering your judgment?

hillary clinton: i said i made a mistake on iraq. and i would love to see senator sanders join with some of my colleagues in the audience. bernie sanders: let's do more than reverse the immunity. let's see if there is a difference between the secretary and myself. i have voted time and again for the background checks. and i want to see it improved and expanded. i want to see them do away with the gun show loophole. in 1988 i lost an election because i said we should not have assault weapons on the streets of america. we have to do away with the straw man proposal. so somebody who's suicidal or homicidal can get the emergency care they need. i don't know that there's any disagreement here. martin o'malley: oh yes, there is.

i agree with parts of the bill. i am absolutely willing to look at the again. martin o'malley: john, this is another one of those examples. look, we have -- we have a lot of work to do. and we're the only nation on the planet that buries as many of our people from gun violence as we do. in my own state, after the children in that connecticut classroom were gunned down, we passed comprehensive gun safety legislation, background checks, ban on assault weapons. and senator, i think we do need to repeal that immunity that you granted to the gun industry. but secretary clinton, you've been on three sides of this. when you ran in 2000 you said that we needed federal robust regulations. then in 2008 you were portraying yourself as annie oakley and saying that we don't need those regulations on the federal level. and now you're coming back around here. so john, there's a big difference between leading by polls and leading with principle. we got it done in my state by

leading with principle. and that's what we need to do as a party, comprehensive gun control. bernie sanders: all due respect -- i think it's fair to say that baltimore is not now one of the safest cities in america. martin o'malley: saved a lot of lives along the way. bernie sanders: the issue is i believe and i believe this honestly, and i don't know that there's much difference on guns between us but i believe coming from a state that has virtually no gun control i believe that i am in a position to recount of -- reach out to the 60 or 70 percent of the american people who agree with us on those issues. the problem is people all over this country, not you secretary clinton, are shouting at each other. we need to work together where there is broad consensus. there is broad consensus. 92 percent in the most recent poll of americans want gun safety measures.

and 85 percent of gun owners agree. we've got the consensus. what we're lacking is political leadership. and that's what you and others can start providing in the senate. [applause] bernie sanders: yes, i agree. john dickerson: sorry, i'm gonna bring in nancy cordes with a question from twitter about this exchange. >> there is a lot of conversations about guns but also about your conversation on campaign finance. and secretary clinton, one of the tweets we saw -- said that i've never seen a candidate invoke 9/11 to justify millions of wall street donations until now the idea being that, yes, you are a champion of the community after 9/11. but what does that have to do with taking big donations? ms. clinton: well, i'm sorry that whoever tweeted that -- had that impression because i worked closely with new yorkers after 9/11 for my entire first term to rebuild. and so yes, i did know people. i had a lot of folks give me donations from all kinds of backgrounds, say, "i don't agree with you on everything. but i like what you do. i like how you stand up. i'm going to support you."

and i think that is absolutely perfect. mr. sanders: i think the issue is -- i applaud secretary clinton. she did. she's the senator from new york. many of us supported you in trying to rebuild that devastation. but at the end of the day wall street today has enormous economic and political power. their business model is greed and fraud. and for the sake of our economy the major banks must be broken up. martin o'malley: john, i think somewhere between the -- nancy cordes: senator sanders, i'm sorry, so what is it in secretary clinton's record -- that shows you that she's been influenced by those donations? mr. sanders: the issue right now is whether or not we reestablish glass steagall. when you merge large insurance companies and investment banks and commercial banks it was not

going to be good. the issue now is do we break them up? do we reestablish glass steagall? and secretary clinton unfortunately is on the wrong side. hillary clinton: well, i'll tell you who's on my side, paul krugman, the nobel prize winning economist who said my plan for what we should do to reign in wall street was more comprehensive and better. paul volcker, one of the leading lights of trying to reign in the excesses has also said he does not support reinstating glass steagall. so i mean, this may seem like a bit of an arcane discussion. i have nothing against the passion that my two friends here have about reinstating glass steagall. i just don't think it would get the job done. [applause] i am about making sure we actually get results. words,ckerson: final governor o'malley? martin o'malley: john, there is not -- a serious economist who would disagree that the six big banks of wall street have taken on so much power and that all of

us are still on the hook to bail them out on their bad debts. that's not capitalism, secretary clinton. that's crummy capitalism. that's a wonderful business if you let the taxpayers bail you out. but if you place good ones you pocket it. secretary clinton, we need to step up. and we need to protect main street from wall street. you cannot do that by campaigning as the candidate of wall street. i am not the candidate of wall street. i encourage everyone to watching tonight to go online to alley.com and help me wage a campaign. >> we have to go to a commercial and will be right back. >> back in des moines with the candidates. senator sanders, i want to start with you. let's say you're elected president. congratulations.

bernie sanders: thank you. [laughter] [cheering] looking forward to it. [applause] john dickerson: you've said you'll have a revolution. there is a conservative resolution in america. as john boehner knows, and as democrats know who have lost in state houses across the country -- bernie sanders: right. john dickerson: -- those conservatives are watching tonight and probably shaking their heads. the revolution's already happening, but on the other side. bernie sanders: and we are gonna do a political revolution which brings working people, young people, senior citizens, minorities together. because every issue that i am talking about, paid family and medical leave, breaking up the banks on wall street, asking the wealthy to pay their fair share of taxes, rebuilding a fumbling infrastructure, raising the minimum wage to 15 bucks an hour, every one of those issues is supported by a significant majority of the american people. problem is, that as a result of a corrupt campaign finance system, congress is not listening to the american people. it's listening to the big money

interests. what the political revolution is about is bringing people together to finally say, "enough is enough. this government belongs to us, not just the billionaires." john dickerson: senator, a 30-second follow-up. we've heard already tonight that your 92% of support for background checks. let's look at that as an example. if there were something 92% of the public was for, there have been these mass shootings, there was emotional support behind it. bernie sanders: yes. john dickerson: bipartisan support. bernie sanders: yes. john dickerson: the president, the full force of his office. it went nowhere. that's the model you're talking talking about. bernie sanders: what we need is leadership in this country which revitalizes american democracy. and makes people understand that if they stand up and fight back and take on the billionaire class, we can bring about the change that we need. if we are not successful, if we continue the same old same old of washington being run by corporate lobbyists and big

money interests, nothing changes. look, i am very happy in this campaign that we have had rallies with tens of thousands of people, mostly young people. what the polls are showing is that we are absolutely defeating the secretary among younger people. we're giving young people and working people hope that real change can take place in america. that's what the political revolution is about. kathie obradovich: yes. senator sanders, you famously said in the last debate that you were sick and tired of hearing about your damn emails. but then you told the wall street journal that the questions about whether or not secretary clinton's emails compromised classified information were valid questions. is it an issue or is it not? bernie sanders: that's just media fluff. i was sick and tired of hillary clinton's email. i am still sick and tired of hillary clinton's e-mail. the problem is the front pages every day were dealing [?] -- dealing with it.

i didn't know i had so much power. but after i said that, without hearing much about why we have more people in jail than any other country, and wealth inequality. we've gotten off of hillary's emails, good. let's go to the major issues facing america. [applause] kathie obradovich: secretary clinton, your response? hillary clinton: i agree completely. [laughter] i couldn't have said it better myself. look, we need more americans to be involved in the political process. and i give senator sanders a lot of credit for really lighting a fire under many people, young, old, everybody who sees a chance to be involved and have their voice heard. look at what's happening with the republicans. they're doing everything they

can to prevent the voices of americans to be heard. [applause] they're trying to prevent people from registering to vote. so we do need to take on the republicans very clearly and directly. but the other thing i just wanted quickly to say is i think president obama deserves more credit than he gets for what he has gotten done in washington despite the republican oppression. [applause] john dickerson: secretary clinton, just more question on the email question. for democrats, there's an f.b.i. investigation going on. can you satisfy democrats who might worry about another shoe dropping? that you and your staff have been totally truthful to them and that another shoe is not gonna drop? hillary clinton: well, i think after 11 hours that's pretty clear. yeah. [applause] hillary clinton: i do think it's important to do exactly what senator sanders said. and that is to start talking about the issues that the american people really care

about and that they talk to each of us about and to contrast. i mean, there are differences among us. you've heard some of those tonight. i still want to get back to healthcare, because i think that's a worthy topic to explore. but the differences among us pale compared to what's happening on the republican side. and if you listen to what they say, and i had a chance over those 11 hours to watch and listen as well as what i see in their debate, they are putting forth alarming plans. i mean, all of us support funding planned parenthood. all of us believe climate change is real. all of us want equal pay for equal work. they don't believe in any of that. so let's focus on what their election is really gonna be about. [applause] john dickerson: well, race relations is another issue everyone cares about. and we're gonna switch to that now. governor o'malley, let me ask you a question. the head of the f.b.i. recently said, "it might be

possible that some police forces are not enforcing the law because they're worried about being caught on camera." the acting head of the drug enforcement administration said a similar thing. where are you on this question and what would you do if you were president and two top members of your administration were floating that idea? martin o'malley: i think the call of your question is how can we improve both public safety in america and race relations in america understanding how very intertwined both of those issues are in a very, very difficult and painful way for us as a people. look, the truth of the matter is that we should all feel a sense of responsibility as americans to look for the things that actually work to save and redeem lives and to do more of them. and to stop doing the things that don't. from my part, that's what i have done in 15 years of experiences as mayor and as the governor, we restored voting rights to 52,000 people, we decriminalized

possession of small amounts of marijuana. i repealed the death penalty, and we also put in place a civilian review board. we reported openly discourtesy and lethal force and brutality complaints. and i put forward a new agen -- agenda for criminal justice reform that is informed by that experience. so as president, i would lead these efforts and i would do so with more experience and probably the attendance of more gravesites than any of the three of us on this stage when it comes to urban crime, loss of lives. i have learned on a very daily basis that yes indeed, black lives matter. [applause] john dickerson: senator sanders, one of your former colleagues, an african american member of congress said to me recently that a young african american man had asked him where to find hope in life. and he said, "i just don't know what to tell him about being

young and black in america today." what would you tell that young african american man? bernie sanders: well, this is what i would say. and the congressman was right. according to the statistics that i'm familiar with, a black male born today stands a one in four chance of ending up in the criminal justice system. 51% of high school african american graduates are unemployed or underemployed. we have more people in jail today than any other country on earth. we're spending $80 billion locking people up disproportionately, latino and african american. we need very clearly major, major reform in a broken criminal justice system from top to bottom. and that means when police officers out in a community do illegal activity, kill people who are unarmed, who should not be killed, they must be held accountable.

it means that we end minimum sentencing for those people. and it means that we take marijuana out of the federal law as a crime and give space for freedom to go forward with legalizing marijuana. john dickerson: secretary clinton, you told some black lives matter activists recently that there's a difference between rhetoric and activism and what you're trying to do is get laws passed that would help what they were pushing for. recently at the university of missouri, that activism was very, very effective. so would you suggest that kind of activism take place at other universities across the country? ms. clinton: i come from the 60's. there was a lot of activism on campus. civil rights activism, anti-war activism, women's rights activism. and i appreciate the way young

people are standing up and speaking out. obviously, i believe that on a college campus, there should be enough respect so people hear each other. but what happened at the university there, what's happening at other universities, i think reflects the deep sense of, you know, concern, even despair that so many young people, particularly of color have. and i recently met with a group of mothers who lost their children either to killings by police or random killings -- in their neighborhoods. and hearing their stories was so incredibly, profoundly heartbreaking. each one of them, you know, describes their child, had a picture. you know, the mother of the young man with his friends in the car who was playing loud music and, you know, some older white man pulled out a gun and shot him because they wouldn't turn the radio down. or a young woman who had been performing at president obama's second inauguration, coming home

, absolutely stellar young woman, hanging out with her friends in a park, getting shot by a gang member. i met the mothers of eric garner and tamir rice and michael brown and trayvon martin and so many of them who have lost their children. so your original question is the right question, and it's not just a question for parents and grandparents to answer. it's really a question for all of us to answer. every single one of our children deserves the chance to live up to his or her god-given potential. and that's what we need to be doing to the best of our ability in our country. [applause] >> senator sanders, you want to offer free tuition in public universities and colleges. bernie sanders: yes. kevin cooney: a couple questions about this. 53% of those who enroll graduate. first question, you're just throwing a lot of money away if we're looking at a third of these people are not going to complete college.

mr. sanders: it is an extraordinary investment for this country. in germany, many other countries do it already. in fact, if you remember, 50, 60 years ago, university of california, city university of new york were virtually tuition-free. it's not just that college graduates should be $50,000 or $100,000 in debt. more importantly, i want kids in burlington, vermont, or baltimore, maryland, who are in sixth grade or the eighth grade who don't have a lot of money, whose parents may never have gone to college. you know what i want, kevin? i want those kids to know that if they study hard, they do their homework, regardless of the income of their families, they will in fact be able to get a college education. because we're gonna make public colleges and universities tuition-free. this is revolutionary for education in america. it will give hope for millions of young people.

>> one of the things that you want to do is to have the states pay for about a third of this $70 billion plan, correct? there are 16 states that are running budget deficits right now. bernie sanders: well, i think that they're gonna be pretty smart. if i think a lot of states will do the right thing and i think those states that don't will pay a heavy penalty. bottom line here is, in the year 2015, we should look at a college degree the same we look at a high school degree, 50 or 60 years ago. if you want to make it into the middle class, we need plumbers and we carpenters and electricians. that's for sure. but bottom line now is, in america, in the year 2015, any person who has the ability and desire should be able to get an education, college education, regardless of the income of his or his family. and we must substantially lower, as my legislation does, interest rates on student debt. john dickerson: governor o'malley, jump in, yeah. [applause] agree o'malley: i would

with much of what senator sanders says, kevin. i believe that actually affordable college, debt-free college is the goal that we need to attain as a nation. i actually made college more affordable and was the only state that went four years in a row without a penny's increase to college tuition. i respectfully disagree with senator sanders' approach. i believe that the goal should be debt-free college. i believe that our federal government needs to do more on held grants, states need to stop cutting higher education, and we should create a new block grant program that keeps the states in in the game, and we should lower these outrageous interest rates that parents and kids are being charged by their own government, 7% and 8% to go to college? my dad went to college on the gi bill after coming home from japan, flying 33 missions. my daughters went to college on a mountain of bills. but we were proud of them on graduation day. but we're going to be proud every month for the rest of our

natural lives. we can have debt-free college in the united states. ms. clinton: i believe we should make community college free. we should have debt-free college if you go to a public college or university. you should not have to borrow a dime to pay tuition. i want to use pell grants to efray living expenses. i disagree with free college for everybody. i don't think taxpayers should be paying to send donald trump's kids to college. it should be a compact. families contribute, kids contribute, and together, we want to make it possible for our new generation of young people to refinance their debt and not come out with debt in the future. john dickerson: all right, nancy cordes has a question. nancy cordes: back to healthcare by popular demand. first to you, senator sanders. you prefer to scrap obamacare and move to a single-payer system, essentially medicare for all. you say you want to put the private insurance companies out of business. is it realistic to think that you can pull the plug on a $1 trillion industry?

mr. sanders: it is not going to happen tomorrow. and it is probably not going to happen until you have real campaign finance reform and get rid of all these super pacs and the power of the insurance companies and the drug companies. but at the end of the day, nancy, here is a question. in this great country of ours, with so much intelligence, with so much capabilities, why do we remain the only major country on earth that does not guarantee healthcare to all people as a right? why do we continue to get ripped off by the drug companies who can charge us any prices they want? why is it that we are spending per capita far, far more than canada, which is a hundred miles away from my door, that guarantees healthcare to all people? it will not happen tomorrow. but when millions of people stand up and are prepared to take on the insurance companies and the drug companies, it will happen and i will lead that effort. medicare for all, single-payer system is the way we should go.

[applause] nancy cordes: secretary clinton, back in 1994, you said that momentum for a single-payer system would sweep the country. that sounds sandersesque. but you don't feel that way anymore. hillary clinton: well, the revolution never came. and i waited and i've got the scars to show for it. we now have this great accomplishment known as the affordable care act. i don't think we should have to be defending it amount -- among democrats. we ought to be working to improve it and prevent republicans from both undermining it and even repealing it. [applause] i've looked at the legislation that senator sanders has proposed. and basically, he does eliminate the affordable care act, eliminate private insurance, eliminates medicare, eliminates medicaid, tricare, children's health insurance program. puts it all together in a big program which he then hands over to the state to administer. and i have to tell you, i would

not want, if i lived in iowa, terry branstad administering my healthcare. [applause] ms. clinton: i think as democrats, we ought to proudly support the affordable care act, improve it, and make it the model that we know it can be. sanders: we don't eliminate medicare. we expand medicare to all people. and we will not, under this proposal, have a situation that we have right now with the accordable care act. we've got states like south carolina and many other republican states that because of their right-wing political ideology, are denying millions of people the expansion of medicaid that we passed in the affordable care act. ultimately, we have got to say as a nation, secretary clinton, is healthcare a right of all

people or is it not? i believe it is. [applause] >> we have to take a break or the machine breaks down. . >> we begin the final segment of this debate with something none of you saw coming. something quite unexpected. soon after your inauguration, you will face a crisis. all presidents do. what crisis have you experienced in your life that suggest you've been tested and can face that inevitable challenge? secretary clinton, you first. hillary clinton: well, there are so many. i don't know where to start. i guess the one i would pick is the fact that i was part of a very small group that had to advise the president about whether or not to go after bin laden. i spent a lot of time in the situation room as secretary of state and there were many very

difficult choices presented to us. because there was no certainty attached to it. the intelligence was by no means absolute. we had all kinds of questions that we discussed. i recommended to the president that we take the chance to do what we could to find out whether that was bin laden and to finally bring him to justice. it was an excruciating experience. i couldn't talk to anybody about it. in fact, after it happened, the president called my husband, he called all the former presidents. he said to bill, i assume hillary told you about this." and bill said, "no, no, she hasn't." there was nobody to talk to, and it really did give me an insight into the very difficult problems presidents face. martin o'malley: john, i don't think that there is a crisis at the state or local level that

really you can point to and say, i am prepared for the sort of crises that our country has to deal with. but as a mayor and as a governor , i learned disciplines which i believe are directly applicable to that most powerful and most-important-of-all jobs of the united states, president, whose first and primary duty is to protect the people of our country. you learn that threats always change. you learn to create a security cabinet. evaluate and understand the nature of the threats that you are being faced with. i have been tried under many different emergencies. i can tell you that in each of those emergencies, whether they were inflicted by drug gangs, whether they were natural emergencies, i knew how to lead and i knew how to govern because i know how to manage people in a crisis and be very clear about the goal of protecting human life.

[applause] >> senator sanders? mr. sanders: i had the honor of being chairman of the u.s. senate committee on veteran affairs for two years. and in that capacity, i met with just an extraordinary group of people from world war ii, from korea, vietnam, all of the wars. people who came back from iraq and afghanistan without legs, without arms. and i've been determined to do everything that i could to make va healthcare the best in the world, to expand benefits to the men and women who put their lives on the line to defend them. and we brought together legislation, supported by the american legion, the vfw, the dav, vietnam vets, all of the veterans' organizations, which was comprehensive, clearly the best veterans' legislation brought forth in decades. i could only get two republican votes on that. and after 56 votes, we didn't get 60. so what i have to do then is go back and start working on a bill

that was not the bill i wanted. people like john mccain, jeff bill., and work on the it was not the bill i wanted, but it turned out to be one of the most significant pieces of veterans' legislation passed in recent history. you know, the crisis was, i lost [applause] >> all right, senator sanders. we have ended the evening on crisis which underscores what happened last night. let's moved a closing statements, governor o'malley. if you believe that our country's problems, and the threats we face in this world, can only be met with new thinking, new and fresh approaches, i ask you to join my campaign stop go to martinon the -- martinomalley.com.

we will not solve it by returning to the divisive ideologies of our past. threshold of new american progress that will require we act based on our principles. and acting according to our principles and constructing a new foreign policy of engagement, and collaboration. of doing a much better job of identifying threats before they back us into the literary corners -- military corners. provided we have the courage to put forward new leadership that can move us to that more safer space. thank you, very much. [applause] clinton.ary sec. clinton: thank you to

cbs, and everyone here, for giving us a chance to appear before you. i have heard a lot about me in this debate, and i will keep thinking about all of you. i think the president's job is to do everything possible, everything that she can do to lift up the people of this country. [laughter] [applause] starting with our children, and moving forward. trying to entire life figure out how we can even the odds for somebody people in america, in this great country of ours, who are behind. that is what i will do as your president. i will work my heart out. i need youin iowa, to caucus for me. be part of making this country what we know that it should be. [applause] [cheers]

sanders: this country today has more wealth income inequality than any country on earth. we have a corrupt campaign finance system dominated by super pacs. where the only country that doesn't guarantee health care for all people. the highest rate of childhood poverty. and the only country in the world that doesn't guarantee paid family medical leave. that is not the america that i think we should be. in order to bring about the changes that we need, we need political revolution. are going toeople stand up, turn off the tv, get involved in the political bigess, and tell the interests that we are taking back our country. go to berniesanders.com and become part of the revolution.

thank you. [applause] [cheers] >> back with final thoughts. >> as the candidates are thinking each other for a good andte, clinton, sanders, o'malley have two debates in the books with more to come. how did they do, and what is getting the most talked about on twitter? >> our partnership with twitter reveals that the most talked about moments for each candidate. it doesn't mean it is all good, but it is what drove the conversation most. hillary clinton when she defended her integrity on campaign conservations and mentioned 60% are women. for bernie sanders, when he called dwight d. eisenhower a noted socialist. [laughter] big moment was's when he called some okra -- donald trump an immigrant-bashing -- [cheers and applause]

carnival barker. those are the top moments for the three candidates as recorded by twitter. most interesting moments of conversation. >> thank you major garrett, and thanks to all of you for joining us. news will bring you a debate among the republican candidates february 13 from greenville, south carolina. i will have much more on the presidential debates and the paris attacks tomorrow. you can see more postdebate coverage on our 24 hour news network. colleagues, and with the thanks to all the folks here for their hospitality, i am john dickerson. good night.

[applause] >> tomorrow, bernie sanders holds a campaign rally in cleveland. the vermont senator will talk about criminal justice reform, immigration, and money in politics. beginning at 7:00 p.m. et on c-span2. now, more on the 2016 campaign and last night's democratic

residential debate. this is about 25 minutes. joining us now at the table, and jim newll. what were your big takeaways from the debate? it got a little frisky or p are a little more feuds between the candidates. it seems like hillary clinton was able to parry away some of the attacks to avoid truly embarrassing moments. without a clean hit on her, it is probably not likely to change the contours of the race. did you hear anything last

night that gave you a sense of how the campaign will go? clintone heard hillary briefly mentioned she is a child of the 1960's. if there is a younger candidate on the republican side, you will definitely her that come up. calls for our guests, we will begin taking them in a couple of minutes. the phone numbers at the bottom of the screen or you can bring up any topic you like as it relates to the campaign. we look forward to getting you in. send us messages via twitter and we will read at least a few on this segment. bring up the national security issue. it was so front and center and many are those suggest a lot of the dialogue will change now because of paris. a headline in the post says the message is putting pressure on

u.s. presidential candidates. , who is best positioned? aest: you have to look at number of different candidates and how they will portray this as to whether or not they will get people to buy into their messages. there are a number of candidates, the executive experience elected leaders who will be able to more effectively use the national security issue on the republican side to connect with primary voters. ben carsonple like who do not necessarily have that world experience, might struggle to connect on that issue. i think it will heat up the rhetoric on the republican side and i think it is bad news for candidates like trump and carson who do not have a much experience talking about these things are they have been consistent hanging in their lead.

it will also hurt rand paul because he had a very good week. earlier this it will now call into question again his commitment doing military convention. on the democratic side, it clinton,lps hillary even though she is still a little bit questionably -- a little bit questionable for her support for the iraq war early. when senator sandys or governor o'malley would go after her on foreign policy, she was able to deflect quick the by almost with her knowledge of foreign policy. it allowed her to escape situations a little easier. host: it was a big event in orlando.

a lot of candidates. what did you see and hear their that struck you? there were a number of big moments, some of which before the paris a taxpayer before it, that is where we saw ted cruz and marco rubio really start to heat up their squabble over immigration. we saw them go back and forth. it was striking to see ted cruz atto florida and go right him and say, you know, marco tried to implement a massive plan and here i am standing against it with jeff. host: let's go to gym in pennsylvania, a in caller. go ahead. question, in the first hillary clinton took 1000

dollars and turned it into $100,000 in the futures market. was she taking a bribe or laundering money? the second question is in terms of her integrity. if you cannot leave anything she says about the e-mail server or fight information being on it, we are told she is sewed integrity -- so integrity challenged, why would you believe anything she says now? it does not sound like he will necessarily -- hillary clinton either way. there are questions that will come up about her integrity but she has been able to survive that so far. scandalsespite all the she is stills, viewed popularly by democrats. she has persevered through a lot of us is over the years.

i cannot think one item or the other will change that. i think she will connect with voters who may be independent, but in the democratic primary, there is a level of trust gop voters do not have. allied -- on the line now for democrats. ask about the to to thetes and the link campaign. doesn't it take their toll on families and health and it also soundbites. to any candidate will have a range of stuff, useful stand but -- soundbites. it seems to be counterproductive and almost anti-dem of data the way this is conducted. bet: what do you think would

that it for the campaign? caller: six months. host: including the whole primary and general election season? thought itave not through that much. i do not want to just make a statement. this process is way too long for them. is an interesting point and one a lot of people have been making. the important thing to keep in mind is on the republican side, the two people leaving have never held office. in a shorter campaign season, you will not have time to vet them in a way you would secretary denton, who has been in the public eye for so long. it is also important to keep in mind once these voters start casting ballots, it will move much quicker and things will happen where you will see candidates start to drop out and the race will become more defined area it is easy to get

worn out early on because you are just seeing these candidates and no big moment is happening in terms of casting ballots but that will change soon area -- soon. start to witness fatigue and some candidates who may be have not and through this before. speech, about 95 minutes. it seemed like he looked fairly exhausted. maybe he did have complete control over what he wants to say. i do not think it is hard to determine officially how long we can make the campaign. people declare their campaigns earlier, they will still be working, donors will still meet with voters, they will still do the same things you need to do to prepare to run for president. there is never really a stop. it just increases in intensity.

host: kathleen parker in the post talked about trump's iowa meltdown. -- of the us of how things he has said. how stupid are people it in iowa, talking about the fact that carson was leading there. his donald trump having a meltdown? has donethink he himself some damage. it is difficult to say whether ultimately it will impact him that much. none of the marks he has -- remarks he has made that are similar had a substantial impact. it is just a matter of public opinion but talking to people in iowa, you hear them say it is just trump being trump and they give him a longer leash because they believe him to be authentic because his supporters will not turn on him no matter what he says. guest mentioned

vetting and the life of the presidential candidate, i want to play a clip from ben carson on being vetted by the media. mr. carson: first of all, thank you for not asking me what i said in the 10th grade here and i've vitiate that. 10th grade. i appreciate that. [laughter] is, wet of the matter should vet all candidates. i have no problem with being vetted. i do have a problem with being lied about and then putting that out there as truth. [applause] i do not know if they do it with everybody like people on the other side but when i look at people like hillary clinton, who sits there and tells her thatter and government

this was a terrorist attack and then tells everybody else it was a video, where i came from, they call that a lie. [applause] i think that's very different from someone interpreting when i said i was offered a scholarship to west point, those are the words are used. but i have had many people come and say the same thing to me. that is what people do in those situations. we have to start finding out what people really think and what they are made of people who know me know i am an honest person. what do you think? guest: welcome to the presidential race. i think he has never been through this kind of scrutiny before and that would rattle

anyone. there have been questions about his biography, some better than others. is one that said he fabricated a scholarship to west point. it seems like that turned out a little bit more like an embellishment or something they did not describe completely accurately. someone said, we could probably get you into west point. just because it was over so much in the beginning, it allowed carson to say look at what the media is trying to do to me. there were others with his connections with manic tech which offers supplements, what was he doing with this snake oil company and this one, he will it complete propaganda he had any relationship to them and it

wasn't. anditched videos for them gave speeches. was a relationship that lasted a long time. he is so well-liked by the republican base, it is hard for the criticisms to break through. the wall street journal, he says, is not a respected paper anymore. what happened this week? criticize his economic policies, seeming to imply that the ttp, the obama administration's transpacific hardship trade agreement, did have some involvement with china directly. so he does not think they are a respected publication anymore. pulitzer prize winner just last year. what we will see is these candidates attacking the media because it is a line that scores well with republican voters. someone like ben carson to come out and the adamantly opposed to

it, it makes sense. realize if he to is going to make his personal votershis personality, caucus to vote for ben carson, he has to realize they will go after him for it and challenges policies. donald trump did tweet wsj editorial is wrong again. go ahead, please. caller: i have a few things to say. the united states needs to clean up their backyard before they start to clean up other people's that yards. violence is violence or they need to figure out a different way to take care of the problems instead of with violence.

also, our young people, graduating from high school, some of them illiterate. they go to work at eight dollars an hour. and have to take care of themselves. you to have businesses promoting education for energy, --hnology, electronics, younger generation staff who in fact don't even vote. then we spent the areas of dollars a year on incarceration and not rehabilitation. then when they do get out of prison, they set them up for because they cannot follow the rules they set for them. like i said, i think the united states of america needs to clean up their own backyard before

they start cleaning everyone else's. cleaninghy laying out out our own backyard, speaking of domestic issues we have been talking about foreign policy. how will the candidates balance the two moving forward? somethingwill be important to watch. i definitely saw the frustration from the young people who are not able to provide for themselves in a way other people have the opportunity to do in the past. listening to candidates talk right now, you have got to be listening closely to what they're talking about, a lot has been put on ben carson's personal story. we have seen him say completely different things and reverses vision on the minimum wage. that is a position that will impact the other people. economic ladder out of places where opportunities do

not exist where they do elsewhere. it is a relation issue and i think it will become more pronounced as it gets closer to voting and voters take serious home, domestic issues, more seriously. it has not happened yet. there are a lot of different points in the last call. i think it is interesting at least in terms of, she mentioned how people came out of prison and cannot get a job. this is the first presidential election. a prominent issue, talking about helping youngand people who have criminal records to get jobs. it will be interesting to see how long this can last because whenever there is a bit of violence in the city, it tends to make people retrench a little bit. it will be interesting to see how long this unfolds. it is also interesting last night to see in the debate about

secretarym wage, clinton disagreed with sanders and o'malley saying she is for a federal $12 minimum wage. raise $15 ifs can they wish. she seemed to get away with that pretty well. calling now from manchester in the u.k. welcome to the program. caller: how are you doing? very good. i want to ask about donald trump's recent comment. recently, he suggested people within the theater and some people around the stadium word --were concealed carry.

if you look at the figures, between europe and the united states, you are more likely to be shot in the united states and you are injured -- in europe. you're talking about hundreds of thousands around the atlantic. does that make donald trump pretty stupid in front of the national community and the think it will also play out well among domestic audiences as well? thanks for calling. he says the paris massacre would have been much different if people had guns. what do you think? isst: his intended audience not the national community right now. in an election, maybe he will look more that way but at this point he is trying to connect with gop primary voters, people who do support concealed carry. think thatnd carrying a gun would have prevented those things. he is saying the things he knows his audience wants to hear,

whether or not that hurts him internationally, i do not think he much cares. it is important to keep in mind this tragedy is still unfolding. we do not know all the details yet. be difficult to know what could or could not have prevented it because we do not know all the facts on the ground about what specifically happened and what led to it and what could have prevented it. host: how much will guns be out there a band front in the rest of the campaign? will it be there a lot? guest: it will because that is an issue where hillary clinton feels she can differentiate herself from sanders. debates where bernie sanders, from a rural state, and therefore he has a little bit of a looser viewing gun control than where the democratic party is right now, in each debate when he seems to try to explain

the past vote, the crowd is not with him. hillarysomething clinton has brought up relentlessly and will keep bringing up whenever she needs to get a little separation. host: there is a tweet for you -- in the first debate? i did not write the piece on the first debate. thought she seems to be the smoothest on the stage in the first debate and seemed to have the best understanding of the issues, even if maybe she said some things that were not consistent with her previous positions. she does tend to change with the times. she seemed she was most comfortable in that setting. last night, it was a little more difficult for her. both are o'malley and centers coming after her pretty hard at especially on foreign

policy. she did not seem to have her for howwers in place her record as secretary of state may have led to where the middle east is right now. those are things she will have to work on. at least in the first debate, she did show why people like turn the first place. she had some good experience. to throw this tweet your way, who has the most policy that, answer the question in my question is, does it matter? guest: four republican voters, it does not matter. maybe it will when casting but trump ballots, and carson do not have experience and they are putting forward them now and it contradicts things they said in the recent past just a few months ago. the most policy

expertise, people who have been in the senate, they are first-term senator's and you have to look of the governors. jeb bush is probably the governor who has around the longest in republican mind. in this anti-incumbent year, though jeb bush is not incumbent , it w