in one direction or another. clarke: i think it was a tragedy for the court to step into this issue prematurely and to take over the issue for the last 42 years, and to try to be the national abortion control board. it has failed in that task, and the best thing the court can do is to return the issue to the american people. where public -- to the american people, where public opinion, and public policy would be allowed to be more in sync, and that would, i think, alleviate a lot of the tension on the issue, and restore public opinion to its rightful place in determining the outcome of this issue. host: we are at the final moments of our landmark cases series. thank you so much for being with us throughout the 12 cases. the series is archived on our website, c-span.org. you can find it easily under the series. we have all of the video from each of the 12 programs there for you, including the other videos that did not make it into

the television production, visits to historic sites and oral histories from people involved in these cases. you can also read all of the opinions and hear audio on our website. finally, if you would like to have "landmark cases" on your bookshelf, written by tony mauro w, that's also available and we can get it out to you very quickly. thanks to our two guests tonight for being with us. we learned more about the background and the importance of the roe vs. wade in 1973. thank you for your expertise. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

[captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] you can want all 12 programs and learn more on c-span.org. you can also order the landmark cases book, featuring background, highlights of the case. written by veteran journalist tony mauro. is availableses" for $8.95 plus shipping. three days of featured programming this holiday season on c-span.

republicangressional leaders honoring dick cheney at the capital with the unveiling of a marble bust. when the vice president had his critics go off the deep end, he asked lynne, his wife, does it bug you when people refer to be as darth vader? she said, no. it humanizes you. quest saturday night at 8:30 -- >> saturday night at 8:30 ea stern. chief.ton dc police >> most people get defensive if they feel like you are being offensive. andg very respectful requested is not a crisis. request versus demand.

those things change the dynamic a little bit. >> sunday afternoon at 2:00, race and the criminal justice system with white house senior adviser valerie jarrett and others. at 6:30, mark warner, former versus -- former vice president al gore, and author anne-marie slaughter. >> i think helping is not actually taking the burden off. you are still figuring out what needs to be done and you are him to help. if we're going to get to where , fully equal coparents pulled -- four equal coparents. first -- our full schedule, go to c-span.org. coming up next, a discussion on improving the u.s. prison

system. that come a look at what can be done to address the israeli-palestinian conflict. later, leaders from several muslim organizations discuss ways to improve anti-muslim attitudes in the u.s.. >> we are back with jeff smith, ,uthor -- author of this book "mr. smith goes to prison." how did you end up in prison? >> in 2004, i was running in congress in a 10 way primary. -- the front runner father had been governor and his mother had been senator. we were way behind, but over the course of the campaign, we put together a nice operation. we were building momentum. about a month before election day, a man approached to my campaign aides and said that he a postcardut out

highlighting his dismal attendance record. instead of telling my aides that they should be going with outside parties, i said, i don't want to know the details. they asked if i should give them the voting record? -- don'ton't tell the ask me what to do. if you bestow, i had a press conference and highlighted his voting record. day, it did come out, saying the same things i said before. i sign a false affidavit denying and knee -- denying any advance knowledge about that postcard. five years later, that postcard got picked up by the feds -- the guy who did that postcard got picked up by the feds.

when they came to me, i stuck to my story from five years earlier. unfortunately, my best friend wore a wire for about two months and got me to admit that the affidavit was false. why did your best -- >> wind your best friend do that? eff: he was compromised in part of the investigation and wanted to stay out of prison. >> what were the charges against you? jeff: obstruction of justice and five years later, standing by that. >> where did you go to prison? jeff: just to be clear, the false affidavit was based on the underlying charge, which would have been illegal, i guess, coordination with a third-party, which is the kind of thing that is a little more routine these days in the wake of citizens united and free speech now. anyway, i was sentenced to a iear and a day at fc

manchester. >> what kind of prison is that? jeff: there were two prisons on the compound. there was a minimum-security prison where he lived and there was a medium security prison where i worked. host: did you serve that one year and one day? jeff: i was a little bit short of that. that extra day is actually a gift from the judge. if you get more than a year, you are eligible for a 15 year reduction -- a 15% reduction in your sentence if you don't misbehave drastically. i got 10.5 months. host: so that judge sends a message by giving you one year and one day? but she also sent a message by sending me to prison. she wanted to send a message to other politicians, that if you are caught up in something, you

had better cooperate with the fed's. the federal government was interested in other politicians in missouri who were higher on the food chain. wrongdoingare of any and they pressed me to tell them various things. i think part of the prosecution any otherage to politicians. host: what was your reaction on your first day of entering the prison system to a state senator being in prison? jeff: i walked into the intake room, and a woman who was sort of a heavyset woman, i guess she was a nurse, she asked me height and weight. i said 5'6", 117. she said, education level?

i said, phd. she said what is your last employment? >> i said, state senator. she said, if you want to play games, you can play games all you want. sort of disbelief at why was there. many of the fellow prisoners couldn't believe that i didn't steal money. they kept asking me to buy the things at the commissary and asked how many million i stole to get there. it was kind of hard to explain to them that i got there because of a postcard. host: your nickname in prison? jeff: first was senator and the other was white chocolate. i played a lot of basketball there and i had a style of play that appealed to some of the prisoners. host: what did you do in prison? jeff: i spend 40 hours a week working at the warehouse.

we unloaded about 40,000 pounds of food a day. actually, we didn't unload that much but you have to move all of the food into these giant freezers and move the other food out and put the new food in the back. the rice, beans, flour, sugar comes in 100 pound bags. the bulk of my day was in the warehouse working. in the evenings, i would play basketball. sometimes lift weights. on littledown notes scraps of paper just to remember what was happening in case i wanted to write a book afterwards. host: that got you in trouble though? jeff: the captain of the prison, who is sort of the number two guy. he is not the awarded, but he is sort of like the dean of discipline. he approached me early in my tenure when he found out that i was jotting down the notes. he gave me the business and

accuse me of breaking prison rules. he said that i was illegally conducting business in the prison because he suspected i was going to make money off a book. i explained that i wasn't going to make any money while i was doingand nothing i was was illegal according to the prison handbook. he told me that my interpretation didn't really matter. he threatened to throw me in the hole for six months while he investigated me. about an hour later, i got my work assignment, working in the prison warehouse. i think in the prison's view, that would be a good way to occupy my time. the other six guys who worked in the warehouse with me come as you can see if you look on the back of the book -- with me, as you can see if you look on the ed 230,,the book, weigh 250, 270, 315 pounds.

it was a running joke that i worked doing the heavy lifting. host: just to clarify, when he said he would party which is a whole, he met solitary confinement -- he would throw you into the hole, he met solitary confinement? jeff: yes. host: there seems to be some movement on prison reform. we ask -- we welcome your calls and comments here for mr. smith, a former state senator. here are the lines -- fourth line this morning for those of you who have experience in the prison system, either side of it. start dialing in, phone lines are open. your job, moving the food, thousands of pounds of food,

taught you something about how the prison system works. tell that story. lesson i learned -- i guess the first day of my 10 year i was told by my supervisor, who worked at the prison, that i could do anything i want pretty much as long as i didn't steal. i needed to get my work done and she would feed me some extra food and all the prisoners would get some extra scraps. that first day, i saw everybody else saran wrapping green peppers and bites of chicken before they went home. if you days later, i was told by another prisoner that my colleagues were going to plant raw meat in my freezer jacket. i asked why? he explained that getting caught with raw meat was one of the biggest offenses you can make in

prison. because of the threat of e. coli. prisoners are all bodybuilding and they want as much protein as they can get. romney is very valuable and can be cooked. meat is very valuable. or evenpotentially harm killed dozens of people on the compound. i was told that one of my colleagues with plant raw meat in my jacket because they thought i was a snitch. they thought i was a snitch because i was the only one who wasn't stealing. i had to make a decision to start stealing food in order to fit in and not face the potentially severe consequences. host: if you had been caught stealing, what would have happened? jeff: i would have probably been given a new charge, gotten more

years in prison, and maybe had a higher, maybe maximum-security prison. i think if i was dealing bananas, green peppers, onions, i might get some time in the shoe, but i wouldn't get a new charge and they would get transferred. the downside of getting caught with raw meat was so large that i didn't feel like i could risk that. the other prisoners stole because they need a hostile. -- theyveryone -- need a hustle. most prisoners don't have a penny to their name. they have gotten all of their belongings and savings taken away because of aphid -- because of asset forfeiture laws. they come into prison and have to find a way to afford the basics. do you order it, toothpaste, tooth brush. have to buy them at prices that are marked up 40% to 50% on the street.

i made five dollars for a five $5.25.-- i made that is a monthly wage. if you come in with no money -- the phone calls cost about $1.50 per minute. if you want to stay in touch with anyone at home or have a halfway decent life in prison, you're going to have to find a hustle. these prisoners, their hustle was to steal food and then sell it when they got back to the art. host: how much money did they get? jeff: it is complicated. cigarettes or stamps are the currencies in prison. , with connections on the outside, might wire money into a different prisoner's account as a way to purchase a large amount of goods from a prisoner who is stealing

something. the way it works on the prison yard through stamps and cigarettes. the way that money is supplemented is if someone has a lot of money stored away on the -- hee, you can have his can have his money wired into another prisoner. host: all of this breaks the rules of prison. what kind of culture do we have in our american prison system? jeff: that is one of the main arguments of the book, that prison doesn't do anything really to rehabilitate most fact, itnd in reinforces a lot of the rules, or the mainstream economy. one of the key ways is exactly what we are talking about. they are always working to develop a hustle. first of all, it creates an amazing capacity for entrepreneurial ingenuity on the .art of the prisoners

i saw prisoners who were running all types of businesses. bookies, guys running tattoo who madealso prisoners money helping write legal briefs , the jailhouse lawyers. they were prisoners who drew pictures, portraits of other hildren or mothers or wives that they could send home on birthdays or holidays. there were all types of businesses ranging from the totally legal to the totally illegal. the worst, in the eyes of the prison, were those guys who smuggled in contraband. drugs or pornography or other things that could be dangerous. host: it almost sounds like entrepreneurship. jeff: it was. the most lucrative offer i got was to help smuggle in a duffel bag that was full of some items that would carry a lot of value on the compound. of course, i declined doing that.

after some prisoners sobbing me on the basketball court, they said, you're really fast. you can probably get to the edge of the compound and back in 45 seconds. we'll give you several hundred dollars for doing that. i was not even the least bit tempted. host: david in lafayette, louisiana. independent. caller: what are your plans for the future? jeff: that's for the question and for calling in. of public professor policy at the new school in new york city. i teach students getting their master degrees or doctorate in urban or public policy. i also work in missouri on affordable housing policy and i am an advocate for criminal justice reform. i speak around the country on the issue and i am on the boards of several nonprofits that are fighting to improve conditions

inside presence. , northennis in lewisburg carolina. experience in the prison system, tell us how. you have experience in the prison system? what was your experience? caller: i think pretty much everything he just said pretty much sums it up. it is not meant to reform or give opportunity so much. there are opportunities to go to school and do different things, but when your main objective is surviving. i am a little white guy, so a little bit different when you have gangs running the prison system and i am trying to not rely on the -- basically, in order for me to survive without hustling, it causes my family to go further down. i complete my family's work to send me money to where they are

just like, this guy is costing me all this money. you have to look at it from all the aspects of what happens in there. ,hen you are forced to hustle at the same time, it ends up pushing the poor deeper and deeper into a whole -- into a hole. they feel like they have already used up their resources. and youptation comes -- of course, family wants to help somebody in need but you don't want to continue taking from them. jeff: i totally sympathize with what you say about prisons lack of realization -- lack of

rehabilitation. there were three courses offered when i was there. hydroponics, how to cook tomatoes -- how to grow tomatoes. there was a ged course offered. third, there was computer skills . we were told to go in and sign it. once we did, we sat at a computer and the correctional officer ordered us to push the button on the bottom right and turned the computer on. we did that and that we sat in silence for over a half hour. a half hour later, he said, "all right, remember that button on the bottom right, push it again and then get back to your cell." that means we sat there for no reason, our prison could send our sign in sheets to the

federal bureau of prisons and and -- and receive a stipend for these prisoners. most of these guys there knew nothing, had never worked on a computer in their life, and were going out totally unprepared to find a job online. host: is there any way to complain when you're in the pretty -- in the prison system and what was the reaction to the book? jeff: complaining can get you in a lot of trouble. there are different forms. there is a form called the bp- 10, which you have to fill out to file a formal complaint. the minute you start filing those, you are instantly tagged as someone who is trouble. what they often do is send you to something called diesel therapy. that means you're going to get on a bus, handcuffed with your legs and your arms, and you're going to be going bust to bus to for 6, 8, the country

10 months. no one is going to know where you are, your family can't write you, you can't make phone calls. that is what they do to prisoners who they consider to be instigating. usually, people want to avoid that lifestyle. every time you go to a new holding pen in a different city, there are new gangs in control, new people you have to figure out how to get -- how to fit in with. that is the central challenge of prison, at the last caller said, surviving. that is what happens when you complain. reaction to your --host: reaction to your book? incarcerated,was most of the prisoners were amused by it. when they would do something funny, they would say, "make sure you put that in the book."

whoe were a couple co's derided the book. every time they saw me jotting something down, they would make fun of me. thankfully, we have come a long way in the past five years and people in this country are starting to pay attention to the horrors of our prison system. host: the book is "mr. smith goes to prison." it is about a former missouri case senators more than a year behind bars. the sentence was one year and a day. our topic this morning is criminal justice reform. a lot of debate in washington over whether or not that can happen and and how. we've turned to viewers with questions and comments for mr. smith.

we have a republican on the line , james. good morning. >> first of all, think you. furnituremall manufacturing company and we hire ex-offenders. we are very public about that and i think more business owners should do that. i spent -- one spent seven years in the hole for violence. most of us could not handle that threee three dear -- days. you he about pelican bay in california, people are spending a lot of time there. some, 20 years. there are state reforms coming across the board, but do you know of any, not tax breaks but any focus of the government's to

toourage business owners hire ex-offenders. we can contribute to helping guys just recently released. the two things that hold them back in life is the inability to sacrifice for the common good and their inability to deal with frustration, often there to -- their two reasons for going to prison. >> most of gotten rid of solitary confinement. judges have called it slow-motion torture. you can see the effects of that in our prisons. you talk about re-entry. over 60,000 people come out of our prisons every year. 95% of people in prison are going to come back to society. like i said, every year that

means over 650,000 people come back to america's doorsteps. the same places they have failed reform. now they have the added stigma of a prison record. most of them have no money, no capacity to earn money because of the lack of training in prisons. we know that every bit of money we spend in prisons can save us on recidivism if we spend the dollars wisely on vocational training. yet, we do that in very few prisons. it is a big problem. ofdo not do a good job dealing with anger management issues and prison. there were no mechanisms, no counseling in that regard. these are big issues. what is the government doing? well, there is a small tax credit available to employers who hire ex-offenders.

this is going to have to come from employers around the country. i never thought i would the on kochvision raising the brothers. but they are going to try to hire more ex-offenders. an array of companies have made the same decision. particular in oregon, called dave's killer bread is hiring over one third of their employees as ex-offenders. they are training other employers on how to hire and retain ex-offenders. there is a lot of positive energy. i encourage you to look up the dave's killer bread foundation for more information on how to get engaged. and i thank you for hiring people who were formerly incarcerated. >> when you got out of prison, how hard was it for you to find a job?

advantage had every over most people coming out of prison. i was highly educated with a phd from a great university. hundreds of people had written to the da on my behalf requesting clemency for me, including the state attorney general, the mayor of st. louis. i had suffered those serious physical trauma while incarcerated and no psychological trauma. and, i was white. i really had every advantage relative to most people coming out of prison. in juno what? my first job interview, i sat around a table with a group who wanted to hire a consultant to help with affordable housing policy in missouri, and the person who asked me a question on the board asked, why should we be the group to take a hit

for hiring you? we know you would do great. we are the best person we can find and we will not offer you much money. but if we hire you, the newspapers will write ugly stories about us. why not we let someone else sorry you and once you have the stench of you, we will hire you next year. that hurt. getting the first job was so hard. i am think will to my first employer, the missouri were first housing association for being willing to be open-minded and overlook my background. >> that salary offer was a lot less they and you would have been offered if you had not gone to prison. >> the man who first called me told me after our first phone call, he told me, after i think him, he said look, this is not pity. i am calling you because had you left the senate under different circumstances i would've had to 20 times moreo

than i did. as i did, i was incredibly lucky to find work. the majority of people coming out of prison are unemployed when you're later. the main reason they re-offended within three years, is financial struggle. we should not be surprised. nine out of 10 employers perform background checks, four out of 10 landlords do the same. most will not hire or rent to people with a terminal back on. until we change those policies, we will probably continue to see sky-high recidivism rates. >> those giving jobs to ex-convicts, and do they pay enough? >> most ex-consul have to take pretty low-paying jobs when they first come out. most employers tell me nobody works harder in my company then

people fresh out of prison. they are so grateful to have a job they work there tail off and are loyal. they want to prove themselves. that is the response i am getting from around the country. >> we will go back to callers. lake station, indiana. republican. good warning. >> actually, i consider myself independent but that is neither here nor there. i was in officer and a professional counselor with the indiana department of corrections. i hear everything you're saying and agree with most of it. i think you might find different experiences in different prisons as far as programming goes, but also it is funding-related and that can change depending upon public perception, legislature, and so on.

my question to you, mr. smith, a couple questions actually. say your view on the prison system was before going in as opposed to coming out? when you are talking about the culture of the hustle and everything where it is a system to reinforce its value, having gone through it, what would you, if you were in the house again, due to combat that? to try and reverse a? on a more personal note, how would you go about your relationships with the staff and other inmates? >> thank you. you asked about my views before and after. before, when i was in the senate and missouri i worked a lot on criminal justice. i represented one of the poorest districts in the state. our district had many people who

were incarcerated. one of my accomplishments i was proudest of of as a senator was passing a bill that changed most convictions for criminal non-support, men who struggle to pay child support after they have been laid off from a job, changing the penalty from a felony to a misdemeanor in many cases and changing it from a crime that merited jail time to one that got an alternative sentence, whereby men would go to parenting classes, vocational training, substance abuse counseling, whatever they needed. i supported reform before i got there. i definitely had my eyes opened when i arrived. you talk about the has slain. hustling.k about the there is not a single concept you learn in a college that you could not earn in prison.

territorial expansion, risk management, barrier to entry, every one of these concepts you learn in school, you can learn through the lens of the drug trade. maybe 35 percent or so had been successful drug dealers on the outside. they are capitalist. what could improve things? more togot to do nurture this entrepreneurial talent in prison. nonprofits couple doing this. one is the prison entrepreneurship program. based in texas. they do an eight-month-long business school course for inmates incarcerated in prison there. over the last 11 years, and the recidivism rate of their graduates is just 6%, less than 1/10 of the national rate. there is a ton of attention for guys incarcerated to be successful entrepreneurs or

employees on the outside. you asked about my relationship with -- and of course, another policy, we have got to put more support and place for people coming out of prison. giving them $50 and sending them to a halfway house in the same community where they failed before, with the same connections that got them in trouble before, is not going to help anyone. in denmark and other countries, the minute you going to prison, they ask you, what are your skills, how can we build on those skills for the next five years so that when we put you out, you do not struggle economically and you can get a gainful employment so you never come back here? that is why in a lot of western european countries, the recidivism rate is less than one quarter than it is in the united states. more training inside a prison. last, you ask about my relationship with the co's.

there were a lot two were probably decent people. sorry if you thought i painted with too broad of a brush in the book, but my experience was most of them were not very nice. a couple were pretty cruel. sadly, the one or two that were halfway polite or respect all, if you got talking to them or if you got caught talking to them too much, you are instantly suspected of being a snitch will stop so it was really hard to have any decent relationship with one. >> here is a tweet. congress does not want to or reform theelp prison system because it would cost a lot of money. >> it would. not to doshort-cited so. investing in vocational training is one of the smartest investments we could make in the country. if we could cut our recidivism rate is 10%, and the brand

corporation put out -- the rand corporation put out a recent study. 43% reduction in recidivism for prisoners who completelly high-quality education programs. that would save us billions of dollars every year in the revolving door. that is where we should focus. >> what you think about this headline, president obama commuted sentences to nearly all incarcerated for drug-related crimes. >> i am ambivalent. i would like to see him pardon more than two people. commuting sentences is one thing, but even if you commute their sentence, these guys still have the staying of a criminal criminalain of a background. instead of 95 commuted and to pardoned, i would rather see 95 pardoned and to commuted.

an expeditedto see program, right now there are thousands of federal prisoners applying for reduced sentences based on a direct if that attorney -- former attorney general eric holder game. those appeals are taking so long to get through the system that the president may be out of office before most of them are even dealt with. we have to put our staff, more the department of justice to make sure those are examined. joseph, independent, california. hello. >> hello, mr. smith. aboutd like to tell you when you become tainted in the law. take part in the law, simply dead. not even legal.

article one, section nine and 10 of the state legislature and adderall congress. they do them all the time. -- and once you finish your time, it is over. >> joseph, great point. we ask prisoners who come home to reintegrate into society and to be contributing members. the one thing that is most important, in many states you are not even allowed to do. there are many ways in which the stain of a dozen record hurts you. whether you talk about prison, owning a gun. i am not sympathetic to that argument. it stays with you for life in many cases. i agree with you that goes against everything this country should be about. in no realm do i feel stronger

and that -- about that then derailment of voting. the first thing we should do when everyone comes hamas tried engaged.em civic lee -- civic lee gage. -- the way to do that is to say, here is your franchise back. newtown, north dakota. democrat. good morning. >> good morning. smith, when you went into prison, i am sure it changed to a lot. coming out, i am sure you inc. back. -- you'd think back. i am sure you got lonely, no one to converse with. who was the main person when you were in prison that had an effect on you.

even though they probably would not be getting out of prison anytime soon. -- who really interested you more? >> that is a great question. there was a guy who worked with me at the warehouse. ky.name was he was the prison inmate supervisor. he overheard a conversation between me and another is now one time about me and my former best friend to had worn the wire on me. i still resented my friend. he came up to me and he told me that his brother-in-law had told the feds and were his stash of drugs were. he told me for the first four or so years and risen he woke up

every day thinking about how he was going to kill his brother-in-law. he spent all day every day thinking about how he would do it and then he could not sleep at night because every time he went fall asleep he would dream or have nightmares about strangling his brother-in-law. he said one day, after a few years, he realized he was going to kill himself if he did not change. he decided he was going to forgive his brother-in-law and to do the rest of his time. he told me that i would have to do that, otherwise the betrayal would stay with me and make me an angry, bitter person and i would not be able to go on with my life. that day, i made an effort to do that and i did give my friend. he was exactly right. every day since then, just as it was for him, has been a little easier than the day before and the day before that.

a wisdom inside prison. that calling of mine in the warehouse, there was just one location. there were many times when the if he had gained after doing a decade in prison was incredibly valuable to me. >> what was the reaction from your family when you told them you are going to prison? >> my mom's instant reaction was, didn't i tell you not to go into politics? how many times did i tell you? my dad asked me if i needed help to get a lawyer. and, my mom was right. she told me and my very first race, this is ridiculous. you have business running for congress. you should finish or phd in be a professor. my mom's reaction was a little bit of i told you so. >> in your small life, you write about you had a girlfriend and the time the f ei not on your door. what was happening? >> two days before the feds

knocked on my door, my then-girlfriend had moved in. my parentst to house, after i found up my friend had been wearing the wire, i went to my parents house and told them and then i went to my girlfriend workplace. she came out to the car and i told her. she thought i was joking at first. because i like to play practical jokes. i told her no, look, i am going to have to go to prison. this is not what you signed up or. if i were you, i would go to my house tonight and get your boxes. she had not unpacked yet. take them back. i will not come home tonight so you can do that in peace without me looking of your shoulder if you like. she told me, that is ok. i want you to come home tonight. i'm not going anywhere. she and i now have a four-year-old son and a two-year-old daughter. good morning, teresa.

>> hello, senator smith. for a worked non-for-profit for 35 years. i was working on a grant program for the formerly incarcerated criminal release program. i wish i had about two or three hours to speak to you. i just finished reading "a country called prison." most suicidest, in prison happen in solitary confinement. inhumane. the folks i recorded for the grant program came out traumatized. i wish i had all the numbers here in front of me. up the mentally 2.3 million folks are in prison, and jails. -- approximately 2.3 million folks are in prison and jails.

the nonviolent. especially drug-related. i do not think that is a criminal offense, it is an illness or disease. i look at the people in prison, when they come out, senator, i want to approach this from a cost standpoint. with that many people in jails and prisons. ,hen people get too old to work what type of retirement benefits are they going to get from social security? where do they go? do they go on the entitlement programs and public assistance? of our going to backlog country because we know the entitlement programs are not sustainable now. there are so many issues at stake here, when you think about , the cost perfeed person is staggering. i can go at about 20 different directions right now but i would like to get your thoughts.

i have gotten a few listening to you this morning, about what does the system get you? gary, i am going to have to have you turn up your tv, but the phone down, listen to our guest. >> thank you for calling in gary, from brooklyn. you are right about the cost. once the system get you, it does not let go of you. one of the fastest-growing cohorts in our prison systems seniorer of aarp, citizens. there is something scholars have identified, criminal menopause. most prisoners, once they are about 50-years-old or so, they are highly unlikely to re-offense. that is particularly true of violent offenders. those who may have committed an offense that was violent before they were fully develop.

once they do 20, 25, 30 years in prison, and they've not had violence in prison, the chances they will actually re-offended are infant is small. are small.-- their health needs are huge. many of them cost six figures per year. absolutely no sense. we really need to look at it as a country, aging in prison. smartly releasing people back into their communities who are highly unlikely to reoffend. yes, people come out and eventually will get social security. they will participate in our entitlement programs like anyone else. the problem is because of the lack of training inside prison and the lack of support when they get out, they will spend

their 40's and 50's and early 60's contributing to that program. theiry will not spend 40's and 50's and early 60's contributing to that program. >> what are your thoughts on for-profit prisons. it regard potential reform from legislatures? >> for-profit prisons do something that is pretty insidious. cases, they entered the contracts with states, counties, prisones that ensure the be filled up to say 95% for the next 20 or 25 years. that means that even if crime plummets in a community or state, even of sentencing reform reduces the length of terms, that county or that jurisdiction is going to have to figure out a way, they are contractually obligated to fill those prisons

no matter what. can you think of a bigger disincentive? then being contractually obliged to fill prison beds? this country should not have -- should not allow private prisons in general. we definitely should not allow counties to tie their own hands by entering into such contracts. iso not think private prison bad, public prison is good. very similar structural incentives. the last chapter is entitled, "see you next year." co wouldhat this one tell everyone leaving. you would say, it is guys like you remind me i will always have a job. job security. that is a publicly run prison. very similar to what happens in

private prisons, and we should not lose sight of that will stop >> amy, tell us your story. >> i identified as independent. my experience is that i am a nurse that works at a jail into i am also a professor who teaches mental health nursing. the i see a lot of is, how nurse said, you will fit in here because there are a lot of people here who think they are jesus christ. mental serious personal illness. that person has a delusion. what i see is people who are suicidal and mentally ill. nothing else to do with them but to put them in what we would call a padded cell. that is not therapeutic. the only thing we can do that keeps them safe is doing the more harm than good. the other thing is the drug use. or drugpeople coming in

offenses have serious drug addiction issues. . work at a county jail we see people short-term. they say there is no need for drug treatment programs because it is such a short-term state. less than one year. i know stuff gets smuggled into prisons. but i cannot see -- do you think people could really carry on an addiction in prison? i know they cannot use drugs, but to have the series using, 10 or 12 bags a day, was it your experience people can use that much? >> drugs were readily available. i talked tovisitors have been incarcerated in other places said they could get what they needed. the is smuggling. at the levely not they could do it is frequently

as they had on the outside, but your point is taken. we have to do more drug counseling. we have to see this more as a public health issue and have treatment is the ladies we put towards rather than just incarcerated them for being drug users. you are right, solitary does nothing to a million rate these problems. liorate the issue. it exacerbates them. we also have to talk about rape inside prisons. people are sexually assaulted every single year in prisons, more than the number who are raped outside of prison every year. the way we tolerate this kind of rape culture, our attitude and particularly, a lot of people who work in corrections, not all, but some, view it as headache, you know what?

if you did the crime than whatever happens to you in prison, you probably deserve it. that is a horrible view of things, but it is also incredibly myopic. because in a lot of cases, the same men who are rape inside of resin come out of prison and dark disproportionately likely to try to reclaim the manhood that was stolen from them in the same violent way once they come out. so, it has a terrible impact on public safety to it has a terrible impact on safety. the federal government is not even enforcing the most basic tenets of ensuring that every state report the number of rapes that happen in prison every year. until we know the scope of this program, we cannot address it. we have a long way to go. >> susan is a republican in

hampton, virginia. : one thing i've learned, i don't want to go to prison. the prison industrial complex always chuckles about it. virginia, if you have a felony you cannot work in a restaurant because of abc loss .- abc laws you can't work in a hospital setting or old folks home because you may have had this felony or that. it is negated by the same laws that the federal and state government have. >> you are exactly right. i'm not familiar with virginia state statutes. have ar states if you

felony conviction you can't even be a beautician or do hair braiding. money we do spend on rehabilitation and vocational training is offset by these ridiculous statutes. >> we're going to take more itls about this and what taught him about america's prison crisis. that lindsey share graham has decided to suspend his presidential campaign. comes on theent same day as the deadline to remove his name from the primary ballot, a date closely watched amid speculation. we will go to kathy in albuquerque, new mexico. caller: i always watch c-span.

i wish you would always run the show. i saw your story on book tv. i always felt the need to reach out to the people in prison, but have been kind of fearful. something within me that i , ited to reach out to them gave me such great insight. i don't know if you have anything you can offer. i still do have a strong desire. your beautiful family stuck with you. can offer me any advice as to how i can reach out to them.

guest: thank you for the kind , thank you for your interest in serving people who are incarcerated. i want to encourage anyone -- theg to reach out amount of loneliness and misery -- overwhelming with misery was overwhelming. have the phone cut out before he had a chance to talk to his son or daughter -- there is so much loneliness. if you could go to a prison to visit with people, people would

be delighted to talk with you as the cover -- as the other colors alluded to. -- other callers alluded to. emotion is weakness, so prisons have no one to talk to. they have no one to explain these feelings of loneliness. there are tons of nonprofits that do work in this realm. i'm on the board of the prison entrepreneurship program. you don't have to be a business person to volunteer with them. everyone needs someone to listen to and most people do not have anyone. a couple of people have mentioned my wife. the day i file for office again, i will run into my