a point where any western power can put parameters on the table. i am not sure the things you propose instead are going to get us anyplace. on the palestine side, you say we need them to reduce incitement and maintain security. we have security cooperation and have had it for some time. on the incitement issue, that is in the eye of the holder -- beholder. on the israeli side, you suggest we open access, which we have tried to do since the days of george mitchell. my question would be, how do you see us making progress? what else can be done to show it israeli commitment to the palestinian state? and i think the idea that israel completely frees settlements is something so politically impossible right now that we will put this off for another decade.

on the palestinian side, you talk about reform. i would say the same thing. we have been trying to reform the palestinian authority since 1896. -- since 1994. it is almost impossible. as it stands, if palestine were a state, it would not be worse off than other states admitted to the u.n.. we have sudan, kosovo. the difference is we are holding palestine to different standards because of the political insecurity aspects, which is largely based on land issues and contention. can you say something about how you see those ideas moving along a little faster? ghaith: i would disagree with you on a very basic point.

i do not believe we have been trying to do either of these things, at least the last few years. during the mitchell times and kerry, reforms on the ground were, if you want to be charitable, you would say a distant second. we were still fixated on high diplomacy. we actually did not put that much ever -- effort into trying to get the sides to change their behavior. it may have been mentioned in the preamble of the meeting but never really got discussed. i would also disagree on the issue of palestinian reform. we have managed to make some interesting progress when the international community created coalitions that were serious

about a palestinian government. what george bush did with the issue of the roadmap showed that when you have a very strong international coalition that gave the palestinians no exit ramp, the palestinians end up making significant developments that were, i would say, transforming the nature of the palestinian government. you are right there are different conditions to statehood. yet i would argue they are preconditioned testability. -- to stability. i am not sure if this is a model i want to follow. i believe the lesson to be

learned from the arab spring is the contract between people and government. part of the social contract is clean government. none of these things are actually going to get us to a peace deal. but they may create some degree of a more conducive environment. right now, diplomacy is not positive. nor is creating a political environment for diplomacy. david: thank you. we have time for two last questions. i see them right there. and the gentleman in the back. >> a question about the approaches to israel being accepted in the arab world. how do you reconcile that?

einat: ultimately, the question of legitimacy is manifested in two ways. at least up until now, every time there was a clear and distinct opportunity for the arab palestinians to have a state, this would have meant for going the idea of return. the idea that the jewish people have an equal place in the land. they are home, not interlopers, not crusaders. to date, that was too high a price to pay. the arab peace initiative emerged at a moment when everything rested on the interpretation of the solution for the refugee problem. if it is a "take it or leave it" initiative and there were not overtures to negotiate, this

negates the jewish right to self-determination. until i see a clear statement that says, "we accept the jewish people have an equal claim to the land. they are as indigenous as we are. their rights and our rights are not superior or exclusive," i will know we are at a moment of peace. not a set of arrangements. as long as the issue of return, the refugees, continues to be covered without people being specific to say those in the west bank are no longer refugees , whatever, the palestinian people have a right to self-determination and to have a law of return.

they do not have a right of return. sometimes, we are willing to go to an extreme left-wing or extreme right-wing position. i am willing to recognize the equal return of arabs and jews to the entirety of land if both were to equally renounce the implementation of their right. as long as that exists, there is still no -- i do not see a real acceptance. in that sense, egypt and jordan still do not have peace with israel. they have agreements that have held up very well, but a real acceptance of the jewish people as equal, indigenous to the land, is sadly missing in my view. ghaith: may be the lawyer in me is uncomfortable. david: i was waiting for that.

ghaith: i am always uncomfortable bringing in legal negotiations because i do not believe diplomats or lawyers are the most appropriate actors to define a narrative for the people. i am content. but a word on the arab peace initiative. it does not assume a refugee problem. it talks about "just and agreed." i was asked to highlight or identify the word "agreed." einat: both sides have a veto. ghaith: absolutely. that is the nature of any deal. but the way i understand the peace initiative is that it was not a substantive formula.

it was made very loose in order not to pose a solution or to create a framework for other sides to agree on. to expect the arabs to put substantive solutions is not the actual objective. the objective was the palestinians, on one hand. you can make these concessions because we are within the agreed parameters. but you are not only going to get palestinians. there are many mistakes. it was perceived as all or nothing. but it shifted to an alternative negotiation framework. david: i am going to have to apologize. we have run overtime already.

which is a sign of how interesting and provocative this discussion was, in a good way. i want to thank all of you for your interesting and important questions. i especially want to thank our panelists, einat wilf and ghaith al-omari. happy holidays and happy new year to all of you. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> tonight a columnist and artist talks about her drawings of the israeli-palestinian conflict and guantanamo bay. she talks about video she's making on immigration detention centers. seen latercan be

today starting at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span2. three days of featured programming this holiday weekend on c-span trade friday evening at 7:00 eastern, congressional republican leaders honoring former vice president dick cheney at the capital with the unveiling of a marble bust in emancipation hall. >> when the vice president had his critics going off the deep his wife,ked lynn, does it bug you when people refer to me a star theater? -- darth vader? she said no, it humanizes you. [laughter] [applause] saturday night at 8:30 eastern, an in-depth look at policing in minority communities. speakers include a st. louis former police officer, and a washington, d.c. police chief, cathy lanier. >> most people get defensive if they feel like you are being offensive.

being very respectful in encounters, and request if it's versusrisis, request demands, those things change the dynamic a little bit. >> sunday afternoon at 2:00, race and the criminal justice system with white house senior adviser valerie jarrett and others. portions of this year's washington ideas festival -- speakers include virginia senator mark warner, al gore, and author anne-marie slaughter. >> we've got to banish the word "he's helping" at home. helping is not actually taking the burden off of you. you are still figuring out what needs to be done and you are asking him to help. he is the assistant. if we're going to get to where we need to go, men do have to lead parents or fully equal coparents. >> for our complete schedule, go

to www.c-span.org. we have more now on the middle east with a forum on the israeli-palestinian conflict. scholars and diplomats talked about what is needed to create stability and leading peace -- lasting peace in the middle east. , kindlys and gentlemen phones. your cell . good afternoon. director of the university center for terrorism

studies. it is administered by the potomac institute for policy studies, international center for terrorism studies, as well as the inter-university center for legal studies at the inernational law institute, cooperation with many academic institutions, universities around the world, specifically i would like to mention the center for national security of the university of virginia school of law. on behalf of the potomac institute, welcome to you.

tom o'leary is with us, and of course, general gray, the chairman of the board of regents , and the 29th commandant for the marine corps, and he joins us. as always, will have the best word. theny rate, let me welcome speakers. first, right here, professor left,ed dajani to my currently a fellow at the , and heon institute contributed a great deal to heerstand moderate islam,

served as a professor of at aical science university in jerusalem, and he will make a presentation today, and obviously many of you are familiar with a very distinguished contribution and involvement of his family in jerusalem. we do have the information about the speakers, so i want to go speakerails, are the from the israeli embassy in washington, the deputy of azar, willreuven also participate. known to thell

audience here, he participated and number of our seminars contributed. now, basically our mission i is to deal with the question of jerusalem, whether in recentting tension months, at least the last three months, can ignite a religious war in the middle east and at the time of, christmas, that the world is earth, the peace on

question arises whether the spirit of the sacred city of jerusalem, the city that is honored to judaism and islam, wouldand encourage building the peace within the middle east and the holy land, and so on. willhis and other issues be included, discussion for example, in a historical context, background of jerusalem, the political and as thespect as well, various related issues, the role of religion, for example. invite thelike to speakers, they will take over in a few minutes.

our radioke to thank and television for bringing this seminar to the attention of a wiser audience in the united states, and internationally. always,ion to that, as we like to mention anniversary dates related to environments wi th the hope that perhaps we can diffuse some of the negative the religionization of conflicts and try to advance the cause of faith with justice. we remember the victims of violence and terrorism. twoe mention specifically. today's date, to

the -- the, 1988, 27th anniversary of the that wascan flight 103 destroyed over scotland, 259 passengers were killed, most of them americans, and 11 on the ground. many of you remember that libya for thatnsible tragedy. , theon christmas day, 2009 toerian -- attempted

detonate plastic explosives on 253 overwest flight detroit. it was connected with al qaeda in the arabian peninsula, and manyly we have to remember of the other victims, time alllly in recent california,aris, sinai, and so forth. moderator, ias a feel that i'm really a for 25 years i lived, studied, and worked in jerusalem.

although my family came to palestine, the first group came 30's, andn the early i grew up in the city of tel aviv, but i always considered myself a member of the population of jerusalem. academic level, i was involved in teaching at hebrew yearssity for some 25 related to war and peace and terrorism. i would like to mention in june 1967, i had the honor to open the mount .cope us campus

30 students came from the united states and other countries. gaveirst assignment that i to the students was not to write a paper, but to clean up the classroom that was not used for because of the separation of the old city. time, scholars who came from all over the world to join us and participate in our academic work, including some of the leaders of israel, shimon peres, for example, and , also clergy of christian muslims, and others to

participate in our work. academically, we focus on jerusalem for a very long time. i would like to mention one particular study which is related to our topic today, not , but backity purposes we had a project at columbia university, the school of journalism, how can religion advance the cause of peace in the middle east, and produced a book on the role of communications in the middle east. this becauseg there is no way that one can discuss the issue of jerusalem separate from the arab-palestinian conflict there, israeli conflict or the conflict

between israel and the modern world, and the international issue. so let me just begin by , we areg all of us familiar with jerusalem the same way we are familiar with the march on washington and moscow and berlin and elsewhere, but just to remind us what are we talking about going back to the old testament, the new testament, the temple in jerusalem and professor dajani will go into some details, right here the church of the holy sepulcher. we're talking about the sacred sites in jerusalem and the status of the sites, the al-aqsa , and of course, the

wailing wall, the western wall, thatemnants of that temple appeal, and the al-aqsa mosque, and the pilgrimage of pope francis to jerusalem, the wailing wall, and elsewhere. big agenda,ave a and again, the question i think we are going to discuss today, what are the factors that terrorismviolence and and perhaps might trigger a third world war, as some people predict. how can we diffuse some of the negative theological elements from a political conflict,

related to israel, palestine, on, and this conserve as a model for other conflicts around the world. with this, i would like to invite reuven azar to come up and discuss some of the issues. reuven: thank you, yonah. appearpleasure for me to before the potomac institute again. for peace,t the key if you want to avoid continuation of war, the key is acceptance. acceptance, it means acceptance of the other. i could speak here for a whole hour, maybe a whole day regarding the connection between jerusalem,people and

and talk about the history of jerusalem, how it was established as the capital of the israeli kingdom by king david 3000 years ago, and about the first and second temple, and the fact that jews pray three times a day, every day, for going back to jerusalem, to restore jerusalem is a place at which the temple is restored. we mentioned jerusalem in funerals and weddings. it is part and parcel of the life of any jew. peace, weo get to have to accept also the other. and the other has to accept us. another thing that we have to do is, instead of exploiting to radicalize, we have to exploit religion to moderate, and force moderation. that is a very difficult task, especially today with the

situation we have in the region. unless we defeat the radicals, we won't be able to do it. sometimes i'm hearing in the last few months in washington and other places, when it comes to isis, people say that isis are ignorants. unfortunately, they are not. their methods are terrible, but the leaders of isis have an ideology and they are educated. the problem we have is that the radicals are educated. unless we defeat them, it will be difficult to promote the message of acceptance of the religion toffuse promote moderation. one of the problems we have in jerusalem is that religion is being manipulated. in the last spark of the violence -- before that, there rael, containment in is

claiming that israel wants to change the status quo of the temple. thatis not the first time religion is being manipulated in that way. it goes back to the beginning of the conflict. not even before 1967, but before 1948. in 1929, for example, when a terrible massacre happened in jerusalem, hebron, a very old community was erased from the map. people were killed. it was a part of initiative of jews to put the separation between men and women. this sparked the rumor that the jews are going to take over the temple. what happened is that before the 1920's, it was well-known,

including in the publications at that thisd temple same location in which the temple of solomon was built. one of the isis-related organizations, they exist in the sinai. this rejectionism of trying to rewrite history and disconnect the narrative of jews and the connection to the holy land was part of a nationalistic,

anti-zionist movement. it was deceived as what we know today as the palestinian movement. ome defined themselves as palestinian. how can we deal with rejectionism? that is a difficult challenge. jordan, that when in unaided today -- on a day today basis we are trying to settle this problem that we have. the problem in israel is very interesting. we came to jerusalem back in 1967, after hundreds and thousands of years of praying for jerusalem.

floor, he called for the priest, and he gave him the keys for the temple. the idea of the leaders of that time was, in order for us to solve the conflict, at the end of the day we have to separate sharen religion and to religious tolerance and not to take over. these places are sacred for the others. another important event wasn't 1994, when the product -- was in 1994, when it be prime minister signed a peace accord meant with the jordanians. that is the first time that any leader in the world recognized the hashemites. didted israel do that -- why israel do that? they wanted to me the idea that you can solve religious issues

separately from national issues. we have a religious conflict. but if we drove religion into the conflict, we won't be able to solve it. we have to respect of the respect other religions. that was very interesting because at that point in time, no other arab leader has cts thed that it respe role of the hashemite family. in the last two years, we are having another phenomenon that is working for us -- worrying for us. although israel is a democracy and we have a respect for religion, and although we are

being attacked for many years, there is radicalization implies real itself -- in israel itself. we have to deal with that. we have seen in the last year or two, an increase in the number of victims of jewish terror. we have seen some people in israel that are trying to call for the change in the status quo in the temple mount. what israel is trying to do is find that radicalization. the president, the prime minister, the security forces are doing as much as they can to thwart the radicals. also i think the government

has come out and said very clearly that israel will not change the status quo in the temple mount. is incitement and propaganda around this. they are completely sure that israel wants to take over these mosques. but we are not going to do that. jerusalem isthough , itmost sacred place for us has a connection to us, we have to respect also the aspirations and religions of others. just to wrap it up, i would say that if we manage to find partners that not only will join us in promoting moderation but

also will recognize our narrative, then we have a chance of negotiating peace. we have negotiated, even if jerusalem -- even jerusalem under the past few years. the suggestions on the table were very revolutionary and ambitious. i think that we can get to that point when we hear from the other side, from the leaders of the palestinians and the arab world that they are willing to recognize the historic connection of the jews to the holy land, the religious connection and a national connection. if we hear that, if israelis hear that from the other side, i think they will be much more prone to compromise.

that more or less wraps it up. you go, let me ask you a question. clarityu provide some -- you mentioned the role of jordan in particular, a very unique role. diplomats were invited from the embassy of jordan, but they cannot make it due to a scheduling conflict. the question is related to the old idea of the internationalization of jerusalem that was initially

1947ced as a positio petition n and later on. secondly, the status of the sacred sites, not only jerusalem, but elsewhere -- nazareth and so forth. i thought it would be of great interest. reuven: you have to separate between religious rights and national rights. we have a conflict with the palestinians. we think that jerusalem is the capital of israel, because of the connections i already mentioned. this is something we have to settle with the palestinians. there were different stages in which we negotiated such a solution. on the religious side, i think

that we have to stick to the principle that we are not going withx religious rights national rights. it's interesting, because in our area of the world, like in the west, we don't separate religion and state. but even that we don't separate religion and the state, because of many and historic and cultural regions, we can. i think this can help us in getting into the solution. such illusions -- such solutions, when it comes to control of religious sites, we are already almost there. the holy sepulcher is controlled the wailings and wall is controlled by jews.

as long as everybody has the right to exercise their religion, we can find a solution. maybe we can go deeper into this issue. the claim, for example, that israel is trying to change the status quo on the temple mount and so forth. this does encourage, i think, more dissension and violence. it reminds me very vividly, 1969, when i was in jerusalem. there was an australian christian who had set fire to a

mosque in jerusalem. this inflamed not only the people in jerusalem, the palestinians, arabs, muslims all over the world. what is the israeli policy vis-a-vis to preserve the state's quote in jerusalem and elsewhere? -- the status quo in jerusalem and elsewhere? ven: there is something going on in the jordanian press. they are translating the protocols of the meetings of th in which officials, they were asking why jews cannot come to the mosques and pray. right,d be their natural according to them. the jordanian opposition was

translating that. of atteated a series acks against the jordanian government, against the king. played into the conspiracy of thes that the leader thatmic movement in israel cooperates with hamas, was involved. it does not matter whether israeli police actually police the place, and every jew that comes to the temple mount is being watched by police so he does not open his mouth and pray. so delicate. the government is doing its work.

the problem is there are a lot of people that are playing this because they are zealots poor because they want to benefit from this politically. and our challenge to cope with it. fortunately we are now engaged with the jordanian government. we are trying to advance this project of getting cameras on the temple mount so people have a chance to look directly ant life, what is going on. usually what is to happen, because of the fact that people linked with the islamic movement that used to go to the mosque, they would estate there -- would stay there for the night and try to disrupt jews or at thes or throw stones wailing wall. before the last jewish feast at

the end of the year, the wall closed. hat was something that generated whole series of incitement and violence. we have a challenge. as much as we have corporation from the canadian -- from the jordanians, and which we have corporation from the palestinian leadership, we have to condemn the incitement. we can takehat, control of the situation. but if we don't, this will continue to be a serious problem for us. a question before we open up to questions from the audience. this would relate to your therience in cairo and peace negotiations. many people are concerned that you cannot solve the problem

theerusalem without solving palestinian-israeli conflict. are you pessimistic or on that particular conflict, not on the palestinians and israelis, but israelis with other arab countries, such as saudi arabia largee muslim world at can be resolved, and thereby you can also resolve the issue of jerusalem? optimistic first of all because i am an optimistic person. but i believe in the power of the jewish people to prevail. but i'm also optimistic because i think something very substantial is going on in the region and in the world.

we understand what the dangers are of radical islam. people in the region also understand how undermined they are by these kind of ideologies. were years ago, when we doing our annual research, we identified that there is a a stabilizer within the region that we have. , instead of calling it "the the grass of the neighbor is always greener," we say "the grass of the neighbor is always darker." israelis look at what is going on in the region. palestinians in the west bank look at what is going on in gaza and in syria. many people have a sense of how

threatened they are by the radical forces. it's not that they are suddenly becoming in love with israel. but they understand what is realistic and what is not. they haverstand that, a chance to fight for equality. jordanians and egyptians understand that israel is a force for stability in the region. forot generate love ates the but it gener realistic sense that we have to fight extremism together. sense, i think we have a chance. we are cooperating much more than in the past with the jordanians, the egyptians, with the palestinian security forces. because they know that is the

end of the day, palestinian jihad, isis, they would take over. if we manage to exacerbate that and combine it strong leadership and a peace process that includes acceptance, i think we will be better off. >> we have a few minutes to ask the audience some questions. if you have a question or comment, please step forward. and a senior fellow at the george washington center for cyber and homeland security. i do a lot in counterterrorism. from the outside, the mideast always looks unstable. stability, on stability are -- uns stabilityy have a time

dependence on them. whether you are stable for a short or long period of time is a relative thing. my question is, what do you see for thefuture of nationstate itself in that area? that also is an example of a possible degeneration of the nationstate concept. reuven: i think that is a great question. this is something trying to discuss with my researchers. for many years, we were looking at the region, we had mubarak and assad. it was very stable and we didn't foresee many changes.

now you have to open every day a organizationa new . team,e point i told to my let's stop looking at countries, let's start looking at institutions. we try the institutions in the on to that you can count be influent. when it comes to your question, what are the institutions that we can embrace and bring forth to cooperate with? when you look at the egyptian people in theple, west don't like the egyptian army. i can understand that. also in israel it is not very encouraged. there is a famous joke -- not famous, maybe it will be now -- about when the muslim

brotherhood had broken the cease-fire between israel and hamas many nationalists in egypt were saying he is a zionist cooperating with the israelis. broken, cease-fire was the muslim brotherhood was cited zionist.e was a unfortunately they are both wrong. these are the institutions we have. whether it is the muslim brotherhood or any other force, any institution that takes power, if is not completely legitimate because it kills everybody like assad, like isis, we have to reinforce those players. in jordan you have a strong government, a strong intelligence service. you have structure.

you have a strong financial banking system. let's work with those. those so theye have a chance to deliver. the same goes for the palestinian authority. we have the process of 20 years in which we invested. okay, we are not saints. israelis may be could have invested more, we may be better off. that failed. you have palestinian security apparatuses that work. how can we make it deliver for palestinians, including against hamas? maybe if we do that, we can have a palestinian state. >> hi, thank you for your time. if there is to be a negotiated

palestiniansition, would like to raise their flight in jerusalem. -- their flag in jerusalem. rejected bythat was israelis. is it possible that it b could become a palestinian capital as well? reuven: that is up to the leaders to decide. deciding is part of the solution. you can imagine anything. and you have to imagine anything if you want to reach a settlement. but the question really is how to get there. we fought for many years. especially now that you have the arab spring, you now have the advantage of owning peace with the palestinians. thef promoting peace with

palestinians. the difficult challenge i face in washington is to get the sense of the is really psyche. -- the israeli psyche. israeli to as an communicate the psyche of israelis to americans. when you see isis decapitating heads in syria, people get very mobilized and they want to fight radical islam, right? imagine what happens to israelis in times like this, when they see what is going on in the region, how more conservative they become. of course we don't want to be in a situation that we give territory back and you haven' an isis flag on the other side of the border. so you have to secure the region by having a player there that

will be pro-western, democratic, that will be uncorrupt, that will make the future palestinian state thrive. and not, as kissinger said two months ago he came to a to established another arab state within our border. we don't want that. , i was born in tehran. , is ofem, as you know interest to major religions. for many years, there were struggles between everybody. i would like to know, i what point would the people of israel feel secure that the conflict could end?

so you have some kind of vision what that security can be. 20 years, 50 years, 100 years from now? --would like to hear [laughter] question,ne more since moses, peace be upon him, came out of egypt, how many people do we have in the world? reuven: the estimation is about 18 million jews. the jewish religion is unlike christianity and islam. it is not in the business of converts.re being a jew was very difficult for many centuries, for reasons

that you already know. i think we are going to feel secure when we have a situation where there is no more rejection . and we have security. theaeli right, israeli extreme right is not even in favor of controlling the lives of the palestinians. places to withdraw from in which we mutually agree with palestinians that would be the future palestinian state. that can happen in 5 years, 10 years, 100 years -- i don't know. but we need to work on it so that it happens. thank you very much. i am an old mideast counterterrorism specialist.

as ast visited jerusalem young reporter before the 1967 war. it was a pretty deadly city, frankly. i have been there since then. there has been a fair amount of integration. you see arab families in the malls and things of that sort. is the recent outbreak of violence, i understand that the barriers have been put up between the two sides of jerusalem. do you foresee that things will go back to "normal" their we quickly if the violence ends? jerusalem see functioning as a city? reueven: unfortunately we have seen waves of violence before. when the waves were higher, the security measures were also tighter. what the government is trying to keep normal is to

life as much as they can. i will give you one example. this is the movement from palestinian workers to israel. 120,000 palestinians from the west bank to israel to work every day. even though a small number of them, 1 or 2, have been involved in stabbings, israeli government is was standing -- a lot of pressure on the respectiv west bank. a second wall in the second defund it -- we didn't want to do that could the right wing were against it. the center and left her for it because they wanted to protect themselves from attack. they wanted to protect life. , i hopewe can redo that we can. see this way only

of violence but we can reach a settlement, and we have seen in the past after the second intifada that the situation was stabilizing. .e removed many restrictions >> clock is ticking. one more question. do you view the isis escalation around the world -- do you foresee any change in the , the israelisition government positions? >> regarding what? >> regarding peace and security. >> i think prime minister netanyahu said in his last visit to washington that, first of all, we have an opportunity to cooperate with our arab

neighbors, arab countries that are interested, like us, in fighting the radicals, islamic inicals, inviting -- fighting attempts to change, subvert their own regime. we can maybe in the right circumstances create original dialogue that would be conducive to bilateral is in between us and the palestinians. having said that, as i said before, we will have to overcome a lot of animosity and fear that is created exactly by these kinds of forces. i don't have to go far away -- what happened after several attacks of isis in this hemisphere, how people are reacting in this hemisphere, in this country, and also israelis have to overcome that. of thishe great traumas

nation is 9/11. israel has been in 9/11 for the last seven years. the possibility to change the psyche and to go from a situation which you become less risk-averse is going to be an enormous challenge. we have to working together with our neighbors to try to lower their barriers of fear. >> i cannot resist but ask you a final question. we focus on the palestinian and some of the arab states. can you comment on the role of iran? everyone is looking the iranian nuclear issue, but how is the link with the issue of jerusalem? in other words, iranian and non-arab state view related to the solution of the jerusalem

problem? >> well, it's another impediment is no. the iranian revolution created what we call -- today iranian regime wants to challenge not only the legitimacy of israeli control of jerusalem but the legitimacy of control of the saudis of mecca. it is a much larger conflict and rivalry with jihad there. the other problem is the iranians are much more powerful. decapitations of isis are very intimidating, but what happens with countries that are trying o possess nuclear weapons? they have missile technology. they have forces in the region that are working to assist players like assad and others.

that is a much more difficult challenge but i think that we proven in the past that we can overcome that. when for example, we did with the palestinians. yes, the iranians were there in 1994 to try to foil that, to promote hamas, to promote suicide attacks of hamas. we're going to have all the time iranians trying to foil any peace that we broker between us and the palestinians or the arabs. we've seen subversion of iran in jordan for example. we have a challenge but it doesn't mean that we cannot continue the drive for peace. >> thank you very much for coming. i know you have to leave. thank you very much. [applause] >> thank you very much. i would like to thank professor alexander for inviting me.

is to would like to do explore the status of jerusalem in hope of offering insights on how to resolve the problem. i will start by introducing my association with the city and then talk a little bit about the history of the city and then discuss some potential way of trying to resolve the problem on the city. man appointed my great-grandfather to be the custodian of the king david tomb. mayor,n the first actually -- the ottoman empire study the municipalities -- started the minister polities by having one in istanbul. the second one was in jerusalem.

rahman was appointed as mayor. for is the family picture the family in 1942. this is my father's wedding. actually in 1948, the jordanian s saved them and this family. after the jewish quarter fell, they saved to the library from being burned. just was a lot there but i mentioned it. is what i'm going to talk and so i will be focusing on what i am saying, how the rule over jerusalem has between theted

muslims, the christians, and the jews. it is basically from the ancient history. jerusalem has been the site of glories and catastrophes. it has been witness to tradition and occupation by a diversity of nations and target of pilgrimage. the red sea was open to allow the jews to cross safely and close to drown pharaoh and his army. that --ns to leave believe that jesus was resurrected from the dead t. muslims believe the journey of mohammed to jerusalem was meta-buraq, where he archangel gabriel and ascended

to heaven. the solution to the conflict is to respect the narrative of the other and not to deny it or to refute it. in 1638, muslims conquered jerusalem and the caliph arrive to the city on camel. when it was time for prayer, he was invited to pray in the church, but refused, fearing muslims will turn churches into mosques, which some of did later. he prayed outside. you will be finding the mosque where he prayed. from which prophet mohammed ascended to heaven, he built a mosque near, called al-aqsa mosque.

they later builds it on the side of the same mosque where abraham was prepared to sacrifice his son, and said that also noah, the ship of noah landed on that rock, which is very holy. sultanly, in 1852, the issued the status quo decoration. it regulated the mutual rights of christian institutions injures him and asserted that the status quo should prevail, and the status quo has been respected to this very day. the turks surrendered the city of jerusalem, the general delayed his entrance into the city to coincide with the christmas celebrations to give the conquest and victory of

religious aura. troops left the city in 1916. and then actually, he dismounted on foot and respect for the city. theas partly in response to entry of kaiser wilhelm ii, upon wasvisit in 1898, and it partly breached to accommodate him. there are things that both visits -- one is the visit of kaiser, where the wall was actually breached, allowing him to go in. he walked in on foot and that he actually delivered the victory jerusalem to be a city of peace.

u.n. partitione solution decided to internalize the city. , andally, it was divided palestine was divided into the arab state, and the jewish state and jerusalem was supposed to be internationalized. however, when the british left, palestine, the general was asked to whom did you leave palestine. keyresponse was "i left the under the mattress." war, 85% of48 jerusalem was captured by jewish forces. 11% of the city fell under the control of jordan. 4% of the city was considered no man's land, in which the u.n.

headquarters were established. 1949, jerusalem was declared at the capital of israel, in violation of international law and the u.n. resolution. on december 19, the u.n. ga responded a restating its intention to put jerusalem under a permanent international regime. the city remained divided under israeli and jordanian rule. 1967, reunited east and west are his love, but the city remained divided socially and psychologically. in june of 1967, the knesset ,xpanded israeli jurisdiction in violation of international law. this is the crux of the problem. people say why should israel give up jerusalem or concede anything in jerusalem? the question lies here

international law, because in 1948, jewish forces captured west jerusalem and later declared capture of israel. overriding the 1947 u.n. resolution to internationalized the city. in 1967 israeli forces captured east jerusalem and later declared it the eternal capital of israel, overriding the u.n. resolution not to change the character of the city. i will come to the significance of this letter. the compound continue to be maintained by the jordanians. in september 1993, the declaration of principles listed jerusalem as one of the issues to be negotiated as a later stage. the israeli foreign minister at the time, shimon peres, promised that nothing would hamper the

activity of palestinian institutions. in 1994, the treaty between israel and jordan reaffirmed the status of jordan as the custodian for the holy places. here we have three initiatives that focus on jerusalem, granting the palestinians and israelis equal status in jerusalem, which was the roadmap , the clinton plan, and also the .rab peace initiative there were joint initiatives between palestinians and israelis calling for the formation of a palestinian state and having jerusalem serve as the capital. the city of jerusalem has a special place in the

of greatness religions. it has been a center for three world religions -- judaism, christianity, and islam. any lasting solution should take into consideration this history and historic attachment of the three religions to this city. here we have 2 clashing narratives. the palestinians consider jerusalem the capital of the prospective state of palestine. and israel maintains that jerusalem is united as its internal capital. basically, what i like to focus on -- here we have 350,000 palestinians who have residence rights in jerusalem. they have a blue identity card and can move from jerusalem to

the west bank or even from jerusalem to israel without any problem. there are israeli identity cards which gives them the right to work and move freely across the country. and the west bank, and across checkpoints and the separation wall built in 2003. 145 palestinians residents live outside of the jerusalem separation wall, while 195,000 live inside. more than 10,000 palestinians who live in jerusalem hold israeli citizenship. however, here it is important to clash in jerusalem between the palestinians and the israelis is also focused on the way things are. to there negative sides israeli policies and israel.

palestinians benefit a lot from being residents of east jerusalem, particularly in health care. palestinian have a much better healthcare in jerusalem as residents of jerusalem than they do in the west bank or in gaza , and even they take benefits a lot from israeli health care system. however, they suffer from certain policies that are there, zation of the city, which in the last 10 years has accelerated a lot, and even names of streets have been changed. israelis speak three languages -- hebrew, english, and arabic. but now the tendency is to only put hebrew and english. stripping houston incident residency rights, this is a very serious problem --

palestinians of their residency rights from this is a very serious problem that makes palestinians insecure and unstable. for public services in palestine -- poor public services in palestine in east jerusalem compared to west jerusalem. there is a big gap between westerners love and east jerusalem. although east jerusalem palestinians comprise 32% of the city population. the percentage is decreasing. 30% of the city budget, yet they receive less than 5% of the minnesota budget. now because of pressure on the municipality this has been improving. so jerusalem spends six

times on jewish residents then palestinian residents, and you can see that in terms of public parks, clinics, different facilities within the city. for instance, the municipality is in charge of the israeli schools where the students are being provided with a lot of facilities. while actually, the same palestinian schools are in very bad conditions. talking about a young kid who takes a knife and goes and commits terrorism, it is also in the education, because they are receiving very bad education and hates the schools where there are no facilities. this is also part of the problem that we are having. lecture buildings are converted to schools. facilities,t much

no computer labs or libraries, poor lighting. we are having lots of problems with students. this is why students hate to go to school. we have to make them love to come to school. rather than being in the streets. that's also part of the problem. also, demolition policy is affecting their psychology. also, there is a lot of despair as a result of the political stalemate and the frustration from social and economic neglect, which have resulted in explosions, as we see what is happening today. many muslim extremists have exploited the deteriorating condition to intensity the tensions. also here we have the problem that there is a lot of donations that arabs and others have made to improve conditions of the palestinians. jerusalem, yes, the money

with theed either leaders of the -- religious leaders of the community. palestinians do not see much of those donations. if we want to seek solutions, we have to seek solutions for jerusalem. we need to. the similar some between you to filter out the similar some -- we need to filter out the symbolism from the national reality. where the rub lies. in a sense, why should israel be able to actually share jerusalem? what will they get if it does want to share? it is international recognition.

that's actually a problem part of what israel may benefit from a deal on jerusalem. if we look at jerusalem, we know notice that jerusalem was originally divided into two cities. this is their own city which is divided into four quarters. the jewish, christian, armenian, and muslim. annexed areas have been to jerusalem. very small, more than 30% of the area has been added, annexed to the city. this is where, if you look at jerusalem, we see twin city, this is the holy city. referred to by religious holy books, the old city. the old city was surrounded by a wall built by the ottomans.

we have the three holy places. that is why the old city is the holy city. this is the old city. basically, the old city and its immediate surroundings constitute what we call jerusalem. jerusalem has been mentioned in the bible and different holy books. it is the old city. the municipal city has been added and it has been added in a very erratic way in order to , include areas and then exclude population. way -- very odd way. the rest is not jerusalem. when you want to decide on the future of jerusalem, you have to make that distinction between the old city and the municipal city. the city that has been enlarged.

so reconciliation in midst of conflict, we need to agree on such issues of municipal services, day-to-day living problems, status of holy places, and disagree on issues such as political sovereignty. the proposed solution is to have the holy old city to have a special international jewish-christian-muslim custodianship. east is for the arab jerusalem, which is muslim and christian. and then the west is the jewish jerusalem. and then the city will be without barriers or restrictions.

israel would transfer the responsibility of sewage, roads, schools, child care, health and social services to palestinians. taxes collected from palestinian residents would improve the living conditions of palestinians in jerusalem neighborhoods. basically, if we have a look at that, whether it's a win-lose situation the way it is now ethnicallyut it is divided, religiously and psychologically. israel retains control of the entire city but it is recognized by the international community to however, it's a win-win situation if we would share the city and then this way, to have the city open to the world, to come and pray. and particularly to the muslim, christian, and jewish communities. in this way, it would be recognized by the international community. it would bring in security and stability. so thank you very much. that's actually my take on this.

[applause] >> it triggers many, many questions. for our young students here in reflectse leaders, it the complexity of the issue and the problem we have to look at the interdisciplinary approach way from the historical and sociological and religious and strategic and political and so on and so forth. let me ask you specifically if i may, again to come back to the question of the internationalization of jerusalem. we tried to deal with that to

some extent before. but as i recall, the u.n. petition resolution that in 1947 actually recommended that the status of jerusalem can be be decided in about 10 years. whether the three religions would turn the city into international city. tragically, that's the resolution and other resolutions were overcome by reality on the ground in terms of the conflict. for example, between israel and jordan, when jordan controlled in 1948 a section of jerusalem.

so what i'm really trying to say is that, obviously, i think your presentation provides opportunities for modus vivendi and some sort of compromise because the art of compromise is more possible than judgment. and so on. but my question to you in regards to the internationalization of jerusalem, again, since now we are in the spirit of christmas, peace on earth, what do you think the religious communities can do to advance some sort of solution in jerusalem? fowith the spirit of jerusalem? , when hele, the pope

visited the holy land several years ago and most recently in theca, for example, and central african republic, when he tried to bring together the muslims and the christians, he had a message of peace, of tolerance, the ecumenical approach. how do you think in your long experience, with your very intinguished family jerusalem, how do you think the role of religion can be advancing some of the proposals that he made -- that you may? >> that is why i am focusing on 2 aspects, the religious aspect and the political aspect. i'm thinking in terms of the whol old city to be dealt from

the religious point of view. it is a holy place and people want to come and pray. whether they are muslims, christians, jews, or even non-muslim, christian, jew. this is the holy place and people might want to come to visit there. that is why i leave this religious aspect in the old city to a special custodianship, where it actually could be international, muslim, christian, jewish, international status, special status for the old city. outside the city is where we can , because thelly matter what we say, what we do, outside the city it is psychologically divided into an arab sector, where it is muslim and christian palestinians, and then there is westerners on, which is -- west jerusalem,

which is the jewish sector. that is a psychological barrier. if you want to pick up a taxi from the israeli side and asked him to take you to the palestinian side, he will look at you and say, that is crazy, go walk there. and so, the areas with palestinians, israelis do not feel secure to go to. areas that are israeli, palestinians do not feel secure. nobody is going to the israeli section. they are afraid. there is fear in both communities. basically what i am saying is we , have to deal with that fear. one way is to have recognition of each other's history and

of each other's culture and each other's attachment to the city, and in this way, to share the city. i am not in favor of having east jerusalem to be capital or what jerusalem to be political capitals. i believe they can be religious capitals. if we could have east jerusalem to be the religious capital for palestine, jerusalem could be the religious capital of israel. and this way, we will be able to disassociate between politics and religion, because there is an explosive mix when they get together. but if we can separate them, i am trying to do that, trying to separate the political from the religious by thinking in terms of outside the city, which is holy, which has been annexed in the last five decades, and when you talk about

jerusalem, nobody refers to that area as jerusalem. to define politically between the two parties, the two communities, but without bond - barbed wires, without checkpoints. this is my vision for the future. >> my question again, how would you respond to those jews who claim that if, for example, you establish a muslim regime in east jerusalem, you exclude jewish connection, let's say to mount and the wailing wall and all of that, and

secondly, not only the muslim issue but the christian issue, obviously, the christian -- it is very significant for the christian world. the church of the holy sepulcher. and in fact, the reality is, as we know in the church, there is a separation between the catholics, let's say, and the armenian, the ethiopian, the greek orthodox, and so on, in terms of control of the church itself. what i am trying to actually advance, i think the idea of how some of can defuse these negative elements from the political conflict, and thereby try to find some political

solutions, which would correspond to the reality on the ground as well. mohammed: but that is exactly my point. when i am saying we have a special international religious muslim, christian, jewish, status quo for the whole city, this includes all of these places. the holy sepulcher. these are not included within what i am saying of an arab jerusalem, which is outside. i am separating between the holy places inside the wall, which are the holy places for all religions, from the area which is the municipal area outside the wall. muslims will not have more to

say in the holy places than christians or jews. but i am also try to include is the christian element. here, people look at jerusalem as if it is a jewish-muslim conflict. it's not, because, actually, christians own more land and property in holy places in jerusalem than either muslims or jews. so basically that is why. what i'm saying is that we need to have a custodianship where of the old city where the holy places are by the three religions and outside to be divided into these 2 political entities outside the city, which does not include the holy places. >> let me ask you one more question and then we will open it up for dialogue with the audience. my question to you is, again, i always try to look at common

ground between the different religions. betweenreally common christianity and islam and judaism? this is the sanctity of human life. if we save one life, it feels as if we saved the entire world. in other words, how can we protect the individuals and the communities and somehow reduce the elements of fear you were talking about? and i fully agree with you. whether it is the taxi driver, to visit the mosque, the wailing ball and so on. my question to you, again, from a religious point of view and approach -- in other words, the message of the pope, for example. can we establish a truce of god,

meaning the unity of the holy sites? in other words, christianity, will declaredaism we are not going to use that element as fiction and tension on andn't -- fricti tension and conflict. in other words, together, religious leaders of the different communities to unite and come with a declaration of how we can protect the holy that divisionlode you are talking about from the palestinian-israeli conflict, and so on and so forth. i think perhaps it can be a powerful message to the entire world, how we can coexist with each other. this is the purpose of those who are created by god, whether they are muslims or christians or

jews or sikhs or members of any other religion. in other words, not to leave the decision on the status of jerusalem, for example, only to the politicians and diplomats, but also to the spiritual leaders of the different religions. >> actually i believe the three , religions call fo peace. i believe judaism, christianity, and islam are religions of peace , religions of moderation, and that actually, in the holy books -- now, step aside from the propaganda and the media and things, where people say islam is a religion of aggression and islam is this. more than 50,000 violent incidents have taken place in

the united states. in one year, 2015. and yet three incidents are done by muslims. so islam is being branded a religion of violence because of that. let us separate between the religious leaders and what people do in the name of religion. i believe that religious leaders and the religions will call for peace and are for peace and they will not stand in the way of having the old city to be a custodianship of religious -- of the three religions. as a result we leave the , politics outside the old city to the politicians to do with east jerusalem and west jerusalem.

that is why i'm talking about places of worship where anyone , can go and worship freely and openly, like they do in the vatican. once we move on with this concept, it becomes like every day, it becomes normal. we have to normalize what is not normal today. we have to normalize peace. we have to really rehabilitate peace, because people now do not think much of peace and moderation. however, we have to rehabilitate that again and make people believe in that and once they do, you do not have to worry about that. you have to worry more about who takes out the trash, the sanitary systems, the health, much more than the terrorism. we have to defuse the issue by making peace. and i don't believe the present situation, which is preserving

the status quo, could lead to peace. that is why you are looking -- what you're so concerned about is today. what i am so looking for is tomorrow. i can see tomorrow a vision of peace and i can see it where a muslim, christian, a jew can walk into jerusalem in peace and harmony without having to fear the other. now, there are minorities in these communities that are radicalized and who are instilling hate and fear. in order to take control of the people, because they are the minority. that is why we need to have the majority to wake up and be more vocal and be more active, to prove themselves and to stand up for peace. i believe it does not need the religious leaders to do that. i think the man on the street wants peace and to live in peace.

just give him the opportunity. thorn which ishis radicalism which has been pinned in him. i believe we will move to a better future. i am optimistic. i see a future where a muslim and christian and jew will not have to worry about a knife or a bullet or a bomb, but rather, they will live in peace, because we love this city and we love to see it more prosperous and see it be the place where even jews would like to come and pray at the mosque, the mosque would be open for anybody who wants to come and pray there. the idea is that the politics is poisoning the environment. once we remove the politics out of this context, i think we have a better future.

>> it certainly is a very worthy goal. hopefully, the religious leaders will pay attention to your message. now we have a few minutes for q&a, if you do have any questions or comments. ron taylor with george washington university, a senior fellow there. when i listen to the two of you talk, i hear the professor asking for more of a concrete step to achieve exactly what you just described. his proposal was maybe to get religious leaders from muslim, judaism, christian, to make a statement of some kind. and you know, you seem to look forward into the future and say,

i see that but i do not think it is necessary that the leaders make a statement. so i think i will ask the question in a different way. because people are just ordinary, and we all need something to look at to give us an example of how to get to the future, could you imagine, how do we paint that picture for everyone of the muslim, the christian, and the jew, walking into the old city in a way that they get the point? what picture do we need to paint today that they get the point that you want to convey about the future? >> we need to send the message that the three religions are not in clash with each other, and as a muslim and the founder of -- movement, i read my

koran and do not find a clash with the others. on the contrary, i see verses which tell me in order for me to be a good muslim, i have to recognize the other, judaism, , whether the holy books or the prophets, and that i should cooperate with the other and if god would have wished, he would have made us all one or god would have wished he had made us one religion or speak one language or be one people. but that was not his desire. his desire is that we are different people. so that we can meet and cooperate and live in peace together. i think this is the message that these holy leaders should pass, rather than for some of them to

antagonize against others or to want to burn the book, the holy book of the other, or to not want to collaborate with the other. in this way, islam is not a threat to the others. on the contrary, radical muslims are a threat to islam as well as they are a threat to others. that is why we should extend our hands together, the moderates, to defeat extremism within the three religions, not only in one religion or the other religion. and in this way, i can see the where, i can see religious leaders, if they read well the books and pass that message to their followers, it we can live much better. it will help for them to make a statement. but it is much more than the statement, it is the work on the

ground. and how we can collaborate with each other. we are starting a house in germany, in which -- in this house, we're going to have the muslim and christian and jew, if they want to pray and exchange knowledge about the religion with the others. if they want to collaborate with the others. i think this is the spirit of the future, instead of having in mosqueogue, church, or a , let us build one building where anybody can walk in so that there will be no separation of religion between the religious communities, and so that they could collaborate with each other and work with each other and understand each other and respect the right of the other to believe the way he believes and to accept that and tolerate that.

basically, that is our message. >> one more question. >> thank you very much for your excellent presentation. i was really struck by your mention of the school situation. i have basically a nuts and bolts kind of question. lack ofabout the the resources in east jerusalem. some people have said it's because they do not vote in municipal elections. there is been talk about a borough system. what can you see in the way of practical steps to improve the financial situation, and improve the infrastructure in east jerusalem? is there political leadership in east jerusalem to push for it, efforts to get funding from the

oil-rich states? where do you see it going and what are the prospects of improving the infrastructure situation in east jerusalem? i am not a believer in the economic situation litigating terrorism, but it seems to me it is something that is good to do for its own reasons. isn't.sorry that there i'm sorry jerusalem lacks leadership on both sides which would actually try to bring the two communities together. unfortunately, so much money has donated by the arab rich countries but it has never arrived to its objectives. there has been money that has been donated to build hospitals, to build schools, to build a better environment in jerusalem. but unfortunately, the channels through which the money has been

donated never arrived. the train did not arrive to the station. thater, i believe that now israel is in control of the city and the municipality collects taxes from arab palestinian residents of the city, there should be more pressure on the municipality to spend more on these facilities to improve them. because one of the arguments also that the arab governments or our donors do not want to do is to fund schools under israeli municipality. and so they always refused to do that. bulk of our students who go to extremely poor

facilities. when you see a 13-year-old kid carrying a knife and thinking he wants to go to heaven and kill someone, this is part i blame the schools and the environment of these schools for something like that, for him to think that way. it is education. yes, he gets education at home but also, he gets a lot of that at school. we have to improve the educational environment for him, we have to improve the quality of teachers because also, the teachers do not receive as much training and incentive as teachers on the other side. this is one way to do it. at the same time, i believe we should encourage palestinians civil society within east jerusalem to prosper, because unfortunately, there have been efforts to clamp on the

palestinian civil society. israel has to give them more leverage to operate as long as east jerusalem is under the rule and under the jurisdiction of israel. and this way, empowering civil society and giving them funding and giving, that will help a lot, and empowering people, empowering activities that will bring palestinians on east jerusalem and israelis on west jerusalem together. any joint projects would be extremely useful in order to make both people live together in peace and try to coexist together. >> thank you very much. [applause]

the last word, a great american. >> certainly very thoughtful, a very difficult topic. i want to thank both speakers and thank all of you for being with us. the one thing that crossed my mind in listening to this and particularly, about cooperation and peace and everybody living together, most of the people around the world also want security, and security and control and somebody who sees that, who follows the laws and all that kind of thing. there needs to be a governmental type of approach that follows your ideas and guidance. and until we have that, we will be stymied a little bit.

you know, we -- who is going to enforce your ideas? >> the people. >> yeah, i agree with that. but that is sort of a democratic type of thought process and all that kind of thing. and it takes -- it took us a couple of hundred years before the declaration of independence to get the idea straight. and so it is going to take a long time. well, thank you very much and for all of you, have a happy holiday season and a prosperous new year. tonight, artists and columnist molly crabapple talks about her drawings of the israeli-palestinian conflict and guantanamo bay. can be seen q&a"

later today at 7:00 eastern on c-span2. a group of panelists now talk about the most recent terrorist attacks by isis and the role of the intelligence community in counterterrorism efforts, including the syrian refugee crisis, countering the narrative of radical islam, and the debate over whether to allow law enforcement access to encrypted data. michaelia director hayden and former customs and border control commissioner robert bonner all take part. the council on foreign relations is the host of this event. thank you very much. hi there. thanks for coming today. we have a full house here in new york and i hope you have a full house in d.c. temple-rastonna

and i'm the counterterrorism correspondent for national public radio, so i've been busy, and i have today's panelists watching what has been going on in paris, brussels, and san bernadino. what i would like to do is , andly introduce the panel we will talk for a little while, and then at 1:00 -- no caps on, no, sorry, 1:30, we will go for questions from the audience. here sitting with me in new york is robert bonner, a senior principal at sentinel strategy and policy consulting. he is a former official of the -- commissioner of the u.s. customs. so we will have lots of questions for him about visas and waivers and things like that. in d.c., we had jamie gorelick, who is a partner at wilmer hale and a former deputy attorney

general of the u.s. department of justice. almost a fixture here at the council on foreign relations, we have general michael hayden, principal of the chertoff group and the former director of the cia and the national security agency. we will have questions about encryption and other things like that for him. ok, and we will start here in new york. bonner, let's talk about the difference between large-scale attacks and the more recent attacks we have seen in paris and in particular, san bernardino. what kind of countermeasures can ameliorate something like san bernardino? robert: we've had two different kinds of attacks that taken place in the recent past. the ones for this program was the large-scale attack in paris. one of the assessment that i think we had already made but

should make is that isis is engaged in asymmetrical warfare against the countries that it its enemies. they will not just a within its territory in syria and iraq. it is not content to use the internet to help radicalize lone wolf kinds of terrorists. it is carrying out large-scale terrorist attacks by individuals who have been trained and radicalized in warfare and terrorist activities. the large-scale terrorist attack is the one that we need to be most concerned about. san bernardino is an example,