virtually unthinkable. we hope believes that our willren and their children come to regard as naive or foolish or bigoted. we don't understand that at the moment. as we strive to fulfill the obligations of citizenship, we have to have the courage and open-mindedness and integrity to question the conventional wisdom thank you. [applause] [applause]

monday night on the communicators we will take a look at how the music industry works. an associate professor of music business at berklee college discusses how the new music platforms have affected the way musicians are paid. what reforms congress can implement to make the payment structure more transparent. jim phillips is a reporter for communications daily. the narrative of artists and songwriters feeling like they don't understand where their money is coming from is not new. we are living in a world today where everything is trackable.

the nsa can no where i am. there's no reason why artists and creators should not be able to know where their songs are being streamed. not a significant time lag either. >> coming up next to look at race and the efforts to improve the criminal justice system. a former st. louis police officer. the mayor of gary indiana discusses the role of law enforcement in her community. police officers from washington dc and new jersey share their thoughts on policing and creating trust within the communities they serve. a former st. louis police officer who left the force to address what he thought were

systemic problems in the .riminal justice system he spoke about the topic to students at the university of delaware. >> there have been a number of incidents suggesting a real need to have a dialogue on race. i encourage audience .articipation it should be said that along with the candidates and sincerity, respectful dialogue is expected. if you wouldn't stand up and say it.blic don't tweet

we are all here to get a better understanding of race in america . be candid but also be courteous. 's head of the coalition on law enforcement accountability. committee challenging the institutional racism at the basis of our criminal justice system and police culture throughout america. he is also the board chair for the st. louis-based ethics trying to end the school to prison pipeline. he was racial justice manager for the american civil liberties .nion of eastern missouri he is also a former st. louis police officer. he is addressing systematic

problems in the criminal justice system. abuse of police authority. he is the author of the investigative report suffering in silence which catalogued human rights abuses in st. louis jails. has led to several formal actions to address the conditions in them. please welcome him now. [applause] [applause] hudson: thank you for having me. they have been running the ragged today. i have had quite today. i'm getting my second wind. i'm very glad to be here. talk about race in america. police community

relations. some of the dynamics that we've seen there. i am very glad to have this opportunity to speak to you and potentially on c-span. a very different perspective from law enforcement. my colleagues who share a law , youcement background whot hear from officers understand the history of policing in america. the relationship between police and the black community.

i am a father, a son, a former st. louis university basketball player. racial justice manager at the aclu. naacp.rganizer for the i'm the board chair the ethics project. i'm here to talk to you as have the spacean in our history where your generation of college students have put us in a position to effect real change. this has to happen. to lay the foundation for you. i want to share some things with you about my experiences when i was in the department. then i will get to my remarks.

to give you a sense of the movementn of what this from ferguson all the way around the world has been vilified wrongfully in so many corners. early in my career i was working with an officer of female officer who happen to be a white woman. you can have black officers who abuse their authority, hispanic officers, the issue is the abuse of authority and where it takes place. consistently in black communities and sometimes in poor communities.

we got a call from an officer in need of aid. this is a very serious call. all officers in geographical range of this call stop whatever you're doing and expedite the officers location. that officer is in trouble, serious trouble. he was in a foot pursuit chasing a suspect in armed robbery. he was running giving his coordinates. we expedite to his location and we get there first. we see the officer. suspect, thea officers bent over and winded. the female officer asks what happened?

he says i'm all right. did you see where the guy went? we were on a street called ashland in north st. louis. the black side of st. louis. on ashland is a long block of houses. he did like this. i think he went in that house. he picked the house. the random. we go up to the house. we get to the door. she's banging on the door. the black flashlight. open the store. i'm not going to use the language.

here.w somebody is in we don't know if anybody is in the house or not. from the back of the house from the ruckus we've created we see a shape begin to approach the door. a wooden door with glass in the center. moving about this speed right here. slowly getting to the door. the door opens. the kid about 19 years old. african-american. i'm standing there. 6'8" but that time i was working out every day. i was about 265 pounds. single-digit body fat.

it was small on purpose so i could look like i was busting out of it. he opens the door and looks and he says lady, i don't know you're talking about. i live here. i have lived here all my life. everybody on this blog knows our family. my family is not here. you've got the wrong house. i guess that was the wrong answer. as soon as he got those words out of his mouth she grabbed him by his throat and snatch them out of the doorway and took him .o the edge of the porch in north st. louis the porches are elevated on some blocks. you will fall maybe 10 feet. tha.eaded by his throat

she cracked the right to face. that,ebody hits you like you're going to do one of two things. you have up your hands and try to block it. offer some discouragement. he put his hands up. .he hit him again to the face. to the groin. is happening fast. i see this. i go over and grabbed the uniformed officer and get her off this guy. it was an officer in need of aid call which means

every officer in the area expedites to the location. he had canceled the aid call. people want to see with the aid call was about. they came anyway. here come the rest of the officers. porch thats of the malere on comes a black officer. he goes over to her and says what going on? she points at the guy who is still laying where she left him. he tried to interfere with what i was trying to do. the black officer said oh yeah? he goes over the guy and said man get up. the kid looked up at him and said uci can't get up.

said you see that i can't get up. he grabbed >> and he confused him and the kid is still leaning against the house. he said now get down this porch and get in the car, i'm taking you in for assault on an officer. the kid was leaning on the house looking at him. he said, man, i won't forget the look in his eyes. a mix of anger, hurt, surprise, fear, all of that because he was looking at this brother in front of him thinking why are you doing this to me. he said it one last time. he said, man, you see i can't go. the officer said i know. he dropped down and grabbed this kid by his ankles, pulled

him like that. now, if you got your hands bound behind your back and you can't move them and somebody grabbed you by your ankles and pulled up as hard as they can ward the ceiling, what happens, he hit his head pretty hard. he drug him down that porch and threw him in the car. we got back to the station and we're in the sergeant's room and we get into it. let me tell you something. if you ever interfere me again while i'm doing police work, that's how she characterized what she had done, police work, i'll never ride with you again. i'm thinking that's already a pretty damn good idea. i'm with that. the other officer, me and him go back a little bit, the sergeant comes in and this is going on, squashes the whole thing. we have work to do. puts us all back in service and we all went back in service and

that was that. what always bothered me about that encounter and always has stayed with me to that very day was the reason the kid kept telling the officer that you see that i can't go. you see i can't go. the reason he was saying that was because when he first came to the door and saw me and the other officers standing there and he cracked that door open, he was standing there on crutches. she snatched him off his crutches to do that to him. and nobody was in the house and it was his home and he was in , no law. of no law i got one more for you to set the foundation and then we'll alk.

, 21, y college, young kid comes to time, 2006 to our rought attention, this is when i was at the aclu, about an assault committed on him by police officers in st. louis at a traffic stop, one of those checkpoint situations where they set up a check pointed and every car that comes through has to stop and he's at the checkpoint one night and he stops for the officer, but the off is at a distance and he can't understand at some point what the officer is directing him to do or what he wants him to do. and so he gets out of his car to find out more about what he needs to do because he has somewhere to be. he has somewhere to be. he gets out of the car. the officer says get back in

the blanking blanking car. because he has somewhere he urgently needs to be, he approached the officer anyway in an attempt to explain that and find out what it is he needs to do so that he can move through the checkpoint. instead of offering an explanation for his simle act of noncompliance which these ys can get you killed, the officer proceeds to assault him physically. he maces him, chokes him up with that mace, eyes burning and getting ready to arrest him for assault on an officer again, a resisting arrest. nytime officers beat you up, they arrest you to resisting arrest. at some point, one of the supervising officers arrives and a decision is made to finally let anthony get medical

attention which they initially denied to him and to release him. this was largely due to the fact that at some point they realized that the assault that the officer committed on anthony had caused him to miss his flight back to iraq for his cond tour of duty in the united states army. i interviewed anthony at length and to hear anthony, this black kid, this soldier describe to me how he felt that he had no rights here in the united states that anyone were bound to recognize how he had always felt this way because the police had always treated him this way and his family this y including his mother was disappointing to say the least.

these kinds of experiences are art of the daily, live reality of black people this country, particularly in urban cores of america, and you need to stand that see black lives matter, this is what they are talking about. it is not the only thing they are talking about, but they are talking about the lived experiences of people, and they are tired. we are tired. this is generations old. fathers and sons, mothers and daughters have all experienced this going back to who knows when and there is zero accountability for any of it because as police officers, we always can fall back on that , rrative of heroism sacrifice, risk, some of the favorite words of the public police apologists you see all

the time in the mainstream media. eople like harry houck, people to justify anything the police will do on the street. you know, this is where we are. what about the more serious -- cases we have seen? where we have seen absolutely no accountability for all that violate our human rights and civil liberties. eric garner, eric garner murdered in front of us. make no mistake. murdered on the street as he pleaded for his life. an officer using an illegal

chokehold barred by his department's own policy and he willfully does this with zero expectation that he and his cohorts will be held accountable. in the aftermath you get a police union boss, chin up, chest out, not only justify this murder, but on his officers turned their backs on the mayor of new york, mayor deblasio, for having the nerve to describe the real lived experience of him and his family when he talks to his biracial kids about how to deal with police. lynch would do better to have his officers stopped turning their backs on our human ights. he would do much better in that regard. andra bland.

sandra bland, encounters an officer and rightfully is indignant at a nonsense stop, and correctly uses the right to our extended to her under the constitution, only to be met from the contempt of the officer -- for having the nerve as a black woman to assert her rights to him. he is asking her, he is directing her to put out a cigarette after the summons that he was issuing her was issued. their interaction is done. if you have received a summons for me, we have conducted our business, i am out. i'm back to my car. i am not standing there saying by the way, i want you to the cigarette out, and if we do not get out, we somehow escalate to the point where i am saying i'm going to light you up. i'm going to hit you with this 50,000 volts because i don't

like your attitude. we have to come to a place where officers see the inherent dignity and value of everyone and every life from the people they are serve in their communities. tamir rice. i am going to everyone and i think it is important. this goes on nationally. people to hear a different perspective from law enforcement, one that acknowledges the reality of our ugly history when it comes to race and racism and institutional racism in our justice system. to race, racism. tamir rice -- the child was shot within two seconds of the police officer arriving. he barely exited the vehicle. this was an officer had a history of failure in his performance area -- the department that he left to go to the cleveland police department said he was unfit for duty, particularly when it relates to firearms.

in the report that comes out he thinks he saw tamir rice reaching for his waistband when you were notified by one caller it could be a toy gun. whether it was a toy gun or a real gun, for you to pull up on a shooter like that is asinine. then you fire. hen his sister shows up, and you put her on the ground and in the back of the car before you administer help to this child. that happened in black committees. contrast that with the recent shooting in louisiana, a six-year-old boy, tragic, should not have happened, but the two black officers that shot that kid have been indicted quickly and $1 million bond set for both of them. freddie gray. freddie gray. he did not leave his home in

baltimore on april 12, 2015 with a broke back and a crushed windpipe. and he didn't do it to himself, but yet officers would assert that that's the case and become indignant when we don't believe them. ellen mosley, the state's attorney for baltimore, who have the courage and integrity to indict the officers was met with the vitriol, aggressive response, attacks on her and her family by the police union there and the officers there because i am telling you, they want zero accountability. zero. none. that is why this movement that you see growing around you -- that is why the unity that you didn't amongst in the -- you created in the communities amongst you in the communities you come from, that is why the unity to build and the move that you build is so vital to the change that we need to see

because historically there has been no recognition of the value of black life in this country. period. it is ok to say black lives matter. yes, we have had our moments. them have been moments when people of all races have come together and given us some victories, but there has never been, in the history of this country -- never, a consensus -- nationally, a majority, that says you know what? everyone here should be equally valued in every process that we have. we all agree with that. there has always been at least half the country, millions of people, more than half sometimes, who would fight that with everything in them -- everything in them. that is the american reality. i am not talking about the

american narrative. i talking about the american reality. when it comes to precedent, there is good reason to those officers to be sure they won't be held accountable, especially when it comes to black life. trayvon martin, another kid, stopped, and then kid by george zimmerman, a man, who from what i have seen and heard, gives us all a good example of a text book coward. all of his fights are with women and children. he engages trayvon after he was old not to by the real police. then he gets off on the stand your ground law. contrast that with melissa alexander's case in florida. a woman, who upon being onfronted by a man who had a history of physically and literally assaulting her, and

who, in that moment announced to her that he was about to physically and brutally assault her again, she produced a weapon said "no you are not. no you are not." nd she fired a shot, a warning shot, hitting no one, killing no one, and she was sent to 20 years in prison. the process distorted by race and racism get us a result like that and you can believe a lot of people in florida were good with that -- comfortable with that. the last case i want to talk about nationally -- there are more, but i know i am unlimited time to michael brown. michael brown. michael brown was killed 10 minutes from my house, killed by darren wilson in ferguson. here were credible witnesses

at described the shooting, contradicted wilson's account. it was a case that should have been tried on the facts in front of a jury, but the prosecutor was determined to prevent that, put the case in front of the grand jury and told them to sort through it. including the testimony of a hostile witness, who could not have been and was not physically present at the time michael was shot. this was a prosecutor has a history of that kind of thing. 20 years earlier, a notorious shooting in a jack-in-the-box parking lot filled with students from a local school, and carried out an operation two suspects, killing them both, both of them unarmed, one of them may gainfully employed father. that goes to a grand jury, and it is later discovered

to that grand jury and to the public afterwards, he lied about key elements of testimony in the case. key elements. but he gets this case, the thing with it, and darren wilson was allowed to leave and get his story straight. much was made about what michael brown may or might not have been doing that day? was there a strong-arm robbery? is he a thug? is he a hoodlum? black criminality is common in this country. that goes specifically to the race of the person involved. we do not always handle youthful poor choices that way. i came across something about an actor named marc wahlberg. anybody know who mark wahlberg is? show of hands, anybody? a famous guy, well paid,

millionaire. when mark was a kid like michael brown, brutally assaulted two men, one of whom he knocked unconscious while shouting racist taunts at him. a vietnamese guy. another man that he still brutally permanently blinded im in one eye. on the tape they showed me of michael, he shoved omebody. you had officers, officials, elected people saying that is enough -- is the is warranted, because look at the kind of kid he was. that guy. good thing we gave mark wahlberg a chance to get his life. it is a good thing we saw he was redeemable. and what about black on black crime? what about it, while i am here?

people say or ask where are the protests when blacks kill other lacks, as if that is an offset for the human rights violations, civil rights violations, and brutality received from people sworn in service and how -- are empowered by law? first, people commit crimes where they are against the people around them, where you live. so there is black on black crime, white on white crime, hispanic on hispanic crime. it is crime. a better question is where are the organized efforts to address violence in black communities? i've been part of many of them nd many of my colleagues are invested in ongoing continuous decades efforts to push back against the kinds of things that we see that contribute to violence in our community and directly address it at the community level, the grassroots

level, in some cases, door to door. when we have not been able to do it slow the -- do is loaded defunding of public education, low chronic unemployment, or the mass incarceration. we have not been able to do that. deprivation and hopelessness -- you put those together anywhere, and you will get what ou get, whether that is in st. petersburg, russia, warsaw, poland, st. louis, missouri, the bahamas -- wherever you create those conditions, you will have what you have. t is not mysterious. s not only violence we talk about when we address in our community and it is important to talk about it because what it comes down is the lost

future. what might he or they have been or given us, what have we lost, our future. the violence in our communities is a problem. i'll tell you specifically the problems i have with it in a minute. the number lost in our communities does match those we lose to a criminal justice system, institutionally racist and works with the private prison industry. it states in sure, the prisons they build to run for profit remain 90% occupied. i'll say this about the issue. the specific problem that i have with it and it may be just me personally. that our young

people descendants of the community that has been targeted for suffering and abuse, marginalization and deprivation. enslate, exploited, diminished at every turn. they would now turn the gun on us and each other. that part of it pains me. i look what is happening in chicago, st. louis and other ities, i pray for a raised consciousness in those communities to get a letter picture of how we got where we are. our ver, i will call out

entertainers, the ones who profit from the death of our brothers who move a message in our community, let the death of your brother your mission in life. that's not your mission you ain't got nothing with us and profit by sending that poison to us, who see the blood flowing down our streets. host: your freedom of expression and to keep it real paid for by the sacrifice of the people who came before you. get conscious, man. wake-up. to be owing yourself used. ne of that, none of it changes the fact institutional

racism is at the foundation of criminal justice in america. there is also a future police culture throughout the nation. too many expects to listen to and too short of time to do it, maybe in question and answer. nothing we can talk about changes that. t terrorist threats, not looting, nothing. you can't sweep it under the rug or say, look, over there, none of that. equal treatment under the law is an american narrative, not reality. to make the discussion more comfortable, let me say this, and not just in this room but nationally. here is how to make this racial discussion and we talk about black and white, but we have

other races in this country, two. black and white, understand this, accept it and we can go forward. the problems i'm talking about here tonight and i talk about in all of the places that i discussed them when it comes to race and racism and institutional racism and our history with it. one had this auditory , under isler indictment indictment for any of this? why! >> because you didn't creal the conditions. we were born into this reality. it was like this when we got here. this is what we were brought into, man. you didn't do this. trust me, it was like this when you showed up. if you were alive now, our responsibility is to

acknowledge fully what that reality is, not the narrative. the reality of our history is and where it has us now, doing some about it, collectively together. that's our role. that will allow us to have this discussion. as i prepare to close, i was told we only had 30 minutes. i know i'm getting there. there are things we can do to change the dynamic between police and communities that they serve. the police community relationship and the breakdown within it was the genesis. talking about education, employment, health care, you name it, over all systems. hell tiff to peace and community. first and foremost piece that we have to address is

accountability. there is already plenty of good training. i hear people talking about training, we have great takening already but it's worthless if you don't have -- eric garner murdered while officers violated their policies to take his life. we got pat lynch with his chest looking like a dufus. accountability is everything and it starts inside the victim. one of the things i would like to see, a diversion group of current and form officers from coast to coast, l.a.x. from new york. i would like us to get involved the ovement within looking

criminal justice system nationally. people who work in the criminal justice temperature, judges, attorneys, police officers, correction officers, where you are in that system, we can clec ourselves within that system and demand and force the changes we want to see relative to how it operates in our communities and it function in our community. there are enough of us and it's right, we have the moral high ground here, man. that's one of the things i would like to see. another thing that i think -- is a special prosecutor. a police officer resulting in serious injury or death. the relationship between prosecutors and police department are too close to have a reasonable explanation that the prosecutor is going

after any officer in the department the criminal justice system that th 100% of the time. bob is a prime example of that. e was recently sued after mike browne's case by a grand jury that he illegally removed from grand jury. they haven't announced his name publicly, he is john doe. bob takes him off the grand jury and violates the state law. you don't think they don't shape outcoming. you they don't decide who gets just and who doesn't. involving police misconduct and resultsing in serious injury or death, eliminate the grand jury. yes, eliminate the grand jury. it's a secretive process and in too many cases involving police

misconduct result in the elimination of accountability for police officers because the these are young people who are american citizens, just like you, but they want their rights recognized, and their right to live, their right dignity, recognized. it is not negotiable for them. it is not up for, really, discussion and they are citizens here, too, and they fully understand the history. so, as i close my remarks, i am

first of all amazed i was able to get through them. i thought i was out on my feet. they ran me ragged. i had no idea what i was when i got up at 4:30 this morning to fly to delaware, but i am glad i came, and i appreciate you giving me your time and valuing what you thought i might have to say enough to be here tonight, and i look forward to engaging you. said the questions need to be respectful, and they do, but nothing is off limits. you can challenge me, because i believe in free and open dialogue. i think that is the way forward, and thank you for your patience with me tonight. thank you. [applause] mr. hudson: was that too long?

professor hoffman: no, you are fine. thank you so much for being here. you are the final speaker in the series we have had all semester long about race in america. we have talked about the black lives matter movement, the civil rights movement. you are here in this unique role as having served as a police officer and now, kind of, speaking out against uncivil things that you saw. as the cofounder of the national coalition of law enforcement for justice, reform, and accountability -- a long name -- how did you go from being a police officer to seeking to hold those same officers accountable? mr. hudson: it was not a huge transition when i came to the department. i came with the same ideology, personal philosophy, disposition -- everything about me was the same when i joined the department. ultimately, that is what led to me leaving that work because i

am who i am. i was profoundly disillusioned, though, more than i was before i became a police officer. i became profoundly disillusioned with the justice system in the united states and the conduct of some of my colleagues in particular, and i knew i had to stop being a part of that system. now, let me be clear about this -- i realize i have not said this tonight and it is important that i do. there are good police officers. there are good police officers. there are good people doing a very difficult job under very difficult circumstances, who have to make very difficult decisions, sometimes, and they deserve our support. it is a tough job. my contention is that the number of officers that will willfully abuse their authority and your human rights and your civil rights is too big a number to

not have a systemic policy response in place to deal with those people, but there are good offices in the country. professor hoffman: so, i am going to pull up -- to work here. you have had a couple of op-ed, editorials that have come up, and i recommend people looking at these articles from "the washington post" and vox. my students said the store you story spoke about the young black man with the crutches -- it was upsetting and frustrating to read about. were there other situations like that you have encountered during your time with the police force? >> there have been situations i have encountered, situations i have been made aware of. it is a very common occurrence to see people's rights abused

for little or no reason at all , for simple asked -- acts of noncompliance. this, i am aware, for example, of a colleague -- it is very interesting. him and i initially, we were probably -- would not say we were adversaries, but we were not necessarily best buddies. his father was a chief of police and his father got into politics opposite a guy that was the first african-american mayor st. louis that i worked on security detail. i was on his security detail. i used to be in shape. i am telling you. this guy, while he was in the department, in the bureau, the detective bureau he walked in on , one of his officers who was threatening a black subject in a chair with a taser held at it

hims genitals and telling he was going to say what he wanted to or else. my colleague walked in on that and he stopped it, rightfully, and he woke the guy up, he sees the taser, and immediately as , you would expect, he was ostracized, we do not deal with you. at the trial for this thing, i was the only person that showed up -- him and his dad, ironically -- that showed up in support of him. every other officer from the union and anywhere else was aligned against him. how dare he stopped him from threatening this suspect and ruin his good name. incidents like that -- i am telling you, i cannot impress upon you enough -- these are not

isolated, few and far between kind of things. these things are part of the daily, lived experience, and the collective experience of black people all over this country. professor hoffman: so, 15 years out of your experience in the st. louis police department, i have a picture of hear from demonstrators reacting after learning the police officer shot michael brown would not face charges out side of the police station in ferguson, missouri, just about one year ago on november 20. -- november 24. 15 years after being out, what was your reaction? mr. hudson: disappointed, but not surprised. i knew robert mcculloch was doing everything he could. it was clear early on he would do everything needed to avoid holding darren wilson accountable, and i was not

surprised by it. nor was i surprised by the reaction of the community. let me share something with you to give you a sense of the community. you see those young people turn out -- here is what they have lived, what their parents have lived. i gave a know your rights workshop four months ago in st. louis during at the end of which come in -- which a , gentleman in his mid-50's, said when i was a young man, i was moving furniture, and a police officer came up to question me about it. and he explained that he was moving. later that same day, and evening, at night, the same officer had him face down, in a shotgun at his

head, accusing him of taking things. that took place 30 years ago where mike brown lived. 30 years ago. imagine the accumulated experience in history of the people in that community. we had credible witnesses that contradicted darren's story, which he got together, and he was never sent to trial. no one ever got the chance to hear the credible testimony. even if you accept his version, an officer, if i am using deadly force against you because i feel threatened why did you , fire and shot at michael brown while he was running away from you?

if i am moving away, am i a threat, am i a threat, i am not. why are you firing at me and you do not think he had a weapon because your statement was he was wrestling and fighting with you over yours. retained it, so that nothing. it should have went to trial. professor hoffman: in addition to your work with looking at police behavior, you have also done some research on human rights abuses, particularly in the st. louis city jails with the aclu. you release the report, "suffering in silence" available online. in 2009 it demonstrated numerous human rights abuses city jail. what has changed since then? mr. hudson: not much.

we were told we had some agenda. ultimately everything we alleged with them to be true and then some. they are facing a number of lawsuits now described in the report. systemic change is difficult. you have to have people that work to acknowledge the problem. they are trying, from what i understand, in recent, to make some changes by the system, but it is very difficult. the prison system is what it is rampant abuse. , we, as a society, even if we do not believe it, we accept the were idea, at least, that the moment you cross the threshold of a jail or prison, your constitutional right are suspended, which is particularly

ironic in jail settings where you are being, in many cases, been held over for trial and are innocent until proven guilty, still, but they are violating your rights on a daily basis. i am talking about brutal beatings, sexual assaults, medical deprivations -- if you have medications and you are incarcerated, and it is being denied to you, that is a problem. we found all of those things when we did that report, and i am glad we were able to shed some light on it, but i know that is widespread. professor hoffman: it is going to take more work? mr. hudson: is going to take more work and a commitment to understand the value of living up to our stated ideals. professor hoffman: one of the common questions i had from my students. as part of the series, there is a class associated, and my 25 students do research on the speakers, and many are concerned and interested about these body cameras.

both tia and tony are asking our body cameras a sufficient solution -- is there something else that should be done to hold police officers accountable? mr. hudson: i think body cameras are a great part of solving the issues. the issue of accountability, of course. with those body cameras, you can be sure there will be a flight -- fight all the way through the process to the point where we see they are uniformly and consistently use by department because many departments right now are on one hand except in the idea that the body cameras are accepting the idea the body cameras are a good idea, but at the same time they are trying to limit the public's access to the footage the body came a produce is. they want to hold it for 14 days, 21 days, before it is released, and i do not think there is enough trust in the relationship for anyone to be comfortable with the idea of a

police department having so -- so -- soul access and custody of video footage gained from an officer's conduct might be under investigation for some potentially criminal act, you are the guys that are holding it. it is the fox guarding the henhouse. additionally, empowered civilian review oversight is something that should be in play, although i have not seen many models nationally that i would describe as wildly successful, usually because they lack the kind of authority and autonomy that would make them effective in the oversight of the police department, and the go-two argument therefore a police department is civilian not understand what we do, you do not understand the process and procedure, you do not understand what it's like to make a split-second decision, on and on, but don't ever discount common sense.

in the value of explanation. if you can tell me what you did, i can make a good decision on which side of right and wrong or illegal and legal that you landed on. professor hoffman: we had an exciting day on campus. we had a new president of the university. mr. hudson: i heard. where is he? professor hoffman: i think they are doing other events. mr. hudson: could have come to this. [laughter] professor hoffman: today, didn't students hadtion, the national collegiate blackout standing with students of color, by eventsy motivated at the university of missouri. what is happening on that campus -- what is the history of race and racism on that campus, and how can students at the

university of delaware and across the country work to make a difference on their campus? mr. hudson: it is a long history in missouri. i am 51 years old. there are people that i know that attended the university that attended and they were all on our facebook feed talking about what happened when they were there and how it lined up exactly with what is going on now -- nothing has changed. everyone was collectively, very proud of what the young people at the university of missouri were able to do under these circumstances, and we think it has applications broadly, nationally, because the issue is not only at the university of missouri.

there is no state university in the country that i think the not faith that kind of -- does not face that kind of issue on some level coast to coast, and i think students can do what they are doing already -- get involved, and you see a beautiful synthesis of like-minded students from all backgrounds. not just black students, but white students, asians, hispanics students. you have international is coming together to say we wanted world and a country where we are all equally valued and respected, our dignity, lives, futures. we are going to work together to create that in spite of this nation's is and in spite of the powers in place who would write against these young people to sustain -- would fight against these young people to sustain the system we are in now. professor hoffman: we will get some microphones set up to ask questions, but do you have any strategies in mind that could kick off these changes that would better change the justice system. comes from emily. you mentioned ways to change the practices and police department. what are practical things that could happen now? mr. hudson: there are two.

i do not believe in broad programs, but there are two and they dovetail nicely. the one is on me and us and those in the system. i am a firm believer that significant part of the change that we want to see has to come from inside of the system. the people system have the most immediate opportunity and power to really force change in it. the second thing is to add that effort to the already existing movement that is on the ground, from coast to coast, to work together with folks from everywhere -- black lives matter, and the other positive. there is movement -- any other positive movement. there is movement to work with those organizations for the changes we want to see. with that pressure coming from the outside and a critical mass of people inside the system willing to have the same commitment to change, i think we can see it happen, and i think the climate in the country is ripe for it here.

it is not lost on anybody -- it is not lost on anybody that the demographics in the country are changing, and i think, unfortunately, many of the worst opponent of equal treatment under the law and equal access to opportunity are the people that would fight hardest against the changes that we want to see. there is no coincidence. none. it is not a coincidence that when barack obama was elected president, the covers came off. the covers came off. come on. as soon as he was elected president, he saw what nation was about in pockets, and we saw a growing number of local -- vocal raises that are vehemently opposed black -- the merely opposed to black progress.

and not have to give into that. at the end of the day we are all americans and want what is best for our communities, families, country, and together we can move in that direction, but it has to be premised on the idea that equal treatment under the law has to become a reality and not just a narrative. professor hoffman: thank you for answering the question. i'm sure the audience has questions. we have microphones. we are open to questions. if you raise your hand, our student can come down and hand to the microphone to have a question for our speaker.

mr. hudson: did i do a really good job? professor hoffman: he answered all of your questions. mr. hudson: don't answer that. i'm setting myself up for the abuse when i ask that question. there comes the abuse. >> you talk about making the conversation between police -- mr. hudson: i hear him. you cannot hear him? >> you talk about what the conversation -- it could be a statement or something you can respond to -- i think we need to feel the uncomfortableness because people cannot understand without some kind of vulnerability.

mr. hudson: i think your point is well made. i agree with you. maybe i should add a different choice of words. rather than comfortable, i should have said accessible -- the way to get us into the space where we could be a little uncomfortable is to understand at the bottom of it nobody is under indictment. nobody is going to be guilty and innocent in the sense of people that are present and willing to work for change. so, yeah, there is going to be some discomfort. it is unavoidable because of who we are as a country, and when i say that, i am going to go ahead and share this -- well, i will say this for the end. there is a story i tell and i am sure it will be the guide, but it is -- vilified, but it is true. i will go ahead and tell it now. in three minutes. my dad died 86. my mother was remarried three years later.

nice guy. i would go by their home. the guy she married with joseph jones. he was an avid reader. he had a book on his table i happened to pick up and it was called "the black press" as media. it was about the black press in america from the mid-1800s to the early-1900s, and first of all, i was floored. i did not realize we had a black press at that time in our nation's history. and to see -- you can imagine the kinds of things they were writing about. they were all intelligently written articles, coherent, just really. -- brilliant. i came across one. when i see the conditions we are trying to address the exist -- i came across one article, a response from an editor to a speech that he heard.

this speech was given by a white man that he longed to the american, -- that belonged to the american colonization society and the american colonization society advocated for the repatriation of african-americans back to africa. they said they do not belong here. we want them out of here. they should go. let's put together an effort -- especially free blacks -- have to get out of the country. the editor of the paper angrily responded to -- the rage was coming off the page -- this comment. i will do their research because i talk about it so much, i will be challenged, the book exists, but i am not clear if he was directly quoting the guy or paraphrasing, but either way the

words on the page where these to the effect that" blacks to get out of this country. need them out of here because this country, america, the united states, will never treat them equally and value them equally. not god nor conscience, nor the bible, could make it so. let that sink in. not god, religion, the bible -- not conscience -- the things that animate them in conduct, behavior, -- animate human conduct, behavior, and life, he believed, could let them treat blacks as anything they have ever been treated.

see quoting or freezing -- francis got key -- francis got -- francis scott key's, the man who wrote the national anthem. that is what he believed. when i say we were born into this reality, i mean it. when i say we have a real opportunity to bring substantive change to the nation, i believe it. we can do that, but we have to acknowledge the reality of who we are and where we have come from, and not just the narrative.

professor hoffman: we have a question from twitter as well as some of my students, and jordan and brooke, and parker from twitter -- basically, you mentioned in several articles that racial sensitivity classes are not enough to help stop brutality. what are some other tactics you recommend for either preventing that, or repercussions? mr. hudson: the only one that works is punishment. the only thing that will get us to where we need to be his actual punishment for misconduct or violation. everything else will fall short. until we see officers incarcerated for their violations, their criminal acts, that is it.

many officers can be dismissed from a department for misconduct, but only to be hired by the department in the next disability over or just municipality over or 1 -- municipality over, or county over. that is it. that is the bottom-line. professor hoffman: let's open it up to the audience for another question. raise your hand if there is a question over here. christie. christie: hi, so -- oh, gosh. as a student, i am studying public policy, and this is something very interesting to me. what can we do to solve this -- what actions can a normal person take or someone that wants to go into public service could do to help resolve this issue? mr. hudson: first and foremost, keep your foot on the gas. keep doing what you are already doing -- mobilizing, taking actions across the country. don't stop. don't give up.

don't slow down. then, as you advance your career or career path, your ideals with you and get yourself in a position -- some public policy position, to affect public policy change, and be the same strong advocate in the public arena after you leave here as you are right. -- as you are right now. professor hoffman: and this is a question our students often have -- what can they do, where can they go from here? mr. hudson: pretty much what i told her -- keep doing what you are doing. you are having a tremendous -- it is furious from the standpoint that somehow you would watch an officer doing his job prevents him from doing his job, what an indictment of the system that is. what they are telling you is that you watch me, i cannot work. that is ridiculous. you have an impact on the national discussion, the national agenda, which, in turn, is going to affect policy, ultimately.

you are having an impact. continue to maintain your enthusiasm, energy, your clarity, and your conscience, and do the work that you do as you develop yourself individually, and keep it in the relationship that you are building. keep showing us to build community and bridges across the spectrum of people that come into contact with you. >> i study technology and the impact of technology on politics, and i think around this issue we have seen people using cell phones and smartphones to capture incidents like a few weeks ago -- a viral video showing a research officer at a south carolina officer slamming a student to the ground, tossing her several feet across the floor. what rattled me the most was that none of the other students

reacted. this was a normal reality. the officer has been fired, but what can we do? mr. hudson: we need to remove these officers from the schools period. we never had officers in school. i was appalled. you talked about the students not reacting, i was more appalled by the african-american administrative said it was all right -- i am good with what happened. you must be crazy. for him to walk in and assault that child like that was beyond the pale, totally unnecessary, unjustifiable, and he should have been hired. it is that kind -- fired. it is that kind of reaction that reflects -- i am harking on it

tonight but this is exactly why you hear the young people say black lives matter. had that been a white 16-year-old girl, he would not have touched her like that. he thought he could do it in that setting with that child, and that is a problem, and it goes to accountability. i am glad to see him gone, and i hope he is out of law enforcement altogether if that is going to be his approach to the children in my community. professor hoffman: i know we will have more questions from the audience. i hopefully will wrap up my questions with this 1 -- in delaware, as in other states, there is no minimum age for a child to be charged as an adult. this varies by state, but in a recent report by al jazeera america, black youth are over-represented. the suicide and sexual abuse rates of young prisoners are much higher than older prisoners. how should states and prisoners be treating youth as opposed to adults?

mr. hudson: like youth. their brains are different. you wouldn't want to be held accountable for a decision i made at 12, 13, 14 years old, for the rest of my life. i understand accountability, and there are serious crimes by young kids they need to be held accountable for, but to deprive them of the opportunity of redemption, of ever having the opportunity to give something back from those they have taken away from to become a productive member in our society -- that is not who we really are, and luckily, all of us should understand -- i would venture to guess there is not a person in this room -- i am not looking at a room full of angels. no, sir, and no, ma'am. i am under no illusion that anyone in this room, including myself, could easily have done some things that you got away

with -- whatever, but here you are now at this stage in your life and this is the person you are, fully positioned and fully prepared to do something positive and great. i think that opportunity should be afforded to everyone after we have held them accountable for the things they do, but particularly the younger you are, and for drug-related offenses and things like that -- errors in judgment more than anything, we need to understand that our youth are our youth and treat them differently than we do adults in our system. mr. hudson: let's take a request -- professor hoffman: take another question from the audience. down here in the front. thank you, abby. >> thank you. talking about accountability, i go back to detroit, the fires in 1967.

i look at sharpton, and what was her name -- marley. mr. hudson: i know sharp. >> he had the rally when it was found out it was incorrect she got raped. mr. hudson: the little girl. >> right. also looking at duke and the lacrosse -- where is the accountability from that side, and for you not to speak for issues on that side -- you were talking about police matters, but not the other side. why are you not standing up in questioning some of the people on the other side? professor hoffman: so, when people are falsely accused of a crime that is race. mr. hudson: that is always wrong, but i came to talk about police committees, not to talk

about sharpton, the lacrosse team. however, what we are all talking about is equal treatment under the law and people being equally valued. when it was discovered those lacrosse players were falsely accused, they were exonerated and the woman was held to some account for what she had done. but there are instances of exploiting situations. sharpton has been accused of that. this young lady was clearly guilty of that. but the weight of the instances you and i could name that involve black people running white in the public sphere for discrediting white to the public's fear i think personally is in comparison to the number

injureds targeted and by a system that has been in place since the country's genesis and has persisted to this very moment as we sit here and talk. it's apples and oranges. falseon was wrong for his presentation of those facts and the young lady was wrong and those players were exonerated. >> another question from the audience. you have a green shirt on. >> considering the events in the past week with paris and refugees, president obama has made multiple statements regarding them but the one thing ont became a trending topic social media was that he said his speeches. of

do think the media is perpetuating these types of stereotypes by sensationalizing they do?k" things >> probably yes but that's the national media. people are now sophisticated enough to know the mainstream american media is not necessarily the best primary resource of information you can have. i think people take what they present to us at face value and we get for it what we will and we look for other sources of information to give us a more complete picture of the issue but the media and this president have had that kind of relationship for some time particularly certainly the outlast that would vilify him at every turn. i'm not always in 100 bird -- 100% in agreement with the

president but the blackness , we are rolling with president obama. we support him, i support him, and i'm proud of the turns he has had. there issues with which i would disagree with positions he has taken. the media is going to do what the media does. they have to generate readership. think we had one more question on this side. right back there. >> i'm going to stand, if you don't mind. >> yes, sir. past saturday, we had a conference here at the chase center and there were about 500 people there. 40/60 mix ofa

black and white and it really is and was all about this issue. they is because that was opening event of things to come so i'm kind of offering the group here asking what did -- can they do, they can join that movement here in the delaware area. there are a lot of things going on. i'm going to get to a question. i am a few years older than you. probably 30. this kind of question is really where do we go from here? are we undertaking an impossible task? you went back in history.

my mother worked at this issue until she was 92. i don't know that she ever learned to like white people during that. period. but she worked with them in an effort to change the world. she did shut down a number of drugstores that wouldn't serve black people. a lot of history in my life that keeps me at it. as i look at my grandchildren and all the issues of police, i have been through a lot of those areas. is there a solution? is it just a matter of staying with it and working at a -- at it? he mentioned there was never a time that there was a pleasant time between the races in the country so will there ever be?

>> i will build off this question. winky. is there -- inc. you. is there hope? are the people of color fighting a losing battle? hope.answer is there is i believe we are in a position evolve, that condition of a better relationship between the people who live in this country of the different races coming into play. small part too the fact the demographics of the in 30y are changing and or 40 years, brown people will do the majority of the country. people are people. usingot going to be about those numbers and turning the tables. i think the generation in front a greater focus on

human rights and equality then many preceding generations notwithstanding the civil rights but i think right now, confluence of changing numbers in our country racially and changing ideas and motivation and energy on the people you are a part of the changing numbers. opportunitye is an if we seize it, if we have enough courage to acknowledge the reality of the country and what has been and what we want to be and the the work of getting to that place. i believe it can happen. i feel like i have to believe that because i have kids too.. herewant to thank everyone in the audience for being here. it's been a really important semester in talking about race and i really want to come as director of the series, continue the dialogue online, on twitter,

and other forums. please don't hesitate to contact me if you want to speak more about this. thank you so much for being here and thank you for joining us. >> thank you for having me. [applause] >> as 2015 wraps up, the congress year in review. the newsmaking issues, debates, and hearings that took center stage this year. join us thursday, december 31 at 8:00 p.m. eastern as we revisit popeh mcconnell, francis'address.

congress on from mass shootings here and abroad. gun control, terrorism, and the rise of isis. ,he year in review on c-span december 31, at 8:00 p.m. eastern. conversation dr. lorsch: with gary, indiana mayor karen freeman wilson. this is part of a forum on race relations and the criminal justice system hosted by the atlantic. by "the atlantic." [applause] host: thank you. the joyce foundation is based in chicago. we focus on the great lakes, but one of our concerns habe