thank you for being with us this week. mr. mcintosh: my pleasure. susan: the meters over to reporters. ms. morrongiello and mr. hohmann. as we get started, people looking at your twitter feed will see many references to making the wisconsin primary donald trump's waterloo essentially. why are you thinking about it like tha? mr. mcintosh: this could be the primary which projecting forward -- he lost one state but clearly has over momentum. ted cruz beating him in wisconsin shows that when you get down to essentially the two-person race, he does not win. also that cruz can win outside of the south. a northern industrial state, not a red state, but rather one that

has voted democratic in several recent presidential races. if that happens, it is a shift of where republicans are. you can think of a lot of different explanations for it. we like to take credit and say club for growth as educated him about not being a conservative and a smart thing to do is vote for ted cruz, but i also think voters are kind of maturing. early, it was i am at washington. i think things are on the wrong track. i will send a message. now they are thinking we still want to send a message and i think ted cruz does that for them, but others are saying wait a second. this could be real. what does it mean? republicans are looking at that and saying poll after poll shows he would lose to hillary clinton. a good lose the senate, and with that, the supreme court. i think a lot rides on this election. you have is very -- on this

election. you have a lot that will be influenced by the outcome. mr. hohmann: let us talk about the upcoming primaries. it is favorable to donald trump after wisconsin. new york is in two weeks, is home state. -- his home state. can you talk us through the post wisconsin plans for the club. new york is next and then several east coast states the week after that. we were looking at new york to develop our strategy. i think the margin there is so large you have to concede donald trump is likely to win, but keeping him below 50% at that point, ted cruz and john kasich can pick up different congressional districts and windy delegates there. -- win the delegates there. essentially now, we are in the delegates phase. donald trump is in the lead.

ted cruz is on his heels. john kasich is are behind. when younn: anticipate you will spend some money in new york? mr. mcintosh: how much where and how to do it. we are mapping all the way through california, the end of the primary. that is a big huge important state. it is the winner take all at large for the statewide tally and congressional this, but indiana, my home state, is along the way, where donald trump has had a lead in the past. holding this week shows he and ted cruz arnett in that. week shows hes and ted cruz are net in the. susan: can you tell us why the club for growth does not like the donald trump candidacy? mr. mcintosh: i like you. we look at all of the candidates, the major ones this

cycle, on a five to 10 page paper on the economic records. that is our set of issues. where are they on taxes, government spending, regulation, free-trade, school choice? many candidates had sterling records. ted cruz, marco rubio, ron paul rep. tonko:. jeb bush -- ron paul were on top. just cruise has a good record. donald trump has not voted on things, but for 20 years, he has spoken out on a lot of policy matters. he propose that one point the largest tax increase ever to pay down the debt. he tried to walk that debt but even recently, he said in the right to stances, i would do that all over again. he is for government run health care. he does not respect private property rights because he is for imminent domain abuse. he will take property from a homeowner and turn it into

development. tople have the the rights the home and they land they live in. we realize you would be a disaster on free market economic policies. , we have been has bee advertising to tell people about that. now that is well known. also he would lose the republican party to hillary. he could have terrible to get results. it is a policy question. ms. morrongiello: after hearing those reasons, i hate to entertain the scenario, but looking into the general if donald trump becomes the nominee, would club for growth consider backing a third-party alternative or solely focus on senate in

congressional races? mr. mcintosh: realistically, we would be focusing on senate and house races. that is what we do cycle after cycle. to gett feel obliged into every race. presidential race is the person we have done it because so much is at stake. if donald trump the nominee, we will focus back on our state and house. we have a lot of great candidates identifying and i told ge in manchester get back support the. -- them. mr. hohmann: maybe a more really or?buy mr. mcintosh: we were the earliest. we were back in september saying he should not get the nomination. we had asked to point out he is ads to point out

he is not a conservative. we watched the results and it was a sad night. we cut the lead in half with a very good ad in south carolina. had we started a week earlier, maybe we could have taking it the whole way, but our record shows we have been the first and many times the only group out there on the conservative spectrum. we still believe it. i share with a lot of the other people who are now working to see someone else besides donald trump, with it is ted cruz or john kasich. would think it is so important we will work with somebody. any information you know we are not, out there to get credit for this. we want to get the job done. ms. morrongiello: do you feel that it had other organizations, other conservative organizations like heritage action, had a they jumped in and launched

their offensive as early as you have, do you think that would have had a more significant impact on stopping donald trump from getting as far as he has? mr. mcintosh: i think the conservative groups have actually done a good job. you saw them come together in the national review piece early on. if anything that i wish we could have done earlier, some of the super pacs, had taken him more seriously early on, we could have seen a different result in the primary. i don't criticize them on that. they have a lot of things to think about. how to promote their own preferred candidate being the first thing on their mind. looking back, i think what has happened is donald trump has been a really successful person who has channeled the anger that a lot of americans feel toward washington right now. i get the anger. we are frustrated at the club.

we disagree fundamentally with a lot of president obama's policies. we have been pushing the house and senate republicans to do more to fight and stand up for that. i get where they are coming from. they feel like the system is broken.they have been losing ground . they want somebody to shake it up.our point to them is true is not the guy -- trump is not the guy. he is a showman. 's record shows he will be just as bad or worse for the guys that have invested in washington so far. mr. hohmann: you said you want to get the job done and you mentioned john kasich. spoileree him as a were maybe prevents donald trump from getting to 50? asked atosh: you really good question. on his record, he does not have as good a record as ted cruz. he has increased spending in his state enormously. tactically, there may be some

states where he can win the primaries like he did in ohio, i think that will be important to have happen. used to look at it and say if it were just a two-person race, it would be easier because donald trump never gets over 50%, but that is not my choice. that is his choice what to do. i realize you have to play with the cards you are dealt. ms. morrongiello: mr. trump has taken to criticizing you. susan: mr. drum has taken to criticizing you. have you gotten any kickback from supporters? mr. mcintosh: the phones lined ulight up. his supporters tweet us or e-mail us or make calls. usually very obnoxious. a lot of profanity. ok, that will happen. move on. i have a very good polite and professional staff, and i thank

them for being on the front lines for that. that is part of his style is if you do not go along with him, turn and be aggressive. we have seen some cases it looks like he is almost inciting violence or talking about the possibility of it. that is way out of the acceptable in american political discourse. we go to battles by voting at the ballot box, not riots in the street. ms. morrongiello: have you gotten any kickback for club for growth members or donors who may see donald trump in a different light and are uncomfortable with this unwavering position against him? mr. mcintosh: we have a diverse set of donors. some have told me they think track is on the right and they want to support him. i listen to them.they are our members, and we take them seriously . most of them have said keep going.

we think it is the right thing to do, and i take heart in that. the club has 100,000 members around the country. 20,000 of them give to our candidates. typically a summary says we don't like what you are doing for donald trump, i thought that we have not given up on the senate and house races. i hope you will support our there.her candidates we agree to disagree but find common ground on a different project. ms. morrongiello: about the senate senate and congressional races you organization has been in ultimate and will continue to there any you are particularly worried about or you think are being overhyped in terms of how competitive the race is? mr. mcintosh: let's talk about a couple of them. one is coming up in the primary on the democratic side in pennsylvania two weeks away. we don't know who will come out of that primary. he has the lead right now, but

narrow.ipate that will we worried if donald trump loses pennsylvania by 10%, there would have to be 10% of the voters was split the ticket and vote for pat. we look at florida. we have a great candidate. i think he will win the primary. again, if florida goes against us in the fall, it will be hard for him to defeat the democratic candidate there. indiana, my home state, will probably be decided by the primary. we are for marlin stutzman. is a farmer. reformer. wisconsin, johnson is there. we were early last year supporting him.

he has had a tougher time. he has been behind in the polls. he has narrowed the gap and is doing a good job, but again, if wisconsin was heavily democratic for the presidential race, it all the more hard for him to catch up. mr. hohmann: you have been conservative and in the movement for a couple decades. you mentioned the philosophical reasons you are against donald trump. you outline them in messaging from advertising perspective that is not the most effective.focus groups and polls show the most effective way to talk about donald trump, talk about how he loses in the general election. is that frustrating that those traditional conservative points -- donald trump is not a conservative is not the best way to defeat him in this climate. is that go back to the anger? what is that about? mr. mcintosh: we have been trying to analyze it.

when we started last fall, it was the best way because people do not know really who he was, and he sounded kind of conservative on immigration and very anti-free trade. one, we think free-trade is the conservative position so we totally disagree with him there. second, we did educate with that about his positions, and that helped a lot. now, people sort of know him. the good thing is 60% of republican voters don't want him because he is not conservative. youe is this 30% to 40% who hear it on the news or cd twee and- see the streets "i voting for him no matter what he says." i am not one of these people that gets frustrated voters. our job is to help them see the position we think is right. that tells me now and going forward as a leader in the conservative movement we have to

redouble our efforts to help people see what i does it mean to be a conservative? in the past, we had to show people we are not coldhearted people who wanted to take away everything they have. now, we think the free market actually makes everybody better off. now, we will have to show we are not just angry at washington. we have a program that we think will be better than what is going on in washington, and we need a leader who will free up people to start a small business, will let people make their own decisions on health care, and will protect their property rights, will give them and their children a better shot at the american dream. that is my job and the conservative movement job. i don't pla blame them for not hearing that right now. i have to think of a better way to tell them. susan: we have eight minutes left. ms. morrongiello: and want to ask you about the house leadership committee donald trump unveiled yesterday with the sole purpose of building relationships with lawmakers on capitol hill.

you mentioned earlier that all of obviously has run a campaign against washington, and he has this anti-washington message that really resonates with a large majority of republican voters. you think the unveiling a committee like that, opening an office on capitol hill will backfire among those supporters who are really attracted to that anti-washington message? mr. mcintosh: if i was in line to ask what was going on, i thought you were going to take up the place, not work with them. even more troubling to me are common to me in the past that i know how to make deals. i sit down with nancy pelosi and senator reid, and we will make a deal, and things will be good. that is very very dangerous because when republicans sit down with dems, the end up losing and caving to their agenda for increasing government. has one ofprobably his campaign staff saying this

is what you do, you set up a committee to show everybody you can be accepted by some people in washington. i think it can be backfire with his core supporters who say was he just using this and saying he will change things in washington? by the way, that is our thesis. donald trump will not really be that big of a change agent. mr. hohmann: you mentioned the educational work you have to do. you don't want to criticize the voters's motives. a higher percentage of self identified republicans feel trade deals are better jobs than democrats do. when you think about the history of the last 50 years of the republican party in the conservative movement, how much of trumpism speaks to broader problems in the conservative movement republican party? the club has said we are not part of the republican party.

we care more about electing conservatives that electing republicans, but you have a lot of republicans who are not talking very conservative, who are not thinking very conservative on a lot of these key litmus test issues. it is beyond trump how big of a problem you think that is. mr. mcintosh: i think it is a big challenge for the conservative movement, and the supporters of free-trade in particular right now have to find a better way of communicating other than the label. the free trade label is not one that will resonate. i think we have to point out these explanations have been around since the wealth of nations that adam smith wrote 200 years ago that each country is better when you have free-trade. it will not be the same jobs, but we will have new and better and higher paying jobs with a better economy, and we have to find ways of demonstrating and showing that.

also, and you and i talked about this earlier, i really am concerned about trumpism not understanding the basic fabric of our constitution, that a president cannot just slap a say toon somebody or a company you have to build here. if he were to get a in office, we had a very casual framework. it exists because democrats and republicans fight with each other but we believe the constitution sets the rules and limits. that can go away in a generation. for me,; fighting -- for me, i spent my whole life fighting for conservatives. say i will be the man and

do things. theault obama pulling groundwork that congress does not do it, i will give it, but being honest about it in the end, he has been constrained in most of the things he has done. a couple times, he has gone over the line, i think, but he has been careful about it because he is trained that way. even the most liberal democrat has not challenged the fundamental structure in our government and donald trump does not even know it.i don't think you would understand that he is upsetting the whole system if he decided to do something. it is a very precarious scenario. susan: we have four minutes left. ms. morrongiello: i want to ask a question about congress so we get a little bit away from the presidential election. 2014 club for0 growth and other organizations clashed with speaker boehner at the time. do youh paul ryan,

anticipate having or getting involved in any battles over the budget or spending proposals or seeing anything like that unfold ? mr. mcintosh: yeah. i am a paul ryan admirer. i think he will be a good speaker, but i think this next budget is a test of whether he will change direction from john boehner or not. so far, the signals are they don't want to. they will just keep running with the budget deal they did last fall. that is a huge mistake. the club will speak out against it and say republicans ought to use the budget now to show their thinning priority. usa body don't need to just go past president obama or nancy pelosi's deal last fall. the solution is paul needs more votes in the conference that will support the new leadership than boehner conditioned people to do that.

not to expend government to cater interest but not way about conservatives in their district. that is where the club comes in. we will speak out on it. we will oppose a budget deal if it does not go back to less spending, but we will also work hard to get more members who will push inside. ms. morrongiello: if i could ask a follow-up, in 2014, the organization gave paul ryan 83% on the congressional scorecard. seen him operate as speaker now for five months, would you are just that rating? mr. mcintosh: we do each year based on the vote. i've still giving him his but if heperiod, keeps doing what he was doing last fall, that will be a b- minus rating that will go down to c or d quickly. susan: do you have a final question? mr. hohmann: you mentioned republicans helped big business and the clouds against crony

club is against crony capitalism. do you think they get more power in the republican party? we have seen the business community able to drive a lot of these budget prices. they want certainty, which sometime means not making hard choices. mr. mcintosh: they want to keep the deals they have cut.in the congressional party, yes , because they are looked to for the funding for campaigns, they have gotten enormous. think they are committed to a republican majority. they have their agenda they push forward. very precarious position. you look at two recent elections. john boehner and eric cantor has been out of the office and replaced by conservatives. that should be a warning to the rest of the members that if you just do what they want, you will

not be here that want. whether it is club for growth or their own voters, we were not involved in those races except for the replacement. i will take credit for getting a good conservative. one of the things that the party needs to do is talk to the business community and say we are not here to carry your water on a particular bill that hurts helps you and her to competitor. that is our philosophy. our philosophy is a healthy open free-trade market. that is hard for the lobbyists to hear because they have to go back to the ceo and say i cannot deliver on a $50,000 grant, but they told us we can go compete. the ceo says thanks. what am i paying you for? susan: let me put you on the spot. will donald trump be the

republican nominee? mr. mcintosh: i don't think so. i don't think you will get to the majority. it is like a runoff with a front runner does not get to the 50% and you have the second election, to weave they lose because people see they are not the ones with. susan: the macintosh, president of the club for growth. thank you for being the "newsmakers" guest. mr. mcintosh: think you for having me. susan: after our conversation with the president of club for growth, david mcintosh. a lot of money, was spent in florida with the hope of blunting mr. trump's process forward, which was not successful. what do you think says they will be in wisconsin? thatohmann: he made a joke there are other things going on. wisconsin is a unique political stage in the sense that the milwaukee area has been very prominent conservative talk

radio hosts and they have been in the never trump movement for a long time. scott walker has a lot of moral authority among wisconsin conservatives. he came out against donald trump. i think donald trump lose wisconsin in large part because of his unforced errors. his campaign manager being criminally charged with battery against a female reporter think women should be punished for having abortions. i think he made a bunch of mistakes that you give people pause, by think the club has helped highlight those problems. if donald trump loses in wisconsin, which i expect he will. i have just come back from a couple days in the state, the clu. the club helped, but they will have to find a way to regrade these conditions again in new york and pennsylvania. ms. morrongiello: i agree with that. i think a lot of donald trump's

-- if he loses, a lot of the fall beyond him and unforced errors. florida, he had momentum from a big win in new hampshire and south carolina, and now we had a period of a about a week and a half or two weeks going into the wisconsin primary where he has not been on the campaign trail as much. he is pushing all of these rallies into one day right before the primary, this saturday. and he made a ton of errors in the past weeks. in the mediang his favorability ratings and how he has a historically low favorability rating. the fact that is being pushed out there so often that these voters in wisconsin are paying attention to that. it is different going into wisconsin than it was in florida. susan: supporting senator ted cruz, there is reporting that conservatives see

this as a vehicle for where someone else might emerge. are you hearing that? mr. hohmann: the club is not in that category. ted cruz is a club for growth conservative. he really is. they supported him early on. there are a lot of people you -- dave that macintosh mcintosh said he does not see john kasich successfully can prevent donald trump from winning the nomination before the convention. there are a lot of establishment us getcans who say let behind ted cruz reluctantly for now, and we can get it to a convention and deny donald trump the nomination happen, maybe pal ryan would emerge as a potential. >> we also saw this week that all the major campaigns that are

still in the process of hiring big guns in the delegates manipulation area, really counting their noses and big ring out the strategy. indicate and how important is it, that delegate process? >> right now we are in that area where this has become a delegate race. questionsa lot of that still exist about how the delegates will come into play after the convention and donald trump realize that before the convention takes place in louisiana, we just saw his campaign say that they will move forward with a complaint about the allocation and distribution of delegates in that state. i think that error on their part really reinforced the idea and the importance of how -- the role that delegates play and that they needed to bring some of the on board who has been this delegate hunter who has expertise in that area to make sure they don't get blindsided at the convention.