security. and policing with joe donnelly, author of blue, the battle to redeem american policing. and women in politics with nancy cohen, author of breakthrough. and coming up on sunday beginning at 1:30 p.m. eastern, more from the l.a. times festival of books, featuring discussions with area huffington . and the author of the 10 commandments, still the best path to follow. and a discussion about religion slanpolitics, reza a talks about jesus of nazareth. go to c-span.org for the complete schedule. and join us next saturday for live coverage of the annapolis book festival. > a conversation with former vice andident dick cheney pepperdine constitutional law

dean about the vice presidency, choosing a running mate, the balance of power, and reflections on nancy reagan and justice scalia. this is about an hour. [applause] >> thank you, ladies and gentlemen. let's get right to it. we've heard a presentation from dr. larson, that suggests your role, mr. vice president, was a political expediency. that it was a prize that could be given away to earn political credit for the president. we saw some interesting manipulations going on in the electoral college, where people

were casting their ballots in a way where so many people would cost ballets. llots. and an unexpected presidential candidate would emerge. they were undesignated votes originally. first of all, what do you make of that history? is it a history you are comfortable with? or do you find yourself dissenting from it? i thought it mr. cheney: i thought it was right on. i must admit my wife has written a book on james madison. role.overs his and the impression that dr. larson presented the other day was very much into it with my wife's interpretation. [laughter]

most people, it was an afterthought. hardly an effort to deal with so many problems as they rose in the electoral college. and that the fact that you had a couple of prominent members of the constitutional convention, which signed the constitution, issues that have not been addressed into the creation of the vice presidency. i felt it was a band-aid. an effort to deal with a and therm problem relation behind it, at a time when it was pretty much uninformed. we get into this, you quickly discover how much the vice presidency is tied up with the perception of the electoral college and the the changes that

take place in it. one also discovers a supposition from our first president, who of course receives treatment as the saint of the republic. he who viewed the operation of government in a nonpartisan way. he said in his farewell address, he warned us very strenuously about the dangerous effects of party. when you ask washington for his conception of the presidency, it's much different than the role that we associate with the president now. we associate him being the head of his party, the international leader in terms of laying out policy programs that congress will follow on behalf of the constituents that elected him. on behalf of all of the american people. washington's conception of the narrow.cy was much more

it was more managerial and executive. members of congress would ask the executive branch for their opinion on certain matters. madison writes that he worked assiduously to prevent members of his administration from answering those. we have the reasons from not answering letters from congress. but the madison supposition is that it confuses the role of president. that he was to take what was delivered to him and to take care of the laws faithfully executed. if you assume that as the nature of the presidency, does it make sense to think of the vice presidency as where there is more going on than a juror to be added to someone's political treasure box? v.p. cheney: one

ox? v.p. cheney: one thing i remember, i think i have a correct, there was a little confusion if you will on what the executive role would be. when you look at the development stages. you look at washington's first address to congress. making strategy for him. then it was submitted by the president to congress. madison wrote the congressional response, the executive's message, which he had written himself. and then again washington used , them to respond to that message. there was confusion about who was writing whom. imagine that the president of the united states called a congressional

leader to write his speech. they were making it up as they went along. >> the political climate at that time though, had such a reaction to george the iii, and the idea of a strong executive was one of the great concerns they had. in terms of having too much power over the presidency kind of the backdrop. many people at the constitutional convention, they did not have an executive. they had congress before. 1776,all the way back to even before that with the continental congress. but the ideas of the executive in this country having a lot of power -- >> i think that is right, mr. attorney general. i mention how the framers use the state

constitution as a model. that when they did that, they discovered of course there were not when the state executive. the state executives were appointees of the crown. they very much resented and resisted. post-declaration of independence, you get popular sovereignty. and some electing the governor. but to your point made that there is this profound concern with abuse of power, this unity we can jump forward a bit to the thing i mentioned in the introduction. and that is that there is this perception out there, may be somewhat explanatory for some of the books we have seen the primary, some of the folks we have seen in the primary, the rage among the people that the government is simply not on the job.

-- i do not mean this in any way to be partisan because i think it is a bipartisan exercise -- the appointments in both administrations, and if i can remember complaining when i worked for you, sir. about the strong process of confirmation proceedings and neglect of the senate, those matters. now that the shoe was on the other foot, president obama is making the complaint. the things can be troubling from a general public perspective. why is in the government delivering what those guys promise to me when they ran out on the stump four years ago? it is a more intellectual day-to-day perspective, threatening the separation of powers. mr. attorney general, you mentioned, key appointments not being made, key legislation not

being addressed, there is a tendency on the part of the presidency to go around the problem. issue executive authorities that you do not have authority for buried pursue recess appointments you do not have a 34. so the separation of powers itself. my question is this a serious one, would you describe it that way? cheney: i'm not sure how much do with the role of the vice presidency. >> welcome work on that. [laughter] cheney: i think there is good frustration out there in the country that is being tapped into for good reasons. but it is not the only one. we have on the republican side now with candidates running, what i thought was a rich field of talent.

stage, left with at this all of those supposedly establishment candidates have not done well. it has taken on a different tone than i have ever seen before. argue, it hasould something to do with the vice presidency, and that is as you mentioned, even on the issue of the presidency as to what he or she was to do, there is uncertainty about that. there was a feeling that this was a new office, they did not want a king. they wanted leadership, management, but they did not know how much. and the problems get even more confused with the vice presidency. but one of the things that i inquiry is how

does the problem of reuniting the powers into an effective government, ammunition from robert jackson comes from the days when he said the house is not to be divided and separate but they are meant to be interspersed and integrated when necessary to perform the working government, this vice president who has this unique role of being both the legislative officer and a potential elected function, this is the place where these two interests that have to meet meet. what substitute is therefore getting agreement to move the government forward in a positive way? well, the way i look at it, based on my own experience,

given by some and especially powerful position, relative to the president. >> when you hear dick cheney's voice, you hear my. it is an endorsement. cheney: i think about why it worked the way it did on my watch. and i think of a lot of reasons, to the constitution -- >> or more personal. cheney: personal. i think it is my ability to work with the congress. i have been a number of the house for 10 years, part of the leadership for eight years. shortly after i was elected vice president, i was visited by the speaker of the house and chairman of the ways and means committee. the speaker the house is a good friend. i respected him when he first came to the congress, denny

askehastert. they came to me and said, look, i know you'll be the president of the senate. you will have an office on the senate side of the capital, but we think of you as in the house. and we want you to have an office in the house. fices, one of facing the west front. the look of the windows facing always willing to memorial. towards the lincoln memorial. and the other when we had was a butler more normal office, a democratic program on the house floor. and they give you my choice. a choice.

i could have either one. but because of my background in the house and my relationships, partly because i knew it alienated my democratic colleagues. [laughter] but that is the only time it never happened. office years, i had an not only on the senate side, not only down in the west wing, but also on the house quarter. and i was able to get that position, breaking the logjam on tax relation, and that was really all based on personal relationships. in my past background with the house in the senate. >> not meeting to understate that, it a great story by the way, and i think it is a great washington story that adds to

it. but i want to give a little credit to the framers. this afterthought that they created got you that budget line and that office, to some degree, because it opened the door to the fact that he would be the president of the senate. yes, it was dick cheney who took the presidency, found the most aggravating office to occupy, and other important legislation. but isn't that interesting that this office they created, it has thiscalled, you know, just room for folks looking for some political reward. so instrumental in terms of what you would point out to be your success as vice president during your time of office. i think the framers did a little tip of the hat. >> yes.

as a matter of fact, in the white house, you have the office in the west wing. also you had an office in the office building, i believe. so they can never find you. [laughter] >> looking at the vice presidency through the years, as icently as calvin coolidge, don't think there is much thought of the vice president having a big role in the executive branch. if i have my history correct. had eisenhower came in, he -- he was used to a military structure. i think he talked about next and the coming kind of an executive nixonpresident -- mak becoming kind of an executive

vice president. is that your recollection? cheney: i believe so. certainly, it has evolved over time. one of the reasons i said no when it first was offered, i never met a vice president who matter. red. [laughter] others who went on to distinguish careers because of being president. -- ira member moment remember the moment. i was very unhappy. we had plans for operating as vice president. big projects, lots of money. and we were in a period of time whitner there were no new

starts trying to save money. we eventually left and was never happened. allegedly there was a report that he once said that he would ever serve as vice president in a second ford team is if he also could be white house chief of staff. that was the job he really aspired to. >> he didn't get a chance to do that? >> no, because he lost. he was removed and went on to other things. >> he wasn't even a candidate for vice president. >> no. and i was never a candidate for vice president after george bush nominated me after persuading me that i should go on the ticket. i think in recent administrations, going back to the carter-mondale relationship, it was a step up if if you will in terms of the degree to which they worked closely together.

mondale played a more prominent ole. i think i obviously continued in my case. and with respect to joe biden now, i don't know enough detail yet about joe's function. but in recent decades, there has been an enhancement of the power, structure and responsibility and influence. >> you are quoted. the story is told of you meeting with vice president quail, where vice president quail tells you that to be prepared to ache a lot of foreign trips, do a lot of ceremonial duels, raise the money for the party or the president. i think your terse response was i have a different conception office. >> a different understanding. >> and that understanding, since we are in a law school,

is going to run into a little head wind because one of those understandings is we have got those 15 words in the constitution that says the executive power is vested in the president of the united states. -- late just tills scalia justice scalia said that meant all of the executive power is vested in the president of the united states. not that you should lose a lot of sleep over the legal nicities, but during your advice presidential service, did you think you were stepping outside of your constitutional role? >> well, scalia was also a duck hunter. [laughter] no, i did -- obviously there were times when i played a significant role. but the thing to remember is that is what the president wanted. the reason it worked as well as

it did for the two of us, he had spent an amazing amount of time, more than i had ever seen any other president do, an amazing amount of time thinking about the position. i discovered years later after i left office that in 1992 when i was second of defense, and his dad was running for re-election, that he had gone to his dad, 41, and suggested to him that he make a change in his running mate, and that he replace dan quayle with me at vice president. this was back eight years efore. eight years before he had been think background who ought to be vice president. .t obviously was not accepted

he had a very carefully thought-out plan on what it was he want inside a vice president. i got involved. when they first approached me about being vice president, i said no. i had no desire at all to become vice president. then he asked me to help him find somebody, and we worked through about a two or three-month process. but also what i think was deliberate on his part, he never took the first no. he thought if he could get me involved in talking with him about what he was looking for, and he conveyed to me what i should be looking for. i absorbed his perception on betancesing the office to work. when we got all through with

the search, and i had offered up everybody i could think of, i was obviously a failure as a head hunter. he said you are the solution to my problem and persuaded me that i was what he needed. that is where the ultimate agreement came from. there was never a contract or even a hand shake on how it was all going to work. we just talked about it enough while i am doing the serve that i had a good understanding of what he was looking for. he obviously had decided sometime before that he had the chance to pick a vice president. >> it is fair to say that no other vice president had had the experience that you have had in both branches. >> true. >> so that there was -- in fact, his idea of the vice president, you were kind of the model, whether he mentioned that directly or not. and so it was natural that he

sucked you into the thing, so you finally became not just the model, but the candidate. >> it is true that you identified a set of experiences that executive and legislative mix that is unique especially for our honored guest today. but the other people that are pointed out are people with legislative experience. that ledge slive experience even if they didn't have the additional executive experience that you were able to enjoy as well. like lyndon johnson for example in terms of his effectiveness as president, drawing upon the legislative talent. heard from professor larson when adams tried to throw himself into his work, it was a little too much for the senate to have him be there on a day-to-day basis. w. bush that george

was more persuasive than daniel. his quote was no, sir, i will ot take the advice presidency. i would like to be dead before buried. even even if your particular president wants to overlook those legal nicities. you did do something that other vice presidents haven't done, and that is submit a letter of resignation. that is an interesting thing to do because one of the things you were astutely recognizing was that for the president to be able to be is a arena in control over the executive branch, he needs the ability to dismiss someone if necessary. and of course vice presidents

who disagree with their presidents can't usually be dismissed united states they were as thoughtful as you were to have a letter of resignation in the pact. did you have occasion to disagree with the president from time to time? >> sure, we had our differences. >> can you give us an example r two? you mentioned the amicus brief. take it that was one. we here were occasions when had differences of view. at that time it was strictly one-on-one with president, and

e would talk about anything. we would express my disagreement. lot of those were and remain private. it was important to have them remain private. there were other occasions where we disagreed. i am trying to think. well, for example, when we got nto the debate, we had discovered in the spring of visited by had been someone. he was happy that i received him. he came in and started throwing color photographs on the table. they were pictures taken inside in the middle

eastern desert, built by the north koreans. all of a sudden we find several months later that not only had they been working on a nuclear device, but they built a complete nuclear reactor for the syrians. it hadn't been fueled yet, but it was a major concern in terms of proliferation. the place it was locatesed is a isis. w taken by the israelis went in and took it out. the difference of opinion was i wanted us to take it out. my estimate was it was very important that the u.s. managed to back up what we had said

repeatedly, which was we opposed the proliferation of nuclear weapons. we had taken a strong position, and it was important that we back it up. i was the only one in the administration who felt that way. we had a meeting upstairs in he residence, and he allowed me to make my pitch. i had had a private conversation, and he encouraged . hen he asked for a show of nds, how many nations of the security council agreed with that. nobody agreed with it. it would have given real meaning and substance toe our

rong statements about no nuclear proliferation. the discovery of that reactor and taking it out would send a very strong signal to the area. i still would argue that i had the better policy option. he was the president, and he did what he wanted to do. >> you made that argument entirely internally. >> we didn't want to go out bubly. although it got out eventually. it wasn't a secret. but it was for the time being. we didn't talk about it. it was several months before we even acknowledged that there had been a nuclear reactor. >> we heard the history of the where it college, and changed from two undifferentiated votes to two votes, one for the president and one for the vice president. your original method was said

to attract men of equal stature so that the person who received the second highest number of votes became vice president was really a contestant for the presidency and was of the same -- thought of in the same range of talent, stature and maturity. jefferson himself would point that out from time to time. when the system changed so that you ran on separate balts, you sort of created a second tier. the feeling was he was creating a second tier of people who would be aiming at that second office only, and there for you would ail tract a different equal of people. larson got a laughed when he said testifies the perfect retirement spot, and nobody will bomenter me and so far. you illustrated you had enough

substance and personal gumption for take on the president of the united states, even when you were the only voice out of the context of the cabinet. -- do a mention candidate -- what our qualities of a vice president would you hold out to us? >> i think i have argued before, lots of times presidents pick running mate, might have to do with jenner, or race, or geography. i think there is only one thing that matters more than all the others put together. at is the capacity and the things of the united states. if we look back in history, we will find there have been a number of collections made over vie ar where clearly the

presidential candidate doesn't mean that. there are a lot of appreciation of precious there. i was with a group of researchers for geri ford. after rockefeller stepped down in 1976, we had to have another replacement during that summer, d i ran that search based on guidance from geri ford. george w. president bush several years later. >> is it experience? is it adherence to cardinal virtues? >> that is a lot of it. obviously a certain degree of come i can't doctor

patibility. >> one thing in terms of my role was i had taken myself out of contention. it was very clear that i was -- the g the advice vice president si as a stepping stone. i had certainly considered running and set up a pac. but i concluded after it was all over with that i would not run for president. by the time i had got tony that point, i had had three heart attack the, adam hadwin a quadruple bypass. i was skerned -- concerned that i would be labeled as a guy who lost because he had a bad heart and it would probably put a

crimp on future prospects. so i decided not to be a candidate, and i never changed in that. one of the reasons george bush was comfortable with me and he me as much latitude as did was because he wasn't wordy about what my standing was going to be in the iowa caucuses because i wasn't running. i had already taken myself out of the running. i think that was a very important part of building the struff you have to have on the capital the folks on hill. it wasn't because i was trying to influence the outcome of the iowa caucuses. >> we just want to rimmed the panelists if they have questions, they are welcome to interject "sportscenter with scott van pelt" a question. i see cards are coming. i have an inexhaustible supply

of questions in my head. two that i want to go to before turning to the cards, one is for you, mr. attorney general. e have this no, ma'am louis -- anomoulous officer. law, w as a matter of executive privilege depends on and ining that privilege confidentialality. >> how do we handle this difficulty when right in middle of it is this person who is formally not part of the executive branch in an active sense, but only in a waiting sense and is more in the role of a legislative officer. is there not a serious constitutional fly in the

ointment on that? >> well, people could conjure up one, but i think the idea of separation of powers being two or three separations among them s a wrong concept. it was the idea that power uld be disbursed among three bodies, but not that two of those bodies couldn't required further rim takes on power by requiring two of them to agree in order to have something done by the government. the whole concept behind the founders was to limit power. they found the key to having executive ability to do things, but at the same time not lose the liberty of the people and not have oppression. so they found the key was limiting power. so when they limited power among three brings, and then

further limited each branch to prapet individually on some things, such as legislation requiring two branches to cooperate. or as here, really allowing the president to determine what executive powers, if any, the vice president had. that is why they said in article two, all executive powers launched in the president. it didn't say the president and the vice president. what the vice president here has been saying is that his power as vice president and the executive nature depended upon what the president delegated to him. i think if anything, the thought of the founders were exactly in line with what they intended to do, and that was to limit power. so the branches are not hermetically sealed?

>> there was no fire wall between branches. >> and again, the vice president si, whether you want to call it an after thought or fortuitous circumstance, unitting those guys encourages that degree of cooperation? >> well, there may have been an accident of the manipulations electorate, but if you didn't have a vice president, what would you do? we have had newman ress incidents over the years where vice ng happened to the president. would you turn to the totally unelected secretary of state as the first among equals of the cabinet officers? how would you fill that gap? >> that in itself, has been the

sucks. thanks to alexander haig, we will have the line of progression. >> he was wrong. and the speaker of the house is next in line after the vice president. if there were no vice president, it would be the speaker of the house. then you would have a person who was elected by at most the citizens of one state or ngressional district elected to be president. >> and you go to the cabinet officers and you have people not elected by anyone. there is a question we do have from the audience which i think is a good one. proceedings 940, ndidates have videosen their advice presidential candidates

on their own. is that enough acountability, or should there be a primary, or perhaps opening it up to the larger convention where the delegates to the convention would choose the vice president maybe from a list, but the president narrow it had down to three or something of that nature? hat is your own thought? on accountability and the select of the vice president? >> i guess i feel the ability of the vice president to contribute to be active and effective turns ultimately upon what the president wants. think of lyndon johnson. here is a guy who is a legislative genius, king of the senate. could get anything done as the senate leader. e kennedy administration absolutely cut his rights off.

he got to go to afghanistan, and he came home with a camel river. >> you can lead the camel to water. >> well, maybe. t it was a classic case of a powerful, very experienced man who had been running the senate ffect live, and when he became vice president, he couldn't do much. we say maybe the convention ought to choose, but ultimately for him to be effective, he has to do so with the support of the president. i am not sure you are going to get something to make enough

difference. in the final analysis, you may say the president did not pick well for vice president. but that is a judgment on the president. if he is not happy and satisfied with that choice, that individual is going to be relegated to duties. >> i don't know how much your lovely wife's book on madison covers. the number of times a vice president went their own way from the president. but i was surprised as i douglas into the history to find all of these examples of vice presidents casting a vote gainst a presidential nominee, sting a vote against a presidential program. some of that was in the 19th century, but some of it was closer to today. that part of the advice

resent si -- when you send them over there to handle the time? >> well, it certainly would put strain on the relationship. recently, nelson rockefeller, there was a debate in the senate having to do with educing the number of senators it would take to break a filibuster. rockefeller got activity involved at vice president in e chair, taking the position that it was not necessarily something to get involved in it beforehand and didn't really want to be involved in it. rockefeller got very actively involved and even addressed the chamber of the senate. in the final analysis, he ended up having to go back and apologize to the senators.

.ow it can happen again you have to be wise enough to know when to be maybe a little more aggressive far afield from the boss. in the final analysis, the president is the president. you can go over and jump offer a boat and -- jump off a boat and head in a different direction at odds with the administration, and it is probably not a good idea. in the end,s the president's administration. >> a greater danger as far as the country is concerned is where the president doesn't take the vice president into his confidence. there is a story at least, don't know whether it is true

or not, that true man did not know about the tomic bomb until he became president. t seems that lack of preparation for the presidency, there has been something. there have been a few times where they have not had close connections. >> we recently had some published remarks from bush 41 about your role and mr. rumsfeld's role. public television may be listening, so we will used this as a way to describe the characterization. i know you think very highly of the elder president bush, and i am not looking for your reaction necessarily to that particular comment other than to ask you as you reflect on

-- everyone ce vice presidency, are there things in you would have done differently? >> i think think of any. john's book, a great book five or six years ago. during the course of that in a conversation with the president , president bush senior made the comment that i had undergone a change from when i had been his defense secretary to vice president. >> and he atribute it had to 9/11? >> i attribute it had to 9/11. there is no question about it. i became much more aggressive, hard nosed in the aftermath of 9/11 because it was not a law

enforcement problem the >> spent a good part of my time making certain it did not happen again. established procedures. right.ted that he was i got a very nice note from him afterward saying, [inaudible] the other thing that happened a cloud that has been in business for over 100 years meets once a year, lots of laughs, jokes, and so forth. 41 was loved.

i got an invitation to sit next to him at the table. and we smoothed over the relationship. he said there was no hard feelings. host: this is an opportunity to to do this. would either of you like to reflect on the recent passing of nancy rankin -- reagan and what she meant? >> the one thing i will say is that she did not try to usurp the powers of the vice presidency. aboutis a lot of talk being the force behind reagan.

fired did not have him but the president cited it probably be better if they found other work. nancy reagan was a very good wife and devoted to her husband. and eight years there was not one instance where she tried to interfere in policy or tried to influence the government. there was no doubt that she had definite ideas, she probably talked it to him at night. she was alert to people who she did not think were serving him well. the main thing she was concerned was that she did not -- he

did not get overtired. that was the one time she would call over to the white house office and talk about scheduling. overall she was very important to him and very important to the country. the thing she did such as taking on the drug's campaign and talking with kids and education, it reinforced things that he was trying to do. she had been a real asset not only to him but to the country.

-- you cannot have been nicer to me personally. i wanted to two reflect on antonin scalia up. guest: he was a giant. role and ismajor sadly going to be missed. our careers began at about the same time. we got to know each other over

the years. friends and when , i was parttogether of the president's energy task orders. -- force. refused to do that and said the advisoryld ask committee. i went to the supreme court and they ruled and our favor. scalia may have been on

andck hunt in louisiana they alleged there was something -- he wrote a brief. he wrote a beautiful 20 page themnt document telling where to stick it where the sun don't shine. [laughter] he was a great guy. impressed.ndously

you have that ability to separate policy differences out of personal relationships. kim and ruth bader ginsburg best -- best coupe friends on the court. >> a bust was unveiled of the vice president. in terms of that kind of came andp, joe biden made nice remarks on that afternoon. started with the concern of dysfunction.

he was able to replace justice scalia. adjustment to vacate until the next election? >> i agree with majority leader mcconnell: in saying they will not consider a nomination until after the election. obviously, there have been times before when the senate has rejected nominees. by the tactical move senate leadership. pathf you start down that and bring about to the floor on they would put a lot of political pressure on a

.umber of the members this would protect them from that. important in are terms of the court. they do not want to replace the ultimate conservative justice judicial philosophy that will shape the court for the next 30 years. a substanceg to be of debate. obama will argue his point of view and republicans will argue their point of view. i'm not surprised that there is controversy there. it is interesting to notice that this issue came up during george w. bush's last term. chuck schumer, joe biden and

were adamant that no one would confirm a justice year. last is a bipartisan direction that they hope the direction will not go in. it is a cost that is being paid. be that as it may, it this has been a wonderful discussion and there are so many quips about the vice president. thomas marshall was vice president for woodrow wilson.

neither were heard from again. thank you both. [applause] smoke-field room, meet silicon valley. we had been looking into this story. thank you for being with us. >> thank you for having me. >> all eyes will be on cleveland for what may be a historic convention. how does technology play into this? >> these candidates need to find that as much as they can about every possible delicate, particularly the ones up for