to and looks at the presidential race. we will take is next. host: good morning. one day before the deadline to file your taxes, congress will be taking legislation this week to focus on the operation for the irs and its personnel. the house meets tomorrow. the senate also back this week as lawmakers in that chamber continue working on a funding bill for the faa. live coverage on the c-span network. it is sunday morning, april 17. new yorkers go to the polls on tuesday and later today, we are in brooklyn with senator bernie sanders. he is returning to his hometown. our coverage beginning at 4:00 eastern time.

donald trump this weekend claiming the delegate process is "rigged." we begin with your phone calls. you can begin dialing. 202-748-8000 if you are a democrat. 202-748-8002. send us a tweet or join us on facebook. good sunday morning to you. thank you very much for being with us. want to begin with this from matthew inside the opinion section of the "washington post" looking at the presidential drocessing it is not rigge even if it is not entirely fair.

that is this morning inside the "washington post." meanwhile come over the weekend in wyoming, senator ted cruz picking up an additional 14 delegates according to politico. ted cruz sweeping all of the remaining delegates in wyoming during the state's republican convention yesterday. the texas senator winning all 14 delegates. it was the only candidate willing to show up in wyoming. sarah palin was expected to show up but abruptly canceled earlier in the week. that this morning from politico. over the weekend, donald trump on the campaign trail saying the process right now is not fair. [video clip] ump: the system is

rigged. they said can you stop saying that? i am saying the truth. i don't care. i am saying the truth. we have changing the system and all of these bosses that pick delegates, first of all, i am leading by hundreds of delegates. i am leading by millions with votes, by millions. hillary clinton got up yesterday and said i have more votes than trump. i have been running against 17 people. she is running against one. if i was running against four or five, i would have millions more votes that hillary clinton -- than hillary clinton. what is happening to the republican party is amazing because millions of people are coming in that did not come in four years ago for mitt romney, who let us down. he choked. let's face it, he choked. he was gagging. we have a lot of athletes.

i know some of my friends in the are good athletes. he was gagging. he cannot get across the finish line. we have millions of people right now, millions more coming into the republican party. it is up 70%.interestingly in terms of votes, the democrats are down 35%. think about it. the republicans want to play cute with us. if i don't make it, you will have millions of people that don't vote for a republican. they will not vote at all. millions of people. they are tired of the republicans. they are tired of the politicians. all talk, no action. they have had it. they have totally had it. you can have millions of people that are not going to vote, and hopefully that is all. hopefully that is all. they are very angry and they are disenfranchised. and then we have a rigged system

on top of it. despite the rigging, i think we get there before the convention. host: that conventional course in cleveland. the magic number 1,237 to win the nomination on the first ballot. a couple of tweets already. our phone lines are open at for our8001 republicans. -748-8000 for democrats. first, the chair of the rnc this past week defending the republican party rules. here is what he had to say. [video clip] >> all of the candidates have the rules of the game. they ar have all been

participating in the rule. in terms of colorado, all of the candidates were participating. in colorado, it was not just a weekend convention. the convention which is used by some states, not a lot, but actually started a month ago. then it went to the county. then it went to the congressional districts. then it went to a state convention. they can all participated at every single step of the w. there were no complaints about that system at least in colorado. the second thing i would say is that the rnc does not subscribe what stateses individually want to do with how they allocate their delegate. these are decisions that each of these states make under our rules. those have to be submitted by october 1, 2015, which they were. by the way, the consequence of not submitting a plan by october

015, is you would have to use the same plan in 2012. >> but i understand all of these rules. they are very complex. they have different rules, but he specifically said you. and youthe chairman should be ashamed of what is going on. how it's going to read is that? >> you know, i have no idea how extraordinary that is. given the year we have, i honestly don't take it all that personally, but i do have to was spawned though -- to respond though when a campaign says the rnc is rigging the rules. they are set. they are not going to change. for the next state, new york, they are out there. everyone knows what the rules

are. i have to respond if the party of which i am a chairman of is getting attacked, especially when it is not true. host: is the delicate process fair? on our facebook page, some of you are already commenting. nothing in our political system is fair. tweet. from gwb. let us check in with philip bump , who is following all of this from the "washington post" and joining us live on the phone. thank you for joining us this sunday morning. we appreciate it. let me begin with your piece this past week.

it imposes this point. here is what happens if republican delegates, the language is a majority before the convention, which is what this is all about. donald trump worried he will not reach 1,237 leading to a contested convention.explain . guest: sure. the way the convention works is you have two types of delegates on the republican side somewhat similar to what you have on the democratic side. you have people who are placed to a candidate or who are not listed to a candidate -- pledged to a candidate. those were not are superdelegates. what donald trump is trying to do is before the convention to get enough pledged delegates to know that he will with the nomination.that is the name of the game . usually the nominee of the republican party is able to do that fairly easily. the problem is when donald trump gets to the convention, if he does not get the 1237 delegates,

and needs to make up for that with people who are unpledged. the problem for donald trump is as we have been talking about, there is a lot of people in the republican party who do not want to vote for him. a lot of those were unpledged do not want to vote for him. if he does not get the nomination on the first ballot, he loses a large chunk of the delegates. they are no longer committed to have to vote for him. on the next round of balloting, he loses even more. if he does not win on the first ballot at the convention, he is in deep trouble. host: let me ask you about states like pennsylvania, where it is the next big contest later this month after new york on tuesday. new york has a winner take all based on congressional districts, by pennsylvania, 17 delegates will be committed to a candidate who wins the primary. many will be unbound. guest: that's right. those unbound are the unpledged delegates.

the pennsylvania system is unusual. every state's is unusual. every state is different from every other state. pennsylvania is interesting because not a lot of delegates will come out and pledge to anyone. host: what kind of pressure is the chairman of the party under? there will be a meeting this week. there are a number of reports that rnc officials do not want to change any of the rules for fear it will further inflame the supporters of donald trump. guest: yes. he is under a lot of pressure. -- he was under a lot of pressure before this because the party is essentially split. the best option against donald trump, who they like even less. is already in a tough spot. there are rules that exist for the convention that were set at the last dimension that can't

and almost certainly will be changed at the next convention -- can and almost certainly will be changed at the next convention. ted cruz is focused on who will be appointed to the rules committee at the convention where the rules will change. there is not likely to be any real changes before that, and i don't believe there can be. isthe system is weird. the system is funky. it is idiosyncratic, but we knew this last october. the only reason donald trump is complaining about them now after the fact is because he did so poorly. he isly do think expecting bafflement at it. host: we are talking with philip bump. let us turn to the general election in another post you had on senator bernie sanders. back on the trail in new york state.

these two candidates are best suited in the general election. what did you find out? guest: if you look at general nottion -- which is terribly predictive, but sanders and kasich do best against members of the other party. john kasich does better against everyone else than anyone. a general election outcome is tied to favorability, how people view the candidates. and it makes sense. if i ask you whether you will vote for john kasich or hillary clinton and you hate hillary clinton and don't know much about john kasich and don't have a strong opinion of him, you may pick john kasich more than hillary clinton. part of it is how many people know these candidates. john kasich and bernie sanders are the least well-known candidates for their parties. that is tied into it. i think it is a note of caution for people who say sanders and

kasich will do the best in general elections. i think it is unfair to say at this point because so many people don't know them still. host: philip bump on the "washington post," thank you for being with us. we look forward to your good reporting. guest: thank you. host: enjoy your weekend. page --acebook if you are listening on c-span radio, the question we are asking is is the delicate process there? rick is joining us from florida on the democrats line. good morning. caller: good morning, sir. no, i don't believe it is fair, but i do believe it was well published as to what the rules were. once again, donald trump, what he does not get his way, he starts issuing threats using his

followers as a weapon. like saying it is a nice convention you have here. it would be a shame if something were to happen to it. the man says that he can just turn this on and off and he can act presidential. well, sir, you don't act presidential, you are presidential. have a great weekend, sir. host: thank you for the call. let us go to bob joining us from philadelphia. you are calling on the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. good morning c-span. thank you for taking my call. it just seems to me that both sides are just, you know, they are not fulfilling the will of the people. it does not seem to me as though the votes really count for much. the hierarchy on both sides much dictates what happens. the whole situation screams,

absolutely screams for a legitimate third-party that will finally make the other two parties honest because without that kind of competition, they would just continue to run amok. it is utterly ridiculous. the will of the people is not being fulfilled. it is just utterly disgusting. i find it utterly disgusting. host: thank you for the call. bloomberg politics reporting this morning, billionaire real estate developer donald trump saying texas senator ted cruz does not have a shot at winning the party nomination. in rallies in syracuse and watertown and upstate new york, striking a message of jobs in the economy. they kept alive a feud with the republican establishment, warning the party may face a tough july when the gop holds a convention in cleveland. mike is next on the republican line from pennsylvania.

good morning. caller: good morning. think you so much for taking my call. thank you for c-span. this is why ithat like c-span because so much more in depth about these things than so much of the rest of the media. delegatehis delicate proces process, it is not fair, and that is the way it has been. the states set up the process as they see fit. this is the united states of american. has an opportunity to set up the election process the way they want, and it is not , but it is democratic i guess. but we are representative republic, and we do not elect our people by majority. donald trump knows the rules. he should follow the rules. he should not be a crybaby.

if he does not like the republican party, should not be willing to take the nomination. host: thank you for the call. this is from one of our viewers. in defense of our messy nomination process, even if it is not strictly democratic, it is better than the alternatives. anthony is joining us from new jersey, independent line. good morning. caller: good morning. should always be on the table. obviously, we would not be talking about this if it was not a problem. i think donald trump is onto something. a lot of people don't like him because he is an outsider. i myself personally think he is the political penicillin this country needs. he has a lot of work ahead of him. he has a lot to reform.

this president has run the country into the ground. i think he is going to get the 1,237 and we need an outsider to get in there and really stick up for the people, not just the establishment anymore. obama has run this country into the ground. he has a lot of work to do. we are in serious trouble. thank you. host: anthony, thank you. james says the rules are not fair, but they were in place before the primaries. inside the new york times sunday magazine, bully pulpit. pamela from fort washington, maryland, democrats line. good morning. caller: good morning. i guess my concern now about hes is donald trump, must have known something about these.

all of a sudden, when he is losing, he is not winning, he wants to change the rules. if he thought they were so bad, he should have done this years to get his party to consider other rules and how to play the game. but because he is losing, he is angry. now he wants to change the game. i believe that is fair. this is the first of his actually run for president, just to be clear about that. caller: what happened last time he ran and they ran him off because he did not show his taxes? host: he talked about it but he never formally enter the race. your point is well taken. think you very much. inside the new york times sunday magazine, one of the donald trump supporters is pictured. billng with this sweet -- king with this tweet. from massachusetts, republican line, good morning. caller: good morning, and thank

you for taking my call. one thing that really irritates me is these people who call up saying this is so unfair to donald trump. $1.8d has gotten over billion worth of free airtime. i think that is fair to any of the candidates. the process that am concerned about is these people are complaining about the delegates. how many of these people go to their local or state committee meetings? none of them want to be bothered getting involved. aboutey want to do is yap how unfair the system is when they have no idea what the process is. if you will not be involved in your state or local committees, then you ought to just shut the heck up. that is my comment. host: thank you for your calls. were guests on c-span newsmakers .

among the questions we posed to him, the nomination process of the gop candidates. here is what he had to say. >> a huge mistake. completely wrong. any type of rigging or a perception that the party hierarchy is trying to influence and change things so that the two guys at the top are denied a that youn i think is win a fair contest and get to cleveland it is a contested convention, which it looks like it will be, and you have several ballads and someone emerges. it is all done in a fair way. that is how the process works. >> would it be fair if john kasich wins the nomination? with that still be fair? >> i think there are real concerns if for example right now, the in-state requirement is in play. you start changing things like to -- and itarts

technically know that the rules committee can do that, but you start doing that and it creates a perception that wait a minute, they are trying to change it. i have never been in a single wrestling match where bit match they change the scoring system, they change the rules. they never have. there is a general concern that people will have if you start seeing things like that continue to happen. then it does become, even if it is technically allowed, then it becomes potentially rigging the game, and that is my concern. 70% or 80% of the vote saying we want something antiestablishment. that is a problem. host: our conversation with congressman jim jordan part of the newsmakers program every sunday morning. we help you tune in at 10:00 eastern.

it reenters at 6:00 eastern on c-span and 3:00 for those of you on the west host. we are bernie sanders, back live with him at 4:00 this afternoon as he returns to his hometown of brooklyn, new york. on friday, he spend one day in rome and he had a meeting with the vatican. i met with pope francis and it was a real honor." from lake placid, florida, independent line. good morning. caller: good morning. the process, how can it be fair when you have people who select the delegates who are one party or the other? actually, they are two parties. the establishment will not let representatives from the people fix the system like health care, immigration, economy. they still got problems. you talk about the rules.

in our tax code, we have 73,000 pages of rules and policies. is that fair? richard, thanks very much for the call. michael has this tweet. a reference to a congressman jim jordan said in the newsmakers excerpt we showed you a few minutes ago. it was put in place 2012 by the republican party. it essentially stopped ron paul from having his name in the nomination. every four years, the rules are put in place by the rnc and dnc. the rules committee will hold a meeting prior to the convention and there is a meeting in west palm beach, florida. it includes an open session on the rules process, something we will be watching closely. new york times editorial not looking at the process per se but overal elections overall.

arizona where many voters had to hours to, or five vote. moving ahead in the deeply thought election system, everywhere in the country. next up is laura joining us from

austin, texas, on the democrats line. good morning. >> good morning thomas -- caller: good morning, sir. thank you for taking my call. i have two comments. as a democrat, i feel my party complicit as the republican party in twisting the benefits thet it favored hierarchy or the elites of each of the parties. i don't think either party continues or is interested in representing the people. the reason i say that is because we have a federal deficit that is obscene. there is no way all of that money piled up without significant neglect going on by vote of the members of the parties in power. the other comment is if the republican convention is in any

or even has a perception of being tainted or corrupted or as far as i'm concerned, the republican party has completely lost its credibility. democrats need to look to our party to make your that this business with superdelegates does not get out party ino that that essence refuses to listen to its base. it dismays me. 1980, been a voter since and i have never had less faith in the political parties than i do this election year. host: thanks for the call. thank you. catherine serino has this tweet. by the way, during the last half hour of our program beginning at 9:30 eastern, we will turn

our attention to this covers the way from time magazine. $43,000 to pay it off the nation's debt. we will talk about the rising debt and deficit and deficit in what it means for you and your children and grandchildren. in at 9:30 tune a.m. eastern time. is the delegate selection process there in your mind? caller: on both parties, as a matter of fact, good morning. how are you doing? host: fine. caller: i have two short comments. they are definite on both sides. they are both ran by the oligarchs. what has not been mentioned on c-span or the mainstream media is bill clinton's ownership of five oil companies that are like shadow companies.

he is funneling wall street money through that and nobody mentions that. my other short comment is about bill clinton and his wife. they both own $100 million. they are oligarchs. i am ashamed of how they exploited the black community. i am a proud black men of 60 years plus. i am a 47 year united states marine vietnam era. and the people in the senate have totally sold out the black community as far as the liquids and is concerned while bernie sanders was handcuffed to a woman fighting for students rights and women's rights, the black vote, the black rights. hillary clinton was campaigning for a white racist senator from andona, barry goldwater, nobody says anything about this. she is not disillusioned to the

black existence. she is the problem. think you very much. have a great day. host: thank you for the call. the house and senate both in session this week. is she at nancy pelosi, blocking the rise of young dems? this is the story inside saying generation gap. nancy pelosi is not bowing out as the head of the house of democrats, but some younger members are restless. -- sogazine writing about long magazine writing about hillary clinton. this issue came up on the cnn debate that took place in brooklyn on thursday. [video clip] >> to you about to take this

fight to philadelphia no matter what? >> i think we will win this nomination to tell you the truth. acknowledge what is absolutely true. cleaned ourinton clock in the deep south. no question about it. we got murdered there. that is the most conservative part of this great country. but you know what, we are out of the deep south now, and we are moving up. here, we are going to california. we have a number of large states there. having won seven out of the last eight caucuses and primaries, having a little of excitement and energy among working people doingw income people veteran events, donald trump and the other republicans in poll than secretary

clinton is, yes, i believe we will win this nomination, and i believe we will implement donald trump or whoever the republican candidate is. secretary clinton: let me say this. >> go i had. ahead. go >> i think it is important for viewers to know that i have a lead in pledged delegates presidentwider than barack obama's lead was over me. we won florida, texas, arizona, massachusetts, ohio, illinois, north carolina, missouri. i think where we stand today is that we are in this campaign very confident and optimistic, but it all comes down to reaching every single voter. i am on taking anything for granted or any voter or any.

-- any place. host: the syracuse post-standard is running all about this in advance of tuesday's primary. when the votes are counted in new york's republican primary tuesday, one candidate will make national news for winning one of the largest states in the nation, but the real battle is to see who wins -- the real battle to see who wins the empire state will continue until mid-may. a small number of republican influence brokers will hold the power to derail the popular vote by appointing their own delegates represent their candidate in the republican national committee. also a look at how it works for the democrats. this is online from the syracuse post-standard. relevance to the cover story, no room at the top. in theelosi and her role democratic leadership is the cover story for cq weekly.

isaac is joining us from connecticut, republican line. the morning. caller: good morning, steve. underscore to tell all the donald trump supporters that don't forget about the right and option -- write-in option. if the rnc does not think the donald trump is the nominee, there is a write-in option. when hillary clinton says she has one million more votes than donald trump, you have to remember that she did not have 14 people, 14 other candidates running against her. of course she will get more votes cast in her favor on her 13 orhen donald trump has 14 other people to compete with. i really think there are other numbers out there. if donald trump does not get the nomination, there should be some kind of a political revolution and donald trump should win by the write-in option.

host: taken for the call. darrell is joining us from the bronx. you going to vote on tuesday? caller: yes, i am. good morning, steve. thank you for taking my call. my candidate is hillary clinton, secretary clinton. unlike the other ca llers, i will answer the question. i think it is a fair process. knew the rules with a decided to campaign. for donald trump talking about the superdelegates, i cannot remember a time in the past 25 years where the super delegates have gone against the will of the pledged delegates. if they can and does well, if they perform well in campaign well, they arwill do well.

a few calls back, listen. disillusion to the black to hillarys not clinton or bill clinton or president bush. it is not any of those people. stop looking for scapegoats and blaming others would you should look outside the door and find out what is it you are doing with your community to help the black community. i am a member of the african-american race. host: darrell from new york, thank you. philip bump takes a look at superdelegates and whether or not they reflect the vote of the electorate. he joined as earlier in this half hour from the "washington post" and tweeted it out. blue is hillary clinton. orange is bernie sanders. you can follow philip bump as well. he covers politics for "the fix" at "washington post." good morning, democrats line.

gary, good morning. caller: good morning. how are you doing? host: i am doing good. how are you? caller: good, good. i am a democrat and i want to say thank you to the superdelegates. if bernie sanders gets the nomination and he gets it without the black vote or the latino vote, can you imagine what will happen to the democratic party? my god. we have one party that is not represented. we are not looking to the republican party or democratic party for solutions. we are looking to ourselves for the solution. as far as the republican party is concerned, i remember they bashed barack obama for eight years saying a one term senator is not qualified to be president. now they are trying to embrace ted cruz. that is the hypocrisy of the whole system. but you know what? it is the only system we got. some say it is the best we got.

i am hoping it turns out that we can get hillary because we need somebody to back barack obama up. the is a very successful president and as an american who does not get involved in politics, i am really proud of the way that men served this country, him and his family with no scandals. they are above reproach, and i am grateful for that. thank you very much, steve. host: another tweet. hillary clinton and her campaign sending a tweet earlier this month looking at the overall popular vote saying as of april 6, he has received more votes in terms of popular votes than even donald trump or bernie sanders. next is philip joining us from centerville, massachusetts. independent line. good morning. caller: good morning, steve. t is fair.tes, is

a gentleman named anthony was saying barack obama was running this country into the ground. i want to know where was he at when george bush ran this country into the ground? we have a $19 trillion debt. using since the republicans have been in power all this time, you wouldthink that they start raising taxes, but they don't do that because that is not in their dna. i want to ask a question to america. how do you suppose we get out of this debt without putting people to work? they sit in congress the past seven years, they had control of course. not once did they put a proposal do anything with the infrastructure or do anything with the states that have problem with their drinking water. that is going to be here until

it is dealt with. wheree a train situation transportation should be a lot better. i don't know. america sitting back and letting these people do what they want to do i guess because most of them are doing ok. even though i live here on the cape, it is what it is. i just wish we wake up and do the right things for the country and start looking out for each other and loving each other, steve. host: thank you for the call. this is a headline from the buffalo news. a primary like no other. it is like nothing new york has experienced in two centuries of of thefor president in united states. donald trump will wrap things up at a rally in buffalo. it will be part of our coverage here on the c-span network. ricotta yesterday with ohio governor -- we caught up yesterday with ohio governor

john kasich when he was doing what candidates love doing the eating.new york meeti, [video clip] >> because of my vision going forward in cutting business taxes and individual taxes and balancing the federal budget, because of the efforts to try to bring people together and remind people in this country there a e americans before they are republicans and democrats, there has been a series of political conducted.have been i am the only candidate who beats hillary clinton on a consistent basis every single time. every time. yesterday, the electoral college had a consolation applied to it. guess what happened. the two candidates who are running at the same time i am clinton.ed by hillary

in the electoral college, i crushed hillary clinton in that survey done yesterday. i want to ask you something. i want to ask you something. if you feed on the negative attitude of people, you will have high negative ratings. go and try to sell something when people don't like you and with a don't trust you. or go and try and sell something when you have a positive message with a record of accomplishment. ladies and gentlemen, i am just getting back here with the senate president. you know what will happen if we nominate people who have high negatives and cannot beat hillary? we're not just going to lose the white house. we are not just going to lose the supreme court. but i tell you what, there is a good chance your senate majority leader will be the senate minority leader because we risk losing everything from the white house to the courthouse to the statehouse if we don't advance a positive uplifting unifying message to this country.

that is what we need to do. host: of course, john kasich on the campaign trail in new york. he was at the state republican party dinner on thursday. we caught up with him over the weekend in new york city. you can watch the programming on our website as with all of our programming available online anytime at c-span.org. let us go to st. petersburg, florida, republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. i have to say i am a donald trumper. and theaugh about that whole thing, but i have to say one thing. what donald trump and bernie sanders is doing is changing the entire election. i understand the delegate process. it was ridiculous in colorado. it just doesn't work. we need to change things. that is what my whole saying is about is that i really

want to see donald trump. we need a change. we need to change the policy.the people that vote now does not matter anymore . that is all i have to say. it makes me upset. thank you steve for taking my call. have a good day. host: thank you for the call. inside the "washington post" as we said at the top of the program, a convention in wyoming. on theining delegates republican side, all 14 will go to senator ted cruz. donald trump is outworked in states including virginia and georgia. focusing on the process, we are wondering whether you think the process is fair. you get the last word from idaho, democrat. good morning. caller: good morning. just listening to the last caller, if he gets donald trump in there, he will recall that guy before he gets off the ground. but anyway, the reason i was calling is hillary ought to wasnd herself saying bush

our president and she is going along with him. a lot of people voted for that war. they were wrong. keeps same token, sanders arguing with our president obama. he keeps saying he knows how to run the world. he just got lucky that people ,tarted to donate to his fund and then it mushroomed, which is good for him, and i like sanders, by don't think he has a chance against hillary as far as hitting the ground running. i hope everybody realizes that. host: your last point. caller: they bring benghazi back up and anything back up. they throw it at the wall and see what sticks. i am just hoping and praying hillary makes it. host: thank you. appreciate it. finally from scott, who sent us

a number of tweets including this one. you can continue to weigh in by sending us a tweet or joining the conversation on facebook. a major supreme court case coming tomorrow. oral arguments getting underway at 10:00 eastern time. we will be previewing it today and tomorrow on the "washington journal." sam baker will be here to explain the immigration case and potentially what it means. author and columnist and fox news analyst juan williams is here in our next hour. he is the author of a new book, "we the people." i were guest is jim jordan this week. he leads the conservative freedom caucus group. he explains why the freedom caucus is not supporting the republican budget plan. the deadline was missed on friday.

as a result, not enough votes to pass the budget. here is more from c-span's newsmakers program at airs following the "washington journal" program at 10:00 eastern. [video clip] >> the only thing worse is spending money. you have to look at this in a real-world context. the debt is at $19 trillion. this year's shortfall, this year's deficit will be $105 billion higher than expected. within that context, we sent look, maybe we should not spend $30 billion more. maybe we should at least hold the line on spending to start deal with the fiscal mess we are in. every single family, every single local government, every township, city, state has to do that. the one entity that does not happens to be the one that has a $19 trillion debt. many times, we have to go to a you. omnibus or what have

what we think we have to focus on is what the freedom caucus is all about, which is standing up and fighting for the countless number of families around this country who feel like washington has forgotten them. we are supposed to do that. we understand they cannot do what washington does. we need to start control spending and that is all we are advocating in our budget. which wouldon a cr, be a continuing resolution continuing the current budget level into the next fiscal year. as you know, the argument coming out of speaker ryan's office is that the senate will not support the lower budget numbers that you advocate so the inevitable result of your position is that continuingbe a cr the current budget level which is almost the same as the bipartisan deal struck last year. so what is the point then of the position you are taking? >> the point is to do the right thing.that is always the point. the point is to do what the

we told the voters we were going to do. this country has a serious fiscal problem. the debt is now at $19 trillion. the point is to do exactly what we told the voters we are going to, the voters who elected us to do what we sent. -- said. just because the senate says if you do not give it our way we will take of all and go home does not mean we should abandon doing what we told the voters we were going to do and what they elected us to do. host: we hope you tune in to the newsmakers program. i was just this week establishment jim jordan. he is the republican chair of the conservative house freedom caucus. we want to welcome sam baker of the national journal who is covering the court, including tomorrow's immigration case. thank you for being with us. guest: thanks for having me. host: let me begin with news this morning inside the new york times, the story of the pinto family in fairfax, virginia, any number of immigrants anxiously awaiting the supreme court outcome. what is tomorrow's case mean for

this family and others in the u.s.? guest: there is a huge amount riding on this. president obama announced that allows up to 5 million people to stay in the country so there is a huge amount on the line for real families across the country. this is a program that is aimed at the parents of children who are citizens or who are legally in the country. a loss for president obama here could potentially mean families being separated, parents being sent back across the border where the children are allowed to remain in the country. it is a very human story in addition to an important story. host: let us take a step back and ask you about the president's order on this which is part of the political argument in washington. guest: that's right. one of the big questions in this case, it is really about how you

look at what the president did. hen he came out in 2014, said children can stay in the country. we will not do for young children and then cannot out with his policy that said the parents of these children were eligible to be here. we will also differ enforcement action, meaning we will not focus our deportation resources on those parents. when we get into court tomorrow, the white house sees that as we only have so much money to spend on enforcing immigration laws. we decided where we are going to spend it. critics see it as a change in immigration policy and sort of a new grant of legal protection to people who are not eligible for it before. where ar you see that says a lot about how you view this? host: a lot of references to doccca and doppa. guest: doppa is deferred action

for children. a slight extension of docca and doppa. host: lettershost: for this in terms of how many families and children are involved in this. as you can see on the screen and if you are listening on c-span radio, the childhood arrivals between 2012 in 2014 i for 1.4 million children. accounted for 1.4 million children's and the parents, 3.6 million so a lot of people involved. guest: absolutely. host: your piece available online. the chief justice of the united states, john roberts, is the one the white house is pay particular attention because it remains a 4-4 court with the death of justice antonin scalia. how is the solicitor general framing the argument? guest: that's right. with it being a 4-4 court, the only way for the obama

administration to win this case and implement any part of it before he leaves office is to win over chief justice roberts or chief justice anthony. they are making an argument that seems like the kind of argument you would make if you have roberts in your sights. 26 states led by texas who filed this lawsuit. the white house says they don't have the right to be -- they are trying to tell the court you have to rule on whether it was right or whether we did it the right way. this case cannot be in this court because states cannot challenge the federal abuse of power. chief justice roberts does not like to be in the political limelight. he keeps ending up there, but it is not his favorite place to be. he does not like to see the courts overly put. what the white house is saying if you let this case go forward, if you let the states challenge the federal government now, everything the federal government ever does

immigration, changing the formula for calculate poverty, all these other nominally federal policies are all going to get challenged in court, and the court will have to settle all of those political disputes. host: you write the following. -- thetice department is states cannot challenge federal immigration policy in court. guest: that's right. therder to challenge federal policy whether it is an act of congress or something the administration has done you have to have standing. in order to prove you have standing, you have to prove that policy has injured you or will injure you in some way. what texas is saying they have suffered additional costs the state will have to bear to issue driver's license to people who will remain in the country. there are the costs is what they are focused on the harvest license cost. the administration says this is an incidental change. the state chooses to subsidize

drivers licenses for some people. it can always change its mind. the federal government says that is not enough of an injury to bring this case. host: texas one of 25 states that brought this case before the supreme court. if it is a 4-4 ruling when the high court decides in june, then what? guest: then the supreme court decision does not set any but the lower court ruling with came out of the fifth circuit court of appeals would remain in place. technically what would remain in place is just an order blocking the limitation of the policy. the lower court has not ruled on the merits of this yet. there is a lot of unusual procedural stuff happening. the lower court has not set yet whether this policy is legal or not, but they have said the administration cannot implement it while that question is proceeding, but it is a very conservative court. it is a court that some people feel like plays politics with

just putting in place injunction in the first place. it would prevent the obama and his mission -- obama administration from the voting this. host: you will be inside the supreme court tomorrow. will you be looking for? guest: i will be looking for two big things. one, how much time robert ted kennedy spend on the standing question that we discussed. it roberts moves past that quickly, it will be a bad time for the white house. they want that to be a significant portion of the time that is taken up on monday. the other thing will be how those two justices frame the issues. are they asking the lawyers in this case does the administration have the authority to grant work authorization to these people? or are they asking does the administration have the authority to make changes in enforcement policy that

incidentally affects because they'll will tell you whether or not they are accepting the state's frame of what this debate is about where the federal government. host: we will be at the supreme court tomorrow morning as part of c-span's washingto "washingtn journal" discussing this case. our guest is sam baker. you can send us a tweet. for republicans, 202-748-8001. for democrats, 202-748-800. let us go to lead joining us from new york. caller: good morning to you. in response, i was reading the heritage foundation article. they said 400,000 anchor babies are born to illegals each year here in this country. at about 2.5 years, that would be like a million. there were saying now the -- the of these illegals

illegal parents of these anchor babies are also allowed to stay in this country, and they pointed out that 40% of them are on some form of public assistance. i wanted to know your comments on the. -- i wanted to know your comments on that. host: thank you. appreciate your call. guest: one of the important factors in this case, president obama did this right in the wake of congress's rejection of comprehensive immigration. at thatof billed it time as i am doing as much as i can on my own to advance the ball as far as i can. now the administration is going into court and sing this is actually pretty small -- saying this is actually pretty small. it is no big deal. how much immigration reform do you think obama tried to a comment on his own here really does weigh heavily on the

legality of what he said. host: bu let me ask you about the house republicans. they will have 15 minutes to make their case before the high court. how unusual is that? guest: they asked for that time. the court here has done a lot of theys to sort of make sure get everybody in and get everything in. they have added a couple of legal questions for the oral argument attorneys will have to address. i think that is consistent with the court cost housekeeping. we will check every box. as you indicated, this is a partisan divide between democrats and republicans. done a study.as in addition to the partisan

divide, it is a generational divide between young and old. , what research the story is your takeaway? guest: that is very true. i think that -- you see that in the public polling about this issue and see it in who is globalizing around this particular case. you see that in a lot of the controversies that surround the obama administration in general. host: it is impossible to read the tea leaves and understand how the court will decide. vocalll be looking at how justice roberts will be before the court. who else would you be looking for how long the oral arguments will last? guest: they are 45 minutes, but they are usually and hour. -- chief justice roberts, this is the only case of the day.

when a hour struck, they were done. guest: that is one of the key differences and is probably for the best. questions.s have i think the other people to really keep an eye on is just as alito and justice justice sotomayor. clarence thomas really asks questions. if he sees alito roberts or kennedy trying to side with the white house. interesting to see if he will be able to bring them back into the conservative fold. you will see justice so to mayor on the left -- justice so to

tomayor asking questions. let me go back to this "new york times" story. husband and wife and three children, they are awaiting the supreme court ruling. they came to this country from .olivia what happens if the court does not limit or favor? will they be deported? guest: i don't think anyone really knows. as a factual matter, what the obama administration is saying is true. there is only so much money to be spent on deportation in each year. so, every person who is in the country illegally does not get deported. it is not liked -- it is not like, if the obama administration loses, all of a sudden the 11 million oh in the country illegally immediately get sent back.

those people are certainly at greater risk. one of the concerns is that you will drive people for the backend of the shadow economy where people are not comfortable becauseg local services they are being afraid of being deported. you can't guarantee any one person will be deported, but the risks are higher, and they will no longer have formalized protection. host: we are with sam baker. his work is available online at nationaljournal.com. caller: good morning. if we would quick sporting them and giving them -- if we would .uit supporting them this is why donald trump is getting so much attention. this is getting ridiculous.

middle class is going under. the middle class is just going down the tubes. , theyats and republicans have to have immigration coming over here to get the wages down. this is a scam going on. you are going to need new voters. chancey would have the of being deported if it does not go through? host: thank you. guest: i am not quite sure. that is a good question of how much the administration would be able to keep up with deportation and this enforcement action. they will have to make a decision on who to deport the matter what. but we talk about the policies of politics, this decision will

come down at the end of june when the big decisions always do. a couple of weeks before the first contested republican convention in decades, were immigration is already the central issue. how that plays out, does it people? doesd his it stoke anger? the politics of this giving the timing of the republican convention are going to be explosive. host: that hypothetically say that the court rules that illegal immigrants must be deported. who authorizes the money, congress? can the president resist doing so? there are a couple of ways the court could write this

ruling to address that question. that is an argument you have for jobthis play roberts' village. one of the arguments texas made is they laid out a path where the supreme court can say, they are not ok as it was done. without really ruling on the policy itself of the process by which it was implemented. regulation be formal where the public can provide comments and you go through the state. that takes a lot longer. i think there is a good chance that if the court rules against president obama, that could go that way. once they come in to office, in which case, you can see a similar status quo reestablishing itself after a year or two. host: will john roberts i'm with

obama on immigration? that is the question. charles and north carolina. good morning. caller: i really appreciate c-span and appreciate your show today. just a couple points. one, we are the most compassionate country in the world. we taken more people every year by far than any other country. i think that germany may be second. even in the refugee crisis and so forth, we have been a shining star taking in people. these are people, many of which, did not knock on our door. these are people, and some way, got to our country. to say that states do not have a standing when the burden of the language problem, when the burden of social services, when the burden -- these people go to our government must they are

here, illegally, and say they need help. to say there is no social cost to this country for all of these immigrants, and to say -- that is one point. the second point, we have one million people into our country. to say we are picking and weldren -- and choosing, will educate you and teach you our language and give you support and allow your children to be born here for free. it is just a ridiculous argument to say the states don't carry a social burden for immigration. thank you. host: thank you. guest: that is certainly an argument the states have made many times. they have focused on drivers licenses because that is a very direct cost.

they have mentioned some of the other social programs, education costs, other services that the states either provide or pay into. ofpeople who have some sort quasi-illegal status in the country. the administration response to that is -- deferred action is not an issue. these people are not here legally, they can still be deported any time if they can -- if they commit a violent crime. some sort of which lawful presence is being provided here, that is really a subject of a factual. host: what if a president clinton or president obama does not fall short of any court ruling? here is a tweet, what about president cruz or president trump?

then what? this policythough was technically still be working its way through the lower courts, you would see republican president immediately. it is not even a regulation, is not even an executive order, it is an executive action is what they are calling it. it would be easy for a republican president to reverse and put the brakes on it. question would be with a use the same procedure to set out their own deportation priorities? if they do, could that be challenged in the courts as well as obama's was. host: let's go to james in connecticut. good morning. caller: thank you for the conversation. i have a couple of questions on the mechanics of the supreme court. first question is, if the states don't have standings, and the court decides they do not have

-- does that mean that the lower court ruling is nullified because of a lack of standing? can a state bring a case to the court if they haven't had any aal harm since this is non-enforced policy, they cannot experience a real harm? those of the two points. host: thank you. guest: today the first question first. if the supreme court rules that the state do not have a standing, then the whole case is thrown out, not just the procedural issue. it is not go back through the lower courts. president obama would be free to begin implementing a policy soon as he wants. , on the second question , what was the second question? host: let me go back to the resistance by congress.

let me present another hypothetical. the house is controlled by the republicans in the senate is controlled by the democrats in 2016. guest: yes, depending on who the president is, you might see whatever the outcome of this case is used as an argument to try again on comprehensive reform. to say, all right, this was a mess, obama tried to do it, maybe he did it, we don't know how long it will last. we give the president much more, sort of, direct authority in terms of what he or she cannot do moving forward. the argument you would hereafter four/fouris it is a tie. host: immigration and tomorrow' court case is our topic with sam baker of "national journal."

we welcome our listeners on c-span radio. denny, indiana, good morning. caller: good morning. thanks for c-span. figuredr, earlier you 11 million to indicate a many illegal immigrants are in the country. i have been hearing that number for 10 years. 11 million illegal immigrants in the country. there is no way that number is accurate. the number is probably 30 million or 50 million. they come in every day. if there were 11,000,010 years ago, there has to be more now. that is really my only comment. that ties into what the administration has said so many times in this case that there are too many people here to deport everyone who was illegally here. isdon't even know everyone

or know where everyone is. that is where we have to focus our resources. unpopular with republicans. they would rather see much more money spent on enforcement and deportation. but that is sort of, related to the rationale for this policy in the first place. host: arnett caller is from texas. our next caller is from texas. caller: good morning, gentlemen. if we are going to deport anybody, why don't we start with the 38,000 criminals in the united states. number two, why is it the cubans are allowed to come through .osta rica as a port of entry and automatically become eligible for citizenship? thank you. that is a very similar question that has come up a lot in the briefs in this case.

classes of lot of immigrants, including refugees from unstable political situations, who congress has said can come into the united states in an accident fashion. ofre are a lot of examples categories of people that pass administration, including the clinton and bush administration, that says, we do not have time to get a law passed. we are just going to allow it. you have seen that play out. they're trying to tell the court, congress has that at this time and this time and this time and that only congress can do it. administration comes back and says, administration has done it this time, this time, and this time. it will be up to the court to balance those two out. the notion that

illegal immigrants don't pay their share of taxes is just another right-wing myth. let's go to fargo, north coda. -- fargo, north dakota. caller: i have a question. i know someone who came over here. anyway, i cannot mention names. have people that are foreigners that come over get, why don't they citizenship before they can come over here? and to pass a test to come over here, instead of bringing them over here, and they have to take the test? host: keith, the test is to qualify for citizenship. just to comeear, over to the u.s., they should take a test? caller: that is what i am saying. androught people over here

they have to take the test while they were here to pass to stay here. takehy don't we have them a test over there before bringing them over here? host: ok, thank you, keith. you'll get a response. the reason a lot of people come to the united states ,o work toward citizenship people gain work visas or student visas. not everyone who come to the legally intends to become a full-fledged citizen. host: in this case, does this apply to the hb one visa program? guest: no it does not. caller: thank you for taking my call. this problem is the easiest to solve without costing very much money at all. all we need to do is in force

e-verify. with no job, they will self deport. and at the next president is a republican, and we have an attorney general, we took the handcuffs off and make the sanctuary cities illegal, which they truly are, and do something about it, this would solve itself. we need to go after government officials to create cities. this is a federal offense and they should be in peach or in jail. thanks for taking my call. respond? you want to guest: century cities are their own dispute that the administration has been trying -- kind of severed from this case. same idea that you hear almost as of the political spectrum. it would be better if there could be a legislative solution here rather than leaving it up to a president from either party to make this policy ad hoc. host: let's go to joyce.

caller: yes. we have federal laws against illegal aliens. i agree with e-verify. they bring down the wages on our citizens. the we are on the hook to pay for every child they have here when they are illegal, and welfareely, they go on and social services. it is costing us trillions of dollars. there is a "new york times" article that we are paying $600,000 a month to support people. i don't believe that. we should put much more money at the border to keep people from coming in to begin with. plus, all the illegal people who murder our citizens and our let .ut of jail

our police departments are working together properly. we are spending billions and a trillion dollars trying to get rid of these people. and with a come here and take low-wage jobs, we still have to so theye their lives can have lower wages. we have to feed their family. family, givetheir them housing, and now they are bringing in syrians and everyone else that wants to come in. people have been waiting years, legally to come into this country, to be productive citizens. and when they come in and and likeour wages century cities, you cannot above ournoncitizens citizens. it is ruining this country. host: joyce, thank you for the

call. her comment is emblematic of the politics behind this case tomorrow. guest: that is absolutely true. and both sides of the argument plan to go after the point she is making. you have a lot of conservatives who see it rightly as a kind of leniency. it is not a hard line. there are people who have come into this country illegally who commit very serious crimes. what the obama administration would say is let's do focus our resources on those people. i think you are absolutely right. it just captures the politics. host: let's put this in terms of numbers. about 1.4 million children and more than 3.5 million parents dapa program.the

instead make this point, it is worth 11 million people cheating are not paying taxes, without also be too many to prosecute? jail in pleasanton -- let's go to joe in pleasanton, california. is our the big problem laws are not enforced. illegally.ming here i do not understand. illegally. we spent billions of dollars to build up the border control and they are still letting them come in. no one has any idea how many. afford to take in everybody that wants to come

here. we are in trouble financially, and nobody wants to admit it. let me ask you, were you born and raised in the u.s., or did you come here from another country? caller: i am a u.s. citizen of the united states. i was born here. i am not an immigrant like the other people say. i was born here. here in thisorn country, you are not an immigrant regardless of where your parents come from. host: thank you for the call. mean, a lot of the people from dapa were born in this country from two parents who are not citizens. that is the population we are

talking about. host: beverly, from missouri. good morning. caller: yes, how about congress doing their job? john boehner bring a bipartisan bill to the floor, and then we would not have to be going through the court? it was bipartisan, it would have done been passed. we would not have to spend all this money to go to court. it would have been fixed. host: 2000 and five with president george w. bush and went nowhere because of republican opposition. maybe it would fare little bit better and then next congress with a democratic president. you can see the political argument for that. there again, it is still a long shot, maybe less of a long shot it was a couple of months ago to take back the house of representatives, and that is where the resistance had been.

it -- that is where it was last time. it was speaker bader, not the senate, that stood in the way doing comprehensive immigration reform. kathy, last word from cherokee, north carolina. good morning with sam baker of "national journal." it,er: the way i look at there are a lot of immigrants already here. they have families that are already here. it would not be fair to uproot , parents, they are already here. to legalize a bill the ones who are here if they had a clear record. legalize them, let them pay taxes. let them go into the army, or whatever. you know, you have to look at it both ways. what it boils down to, we were

all immigrants. the native americans were here first. host: kathy, thanks for the call. part of the argument that has angered so many people. guest: even president obama did not want to have automatic citizenship for people already in the country illegally, but to allow them to stay through a pathway to citizenship. conservatives decried as amnesty. host: bottom line, the supreme court tomorrow, they will hear the case and decide what? [laughter] guest: something, by the end of june. that this- probably was done in the wrong way, or the states did not have standings. there is a because the tuition of question -- there is a huge constitutional question.

we have busy with their questions are pointing to on monday. host: sam baker of "national journal." and he for being here. we don't have cameras inside the court. but chief justice roberts have allowed the release of audio. once that is released, we will have it on our website and will be airing it on the c-span networks. we are definitely airing it this friday on c-span radio about 4:00 eastern time. and one hour, we will turn our attention to the cover story of time magazine and the nation cost debt. $42,998.12. you own that is what every man, woman, the 2 trillionse u.s. debt. coming up, ron williams, author of a new book called "we the people" will be here to talk 2016 his book and the

campaign. and we travel to tuscaloosa, alabama. among the locations, a famous the north declared one of the winners in the civil war. here is a preview. house is such a fascinating microcosm of what is going on in the deep south. you have the plantar class hurtling forward. jemison cannot fathom a world where he cannot own other people. his wealth is built on this and he is constructing this house at the beginning of the war, he had northern workman who had been foremen over the house.

they end up finishing the house by correspondence and jemison's workman here finished the house. there was -- there would have been thermoplastic work. there are a couple of missing details. all in all, the house was completed by 1862. the civil war was a very difficult time for the jemison family. at tuscaloosa, alabama 2 and c-span 3 american history tv. of fox news and author of "we, the people." being with us. guest: good morning. thank you for having me. talk about the book and campaign but the modern day figures it reshaped and

the founding father's vision of america why did you you learn?d what did guest: the seed is there is so much change so i do journalism you know and it is apartment apparent we are going through tremendous change in american might have talked about other things the rate of change is accelerating in see it outfe and you in the terms of this political ycle of 2016 where people tell you how anxious all this change is making us. political phic and change and economic change. so you get a lot of people who in i feel like a strange are my own country. i don't understand why it is you 7-11 and no one speaks english and we have so many immigrants. don't understand the increase in income inequality. it is hard to make a living. this anxiety in 2016 really has roots so i thaought f

you are looking at the immigration, if you are looking wouldome inequality where you go to understand why the ssues have shaped america so deeply at this moment. i started going back on these people and found the who shaped america in keeping and affirming with the principles of the founding fathers. the people who have shaped steve scully lives in it in 2016. so when you get a roster of characters, billy grahams the the elical leader who set mold for people like jerry dobson.ell and james jim baker. ou think of evangelicals as a key voting black, people who say heir religious values and traditions are essential in determining how they vote. that block is so key right now republican side. host: what is interesting about the book you keep going back to

but ounding fathers referring to what we are dealing with today. here are a couple of excerpts the audience to get a taste. ou write future hitches will look back at present day as coming of age for the new america. we are simply following the instructions left by the founding fathers. guest: right. the thing is i was thinking the other day the founding fathers for a c-span interview you would have such trouble because they would be rock stars. everybody loves the founding fathers. they are a touchstone left and right. the thinking is what is the ssential triumph of the founding fathers is the constitution has endured more than 240 years. anything that we write and reate the latest gadget from not , 240 years from now relevant. the constitution endures.

that is their great triumph. the founding fathers show up and start to look around, that things get strange because even as they are rock tars they would be totally stunned at the reality of constant surveillance by cameras supposedly for red light runners but you mean the government is watching you time?he is that america? that is not the america we created. we are not comfortable with that. gay rights. they would say well, no, there's othing about gays in our constitution. gays were viewed as way outside behavior of acceptable in the late 1700's. or you think about women. no women at the signing of the eclaration of independence or constitutional convention. thebgtdz not own -- they could own property. they are like you have a woman as leading candidate for the emocratic nomination for presidency? what? she say elling me

succeed a black american as president? -- they his would be would be totally unsure what is going on even as they are rock and know their creation has endured. the question becomes for them the america that you guys live in today? we know we created it but seems somebody affirmed our values but have reshaped this america. there?o did the book answers that question. eople ranging from milton friedman to ronald reagan and ed east -- meese but betly friedan who changed the vision marshall nd thurgood the lawyer who was first african-american supreme court who pushed against the idea of legal segregation specifically beginning in public with brown v board of on.ation and i could go

the new york city police commissioner is one of my new of people who reshaped america but if you think about surveillanc surveillance, cameras, computers. statistical models of where and occurs, who perpetrates it and how we can predict and prevent it you say know who put this in play? bill bratton. down to this question. blueprint,stitution a a set of guidelines or harped and fast rules? guest: it is like steel. is hard and fast but it is flexible. when a storm comes there is give.and we were talking a moment ago about women and gays and fathers, human beings they had star status, in their day and time a vision of what was possible and created it. not have imagined where we would go today in so

areas. so the constitution does have ome give and take in it, but remember ronald reagan and ed meese they reacted to to the as reactednstitution living people was too tphreb flexible. scalia wrote on the gay writes they were finding rights people to marry but no one found in this constitution in centuries prior. kn nobody. and he is right. but from the view of people living about a constitution in america in the 21st century they say we believe equal rights that you have to give equal status. he founding fathers understood the need for flexibility. that is why we have amendments to the constitution. that is is why that provision allows for amendments was built in. it is part of their gene kwrugs.

the question -- gene kwrugs. the question is however and where did you bend before you break. that is where reagan and others said let's get back to the at least to king the spirit and intent of what was written and not start having making law from the bench. host: from his award winning prize" and nprhe and new book "we, the people" williams.is juan we will get to the calls in a moment. the shift led by the poor people you focus so much for earl warren, thorough good marshall. and london r king johnson changed history making to he government's role protect equal rights and opportunities for all. guest: i wrote a biography of ustice marshall and one thing that stands out to me is this very simple idea, steve, that 1954 you had the government in the role of

racial segregation in america. those were the laws. don't break the law. then you have a moment in 1954 where the government says, to segregation is nconstitutional, it is not in keeping with equal rights for all and equal protection for all. had beenovernment that reluctant to intervene on this southernecially in the states with the tradition of slavery and fight over the civil suddenly is on the other end and you get actors police departments to the f.b.i., the president and ustice department having to intervene. you think of situations like little rock, arkansas, where the if and even es ontravenes the actions of the governor to say the supreme court has ruled that integration the land and of that is what we are going to enforce.

that is a tremendous shift in role of government in american life and has had tremendous impact ever since. dean of the university of illinois this morning founding our book the fathers of our nation the four you highlight in the book "we, the people." calls.et to the phone michael joins us from good den , gadsden, alabama. caller: i want to tell juan he my favorite on fox news and only one i follow on and seems like fox news a bunch of them contradict they want to play was.role that lou dobbs he is always grappling about -- seems like fox has so far he candidate right i just want to get his opinion on it.

r -- big fan. guest: we appreciate the fact that people tune in. you have people all over the map and i think you have different voices. that is kwhy i'm amazed sometims you e say to me thank god are there. thank god there is somebody else with a different perspective. a credit to it is fox they allow all sorts of ideas to flow. clearly what you have there is ots of very strong personalities and strong points of view almost constant and think passionate debate and you have to take it in that spirit, michael. you will see different people and some of them you like, some of them you don't like, some you with, but hopefully as you are a fan of mine, i appreciate that some you agree and i understand what he is trying to get at even at times me. may not agree with >> cathleen from chicago,

lane.rat caller: good morning. how are you? i have been trying to get to you, mr. williams, ever since on fox. been i admit you are a southern gentleman. cringe for you i especially when those republicans will be flapping off talking about the president, talking about the democratic party and you sit southern gentleman and listen to them. but when they point to you and chime in, before you can open your mouth and get two you. out they beat up on they all start talking trying to wonder,ou out and i just sir, how in good conscience can ou sit there and listen to that? sometimes i think you should be more forceful even if you have my tand up and say it is turn. i was decent when you all spoke. especially that woman i guess with the long dark hair, her and that greg and one next you, i can't think of the names. but they don't even give you a

to speak. i really don't even know your opinions. you are a said, southern gentleman and you do give people a chance to speak, you look hat i see if like you are going it say anything good about this .resident or democrat thank you. host: how does that go again? the call.for guest: i do. i think that is why you watch. you see me say exactly what i think. obviously i think the president has his good and bad. of the of a fan president than any of my colleagues. it is four conservatives and me. don't know that i'm a real hard liberal but i'm left of them.r compared to it is 5:00 and i'm so glad you are watching. thank you. everybody is there. get all kinds of viewpoints an ideas and you are right, i at

come feel like hey, how are you interrupting me? let me get my point in. thanks for watching. host: you play this tomorrow on the program. let's turn to politics and let you about ted cruz winning the 14 delegates from and the story ay on political.com as he sweeps feeding more anger towards the donald trump supporters and donald trump saying the process is rigged. guest: what you have is a nonvoting result in wyoming. we saw that even in colorado, major, big space and trump has a theme and made it a theme, he is not only riticizing ted cruz for these kinds of closed caucus events but he comes out on top is going after the head of the republican national committee in process issaying the rigged. so, trump is using this, i think, to confirm his outsider status. that he is the renegade and having to fight the republican

establishment. plays in that larger theatre. i think you will see him do very well in new york and from new york down the corridor to like.nd and the the question is what happens when he goes out west. triumphs, the wins that have come for ted cruz. hey tend to come in very conservative and western states. that is is where we are heading after this moment. ted cruz any way to get 1,237 the number required to win the nomination. donald trump does. but ted cruz could amass, in of elect delegates, a suffer number when combined with combined with the ones he won yesterday in donald he can block rump from getting to 1,237 and ensure an open convention and in an open convention ted cruz has

advantages when you get beyond the first ballot because he is been working the that people had on first ballot are committed to rump are actually cruz backers and on second ballot are ready to shift to ted cruz. you have got a ire in the house of the republicans. host: that explains there ad on the air in new york showing lady but mp is way congressional district by congressional district process cruz and governor kasich trying to get a landful handful.tes from -- [video clip] > i think he is a smart guy that knows what is going on and i think he's not going to want york.stroy new he will end up being a good mayor, maybe a very good mayor.

want to make new york great. from the williams cruz campaign, your reaction. guest: they are trying to make not a e donald trump is conservative. that he is not even a republican because anybody who could relate in that way you say it is obviously in contravention republican views of the mayor. i think people at this point understand that donald trump adhere to republican or conservative orthodoxy but he is the challenger. guy that will shake them up. he is the guy that will get us of these rms of some principles that people feel like we are not competitive, losing trade deals, he will speak for them. he will speak for people who being ke they are not heard in washington. but in terms of that conserve tough appeal this brings me back earlier point to you. going out west to really more libertarian even states and specifically looking

campbelifornia, ted cruz thinks he has a shot. i think you e but can see by the reception he got in new york or on the east coast a great shot e here. but going west as we approach une and ends of this process ted cruz could amass a suffer number of delegates to -- a delegates number of to block trump from winning and if he does it by a su sufficient margin he's created the open convention where you first ballot he can win. host: there is governor kasich yesterday in new york of aigning after a couple stops in maryland the primaries that follow and pennsylvania. island.icut and rhode [video clip] >> what we are interested here delegates that i won't beat donald it new york. but i think we are going to have momentum coming out of new york and win delegates.

that is what we are doing, delegate hunts. would be t said it difficult to beat him in his own state. consider a good night? i don't know that. guy like political that. don't tell me if we did well. very well we just did with indiana is whether i'm told and by the way i don't know if heard but governor sandoval as now endorsed me popular governor of nevada which is a thrill because he's a terrific an 80% approval rating. not that high but very fine. 'm also pleased with governor pataki and thrilled with who willy todd whitman campaign with me all across the

country. guy and is a wonderful i'm thrilled to have hill. host: governor kasich at a new deli which i guess is mandatory for any candidate democrat or republican. guest: especially after he got pizzeria.business host: two points. state rule to ht get nomination governor kasich has won one so far. seconds, the delegate hundred -- his s in is strategy. state he ing won one is derided by not only donald trump but ted cruz who asks why you here. you have only won one. eight state the rule that says he must win eight to qualify for nomination. that is fun -- that rules committee could change the rules but you have seen relationally in the last week

only have cruz and trump made it clear that they don't they hat rule changed but said they won't change it that who disadvantage people have been in the race and amassed the majority of the elegates and that would be trump and cruz. so i think that works against scaring. when sich's hope is that people look in the convention if convention pen people say who beats hillary clinton that they can look at in the polls and see a clear record of kasich beating clinton saying we want a cruz says he can do it but the position don't look like it. kasich's hope r that he can finds people that ill identify with him as an 10 to trump and cruz and can beat hillary clinton. host: it will be one heck of a convention. guest: it should be a lot of fun. people talk about if it is going

rage and riots. i don't see that. but i think that given what is the republican party where so many grass roots feel the learn has betrayed them and they don't nderstand what is going on in washington and don't like president obama. you could see people at some moment turn off the politics and off to the process and that would be devastating for the republican party as we head november. host: we are getting tweets as well. the is one saying when people vote trump wins and when the g.o.p. appoints delegates cruz wins. kasich never wins except ohio. michelle joins us from wisconsin. democrat line. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. the gentleman for his information. fox tphaonews. thatd out that juan is one

tries to be fair and balanced reallyhe other ones just don't seem to get it although they say they are fair and balanced. no longer watch. get my news specifically through c-span. anyway, i was wondering how come establishment has church ard time keeping and state separate. classes we are taught this theme and that is part of political process of the civics classes, and yet they time keeping those two things separate. ost: michelle, thank you for the call. guest: this is right -- thomas is very clear in his writings and the spirit in which talked about the constitution you want a clear differed divide church and --

church and state. that was not in the money until the 1950's. the post-cold war period there was an effort to plug into us as of god given rights for uman beings and democracy around the world and more but the is 150 years after declaration and constitution. so it is a big change. the key here in terms of what talking about is that the evangelical vote, the the values ers, voters today are so essential to the republicans. and it is sunday morning and church at least once a month, 80% are either oderate or conservative and therefore more likely to be reliable republican voters. so, this has brought religion

into the public discussion. so, issues like abortion and gay ights suddenly become values issues and as we have seen in this primary caucus process on ted cruz ican side came into this targeting evangelical voters saying he candidate.eir ben carson targeting evangelical voters. donald trump saying sometimes people say this is the first heard words about the bible and relying coming this onald trump is in cycle but done to appeal to evangelical voters. no question people who put their values an tradition and at the fore hodoxy fronts of what they want to see from their politicians is part of the process. jim has it tweet. juan seems to think hillary linton will be the democratic candidate. guest: that is true. flint, go to alex in michigan. how is your community doing

today, legislation? in there. are hanging thanks for asking. to say i congratulate you for being on fox news and all how but i don't understand you and bob beckel can sit there with that nd put up crap that they throw at you. you have to that have a living but i don't understand how you can do it, bro'. as a black man raised in the 1960's. congratulations. go for it. it is i think that important that people even in the same point of point of ifferent views and say i haven't thought of that. he idea is that it sparks more conversation. it cllenges people who may be ith others of like mind but here companies a different point of view and you have to -- here

comes a different point of view respond.have to you say i don't know how you can sit there and take it. i wouldn't want that taking place o be without me there. i run into so many people who fox news and watch and i'm part of the reason. adds to the mix. that is the spirit in which i do the job. williams a graduate emmyverford college won an for politics the new black power and his new book "we, the we will go to harold from new jersey. good morning, republican line. good morning. congratulations, juan. guest: thank you. caller: we should all have a search for the truth. heroes one george washington and abraham lincoln. they would never dream that we corruption, corruption to the extent that we $19 trillion of debt as a result of corruption.

corruption in the congress. corruption in the supreme court. corruption at the white house. donald trump and he tells the truth and immediately berserk because we haven't had truth in a long, long time. and what is the truth? we are h is that supposed to be all the people, together.ople and what does that mean? not only that, but george washington, when he was the hero the people wanted him to be emperor. he said no. today we have a man in the white emperor calls himself in jest but he thinks he can constitution, throw rule e ethics away and

with you -- what would call it? his personal opinion of what the constitution is. nd he is a man who supposedly taught it in chicago. host: harold, thanks for the call. you, harold. what you have is i think if the back, he fathers came talks about the debt in this country, tremendous debt. and i think you are absolutely right. one of the things that george washington said in his farewell we should avoid ntanglements in tpoefrpb affairs and -- foreign affairs but take care of america first imagined we would amass so much debt. e live in a completely different economic structure. back then a plurality of american people were farmers and having a central bank was controversial and a alexander ebate and hamilton prevailed and that is why we have the central bank and federal reserve. the power exercised by the fed

and power on wall street i think you are right. too would be like, there is much debt and power invested in government because they were so careful about any kind of obligation., -- i am talking about how the federal government interact with the state and what rules are set. we have seen tremendous change as the nation has evolved. one of the things i mention in the book is that the rate of change seems to be speeding up. they say that in this century, we are going to see change not at a rate of 100 years, but something like 20,000 years of change because things are just coming so fast, and it is discomforting a lot of people. i think the founding fathers are a touchstone for people to say, slow down on the rate of change. people may be comfortable with

that and it has not clashed our economy at this point, but there are people saying that it looms out there. it is not the threat to future generations but to the integrity giveneedom that we were by the founding fathers with this government that has endured all these years. shepherd has this online. amount of paidhe advertisement in new york state by donald trump, $67,000. compare that to the super pac for ted cruz which is about $400,000 and john kasich's super pac in new york, close to $600,000. with regard to democrats, a new showing that in downstate new york, new york city and other cities, hillary clinton is 60% and bernie sanders at 36%. think this is not consistent.

sometimes, the polls will change, we know that, but this an average that is very much to the advantage of secretary clinton. on the earlier point about spending, it is incredible the great differentials between the super pac's and even the campaign spending being done by trumpnd kasich versus because it is the reverse of the poll spectrum has the big lead. the argument could be that from is so effective -- could be that trump is so effective in his use of media and people like cruz and kasich cannot just call and get on the electronic does. he is a free media magnet. donaldack to your calls, in san antonio, texas. you are talking to juan williams . good morning. caller: mr. williams, i called

to apologize to you because i am watching fox news and i sat in front of my tv and wondered, how can this man [indiscernible] and i have not heard you articulate. the way you are speaking this ashamed andeel myself criticizing you. i can see how intelligent you really are. i just wanted to let you know. [laughter] i apologize to you. guest: yes, they had a different political point of view, and yes, i get interrupted with four against one, but again, overwhelmingly, this is not wednesday, but people say to me, thank goodness you are there to bring up a different point of view and make people engage to see things a little differently. i really appreciate the fact

that they do not completely run over me because they could. and the fact that i am there says a lot about the values of fox news. "the back to the book -- 21st over the politicalization of the court has arguments the original founding fathers, alexander hamilton, described the federal judiciary as lacking that "sword" or the power of the army." can you elaborate? is no enforcement mechanism backing up in a supreme court decision overruled, so for example, when the supreme court rules and 54. -- in 1954 paschal celebration was unconstitutional and illegal, they had no way to send officers down south to say, this is the law of right now, so what they did see is that, let's slow down for a second, we are getting a lot of persistence. that's do this with deliberate speed and allow the process to

really take place over several years and decades. we know this has been difficult for america. looking around the country today, segregation is spotting up in american schools. you have high rates of continued segregation. in the 1950's and 1960's, it was almost as if no decision had been made, but to come to your point, it is not only that they have no army to enforce a decision, the supreme court we are speaking about, they also in that same phrase have no purse. they do not have the purse or the money of the congress. they cannot supply dollars in order to enforce their decision. that the american people trust and have great faith in the wisdom of the justices who sit on the supreme court. they testified before the respective house and budget committees asking for money every year for their own personal budget. guest: but the idea is that we

into the supreme court agreed deal of faith and trust in their judgment. host: dorothy is next in baltimore, democrat line. good morning. good morning. i really appreciate you. i really do on fox news. question, there are few other african-american contributors on fox news, so why is it that -- and you do not do this and what i like you so much -- why do they have to talk negative? they come on to talk negative about african-americans. know we are not all on welfare. i have a lot of friends who are middle-class women. none of my friends or children are, and they are not out there, the officer, i cannot

think of his name, they have to come more and they have to say, we all are this, and he is not either, so why would he generalize? that is what i like you. you are fair balanced and keep up the good work. guest: you are very kind. i do not share your view. i do think there are people who come out and have highly critical things to say, ,specially about black people and you see that, but i think there are people who say, hey, there is a different point of the deal i think what you just it isbecause i think really important that we not engage in that kind of stereotyping or demeaning of people in a generalized fashion, i do not think it is fair and i think i will keep that in mind. i will make a point of delivering that message. host: one of the founding fathers, if you are to ask one question, who would it be and what would the question be? guest: at this point, it would

be, could you have imagined the rate of change, and do you think we have lived up to the ideals? of course, the founding father i am most interested in is george washington. george washington is the one who had difficulty. i think this political cycle is so rich on this question. washington was very leery of political parties. he thought it would divide the idea of a unified american people. you have seen this come right out of jefferson and adams and they go into it, so today, you ise donald trump, and from -- and he is almost his own political party. he comes in, and you see this, you see people writing about the potential threat of people who come in with representing the will of the

people, but all of a sudden, these demagogues and the writings of some of the founding fathers are per trade as people who have the potential to be targets, so what would some of my george washington think of donald trump, but how would they view the changes that have taken place overall these years, and do they -- i think not only are they rock stars as they come back to life in the 21st century, but i think they are viewed as people who created something that has endured and their masterminds, but even a mastermind, a person who created the first car, airplane, would be asked at this juncture, are you surprised at what has come of your creation? that we have supersonic jets, or are you surprised that the potential that your device or invention could be used? could you have conceived of it? i think george washington would be worried about the extension

to a have partisanship and looking at congress on so many issues that have come from the intent parties of today. host: we will go to connecticut, andy, good morning. independent line. caller: i have two questions, do you think donald trump is a racist because of his position on illegal immigration? and the second on identity politics. becomeocrat party has the illegal immigration, black lives matter and women rights party. i get the feeling they do not like men, is voting for iparty racist? guest: i would not make a judgment on donald trump as i do not know him personally, but when he says things like the mexicans are racist, of criminal class, obviously, that appeals to people who have racist sentiments and feelings. i do not think there is getting

away with it, and you see the kkk heading out same, we really like donald trump. that will knock people back. people be uncomfortable. racial alarms will be sounding. what was the second question? host: you know, i was looking at the next phone call. guest: i think it was about self-interest. you said that the democratic party does not like white man, well, i think at this point, if you look at the numbers, there are a substantial number of white men who do not see their interest reflected in the democratic party as you have portrayed, but i don't think that is necessarily the case. you have someone like bill clinton standing there as a ways ofthe icon in many the democratic party today. the question is, you are talking about self-interested identity politics because you are right. if you look at black lives matter, i find it interesting.

they were not protesting at donald trump rallies, they were going after bernie sanders -- remember that when they went on stage and took the micromet -- to the microphone away from martin o'malley and the confronted hillary clinton? that is where they think they can make an impact. they do not think they can make an impact in the republican ranks. and you say, i guess identity politics is a problem of the democrats, but if you look at the republican party, it is almost an all-white party, especially white man, so it is not as if there is no identity politics taking place on the right. terms oft that in minorities, women, and i don't know that you can call women and minority, but that is where they -- where they have found more of a home. i would be careful to say it is just democrats playing identity politics. host: do you think to andy's point that it shows how polarizing the political parties have become? guest: yes, that is what i said

earlier when we were saying, if you asked me if there was one founding father and there was one question, i think it comes to extreme political polarization at this time and when you have both sides saying they like to trust government but they lack trust in the political leaders, wall street, insurance companies and the likes, even religious figures, i think that they would be very much uncomfortable with the idea that the people are losing faith in such major institutions of we thee idea people, not the book but the constitution, the idea is that we the people govern, that is the heart and soul of democratic inclination, that you want people to feel as if their institutions are representative. issue you talk about,

second amendment rights, but let's get to pennsylvania, republican line. caller: good morning. i wanted to ask his position on abortion. i have not heard them say anything about it. people often talk about issues whitewanted to say that folks were not considered human beans, and i think the issue of the unborn is not talked about enough, especially in this election because hillary says they have no rights at all, but we have a charity called saved $3000 lives, and we offer to people thinking about abortion because they cannot afford babies and we have saved 80 babies so far. on c-span, if you consider interviewing us, we have more information. host: what is the website? saveunbornlife.org.

not you see a human baby, whole or bears are anything like that, it is a human life with a beating heart and it can live outside of the womb at 20 weeks. why in this civil society to be still allow people to make the choice to kill that unborn baby? we have rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. life is first for all of us. host: laura, thank you for the call. guest: i am a grand debt i don't know how to argue, but i am pro-choice. i am of the idea that a woman should have the right to make that choice and donald trump got into the trouble the other day when people who are in support of pro-life positions, when he said women should be punished,

he had to walk that that, so you understand the lives that exist over this issue, so when people talk about this, i often am judging them by the degree of their commitment to help children, so what you say to me is moving because you are willing to put dollars and efforts into helping people and helping women as they make that choice and to the good health and success of that child once he or she is born. host: let's turn back to the new york primary and one of the latest ads of bernie sanders's campaign on air across the state. >> washington contributions speaking fees and they get their rigged economy, tax breaks and bailouts all held in place by a corrupt finance system, and let washington politicians are paid over $200,000 an hour for speeches, they oppose raising the living wage to $15 an hour.

200 thousand dollars an hour for them but not even $15 an hour for them. and that is enough. >> i am a bernie sanders and i approve this message. host: we will have live coverage tuesday from new york beginning at 9:00 eastern time and here's the latest from the hillary clinton campaign. [video clip] have a bigay, we decision to make and the new york daily news and new york times made theirs, both endorsed to the clinton for president. clinton is supremely knowledgeable and result-driven. she promises to be a democratic champion, advancing the democratic agenda in the white house. and where middle-class americans have a real shot at prosperity. new york's choice for president, hillary clinton. >> i am hillary clinton and i approve this message. host: is new york attorney point for democrats? guest: i think it is a key

bernie sanders won the last votes and he is nowhere near in terms of delegate count to hillary clinton, so what he has to do is shift the way that we are talking and thinking about the democratic race because if you are talking to people like me, to political advisers, it looks to me like hillary clinton has this propped up, but if bernie sanders is hillary clinton's home state to his side, which would rock the democratic establishment, it might change the reality because then people would say, maybe folks in pennsylvania, maryland, the states that are coming up shortly, maybe they say, wait a second, bernie sanders is not only exceeding expectations for blowing up the process. california and if

bernie sanders was on the run at that point, could dh treasure the treasure trove of delegates and with the superdelegates be moved? right now, it begins with the votes in new york on tuesday. does he have the ability, not only to exceed, but if he gets 30% of the vote, he would have proceeded to exceed expectations, but if he was to win, i think it would shake the democratic side. raised $15e clooney million this week in san francisco for hillary clinton. in new mexico, independent line juan williams. caller: if you really know history, i am sure you chose the before -- he flooded the streets of los angeles with drugs, he busted the union, everybody said that this man is

so good like washington, but when you look at his record, he said deficits do not matter, he sent our country on the trajectory where we are today, and i did not know why everybody holds this man up as the pivotal of the greatest president who could possibly walk on water. this does not make sense to me. guest: let me say that this book is not about saying this person is great or this person is terrible. the idea of the book is looking at the political processes that we have today, looking at the reality of life we had been thoroughly 20 and early 21st century and who shaped the way that we live. the reason that ronald reagan is in this book is about the tremendous impact he has had on federal court. again, what he did with the help of the future attorney general, it was to make the argument that the constitution should be read in the original intent and it

should have the original interpretation of the words in the constitution versus people who wanted to invest with new rights and what they called the living constitution, so that is the emphasis. i think you are wrong to be think that reagan was not a great president. onnow people have arguments ronald reagan. i covered the white house for the washington post way back when, but i must tell you that even president obama has said that president reagan was a game changer in terms of reorienting government, the weight american people think about government, the way we interact on such issues in the education you talked about immigration reform, and other crucial moment done by ronald reagan, so in many ways, i think he was a game changer. if you look at the people, it is looking at people like reagan in terms of his actions on the consequential,

but it also brings in people like, why are you writing about this person? carson, the person said in motion the environmental movement in this country, the one where people today have arguments over epa regulation and the impact on business and the like, you go back and the idea is, here are the people, we, the people who have made a difference and have shaped america today and the principles set by the founding fathers. hay,er character, harry and he put in place the idea of organized gay rights and organized political power that can come with people and say that gay people are entitled to equal rights in society. views, have your positive or negative, but the idea behind my book, and i think steve explain this in the beginning, i am not here on a partisan mission.

i'm a curious mind saying, how did we get here? been in thehave clay and shaping america at this point? host: to give the basis on how you frame the debate, there is one issue about second amendment and you wrote a short excerpt of but lengthy chapter -- "no matter what side of the debate one is on, the reality of gun violence is frightening to us all. deaths areof gun suicides, but there is also a lively gun culture across america." guest: you see it every day. we had an incident in the washington area where a firefighter was trying to help someone on the welfare call, in tot, a neighbor had called say, help someone may be having a medical emergency, but firefighters were coming in, and then gunfire through the door and it killed one of the firefighters, so it is just the

constant scene of our day and -- how exactlyw did we get to this point in this argument? the supreme court recently affirming the rights, and this is the high point in terms of decisions that will injure justice scalia, individual americans have their rights to own guns, so in this book, it is talking about the evolution and growth of the nra and how it has become such a politicized issue and how in fact the power, the political power of the nra has helped to influence the direction of the republican party and the way you think about guns in the society. host: ralph, virginia, democrat line. good morning. caller: thank you very much for

being on c-span. i went to thank c-span, steve, mr. williams for coming on. i had some comments to make that mr. cruz has stated he will do away with the employment taxes .nd the corporations that would not prevent people from going ahead and incorporating to get around the law. furthermore, he stated that he will abolish the irs and he is going to make a postcard available to individuals to do income tax returns, very impossible. i think mr. trump is a true republican elite should embrace him and go forward because he is the most popular of the candidates in the republican party, and i think if you would raise the issue, term limits on the house and senate would put him into power, and i

hope he does well in the nomination and he gets the nomination, as well as president, and i hope after he gets the presidency, he will form a third party because he had democrats and republicans, those who cannot get along with each other after, and that is why he is so popular right now. that is all i have to say. thanks again for being on c-span. lindsey graham, mitch mcconnell and ted cruz will be voted out of there if mr. trump comes into office. thank you for c-span and taking my calls. host: ralph, thank you. the idea of term limits comes up. guest: i was taken by two things that roth said. populace or popular, i think both apply to donald trump and he said, maybe he would form a third party, so we have heard this not from several people and be his ownp might

phenomenon, but we think back historically, it you could think of just in recent times, john idea of, you know, the outsideulace who comes the political norms of the two-party system and that is a pretty amazing thing. i think donald trump has taken this to a new level. i am not sure how it works. i'm not sure if he is denied the nomination at the convention and then launches a third party, i am not sure what it would do other than simply defeat the republicans in the general election because it would be taken from their vote. i don't think of of the boats coming from the democratic side. host: and he would not be on a number of state ballots because the deadline is in may and the convention is in july. guest: rights, save he would be a power player and he has that leverage. his name is already on the

ballot and he has that leverage going in to the election. host: let's go to our last call from delaware, good morning. caller: how are you doing? it is smyrna, delaware. host: close. is,er: my question for you when president obama nominated garland, he used the word empathy. he wanted somebody with empathy on the court, and that jumped out at me, and that is not or the the law constitution the way it is written and he wants empathy up there. bad scares me. that sounds like he is trying to do the opposite of scalia. if there is not a fair and balance, you have to appreciate that. guest: [laughter] good point. i think when he is talking,

first of all, when you look at mayor garland, he is the chief of the d.c. circuit, so i don't think anyone is questioning his credentials, and he is widely respected on both sides of the aisle so this comes down to a question and this is what i say in the book and this chapter about ronald reagan. there is a contest of wills, it you will, about how you read the constitution, do you strive to a tear to the original structure or do you think this is a living document and one someone with is being locked out of the political environment and you want a gym or five that question how would the founding fathers react? i'm not sure there are be , and you could be anybody. it is up to the president for the senate to confirm, so that

is the way they've got about it. i think they wanted people from all walks of life, i think we are dominated currently by tko and harvard law graduates to an extent that that may trouble the founding fathers far more and then they talk about people who are empathetic and you would be surprised that there are women and it is shocked that they would be that on the supreme court. host: one of the questions you begin with your book, what with our founding fathers think of america today? what they say, this is what we expected or this is far different? guest: i think both are true. you have to think about you or me going 240 years into the future. you could try, is this going to " orike "the jetsons something and people of be floating by the studio on some type of transportation? i don't know. there would be some level of shock, -- host: but the framework. guest: the parameters of

framework, that structure, he would be so thrilled. they would say, you guys have been to civil war and you have not onlyo maintain, our principles, but the word of the constitution of the united states? we are so thrilled that you guys are true to the idea of democracy, the constitution and the idea we the people. host: of course, slavery one of the glaring mistakes in an otherwise near-perfect document. guest: the biggest change i would argue, not only slavery, but the status of women. inwomen fighting, no women the declaration of independence, and today, we have three women on the supreme court and saying the potential of a woman as president, attorney general, you know, to this -- to them, this

would be wow. we did not see this. explain how this came about. introduce as delano roosevelt and that is what the book tries to do. host: the book is titled "we the people: the modern-day figures who have reshaped and affirmed the founding fathers' vision of america." our guest is the last hour, juan williams. we will see when the fox news channel. thank you. guest: as always, thank you. we are a big fan of c-span. host: we appreciate it. magazine, the $42,000f money you oh, -- nearly $43,000. what do you think of this? code, 748-8000 for democrats. (202)-748-8001, republicans. outside of the united states, (202)-748-8003. you are watching and listening to "washington journal" on this

morning, april 17. back in a moment. ♪ e,n he had a couple of meals and a steam shovel. the ironies one of to be rapidly antigovernment and know your entire fortune to the government. >> tonight on "q and date," sally denton -- "q and a," sally 10 takes a look at one of the largest engineering and construction companies in the world. >> who else does the united states government get to build these projects throughout the world? . think, you know, it is time

it is the american taxpayers paying for it. it was seen that the american taxpayers should have some thess to information about contracts, the amount of money, the workers safety, the political relationship. >> tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span's "q and a." >> our live coverage of the presidential race continues tuesday night for the new york state primary. join us at 9:00 eastern for results, speeches and action. taking you on the road to the white house on c-span, c-span radio and www.c-span.org. >> "washington journal" continues. host: we have about half an hour away went to focus on the debt and deficit. weyou go to debtclock.org, are approaching nearly $20 trillion.

"time" magazine things it down to war $2 trillion because we are paying part of it back, but it begins with these words -- america, we have a problem. we are more than we can easily prepay. we spend and borrow too much. promise to much. we conjure dollar bills by the trillions, pull them right out of thin air. we will open up phone lines and asking what you think about this. the amount of money you will go, nearly 43 thousand dollars. charles joins us from florida, republican mine. good morning. caller: thank you for taking my call. 19 trillionas dollars going into 21 chilean dollar deficit, and i am surprised they did not say it is 20 to 21 billion -- 21 trillion dollar deficit, so i don't

understand why they say that when it is not -- when it is more than that. if i might add, the next president i hope will be donald trump because he knows how to handle money and i listened to all of them and he would be the best person to be the president of the united states of all of them. thank you for taking my call. have a blessed day. host: charles, "time" addresses that, it is almost $19 trillion, but they put it this way -- "the treasury debts by paying an .verage of 1.8% on the debt we find in this way we go $13.9 trillion, that is the $19 trillion figure ticking upward, and it adds to the debt the government owes itself." that is why they're talking about the nearly $14 trillion u.s. debt. that is the cover of "time" magazine and project joins us from florida, independent line. caller: morning.

thank you for taking my call. the previous caller saying donald trump can handle money is laughable. he is not put up his own tax return and even fox is not holding the seat to the fire on that. that talkss written about how serious the fiscal situation is, but we need ted inz to deal with this generating economic growth, and ted cruz is the only one. why hasn't donald trump put his tax returns? none of the media is holding donald trump accountable, and how do we know what donald trump's true financial condition is when he is not even putting it out and being transparent on his own financial condition? thank you very much. host: roger, thank you for the call. this tweet from matthew, nine $2

trillion is a lot to trash and recycle, yes, that is economics 101. send us the tweet @cspanwj. can the nation for this much debt? how we get explains there and what to do about it. donna is not from columbus, ohio. good morning. independent line. caller: yes, i just think the religious people that are antiabortion don't consider the you will havethat a lot more children in poverty and the united states cannot take supporting everybody. i do not understand how people really believe that the bulk of the citizens can have even a

the economy with the way it is, global, all the technology. thank you. host: thank you. from "time" agassi, this much i learned about that after 40 years of writing. it is better not to incur it. once it is incurred, it is better to pay it off. henry writes, if i write a check, will you stop pushing my descendents for the end of the plank? good morning in virginia. caller: thank you. i wanted to make comments about the federal reserve and founding fathers. actually envision this, jeff sent than most, about what and of dangers of having federal bank and having your debt available to the people of the country. they were concerned about the drop and the value of the

currency and it is unfortunate that it has taken this long and basically none of the candidates running, maybe with the exception of rand paul previously, would have addressed this issue, so this is something people should read on. host: david, she we go back to the gold standard which came to an end back in 1971 by president richard nixon? mover: i think the gradual back to that system, actually, it ended in 1933 and it ended when visible more or less ordered competition of gold and that was the real break, but i think the gradual move could be done and it cannot be done overnight because it would shock the economy, but i think it should be done because it is really the only way to restore fiscal and monetary policy to our country. one: david from virginia, you were saying that u.s. dollars are not worth the paper

on which they are printed. a monopoly money machine, the andof interest rates influences others, it pulls lovers to make the stock market go up from "time" magazine. good morning on the democrat line. is not a hardhis problem to solve. president obama is on the verge of doing so if the republicans would just get out of the way. what we need is more people in the country, so there are more of the goat immigrants that we allow into the country and that dollar figure will go down and we can give them benefits, health care, and all that will make this problem go away. thank you for taking my call. host: t walker must virginia. next is from california, will, good morning. caller: good morning and thank you for c-span.

i heard that wall street paid 34% tax and that is the way it should be. buffett,ar warren forbes, mitt romney saying that they paid 14.5 to 17%, but my calculation is there are 20% summer in there that are not paying. 20%, butt pay that here is the thing, america does not realize 20% of what? i cannot figure out, how bought -- how about make this total calculations and what they're supposed to be paying? take a look at wall street. wall street mix between $100 billion and $226 billion a day. if we just add up how many days, 250 two days that they possibly words and then taxed them on that, just checked the tax on

what boston is not paying, if we just collect the tax, it would shock. it is scary. in five years, we could have the deficit paid off, we could talk old people [indiscernible] collect ourto do is money from wall street. they stole it, let's take it back. host: thank you for the call. james says -- it is closer to about $100 trillion if you add up the promises. when the hammer comes down, it is going to come down hard. tweet us at @cspanwj. this is also from that piece, tax filing delayed the couple of days. "americans spend 6.1 billion each and $233.8 billion tax season complying with a 10

million word federal tax code. i we quite sure we want no part of the flat tax idea? no deductions, note h&r block. in practical?" host: let's go to sisi next in baltimore. caller: thank you for c-span. if i could have a few minutes, maybe two. i have been wondering for years what exactly is the military budget? we don't even know what that budget is. andtalking about corruption wasteful spending. a lot of it has got to be -- we are funding not only our armies but everybody else's armies around the world. toebody is always trying make a new discussion. this military budget is ridiculous. we don't even know how much money and they won't tell us

what the budget is. i think we should have a lot more money and we are trying to work for peace and not always trying to find out about who we can support with these weapons? thank you very much. you do a wonderful job. host: we appreciate you adding your voice to the conversation. this is a look at "time and quote magazine. -- this is a look at "time" magazine. 42,990 $8.12, that is how much we go in debt. write on international business that time magazine is wrong, you should not ever worry about your share of the u.s. national debt terry kuan than 80% of americans meeting household income, but they say does that number mean anything? it seems unbelievably silly, says the codirector for the center of economic and policy research and washington, d.c.

this has nothing to do it teacher living standards, the ability of the government to pay back debt, it is basically zero information. bttimes.com.is i we go to george, good morning. caller: i called because i wanted to respond to the person who said that cruz would take care of the debt. i think that may be true. the debt is in part a big problem, but i think it would be elect someone [indiscernible] to the president. caller: next in san diego. independent line. good morning. i learned in economics class that money was just a means of an exchange to make parter easier and the money does not really matter.

i never hear anything -- countries real wealth is financial resources and what they can produce, but i never hear anybody talking about it for anybody say this was right or it may be have someone explain that on the show? i don't know white national debt lasty --eally -- wh why national debt matters really? host: so you are not worried about it? understand.n't money makes barter easier, so i don't understand why the dead is is important.ebt i just don't understand. i never heard anyone refute it. of all the economist's on television, the things i have read, i've never heard anyone refute this. money does not relate matter and it is just a form of exchange. host: what james grant points

and in the.com magazine, imagine if you have that personal debt. if you were spending $10,000 a year more than you were taking in, so it is a personal reference to individuals in our federal government. we want to hear from you on this point. let's go to richard in connecticut. good morning. caller: good morning. yes, i was listening a little while ago, and the fellow who said that we need to allow more illegals in, connecticut has a deficit right now of about $1 billion and my lawyer is going crazy with custody and everything, but they never talk about the fact that 15% of the annual connecticut budget goes to illegals. overall in this country, we spend over $100 billion taking care of illegals, so i believe

it was just announced not too long ago that the illegals sent back $54 billion to mexico. how much money is being spent in america? i don't think much. also, you cannot have a balanced budget amendment because that would you nothing for the debt. but we need is a surplus of about $500 billion a year to compensate for the debt. i look at it this way. medicaid, fraud, corruption, all the workers pay into it, look at the corruption involved. social security disability, look at the corruption involved. everybody, every government program is so bad and nobody is talking. not even trump. they're not talking about the fraud in government. i think this is what we need to do. of theichard, thanks

call. another viewer same, money comes in, when he goes out. it is not possible to run this system on cash or hard money. magazine talking about filing for taxes and a recommendation -- "let each wage earning citizen cold the whole of his or her untaxed earnings, actually touch them, then, let the government pockets taxes in six months. we would either have a tax revolution or startling contraction of the budget." john is next from massachusetts. good morning. caller: good morning. how are you doing today? great guest this morning. host: thank you. caller: yes, just talking a little bit about the debt. some people touched on it earlier about the federal reserve and the people trusting dollars as a real reserve

currency, and the debt had big big news iny -- yesterday where saudi arabia was turning out to pay treasury released the 28 report, andhe 9/11 it is a situation we put ourselves in and it is kind of trilliont we have 3.5 in treasury bonds from the another trillion from the japanese and another 75 trillion from saudi arabia to warsce a couple of illegal so -- it is just crazy. host: thanks for the call. we have a few more minutes. a tweet saying, if you want to know we are tax money funds,atch what congress

illegals, century cities, etc. is next from virginia. democrat line. good morning. caller: good morning. i feel like if they were just quit giving money away to foreign countries, we talk about billions and billions of dollars and we could pay off the national debt. but really bothers me the most is that every time there is a short fall or something like that, they talk about we need to do something with social security. well, we already pay their fair share. i would like to say, they collect entitlements or whatever . we paid our tax money. we are given billions and billions away every it to these other countries and you're talking about this flat tax. i have been in favor of it.

everybody pays 10%, even the companies. host: thank you for the call. in louisiana, mary is on the phone. good morning. millennium and i wondered how come we have to pay back all the taxes and everything? debbiek, we will go to in michigan, independent line. good morning. caller: i am wondering what the impact would be if the u.s. decided to declare bankruptcy like a couple other countries have had. who would be heard? who holds that debt? host: how worried are you when you look at that figure, whether it is $13.9 trillion or close to $20 trillion? caller: i am not worried at all. host: why? caller: i am not going to pay it. [laughter] i pay my taxes every year and people in washington decided to run it up. host: thank you for the calls.

let me go back to the beginning part of the story where time ays "america, we have problem. we go more than we can easily prepay. we spend and borrow too much and we promise to much. because it dollar bills by the trillions and pull them right out of thin air." you will have live coverage at 4:00 eastern time for senator bernie sanders. we caught up with ohio governor and tomorrow, we will be live with donald trump in buffalo new york at 7:00 eastern time. tuesday night at 9:00 eastern, 6:00 on the west coast, live coverage of the election result from new york as part of our tuesday coverage that will also include the results. some other key

primaries, including pennsylvania, rhode island, maryland, and it all caps up in early june with the primary convention today in california. dylan from south dakota, good morning. caller: good morning. veteran fromed vietnam, and i do not think it is right the way we are giving money away. host: to whom? caller: all these different countries, all these terrorist countries like saudi arabia, how about that one? .nd iran, same thing when it comes time for our raises, we don't get any raises. host: thanks for the call. dean is next from kentucky. good morning. caller: i am calling about the and ourour country,

grandkids are going to pay it because [indiscernible] 20 trillion, it will be a burden. i do think we need to pay our fair share [indiscernible] host: thank you. tom burke says cheney and reagan says the deficit does not matter, quiet now? the republican concern, make the debt not matter. that is what the viewer says. good morning on the republican line. caller: good morning. it seems incredible to me that we are facing this enormous that, but we are taking in all kinds of people from other countries and even with the illegals that are here, it just -- two and two is five instead of four, we really need to do something about stopping immigration until we are able to

get our own house in order. and then if we want to be kind to other people around the world, of course, but this right now, it is not only [indiscernible] but dangerous. host: thank you from florida. in michigan, lily our next caller. caller: glad you took my call. ont like you had a program taxes the other day, people get mad and they don't like taxes in the first place. they don't understand tax like they don't understand the debt issue. what i was saying that the government is i don't understand why china does not bother from their own people and pay us back? the money would continue circulating in our own country. why are we going to pay china all this money and they always

always gave people some people some tax-free accounts or something and pay them some interest on it and the money would have stayed in their own country. host: we have time for a quick comment from kimberly. good morning. caller: good morning. how are you? host: good, thank you. we have about a minute left. about the idea is debt, the congress should take a pay freeze. get a raise, they don't get a raise. century cities harboring illegals would be find tremendously as well as the illegals themselves. they send their money back, anyhow. host: kimberly, thank you for the call. the cover story is on "time" magazine and the nations nearly nation's debt.he

we talked about an important supreme court case dealing with immigration and we will be devoting three hours to the program. meisner, former commissioner for u.s. immigration service, that is our 7:00 tomorrow morning at a.m. eastern time, 4:00 on the west coast. "newsmakers" is next. hope you enjoy the rest of your weekend. have a great week ahead. ♪ [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] >> next, newsmakers with ohio congressman jim jordan. then, it's in a hearing on u.s. preparedness to defend against biological threats.

live at 4:00 p.m., democratic presidential candidate bernie sanders of vermont holds a campaign rally in brooklyn, new york. ms. swain: welcome to c-span's "newsmakers." the house of representatives is once again in budget battles and our guest this week is in the middle of that. congressman jim jordan, republican of ohio representing the fourth district in that state and he is the chairman of freedom caucus fiscal conservatives in the house of representatives. thanks for being with us. rep. jordan: good to be with you all. ms. swain: questioning him this week is erica werner of the associated press, the chief congressional reporter, and susan ferrechio comes back to our set, chief correspondent for the washington examiner. thanks for being here, both of you. >> great to be here. wonderful. mr. jordan, thank you. friday as you know is the budget deadline will be blowing through it. you will be missing the deadline for the first time in six years largely because of opposition from the freedom caucus. how do you justify and explain that, and does it matter?