all sorts of things had been stolen from them. but what i am trend to say is that there are many works on the market today that theoretically have a clean bill of health because -- there is a case right now in california where a rush collectorussian legally bought a piece from the dutch government. the problem is they did not return that piece to the rightful owner. so there are layers upon layers of what the claimant families have to deal with in order to took that an actual theft place. a collector in the states today can argue fairly reasonably that it was bought legitimately from fromody who bought it an official government body. so try to give a bigger picture in a sense of what we are up against. senator franken: thank you. senator cruz: thank you, senator franken.

i want to thank each of the witnesses for coming today. i also want to thank you for your testimony and your time and commitment, each of you, fighting for this issue and fighting to see justice served. i am proud. i want to thank senator cornyn, senator blumenthal and senator schumer for joining with me and introducing this legislation. i am particularly grateful for chairman grassley's offer to expedite this legislation through the full judiciary committee. there are many times when washington doesn't work or face't work well and we gridlock. i'm hopeful that this will be an issue in which we see some real bipartisan cooperation and we see both the senate and house of representatives act and act expeditiously. seven decades is far too long to wait for justice. grassley's full written statement will be admitted to the record without objection. and we will keep the hearing record open for an additional five business days. that means that the record will

be closed at the end of business day june 14, 2016. i would invite any of the witnesses to supply any additional materials for the record. and with that, the hearing is adjourned.

[captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2015] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

>> this is an amazing , terrible cruelties are perpetrated, the empire is increased, great love affairs. but it is also a family where fathers kill their sons, where wives have their family -- their husbands overthrown and the sons collude in murder of their fathers. this is a family unlike any other. announcer: tonight, simon c bag montefiore discovers -- "thesses his book romanovs, 1613-1918." childrene girls, the were wearing their own bazaar bullet-proof vest's. bulletproof vests, but vests couldith diamonds so they have money in case they escaped are needed to buy their way out.

sewing in months these diamonds. so when the bullets came, tragically, these made their execution and their agony much longer because the alerts bounced off diamonds, the hardest substance known to man. and they didn't die. announcer: tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span's "q and a." we are going public. we will be watched by our friends and by people across the country. and i would hope, as i said that the senate may change, not as an institution, a more efficient body because of televised proceedings. >> the proceedings of the united states senate are being broadcast of the nation on television for the first time. not that we have operated in .ecret until now

millions of americans have sat in the galleries and observed senate debates during their visits to washington. today, they can witness the proceedings in their own homes. >> and in effect, the senate floor has been a kind of stage. the senators have been acting on that stage. the audience is in the galleries . and by our action today, we haven't really fundamentally altered that situation. we have simply and large the galleries. we have pushed out the laws to include all of the american people who wish to watch. announcer: commemorating 30 years of coverage of the u.s. senate on c-span 2. announcer: coming up next, a look at the impact foreign workers are having on the u.s. labor market. after that, defense secretary ashton carter talks about ongoing efforts to modernize the military.

and then at 7:00, we open our phone lines and take a look at today's headlines on "washington journal." announcer: trade union leaders come immigration experts and economists spoke to lawmakers about the impact of a temporary program that u.s. employers can use to higher on workers for nonagricultural labor and services. is cappedsa program at 60,000 workers. but congress passed a provision in 2015 that would potentially increase the number of visas issued. this hearing is an hour and 45 minutes. you all for being here. i want everyone present to watch the hearing without obstruction. if people stand up and block the view of those behind them are speak out of turn, it is not fair or consider to others and officers will remove those individuals from the room. before we begin with opening statements, i want to explain

how we're going to proceed today. we have one panel of witnesses. i will make an opening statement. normally, we would have an opening statement from the ranking member. scheduling complex, it is my understanding that we can proceed without an opening statement from them today. after a brief introduction, each witness will have five minutes for an opening statement. following this statement, we will begin the first round of questions in which each senator will have five minutes. after the first round, if any senator wishes to continue with questions, we will have a second round of western. and so -- round of questions. and so with that, i opened this hearing. today's hearing is a continuation of a series of hearings that this subcommittee has held over the last few months about the effects of our current immigration programs on working americans. as many of you will remember, we held a hearing earlier this year

that highlighted the damage done to the wages and job opportunities of americans in a highly skilled segment of our economy. we also held a hearing earlier established that our current high levels of immigration, both legal and illegal are having a negative impact on wages and job opportunities for american workers as a whole. in fact, i think very few dispute, under the current large flow of labor into the country, is suppressing american wages. today, we are here to examine the effects of the h-2b nonimmigrant visa program on the wages and job opportunities of american workers in the so-called lesser skilled segment of the labor market. issuesprogram that 66,000 new work visas every year to temporary low skilled foreign labor. these other jobs that some people say americans are not willing to do.

instruction, seafood, construction, landscaping, truck driving jobs across the hospitality industry and others. it is important to note, program that they h-2b does not provide jobs for the agricultural section. that is in the agricultural program and is not included in what we are talking about today. not only have we been told that americans are not willing to do jobs that h-2b workers often fill, but also that employers simply cannot find anyone to do them. some say they just cannot find anyone who is willing to drive a truck or build houses or , waitcial buildings tables, pushing a lawnmower, work the landscaping or clean hotels. and yet come as we hear today, with few exceptions, this is not the case. not only are there willing americans, but they are not in short supply. according to data from the u.s. department of labor, the total labor force participation rate

in the united states last month 62.6%.roximately for those with a high school equivalent, or the it was approximately 57% only. for those with less than a high school diploma, it was approximately 44%. so this is a historic low. they work force participation rate is a disaster for americans. we have more and more people in the labor force and fewer and fewer people working. these statistics make clear that there is simply not a shortage of american workers, rather a shortage of americans with a jobs to work. too few have jobs.

they have an insatiable demand for foreign labor, which is easy to exploit, much easier to replace than american workers, and often pay substantially less wages. they do not feel, and may be strictly speaking, they have no loyalty to the other american workers. their loyalty, i suppose, is their bottom line and the stockholders. but somebody needs to be america, what is happening to our people, our country, our economy, how many people on welfare, how many people need to be working instead of being on welfare, hammond of people whose time is being compromised because they are out of work for extended periods of time and would they like to have a pay raise every now and then instead of having flat wages for the last 20 years. opennstead of having an

and honest debate about increasing the actual number of visas available under the cap, these special interests have found it easier to rely on what amounts to an accounting trick, the so-called returning worker exemption, which simply does not count against the cap. who counted against the cap in the last three fiscal years. under the returning worker exemption, as a matter of simple math, if different workers were present in each of these three years, up to 198,000 additional workers could come to the united program.der the h-2b that is in addition to the 66,000 who would be allowed to .ome under the current cap in reality, that number will not be so high. but it will be significant. some of these workers have been present in multiple years. others have completely absconded from their jobs.

and others never returned home and would not be eligible to produce of eight in future years. to participate in future years. evidence shows that, if this provision went into effect for a full fiscal year, we would likely see at least a doubling of a number of hb two -- of h-2b workers. in 2007, the last year the returning worker provision was in effect, the department of state issued a total of 129,000 workers, twice what the current cap calls for. in 2006, it was 122,000. notably, this returning worker provision found its way into the omnibus appropriation bill back in december. the congressional budget office did an analysis and at speaker riser choirs and predicted that

the inclusion of this provision 8000 result in only about additional workers in fiscal year -- this fiscal year. due to the fact that it took place late in the year, in december, among other things. , u.s. of may 12 citizenship and immigration services has already received enough petitions for the h-2b program to fill all of the 66,000 provisions under the cap this fiscal year. and as of may 13, u.s. citizenship and immigration service has already approved 11,000 returning worker petitions with another 1000 pending approval. of last month, a cbo analysis was already roughly 50% off its prediction of the effect of the returning worker provision this year. and fact, by the end of the year, when we know more will be approved, it will probably

double the program. -- double the prediction. but if the special interest managed to get it included in any appropriation bill that becomes the law for next fiscal year, we will see a further increase. moreover, it is a simple fact that the annual cap of 66,000 visas does not represented the total number h-2b of workers present in the united states at any given time. according to an analysis published by the u.s. department of homeland security in the federal register last year, due to extensions granted to h-2b workers already here, there are approximately 115,000 h-2b workers employed at any given time now in the united states. returningas the four worker exemption took effect. that number would be higher.

in effect, we do not need more h-2b workers. what we need is to get americans employed in to these jobs. the program has many other flaws. many of these workers come to the united states and of scone abscond to -- and o of add to the current number illegal -- we do not know how many of these individuals actually go home. words, these individuals who absconded from the employer at the worksite. what we don't know is we do not know how many people actually left the country when their employment ended. indeed, we have no record of that because we have no entry-exit visa in this country. so there are many problems with a h-2b program. with a simple matter is that

serving the is not national interest. our focus is to be getting americans back to work, not to see how many foreign workers we can bring to the united states. with that, i would conclude my remarks. i am pleased that chairman grassley has joined us. a. chairman, it is always pleasure to have you with us and for your leadership on these issues. and give you any time you have now to make a statement. senator grassley: i am going to put my statement in the wreckage using it to the witnesses. senator sessions: all right. senator grassley: sometimes our statements taken much time. senator sessions: ok. witnessesrt with our and introduce you one at a time.

mr. cunningham, mr. michael cunningham is the executive director and secretary-treasurer of a texas building and construction trade council. he followed his father's footsteps into the heat and frost insulated asbestos workers local number 113 in corpus christi, texas, back in 1972. hean apprentice insulator, has over four decades of experience and has served in a variety of positions, in addition to his other responsibilities, he has worked on issues related to guestworker visa since 2006, fighting to end fraud and abuses in that guestworker program. mr. cunningham, we would be glad to hear from you. mr. cunningham: -- let me ask all of you to rise and take this oath. and raise your right hand.

do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so hope you got? please have a seat. mr. cunningham, you can start off. mr. cunningham: thank you, mr. chairman. thank you for scheduling this hearing today on the h-2b program and your opening remarks. i agree with everything you said in your statement. i was so excited when i was considered to be a witness here today. i spent a lot of time over the last year years to bring attention to the fraud and abuse program by employers seeking foreign guest workers. so many industries that use h-2b workers, my focus is on fraud committed by companies and their registered agents paired i found the public is not aware of how they h-2b visa programs work and

how companies are turned to bring in foreign workers. i found the public is not really were -- i'm sorry, since 2007, i put together workshops for unions, trade councils to make them aware of this process. our mission is to teach everyone had to detect and react to these job postings for the related work and the geographical jurisdiction to help them respond. most important task is to check at the company determine if they really are a construction company or a labor broker. you would be surprised what we have found over the years. many of our unions are reacting to these postings, especially the union construction trade. we see many companies advertising with the intent of bringing h-2b workers and that never filed their h-2b application after union members apply for the job. they did not hire any union members, but i guess they were able to fire -- to hire enough american workers to do the work.

on theto go deeper welding occupation as it relates to construction projects. this is where we found of the biggest problem and wage disparities. the majority of applications we see apply for our welders who use their own production job family as welders, carter's, solders, and [indiscernible] biggest scope of welding is performed by pipefitters, boilermakers.d each of these union trades that have registered apprenticeship programs incidental to their trade in the construction industry. i haven't come across any registered production company apprenticeship programs that jobh welding, especially

shops. we have a large number of major industrial construction projects along the gulf coast in texas that have h-2b working today at a lower rate of pay. there really is no limit of what type of welding these production welders can perform when they are lumped into one category. if these companies were assigned , the wages would have been greater for the american workersand the guest would be in the right data sets. here are some examples in harris county. a pipefitter that does welding is $23.05 an hour. an a boilermaker's $6.28 hour. two of those graphs would require higher wages. one of the companies was partially certified for pipefitters and the production welders.

they originally applied for 400 pipefitters and 200 production welders. production will this should have -- productiond as welders should have been classified as pipefitters. this is not uncommon. we just had another posting yesterday for another hundred reduction welders in the harris county area. these h-2b certifications should have the proper server case applying welders. the welding certification companies are required to have, each company must have a welding program and a welding step that to pass aelders certificate for the job being performed. are really job

shops. they are supplying labor to general contractors and other construction companies that have the welding stamp them that means they are providing the production welder, basically being a payroll administrator. there are specific requirements for job shops. we don't think these companies can meet the litmus test of the temporary need if it was applied to them if they just checked the job content job on the application form. due to all of our concerns, we i amnued to discover -- concerned that workers have been for the last2b three years and making it worse for american workers. more concern that there is enough for to expand the cap further. .he program is broken in many areas, it needs major overhauls to protect wage standards. extending the cap will only make

things worse. more enforcement is provided. information is hell for one you look at making changes to the program. in my last statement is i am a skilled construction worker, like many others. it is almost an insult to us to be considered a low skilled occupation. we definitely should not be in classifications for guestworker occupations. thank you. pipe welder ors: boilermaker is classified as h-2b? we haven't seen any of those. but if you look under the ifupational category levels, you scroll them, you find that they also do welding. these are overlapping occupations that have been used to create a one-stop shop welder. senator sessions: all right. staffth's word served as

attorney for the southern party law center, image it -- immigrant justice project, represented hundreds of h-2b guest workers and student workers in hospitality, cepheid, landscaping and forest industry lawsuits come agency complaints and other advocacy regarding violations of federal law and regulations. she is a graduate of smith college and the university of memphis. we would be glad to hear your statement. : thank you. the southern poverty law center has represented tens of thousands of h2 a and h two b guest workers and losses related to pay and working conditions. we also published a report in 2013 about guestworker programs

in the united states title "close to slavery, which is a culmination of interviews with thousands of guest workers and legal experts area as the report surgeds, h-2b guest work as workers are systematically exploited because they are place at the mercy of a single employer. guest workers cannot change jobs if they are mistreated. as a result, the program is rife with abuse. typically starts before the workers have receipt -- arrived in the united states when they are forced to pay enormous sums of money to recruiters to obtain a job. because most workers to seek indigent, they have to find the money to pay the fees. guest workers are often misled by recruiters as to the terms of their employment. last year, h-2b workers from india won a dirty verdict

against signal international and their labor recruiters for a human trafficking scheme and withg them pay huge sums the promise of green cards. once in the united states, they labor in a system akin to indentured servitude because they are permitted to work only for the employer tied to their visa. they can't change jobs. if the employment situation is abusive, the workers only lawful recourse is to return to his or her country. the because most workers arrive in debt, they are effectively forced to remain and work for our employers, even when they are subjected to shameful abuse. and these abuses abound. for example, guest workers routinely receive less pay than the law requires. these are not subtle violations of the law, but the wholesale cheating of workers. workersthis year, h-2b have won nearly $2.5 million in

back wages and other damages. other workplace abuses are also common. for example, employers often bring in more guest workers than they need. this means workers can wake weeks or even months in the u.s. with no income before they are offered the hours they were promised. regulationsb address this problem whether provision again tease guarantees workers a minimum of three fourths of a day of work they were promised. but for july, the department of labor's enforcement of this regulation was defended by a writer in the 2016 appropriations act. fear of retaliation is another deeply rooted problem in guestworker programs and one that is wholly warranted because recruiters and employers hold such inordinate power over johnson visa status. it is my spans that, when guestworker stand up for their rights, they are almost always subject to some form of retaliation. the abuses suffered by h-2b

workers have an impact beyond that experience of the guest workers. they put profound downward pressure on the wage and working conditions of u.s. workers. 2004, we have represented guestworkers in obtaining settlements and judgments of nearly $60 million. there can be no doubt that the waget is -- of such annihilation is to suppress wage employments. a 2015 case filed by the ftse against mississippi landscaping company, culpepper enterprises, illustrates this point. culpepper was certified for h-2b workers in by promising the government they would pay than $11.11 per hour and recruit u.s. workers at the same rate. workers the h-2b

arrived, the company only paid them $7.20 an hour. the company representative testified that the u.s. workers they hired did not stick around. the u.s. workers who apply for $11 per hour job cannot be expected to stay on when they learn their actual pays almost four dollars per hour less. workers, whoseb legal status was tied to their employer, did not have the ability to move onto another job. and players also have powerful financial reasons to refer h-2b workers to u.s. workers. during a jury trial last year against signal international, a financial expert testified that signal stood to save over $22 million by virtue of this plan to fill nearly 500 welder jobs with h-2b workers for two to three years instead of hiring u.s. workers. so u.s. recruitment is a serious problem in this program. block the department of

labor's ability to enforce critical protections for u.s. workers. have a we as americans moral obligation to ensure the individuals who come to our country to work are treated with dignity. under the current structure of the h-2b program, we are far from eating that obligation. if this program is permitted to continue at all, it should not be expanded, but rather should be substantially reformed to address the vast disparity in power between guestworkers and their employers. thank you and i welcome your questions. senator sessions: thank you very much. next, we have mr. daniel costa, director of immigration law and policy research at the economic policy institute. he is also a visiting scholar at the university of california merced. costa is an attorney and his current areas of research include a wide range of labor issues come including new management of temporary foreign worker programs. he holds degrees from uc

berkeley, syracuse, and georgetown. mr. cost up to mr. costa: thank you, chairman sessions and other members of the committee. think tank dedicated fairness in the labor market. i am the son of two immigrants to the united states, each came from a different country and met in a great and successful melting pot that is my home state of california. we are the direct beneficiaries of the immigration system and we can never repay the debt to this country for the opportunities it has presented to us. while i agree that immigration system benefits many, but it needs many urgent reforms. getting the system right to maximize the benefits and reduce the costs. when it comes to the american temporary farmworker programs,

these are the non-visa programs, they are not functioning as they should. we should not be surprised by that fact. work programs that i workers to a single employer is a recipe for disaster. around the world, there is a global consensus among immigrants rights advocates that these are indentured slaveserver programs. in other words, slave labor. is primarily used for landscaping and 43 jobs as well as amusement park workers and other jobs. statutory language makes this clear. in other words, the program is intended to help employers who are experiencing a labor shortage when employees cannot find u.s. workers for lesser

skilled jobs. groups have claimed for years that there existed a shortage of laborers for certain jobs. however, despite such claims from industry groups, other than noloyer and it does, credible data or metrics have been presented to prove shortages in a -- in h-2b occupations. in fact, wages have been flat or declining for over a decade while unemployment rates in this occupations have been skyhigh. meeting at or hovering around double digits. ofse are not the indicators labor shortages. it doesn't mean they do not exist anywhere. it is possible that they exist in some states or localities. employer's experiencing

local labor shortages might find labor if they recruited outside their city or state. if the program is to continue to exist despite the lack of evidence, there should be strong and forcible roles requiring employers to recruit and hire any available euros workers to pay their h-2b workers no less than the average age. required toalready do so, it is obvious to any rational and disinterested person that the rules requiring u.s. workerss hire is inadequate and not even in force at all. what comes to enforcing wage meyer research shows that all employers pay less than adequate wages. one way is through the private wage surveys, which are far less credible.

that's why, in 2014, while the rules required rulers to pay the average wage, in a top occupation of landscaping, the wages $2.50ified less an hour than the average wage for landscapers in the united states. appropriations that expand surveys, in which it is being considered for 2017, is a way to ensure wages stay low in h-2b occupations. it should be abolished altogether. in conclusion, it is obvious is harmingogram migrant and american workers. i urge the subcommittee to see what it is. it is not the case of migrants coming to the united states to "steal jobs from americans." they were recruited and hired by u.s. companies. in low and stagnant wages not theupations are result of the nine -- of benign,

abstract forces. watered-down protections that workers should enjoy as a matter of course. in other words, margaret guestworkers are not the ones giving wages down and conditions deplorable. it is their employers. beb employers can and should held to a higher standard. but, as hester required -- required -- but congress has to require it of them. senator sessions: thank you. lead the department of economics and served as leroy g dinner regions professor of economics at the university of texas. he held faculty positions at georgetown university, university of pennsylvania, university of california santa barbara, yale university and texas a&m university. has writtens

extensively. he received his phd in economics in 1983 from the university of chicago. we are glad to have you. dr. bronars: thank you. economists often disagree about .he impact this program allows nonagricultural u.s. employers to alleviate some seasonal labor shortages in some geographic areas by hiring foreign-born temporary workers. programinion, the h-2b benefits small businesses, workers and consumers in the u.s. and does not harm your's workers. scaling back the program will have a negative effect on the revenue, the employment and wages in some seasonal industries. in contrast, the increase in workers,would benefit

consumers and employers in these industries. foreign workers entering the u.s. in this program will not impress the wages of similar u.s. workers for several important reasons. first, employers authorized to hire them must demonstrate that they were unable to successfully hire domestic workers to fill these positions. establishing that there are no directly competing u.s. workers came second, workers are -- employers are required to pay a prevailing wage or more. the 2015 final rule sets the prevailing wage equal to the mean wage in the area of intended employment in order to protect the domestic workers. this wages are most higher than the wages paid to the majority of workers in the same occupation and area. if employers are also able to find domestic workers to take the same positions as they workers, theh-2b domestic workers must also be paid this prevailing wage. third, the program is small and compared to the size of the u.s. labor market.

whether we come to the 66,000 visas being issued to the number of workers in the occupations that are most likely to be filled by these workers or whether we compare the size of a program to the number of adults in the labor force with a high school degree or less, which is the skilled are most likely to be directly affected by this program, the inflow of h-2b workers is a fraction of 1%. so even without the other protections, the relatively workersflow of h-2b would have a measurable impact on wages. h-2b workers are also here temporarily good 66,000 visas a year does not accumulate because each year, 66,000 workers arrive in delhi later in the year. the program something too small and a guestworkers and i here long enough to have a lasting and measurable impact on the wages and in wages and implement opportunities of u.s. workers overall. i thinkme explain what the program can copy it.

each visa recipient is not -- does not displace american worker but fills a position that otherwise would remain vacant. when a seasonal position is filled by a foreign worker, it is better able to increase and put. employees that are complementary to seasonal workers benefit from the program because a reliable supply of temporary workers increases their job security and their income opportunities. for example, in the many landscaping businesses, they want to increase the number of cruise they can send a in the spring and summer, when more lawn work they should be done and more frequently. if these businesses are unable to find enough u.s. workers to send out more cruise, the h-2b program could be healthful. and a permanent u.s. employees of this small business, the managers and supervisors any mechanics who fixed increment, the book he present even the full-year groundskeeping workers will have more job security and

higher expected income because the landscaping company will now be better able to send out more cruise and expand operations during the months of the demand. and if we deny the sister these companies come if they have these temporary labor knees, and hurts not only the owners of the small business, but the permanent employees of the small business and the customers of the company as well. visa conclusion, they h-2b program provides several layers of protections for u.s. workers. the prevailing wage in the labor market test make the annual cap of 66,000 visas per year somewhat redundant. they h-2b -- the can help program enhance -- these costs and the fact that the h-2b prevailing wage is almost always higher than the

wage paid to similar workers. are ag that h-2b workers source of last resort. not adverselyl affect u.s. workers come even if the annual cap on visas was doubled or tripled. thank you. senator sessions: thank you. we have -- next, we have dr. cammarata. he is the director of research for the center for immigration studies. research considerable on all these issues. his research has been on the numerous media outlets and published in a variety of journals.

he received his masters degree in political science from the university of pennsylvania and a doctorate degree from the university of virginia and public policy analysis. thank you. first, i would like to thank the subcommittee and senator sessions for and writing me to testify. -- for inviting me to testify. my testimony is not focused on the h-2b program per se. i will focus on the bigger issue on whether the program is even needed in the first place. the entire justification for the program is that the supply of domestic workers willing and able to do seasonal, low skilled work in nonagricultural jobs is inadequate. in my view, this argument is ridiculous on its face. all of the data the government collect shows that there is an abundant supply such workers in the united states. the only piece of evidence that workers are in short supply is testimonials from owners of business looking to import more foreign labor.

we can debate what the research shows about the impact of immigration on the wages or the employment of nativeborn americans. but there is widespread agreement that wages have for lowerand declined skilled and less educated americans. the vast majority of h-2b petitions are for low-wage jobs that require very low education and skills. data from the first half of this year shows, if we look at the petitions, that two thirds of h-2b jobs said that they didn't require experience and 95% said there was no education requirement. some of the top occupations are landscaper, made for my music park attendant, construction labor, coax, movers, production helpers, waiters, waitresses, dishwashers. these are not jobs requiring high skills that no american or even an illegal immigrant -- a legal immigrant already here can fill.

the majority of the workers in these occupations right now are born in the united states. the idea that these are jobs that americans don't do is absurd. data from 2004, the census bureau shows that 90 -- 950,000 come almost a million, nativeborn americans who are landscapers and they comprise three fourths of the occupation. 51% of maids are us-born in the united states and they are almost 900,000 of them. two thirds of construction laborers are u.s. born. the xoma stability of them. there's 1.8 million kicks in the united states and a make up 70% of the clerks and the overwhelming majority of people during the kinds of jobs done by h-2b visa workers are less educated, nativeborn americans. so how have a less educated done? the answer question please terrible. real wages adjusted for inflation for workers with no more than a high school 10%, 20% are down since the 1970's.

and even recent trends shown a recovery. a labor really was shortage, wages should be will rising rapidly as employers drive up wages and bid them up in a desperate attempt to retrain -- to retain and attract new workers. but it is the opposite that is generally happening. wages in h-2b occupations show no evidence of labor shortage. most of the occupations between 2007 and 2014 show a decline. for food a 10% decline preparation and service workers and forest and conservation workers. these are two of the biggest h-2b categories. wages have declined one and 5% for ticket takers, resort desk clerks, and security guards. in addition to the wage data, the employment data for the less educated also looks abysmal. 42% of nativeborn americans 18

to 55 without a high school education worked in the first quarter of this year. even for people with a high school education, it was only 65%. these represent dramatic declines from the historical averages. right now, there are 30 million nativeborn americans and immigrants already here will have no education beyond high school and are not working. even if only half of these individuals want to work and can do so, it still represents a huge supply of potential less educated or unskilled labor. some of the biggest declines in work have been among the young. one last summer, only about third of teenagers work. 20 years ago, it was more than half. this is very disconcerting because there is a growing body of research showing those who do not work when they are young, especially those who do not go on to college, often have trouble finding and retaining work throughout their lives.

it seems you have to learn the skills necessary to function in the labor market when you are young. the evidence is clear. there is no shortage of less educated workers to fill unskilled jobs. of course, employers may have to pay more and treat workers better and develop new means of recruiting the -- recruiting workers if the supply of immigrant labor is reduced. but in my view, higher wages and leastent rates for the educated and poor's americans should be seen as a positive thing, not something that we tried to stop through our immigration policies. thank you. senator sessions: thank you. i appreciate that. i believe we in congress, it should be our goal to create defenses that allow wages to at least keep up with inflation and ask the grow faster. that's when you've got a healthy economy. i do believe this wage stagnation and even decline is part of the angst that the american people are feeling today.

cunningham, the production well there is considered a job under the h-2b program. mr. cunningham: yes, sir. it is a classification. one of yourions: complaints is that they are hired as a production welder but actually taking jobs from boilermakers and pipe welders and higher categories that are not part of the h-2b program. mr. cunningham: yes, sir. not including the welding in those crafts. that is a basic format of all the trades that weld appeared if you look at the wage determinations under the davis-bacon act, if you look at that, every trade on that list, at the very end of the wages, there is a statement of the welders rates.

we have the department of labor in one instance regulating the davis-bacon act and then turning around and using a different standard for the h-2b guestworker welders. senator sessions: thank you. that you are both familiar with the analysis conducted by the congressional budget office on the effects of the returning worker provision in this year's omnibus appropriations bill. in which a predicted that prison -- the provision would result in only about 8000 original workers as cbo predicted, which was pretty clearly wrong when it was issued. to me. as i mentioned in miami opening statement, not only his u.s. citizenship and immigration service received already petitions to take all 66,000 slots. but as of last week, it had approved petitions for 12,000 additional returning workers category as approved by that 1171 pendingther

approval, which would total about 14,000, well above the 8000. ordinarily, the petitions do not match the number of visas issued and the number of workers admitted. they given that these workers were here before, isn't it likely the numbers will be relatively close? mr. costa: our sense of the center is absolutely. with this kind of regulation change, they always get a wrong. it turns out to be higher than was anticipated. that is what we have seen. senator sessions: with regard to ,ome of the temporary jobs summer is part of that time, is it not? dr. camarota: yes, seasonal

employment is highest in the summer. senator sessions: i do think it is something unusual that college students at even high school graduates aren't working much in the summers today. i'm not sure that is a healthy thing. work was good for me. i worked construction two summers. dr. camarota: the research shows, especially if you or someone not going on to college, it is really important for you to work when you're a teenager. it turns out it is very hard to line how to fashion in the world of labor if you try to learn it when you're 27 rather than, say, 17, like showing up on time and not tell your boss he is an idiot, even if he really is. you have to learn these things. and what happens to these people who don't work when they are young, they often struggle to find and retain jobs throughout their lives, at least into their 30's and 40's, which is how long they have been tracked you. senator sessions: you learn

things on the job that can do repairs at home and save the family some money sometimes. if the numbers closely aligned and appears through the cbo, although the cbo underestimated ,he number of returning workers by september 30, we are talking about 14,000 now are proved or the pipeline. you -- ars: mr. costa: you have better data than i do. senator sessions: that was a month ago. a thousand seems too little. my hunch is that the number will be as high as it could become a far because the exemption did not go into force until after the first quarter of 2016. but the fact of the matter is that employers didn't have the time to plan and seek out returning workers. , ittor sessions: last year

stayed in effect with employers having an opportunity to use a program and more of the numbers would be even higher. i think there will be some and i can 2016. i think the real impact will be in 2017 went employers will be able to go out and seek far more workers. although weions: of 66,000fect a cap workers, we are told, as i mentioned in my opening when we see visas -- they can be expendeextended. 129,000 in 2007 and 122,000 in 2006, this is on the returning worker problem. if this returning worker provision is included, would you agree

>> there are a lot of people who stay. that is why we grant these exemptions. that is why you end up with a lot more people than just the formal cap. >> from homeland security analysis that appeared last year, there are already approximately 115,000 h-2b workers in the united states at any given time due to extensions provided to workers who did not count against the cap. is that correct? >> there are extensions and even though h-2b job should be certified for less than a year, it can be certified under the one-time occurrence for up to

three years. sen. sessions: thank you for your attention to these issues and your good participation on a whole host of issues and this one particularly. >> thank you. a lot of times it is just you and me so i get to ask a lot of questions. i come at this from an interesting perspective, i am a senator from north carolina. sometimes i feel like i live on an island nation. the island of north carolina. hopefully with your indulgence i will stick around for a second round. in north carolina i was speaker of the house. in 2011, we did a lot of reform measures, including verifying a number of things that deals with worker population. in 2011, north carolina had the highest unemployment in the nation. after we implemented unemployment reform, over five quarters, the unemployment rate

went down to 6.4 percent, the most precipitous drop of any state in that nation over the time. we had a lot of american workers who are unemployed and going back to work. i still hear from people who rely on the temporary worker program that they don't have adequate people to fill the jobs. i come out of from this perspective from some data that i encourage others to work at the sea were people migrated back to work. mr. costa, in your opening comment you talked about how maybe some of these temporary jobs could be filled if employers spent more time recruiting outside of their geographic area or if the geographic area didn't have the job skills and perhaps you would have to increase the wages. many of these jobs are competing on a global basis.

at what point does the cost of using that really make a point where it is cost prohibitive to other services workers? i spent time with a commercial fisherman, they are not the employers of the h-2b workers, they are american-born folk going out into the estuaries. and bringing in shrimp and crab and fish. if they can't find workers at a reasonable price point we can already see substantially with imported shrimp to a lesser extent crab and other products. i can understand if you pay more for recruiting, pay for maybe transportation, pay for wages, then you can get more workers. at what point does that become an artificial objective? to be able to get to a reliable supply on a seasonal basis would

simply make that seafood packet tell the commercial fisherman the american drivers, the distributors and the people selling the seafood produce in north carolina can no longer do that. >> first the h-2b statute requires worker not be hired unless they are unemployed workers in this country. >> we work closely with our employment security division to make absolutely certain they have vetted the workers. >> nationwide recruiting, which means to me -- >> lets it we have a good base of people in california. that's safe sometime in may.

pretend i am a business owner. how do i make these economics work. >> it seems to me it would be cheaper to offer california workers to offer transportation to come to work in north carolina. if they declined it they could get h-2b workers. is it going to be more expensive for cheaper than having to recruit a worker for mexico or bolivia? that would be a toss up there. >> that would be the case in north carolina about 35 seafood processors. they can no longer sta in business. i have no doubt in my mind, not only do i love your sense of humor but i produce

that but you produce some great information. you had a stunt double that looked like they were here. with respect to worker conditions, if you know of a single example of conditions you are talking about in north carolina or more examples, i want to know about them. we address any issues of migrant workers. i don't have any doubt there is fraud in this process. i want to track down to make them obey the law. if you continue to think in my case in the state of north carolina that these jobs will be filled, i think we run into an economics problem. to where we will simply decide to exit markets. as a result we will impact american workers we don't get this right. i went over my time.

>> well done. next, mr. blumenthal. thank you for your active participation in the committee and your interest in these issues. >> with an apparent lack of enforcement, the problems in this program have been persistent and prevalent. the abuses seem to be rife, the evidence is overwhelming. i want to ask to be inserted in to the record a couple of documents, one from the national recruitment working group, a coalition of civil rights groups.

which have submitted a letter. we have asked of these letters be included in the record. the evidence shows that some employers have attempted to recruit american workers. they commit wages violations. all of these abuses fly in the face of what the h-2b program is intended to do. they will help american businesses grow and thrive when there is no american to do with the job. cosigned with seven of my colleagues that would improve

the program and serve its intended purpose. the obama administration has been thwarted by opposition in the senate. those rules have failed to have the full impact that they should. there is really a monumental problem with enforcement. the me begin by asking you, miss stewart, because you detailed very graphically and powerfully in your testimony, h-2b that results in invulnerable workers being exploited workers in contact with bad active recruiters, charging exorbitant fees and then they work in essence to pay off their debt. when they discover their job is not what it was promised, they are shackled to that job because of their obligation to pay off

are the protections currently contained in the h-2b regulations officially strong to prevent this kind of new's? -- this kind of abuse? >> thank you for your questions, i know you have been a champion of these issues in terms of getting fair labor recruitment measures. you are correct that it is our experience that it is very difficult to hold international recruiters liable for recruitment abuse that tends to have worker so deeply in debt when they are here in the united states. though the 2015 h-2b regulations do substantially improve upon existing protections, they don't go far enough. we think congress needs to more carefully and vigorously

regulate international recruiters so there is more transparency in the recruitment process and more accountability. we think there needs to be written disclosures given to workers about the terms of their employment. we think there needs to be a public registry of recruiters who have to post a bond to ensure they can be included in that registry. we think employers should be held liable for the bad acts of the recruiters who are essentially their agents in foreign countries. those are the type of protections we really need in order to protect foreign workers, h-2b workers who come to the country and are deeply in debt. >> if the employers were held accountable for the tactics and abuses of their agents, the foreign recruiters will act with their implicit knowledge, and even if they don't act explicit

instruction they are still agents for all purposes. that would have a significant effect, wouldn't it? >> absolutely. i think that would place a larger burden on employers to ensure they are not using fly-by-night recruiters and other countries. >> thank you. any other members of the panel want to comment on that? thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you very much. we have another hearing with the transportation secretary of commerce, i'm sorry i missed your testimony. i did read some of it. i first want to say the program in my state, we have a big tourism industry in northern minnesota. we have trouble getting workers, there are a lot of workers that come down from canada, students, younger people. the local resorts rely on the

h-2b visa. i appreciate the chairman having this hearing. obviously we need protections in place to protect u.s. workers. my focus today is going to be on the h-2b program and the effect it would have on local businesses, seasonal industries. for example one of our most popular vacation spots, i suggest you visit there, has around 500 employees, including about 85 who are international. can you elaborate on the house scaling back the program being helpful to solve businesses that are in an area right near the canadian border? >> thank you very much. before i answer that question, we had some testimony about fact that wages are stagnant and there is not enough economic growth and not enough jobs.

this program is a small narrow tailored program. it is not going to solve all these problems. cape cod of resorts that compete with resorts all over the place. >> exactly. there aren't enough people in the town to fill all those positions. the 66,000 visa limit is so tiny compared to the size of the u.s. economy. you are not going to see the shortages in the aggregate data that this program can help fix. this program helped fix

shortages that a very localized and specific. if these businesses cannot ramp up their production of services whether it is seafood or hospitality, what is going to happen is it is going to be like saying to a retailer you are not going to be able to take full advantage of the holiday season. protecting u.s. workers and small business owners that are in the same businesses. >> in the winter we may not have quite as much tourism as we do in minnesota. so we have a big flood of tourism in the summer. we have some in winter with ice fishing and snowmobiling. but we have less of it. we have this demand at one time. testimonyed in your that the h-2b workers are last resorts for businesses facing shortage of temporary workers. what efforts of the required to undertake to hire domestic workers before they are allowed

to petition for an h-2b visa? >> they have to advertise for these positions and make an attempt to hire u.s. workers for these jobs. if they can find them for the advertised jobs they will have to pay that prevailing wage, same whether it is a u.s. worker or the h-2b worker, so that is part of the rule and i think it should be enforced and i know there has been a question about how well it is enforced by the way it is written, that is what they should have to do. >> last year a letter to the department of labor and department of homeland security emphasizing the importance of consistent processing of the visas after the processing had been temporarily halted. what are some of the negative consequences of a delay or stoppage in processing in terms of the operation of the small business? >> for a lot of these jobs, you need to workers to be there at a

particular point that time. and so, the delays that could happen and the processing could be costly to the businesses to not be able to get the workers into these positions when their services are needed. >> thank you, we appreciate it. >> just in case -- we actually had a snowfall season before last in north carolina. >> can we correct the record? thank you. [laughter] >> over the years, for many years, people in my age would go work in resorts in the great

west and i have fond memories of doing that. doctor, all in all, it is better for america, is it not, that jobs if possible can be filled by americans yet, many of whom if they are now working when be receiving benefits of some form or another from the government. >> we have a huge supply of people with not a lot of skills or education working. those are unprecedented unity would be great if we could retrain them to be computer programmers but the kinds of jobs they can do are exactly that jobs that people are being allowed to bring in foreign workers for it. if you ever have any hope of bringing people back into the labor market and getting labor

force participation like they were, you will have to put them in these jobs for the most part. the other question is, when employers say i cannot find anyone, to next question should be, how much have you increased wages? we have shortages but the data shows large wage increases. if there is a shortage, there should be a wage increase. it seems like what the employer wants to do is keep them down. perfectly understandable. should this congress be complicit in that desire? >> our free-market friends need to recognize that there is a market in labor and wages and when wages are not going up, you do not have a shortage. mr. cunningham, briefly, in your opinion, based on your

experience, are they are currently h-2b workers in the construction industry feeling jobs that americans would do? >> there definitely are, especially the jobs that are advertised at the right wage, more american workers might apply for those jobs. if your example, the unemployed union pipefitter -- i am a welder -- and i go to an unemployment center and i apply for that job and i see the job posting -- here is a job paying a little bit more but is only two or three weeks, i would probably take that one over a production welder -- 10 months long at a lower wage. i am not going to apply for the job that is not what i'm used to working for in my standard of living. it is advertised as a pipefitter job -- it might look that -- they might look at that and say i might want to take a job.

>> you details some problems with advertising and wages that are not accurate or do not properly provide opportunities for american workers. it seems to me that one of the questions to wrestle with is something north carolina did a great job dealing with which is incentivizing people to not be on benefits but to go to work. i think that was a helpful trend. is it possible -- secondly -- most americans would like a permanent job and not a short-term job. there is no doubt about that. if you have a second job that's going to be a year, 10 years, as opposed to one where construction job is going on six months, you would rather take a permanent job.

seems to me to short-term job should pay more. could you -- is it possible that we can use the incentive of welfare reform and have welfare reform that could make it incentivize people to work at a job that my last just six months even though they would prefer a permanent job and could that experience helped them find a permanent job in the future? >> it is perfectly reasonable to argue that the welfare system does not incentivize work but the fraction of people using welfare actually doing but they also collect benefits but if you

want that as your goal, i hear higher wages is one of the best ways to get to that goal and as you point out, we know that once people start working it tends to build on itself just in the way that once people do not work that tends to build on itself and create problems down the road. people do not like to hire somebody who has not worked in a while and does not have the experience. a part-time job can be just that leg into the labor market. >> my question is driven by a rather significant increase plan increase in the program even though the doctor has opined that we can do well without it. at this point there is no plan to eliminate a program. we are talking about whether it should be increased and actually probably more than doubled. >> thank you. i got a lot of questions for you but i would like to start with the concept of all we have to do is spend more money to create a broader labor force.

hospitality is different than seafood packing. have you seen any research on well let's just hypothetically increase wages by 50% or a certain industry that compete globally -- is there any research out there that says you simply get to a point where the american product without the competitive?be >> i haven't seen research specifically but it depends on how labor-intensive the industry is. >> it is going to raise costs, raise prices, you are going to have a harder time competing in

a world market. it is one of the things that businesses are facing whether it is in seafood or agriculture and so that is going to be put real limits on the small businesses pay they cannot just dictate the prices -- >> marketplace of carolina shrimp almost never buy for and important if it is available and i am willing to fortunately be able to pay a premium for it but we all know you reach a point to where the argentinian red shrimp will be picked over carolina white shrimp because people cannot just pay for it and they want shrimp that night. it seems to me that in certain categories, and again, i think everyone -- if you -- by the way, my father was an ironworker. i think in every case you can find fraud and abuse, examples were neighboring the wages are not consistent with the prevailing wage. there should be a discussion about ending the h-2b program needs to be couched in that if you are looking to kill american jobs because i absolutely think that it will happen in a we have to do is have people prevail in

we will see it happen. we'll see people go out of business -- no doubt -- maybe that is what we need to do to prove the point? hopefully we can get those jobs. i also want to talk about something you said. look, i really -- i believe it is to north carolina unlike minnesota, we have four seasons. before you got a program or somebody is able to define a season is more than 12 months have looks to me as an area that we need to look to either improve enforcement or reform the law because that doesn't make sense to me. there may be a temporary status that we should look at separately by the seasonal factors that drive certain

industries are real if you are talking about seafood processing in alaska -- i was talking with senator murkowski who say they have about a seven-week fishing season there for seafood processing -- who is going to go to the outrages of alaska where nobody lives for seven weeks of income and consider that a lifestyle? a question i have for you also has to do with do we see any differences were legitimately seasonal factors drive employment practices and when i think about north carolina is really diverse state -- we have the mountains where it snows. also has a very vibrant spring and summer tourism season. have we looked at any regions where the prospect of an american worker to have a 12 month job makes them more likely or you can opine on this too -- makes it more likely that a higher percentage of those jobs will be fared well in american workers because they can get a 12 month job versus eastern north carolina and elsewhere where you don't have the population base -- the

year-round population base and it isn't temporary workers then they only be looking 5-6 months of work for-503-4 in the seafood industry? >> first of all, the industries that we see using the program in the states where bring in workers have these kind of seasonal patterns details attended a more out-of-the-way places, right you can when we are talking about how well do we measure wages and in plaintiff people are out of work there is a difference between with a population centers and hardware some of these jobs are which is where the issues that we have been talking about here so you not only have what you have seasons, you have a certain industries and occupations and i think he was said that most of the jobs that are in these occupations are held by workers here in the u.s.. we are talking about a fraction of a percent.

>> by the way if you have ever been to the outer banks you will know it is out there -- it is a part of north carolina but it takes seven hours for us to drive to the outer banks to ensure that it happens to be one of the least populated most -- then i should say banked by one of the most least populated most rural areas of the state so you don't have that you get them to than problem that we discussed if you have to go further route to secure those resources than i think that you do run into -- you run into economic problems for running a business -- >> one other thing that if you are one of these businesses it is veryimportant to you. it is a small part of the total of the u.s. economy. but as i don't to certain businesses in certain locations and -- >> you are going to allow another round of questions? i will hold my question. >> i think senator johnson made a good point. we tend to think in terms of a global marketplace. there is a global competitive marketplace out there. but, i am wary -- the american people are wary of wages are not

going down or flat. and corporate interests doing pretty well. growth isn't much -- but they continue to use various abilities to contain costs and maintain, but the average guy is having a hard time -- that is just a fact. there are a lot of these businesses like landscaping -- i am watching very closely now -- people i see that are working on landscaping are not for the most part i believe immigrants or visa-overstayers. the restaurants -- things like construction work. those are big part of the jobs that i think got to be carefully watched to make sure we are not interfering with the national rise of wages that should occur in america that has been

occurring.n't been that is the only thing i would say although we do need to be careful about it and i think this project program has some validity to it and if properly managed but it is hard to manage it. with regard to the people, we know since 2009 i believe we have had some 15,000 reported as absconding by their employers. they take a job and got into the country on a visa and they went their own way and didn't complete their work. do we even know the people who complete their years or months of work -- if they actually leave the country? >> as you know, the general estimates are that about 5 million -- 40% of the illegal immigrants are visa overstays. i have never seen an estimate

for this particular program that we would expect that over time, thousands of people will overstay and we will not know because that is how lax we do not track departures. >> initially, on a visa, but not return and i think i saw recent numbers and half a million overstayed their visas last year. ms. stewart, on your evaluation, could the government do a better job of enforcing the laws that we have to protect the work american workers -- is that feasibility -- you have been

doing it during the lawsuit -- private sector way -- are there any suggestions that you have maintain more integrity in this system? >> sure, thank you for the question, senator. i think the department of labor has attempted over the years to implement more robust protections for u.s. workers and h-2b workers and those protections each year or each time they enact them have been rolled back or joined by employer-driven litigation or appropriations measures. not all of them that some of the key protections per so i think the first step would be to stop making changes to their program to appropriations measures, the department of labor implement and enforce the protections that exist for workers and we also think there should be more protections to nature that workers are not subject to the abuse that we have seen over the years and this program. we would recommend certainly better oversight, more funded to the department of labor's that

they can do their job to enforce the protections that exist and we think congress should regulate recruitment of internationally-recruited workers to make sure they are not subject to false promises and extreme debt. we shouldn't there should be -- we think there should be better wage protections for h-2b workers so that way they complain about on working conditions and depressed wages, they are not retaliated against, that there is not a chilling effect on their right to defend their rights and we also think h-2b workers should have better access to the courts by making them eligible for federally-funded legal services. finally we think it would help to overhaul the structure of the program, which has workers tied to a single employer. as long as that structure exists, the program is going to lead to exploitation of h-2b workers and make them preferable to employers than u.s. workers.

>> thank you. >> thank you, mr. chair. mr. cunningham, i want to square up with some north carolina specifics. i mentioned my father was an iron worker. he did that until he was in his 30's. one of the things we had to focus on when i was in the legislature was the shortage of trade skills in north carolina. we spent a lot of money in our programs, we got a gray -- great community college system in north carolina, we do a lot of collaboration with businesses to train people up and taken certified in trades. why am i having to spend money on having to do that if there is a dearth of resources available for these jobs? >> thank you, senator. >> and by that, i do mean, in one year, at $10 million appropriation to try and attract

people into these traits. -- into these trades. >> it is really all about training. and training workers for these jobs, which we are seeing that most companies do not want to invest in training and recruit workers into a good middle-class living -- >> i am referring to the comments in your testimony which is that we already have available trained resources, they are just being displaced in other words there is a dearth of available resources -- just a matter of matching them to the jobs versus the next step which is training. my experiences we need training because at least in north carolina we do not appear to have the labor supply at the -- that we need so we are spending taxpayer dollars to infuse training programs in over community college system to bring the people and others are saying that there is a dearth of available people willing to work already -- i am just trying to square that with just to get north carolina. >> senator, construction is not a permanent job. there are ups and downs.

you get good job, get laid off -- >> i spent many years traveling all over the country because work is not available in our area. i will say that the unions have probably the biggest network of trained force that are ready to going travel to an area where they need workers the unions have those jobs -- they are going to go -- they are going to take care of their families and keep the benefits going and i said -- that is what we do in construction. we need more investment in training like some of the other models in other countries -- we talk global economy in europe that have mandatory apprenticeship programs. >> would that suggest that there is at least a skills gap somewhere that we would need to make and i'm assuming either businesses are taxpayer dollars to the scale at the resources so we have a qualified -- we have a more consistent flow of workers to fill these jobs for right now their work visas and i will -- full disclosure -- it is not an

area of the program i focus mainly on, the seafood and hospitality industry but i was just curious -- it is an outlier at least in north carolina. >> depends the part of the country where the unemployment is at and what you need. what we found is we have had workers apply for these h-2b jobs and they have been denied for a qualified workers -- these countries really don't want to hire american workers and i'm speaking mostly in the construction industry -- i am not speaking for all of that -- i am not really involved in that when you have workers -- qualified workers apply for these jobs and these companies go out there in the interview and they either don't return your call or they lie on the recruiting reports, we've got people available to fill the jobs but that is what we need more enforcement in that is why in my statement -- if you go back and look, is these companies out there and should be part of the process.

-- should not be part of the process. we've got enough unemployed people in this country to train to do construction work. so, we've had so many other issues where we find these contractors had to bring in these visa workers -- they are now and the intended areas of employment it if you look at my statement for the record, i give you a lot of issues -- >> and incidentally that is an area, i mean, i think even though the chair and i may have some differences on the margins. i think when it comes to fraud, when it comes to any demonstrable areas of our conditions, those sorts of things, when he did time up the legislation that is necessary, but i will tell you, i went out in eastern north carolina -- my staff is been up there with me a couple of times and i wonder why somebody that generally speaking i guess probably the enrollment papers and the application -- probably about that many pages

to hire an american worker for a job. that involves the manager, the owner processing and handling paperwork and getting it done that when you hire a visa worker the paperwork stack is about that thick and you have to become an expert in dealing with consulates, you have to be an expert in dealing with private surveys, you have to have an expert in the department of labor to actually do their job where they say they have a shortage of resources, like any sane person would prefer to go through this process including the variability of it and the inability to plan from season to season tells me that if they really just want to hire temporary worker when there is a resource -- maybe they have to pay one dollar more an hour -- then they are not a sane person and so if there are people out there -- i want to go through

the hassle of dealing with the federal government -- then seek medical attention, because it doesn't make sense. what i want to do -- i'm the very process-oriented person, systematic person, want to find bad actors and stop them, but to assume -- and we are only talking about hb-2, we're not talking about h-1 or other things that have their own pluses and minuses an impact on american worker opportunities. on this temporary program, i really appreciate, mr. chair, the amount of time that you have. we need to peel back these layers and have a more hands-on approach and i don't know -- i suspect some of y'all have that i had spent days out in the state of north carolina touring facilities, to everyone's after we passed legislation, and the steward, in north america -- particularly in agriculture -- to get a -- i mean, a birds eye view of the situation, with respect, that runs counter --

and, with the regulatory reform, the work we did in north carolina, it was counter to some of your experiences -- some of it may be explained by regional differences but i hope that will continue this discussion and really get things in the final that address some of the legitimate concerns that have been expressed here but also address what i think is a legitimate concern that we could have an economic impact that could put american business out of business and american workers out of work, and then, if you want to see the stagnation -- and again, with a relatively small percentage of the population, i think that many people have a disproportionate view of the number of people that are coming in on this program -- i am only talking about this program -- we have a situation with illegals are really causing a big pressure on good actors to the hb-2 program because they are competing illegally. that's got to get fixed.

that is a major problem. i think we need to be very methodical in how we go about this and recognize, you cancel this program, and you will cancel american jobs. thank you, mr. chair. >> well, i don't think we need to increase -- and i'm going to resist them steadfastly and i do worry that we've got 94 million people in this country outside the workforce. you is it true that from 2000-2014, we had an increase in the population of -- what percentage of the jobs that were created during that time went to immigrants? legal or illegal? >> roughly speaking if we look at the working age, 16-65, on the job growth went to

immigrants between 2000-2014 even though the nativeborn of population60% growth in networking his population so you would have gotten around 60% increase in employment -- did not turn out that way. it is a net figure, so. >> i am just worried about it. i think some trends that there are troubling, that our government needs to understand that perhaps we can do better. we had a plant that came into needed 4000 workers for a shipyard on short order. the state moved in with their job training program and some advertisement him he met the challenge. i was really worried that this company might be disappointed in all investment because they couldn't get the workers -- they were not readily available, they had to be trained but the wages and all that attracted them, they came in the numbers and they are very happy with their workforce, so i do think it does

appear, to me, that businesses are more demanding that when they expand a line form out the door if people perfectly ready to take a job. but, with over good job training programs, if we spend more money or were more smart about it i think we could get more people ready to take jobs when they are needed in some people won't move and i understand and respect that in some people will move if it is financially worth it. one european executive told me that he thought the american people were the most mobile workers in the world and is one of the great strengths of americans is that you could set up a plant to people would come from around the country if they had a good job and a limit of -- a lot of people in europe apparently like to stay with a have always been raised, so it is the strength of american vitality.

so you end up with the situation where we have 38,000 jobs last month increased when we expected 150. based on population growth, is it about 200,000 a month then need to be created to maintain level unemployment rates? -- level unemployment rate question -- level unemployment rate? >> the employment rate, it is way down from where it has been historically low you would need about two hundred thousand jobs a year just to keep it at the current level, given the level 100,000 immigrants coming or more each month so you need a lot of jobs just for that absorption but if you assume the current level of integration and natural population increase the needed 200,000 jobs a month. >> well, anything else? >> i wanted to tell or ask you if you're pointed out that trend of younger people now working a potentially filling some of these jobs, i have made my first payment to the social security

when i was 12 years old in 1973 -- i have not missed a year ever since and i have been a full-time job since i was 16 years old. i do not see culturally where that is an option. i wish that it was. i mean, if you have any specific suggestions on how we buttress some of this work, i ensure -- i am sure we would love to have any suggestions for things as a matter of policy to look at to see how we create that sort of culture. outside of that, i did have a question on returning workers -- it will be my last question, mr. chair, i promise. one thing that i just ask. i am pleading ignorance here. but it seems to me that returning workers demonstrate the most reliable users of the h-2b program, which is to say they come, they work, they call

home, they return. and it is my understanding that some of these returning workers tend to make because their skill sets in the reliability or are such tend to make pretty good -- some of them get into supervisory positions -- have you done any work on that? >> i have only looked at what they are offering and jobs -- $12.50 -- $12.40 an hour. >> he were looking at a returning were coming back into the business enterprise they are accustomed to, they typically do the lay of the land, they can be supervisors or trainers for people and aide coming in for the first time. so, it just seems to me in some ways that these are people who are following the system. they are working on a seasonal basis. they have very clear patterns so they have very good connectivity because you got to work with the consulate. they do go back to their countries so i think that sometimes we get into

discussions about returning workers and it just seems to me that in some ways, they are the best, most reliable resources for using the program. i will let you have to final comment and i will want him i promise not to ask another question but i could be your own day. >> i actually think it is a smart way to increase the gap because we have heard about the abuses that if people are coming back, it must have been in good experience both for the worker and for the employer, so, and understanding is the better enforcement heard on the employers who use this program and play by the rules are painted with a broad push saying a they are these abuses and people are percent -- misrepresenting this and hand there are a lot of people he is a program and using it according to the roles way they are written if the workers are coming back, i think that is not only a reliable company must have been a two experience that was beneficial for both sides. >> again, i don't know how you

feel about it and i am not going to ask another question that i may follow up with another but it seems to me if somebody is coming back to want to go to this employer, maybe there are examples are outliers but it would be more likely that they would have had a better work experience -- mr. chair, i just want to thank you for your time and your focus on this issue and your leadership. i really do enjoy this committee -- >> thank you, thank you very much for your participation invaluable contributions. none of the obama administration's policies of deportation, anybody that comes into the country that overstays their visa is probably never going to be deported, is that right? >> enforcers -- yes, interior enforcement, the visa overstay are the person he is sets across the border, those people, as you have had testimony on this

before -- they have almost a zero chance of ever being deported. >> [indiscernible] secretary clinton said they should not be deported unless they have committed a violent crime. >> in a sense, not just a fact we need to keep in mind as we wrestle with these issues, so i would like to offer into the record statements that have been received from the flc. i hope the trade unions, labor international union of north america, unite here in addition to documents mr. cunningham provided to the subcommittee. if there is nothing else, we will stand adjourned. thank you very much. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2016] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org]

>> on newsmakers this weekend, our guest is the chair of the democratic caucus. he talks about legislative issues in congress. including the latest speculation of a potential running mate for hillary clinton. >> should sen. sanders: to pick? >> he has earned the right to be considered. clinton has earned the right to make that selection. the thing is that i have total faith that she will make a really good selection. i have confidence that her decisions are going to be great for america and it will come early.

what should be the role for senator sanders in the party? >> stake. influential. -- big. influential. awakened many folks. he has made young people believe. he has given democrats and opportunity to bring into our party many different faces. i thank him for all that he has done but i do not want to say all that he has done because he still has a lot to do. his voice will be very important. he has inspired people who have felt distanced from the electoral process and the government and our government needs people that want to be involved. do you think at the beginning of the primary season, it you would have ever said that

senator sanders has a big role to play in the democratic party? >> no. and this is america. that is the beauty. who else would've said that the republican party would be the party of donald trump. that entireatch the interview today at 10:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. our c-span campaign 2016 us continues its travels throughout the country to honor winners of this year's student cam competition. recently, our bus stopped at mom summary blair high school in silver spring, maryland. at montgomery blair high school in silver spring, maryland. students won $3000 for

their documentary on infrastructure spending. our bus also stopped at the wilson high school in washington, d.c. where two students received honorable mention for their videos. won 750e other students dollars for their winning videos on money, and politics and homelessness in the united states. a special thanks to comcast cable for helping to coordinate these visits in the community. you can view all of the winning documentaries on student cam.org. defense secretary ashton carter spoke about efforts to modernize the military and -- at summit ine one washington, d.c. allowing for additional airstrikes against the taliban

in afghanistan. this is one hour. >> please welcome the executive director of defense one and secretary carter ash cart -- and secretary of defense -- carter. [applause] >> ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for being here, and sticking around. it is a thrill and honor to have secretary carter here.

those of you at home or watching at home as well. a few points from his bio. he became secretary last year. before that we knew him in the pentagon for a while. he was the deputy secretary of defense. that is kind of like the coo. the guy that is supposed to know where things go and probably where things are buried. before that he was the under secretary of defense, which was the pentagon weapons buyer. before that, in the clinton administration he was the assistant secretary of defense for international security. the guy that has to go around the world. he has been through it all. the middle part gets more interesting and relevant for today where the secretary spends time in boston and other corporations working in the field of technology and innovation. that is what he brought with him back to the pentagon and part of what is at the core of what he is tried to do. he was a distinguished fellow at

stanford hoover institution. he was an advisor to goldman sachs. at harvard kennedy school he was the professor of science and international affairs. he was on the boards of a miter corporation. before that, longer ago, even longer ago, he had his degree from yale where he studied physics and medieval history, of course. before he gets medieval on all of us, will let him get to his speech and hear what he has to say. a round of applause for secretary of defense. [applause]

sec. carter: thank you, kevin, thank you for having me here and organizing and riding on the airplane with me. we do very much appreciate that. i want to thank all of you. all of you participantss from what is america wonderful, innovative, open technology community. it is one of our country's great strengths. i am committed to building -- at the pentagon and innovators throughout the nation. from the tech innovators in silicon valley, yes, but many other hubs and places around the country. i visited silicon valley four times as secretary of defense, but a week before last was with the submarine engineers in an electric boat in connecticut. it is very widespread. it is the pride of the country and the strength of the country, our entire technology base. as we continue building these bridges, i am also focused on promoting the great innovators