msnbc.ow being taken by good morning to all our american viewers. i'm afraid we have something of a shock for you which is that it we have left the european union. been bouncing to and from the city and that is the pound against the dollar and tells the story. we started yesterday evening making it clear that the market had called the referendum that , remain would remain the course. the probability of the vote to leave in the pound has fallen. as was predicted against the dollar.

-- 9%. time percent when was the last time we saw a fall like this? >> not my lifetime. it is historic. it is concerning. at the beginning of the day, , -- traders , youur pretty certain think it could fall further. trading in a time when to the getting started and people will come in this morning andsit down and analyze there will be some big money put to work in this could see considerable selling. panic?his a >> i think they not have been

10% fall could be called a panic. this is a big move. i've never seen ms. like this like this.ne moves >> the bank of england will be watching this. they will be thinking what the applications for inflation. the pound is falling. then prices are going to go up. inflation will rise. it will also look here at what is happening in the stock market. ,he current market position likely to open down 7.7%. hsbc, also in hong kong. >> down 11%.

nearly 10 billion pounds knocks off. >> there is a real price to be felt. thank you very much. thank you very much. nigel pharaoh has called it independence day. looks to be an expensive day indeed. let's, this is the state of play at this point if you're waking is what has been declared. we called it some time ago. as you can see, there were on the money. evening, a long

time ago, i spoke to andy was formally derek cameron's communications director, your former bosses finished. this is the end isn't it? i think as we speak, it down history, david cameron is pondering that. i suspect there are large number , urging him to stay. what weout to him that now his leadership. no time for an office. you need someone with experience and someone who understands the processes. i suspect that david cameron now pondering the possibility of stepping down. is it conceivable that he

will walk out and say he will stay for a bit and then leave. ? >> of course it is conceivable. stay.d be advising him to and to align himself with what i think is the national interest. we don't have much now, but we do note that in terms of the future, is that it is good to be chaotic. this is seismic. this will require the remaking of government in many substantial ways. that is a very complicated process and we need leadership. a strong argument is that david cameron is still the man to do that. there are some decisions that you can only make on your own and i think this is one of them. tom: you say it seismic and will take time.

we talked about a lot of it tonight. we would need another referendum and scotland. what do you think are the key points that need to be resolved? if you are sitting there try to help them, what would you focus on in the weeks ahead? >> is very difficult to get beyond tomorrow for him. what will he say to the country? there are some middle ground. there's a look, i will go but i will not put a date on the big i will do my duty and try to see the process underway. and there are other options. difficulties,te allegra elected on one. leadead campaign -- campaign -- leave campaign

requires a number of new laws to be passed with the opponent and house of commons that seems to be at odds with their view -- the view of the nation. we don't normally hear referendum. this is only the third national one in ever had. our rent some kind of constitutional standoff between the referendum and the people decision? >> they'll have to resolve themselves. this is huge. this is as thad a night for david cameron. >> saturday night for david cameron as the labour party. everything is up for grabs. tom: the tory party.

is that heion sacrificed a lot of people's jobs to get david cameron's. do you think he is damaged in this? >> i don't think it's all but in number 10. there are a large number of who aretive mps anti-boris. they don't like the idea of him being a shoo-in. that is another layer of complication. another layer of chaos. another strong recent for those who are now trying to convince give david cameron tuesday cameron tuesday, we don't need that extra layer of chaos. stay, we don't

need that extra layer of chaos. whether toplating come out and resign immediately or to not resign at all. the evolving stories, the impact of this decision on the united kingdom. our very existence as a country. suggested he wanted another for referendum and quickly and expects it to go down that road. he's in scotland for us. two the know whether you heard what he had to say on this program. what is your sense of scotland. >> the prime minister is

debate in his future. scotland will consider their future. she said the people of scotland has woken and spoken decisively. they have made it clear that they see their future in the eu. that flies in the face of what the people of the k have said. scotland is in conflict. voted togle group remain. by the scottish affairs.t for external does this mean an independent referendum is inevitable? >> we have a decisive vote. 16% to remain. -- 68% to remain. we have to listen to the voice.

thatptions have to believe -- have to be looked at. >> they have been talking about a second independent referendum. is this a trigger for that? so we can only see the u.k. coming out of europe, but scotland coming out of the u.k.. >> discusses people will express their views and it is very important that those people who voted against independence want to remain part of the european union, we accept their position and where they want to be. we will measure discussed people are respected. this?have a mandate for majority.dent , six weeks ago,

our views and mechanism, the need for another independent referendum. decisions have consequences. the u.k. has made a decision against the rest of the scottish people. david cameron top us that independence with scotland would be the mechanism. isn't this the politics of grievance? perhaps it is not about referendums, but people just don't look that. part of thing. a campaign.n a positive we are not fought policies and agreements.

we have a positive view of europe. statement have a later this morning. many questions to her about what happens next. tom: thank you, very much. during press conferences within the next few hours. back to mark and belfast. earlier,ked about this there are plenty in the union communities who voted to leave. we know that. they must be looking at what is happening in scotland. with very mixed views. what is the overall reaction as we wake up? here just ae cheers few moments ago. thecommunity is celebrating bigger boat than they expected to achieve.

voted to remain, 44% to leave. all of a sudden, but the situation, and doors box has box hasned -- pandora's been opened. he said, english folks have overturned the democratic will of the people of northern ireland. this was across community vote. english villagers are driving northern ireland as the european union. the british government has forfeited any mandate to represent the economic or political interest of the people in northern island. point for a border pulled.

extraordinary in , justnse that we have have him suggesting that we want another referendum. the first minister in scotland is given a press conference later. clearly, is an island did vote -- northern ireland did vote to remain. a broader pull in the nationalist community taking a bid to keep northern ireland and the eu. eu.n the >> this has been a lifelong aim to have some sort of border pol l. this is a prime opportunity to push for that. argument, northern

ireland is facing a very uncertain future given that we have that land border with the republic of ireland. there's all sorts of applications for what has happened. the movement of people between the two countries. the press on this issue, convincing what he was saying. vote.s a cross community wonderle, 56% of people tuesday. --percent wanted to stay wanted to leave. he wants to see that immediately. ok, that is an extra night development. extraordinary development.

uncertainty creeping in. uncertainty about the continuance of the united kingdom in the same form as a country. all things we will no doubt ponder as the days unfold. king, amy you can tell us how we got to. -- jane, a bu can tell us how we can tell-- maybe you us how we got to. here. >> let's look at coastal towns. areas that we thought would leave. love that support. let's look at areas where there were higher proportions of people who are retired and look at how well leave has done. done scotland.

the flick of his heirs of the country for their our highest proportion of the population who are white. most white, you see across the board votes for leave. and here is with the fewest graduates in those areas so being far more likely to vote leave. exception of cities and scotland. that is the story of what is behind the vote. those over 65. those areas where most of the population is white. expected,tors that we but not see the extent of this coming. where theserstand pockets are in relation to areas in the country, with focus on the national picture. what you can see there, we've been looking at that, you see the dense red.

that is the heartland. that, but look at middle england. we had there is the east midlands. the support for leave being incredibly strong. the west midlands where we see the dark red. really 13 leave just all across the board. inwe were good to plymouth>> a minute -- >> we will go to plymouth and a bit. us of have seen actually no doubt how this will end.

>> commitment of the national picture. , we have alexned sitting here suggesting he was another referendum in scotland and you look at that picture and whether he has a point or not, that is the hard thing to argue. you have her say she was a border poll. the reunification of island. -- island. -- ireland. it is true that they voted to remain. that with the evolving politics of the u.k.. alongstill split traditional lines where scotland has the unified story of a vote to remain. absolutely inc. total contrast

-- in total contrast. >> to plymouth. when i said we were getting an announcement, we are not going to do nothing,. >> more of an emotion. the sun rises over plymouth. sun, the smiles of these campaigners. what clinched this for your side? was it just about europe or something else, a mistrust with mainstream politics? >> the prime minister ran a campaign that was entirely negative. they cannot give any positive

recent to stay in. i think that was what swung it. that remaining is economically damaging to us. years,ermen here for 30 we can talk about the politics and economics, what will this mean to you in personal terms? >> looking good to see the catch fish rather than avoid them. >> how do you feel about that? >> i'm excited. we can move forward. we have been held back. i'm looking forward. jim french, sitting next to you, a lot of people wanted to leave from the industry. be a shop in the foot. sterling has been taking a

nosedive. >> could be. nationally0 members and the majority in favor of leaving. >> why did they? principally because of the amount of red tape and legislation that there is. representingdustry a co-op of owners. >what happens next? take for thisit decision to have a practical impact? >> i think there will be a huge wave of optimism during the coming days and then will have to sit down the administrators and start to work out with the

new regulations are going to look like a couple of years times. we will live at the same a galatians for at least two years. negotiate the waters with the european neighbors. >> i'm confident. we have a variety of fish, we have something to offer them and norwegians, greenland, have all negotiated with the european union. i'm confident we can do the same. >> do have a good take on this. you started your career and forcing eu fishing regulations. you changed over the us. what does it mean -- over the years. what does it mean? >> i would love to see some of the red tape untied the

fisherman can feel that they are free to do the job to feed our nation with good quality fish from our own waters. a lot of politics and economics to analyze. lots of personal stories. everything the day they are working in industry dominated by eu rules and many of them are bleeding that at last, the moment has come -- believing that at last, their moment has come. short time ago suggested that the prime minister would be pondering his future. we would be wondering when. happening? >> prompted by the exterminator turmoil and markets which has extended all the way to japan with trading suspended due to the scale.

important for the bank of england to make a statement about how it can attempt to stem , stocklapse of prices market, damage to banks. fully fledged financial crisis. to themake a statement promised or has spoken. i'm expecting but the promised or in the bank of england to make a statement before 7:00 this point. at the moment, we think they will make a statement at 11:00, but that is a long time. tom: separate statements. >> the prime minister will make a statement and then the governor. investors inof

operation to reach out beyond that. it a consensus that there what the prime minister tuesday, but lots of people tell me, why on earth should he? subjecold principle of -- the old principle of public service. people inside the conservative party don't think it is visible for him to last beyond christmas. >> he could announce that i know i had to stay but i will leave by christmas. >> he can't walk out now. frankly, there is so much financial instability. he has to give a commitment to throughoffice to see

will be a harry. of transition. confidentan be talking to signatories before. how could he be put in charge of reconfiguren to relationship is a project he is not in which is what he has demonstrated. one thing is for sure that that is catastrophic for his reputation. this is not how he wanted his political career to end if indeed one way or the other it does mark the end. media to expect social

be ablaze with this this morning and it is. upa lot of people have state walking this incredible story to develop. many are waking up to it and giving their reaction. take a third what we see. >> these are some of the images. the bigger they are, the more they are being used. the biggest is the crying with laughter. maybe people who are saying in your face of the people saying i can't believe what is going on. red alert, people go to other countries. let's take you through some of the reaction. this is often itv. celebrating. the exit, it is up to us on the winning side to allay the fears of those who voted

remain. every scottish council has -- queenshe between's tweet to remain in scotland. the next stop the breakup of the became an wishing, island divided david cameron gambled and failed,'s career is over. boris johnson, is he really up for it? >> last thing on the sidelines of the last week, boris' father, have you heard from him? >> i've been waiting at the door, watching him to come out. i am here as chairman of the environment, cochair environmentalist of your great i did not expect this result. i worked 40 years on environmental policy, but the people have spoken. and we jolly well have to make the best of it. it could actually be the

beginning of something really good for the environment, too. we have had, our organization has had, fantastic support. protection of birds, world wildlife fund, wildlife trust, vale cap together. now we have to say two things. how do we protect what we have on eu legislation? and secondly how do we continue to ensure that the u.k. really makes important contribution. >> the environment message can i get through, neither did the economy, people might be surprised to hear you have not contacted your son in the last hour. whatever happens next, a massive point in his political career. >> i will to you that my phone ran out of battery. that is what happened. and also, let us hope he is watching the tele, hello boris, you set it up. you did a very an brilliant job. >> you call it a career ending decision when you can offer brexit.

do you think he will be the next trimester? >> i eat my words. after the timing, who can tell? plenty of candidates, know well one doubt, one of my children the future. >> nina, thank you. boris johnson and david cameron have been rivals since the days of eton at oxford. david cameron made into downing street first. i saw boris johnson in early january, my meeting convinced that he was going to campaign for in. my mistake. a person came into the newsroom and said boris johnson is going for out, and the rest as they say is history. david cameron looks to be finish, one way or the other. if boris johnson the guy to take over? we are outside the famous house in london. richard, what is happening there? when are we going to see mr. johnson this morning, boris,

rather than his dad. said, we know he is inside. boris johnson watching the television with his adies. he may have wished his father was there. you can see a future amount of interest, people turning up and waiting to see a boris is would come out and speak. you remember that media scrum outside of his house when he first opted to join the leave campaign, similar scene this morning. is adies telling us he may wait for the prime minister to speak. to talk on the half of the vote leave campaign before he gives his view on the nights of elements. he has put his name, that list tory mps, but there were be plenty of questions for him about his leadership ambitions. he certainly seems to have jumped on the right bandwagon. whether people feel he is not a

man to perhaps lead the tory party and the country through the negotiations, as we come out of europe, that is another matter entirely. tom: richard, thank you very much. mr.ort time ago, we had campbell in the studio. but they have moved on since then. to put it mildly, he is now with julie. julie: he is indeed, in a quiet room. consoling some of the remain camp here. how are you feeling now? mr. campbell: it is a dreadful night, a terrible result, absolutely enormous, and i think that what the public -- i don't even think people who led this campaign really see the consequences of what is going to happen. julie: is there any conceivable way that david cameron stays? mr. campbell: i think there is, actually. i don't sense any sort of great

movement. i don't know what the labour party is calling for, they have their own issues they will have to look after. but the reality is that david cameron, wrongly in my view three years ago, promised referendum. he is now delivered. we had very different circumstances when he announced it. and he is now going to have to decide if he has the stomach i guess, and whether he can cope with the humiliation of having to go to europe, start negotiations for the withdrawal, with all of the incredible, patients. tom: very sorry to interrupt, julie and alastair there. giving a press conference, her reaction. [inaudible]

tom: ok, well, i'm sure what she had to say was fascinating. unfortunately we cannot really hear it. such is the nature of impromptu press conferences. it is worth just taking stock this point in the morning, considering the day ahead holds. we have seen from throughout the night, the markets are not taking the news well, there is every sign it will be a day of carnage. not just in the city of london but markets across the world, you heard a short time ago talking about the way that there has already been a market downturn in the japanese markets. we expect that to go on throughout the day. we will have to see what the long-term impact is. we have alex, suggesting he wants another referendum, and whether scotland should remain part of the u.k.. sturgeonxpect nicola to have a press conference. she will be talking about that.

i can just take this moment to say good night to julie. apparently, about to get kicked out of what is left of the remain party. i say good night, julie. good morning my be more appropriate. go.e: and on it will a very quiet morning behind us now, a change of atmosphere overnight. we have seen the ups and the downs, but now as the sun is fully up on the thames at festival hall, that is it. looking at the coming hours with some trepidation, no doubt, the most extraordinary night -- a night where we have seen a moment in history. tom? thank you very much indeed. it has been a long night. it will be a evil longer day ahead, as i suspect, we have nicola sturgeon coming out giving a press conference. we have trick business from belfast earlier, now requesting a poll in northern

ireland, northern ireland voting to remain, but going out of the european union. that is before we even get to the politics of westminster. the prime minister giving a statement and all the rest of it, very much to unravel. what is your sense about what the prime minister's day is going to involve? >> the first thing you will have to do, is he will have to coordinate government and bank having an action to l.a. any concerns -- to allay any concerns of risk. there will have to be a reassuring statement for the bank of england, behind the big institutions. because we are seeing colossal falls in the prices of assets that matter. tom: i does want to come in on this. you cover northern iraq and the rest of us, are you saying we are back ato 2207? 007.

>> we are back in two 2007-2208, and the fact we are seeing the price of asset management that affects our wealth. the difference between 2008 and where we are now, 2007-2008 and where we are now, banks are considerably stronger. in the bank of england is much more adept at providing the finance that they need to remain robust. but the scale of the global shock we are seeing right now is extremely significant. seennow, we have already sterling move from a peek only an hour ago, falling with morgan stanley, a huge american bank talking about going pretty rapidly down, $1.20. you almost never see movements of that magnitude.

the stock market, the u.k. stock market is expected to open somewhere between 8-10% lower. that is a very, very significant fall, which affects the wealth of everybody who has a pension. now let us be absolutely clear. crisis of financial assets can go down and up. and they will. and they will at some point recover. but financial assets do have an impact on economic activity. they have an impact on the ability of companies to raise finance. they have an effect on the ability of financial institutions, banks to provide finance. that then does have an impact on how much consumers and businesses are able to spend and invest. so this is real stuff.that not only looks dramatic but doesicular moment, have significant economic implications for how rich or poor we may be.

and right now we are looking a bit poorer. a very striking thing. just to be absolutely clear, because bond markets are absolutely the most important of the various financial markets in the world. they are the biggest markets. they are also the ones on the whole central banks take most seriously, certainly the big picture. and economists are saying bond markets will today rise in a way that prices and the prospect of a british recession. tom: ok, let us go to chris. robert said we are expecting to hear from the prime minister around 7:00. and chris is there. chris: the morning, tom. it is quite hard to get information, as you can well imagine this morning. they are all up. we know that much. and they're all in meetings , right now. what i can tell you, what i can hear, the people who do david

cameron's sound are busy rigging up for his statement, which we are expecting before 7:00. clearly he will make a statement, we always expect them to do such a thing, and he is to do it in these circumstances before the markets open. the communication lines between downing street, the treasury and the bank of england in the city, will have an open all night. but we will be hearing from the prime minister possibly within the next hour. ris, thank you very much very much indeed. this is the state of play in the morning. if you're just waking up, this is the picture. we are leaving the european union. that is the bottom line. the state of play, remain as 42%. a lot of newspapers, rather like us, have been up all night. we have front pages and already. this is the daily mail, a picture of nigel farrage, we help he certainly was not

underplaying his triumph. and there is a picture him on the front page. take a look at the mirror,. as well great minds think alike, you might say. and there is little doubt that that is the truth. we are out. i am joined by jenni russell, columnist from the times. you have just written a very long and detailed and go to prime minister profile, not your friend i have to say, but possibly your last. what do you sense will be in his mind as he wakes up this morning and ponders his future? jenny: when i asked him about this repeatedly, whether he can stay on if there was a vote to leave, the interesting thing is that he was absolutely categorically that he would and he should, and he had a democratic mandate tuesday. i think that is politically almost impossible, because there are so many people who are against the prime minister in his own party.

they either detest him because of europe, or they fear they were not reported, he is a posh tory and they are not. when i asked him about the whole referendum business, he said again and again this is not a verdict on me, this is a verdict on the question of your my response ability was just to deliver a referendum. i promise the country. i will listen. and when they give me the a stunningwon victory only a year ago, what he said to me, and that gets in the democratic mandate to stay in power. if the country once a brexit, to give me the responsibility of negotiating that on their behalf, in good faith. i think he is sitting there seeking that he can and should be allowed to negotiate brexit. now whether his party will let him do it, whether the press will let him do that, is quite another matter. tom: i think everyone is just coming to terms with what happened, trying to think through what it means. evening, letthis

us just recap where we are. alexanderborder poll, saying he wants referendum in scotland, we will hear from nicola sturgeon in a minute, and we have the markets crashing. any regrets to leave? or are you still happy that you are waiting? toby: we have reclaimed our democratic rights, and we have the courage to do that in spite of projected fear. i agree with jenni. i do not think that david cameron will resign. i think that, you know, we are facing a pivotal moment in british history. there is currently a vacuum at the heart of the british government. we do not know yet whether david cameron is going to stay or go, and we will not know until he makes a statement. but the leaders of the leave campaign, boris johnson, michael gove, are not saying anything. by boris not saying anything, they will not take the

initiative, we are not going to seize power in this vacuum, we are going to wait and let you take the initiative. i think if you are in politics at the level that david cameron is, i think, at a moment like this, even though staying on is fraught with all kinds of perils, at the same time, you feel the hand of history on your shoulder. what he does in the next few hours will critically affect the history of this country. he doesn't have to just calm the market. history ashore -- he has to reassure eu nationals that they will not be sent home. he has to reassure that even the project fear was voted leave, get farage, he will not be in charge. is ina man he is, why he politics, he is not going to shirk that responsibility. this is an opportunity to shape the future of the country, and

away he has not had before. that is why people get into politics, so they can affect history. tom: moving on from david cameron, a little while ago, pandora's box could be opened. do you worry? i slightly wonder, often in the media, we sort of campaign for something, and we sometimes think, well i wonder if they actually get it will they wanted? it? what kind of country do you think we are waking up to? are you worried about things beyond the question of unity of u.k. as a whole? jeni: i think we are going to areas.living in rural toby talking about project fear, as if it was some kind of joke. we just saw a front page of the paper, thing project fear failed, and the pound pledges. as of the wordings were not

fierce enough. i think the consequences are going to be acidly terrifying. and i would not at all surprised if johnson and company, they won this referendum on the basis of making fantastical promises that they can have prosperous lives if they voted leave. of course those claims are fantasy, like the claims we would get 350 million pounds back from the eu. we never pay that money so we cannot get it back. making all those people who think that whatever the problems in their lives, immigration, low wages, no housing, pressures on schools are going to be solved, they're not going to be. of course they like to stand back and let david cameron deal with all of the immense problems. tobm: she has a point. boris does not want him now. he said he would apologize if we enter a recession. apologizing, quite

soon. thatthe reason, i am sure, they have ceded the initiative in this moment to the prime minister is because they don't particularly want to be in charge at this particular moment. but i do think that jenni is exaggerating. when you said earlier that it is absolutely sovereign now we will leave the european union, i don't think it is absolutely certain. i have always thought, like boris said at the beginning of the campaign, that we do vote leave, the leaders of the u.k. will come back with a better offer. access to single markets. repatriate some power. jenni, thanks for coming. it is close to the end of our program. her microphone was not good.we found a microphone. here is what he had to say. >> i think democracy works.

and now we will take back control over a whole area of democracy, but also renewing some of those focuses. because i think all of the political leaders, we have to reflect on whether they have accurately stayed. desireple's attitude and on how the government works. tom: apparently, she gave some of her speech in german, is to make sure the message got through to berlin. there you are. let us go to rohit. we have come through the course of the evening, a happier group of people behind you. i am imagining that they cannot really have had a better night. rohit: yeah, tom, certainly venting a bit. a lot, actually. the party is pretty much over. but in a sense, it is only just beginning. a few hours ago, not even the

most optimistic campaigners at this party were predicting anything like this sort of victory that we are now projecting for the leave campaign. and it is wrong to see their campaign in their words narrowly, in terms of an attack on brussels. they say it is much wider than that, an attack against the middle east, against the political climate, against london versus many working-class communities across the u.k. it is an attack by some of the campaigners, they feel it is against the celebrity endorsements, for example. and they now believe that this wave that they think they have set in train now is only just beginning. tom: rohit, thank very much. the grass looked little bit worse, not anticipating that this trip over his would be any

different. joel, no sleep tonight. don't expect any tomorrow either. it is going to be a very busy day for you and everyone around you. and i can see the grass over your shoulder. joel: yeah, you can. the pound, the second the investors that a sense of which way the vote was heading, the againstnt into a crash the dollar. it is currently down 10%. we have seen exactly the sort of wild swings in the financial markets that were widely derided by the leave campaigners in the run-up to the referendum. project fear, now fact, and they will have economic consequences. well, depending on where prices settle. we should say that. there is mayhem, markets cannot quite work it out. not just for britain's economy,

but for all sorts of economies around the world to share prices in japanese benefactors, toyota, honda, down sharply in age overnight. they manufacture obviously here in the u.k. but markets cannot work out what to percent fall in the value of sterling is going to do to profit/ , hsbc has seen shares fall by 11%. they give you a sense of what barclays, bank of scotland can expect, when they opened here in london in the next couple of hours. in fact we are expecting, this with a chart tells you, ftse to open about 9% down. the last time we saw that was around 2008, around the time the financial crisis with lehman's. the world is about to unravel, getting into a dangerous place, but it does mean that markets cannot make sense of this. and there is way to be a period of uncertainty. tom: joel, thank you very much.

let's go back to james and brussels. i have asked you already what the reaction is, but one thing we have not talked about for a few hours is what the impact on the rest of europe is like the to be? we talked earlier about whether like,ould fuel, if you the rising tide of euro skepticism, the future of the european union itself was in question? what is your feeling as we wake up this morning. >> we've already had a demand from the freedom party for a referendum in the netherlands next. it is a founding principle of this place, brussels, the european union, the progress is only in a forward direction. it is irreversible. the target is ever closer. now we have a situation in which not just a small country, but a big country, a big member, has said with respect we disagree. we are headed back the other way. how do they respond to that?

do they try to build the wall around the other 27, shorre it up, cast britain out and economic darkness as they will see it. no, we say we know w respect the agreement and accommodations. that has obvious danger, however reasonable in a sound, and that one of the things that has kept the european union together is a fear among the population of the unknown. of your of stepping out and doing something different. well, if actually britain proves the unknown is just fine, will others follow? these are questions they will ask themselves. they don't of the next step because they don't have a magic finger. but this is an irreversible progress, we are out whether we reach an agreement were not. that may be is going to happen this week, could happen at a summit in july, maybe they will

toll -- but either way, it is a bumpy road. we are talking about it matched against the one coming here. tom: james and brussels, thank you very much indeed. we are coming to the end of this program. we are not where we started. that is for sure. just one of those nights when you feel you have lived through a piece of history. maybe do some brief historical context, i don't know how many you have been through? >> interesting, from the various results into rolled her, we had a suspicion that remain would not do as well as it should do to win. and the result from newcastle was compounded, everywhere then came in, and whether you take the places that voted for a like northern ireland, scotland, london, all the rest of england, like wale, all of them voted by leave for bigger margins that

anyone could have imagined beard with the highest turnout since 1992, they have added up to a neville outcomes that we saw. tom: jane, people very disillusioned. immigration and broader? jane: i have to wonder how much the recession, but also you know these worries about turkey, the sort of combination of immigration, symbolic of fears of terrorism, threat of economic hardship, all of that funneled into the sense of disillusionment with mainstream politics. just kind of creating this, you know, sense that mainstream politicians did not speak to the people in the country that have spoken now. worried are, how you about the future of the u.k. as a unified whole? allegra: scotland, i am not sure the referendum would be won that easily. but away from scotland, i just think it is a number, 75% of

29-year-olds voted to remain. i am worried about huge groups that do not talk to each other anymore. >> we are a divided nation. tom: i'm what to try and say something positive and optimistic. >> what is the nearest analogy that i can think for this political decision? it is the election of margaret thatcher in 1979, which was a complete break of the consensus in politics at that time. at that time she imposed economic policy which to provide a tremendous shock to the country, unemployment went up, lots of industry close down. but actually ultimately, a newme, we rebuilt under model and it did bring in eventually after years of hardship and division between different important groups in the country, and built a more prosperous system. if this is like that, we are in for some considerable time of hardship and turmoil. but we would emerge at the end

rebuilt. and maybe this is one of those moments where we have to remake ourselves. let us be under no illusion, this is a major historic shock to the nation. tom: it certainly is. let us be clear. we have many apocalyptic warnings all the way through the campaign. we are told we would be in a recession, and very possibly worse, if we chose to leave. we were urged to step back from the brink. we did not. we took the leap. a giant step forward or a jump into the unknown, take your pick. that is where we are this one. as a first light of morning breaks, the first light, the son on the white cliffs of dover shines on britain, independent of europe for the first time in four decades. as david cameron weitzen downing street, he knows he is prime minister of a very united kingdom that is different, considering for how much longer he can stay in the job as we

have discussed a lot this morning. itv's coverage is up. we continue with our colleagues on good morning europe. we will be a very good morning to you. has votedted kingdom to leave the european union. as reports came in, the british pound fell to its lowest in decades. you're the watching live u.k. vote coverage. we will continue to bring you more about the u.k. referendum later on the c-span network. >> coming up on c-span, a hearing on wildfire prevention and forest management. efforts toing on combat isis online. after that, remarks by sheryl sandberg facebook chief operating officer.

[captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2016] [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] morning, rollcall senior editor discusses the sit in on the house floor by house democrats calling for a vote on new gun legislation. we examine thursday's high-profile decisions from the supreme court. be sure to watch c-span's washington journal beginning live at 7:00 eastern. >> friday, house speaker paul ryan and house ways in means committee chair unveiled the gop tax proposal. you can see it live starting at 10:00 a.m. eastern here on c-span. >> president obama is in california on friday to deliver remarks and participate in a panel discussion with facebook's mark zuckerberg.

it is part of the global entrepreneurship summit. you can see it in live starting at 1:45 here on c-span. >> with the political primary season over, c-span tro to the white house takes you to this summer's political convention. watch the republican national convention starting july 18 with live coverage from cleveland. into thel go convention, i think we will go in so strong. wants the democratic national convention starting july 25 with live coverage from philadelphia. >> let's go forward, let's win the nomination. in july let's return to a unified party. >> then we take our fight for andal, economic, racial, environmental justice to philadelphia, pennsylvania. >> every minute of the

republican and democratic parties national convention on c-span, c-span radio, and c-span.org. next, a hearing on wildfire prevention and forest management. agriculture and interior department officials testify before the senate energy and natural resources committee. this is two hours and 10 minutes. >> good morning, the committee will come to order. we are meeting to receive testimony on a legislative discussion draft entitled wildfire budget response act. i want to thank those that joins we released this draft on may 25. along with ranking members senator cantwell and senator wyden. you have been working this issue for a very long time.

a good, strong team with this draft. we have taken public comment on it. we are taking the next step today. we recognize we face some serious challenges and an area that needs to be addressed. people across the country are realizing that wildfires are a growing crisis. we know in alaska the devastation that wildfires bring to our state but half of the 10 million acres that burned last year were in alaska. we've already seen over 200 fires this season alone. so, there is a recognition that it is a real and growing problem. resolving it requires a comprehensive approach that addresses both wildfire funding and forest management. we need to do both oat once -- at once. we know it is not just a budgeting problem it is also a

management problem. i work to provide temporary fixes to ensure our firefighters have the resources that they need. added $1.6 billion to wildfire suppression to last year's on the bus. it was above the average cost enough to prevent fire borrowing this year. last year's bill also included targeted increases in hazardous reduction that will help mitigate wildfire hazards and keep our forests going. it is now closer to two weeks ago. for the next fiscal year. that includes full funding as managementnfords efforts. i am proud of that work. i am the first to say that our yearly appropriations bills are

just a temporary solution. they get us from one year to the next. whatger-term solution is we have in front of us today. it includes a fiscally responsible fixed to permanently end the destructive practice of borrowing. this is where agencies raid on fire programs to pay for firefighting. this requires congress to provide resources to the agencies up front. that is enough to cover 100% of the average annual cost of firefighting over the last 10 years. it allows a limited cap adjustment in those truly catastrophic fire years. we allow the agencies to invest leftover funds and prevention projects. e borrowing is something members on and off the committee have called for.

this is not just a western issue for this week, senator schumer complained that it takes federal dollars a way from efforts to rer,t the emerald ash bo and other invasive species. fire borrowing has significant and lasting impact across the entire forest service, not to mention the native impact on local businesses and economies. yet despite the widespread agreements that we need to end this unsustainable practice, the administration is not yet willing to embrace our bipartisan proposal to do just that. instead, it insists that congress should fund just 70% of the 10 year average of suppression costs. a proposed cap adjustment would prefer the rest as well as any cost above the 10 year average. ideaess has rejected this every year that it has been proposed. the administration claims that it will use the different between 70% and 100% for forest

restoration to get ahead of the problem. budget requeste for the forest service simply does not bear this out. using the 70%-30% split it would 273 million of the budget next year. those accounts are flat. it did not seek to increase forest health management on federal lands. that request is actually down. both national forest system budget and the forest service overall budgets are down. this just doesn't comport with the reality. you can begin to see why wildfires are also a management problem. helping the resilient forests are fire resistant forces. safety,ng firefighter

restoring the help of our forests, active management is met witheoften insurmountable obstacles. difficultnt costs and regulatory requirements are impeding our ability to implement treatments at the scales that wildfires are occurring. our discussion draft would take steps to reduce these hurdles without abandoning important environmental protections. n existing authorities. focus that environmental reviews by limiting the number of alternatives that need to be analyzed for collaboratively to let the -- developed projects. new emergencys a environmental assessment. that is highly susceptible to burning in order to reduce the risk of the large, destructive and expensive wildfires that of

becoming the norm. addressing the management problem would not be complete without attention to our nations largest national forest. that is in southeast alaska. i think we recognize there is not always going to be agreement. i hope we can agree that transition to a program focused on predominantly young votes needs to be real, and not just something that looks good on paper. the forest service needs to do what is right and undertake what the advisory committee called for in its recommendation. it called for a comprehensive inventory to address the uncertainties that exist in the supply, volume, and timing of the available of young growth to support a transition. january of this year, it reiterated the importance of an inventory. they called it the number one priority investment. modeling is not good enough for

a clear picture of when it will coeme online. it will only help if it is backed by strong science and comprehensive data. the point of our provision is thato delay the transition is already underway. it is to allow for meaningful inventories to take place before the land plan is amended. the last thing i want to emphasis on our federal engagement with local fire agencies and other partners. this is critical to mitigate wildfires.nage the investment the authorized help communities become fire adapted which is an important piece of the solution to escalating suppression costs in the urban interface. i would like to close by thanking my colleagues for working with us on this discussion draft. i intend to advance its to the senate floor as soon as

possible. i hope members of our committee recognize what is at stake here. >> thank you for having this hearing this morning. i think this is a culmination this morning of a lot of hard work. years, if you include the work by our predecessors probably two or three more years before that. colleagues arer both here. because of the roles they have played on this issue. i could start with the some statistics. the worst fire seasons in the last two years, 10 million acres burned, 4000 houses destroyed, sad fact of firefighter fatalities. we will hear from someone from our state will tell us in more detail about all of that. i appreciate him being on the second panel.

it would like to spend some time talking about what i think we should do to reduce the risk and the intensity and cost. s that these seasons, these fire seasons are both longer and hotter. degree increase in temperature change results in a doubling of firefighter costs, 25% increases in the number of wildland fires. the numberncrease in of acres burned. just one degree temperature change makes our fire problems even more complex. must address we the root cause of the problems with fire risk in budgeting. if this is the new normal we need better strategies to deal with the problem. i am glad that the undersecretary is here to talk of the strategies. i don't think the temperature change is going to stop.

tohink we will have continue risk. our efforts to to be guided by scientists. that is telling us we need our ats that will make risk forests more resilience to fires. it will keep our firefighter safer and protect our western communities from the impact of wildfires which we have seen has a huge economic impact. they're losing over $2 billion of timber revenue last year alone. later the director of cal fire joining us on the second panel. and a chief testimony discusses the need to treat the fuel that has built up in our national forests. i think it is a key provision that any western senator should be interested in. as part of this, what i say is a ,ew strategy for firefighting

they need the tools to complete the job. we need to be proactive in reducing fire risks. this contained in number of tools for doing that. i want to talk about this in specifics. that section directs the agencies to focus their efforts that will take place in areas most at risk. we have pointed out a couple of charts that hopefully we can show to people. that this science is built upon. rankedests service has the different part of the basedal serve -- forest on fire risks. most are in the red areas. the next chart is from a former head of fire from the forest service who published in academic papers. connection that we've been experiencing. science is telling us that restoring the health to the pundit rosa pined for it -- theerosa pine forest is

most effective way to deal with this issue. after merging these maps we have identified more than 2 million acres we want the forest service to place a priority on. thee are simultaneously most at risk for fire, the place that projects of the largest fuel, and thecing places less supported by the science and the public. we would provide the tools to the agency such as long-term contracts to individual new bills. we would be securing more sustainable buildings. these tools help us get this work done. it will help us in a much more proactive discussion. we need to do reduction. doesmenting this program change the fire risk. the science are showing that it

can happen. there is video on teh web -- the web showing that it can be done. toecommend anyone to want look at that under the carpenter road fire. they actually installed cameras in the pine forest where the fire burned through. the video shows compelling evidence that the value of this pilot could have to land. more broadly, of course, there are other provisions that i think we also need to implement. egree, with one d temperature change driving the change, scientists a this investment reduces the size of the fires. i think that is what we need to try to target. other provisions include community preparedness, $6

million would be raced to help at risk communities. i know my colleagues from the west understand this. communities are at risk. they need help, and support. they need to make sure that small communities who are on the front lines of fighting these fires have some immediate capital ready to do what we think it's a hasty response. we also have a section on new technology. refers to this technology as the holy grail of firefighting. for the first time ever, incident managers could see in real time the location of the fire and their crews. insured he will work together ensuring that thecies and all firefighting equipment can do wonders to help engage in what by variousfined

entities as hasty response. last year as i travel to the state thinking i was going to be reviewing the previous year's fire season, we know a huge new fire season opened up. community after community, and later hearings, this issue could not have been clearer from my constituents. together a cooperative so that those on the front lines that can do immediately's on don't all of a sudden get stopped at a line that says national forest service. muche it out, there is so capacity were people want to help and courtney. i know we can do it. in community came together the aftermath. the federal government, county government, and local government worked diligently to find those

individuals impacted by the devastating landslide. i am sure we can do the same in fighting over fires. the discussion also in the communication infrastructure remains functioning during wildfire season. again, this was an issue where activated, have been or are trying to be activated medicationdband can exists. no one can get access until the emergency is declared. that is like filing paperwork and sending it away for a month of deliberation. at that time they're still trying to communicate. i amve to come up with -- ready to declare fire borrowing in the great debate. as tonator is agnostic how we solve it. i have some principles in general. first, we cannot rob peter to pay paul.

the forest service needs the amount of money to fight the fires, and the money dedicated to do fuel reduction. we have to produce a draft that gives them the ability to do both. on the implementation of the pine forest, washington state invested $18 million in 2014 to rebuild salmon habitats but most of it was burned up in 2015. so, we need to have dedicated funds to protect our investments if we were there with the fire problems. we have to have both dedicated funds to fuel reduction and fighting the fires. today, firefighting constitutes 50% of the forest service budget. to 67% over the next 10 years for that that means over $700 million less for those non-fire accounts if we try to solve it this way. i hope we will all work together. i look forward to undersecretary

bonnie's comments on this. we have had a shift in temperature that the man's a new response -- and demands a new response. ofhave received a number e-mails on this. they want more things included in the bill. i personally want a more robust controlled burn section. this is a very complex issue. i know many of my constituents do not want to see smoke in their communities. we understand that. trying to do prescribed burnings in the dry and hot the months of august is the wrong idea. e flexibility to do it in the wetter months in the pacific northwest. not when the fuel is so built up and conditions are so dry. we need to work together on that. they want provisions removed, sections tovided

make more useful. to i know is that we have come together to solve this issue. my colleagues here today who have been working on this issue for several years and so many impacted communities, i would like to submit also this chart that would show where the board fee of potential pine forest reductions would come from by the state. this is not something a come to easily. we have beenoute going in the aftermath of the fire, we have to the federal government will spend between $2 billion and $3 billion a year on

fighting fires because of the increase in risk, we need to do something. i think this is a suggestion worth considering. thank you. chair murkowski: thank you, senator cantwell. level of detail there. we will now turn to our first panelists. we have two panelists this morning. i know there was much to be put on the table. we will proceed immediately to it. the first panel they're joined by mr. robert bonnie who is the undersecretary in the u.s. department of agriculture as well as mr. brian rice was the director from the office of wildland fire. gentlemen, welcome to the committee. i must tell you i was disappointed that we did not receive your testimony until at least 11:00 last night. for colleagues that were quite anxious to see the direction in the comments, cannot be able to receive them and tell early this

morning. you can do better. -- i hate to start the meaning with an admonishment. i think the committee deserves a respect from the administration in terms of your statements. if that debt with that, if you would succeed. mr. bonnie: thank you members of the committee for having me here today. more importantly, thank you for scheduling this under a show of such vital importance posted everything the forest service does is be negatively impacted because of the ever-growing proportion of the agency's budget spent fighting fire. two decades ago this than 16 of the budget on fire. today it routinely spends more than half of the budget on firefighting. has dropped 39% since 1998. we have fewer staff to provide recreation and manage wildlife

habitats. investing in forest restoration is critical to addressing the wildfire threat. the administration at increased number of acres restored through thinning and prescribed fire. by investing in collaboration, timber increased production by 20 percent. over the long term, the agency can't sustain these gains. unless congress fixes the fire budget. the good news is, there is broad agreement among stakeholders. republicans and democrats agreed this needs to be fixed. while fires may be thought of as a western problem, it is felt everywhere. east, west, north, and south. this requires doing two things. the agency exhausts fire suppression budget as it does in most years it doesn't have to transfer dollars from non-fire programs.

while congress typically reimburses the agency for the transferred funds, it nonetheless disrupts the ability to get work done. growthond problem, the of fire suppression expenditures in the erosion of the budget is far more debilitating to the agency than fire borrowing. let me explain. the forest service must fund based on the average suppression expenditures over the previous 10 years. that the costs of firefighting are rising dramatically due to increased fire seasons and more into the wildlife and urban interface. so, we must set aside more for firefighting first of the forest service is transferred more than $100 million from non-fire programs to firefighting. that money was in the borrowed. as long as fire costs keep rising, that money is permanently moved out of our non-fire programs. so if we want to reduce the

threat of catastrophic fire we have to solve the second problem. you want to increase recreational access to fix our backlog and trails. if you want to address the 66 million dead trees in california we have to solve this problem. the bipartisan wildfire disaster funding solves both problems by allowing the forest service to when it'saster funds been 70% of its budget. this prevents fire transfers and allows the agency to invest additional resources. there are other ways congress could address this issue as well by providing additional capacity for that you could cap the budget at 100% of 2015 levels and take the additional money that congress is investing in firefighting and devoted to restoration or recreation. with the company had to budget, the administration to support efforts to provide the agency with additional force management

tools to increase the pace and scale of restoration. such provision shall be built on collaboration among stakeholders and have strong environmental safeguards. the provisions congress passed and the 2014 farm bill struck the right balance. it wasmonstrated possible to pass legislation with that support. finally, let me address the tongass national forest. it is been mired in controversy. there is been collaboration with the advisory committee to find a path forward that sustains the timber industry while transitioning away from old-growth timber harvests. we have proposed a lit -- provisions delaying the amendment. we look forward to working with this committee and others to put together a legislative package that fixes the fire budget and provides balanced tools. thank you and i'm happy to answer any questions. chair murkowski: thank you.

mr. rice, welcome. chairman good morning, and ranking member and members of the committee. thank you for the opportunity to come here today and provide testimony from the department of the interior budgeting response and forest management act of 2016. for an introduction, the department of the interior works with the bureaus within the department that have fire to provideities oversight focusing on budgets and policies that affects nearly 500 million acres across the department of the interior's. we work closely with other and ouragencies external partners as well as organizations to provide strategic leadership support as well focusing on the tenants of cohesive strategy. we also have implementation of

order 3336. the department would like to express thanks to our partners in congress for support from the wildland fire resilient landscapes program. that continued support is a critical step forward as we recently received over 75 pre-proposals for this next year ly $74 million of requests. this is on the heels of the 2015 fire season being the costliest on record. it earned the most acres since the recorded since 1960. as in past fire seasons, the risk we are seeing this season will be highly dependent upon weather and other human factors. we are seeing impacts from climate change, drought, otherve species, and factors. they are creating a landscape for more susceptibility to

devastating wildfire. with an ever-expanding urban interface, the inherent complexities associated with the need for partnerships has continued to grow. we continue to make proactive investment in fuels management. those landscape activities across the landscape will better address the impact of wildfires on the communities. the resilient landscape activity is coordinated with and supported by those resource management programs within the bureaus of the department of the interior. the bureau of indian affairs as well, those programs are working in concert with tribes, states, and other organizations that are involved. would like toe i highlight, the department is showing leadership in providing training in job opportunities for our veterans coming back.

we wish -- they wish to continue their service in natural res ources. we are taking pride in as many women coming back to serve. land management has provided 2ildfire firefighter 1 and training for over 400 veteran volunteers over the last year. ,n regards to the draft bill the department continues an approach to fixing the fire funding. it has transferred and recognizes catastrophic fire is a natural disaster and ensures our efforts to suppress those does not diminish our efforts to create more resilient landscapes. the department opposes section 201 in title ii as currently written. it is looking forward to working with the committee to find language that identify standards of overallt the goals

safety. the department is also leading many activities focusing on uas and systems that provide ,irefighter and public safety and ensuring operations continue on. we have examples from 2014 in 20 most recently human 2016 on the north fire in new mexico of the have uas systems providing real-time mapping capabilities, as well as infrared video. andegards to the last title focusing on some other land management activities, the department is focused on strong environmental safeguards. it further supports increased resilience across the bureaus. in closing, the department works with the federal statement and local partners and lastly we will continue to improve the

management's while importantly upholding our responsibilities of this concludes my statement i would be happy to answer any questions. we begin with a run of questions. i want to start with you, mr. bonnie, with the inventory. i am disturbed by the statement in your written testimony. you kind of glossed over it this morning. you make a statement that says that the requirement for ry totory would be "contra the recommendations of the tongass advisory committee." thatreally stunned by level of a statement. when you look to for services on website and talk about it tongass inventory, on your

website, you say and inventory is needed to address the uncertainties. the planned amendment needs to have credible information to accurately predict the timing. this can only be obtained by comprehensive stands of inventory. secretaryent from the , they emphasized the transition must take place in a way that preserves the viable timber industry. it itself has said there are a number of investments the need to be made. the number one priority investment is a forest inventory. modeling is not good enough for a clear picture of when growth, online during the next 15 year period. for you to say this is contrary

to the recommendations of the ch does not comport with what it has said, and said clearly. also, you have that on your own website. what is up? mr. bonnie: so, we are carrying out an inventory right now. that is in parallel with what they recommended in their final report. inventoryof the you're talking about is unnecessary for us to arrive at a decision on the amendment. one hasrkowski: no decided that is unnecessary to arrive at that. we bonnie: so, the inventory are carrying out will give us information allowing us to do projects. we have the information we need right now to do a broad plan amendment. it is helpful to allow us to plan sales. chair murkowski: the inventory has been recognized as necessary to provide for that level of

for the plan. the forest service recognizes it. knowuggested that we enough now that we can just move forward with the plan, belies the concern from everyone, saying we need to understand where we are in the growth stage in terms of the availability. we recognize that the inventory in the tongass is tough because it is a tough area. in order to have a plan that is everyonereality, recognizes we need to understand what we are dealing with. are you going against the recommendation? mr. bonnie: no, i think you are in line with the recommendation. they were very concerned about implementation. they asked us to move forward with the inventory we are doing now. we're doing that in partnership with the state. i think we are in keeping with what that is asked -- has asked.

chair murkowski: your words are, the requirement to inventory -- allll use your statement -- acres on the tongass before issuing a record decision will cause an unnecessary delay. that would be contrary to the advisory committee. i would take you back to the statement itself on january 21 that says the number one priority investment is a forest inventory. modeling is not good enough for a clear picture of when young growth will come online during the next 15 years. know the reason we have included this requirement within this draft legislation is to follow whathe intent, as well as for a service has been saying

throughout this discussion. we need to understand what we have in terms of available young growth. we can make sure, to use the secretary's words, we preserve a fireball timber industry that provides jobs and opportunities to the resident of southeast. i will turn to sen. cantwell n ow. cantwell: thank you for your testimony this morning. issueed to go over this of fuel reduction. it is so important to so many of us. fuel reductiont by limiting the considerations is one thing that hits at me. your testimony for the administration talked about that. mr. bonnie: what we said all along is that with a

comprehensive fix we're happy to look at provisions to look at forest management. those provisions need to have strong environmental safeguards. they need to be based on collaborative. we think that, those two things can be really important in moving forward with those types of tools. so, any provisions we would look be imported.l we recognize the need to get more work done. critical to that is thinking about larger landscapes, as you talked about. also working in collaboration so that we can reduce risk. cantwell: this language would be problematic if it stays in the draft? mr. bonnie: what we are talking about, we would suggest making sure that it has strong environmental safeguards. it needs to be discretionary,

not mandatory. the language right now is mandatory. i think that is problematic. well: on the pilot in general, what are your thoughts as a fuel reduction tool? mr. bonnie: you are right about thinking of large landscaped and how we get fire back into these ecosystems. i think that is important. the tie to collaboration is important. we are anxiousf to work with you on it. there are questions we have and concerned we have. we are eager to work with you. >> on reducing risk by doing some fuel reduction, what are your thoughts? thank you for the question. projects,f the specifically the pilot you're referring to, the department in many instances will defer to usda to address many of these issues. it is focused on forest service

lands. the overriding themes, as you pointed out, of ensuring environmental safeguards and strong ones are in place. further developing landscape resilience is important. antwell: there is no secret here. this is about whether we can all get comfortable with the response to what is happening. can we all agree? i am hearing from scientists in my state, and others, saying these pine forests will burn down. and they will burn down, we don't get to keep them. i can get them managed. i can get the fuel reduced. i can make sure the mills stay open. i can give them long-term contracts. they can continue to process. to me, that is a win, win win situation.

i would rather have some of it reduced and save the federal government dollars. we can secure our communities. they can be proud of the management of our timber products. to me, i guess this is a question of whether your agencies agree with these environmental -- what has implemented here -- presented the forest. over the next decade if a temperature increase is a hazard we facing. do either of you have a comment about that? mr. bonnie: there is no question we have to get more restoration done. we've taken fire out, that asbined with climate change he spoke about is changing the nature of the fires we see now. it is making them more destructive, and larger. restoration is a key to reducing the severity of those fires. ntwell: thank you, madam chair.

put forward this draft. this is tireless work. i like the bipartisan spirit that made this possible. secretary bonnie, good to see you again. i am dismayed we had breaking news coming out of montana. interferes -- the to -- twitter sphere. iny are closing two mills columbia falls, montana the summer. these are good paying jobs. on top of another 100 job cuts previously announced, the company said they have been running at low capacity because of an ongoing shortage of logs in the region. i want to put the rest this nonsense i hear from folks who are opposed to force management saying the reason that mills are closing is because of lack of demand. that is false.

the issue is lack of logs. some of our mills today in montana are getting logs over 500 miles away. we go to other states to get logs. we go to other countries. we go to canada to get logs. it has to end. it saves our forests. it could also save these jobs. i want to draw your attention to the forest that surrounds much of columbia falls. are the suitable for the forest. if you look at the red circle, that is where the operation is at. the worries of this coming. we knew that the timber had been

clear. they cannot get logs. now we just saw 100 montanans lose their job was done if you look at that map, there is 700,000 acres of suitable timber for harvest we could get to in the national forests. that is the color. that is all within 100 miles of that operation. despite the hard work of those force is not anywhere at can and should be. arelatest mill closings deeply unfortunate. they're also not surprising. over the past generation, since i was a kid growing up, we lost two thirds of our mills. we had over 30 when i was a kid. we are down to 10. here is one more to put on the list. we have lost 40% of our product

was of irony as we talk about these job losses and go into other committee meetings. our counties that are surrounded by federal lands with natural resource base is no longer have a tax base to fund their schools or their teachers or their infrastructure. we have these dying communities. a family in eureka, which is in lincoln county right near where this plant closing occurred, t y ey said they describe northwest montana as poverty with a view. that is what is going on. we have had hearing after hearing as we talk about getting -- who will fix this problem and move forward. we do have some reforms. there are currently 21 projects under litigation. 13 of these were developed using

collaborative processes. recent objections filed by these fringe environmental extremist theps does not represent views of most montanans. signalingingling -- more litigation lies ahead. thisey continue to work on draft i'm convinced we can find common ground on meaningful litigation reform to expand the balance of harms protections. closing loopholes that fringe groups have exploited in the courtroom as we have seen in the cottonwood versus forest service case. those strengthen the objections process and establish an arbitration authority. can i get your commitment to me, and otherwith members of this committee towards finding consensus that can be incorporated into this emerging legislation? we are happy to work

with you on forest management. my concern about litigation is whether we can maintain a middle. litigation is a challenge. it is a big challenge in your part of the world. sen. daines: can i get your commitment to work with us to find some common ground? mr. bonnie: we are committed to work with you. understand -- sen. daines: that is not a "yes." can i get a "yes?" mr. bonnie: yes. daines: i appreciate that. when you're seeing hundreds of jobs lost because of lack of logs, something has to change here. thank you. chair murkowski: thank you. heinrich? heinrich: how we fund our forest and management is critical to communities across

the west. it is absolutely critical in many communities in new mexico a firepeak right now, continues to burn in the east mountains not far from my home in albuquerque. last week we lost 24 homes, 21 other structures that fire raced out of the mountains and into a subdivision. ands only thanks to luck favorable winds and very hard work on the ground that the structure losses numbered in the dozens not in the hundreds. and we had zero loss of life, effectiveness. -- thank goodness. this overlaps and can -- includes the conservancy and the land grant. for processthe need review was completed back in

2012, the forest service didn't have the funds to pay to the actual work. it took two more years to come up with the funds to start the work. still, only 7000 of 12,000 acres of the project were treated before the fire was ignited. it is hard not to think out things might've been different if this entire area had been successfully treated and restored before the fire broke out last week. i know we all wish the forest service could approve projects faster. the fact is, project approval is only the first hurdle to get work done. without the robust and stable budget, all of the process streamlining in the world doesn't get trees cut. i look forward to hearing from our witnesses about what they have to say about the issues. we can't wait any longer to get large-scale projects implemented in new mexico, and across the west.

the fireetary bonnie, program is consuming a larger percentage of the overall forced budget every year. last year for the first time, they spent more than half the budget on the fire activities. in 2025 the fire program will consume two thirds of the budget. this cuts out money and crowds at money for non-fire related programs. road and trail maintenance, restoration, and watershed health are important. does this draft we are discussing today do anything to address the growth over time in that 10 year average? mr. bonnie: no it doesn't. it just addresses the first problem. : if we fix that but don't fix growth in the 10 year average and don't take into account the continued changes

we're seeing in climate what does that mean for the non-fire programs? mr. bonnie: as you point out the biggest impediment right now to the forest service getting more work done is a lack of capacity. 39% fewer employees across the agency versus fireside of the organization for it is affecting everything. to your specific point on restoration, if we want to get more work done we have to solve this problem. we have to figure this out post up with projects all over new mexico where the community has come to a generalized consensus about what needs to be done. the relationships the forest service are positive. whate generally agree on needs to be done. oftentimes much of the planning has been done. we cannot get the funding because we are spending it all on fire fighting. we have to find a way to move

that back over time. before my time expires i want to ask you about the ponderosa pilot project. that describes eligible projects as hazardous fuel reduction project. would that include prescribed fires as well as mechanical? or do we need to clarify that? thinirst wave, you mechanically. that has a certain costs. the second wave, hopefully you maintain that at a much lower cost. mr. bonnie: we would read that it does include that. but clarification would be welcome. sen. heinrich: it looks like my time is expiring. chair murkowski: thank you. wyden: let me commend you and the bipartisan leadership or all of the efforts that went into the draft. this is not an easy lesson

i very much appreciate -- i do indeed. ending the plague of fire borrowing is now the longest running battle since the trojan war. it is time to bring this to an end. madam chair, i know this is unorthodox, i want to get a history on this on behalf of -- the two of us have worked together on this with you. our proposal to end fire borrowing has the support of 258 organizations. given the history on this, especially appreciate your desire to get this done before the next fire season. advancing that effort, we would like to put into the record that 11 of us entered into this a year ago. we said we would get it done.

to your credit you picked up on a proposition. now was clearly the time. are i want to make sure we clear on the major issue with respect to the mix of ending management.ng and the chair and i have talked about this often. i have been supportive of the efforts. the concern is, if you take on too many management issues, you will ntot end fire borrowing. that has been the history. the chair and ranking member on our side are saying here is where we would like to begin the discussion. we want to make sure we end up getting something done. we want to get something done. the chair and i have talked about getting something done that is also a bicameral effort.

it broke down. on the fire borrowing issue, i ont to make sure we're clear the administration's position. i believe the administration believes that to deal with fire --rowing, you have to fgreeze i use that word specifically -- spent the amount of money on fighting fire on a 10 year average. if you don't have a freeze, or something that resembles a budget control, we will not get this done. do you support the concept of a freeze? mr. bonnie: yes. we talk about the freeze in the 70% as well to do exactly what you're talking about. sen. wyden: how about your colleague? what is his view? mr. rice: i am in the same

place. the administrations proposal of 70% and looking at the 1% of fires and categorizing them as catastrophic wildfire and focusing on that element will give us the flexibility to focus .n landscape restoration of sen. wyden: again, that is your take on what we need to do to fix fire borrowing. i supportated, management as well. clearly, management is a central part of this. it will certainly be essential part of getting any kind of agreement. , what are the bipartisan opportunities for management reforms in your view? when the chair and ranking member with these discussions -- we will be working with you on

this. we want to get it done this time. what other management reforms that you can support in those discussions echo --? -- mr. bonnie: they require collaboration and environmental safeguards. using that as a basis and looking for things to use your thinking, something we can get done. there is common ground that we can find for people in the conservation community, and elsewhere. wyden: can you get with us the desk get us the specifics of what management reforms the administration would support? in addition to the efforts to and the