, so we are going to have to try to be practical about this, this andiscriminatory capricious. host: yesterday we had there is no other public service -- servant that has to

appear before a -- even with freddie gray, the police didn't have to give a statement for 10 days. with the understanding that we -- what i think will come forth from the obama thenistration, will come on democratic platform is a call for a national use of four standard that both explicitly force ar makes deadly use of last resort. host: what is your reaction to that? stop: when we need to getting to our want to be, and the fact is in america today we of themajor issue,

police being risk averse and not engaging. dois harder to get police to recruiting, because people don't want to take this job. then there are people who would never ever do the job, don't think the job is necessary, think that all policing is jim crow. that's an absurd conversation. host: guest: one person asked me what the real issues are in the city of philadelphia that you have to navigate without being at a certain place politically and ideologically. host: what do you think of any of the reforms that was proposed just now. you agree with any of them? or do you think of a police officer's can initiate these types of reforms?

, this will camera's change police culture and in many ways, a good way. in dallas before these events, there was recognition that the up 8%.rate has gone the president of the black police officers association in dallas said before these events that the chief was interfering with the cost being able to do their job. we have to watch the ideology, when it police officer choose force it is part of their job. we would like them to do at a minimum amount of time. when they are using a body camera they are exposed in a civil and criminal matter. now they are worried about their physical safety and safety of others.

the secondary thought is civil lawsuits, being just -- discipline, and demonize. this has a real impact to this does not connect. in a city like chicago this is a real issue where police say we get there while we get there. ,n cities like detroit milwaukee, you are police response times of 60 minutes. that means you are probably going to have less involved -- officer-involved shooting's, but less officer involvement overall. we have to make decisions. honest decisions and fair and humane decisions about these trade-offs. we have to acknowledge our trade-offs and knowledge that. host: tammy from carlsbad, new mexico. i can appreciate all of the comments we have heard. i hope we can take something away from each of these.

i agree that there is a problem of heightened fear, being that we also cops have to put ourselves and the other person's position. our culture is changing daily. about me,always be me, me. we have to move forward. if we do not move forward we will break our society down. we will no longer respect anything of the other. what i have seen in dallas yesterday is so upsetting. first and four masked what i took from that was the cops continuous protection of the protesters. thate peaceful protesters did not create what happened yesterday. host: what's your reaction eugene? guest: well the mental health

crisis, person who has access to this kind of a weapon. are demonizing on the one hand, the president you .emonize black lies matter on the other side of this conversation, this moral equivalent argument that police shootings that are legally justified our awful and may not be necessary but will turn out to be legally justified. we can talk about how hard it is to change with the least do, but to equate that with the assassination of a police officer, that is irresponsible extremist rhetoric. unhinged people are across the political spectrum. they hear this. they act on this. if you see -- you should see some of the stuff that is written in social media. i can't be the only one that reads this stuff and hopes there

are not real people writing the start. they are real people, sadly. host: let's switch topics and talk about the way the sniper was killed ultimately during that awful event. using a robot? in usa today it says one dallas police detonated a bomb robot thursday night to take down a sniper suspect, it was believed to be the first time the robot was used to kill a human being and the united states. what do you think about this particular tactic? think this through with the rest of us and try to figure out what should have happened here. , the idea of ay nonviolent fleeing felon cannot be shot. this would be the highest and most serious situation by

violent fleeing felon should this person remain at large and be able to make his way, i guess he was cornered. most states in america, the police would have a right to use deadly force to terminate his life. he had spoken about leaving .ther ied's in the area this was a fact-based announces. erroneous, the whole idea of conspiracy theories. let's get factual, let's get real. this, there is an idea of how much to protect the country. this is a cottage industry, a critique of the way the country is protected. we need affirmative advice on what the police should do in situations where, for example,

they use -- they affect person for the license and a person sells they are not giving them their license. was an unusual tool that was used by police. is this something we may see more than what are area thoughts about the decision to use it specifically. it demonstrates that no two situations are exactly alike. we have never had a situation like this before. the notable thing about this, this guy wearing body armor. the last time that happened that i'm aware of was in 1994 in los angeles. after that happened, there was a conversation about policing would have to change, because this could happen on a regular basis. the particular event, a mass

murderer wearing body armor taking on police, that had not been repeated. putting a lot of time into figuring out whether we have to do this again. the likelihood the next kind of issue -- if you look at all of these issues, mass shootings, school shootings, terrorist attacks, they are all qualitatively different. the police are making it up as they go along. it's hard to be ready for everything. robert, calling from los angeles, good morning. you are i'm with eugene o'donnell. guest: i think a lot of your colors colors -- callers still want to look at the big issue at least. they don't want to look at the reality that things happen to black people. police,s the

[indiscernible] i think it is more bad cops than good cops. becauseon i say that is when they see bad cops do something, they don't report them. they will go right is full -- behind them and back them up. they should be penalized for that. eugene o'donnell respond. guest: the political system has failed. it is an indictment of the political system that we have a situation now where we are going to have a to have a big conversation revolved around frontline police people. the truth is the police are in conflict with people and their job is adversarial. every time the legislature passes laws, that puts the police in direct conflict with people.

if you going to a community, this is a complicated conversation. you go to community meetings, people are asking the police be more involved, more proactive. we are going to try to hear everybody when the police are involved and telling people sometimes to do things or not to do things, and making enemies. how do you reconcile those issues is not an easy thing to do. acrosseople again the the political spectrum, all said that they understand that people of color here if they are treated differently by the criminal justice system, starting with interaction with police. what is your reaction to that. guest: the pace of reform has been glacial, and the leadership has been wanting. because it is a difficult topic, you have in some cases people

reducing this to, encouraging people to fight and -- fight with the police, film the police, this is not a solution to the lasting political change. when you try to fashion mental healthge, reform, prison reform, this is not an easy thing to do. you are making judgments. this is where there has been political failure because that requires political current to say for these kinds of issues we are not going to use prison. we will not use still. that means that some people may be in communities that and up doing seriously bad things. we need political people. i have heard a nonstop partisan debating society in the last two years over this, where is the last thing political reform. issues, in fairness we

do have mental health reform, have funding under obamacare. new york mayor deblasio has put some money into this. we need earlier intervention for people that are troubled. we need to find ways not to incarcerate. we cannot do what is happening right now because we are saying the criminal justice system is racist and flawed, we would just shut it down and not have it operate. many cities we have people shooting and shooting again and they are not being caught. more than half the people committing murder are not being brought to justice. on up next jasper from bayville, new jersey. caller: good morning. i just wanted to say that i isnk that the real issue where everything is coming from. ,he interest is not on america

our country is more concerned about the world and policing the world and the focus is in on the people. i think that's really where you are coming from. these are unpredictable side effects and reactions to all that. the people are not interested in changing the culture. host: what's your reaction? out howe have to figure to be colorblind once and for all to the greatest extent that we can. we have to see these issues and , peoplelike a person

will always be susceptible to go to your corner -- but most people as a police officer prosecutor in the community, most people are reasonable. the police get a lot of leeway when they make mistakes. it is malicious racism and people object. we can fix that and do better. we can absolutely do better. to eugenere talking mcdonald, a former nypd police officer and a senior prosecutor in brooklyn, new york. up next we have alan calling from eastern maryland. good morning. caller: good morning. i would like to say thank you. i want to find out how we start to rebuild community relations with the urban

community and the police. first of all, the police used their weight to suppress the urban community. to me, that should not be so. until you recognize the man is a , i think we are still going to have this problem in america and how do we get to the root of it to say enough is enough, let's level the playing field here and respect a man is a man. any response? letter yesterday from philadelphia, mayors take on tough things and try to fix them. he was talking yesterday about the complexity of fixing these things. in many ways this is upside down. what he said yesterday as we can simultaneously fix the bottom

and a top. a lot of this conversation is emotional, the visceral. frontline cops at the end of the day take direction. they are quasimilitary people. if you tell them clearly to do them or not to do them. what is lacking is local elected, citywide elected officials being a fault -- involved on the ground, trying .o figure out solutions the conversations in the last couple of years has been about police overreaction, understand however that there is another , there the conversation is a large number of people who feel disorder, they feel their communities are not safe. people.hard on minority there was an incident this week one of the shootings won't knock chicago, a mass

at i have to get out of chicago, it is too dangerous. these are the issues that are real that we have to confront. hundreds of thousands of people have left inner cities around the country. host: kevin from staten island, new york. caller: good morning c-span. thank you for this program. i take exception with your statement that nobody wants the police officer job. many people in new york city that there is a long waiting list and has been for years of people who have not only competed for the job but are waiting on a list to be hired. and more don't make it than do make it. but that's just a comment.

my question to you is this. it's about police culture. it is about the arrest of the mailman in brooklyn. you made a comment that body camera's would not be embraced by the police officers when they use it. that the police officers when they approach greg , the fact that their behavior being filmed and they knew that told you everything about the culture within the new york city police department. they did not care. again, it's not an argument that police jobs are -- the new york city police department in 2014 the last time i looked at the number took 1000 people applied. it takes 15 people to get one hired.

that is a very small number. in other parts of the country, you can't even require any college requirements because nobody wants to take the job. city after city cannot hire, detroit, they cannot get people to do the job. this is an issue that is more andsing, more prevalent fixable than the deadly force issues that get attention. the police got into it verbal altercation with someone, and ended up arresting him. that is something we have to fix. ordinary interactions between the police are often question. that is six civil. .hat is not forgivable

that is something that has to be fixed. when people go up to the police, law abiding people that are having ordinary interactions how they often come away feeling that they have been hard done by. that should be fixed. you think that this is a crack response to what we see this week? cant: it's something we talk about together as a country. the do you do when you have fbi issuing a notice in louisiana that there are credible threats against the police. there is several states were that is the case. we are not any longer stipulating that people can be driven to do arrangement.

we had it happen were two new york city cops are killed. we had it happen here were five police officers were killed. that is a reality. should this change the entire face of policing? no. the cops that are out there and hopefully cops listening today, you know what your colleagues do. you have seen the police work at their finest. you have seen some bad things, too. to understandt most people are reasonable, reachable, recognizable service that people do. policing is still one of the , a 60% approval rating. next we have dn a calling in from evansville, indiana. you are on with eugene o'donnell. say that went to should have placement -- i was born in 1964, i was in pomona,

california. there was a horrible riot. teacher was black and i don't she handled it. we didn't get our parents called, we didn't have a policeman that came to the school. if we started in the school -- what i'm hearing is it is starting in the homes with the children being taught it to early. they need to be taught to trust others in the community. i feel like this is full circle also. what are they doing to our economics only start these -- our family moved out of pomona. we had a business. my parents felt that me and my sister were in danger. also, someone had jumped a brick wall with a gun and shot her father in the head. what they are doing is not

making progress. i feel so sick in my heart to see everyone shooting each other . we are still backward from where we were in my childhood. guest: respectfully, we can all have different opinions. i have seen this country transformed for the better. i see it on a trajectory to be improved even more. exceptions we have an african-american president. i think what we are seeing in some cases is frustration. i work for the first ever caring american mayor of new york city, david diggins. , that he acknowledge can change things. these are difficult albums. is that thereues has been a fallback, not only in the black and white community, among working-class people.

fewer jobs that are living wage jobs, fewer jobs that have a future and pensions. these are real issues and frustration. that's why people want to engage in the circular conversations that go nowhere. how do we fix these issues needs to be the conversations. we don't to be creating a fear factor. the country is safer generally crime has been reduced. new york city has an 80% reduction in crime. we cannot take one shooting, one event and get hysterical about it. we have to be reasoned and measured and data-driven. host: leo from miami. caller: hello. i have sued the police department here in the city five times in state in federal court for a police brutality, kicking

my door down without a search warrant. they settled out of time -- out-of-court two times. four times i sued per se, without an attorney, one time i had an attorney. i homeowner. u.s.mily has been in the over 300 years. i think it is a shame, i think the danger is 10 times greater than isis. all my life i have seen this. how much do we take? respectfully, we have legitimate grievances and conversations but we have to be very careful. the police departments in the country are either scary, and

probably be shuttered. they are oval loop racists -- overtly rapist -- racists. i am in new york city, there are people saying police department are killing people on a asus. it is not true. case. it with a road rage rare, the police officer's in the city use deadly force and the person is armed and very believed. the person needs to corroborate the account. in the mind of people that will not stop them. police areell you killing people. we have to get our facts together and do real reform. eugene o'donnell, lecture

.t the criminal of justice thank you for joining us today. to axt we will be talking georgetown law professor and a formal federal prosecutor with his take on this weeks events. >> on american history tv c-span3 one -- this afternoon . members that you need to be wary genrest either john or serve to be self-serving to a degree and most of these people will not want to disclose too much.

historians talk about the techniques used to gather intelligence dating back to the cold war and how that has changed since 9/11. an examination of race relations in post civil war memphis. >> this is it, it really is happening. a full black uprising and i panicked. men armed with pistols and clubs formed spontaneously downtown, marched to the scene of the shootout, and began shooting, beating every black person they could find. riots that resulted in the massacre of dozens of african-american people. 9:00, walterre isaacson offers an argument on benjamin franklin's innovation networking methods and passion for science. smalliew was that

businesses and startups would be the backbone of a new economy. and indeed one of the things that his groups did is the -- apron club where they made a set of rules on how to be a good startup entrepreneur and an innovator. >> sunday morning at 10:00 a road to the white house rewind. >> in the music of our children, we are told to everything there to everyon and a time purpose under heaven. for america, the a time has come at last. you know that every politician's promise has a price. the taxpayer pays the bills. the american people are not willing to be taken in by any scheme by government gives money hand and takes it away with the other. >> the 1972 republican and

democratic republican convention with richard mixing -- richard .ixon accepting the nomination for a complete schedule the two c-span.org. host: washington journal continues. host: joining us now is paul georgetown university law center, a professor there. also the author of let's get free. as we continue to discuss the events of this week. thank you for joining us today. what is your reaction from the things that happened play it out from louisiana and missouri this week? guest: it started with horrific images of them african-american men doing everything the police told them to do and still being .hot dead at point length range

every american, every person of goodwill needs to be outraged about that. they need to be focused on what we can do to make sure that police control all communities fairly and safely. then, at the end of the week, we saw a madman target police , another episode of gun violence, this time not rather bysored, but the gun violence. ill willn, somebody's gives access to these weapons, he was dripping with bullets. were pouring out of his pockets in dallas. and he targets police officers. the weight we saw just a few weeks ago the latino and lgbt community were targeted in orlando.

earlier we saw first graders targeted and sandy hook. if this moment doesn't lead us to change, i don't know what will. talk about what that change might look like and what keeps happening. first, with respect to black people being shot by police. why is that happening? guest: the sad thing is, there , it'st more shootings just because of the pervasiveness of cell phones and other kinds of video we are seeing a lot more. have beenericans reporting these stories for decades. that the police treat us differently than they do other communities, and that they are quicker on the draw. what these videos provide is corroborating evidence of what people have been saying all along turns out to be true. then the question is, what can

we do to move forward to prevent all of these people from having their lives tragically cut short. the president after the events , therguson in baltimore eric garner case in staten island last year, put together a blue-ribbon commission. it was chaired by police chief. they came up with a number of ,ery effective recommendations things that have been proven to help the police do their job better. the problem is that these not bindingons are on local police departments. there are 18,000 police departments in the united states. foring about requirements physical or mental or emotional competency, no criteria about qualifications. that has to change.

as a president he can use his power to make these apartments follow these recommendations about how to patrol, i think that would be a powerful response to the strategy. we are talking to paul butler, professor at georgetown law center. about the events of this week and some of the responses that we may see from that. talking about the dallas incident, we have someone who said he was motivated by what he heard from back -- black lives matter, by a desire to kill white people, white cops. fear thatjustified this ongoing discussion might put police in danger? guest: not at all. we know first of all that the shooter in dallas is not part of the black lives matter movement.

we know he couldn't be. like all of the great civil rights movements of our day, the black lives matter movement is a nonviolent movement. it is a movement against gun violence. the concern is there is too much by thelence, especially police against african-americans, that our lifestyle count as much as anyone else. to think that there is nonviolent movement, this movement against gun violence can somehow inspire gun violence is ludicrous. who are politicians trying to jump on this case because they don't like this focus of criminal justice reform , they want to win political a civil rightsng movement. martin luther king and his nonviolent movement inspired violence, white backlash and

racism. the end of the day, it is true about the american people. the american people, sometimes it takes us a while. but we get it right. we understand that civil rights is about all of the people. about making our country more inclusive, about equal justice under the law. ultimately that benefits everybody. host: we are continuing our discussion about this week's events with paul butler. anthony from st. paul, minnesota. good morning. caller: good morning. i am -- would like to recommend is that for been instituted recently held an event to talk about disparity in the criminal justice system. they focused on -- in minnesota.

it might help to assist with the perspective what really is the what -- black lives matter movement, that leads to several disagreement for people thinking that it is focusing -- we need attention, we need power, but they are not getting is what i'm trying to say. that is a lack of jobs, a lack of quality education. guest: i think anthony's comment is very astute. president obama when he made his about the wednesday tragedies in louisiana and minnesota, he talked about police and he talked about criminal justice reform. at the end he said something

that was crucial. he said we have to look into the neighborhoods and communities of color. when people are shut out from the american dream for years, these are communities that have subsidized housing, feeling like the police are not protecting them in the way they are of them americans. but there are other deprivations as well in health care and employment. president obama says we cannot just think about the police. we have to think about ways to improve the outcomes of everybody of all sectors. i think anthony is exactly right. we can't talk about police and criminal justice reform without thinking about all of the other kinds of ways african americans and latinos feel shut out and a product of opportunities. host: let's take a look at some of the comments you were talking

about from president obama on thursday. [video clip] obama: all of us as americans should be troubled by these shootings because these are not isolated incidents. of a broaderematic set of racial disparities that exist in our criminal justice system. i just want to give people a few statistics to try to put in rawext why emotions are so around these issues. according to various studies, not just one, but a wide range of studies carried out over a number of years, african americans are 30% more likely than whites to be pulled over. africaning pulled over, americans and hispanics are three times more likely to be searched. americans african

were shot by police at more than twice the rate of whites. african americans are arrested at twice the rate of whites. african american defendants are 75% more likely to be charged with offenses carrying mandatory minimums. they receive sentences that are almost 10% longer than comparable whites arrested for the same crime. up, thedd it all african american and hispanic population who make up only 30% of the general population make up more than half of the incarcerated population. int: in response to that, today's "wall street journal" on its opinion page, it gives a counter view. racial disparities exist, but one may ask why on friday after the dallas murders

did the city police chief was black wonder out loud about support for people on law-enforcement's frontline? he said we don't feel much support most days, chief brown said. let's not make today most days. and those like him and law-enforcement think they don't get much support, it is because they don't until cops are dead. and then, as always, come the official condolences. do you agree with that? guest: i think when public service does their job well, citizen support them. when they don't, citizens, taxpayers a right to be concerned. in the district of columbia, we used to have a problem with department of motor vehicles. when you went, you had to wait in line for hours. beenhe response to have "we need support from citizens,

the response was is there a way to serve citizens more effectively? they came up with one of those ways. one of the ways i love is i can go online and look at video to see how long the wait is, how many people are waiting. that is a creative response. that is a response that serves the taxpayers. we need police departments to think more proactively about ways they can better serve citizens. when african americans and latinos have these concerns about whether we are as safe as other communities, we are not crazy for thinking that. congressman newt gingrich said a couple of days ago that a lot of white people just don't get it. they don't understand the concerns among african americans. but if they were to walk in our shoes, they would get it. host: next, we have james calling in from mississippi. james, you are on with paul butler. caller: good morning, everybody.

i wanted to ask you a question. listen to me first, please. it is very important. before this incident happened, the three incidents, right things happened, we had an investigation. i am connecting the dots. the investigation of ms. clinton running for president. they had an investigation about some things they accused her of doing. the system was working. they said we are going to be fair. but when this man came on, and this is connected to the police and the rights of you -- the police doing things. they found evidence she may have violated some things. mind,d in her conscious she did not know anything. they went all the way down and showed inconsistencies with this particular case. the democrats was fighting for

her. the republicans, i don't know what they were doing, but this man that did the investigation -- in this goes down the line to the police departments, to any other organization. if any other organization would have had this type of issue going on with a policeman or whatever, those issues would have come up. ablere those politicians to get away with certain things and they make excuses for them? and they tell us donald trump is wrong, and all these other people. it is higher than that. it is bigger than this. host: let's give paul butler a chance to respond to you. guest: i think when the f.b.i. director gave a press conference and testified before the house about his decision not to recommend charges against

secretary clinton, that was a law-enforcement transparency and accountability. i used to be a prosecutor. prosecutors have a lot of discretion about who they bring charges against. but typically, prosecutors don't say anything about how they make those decisions. from the director on thursday was what he was thinking and why he decided not to bring charges. maybe you can agree with him or disagree with him, but at least we know. if we think about the statistics we heard earlier from president disparitiesthe race in criminal justice, there is a lot we don't know. we know for drug crimes, for example, african americans don't commit those more than any other group.

about 13% of people commit drug crimes. but if you look at was locked up for those crimes, 60% are black. 13% of people who do the crime, 60% of people do the crime. why is that? it is about decisions police are making and prosecutors are making, but they don't explain themselves. we don't know why. again, count ability, transparency. some people get it, some people don't. host: next, we have sam, calling in from little rock, arkansas. he is a retired officer. you are on with paul butler. good morning. caller: good morning. i have a few comments and i will let him speak afterwards. i have got over 30 years in law enforcement in washington, d.c., and little rock, arkansas. like when you go into the areas where the high crime it is a lot of

government housing and people are packed together, but it is hard to get information from people in those areas that actually will help law enforcement officers get rid of the people causing the crime in that area. the people in those areas no has got the guns. they know who is doing the shooting or robbing. into affluent, white areas, and people will talk freely about who has got the guns and who is doing the crime and what not. even as children to distrust the police. that is 90% of the problem. host: let's let paul butler respond to that. guest: you know, in communities of color, there is a breakdown in confidence and trust with the police. again, if you look at the images

a cop pulls over and african american driver with his girlfriend in the front seat, four-year-old little girl in the back seat. and the cop says give me a license and registration. the young man says ok, i want you to know i have a gun. but you asked me to get it, so i will do it. later, the man is shot four times at point-blank range. it is not surprising people don't trust the police in all communities. we have to ask, how can the police do their jobs better? the caller is right. there are situations in which communities feel they need to be safer. they need the kind of protection the police officers are supposed to give those communities. but they just don't have any confidence that the police are going to treat those communities fairly. so the question is, how can police do their jobs better to

gain the confidence and respect of all citizens? especially for crimes like the caller was talking about, for serious crimes like homicide. about a wi-fi though when you think about police work 5-0 when youawaii think about police work and cops. think about "law and order." they talk to people. that is how the cops make their cases, including homicide cases. people don't want to talk to the police because they don't trust them. that is a problem. the caller is right. that is not going to make neighborhoods or family safer. so cops have to understand that this movement for police reform gainout ways the cops can the confidence of their community. if they do that, people will want to cooperate with the

police. and that will make everybody safer. host: we are talking about confidence. one of the results of the shootings has been requests by local officials to have the department of justice investigate, federal officials investigate the incidence. "the baltimore sun" said in an editorial that the notion federal government can secure criminal convictions were local officials cannot or don't even try is belied by the record. host: does that make the perception of a lack of fairness worse? guest: just because the department has not brought charges in some of the

high-profile cases does not mean it could not have. there are a lot of people who are disappointed there were not charges in ferguson, and so far we have not seen charges in staten island in the eric garner case. although they have not made their decision yet, so maybe the apartment will bring charges there. where the department of justice has been more proactive is not so much in criminal prosecutions of officers but federal takeovers of local police departments. we have seen that in ferguson in response to the michael brown killing. if we think about different ways of responding to police violence against citizens, criminal prosecutions are difficult. they are not impossible. certainly, juries are willing to find cops guilty when they cross the line. but that is tough. some people are looking more to

the civil remedy of having the department of justice come in, impose all these requirements on police officers, and at least in the short-term, a lot of those departments improve. they don't use unnecessary force against citizens as much as they used to when they make stops. they are more effective because they are not focused on race. they are focused on things that are actually suspicious. when we look at what the federal government can do, there is a range of responses. it is not either/or. it is all of them. next, we have martin calling in from new port richey, florida. when the police stop you, immediately it is license and insurance. you say, what did i do? why did you stop me? immediately, he is going to turn to intimidation.

"i said license and insurance." well, why did you stop me? will not tell you. i have a right to know why he stopped me. he is assuming that because i stand up for my rights, before i know it, he is going to have me out of the car. there are going to be four squad cars there, half a dozen police, and they are bullies. they are bullies and thugs. they try to enforce the law with intimidation. host: let's let paul butler respond. president obama said the vast majority of police officers are doing their jobs effectively. i am not sure everybody in communities of color would agree with that. i do have a lot of friends who are cops. the joby, they go into with the idea they want to help the communities. most of my friends are cops happen to be african american.

they say they feel a special responsibility to keep that community safe because they feel did not receive the services they should have when these cops were growing up. i think a lot of cops want to do the right thing. i think the caller is right. some police officers feel the way to do their job is to humiliate citizens and punish them for exercising their constitutional rights. for example, if the police are asking if you will consent to a search of your car, it is your constitutional right to say no. but certainly, there are people who feel if they exercise those rights, the cops are going to take it out against them. that is not helpful when we think about this crisis and legitimacy of police officers and the way they patrol communities of color. host: next, we have kathleen calling in from los angeles. you are on with paul butler. caller: good morning.

i have two points. i hope i can make them without you disconnecting me. host: the faster you make them, the more likely that is. caller: i will talk really fast. your previous guest did not talk about the politics of crime. during the turn-of-the-century, there were irish gangs. how did they saw that? we are not talking about reform. we are talking about radical change big the next point is black politicians and black blackers have failed america. we are talking about 12 million. donald trump talked about the is 59% unemployment with young black men. that is what donald trump said. black leaders in the democratic party never talk about illegal immigrants replacing the black community. in fact, hillary clinton wants to make these illegal immigrants legal. host: what is your reaction to that? guest: we think about the

politics of crime, for so long that politics has been driven by emotion and fear, especially fear of african american people. broader things like the war on drugs and mass incarceration. one thing i am hoping comes from this movement for civil rights is that politics changes. we have already seen some evidence of that on the hill not far from where we are sitting. there is bipartisan support for criminal justice reform bill. that is some reason to be , that slowly the politics is changing. there has been a lot of talk this week about how this is not a moment for divisiveness. latinos areler says taking away african american jobs, i think we have to unpack that and be thoughtful about the

beef african americans have against immigrants, whether it is against people from places like mexico who have been here for a long time, who want to remain in the country, and who are working in jobs that often pay lower than the minimum wage. if we think about the various ways african american people are vulnerable to violence and vulnerable to all kinds of selective prosecution and , we have lower life expectancies than other groups. i don't think it is fair to blame our latino friends or immigrant friends. they are not really the cause of the extraordinary disparities that black people undergo in this country. host: next, we have kathleen calling from dayton, ohio. you are on with professor paul butler. caller: thank you, professor

butler. you make so many great points. as well aso'neill the man from black lives matter. thank you for bringing these guests on. a briefing on the previous caller laming illegal immigrants and setting people against each other. on that issue, we seldom see people over decades who have been hiring illegal immigrants who are after cheap labor in both parties. issue of something mr. o'neill said, he said we need to be reason-measured and data-driven. thank you for the videos and cameras to bring these brutal murders. i know police officers are in very tough positions. i don't believe they get paid enough generally. prosecution breaks my heart. it is so pathetic we are

watching a young man in cleveland, a kid, be mowed down in a park. it was in seconds of officers arriving. we see the gentleman in new york city taken down. it looked like a pack of wolves. it was a large man for selling cigarettes on the street or something. on thepolice officers playing field of our criminal justice system not being delivered in regard to police officers, it is extremely disturbing. host: let's let paul butler respond. guest: one of the issues is police training. the caller is right. if you look at what happened with the tamir rice case in cleveland where there was a little boy playing in the park with a toy gun, and the cops get a call. they don't know it is a toy gun. what do they do?

boy.roll up on the literally, the cop car has not stopped moving before the police jumped out and gunned the little boy down. we saw a similar response in baton rouge where the police get a call that there is somebody with a gun outside of a convenience store. the same thing. the cops roll up on the guy. they pushing against the carpet seconds later, he is shot dead. -- they push him against the car. seconds later, he shot dead. that is ineffective policing. every officer learns on day one in the police academy that you don't run out and voluntarily expose yourself to fire and use that as an excuse to shoot the person down. you are supposed to conceal yourself to protect yourself, and then communicate with the person. when we look at these

situations, these are deaths that did not have to happen. these are the result of negligence and either ineffective training or training of people who should not be officers. when we think about ways to prevent these kinds of tragedies in the future, we have to look at national standards. if we look at the cop responsible for the death of tamir rice, the 12-year-old boy in cleveland, he should not have been a police officer. anactually had to leave earlier department he was on because he was so ineffective. how is it people who don't have basic skills can walk around with a gun and license to kill? we have to change that. host: where talking to paul butler, professor at georgetown law center. also previously, a prosecutor with the u.s. department of justice where he worked as a special assistant to the u.s. attorney prosecuting drug and

gun cases. we are talking about this week's events in dallas and elsewhere that involve police-related shootings. next, we have william calling from houston, texas. good morning, william. caller: good morning, c-span. i come from a background of military policing and work in corporate america. i want to say most people don't realize they have a prejudice until they have an opportunity to exercise it. ,s far as economic development it is instilled in the h.r.'s of all these companies i work for now. looked like me, that is when i realized i had a prejudice. when you look around most companies, the economic background of people look like them. african americans and hispanics are not in a position to hire. therefore, we are challenged. i will say this for police officers and anyone in law enforcement. the prejudice is embedded in the come out with you -- when you

have an opportunity. case in point. i got stopped one day. they pulled me over and was really aggressive. they were not talking to me. they were talking at me. when i pulled out my i.d., they saw u.s. army retired. all of a sudden, you are good, you are all right. i questioned them as to why i was stopped. it does not matter. thank you for your service. i don't appreciate that. host: let's let paul respond. guest: with a callers is everybody is prejudiced, he is afternoon -- when the caller says everybody is prejudiced, he is echoing the f.b.i. director. he came to my school to talk about police and the way they serve communities of color. he said the same thing. everybody is a little bit racist and that includes police officers. if that is true, what do we do about it? how do we prevent the bias we

two notse officers have effect the ways they do their work? there are things we can do. i disagree with the caller when he says everybody is born that way, that it is inbred. get born with bias and prejudice against other groups. that is something you learn. host: how do you get police officers to unlearn that? is it possible? guest: it is. the department of justice under attorney general loretta lynch is requiring all law enforcement officers to undergo training about bias. the first thing you have to do is recognize you have it. we all have it. then think about, now that you know, what you can do. some of it is about not being biased, unloading at -- unlearning that.

if you are, what are ways you can not use that bias when you do you work? especially when you make crucial decisions about using deadly force, about whether you take out your gun. maybe we cannot stop every police officer from being afraid of an african american woman or african american man. but we can get them to know that when they are doing a stop of a to think i might have special concerns about african americans. maybe i will check those concerns while i make this stop. host: next, we have morgan calling in from north carolina. good morning, morgan. caller: good morning. i wanted to thank you for allowing me to be on an thank you, mr. paul butler, for giving us the knowledge you have. i'm wondering how effective it would be to use our purchasing power. if you only purchase from black-owned product's and businesses. instead of using black friday,

have a blackout year to show the power of the black race and , moneys coming from our -- host: the black community. go ahead. guest: they are doing that in baton rouge today. there is an economic boycott of businesses. what they are using is a strategy they have adopted from the civil rights movement of the 1950's and 1960's. when there was discrimination against african americans, the reality we were being treated unfairly, people like martin luther king responded where it withost effective -- businesses to hit people where it hurts the most. think about this new civil rights movement, this movement for african american lives. i think we have to think about a whole range of strategies.

part of it is focused on the police and other aspects of the criminal justice system. but if we think about that litany of deprivations and race disparities we just heard from president obama, it is true those all exist in criminal justice. wealthy also exist in inequality, educational attainment, and health care. it is going to call for a bunch of different approaches. i am focused on police. i have focused on business, unemployment. one caller mentioned it is hard for african american's and especially in folks to get jobs. some of that is justice from a nation. you think that is something that happened in the 1950's and 1960's. it is very real today. focusing on the private sector as well as the government is crucial. host: next, we have tom calling

in from spokane, washington. good morning, tom. in spokane and the last few years, there have been several incidents of questionable police shooting and killing men. i imagine the reason you don't hear about it is they were black on white men. i would also like to point out if the black community took as much time, effort, and emphasis on the black on black murders and lack of education, if they focused on those things more, there would be less of a problem. host: let's let paul butler respond to that. guest: you hear that kind of divisive commentary all the time. we heard it from people like rudy giuliani and mike bloomberg, the former mayor of new york, that this movement for

government accountability and transparency that focused on the , there's somehow something wrong about citizens expecting more from their government. i just of think it is either or. you cannot go to an african-american church without hearing of the problem of violence in our community and ways that we should come peopler to improve the from being victims of violence doers.so from being harmgoi the same things talking about earlier, ways to make communities and families whole for better health care. people focus on violence for a long time, but violence includes police violence. it includes faith conscious violence.

notoes not mean we are ultimate risk from police officers. here is the thing. when african-americans hurt ,ther of african-americans there are consequences, as they should be. when police officers hurt african-americans, there are no consequences, and that is the concern. host: next we have marcia calling in from massachusetts. it were on the line. caller: thank you for your comments. comment is that we need to take this to a different level. insurance in the police and judicial system. this is a system that has been going on since slavery. what we have to do is we as a people, we have to come together united, and we have to take responsibility to develop

businesses, to create schools. there is the internet now. we can create an online accelerated learning school system, which i am working on right now, so that we can inform and educate our people from children to adults. the to address these people that , we can talkted with them, facilitate and educate them online. but the main thing, the main thing we must do is we must to the foundations are set forth by god. host: let's let paul butler respond. paul butler: there is a lot we can learn from the african-american community about ways to effectively respond to violence, and about ways to make the government do better.

the fight has been this moral conscious. we believe when it came to helping the country understand that slavery was immoral, and that the old jim crow was immoral, and not leaders in this new effort -- now the leaders in this new effort jim crow incarceration and this crisis of policing -- i think the color is absolutely right. -- caller is absolutely right. we focus our sense of justice and morality. host: paul butler, professor of law at georgetown university. he has a new series of justice. thank you for joining us. caller: thank you for having me. -- paul butler: thank you for having me. host: we will continue to have police involved shooting conversation. but first we will talk about our

newsmakers this week, the ways and means committee chairman evan brady talked about how republicans and the administration have differing ideas about keeping u.s. companies are moving assets overseas. here is a bit of that session. [video clip] not, andt companies to america, not be forced to move overseas. how the white house is approaching that is wrong. really solution is to fix the broken tax code. a wall toto build keep u.s. companies from leaving, it keeps foreign dollars and u.s. dollars from pouring back into the local communities. the regulations they lay out, it is so complicated that in the meeting with treasury secretary of the joint tax meeting, for every answer, there were five more questions that were raised. , and is bipartisan,

this rule has huge economic consequences at home. they miss the target and overly and don't really solve it. our advice and urgency to them is, slow down. take more input. yet this right. we will work with you in a serious view if you agree with the concept of incentives to keep companies here in america. they are rushing into this regulation, and it will have long-term consequences. >> with bipartisan concern, is it ultimately the congress may weigh in with treasures -- letters to the treasury secretary? possible. it depends on who is listening. i got the sense they were dismissive of the concerns raised in the meeting. they do seem open to some small changes, but the bigger concerns that were raised by members of congress and the senate from

both parties did not seem to be resonating with them. and they kept reiterating, we want to move swiftly, keyword, on the regulation. we would rather they move correctly and accurately in this regulation. so we are putting every ,egislative option on the table because it all goes down to jobs at the local level. "nnouncer: "washington journal continues. kimberly: we are continuing with open lines with our viewers of police involved shootings or any other issues on their mind this week. amocrats can call to 2-748-2000, republicans, 202- 748-2001, independents 202-7 48-2002. say onei just want to

of the reasons i feel that -- people look at, you go back to the history of this country, [indiscernible] black african man is a dead black african man. when you have black on black crime, they say, and it is the same reason why you have police crime on black. them as worthless people who are poor, uneducated, and undeserving to live. that is why the commit this crime against them. kimberly: do you think there are any solutions for this? caller: huh? kimberly: do you have any solutions? caller: it is one that will never happen but is very simple. [indiscernible] do unto others what you would

want do unto you. this country, the only thing they think and do is practice every day, discrimination, every branch, war. happen like never cannot -- going to happen. respect your neighbors, help others, and contribute to others, that is not what is happening. kimberly: so we have sheila colling and from philadelphia. good afternoon. your calling on the democratic line, i forgot to say that. caller: i am from philadelphia. i lived through the [indiscernible] administration. and one thing i saw was terrific. and i mean horrific. the abuse that was born. and abuse, the country did not look at the abuse in

philadelphia. we were screaming about it [indiscernible]a comedy that was very popular on tv certain making jokes about philadelphia. in the police here. who instituted] programs that made the police accountable for their behavior. do we still have racist -- yes we do. it made a difference of all those cops responsible. kimberly: you think that cops are held with enough responsibility now? caller: we have different policeman, too much power. too much power. philadelphia, when these white cops started letting their own go in the white areas, it changed.

it changed. you can say this is black and white, and as long as we have this we against them attitude, this is going to continue. kimberly: ok, up next we have mike calling in from walnut port, pennsylvania on the republican line. good morning, mike. caller: good morning. i think we need to get to the root cause, which is hate. the bible tells us that unless my people are called by my name, that would be the christians, humble themselves. kimberly: whose hate do you think is causing this? lewis, thek at things he has said. it is a catalyst for hatred. it just, some people would say it is hatred coming from the conical islamists, which sara is. some people say it is the bln

group. but who is funding bln? there is a lot of money pouring in. it is not grassroots. and they are radical people. we have got to look at the root cause to find out what is hatred is coming from. kimberly: ok, up next we have rhonda from jacksonville, north carolina on the independent line . good morning, rhonda. caller: good morning. i did wanted to say that as far and trainingsons of the police officers, i know some departments, all they require is high school diploma and blet. i'd know that is not enough for a person to be eligible as a police officer and carry a gun. there is more education that is to be out there for these officers. kimberly: the me ask you this. about somearlier

police departments finding it difficult to recruit. you worry about making the standards too much of an educational requirement, postgraduate, would be enough, would hurt those efforts to recruit? caller: and i do believe that is what our but that is problem is. you get these people that do not toe the mental capacity handle what they need to learn and know about being a police officer. i have a bachelors in criminal justice, and i am working on mental health counseling. when you look at all the education that is out there that you need to know in order to be handle with society today, these police officers coming out of ,let, and a high school diploma they don't have the education. i feel like that is where the problem is. we have crisis intervention training that i feel like all police officers should be able to take or should be mandatory to take, which is educating them

about dealing with the mental health population, develop dismantled possibly -- population. so many trainers, they come out and say, oh my god, i had no idea. it gives you a whole new perspective of the mental health population. and the population in general. that yes, it will make it harder to recruit, but i just feel like a person straight out of high school with a blet, that is not -- some people might do ok. kimberly: we have vicki. all right. we lost our line for one moment while we figure out what that is about. we are going to move on to look at some of the reaction that is coming, as we noted earlier in the week, the wake of the

events. several police departments are their precautions in order to avoid situations like to today'saccording headlines. police chiefs around the country began ordering patrol officers to write in pairs on friday -- irs on friday rather than alone. after officers were killed and ambushed in dallas. washington, boston, new york, st. louis, philadelphia county. the department said, the president of the international police chiefs said that the police chiefs of wellesley, massachusetts said officers are going to have to have vigilance in each traffic stop. it can be deadly. i don't know what this means. i don't know if it means more police perpetrated, more

violence perpetrated for more law enforcement as a result of this. ok. up next, let's take another look at some of the reaction this week from the events in dallas. [video clip] >> the nation is in mourning. we are a country that is suffering. but that suffering emanates from the loss of innocent human life. innocent life whether it is at the hands of these assassins who kill police officers, or at the hands of persons who are --sented it custodial or, mustpt you will are -- we always protect innocent life. i'm a former president of the naacp, served as the judge of a

small claims justice court, and a lawyer. i assure you that people of goodwill denounce any statements that have been made with reference to the shooting of police officers. we absolutely adamantly, totally oppose anyone who would advocate shooting police officers. we totally, completely, without hesitation, reciprocation, or reservation want to make it perspicuous like clear -- ly clear what happened in dallas was beneath the standard that human beings have set to live peacefully with each other. and we want to make sure that those persons who are involved in this are prosecuted to the fullest extent that the law allows. just as the person who happens to be an innocent citizen with the taillight out, that person

had to be punished to the fullest extent of the law allows. [video clip] kenerly: up next, we have from cincinnati. caller: do we need to encourage more of our young people to become police officers, whether black or white, it does not make any difference? i think that is one of the problems. is the wholeblem issue of america's history. i say the next phase of freedom is economic freedom, economic revolution. and reparation is an issue that has been pushed to the side under 7.5 years president obama has been here. but that has systemic, why the economic base is so low. because of the fact that historically, we have worked 300 years and generationally without

any pay, and that has to be dealt with. no one is really talking about that. kimberly: let me ask you this. when you bring up issues like reparation, it creates a very, it creates a lot of budget -- controversy in the political discourse. are we at a time when we can discuss these things given the tensions that exist right now? caller: not now, but yes we do. i wrote a book called "economic revolution." it is on amazon.com. you can do it for the tax code. i figured 177 years of tax exempt status, everything else stays the same. 177 years of tax exempt status should have the balance between this. and the 177 years come from 17 seven -- 1787 to 1865 and years to 1964.ow from 1960

that is open to be dealt with. kimberly: we have detroit on the phone. caller: good morning. we talk about race, i want to say this. there is really only one race. that is the human race. i know that we come from various locations and everything, and i just want to prove that from the bible, our bases -- basic instructions. the next chapter 17, paul, the apostle paul he says, you men have asked and i ever received that in all things you are too suspicious. for as i pass by and we held your devotions, i found it altered with this inscription on it to be unknown god, who you indignantly worship. him i declare unto you, god that make the world and all things very -- therein, say that he is lord of heaven and earth, not in

temples -- kimberly: i hate to interrupt you, but how is this related to what you see happening now? caller: the point that i am saying is that there is only one race. that is the human race. the next thing he says is, and the god who made the world, he needs none of this stuff. he has made one blood, all nations of men for to dwell on the faces of the earth and has determined the times before appointed in the bounds of their habitation. kimberly: up next to have james from grundy, virginia. good morning, james. caller: thank you for having my call. god has no respect to person. he may have black, yellow, brown, red. if you love god, you have no respect a person. you love all people. on the other hand, republicans

freed the slaves, then they went to the democratic side. are leading them down the road to hell, but they still oppose the democrats. margaret my dues to rely them. she did not respect -- wanted to sterilize them. she did not have respect for work. and, we all go to heaven together. kimberly: we have kevin. he is calling in from toms river, new jersey. good morning. caller: good morning. another bear things i have heard mentioned, first of all, most police are scared. they are scared for their life, they of the children and everything to worry about. the biasedu have police were biased against black people and hispanics. biased police are scared and

dangerous. when i was growing up, i could spot in a crime it one time. i'm a white person. a cop said, hold it. and i froze. kimberly: ok, up next we have vicki. vicky is calling in from the democratic line in gainesville, texas. good morning, vicki. caller: i am glad to get on. a lot of the comments i hear from everybody are very valid. paul butler was excellent. but there is one thing i have not heard too much of, people have touched on it. a lot of the police, members of the police and military, consequently, we do have neo-nazis and clan members here and a bunch of other groups. a lot of these people make up the police force.

they are biased. there is not much mention about that, and the police should be vetted more. they should come under scrutiny. i also think that these groups should be considered terror groups, and they should be talked about, just like we talk about muslim groups. no one want to talk about that because a lot of the old klans people are neo-nazis, grandfathers, fathers, history has not been that long ago. kimberly: vicki, do you think that, what do you think could be done to move forward from that history today, or you think that is possible? the biblell i think mentioned something about six generations. yeah, i think it is possible. people have to get out and vote. vote, vote, vote.

we saw that in ferguson, missouri where the police force was deliberately, you know, arresting blacks, making them pay fines. and that supported the city. upon.y were preyed that happened in a lot of where we are preyed upon. as far as black businesses like in black wall street, every time blacks seem to get a foothold, with both feet and wiped down what we have. kimberly: ok, up next to have frank calling in from pembroke pines, florida on the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. i am so tired of hearing black and white. this country is a nation of americans. let's do away with white and black and replace it with red,

white, and blue. we are one nation, one people, one nationality under god. thank you, and think about that. kimberly: all right, up next we have jeff. the is coming in from islands. caller: i have no republican, i vote democrat whoever i like when i like. black people were sold into slavery by black people in africa. black people, the first person to own a black slave was a black person. that is history. democrats say, one set of the other. but a history lesson on that. democrats sought to keep slavery. if you are a democrat, you must be racist because you support that party. republicans freed slaves, ok? was araham lincoln

republican. all this stuff is ridiculous. black lives matter, they are just, you know, they are as racist as a gets. they will not let my people go to their meetings. that is racism, ok? to say why people are racist, black people are just as racist as white people. the news don't say that, but that is the absolute truth. and you for your time, i appreciate it. take the lessons and appreciate what is going on. kimberly: we are continuing the open lines, talking next to jeff from deerfield, illinois on the democratic line. good morning, jeff. caller: good morning. how are you kimberly: i am great. what is on your mind? caller: i want to elaborate on the key points. i think it is your intolerance with officers and killing. the tolerance and this fear comes when you look at

statistics in the united states, it shows white officers are mostly shot and killed by white assailants. figure thatou would by seeing the statistic that more white officers would be more on the alert of when they pull over a white assailants to be more vigilant. but because they are, you know, surrounded when they go home off-duty, they are around otherwise that given the --urance that i can stop give them the assurance that i can stop a white person and not feel threatened -- when it comes to african-americans, the tolerance is not there because the media, that is the on the news. they go home and still see, and it is affected by what you see on television what he even see other surroundings around caucasians, talking about different criminal activities

blacks have done. kimberly: you think there is anything that can come back that? -- combat that? caller: if the media, i saw one time on cops, the producer of cops was asked, why do you like defendantse black selling drugs, knowing that the blacks did not have the plan to bring the drugs in? why would he portray that on cops more? his response was, if i can make more money by showing them catching the wife that bring the drugs in, i would do it. but his audience want to see more blacks being arrested. at a lower level of drugs portrayed on the streets instead of the big keys that have been coming. lee.rly: up next we have

lee is calling from providence, rhode island on the independent line. good morning. caller: i had a few comments, if i could. one of the things i am waiting for, the media outlets to actually do a split screen. and he was split screen of this most -- do a split screen of the withrecent traffic stop the man that was shot in minnesota, allegedly being pulled over because he had a broken tail light. on the other screen, show how billie ruth is pulled over after of killing nine people and a church. then you see the problem comparison of what we are talking about when we talk about black lives matter. black lives matter needs to take control of the narrative and how they redefine what that term means. when you are talking about, when you have got somebody shot in the middle of the street laid out, laying in the street for five hours, that is because they

don't matter. i want to say a word police chiefs all over the country, local police chiefs. if your police officer, and you are working in massachusetts, and you see a situation where you have a row cop in minnesota -- rogue cop in minnesota or wherever, why do feel it is your response ability to get out front and defend the actions of some person you don't know? you have never worked with, you are not a part of their department? the problem is, when you have incidents of road police officer is, it -- rogue police officers -- that is really who people are speaking about, the officers in the department that should not be there -- kimberly: up next, we have don, calling from auburn, new york. good morning, don. caller: thank you for taking my call. i just want to comment, i am whitot